JMB:
Today is Monday, March 1, 2010. And I'm here in Santa Barbara in the
office of Willow Young-Friedman, who worked at the Craft and Folk Art
Museum from 1977 through 1987 and then served as a consultant [to CAFAM]
for two more years after that. And my name is Joan Benedetti. Was that
right?
WYF:
That's [it] as far as I remember it, Joan.
JMB:
OK. So, let's start at the beginning. Can you tell us where and when you
were born?
WYF:
Oh, I was born in Hanover, New Hampshire. . . .
JMB:
. . . . And do you have any siblings?
WYF:
I have two siblings: a sister--a younger sister--and younger brother.
JMB:
So you were the oldest?
WYF:
The oldest, yes.
JMB:
Well, tell us a little bit about your parents and your early childhood.
WYF:
So I was born into the beginnings of a family by two parents [Robert
Young and Louise Stubblebine], who . . . had graduated from Reed College
and [then] went to Vermont.
JMB:
That was known as a very progressive school, wasn't it?
WYF:
At that time. I think it still is.
JMB:
Yeah, I think it is, too.
WYF:
Progressive and very intellectual. And [my parents] had a dream to
create an economic cooperative in Vermont. And my father had been
involved in the . . . [conscientious objector] camp run by Lewis Mumford
and Stuart Chase before the war. [During World War II, her father
enlisted and served as fighter pilot; he was in the Air Force and was
part of the Airborne Mustang Division.] And then also before the war . .
. my father had traveled by bicycle throughout Europe and went to school
in Manchester, England at the economic cooperative school, and then
taught in Denmark for a while. So he had--his philosophy was very much
aligned with that school. And it was what inspired he and my mother to .
. . create a cooperative--economic cooperative system in Vershire,
Vermont. And he did it by teaching. He taught at Goddard [College in
Plainfield, Vermont] and [at] a little school house. And then [he]
worked at the saw mill and the maple syrup company [in Chelsea,
Vermont]. And my mother was . . . a weaver and established a weaving
cooperative. [Later, when they moved to Nantucket, she edited the
newspaper, The Nantucket Town Crier.]
JMB:
My goodness.
WYF:
So, we were all part of that endeavor until my father was in an accident
at the saw mill and he wasn't able to work. So, we left the farm in
Vermont where we [had] raised goats--and we took the goats. [They were
in Vermont from 1949 – 1954.]
JMB:
Wow, you were really ahead of your time.
WYF:
It was a different kind of a lifestyle.
JMB:
Yeah.
WYF:
But we--I remember—we moved to an island off of Cape
Cod—Nantucket--where his parents [lived] . . . and my grandfather, [who]
had a very successful business, offered my father [a place] to
recuperate. And when I used to go on the ferry when I was in high
school, after we had moved away from the island, [when] I would come
back, [people would say], "Oh, you're Bob Young's daughter. I remember
when you brought all those goats over in the back of that pickup truck."
JMB:
It sounds idyllic.
WYF:
It was beautiful to grow up in the country, to grow up with such a deep
relationship with nature, both on the farm in Vermont and then on the
island off of Cape Cod.
JMB:
And did you go to school there?
WYF:
I went to elementary school in Nantucket.
JMB:
So you were just--how old were you when you moved to Nantucket?
WYF:
We--I was . . . [five]. I was [five in 1954] when I moved to Nantucket
and . . . [ten] when I left [in 1959].
JMB:
And where did you go from there?
WYF:
And then we went to Alexandria, Virginia.
JMB:
Oh, my. That was very different.
WYF:
It was very different. It was shocking.
JMB:
And what were--it was shocking? Well, tell about that . . . .
00:05:00
WYF:
It was shocking because . . . Nantucket's an interesting, historically
interesting, place to grow up. In the 1800's, it was a boom town, of the
whaling industry. And because of the whaling industry, there was quite a
multi-cultural environment on Nantucket. There were people from Africa,
direct descendants from Africa who had gone on boats as workers . . .
and then come ashore and stayed ashore. And then there were people from
the Azores, so there were Portuguese and then Portuguese-Africans and
Africans.
And we all went to school together and lived on this little, tiny,
five-by-seven-sized island. And it was the North. So, there was a level
of tolerance that one didn't experience in the South. And even though
Virginia's on the--not quite a Southern or Northern state, it was
certainly very, very repressive. And segregation was in full swing. And
that's what I mean by shocking . . . . [Virginia was a member of the
Confederacy and was a slave-holding state during the Civil War.]
JMB:
Yes, I understand completely.
WYF:
Coming in contact with levels of poverty and degradation that I hadn't
experienced before—[yet] . . . was probably present on the island. I
don't know that there were any Portuguese or [Africans] on the Board of
Selectmen, for example, on Nantucket, but it was a little bit more
integrated and people were respectful of one another.
JMB:
And you had a diverse student population there. And how was it at the
schools [in Alexandria] that you went to?
WYF:
The schools were segregated up to a point. By the time [I was in] high
school, I think, after--I think after the Civil Rights March [in
1963]--the schools became . . . less segregated.
JMB:
Well, '64 was the Brown v. the Board of Education [decision], but of
course, it took a long time--
WYF:
It took a long time. It took a great deal of time, because anyone who
was involved in desegregating the schools was--had to endure a great
deal of collective strife. And that's hard for individual children--
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
--to manage, whether they're in high school or not.
JMB:
What brought your parents to Virginia?
WYF:
My father seguéd his work from working to establish cooperatives and
working in a rural environment, to having a government job that would
allow him to move off-island, number one, and then around the country as
needed.
JMB:
Well, that is understandable--and so how long were you in school in
Virginia?
WYF:
In Virginia . . . I think, . . . [Eight] years [1959-1967].
JMB:
All through high school?
WYF:
. . . . [Actually, I left high school and moved to New York City with a
friend.]
JMB:
Well, I was going to ask you how your interest in art and world cultures
got started, but I guess I would assume that it got started a little bit
in Nantucket. But [can] you tell us?
WYF:
I think it's something that's innate. I think it is--for me. I think
that--people have innate interests almost. And I remember going to the
beach, we spent a lot of time going to . . . [the] Children's Beach in
Nantucket. And it was near something called the White Elephant, which
was a very exclusive hotel. And, of course, all sorts of people would
come in on beautiful boats and park their boat and then stay over at the
White Elephant. And I remember there was a beautiful Indian
woman--American Indian woman--who was an actress with her baby on the
beach. And the baby had a beaded loincloth. And [the woman] . . . had
very, very, very long hair, and she was so exotic. And I remember going
. . . [to her] and just sitting and staring at her baby and talking with
her, or meeting other people. There was another actress that came on the
beach who was so glamorous, and I thought, "How strange that someone
would wear makeup to the beach?" You know, but it was an opportunity to
come in contact with others, you know, those others--mostly the
tourists--that came to the island during the summer.
JMB:
People that were different from the--
WYF:
People that were different in whatever way.
JMB:
Yeah.
WYF:
Well, during high school, I studied art at the [Corcoran School of the
Arts and Design]. They had Saturday art classes. So, I would go in and
then afterwards--
JMB:
Now that was--where was that?
WYF:
Washington, D.C. . . . So, I was in high school in Alexandria and it was
. . . an easy half-hour trip--
JMB:
Of course.
WYF:
--into D.C.
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
There was that. I also--I was a member of the Unitarian Church. My
parents were very active in the church. And in probably 1961 or 1962,
each summer [the church] hosted the Congress on Racial Equality
[C.O.R.E.].
JMB:
Oh, my goodness.
WYF:
So, there were--I as a young girl would go serve the meals [to the
attendees].
JMB:
Wow.
WYF:
So [we] were asked to volunteer and, of course, I was always interested
in something different, so--
JMB:
And that was when there was a lot of [civil rights] activity.
00:10:00
WYF:
There was a lot of activity and it was
[a time of] encountering people of color who were so well-educated and
articulate, and reasonable and thoughtful. And their discourse and
their--their communications were so impressive. And I was able to just
be around that and take it in and listen. So that by the time the March
on Washington happened in '63, I had been asked to babysit and I told
people I wasn't going to babysit. And I told my mother that I had heard
that there were buses leaving from the church--and that I had signed up
and I was going to the march. And I did. I think now how--
JMB:
What a great thing.
WYF:
Oh, it was so beautiful. It was extraordinary, extraordinary. The bus,
when I got off the bus, the bus driver said, "See that tree, and see
that other tree and see this bus? This is where I'm to be at the end.
This is where you're going to find me. I'll be right here." And I got
off and I just walked. I walked the length of the reflecting pool and
people--were you there?
JMB:
No. No.
WYF:
People were lying on blankets.
JMB:
I knew about it, but--
WYF:
Families. Families--black people, white people, Asians, lying on
blankets picnicking. You had to walk on people's blankets. It was just
wall-to-wall.
JMB:
Solid.
WYF:
Solid people and [an] extraordinary experience. And then of course, to
hear [Martin Luther] King and--
JMB:
How close were you able to get to the speakers?
WYF:
I was close. I went to Washington this last summer and walked with a
friend who had never been there. And we walked the reflecting pool. And
I figure that I was--so close that I could see King easily. . . . Now
the road is blocked off--one can't traverse the road that circles the
Lincoln Memorial.
JMB:
Oh, I didn't know.
WYF:
But at the time, it was trafficked. And of course, they had closed it
off. But it was the steps and the road and . . . [that's] where people
were. And because I could, you know--one could just walk freely and be
as close as one wanted to be. And of course, you could hear it all the
way to the monument through those big speakers. But it was that
experience--it was experiencing people who cared about something deeply
[and] who were being natural human beings. And that was very impactful
for me.
JMB:
Well, I have to ask you to explain a little bit more what you mean by
"natural human beings" . . . .
WYF:
So, when I moved from Nantucket to Virginia, I--for the first
time--experienced white people being full of evaluation, negative
evaluation--about anyone that was different. Whether it was [a]
different religion, or a different color, there was--the code of living
was very, very restrictive and oppressive. And partly because I was tan
from being outside and tended to be dark, I felt castigated and I felt
unwelcomed.
JMB:
They didn't know what you were?
WYF:
They didn't know what I was. And because our family was so different
anyway, it wasn't--I just didn't fit in easily. But aside from that, I
had grown up in communities where there was a modicum of respect and
consideration and caring. And there wasn't that [in Alexandria]. And
then to encounter the level of poverty that people were forced to live
in, forced because the county refused to deliver electricity or refused
to put in sewers . . . and water delivery and things of that sort. When,
you know, across the street, people had electricity and water, it seemed
unethical and highly immoral. So, to see people who in our neighborhood
[in Alexandria] were castigated and denigrated and treated very, very
poorly--being natural and in their own empowerment in a way [in
Washington, D.C.]--
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
That was what I meant by being "a natural human being" . . . living with
the respect that they afforded themselves and each other.
JMB:
Yes. Not having to be defensive, or compensate for other people's--
WYF:
Yeah, that's well-put.
JMB:
--attitudes.
WYF:
Yeah.
JMB:
And you said that your parents hosted the C.O.R.E. people?
WYF:
The [Unitarian] church hosted the C.O.R.E. people.
00:15:00
JMB:
I was going to ask you, given the
circumstances--the attitudes and the segregation--where did the C.O.R.E.
visitors stay, were they [put up by church members]?
WYF:
They--well, the church--this was the [Mt. Vernon] Unitarian Church--had
bought an old estate. And they . . . used the chapel . . . as . . . a
guest house . . . . And it had out-buildings, but it also had this
estate house. And so the C.O.R.E. people stayed upstairs . . . above the
chapel in the rooms upstairs. And then they also stayed in the main
brick estate house.
JMB:
That's great.
WYF:
On the grounds of the church.
JMB:
So, when did you--well, you graduated from high school in Virginia, and
what--now [where did you go from there]?
WYF:
Well, actually, I didn't graduate. I dropped out of high school [because
of a militaristic rule at the school, which had hired some ex-Pentagon
staff] and I moved to New York City. And it's a long story of adventure.
But eventually, I got into college on the lottery system in Washington,
D.C. when they opened Federal City College. Rather than ask for formal
applications, they held a lottery. [Created by an act of Congress in
1966, Federal City College opened its doors in 1968, but more than 6,000
persons applied for the 2,400 available places, so admission was
determined by lottery. After ten years, Federal City College was
combined with the District of Columbia Teachers College and Washington
Technical Institute to form a single university called the University of
the District of Columbia, which opened in the fall of 1978.] . . . . And
I was 524, I was number 524 . . . . So, for the first couple years, they
admitted students based on the lottery system.
JMB:
Wow.
WYF:
And I got in on the lottery system. And I went to that school that was
primarily black. You know, today we would say African American. But
there were African American instructors and--
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
So, I went to--I did probably two years of college--and I was in and out
of school because I was very active with the Peace and--what was it?
Peace and Action . . . [Coalition]. Anyway, it was an anti-war
organization and we hosted demonstrations. And, you know, during that
time, hundreds of thousands of people would come to Washington and
March. And I was in charge of organizing the food. And making
arrangements with Georgetown University--they used their kitchens--and
cooking big vats of rice and big tubs of granola and stuff like that.
JMB:
Beny did go to--my husband did go to a march. We were living in
Pittsburgh and he drove to Washington, I think it was in the summer of
'67 [actually 1968 or 1969]. So you may have--
WYF:
. . . . I was there in sixty--it was probably '69 -'70 through '72. And
in Vermont and New York, the Bread and Puppet Theater operated. And . .
. they came to Washington and set up a base there. And so I was part of
that, the Bread and Puppet Theater in Washington during that time. So
that was a great adventure during those years.
JMB:
They were . . . [an agitprop group], . . . they were political . . . the
Bread and Puppet Theater.
WYF:
They were, and they still are.
JMB:
Yes, yes.
WYF:
They're very political, yeah.
JMB:
What were you doing with them?
WYF:
Making masks. Writing plays.
JMB:
That [mask-making] was a premonition of things to come [at CAFAM].
WYF:
Wasn't that interesting?
JMB:
Yeah.
WYF:
The masks were huge, though. They weren't just face masks, they were--
JMB:
I've seen pictures.
WYF:
--really like three-foot size heads and two-foot hands. And we would go
and perform in the parks, or go to the schools and perform in the
schools, and disrupt classrooms, and terrible things like that but--
JMB:
But how exciting for you. You were--
WYF:
That was very exciting.
JMB:
--what, 19, 20?
WYF:
Yeah.
JMB:
Something like that.
WYF:
Yeah.
JMB:
And then you went to New York?
WYF:
I went to New York in the late '60s and I just happened to live in New
York with friends. We lived on the Lower East Side and then on the Upper
West Side for a while before it became gentrified.
JMB:
Before--yes. I was actually born on the Upper West Side and it was not--
WYF:
It was not pretty.
JMB:
Although it was [near Morningside Heights, where I went to a nursery
school]--
WYF:
It was beautiful in its own way but--
JMB:
. . . . And actually, when I was there, which was the [early] '40s, it
was fine as far as, you know, bringing up kids, so. But when you were
there, it had changed, I know.
00:20:00
WYF:
So, in 1973, I moved to California and lived initially in Berkeley with
friends, and then moved to Santa Monica.
And when I was living in Santa Monica, I went--I realized I needed to be
back in school. And I went to Santa Monica College and readied my units
for transfer to UCLA. But I had--so that I have [always had] really dual
interests. . . .
JMB:
Oh, you have. OK.
WYF:
When I was at Santa Monica City College, I thought I was applying to
Sonoma State, which I did. I applied to Sonoma State and was accepted
and was going to go into their psychology program. But . . . I was in a
Jungian Analysis in L.A., and didn't want to disrupt that. And I had a
boyfriend and he didn't want to move up north. So--as I was trying to
make a decision [as to] what to do, I met a woman, Judy Mitoma, who--
JMB:
Oh, I know Judy a little bit.
WYF:
--yeah, so I met Judy when her children were just little. [Her son,
Emiko Sarasvati Susilo], was two.
JMB:
Was she in the World Arts and Cultures [program at UCLA] at that time?
WYF:
And Judy worked in the Ethnic Arts program--
JMB:
That's what they called it then.
WYF:
--as it was called at the time. [Now it's called the World Arts and
Cultures/Dance Department.]
JMB:
Yes, yes.
WYF:
And Judy said, "Oh, I teach in this program. You would love it." So I
applied and I ended up going to the Ethnic Arts program, which was ideal
for me. It's an interdisciplinary program in the arts and sciences. And
it allows one to focus in one of six areas: theater, dance, folklore,
anthropology, music, [or] art history. And I chose art history as my
major. But of course, if one, for example, were studying East Indian
art, then you took the music, dance, theater, folklore, . . and
anthropology of that culture. So that it was a--sort of a holistic look
at a culture or a contextual exploration of whatever your subject matter
was.
JMB:
Yes, that program really pioneered--even within UCLA--ethnic studies. I
think they started before there was any Center for African American
[Studies] or [American Indian Studies Center].
WYF:
Or Chicano Studies--they did.
JMB:
Right.
WYF:
They did. And it pushed the boundaries of each of the departments, who
were sort of fiefdoms unto themselves.
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
And brought them into relational alliance with each other. And it was
heavenly . . . to study in the program. Allegra Fuller Snyder conceived
of the [Ethnic Arts] program. She's Buckminster Fuller's daughter . . .
. And Judy at the time was a student working on her doctorate. And
Judy's specialty was dance. And because it was dance [and] Allegra was
the chair of the dance department at the time, . . . Allegra and Judy
knew each other quite well. And their energies together helped to launch
this program.
JMB:
Amazing.
WYF:
Yeah, it was a gift. It still is, I think, for students to study in that
program.
JMB:
Somebody, if they haven't already, should do an oral history of --
WYF:
Of the whole program, yeah.
JMB:
--of that program.
WYF:
It's a remarkable program. It's done so much to cultivate cross-cultural
understanding.
JMB:
Yes. And I can certainly understand why it was perfect for you.
WYF:
Yeah, it was. It was a remarkable--education. So rather than give up
psychology, my interest in psychology [became] . . . more like a hobby.
I would attend James Kirsch's Monday evening seminars and just take
weekend seminars at the Jung Institute. [James Kirsch with his wife,
Hilde, were Jungian analysts who founded the C.G. Jung Institute in Los
Angeles.] But it was [perfect for me] --that was part of my private
life--and my public life was what ultimately became [my] work at the
[Craft and Folk Art] Museum. And [the way I found out about] . . . the
Museum [was] sitting in the [UCLA] art library one day, talking with
Bunny Rinne, who had gone to school with Patrick Ela . . . .
JMB:
At Occidental.
WYF:
At Occidental with Patrick. And . . . Bunny was working on her
doctorate. And was also working [with] her husband at the time—[they]
were involved with working at the Getty [Museum]. And Patrick's wife [at
the time]—Sally--worked at the Getty. . . .
JMB:
Right, she was the Registrar.
WYF:
Yeah. So, I was asking Bunny what she recommended in terms of places to
volunteer because I wanted to make concrete the work that I was doing in
the [Ethnic Arts] program. And she said, "Well, you could volunteer for
[the Fowler Museum] --at UCLA." The Fowler at the time was in the
basement of the Anthropology Department. [At the time, it was called the
Museum of Cultural History.]
JMB:
I remember--it's amazing, the difference [now].
00:25:00
WYF:
"So," [she said], "you can volunteer with the Fowler and work on those
dusty cases,
or you could go to the Bowers Museum or, come to think of it, you could
go to the Craft and Folk Art Museum. And Patrick Ela's the Director," .
. . or whatever he was at the time. . . . So, the Bowers, [which is down
in Santa Ana], was too far to go. And I did volunteer with Pat--
JMB:
Altman?
WYF:
With Pat Altman, one of those [people at the Museum of Cultural History]
--she was lovely. Very idiosyncratic, and I loved her. I loved working
with her. So Pat Altman was there. And there was another woman--
JMB:
And [Pat Altman] knew Edith Wyle at the Craft and Folk Art Museum.
WYF:
But I didn't know that at the time.
JMB:
Oh, OK.
WYF:
So, I went to the [Craft and Folk Art] Museum in the summer. It was
during the show of that Japanese train station, and I can't remember
[the date].
JMB:
Oh, the Shinjuku Station. [Shinjuku: the Phenomenal City; opened June
17, 1977] . . . .
WYF:
Yeah, so . . . I went to the museum and I met Patrick. And, oh, no--I
didn't meet him. . . . Well, whatever year it was, it was the summer of
that show. And I think I must have been interviewed by Lorraine. Anyway,
they needed someone to work the phones. Patrick and Edith were out of
town. They came back and there I was--where Merat [had] sat by those
glass windows--looking over the Tar Pits, answering the telephone. {The
CAFAM administrative offices at that time were on the third floor,
overlooking Wilshire Blvd. and the Tar Pits.] And then Shan needed help
on the Festival [of Masks]. And I had all these contacts of artists and
performers from the--
JMB:
Through the Ethnic Arts [program]?
WYF:
Through Ethnic Arts, so--
JMB:
Oh, she was very happy, I'm sure.
WYF:
So, I got busy.
JMB:
Yeah, you sure did.
WYF:
Working with her and working on the Mask Festival. And the way that
Edith conceived of the Festival was so in keeping with the way the
Ethnic Arts program was conceived at the time. She wanted an integration
of the arts. And she very much wanted the museum to support the arts
beyond the walls of the museum.
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
And the Festival--
JMB:
The "museum without walls," I guess. [This was a concept that originated
with André Malraux.]
WYF:
Yeah, so the Festival was--at that time--the program that enabled that
to happen--I think that [the] Today programs also allowed that vision to
unfold.
JMB:
Yes, and we'll get to that because you were very involved with those.
Before we go on to talk about CAFAM, I wanted to mention that while you
were still at UCLA, you got a fellowship grant. I think it was called
the President's Undergraduate Fellowship.
WYF:
Yep, it was.
JMB:
In '78. I guess, you actually had started at CAFAM already as a
volunteer.
WYF:
Yeah.
JMB:
But then, you got this grant to do field research in Guatemala and I
wanted you to talk about that. Had you been to Guatemala before?
WYF:
I hadn't been to Guatemala. And the choice for me in--
JMB:
Now how did that come about?
WYF:
I heard that there was a President's Grant and that it would support
research. And having worked on the Mask Festival and having been drawn
to what the mask allowed one to come in contact with, i.e., it allowed
one to come in contact with the graphic arts of a culture, the music and
dance of a culture, the folklore of a culture--and in some ways, the
anthropology. It-- [the President’s Grant]--for me, it represented a way
to enter a culture that was very much like the Mask Festival itself and
the art-- my studies at UCLA. And having worked with Judy--Judy at the
time was . . . Judy Susilo because she had married an Indonesian man
from Java, who was named Susilo. And he's the father of her children.
So, I wanted either to go to Java and Bali, or to go to Guatemala. And I
realized that going to Indonesia would be much more expensive than going
to Guatemala, so I chose Guatemala. And what's the name of the man who
was the chair of the theater arts department who had that fabulous
puppet collection? Oh, what a dear man.
JMB:
Oh, I don't think I know that, but we can probably look it up. [Mel
Helstien had an important puppet collection and was the head of UCLA's
Puppet Program when it existed within the Theater Department; he was
Vice-Chair of the Theater Department 1971-73 and 1981-85; his puppet
collection was given to the Fowler Museum.]
WYF:
Yeah, I forgot his name, but when he learned that I had received the
President's Grant, he gave me a camera from the theater department to
take with me. And I was astounded by the support and generosity. I
couldn't believe that somebody would offer--it was a motion picture
camera. He said, "You're going to want to take movies."
JMB:
Wow.
00:30:00
WYF:
But it's--it'll come to me.
JMB:
Well, yeah, we can fill that in [later].
WYF:
Yeah, so anyway, what I also did, I went to Pat Altman and I asked her
if there were masks in the collection of the Fowler . . . from Guatemala
but . . . hadn't been identified. And could I take Polaroids of them and
take them with me to Guatemala and see if I could--
JMB:
A great idea.
WYF:
--identify those. So that was my project to just [locate and identify
those masks]--and really--I just wandered around in Guatemala--
JMB:
Did you speak . . . the [language]?
WYF:
I had studied Spanish in school. But really, it was at a very elementary
level. But I had enough language to communicate. And my--of course--it
was limited to the graphic arts and to issues around masks and dance and
music. So I was able to communicate with people in Spanish. And one day,
I bought--it was cold--and I bought a sweater in an outdoor market,
which is where people buy most of their things. And just wore it every
day. And as I traveled on the buses, people thought I was a tour guide
from Guatemala City, who was researching interesting places to take
tourists. It was so funny.
JMB:
That might have been another career path for you.
WYF:
It just might have been. I didn't pick up on it at the time.
JMB:
So how long were you there?
WYF:
I was there for five months.
JMB:
Oh, that's a long time.
WYF:
And I traveled by bus, going from little town to little town, hitting--
JMB:
And you were by yourself?
WYF:
And I was by myself. People would say, "Where's your family? You're
traveling by yourself?" And they would become very protective of me.
JMB:
Now that--oh, go ahead, yeah.
WYF:
I just wanted to say something about the language. I think when I went
there first, I think that initial first week or first two weeks, I
attended a language school in Antigua because I wanted to be able to
understand some of the idiomatic expressions that were native or germane
to Guatemala because most of my travels previously had been in Mexico.
And that was a wonderful introduction to the pacing of the culture. A
very introverted, quiet, respectful, formal culture in Guatemala. So,
that was--I found that valuable to have done that. And of course, when I
was there, then I was asking people what are the important feast days
and each village has a feast day. And with each feast day are masked
dances. And that was sort of how I organized my [travels].
JMB:
So, you were able to be there for some of those feast days?
WYF:
Well, and I would travel [from] town to town going to--
JMB:
Based on that.
WYF:
--their town's feast day. And then I would meet people or people in one
village would know someone in another, and I would connect through this
web of friendships that people have with each other.
JMB:
Yes. I suppose quite a few of the people you met were Guatemalan Indians
and spoke various Indian languages. I would imagine, although maybe they
also spoke Spanish, as well?
WYF:
They spoke--many of them spoke Spanish--and most of them spoke Quiché.
[Quiché is a Maya language of Guatemala, spoken by the K'iché people of
the central highlands. Quiché is the second-most widely spoken language
in the country after Spanish. Most speakers of Quiché languages also
have at least a working knowledge of Spanish.]
JMB:
Quiché, OK.
WYF:
So, I lived with a family--this is interesting to remember. At the Mask
Festival--or in the process of organizing the Festival, I would call all
the consulates and ask them if they were aware of any people from the
country that they were representing living in Los Angeles. And in one of
my forays of phone calls, I talked to a man named John, whose last name
I don't recall, who was the Consul General for Guatemala. And he was so
enthused about the Festival that he sponsored a Guatemalan mask-maker to
attend the Mask Festival and demonstrate mask carving. And through
meeting Jorge, [the mask maker], I then met his family and went to
Guatemala and they arranged for me--
JMB:
On a later trip?
WYF:
On a later trip. They arranged for me to stay at the little store that
his mother owned that sold native weavings for their town. And that was
San Antonio Aguas Calientes. And I stayed at El Palomar, [their store].
And the women who worked at El Palomar were all family relations, who
spoke Quiché. And the grandmothers spoke very little Spanish and mostly
Quiché. So, they taught me how to say, "Good morning, Grandmother," and
"Thank you, Grandmother," and things like that.
JMB:
The essentials.
WYF:
The essentials.
JMB:
Quiché is Q-U-E--what is it?
WYF:
It's Q-U-I-C-H-E, I
think—Quiché.
JMB:
Well, how brave you were to do that. So, I do remember that at some
point after you had come back, you wrote an article that was published
in the CAFAM newsletter about your experiences in Guatemala.
WYF:
About that experience.
JMB:
Yes, I remember being very impressed with that. Did you--so, then when
you got back to UCLA, did you have to--you had identified some of the
masks?
WYF:
I had identified some of the masks. I--but what I also realized, Joan,
when I was traveling, is how--how through the lens of the researcher,
much research is. That I felt that--there was an incredible sort of--in
some ways, disregard for the--there was more interest in the people as
subjects of research, rather than as being human beings in their own
right. And I think the experiences I had as a child encountering
cultural and racial difference impacted my--
JMB:
Sure, gave you more empathy.
WYF:
--my experience. And I felt very empathetic to the people. And I felt
that they were honorable and noble. And the research didn't convey that.
And I felt that the research was inflated. That it pumped up the--it
pumped up the findings and made them very grand in ways that they
shouldn't have been. So I had a real struggle with research at the time
and the way it used people of culture to support careers and the level
of politics was--amongst researchers--was really distasteful to me. And
I think it was one of the things that moved me in the direction of CAFAM
and away from pursuing a master's. Because I was having--had that,
received the grant, and having written about it and showed slide
presentations and stuff like that, it seemed a natural to pursue a
master's degree either in art history or in folklore, I think, were the
two choices at the time. But I was so discouraged with the dishonesty
that I saw--not so much at UCLA--but in the field of research itself,
that I couldn't really pursue it.
JMB:
You felt you would be taking advantage of the people that you were
researching?
WYF:
That I would be--or that I wouldn't be able to tell--that the truth of
what was there wasn't what was so important. And that the theoretical
lens was too prescriptive and had so much more to do with our academic
premises than with the reality of what was there . . . . That was a huge
conflict for me.
JMB:
Well, that was very insightful of you, because I think that at that
time--this was still the late '70s—right?
WYF:
Uh-huh [affirmative].
JMB:
Those ideas were not at the forefront of academic discussion the way
they were [later in the nineties]. I think it took almost 20 years.
WYF:
To evolve that.
JMB:
Or at least 15 years to evolve that. So, did you talk to Edith or
Patrick about--I don't remember if--I should have reread your article
before today, and I don't remember if you had made any comments about
that in your article. Did you talk to Edith or Patrick about that?
WYF:
Unh-uh [negative].
00:40:00
JMB:
You know, a lot of the people that came to CAFAM--and certainly people
who were involved in exhibitions at CAFAM--were collectors who looked at
the objects
, (laughs) well--as objects—[aesthetic objects] and [also] the people as
objects.
WYF:
Exactly.
JMB:
As well, so, you must have had some mixed feelings about some of your
experiences there at CAFAM, too.
WYF:
I did. I definitely did. And there were a few collectors that were
deeply related to the culture, to the people. And certainly, Edith was.
Edith had a social conscience.
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
A very strong social conscience. For example, when we were working on
the Scandinavia Today program, we would go for breakfast with Mr.
[William O.] Anderson, [CEO of Bank of America], in that big board room
on the very top of--
JMB:
Oh, yes.
WYF:
--the Bank of America [building]. And we would arrive in the underground
parking, and she would say, "Do you see what happens? These people get
out of their house, they walk on pavement, they get in their car, their
feet never touch the grass." And one day coming back, we were driving
back, it was probably on Normandy or Crenshaw [Boulevard], and there was
a police car that had stopped two black guys. And the policeman had his
foot on the head of the African-American man whose face was on the
pavement. And Edith made Patrick stop the car, and she got out and said
something to this policeman. She was irate. She had very strong feelings
about how people should be treated and it so deeply offended her.
JMB:
You were there when this happened?
WYF:
Yeah, I was--Patrick was driving. He drove Edith's Mercedes before she
sold it to him.
JMB:
Oh, I remember that car. Well, how did the policemen react?
WYF:
They were--startled. And he took his foot off [the head of the black
man].
JMB:
That's pretty amazing because she could have been arrested, too.
WYF:
But she was the child of an anarchist's family.
JMB:
Wow, yes, I was going to say I know.
WYF:
And she had very deep, very deep feelings. And she was a warrior in her
own way.
JMB:
Oh, yes. Well, that's a wonderful story about Edith. I'm glad you told
us that story. So, you--got your [B.A.] degree in [Ethnic Arts] in '79.
And that was after you had come back from Guatemala. But you did also--
before that--you worked another Festival of Masks at CAFAM, again as a
volunteer, assisting Shan. The '78 festival, I think, is--was the first
one [where you had a title: Project Assistant]. Let's see, that was a
whole weekend, I believe. Yeah, '77 was just one day. Do you--well, what
I'd like you to do is tell us about the Festival as if I had never [been
to it]--you know, just talk about the Festival as [it was then]--of
course, it evolved tremendously.
WYF:
Yeah.
JMB:
Especially after you became Coordinator [in 1979]. But just describe the
basic elements of it in '77 and '78?
WYF:
OK. It starts before the actual day of the Festival.
JMB:
Yeah.
00:45:00
WYF:
And the way that CAFAM organized the Festival was greatly determined by
Helen Young--I think her name was. She was a Chinese woman very active
in the Chinese community. And when Shan called her in '77, Helen said to
Shan, "The only way to do this is just go out into the communities and
go to people's churches and go to the community centers and start
meeting with people." Which she did, and we did. We were out and about,
going place after place after place. And in '78--by '78 . . . we were
having community meetings once or twice a month. So, I--well, I know we
had them for--once a month starting in November. So, we had it November,
December, and then as we approached the Festival [the following
October], then it became bi-monthly [once every two months]. So, Helen
suggested this form of organizing where you come into relationship with
people [first], and of course, Edith supported that, and felt that it
made a great deal of sense. And it got to the point where we weren't
going
into the community as much as we were inviting people to the Museum and
hosting the community meeting. [Shan Emanuelli was the Coordinator in
1977 with Willow helping her; in 1978, Shan was the Project Coordinator
and Willow was the Project Assistant; then from 1979 – 1986, Willow was
the Coordinator and then the Director.] And the community meeting--
JMB:
So that just kind of evolved naturally?
WYF:
--it evolved naturally. And it was [an] extraordinary experience of
having people from all over the city come together--warring Samoan
groups and everything--everyone else. Everyone from performers to food
vendors, to arts and crafts booth operators, to--what else would there
be? Oh, there were the food people, people selling their crafts and
other materials, including Rocky Behr, who had The Folk Tree [shop in
Pasadena].
JMB:
Oh, yes, yes.
WYF:
And other stores.
JMB:
She still has it, I think.
WYF:
John Browse, before he returned to the Museum, had a beautiful African
booth. And part of the reason for hosting the community meetings was to
cultivate a sense of community and to cultivate a sense that the
Festival wasn't just ours--that it--the Festival--was the City's. And it
was also during that time that we evolved a relationship with the [City
of L.A.] Cultural Affairs Department.
JMB:
I was wondering about that.
WYF:
And with the County--so that this became--it was one of the first ever
jointly-sponsored events between the City and the County, where the two
of them came together in support of a program with us. And I was always
very proud of that.
JMB:
Yes, because I think there was--
WYF:
The relational dynamics of that.
JMB:
--sort of almost a competitiveness between them before that.
WYF:
Yeah--which was fun, because I would go with a list of things that
needed to happen and I would go to the County and then I would go to the
City. And just--
JMB:
Yeah.
WYF:
--try to work that a little bit.
JMB:
Sure.
WYF:
And--but also to honor what each would do. For example, the County was
responsible for putting up the stages. And they were very proud of their
stages. And we worked with Bill Reed, who was our representative from
the County, a wonderful, lovely man.
JMB:
Yes. Isn't he the fellow who collected California pottery or is that
someone else?
WYF:
[Yes.] Anyway--very sweet guy. And at one point, the City wanted to
provide the stages. And we had to decline because we--the County was
doing it and they--it was their contribution.
JMB:
And it was a County park. We should say where this was taking place.
WYF:
That's true. So the Mask Festival was held in Hancock County Park, which
is directly across the street from the Craft and Folk Art Museum. It's
on the grounds where the Page Museum, which is part of the [L.A. County]
Natural History Museum, is located. It's also where the Tar Pits are and
it's adjacent to the County--L.A. County Museum of Art. It's a
beautiful, small park. And the Festival began with a parade, I think you
mentioned, in '77.
JMB:
Well, '76 was the--
WYF:
--was the [first] parade.
JMB:
Right. [And it was only a parade [on Wilshire Blvd.] with an Indonesian
Gamelan orchestra from CalArts playing on the sidewalk in front of
CAFAM].
WYF:
And '77 was a one-day Festival [in Hancock Park] with a parade.
JMB:
Right.
WYF:
And then in '78, we went to a two-day Festival with the parade on
Sunday--a parade on Wilshire Boulevard. What made the parade possible
was that we were working with the schools in the various communities
to--we had contacts with various teachers who felt that the mask was a
medium to explore the cultural traditions of the children at the school.
And the teachers felt that if the students' cultural traditions were
able to enter into their education, that the children would bond, they
would have a more effective attachment and bond with their school. So
the schools hosted workshops in mask-making and that's what enabled the
kids--all these throngs of kids to march in the parade wearing their
masks that they had made in school. And I have to say that that was
really made possible by a woman who I think you must know. She was an
African-American woman.
JMB:
Oh, Ethel Tracy?
WYF:
Yes.
JMB:
At the 92nd Street School.
WYF:
Yes.
JMB:
Amazing woman.
WYF:
Yeah, oh, it gives me goose bumps, Joan, just for you to say that. She
really was a bridge. She helped us bridge into the school and into the
community, and she helped them bridge to us.
JMB:
And she was a very strong supporter of the Museum, as well.
WYF:
Very strong. But at that time, she hadn't yet become a strong supporter
of the museum. She was, at least as far as I know, she came in through
the Mask Festival and the contacts in those early years.
JMB:
But she was a teacher there at the 92nd Street School.
WYF:
She was an educator and a teacher. And a very much valued,
cross-cultural educator.
00:50:00
JMB:
Boy, it seems like so many elements just, you know,
the stars were aligned.
WYF:
They were. It was as though the stars were aligned. We had phenomenal
support financially from the National Endowment for the Arts.
JMB:
And it was important to get their support early on. It--I think the
first grant was only $5,000 but what it meant symbolically.
WYF:
Yeah. Well, it primed the pump for more funding, both from the City and
the County. But it was--we were graced with support. And graced with
people who wanted to help—to help us succeed.
JMB:
Yes. Well, it was such fun—[for] . . . all, I think, the whole staff of
CAFAM.
WYF:
I know (laughing).
JMB:
[We all] became volunteers one way or another. But also, just as when
you were able to get some time off from doing whatever you were
volunteering to do, just wandering the grounds, or standing on the
street to watch the parade, was so exciting, so colorful and--
WYF:
It was colorful and it was energetic. And so, I just want to say
something about the format. Because in spite of all the community
meetings and the workshops that were held at CAFAM and the workshops
that were held at the community art centers--do you remember--there was
William Grant Still [Arts Center] and--
JMB:
Oh, yes. Yes.
WYF:
So the City oversaw community art centers. And each of those centers
sponsored mask-making workshops and provided space for community dancers
to meet and rehearse. And just [gave us] extraordinary support. So that
was going on in advance of the Festival. The Festival always took place
either the last or the next to last weekend in October.
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
In Hancock Park. And it consisted of a day of performances. So there was
either one stage, or later--or almost immediately--two stages with
simultaneous and ongoing performances, buffered by rows of booths from
which were operated--well, I know CAFAM had the information booth and
there were arts and crafts mask-making booths; people selling masks and
ethnic clothing. And then, at another location [but nearby], were rows
of ethnic food booths.
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
Operated by family members of the--families members or church groups of
the performers, so that while we couldn't afford to pay the performers
very much money, they were able to make money for themselves by hosting
their food booths.
JMB:
And you know, this was before "food courts," you know. It's been kind
of--it's gotten to be kind of a cliché in the malls that there are these
food courts [that serve "take-away" food—and many of them are "ethnic."]
And so it's hard to remember any of the excitement that when--the
Festival of Masks had all of these different ethnic food booths—[at the
time] that was a really important [and unique] part of the fun of the
Festival.
WYF:
I ate things at those food booths that I had never [before] encountered.
And I ate out in all the different ethnic restaurants of L.A. all the
time. But I remember a Thai woman fixing a papaya salad. I had never had
grated papaya with lime and chile before. And there she was grating it
on an old ceramic grater. And so, I remember having that for the first
time. And then there was an Ethiopian dish that was not made or served
at the Ethiopian restaurants, that they'd make for the Mask Festival. It
was--it was really quite an amazing event. And it's true that every
single person at the museum, whether you were the Preparator, or the
Registrar, or the Bookkeeper--everybody was actively involved in
carrying a very significant role in helping that event to go forward on
those two days. It wouldn't have happened if we didn't have everybody.
JMB:
Plus, of course, you had a lot of other volunteers who were not staff
members.
WYF:
Oh, that we did.
JMB:
You eventually--I think there was a volunteer coordinator . . . .
WYF:
We did. We had volunteer coordinators. And volunteers came from each of
the church groups.
JMB:
Oh.
WYF:
And from members of the community, so that we had quite a diverse group.
And the Museum itself had a very large volunteer pool.
JMB:
Well, that's what I was thinking of. Yes.
WYF:
I remember Sally Cullman organizing them one year.
JMB:
Well, there's a wonderful [Festival of Masks] notebook that is now in
the CAFAM archives at UCLA that is very well-organized. And it may have
been Sally's.
WYF:
The volunteer [notebook]--yeah.
JMB:
Yes.
00:55:00
WYF:
There probably was.
She was so well-[organized].
JMB:
It had all of the information you could ever want to know about the
Festival. I wanted to ask you-- you started out by saying when the
Festival normally was, which was the end of the last weekend in October.
At the beginning, it was very up-front associated with Halloween. But
eventually you seguéd away from that association and I think even
eventually went to a different weekend [entirely] in order to separate
[the Festival from Halloween]. Can you talk about that a little bit?
WYF:
Yeah, I think the--I don't, I wasn't there for the [start of it]--in
'76. So, I don't know what the focus was. I know that when I came on
board, the language that was used was that the mask [was] a
representation of a graphic art of a particular culture [that]
integrated dance, theater, folklore, and music of a culture. That--and
that really just was borrowed directly from the Ethnic Arts program or
at least my experience in it. And it--how it was definitely a cultural
focus, but it wasn't the only focus. And we coordinated an exhibit--I
think I was the curator of that exhibit.
JMB:
Yes, well, there were several [mask] exhibitions. I know at least one of
which you were the curator.
WYF:
It predated the Olympic Arts Festival.
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
So, [the title] was Masks In Motion: Form and Function. [It opened
September 24, 1980.] And the idea of that exhibit was to communicate the
ritual use of masks in culture. So, it was: How are masks used? What is
the value of a particular mask in a particular culture--beyond its
graphic beauty and aesthetic? And that's why we called it Masks In
Motion. I think that title was borrowed from an exhibit that had been at
UCLA about something in motion. But it was because masks for the most
part . . . were used in dance. . . . That it was the mask in motion--the
mask alive--and participatory within the community itself.
JMB:
Yes, I remember, I think it was--it may have been Jim Pieper, you know,
who collected Guatemalan masks that--and this may not have been original
with him, but he used the phrase that the mask, in order to be
desireable for a collector, the mask had to have been "danced." So, you
know--
WYF:
It adds an energetic patina.
JMB:
Yeah. Well, you became the Coordinator of the 1979 [Festival of Masks].
I think at one point, at some point, the title was changed to Director
but at any rate, you--
WYF:
So, [the title] was the Coordinator for a long time.
JMB:
. . . . And really, although you went on to do a great many other things
at the Museum, I think the Festival of Masks is the activity that you
were most associated with. I think you were happy with that.
WYF:
I was happy with that.
JMB:
Yes. Now, when you took on the Festival in '79, had you already been
hired as Special Events Coordinator? I know that you had that title,
also.
WYF:
Gosh, I don't think so. I think I came on as Coordinator of the Mask
Festival. I had--I was working with Shan in '77, working in '78, and I
remember when I left for Guatemala, Edith said, "Well, we want you to
come back. And when you come back, we will hire you." And I didn't
believe her.
JMB:
Oh, really?
01:00:00
WYF:
I thought--you know, "How nice." But I just didn't believe that that was
possible. And when I came back, I was hired! And I believe I came on as
[Festival] Coordinator. And whether the title became Special, Director
of Special Programs, I don't recall when that happened. I just remember
working on the Mask Festival and loving it and working with ethnic
communities. And I think the first time, at least in my relationship
with Edith, that I felt a profoundly authentic respect was during
the--as we were putting together the [1980] Masks In Motion show and
she'd asked if I would curate it, she asked me
what color . . . walls I wanted, what color did I want the walls to be.
And I said, "Well, I'd like you to help, too; you really have such a
good sense of color." And she said, "This is your show and you can
choose the colors."
JMB:
She always respected curators a lot.
WYF:
Well, that was--that was a really shifting experience for me in my
relationship with her. It made me respect her tremendously. And I felt
that she was giving me space to make a choice on that. That was really a
gift because it wasn't my specialty, and it was hers. And I wanted to do
it in coordination with her.
JMB:
Well, and you were relatively inexperienced as far as exhibition
planning at that point.
WYF:
It wasn't [my specialty]. I mean, I had studied art and certainly I had
my opinions and was drawn aesthetically. But she was the curator. So, I
felt honored. And I do remember working with her and talking about the
meaning of the colors. And if we were to use ochre, versus a cochineal
and which colors were relevant culturally. And that was a wonderful
conversation. And then of course, then to work with Max King, who was
the graphic designer, on the creation of the posters. I think we don't
realize the extent to which her posters communicated the heart and soul
of the Festival.
JMB:
Absolutely.
WYF:
And drew people to it and--
JMB:
I know people who have collected those posters.
WYF:
Oh, I wish I had those in good shape. Mine have tape and other things on
them but--
JMB:
Well, there are pretty good copies of all of them in the CAFAM archive
at UCLA.
WYF:
They were truly beautiful. [Break in audio for lunch.]
JMB:
OK, we took a little break and we were talking about preparing for the
exhibition that you curated, the Mask In Motion exhibition [in 1980]. .
. . So [that] was the [second] festival that you were heading. . . . I
mean, it was hard enough, I'm sure, just being in charge for the first
time, and then to have the exhibition to organize at the same time must
have been a big challenge?
WYF:
I don't know that I--I don't have memories of it being hard. I have
memories of it being incredibly exciting. And we had a big--we had a
team. There was an assistant, you know, as Shan moved [away from the
Festival] to do formal curatorial work.
JMB:
Yeah, she worked more with Edith after that.
WYF:
She worked with Edith on the--on primarily . . . the contemporary
exhibits.
JMB:
Right.
WYF:
And then I had an assistant, [Katie Bergin], and there was a volunteer
coordinator and—[later, Aaron Paley].
JMB:
Well, you started to talk about Max King, the graphic designer.
WYF:
Well, in the museum itself . . . I was thinking about the people who
worked on the Festival. So Max was responsible for the [Festival's]
graphic design from business cards, to stationery, to the poster, to
brochures. And the posters were widely distributed throughout the City
and the County through those avenues, and then through all our community
members. And the posters had a feeling of the individual--it wasn't just
a mask, it was an individual--one of the performers wearing a mask. And
everybody knew who it was, or at least everyone in the community knew
who it was. And, you know, people would come to us, "Well, can we be
next? Can we be on the poster next?" So there was a real sense of
wanting to be involved. But Max was so wonderful to work with in terms
of understanding the lettering, the font, and the size and the colors,
and how it would pop the information out.
01:05:00
JMB:
Well, that was a very important part of your publicity effort, of
course. But Max also--my recollection of her--and we actually shared an
office in that little cottage around the corner on Curson--she really,
in addition to what she was formally doing, which was the graphic design
[for the whole museum], as you've said. She helped everybody stay
organized because her deadlines
were really pretty rigid. And she would get so frustrated when things,
you know, would fall behind. So it really helped, I think, to have her,
you know, letting us know that there was a timeline. But of course, I'm
sure that with the Festival, you had many deadlines, too?
WYF:
We had many deadlines. I recall meeting with Ron Katsky, who was the
museum's lawyer.
JMB:
Oh, yes.
WYF:
--to develop contracts.
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
Develop contracts for the vendors that were different than contracts for
the performers, different from contracts for the food booth operators.
And Ron and his--you know--Western legalese would create these
impossible-to-understand documents. And I remember talking to him after
I got the courage to speak to someone that I esteemed so: "Ron, if a
Samoan can't read this, it's not going to get signed. We have to have
this in English that people can understand."
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
But, you know, that was the lawyer on the Board of the Museum. So, even
people on the Board were involved in some aspect of responsibility for
making the Festival a success. And I do think that Ron's willingness to
help us develop contracts that were readable and understandable and were
respectful was really important. So, yes, we had contract deadlines. We
had meeting deadlines. We had graphic arts deadlines. We had . . .
permit deadlines.
JMB:
Oh, yeah.
WYF:
Because we had to work both with . . . the County system of permits and
the City system of permits. So, we worked throughout the year with a
series of deadlines, you know, doing the best that we could when we
could do it. [Tape skips.]
JMB:
OK, we're back again. And I was just going to ask you about the grants
that you got. Weren’t you writing some of the grant proposals?
WYF:
I was writing grant proposals. I wrote--
JMB:
So there were deadlines for those, too?
WYF:
And there were deadlines for those. I wrote grant proposals and I worked
on a grant proposal in '77 and then one in '78, and then continued
writing both for the Festival and then for the Today programs. I wrote
grant proposals for Egypt Today and Scandinavia Today. We were applying
not only to the National Endowment for the Arts but to the California
Arts Council, to the City Arts Council, and then to some corporations,
[such as] Tosco.
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
I remember writing a proposal for Tosco. [Tosco—The Oil Shale
Company—Mort Winston, who served as CAFAM Board President, 1976 – 1987,
was the Tosco CEO.] Now, that wasn't something I did entirely by myself,
Joan. As you know, Patrick and Edith were intimately involved and that
was Patrick's purview, were all the proposals. So, we would be writing
our portions of them and submitting them to him for the overall
coordination of it.
JMB:
Yes, I--he was a very good mentor for me for grant proposals. He knew
the lingo, the special kind of language that you had to use for getting
money. Very important for CAFAM throughout all of our activities it
seemed. Well, I did want to mention one thing that happened about this
same time that you were getting even more involved. At this point, you
were working--was it a full-time position then? [Willow nods, “Yes.”]
OK. And in March of '79, there were some support groups established . .
. . One was the Contemporary Craft Council and the other was the Folk
Art Council at CAFAM. Of course, the two [major] areas [of concern],
that primarily--at least to begin with--were folk art--international
folk art--and contemporary crafts. And as you mentioned, Shan was more
interested in contemporary craft. But you, of course, had a special
interest in folk art. And it was natural that you became, I think, the
staff liaison for the Folk Art Council. And it had started just about
the time that you started working on staff as a paid staff member. Do
you remember anything about those first Folk Art Council meetings--who
was involved or--?
01:10:00
WYF:
Well, Joan, it was wonderful. It was wonderful. Tomi Haas?
JMB:
Yes. Now, [she is known as] Tomi Kuwayama.
WYF:
Now, Tomi . . . Kuwayama. So, she took her birth name, is that right?
JMB:
That's right. Kuwayama was her family name.
WYF:
So there was Tomi. And Joyce--
JMB:
Hundal?
WYF:
Joyce Hundal. Gosh, Joan, you are so good.
JMB:
Well, only because of the work I've been doing on the archives.
WYF:
Yeah, so Tomi and Joyce Hundal, and the woman who had very white hair
who was a Guatemalan textile collector, who wrote a book?
JMB:
Oh--wrote a book? Let's see.
WYF:
Very good friends with Pat Altman.
JMB:
Well, there was another Pat--[Pat Anawalt]--who was with the Fowler.
WYF:
I think it was Pat Anawalt. She had a really wonderful collection.
JMB:
There was also Caroline West.
WYF:
Yes. And Caroline West. She's the white-haired--the woman with white
hair.
JMB:
Oh, OK.
WYF:
And Joyce's, Joyce Hundal's husband, Jerry--we would meet in Joyce's
apartment in West Hollywood. And have the Folk Art Council meetings. And
what evolved in the Folk Art Council, of course, the Folk Art Council
supported the folk art exhibits at the museum and were actively involved
in hosting . . . the lecture series. We did so much at the time.
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
Talking and realizing what we did. It was very expansive.
JMB:
Yes, it was immense.
WYF:
And notable. But we had a lecture series. And the Folk Art Council
sponsored the lecture series for the Mask Festival.
JMB:
Now, when you say they sponsored them, did they pay the speakers or how
did that, what did--do you remember?
WYF:
I think they did. I can't remember if [it] came out of the Museum's
coffers, but it was also people, there was a general public and the
revenue went to pay the speakers, also.
JMB:
Some of the speakers may have done it gratis.
WYF:
And some of them may have. But I think for the most part [they were paid
an honorarium]--but I've forgotten.
JMB:
Well, it was a long time ago. I was just wondering.
WYF:
They set an academic tone, the Folk Art Council did. But they had
standards of rigor that were greatly appreciated and valued. And they
had a--it was really an international [kind of] decorum. The level of
grace and quietude that Tomi brought to the Folk Art Council was deeply
appreciated. And I think lent--both an environment of seriousness and
exactness to the work that we were doing--but also a deep level of
respect. And the Folk Art Council eventually began sponsoring a Folk Art
Market.
JMB:
Yes, yes. Fabulous.
WYF:
That became its own.
JMB:
It stopped just this last year [the last one was in 2007]. Yes. Tomi
[coordinated it and] it went for 20 or 21 years. And she told me that
basically the members who had been doing it just felt that they had been
doing it a long, long time, yes. I don't know if they just were not
attracting younger members but--but it was a fabulous market.
WYF:
Yeah. So, yes, there was the Folk Art Council and that was an arm of
support for the Mask Festival, as well. But I want to go back to the
Museum a little bit because--I don't recall whether it was in '79 or
'80--but the education department also became involved then in [the
Festival] and they took over [the Festival's work with the schools].
JMB:
Was that with Janet Marcus or Karen?
WYF:
Well, Karen began it. Karen Copeland began it.
JMB:
Right.
WYF:
And then Janet really took it on. And Janet, so Janet--Karen helped to
spawn it—but Janet wasn't actively involved in the lecture series. And
then Janet took on that whole component that we had going in the
schools. So she went into the schools.
JMB:
That must have been a great relief to you?
01:15:00
WYF:
It was a great relief and it was wonderful because Janet also wrote
grants and received education grants to conduct the workshops in the
schools. So, it formalized what was an informal structure that we had
initiated. So then she created these wonderful programs that expanded
beyond the Festival into exhibition workshops and things like that. But
that,
you know, to have a sense of the small museum and each person in their
department working on some component and evolving their own department
in relationship to the Festival and beyond—[was very gratifying]...
JMB:
Yes. Let's just . . . that seems like a good segué to just talk about
the museum staff, sort of the museum culture. And what made it, you
know, so very special. I do think that in some way, the very fact that
we were essentially--each of us--pretty much stand-alone departments.
(Laughs) You know, we were. I was a solo librarian. I might--I did have
a part-time assistant from time to time. Remember that CETA, California
CETA program? That was great. The State paid 80 percent of, you know,
[the salary of] whoever you hired—[that] was amazing. And of course, we
all had volunteers. But essentially, in terms of professional staff, we
were one-person departments. But because of that, we--and, I think, both
Edith and Patrick--encouraged us to have a kind of entrepreneurial
spirit.
WYF:
They sure did.
JMB:
It was to their benefit, of course. (Laughs) But that--
WYF:
The sky was the limit.
JMB:
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think there was--they imbued us with such
confidence. Of course, we had to pass everything by them. But whatever
ideas we brought, if we could--and we had to figure out a way to pay for
it, that was where we all got very proficient at grant writing. But
really, it was amazing. There was very little bureaucracy. You know, you
could pretty much go [on your own].
WYF:
Well, the creative fires of each individual were well-tended and
supported. I think each of us, I think even the preparators, were
honored to expand their expertise.
JMB:
Yes, and, well, I think we admired each other. You know, we admired the
work that each other were doing and respected it. And another thing--you
were probably going to mention this at some point--Edith loved having
parties. And it seemed to me sometimes we had parties [for every
possible occasion]. Of course we celebrated everybody's birthday. But
there were all kinds of other occasions, receptions, just staff parties.
And that really fostered that--together with the respect that grew
between us--there was a great sense of family, I think.
WYF:
Well, we were part of the CAFAM family. And I do think that the times
had something to do with it. I think being--the 1970's and the
1980's--were lush with creative energy. Our age, just physically, and
who we were, and the age that we were during that time in our 20's and
30's.
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
And then for others--[in their] 40's and 50's--was a time of great
energy, availability to the museum. I mean, I worked 16-hour days and
never thought a thing about it.
JMB:
Oh, yeah.
WYF:
And when I started, we did our own mailings. And I remember [Shan
Emanuelli] and I--
JMB:
Yes. And this was before computers [and the Internet], of course.
WYF:
--we did our own mailings and we went down and dropped them off at the
main mail house. We worked very, very, very hard. And I think everyone
who worked there had a love and tolerance of labor that [made us work
so] hard.
JMB:
Don't you think that the fact that most of us were women had something
to do with it?
WYF:
Possibly. Possibly.
JMB:
I mean--I mean in the sense that we really had something to prove for
ourselves--for the world. We--that was a time of growing awareness of
feminism and wanting to prove--
WYF:
I don't think we thought about it, though. I think we just did it.
JMB:
Well, I think some of us thought about it a little bit. But, no, you're
right.
WYF:
I mean--I just didn't.
JMB:
And that's more of a thought in retrospect.
01:20:00
WYF:
Yeah, I don't think I did. But it's possible others did. I know there
were women
on the Board and then the Folk Art Council who thought of it in that
respect. I just was--I felt that we-- there was an ethic of hard work.
And that we did work hard.
JMB:
There was.
WYF:
And there were--every exhibition opening was a gala event.
JMB:
And it was always down to the wire, wasn't it?
WYF:
Oh, remember when the Korean stuff didn't arrive? [Guardians of
Happiness: A Shamanistic Approach to Korean Folk Art; opened 5-18-82]
JMB:
Oh, that was amazing.
WYF:
We had an empty opening.
JMB:
But that was pretty amazing, the way Edith, she took advantage--she
exploited that. They went ahead. I guess, what happened was--you correct
me if you know differently--but I think what happened was that the
invitations with the date of the reception had been sent out before they
realized that the objects were not going to arrive in time. So rather
than cancel it and have to, you know, contact all those people again,
Edith just decided to go ahead with the party. And I don't know if she
planned it, but I believe the truck did actually arrive during the
party.
WYF:
The truck arrived in the afternoon and some of the boxes were brought
into the gallery open. And whatever that man's name was, I remember he
was-- [The curator's name was Horay Zozayong; he was the Director of the
Emileh Museum in Seoul.]
JMB:
Oh, yes.
WYF:
The parade of people in and out of the museum was always incredibly
interesting.
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
Including the woman who ran [the travel agency used by the Museum],
Crown International, [Harriet Moore].
JMB:
Oh, yes. Yes. And her son--oh, I can't remember, but we'll fill that in
later, yes. [Her son's name is Paul Moore; he worked with her in the
travel company.] Yes, well, let's see--the Festival--I just wanted
to--I'm going to want to talk about the 1984 [Olympics] Festival which,
of course, was amazing. But I wanted to mention that, among other
additions to the Festival weekend, you began to have a “Maskerade” Ball.
And I think the . . . [1979] one was the first of those. [The first
Maskerade Ball was held in the Pacific Design Center.] That coincided
with the opening of Gallery Three in Santa Monica Place. And it was
either that year or the following year that the Ball was held [at Santa
Monica Place], do you remember? [The second Ball was held at Santa
Monica Place in October 1980 in the evening after the mall had closed.]
WYF:
I think the first ball was held at Myron's Ballroom. [The last two Balls
were held in Myron's Ballroom in 1981 and 1982.]
JMB:
Oh, OK. I know that Myron's Ballroom was one of the venues.
WYF:
. . . . And Shan did a lot to gather the contemporary arts community. .
. Not just contemporary craft, but the contemporary arts community, to
attend. And it was a wildly successful event. And then when we opened
[Gallery 3] in Santa Monica Place; Darcy Gelber was working with us. She
was a Board member, who was assigned to the Mask Festival. And she
helped to negotiate the use of Santa Monica Place for the ball [in
1980], which was quite wild. I remember dancing in the fountain in
masked attire with Rod Punt, who was our [contact with the L.A. Cultural
Affairs Department].
JMB:
The City or the County?
WYF:
--City Cultural Affairs Director, Associate Director at the time.
JMB:
Yeah. Now, that was the one, I think, that had--there was a contest for
the best costume and mask. And I think that was the one at Santa Monica
Place that somehow, I--maybe Darcy was responsible for this, but David
Hockney, Rudi Gernreich, and Rose Slivka were judges?
WYF:
Yeah, that's right. Yes.
JMB:
I don't know. I didn't really think that much about it at the time, but
in looking back on it, that's pretty amazing.
WYF:
It's historically profound and relevant.
JMB:
Yeah, that was really fun.
WYF:
And that coincided--the reason that they became judges is that there was
a contemporary arts mask exhibit that opened in Santa Monica Place [The
Mask as Metaphor; opened November 30, 1980 in the space occupied by
CAFAM—Gallery 3].
JMB:
That's right . . . . That Shan had curated.
WYF:
And Shan curated that. And it was a remarkable--
JMB:
It was.
WYF:
It was a remarkable and beautiful exhibit. And David Hockney came into
the relationship with the Festival and the Ball through that exhibit.
And Rose Slivka [who was the editor of the important American Craft
Council magazine, Craft Horizons], through contemporary craft. And Rudi
Gernreich through design and costume design.
01:25:00
JMB:
Rudi Gernreich was actually
--he was an early supporter of the Museum. And I remember him very well
because he was the first public user of the CAFAM library. He--and I
even remember what he wanted to know. He wanted to know about--it wasn't
anything, you know, sophisticated like textiles from exotic places--it
was bread dough, bread dough sculpture. He wanted to know the recipe for
making dough sculpture. . . .
WYF:
That's interesting, Joan.
JMB:
Yeah.
WYF:
But I think what we uncover and what's so delightful [is] that the
feeling, the affect that we have towards all that, is that we're of
creative spirit and [with] the relational nature of everyone involved,
that there were deep relationships formed. And I remember one time like
in the mid-'80s, counting how many people I knew who had died of AIDS
that were woven into the fabric of our life at the museum.
JMB:
Well, of course, [Ian Barrington?] was one of those.
WYF:
There's Ian Barrington and Doug Edwards.
JMB:
And Doug, yes.
WYF:
And multiple, multiple members in the multi--ethnic communities, which
wasn't popularized—[I remember] that people thought that the AIDS
epidemic was confined to West Hollywood. And it wasn't really recognized
that it was an entire city phenomenon.
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
Yeah, another chapter.
JMB:
Well, there's so much to remember. I do want to talk about the--I tend
to refer to them as the Today shows, but of course, they were much more
than shows. And they were citywide celebrations. And there were several.
Were you involved with the Japan Today program?
WYF:
Very peripherally.
JMB:
Yeah.
WYF:
So, I'd learned about the Today program and the process, which then
expanded greatly with Egypt Today.
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
And Egypt Today, I was intimately involved with.
JMB:
Well, I especially wanted you to talk about Egypt Today. So--yes, that
was very special.
WYF:
So, the--these programs evolved from a National Endowment for the
Humanities grant. And it was the national, the series of national
exhibits, that were hosted in various cities.
JMB:
In major cities.
WYF:
Usually Washington, D.C., Houston, San Francisco, and Los Angeles. And
the cities would shift slightly based upon which Today program it was.
So the Egypt Today program evolved [in Los Angeles] not unlike the Mask
Festival in that we held community meetings with other arts
institutions, whether they were galleries, museums, county art centers
or city art centers. So, it was the City and the County together that
were involved in the Today programs. And they consisted of everything
from art exhibits to music and dance performances, to academic
presentations and panel discussions at USC, UCLA, Occidental, and other
schools. So it was an integration of the arts and sciences in all sorts
of presentations, including presentations at the World Affairs Council
by Madame Sadat.
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
All the museums and all the local schools were involved in hosting some
of the Today program, of Egypt Today. And I recall going to Washington.
JMB:
Oh, did you?
WYF:
With Patrick [Ela]. Patrick and I went to Washington to work at the
Embassy to facilitate the smooth development of Egypt Today in Los
Angeles. [Egypt Today took place in Los Angeles in March – April 1981.]
JMB:
I didn't realize you had--I knew that Patrick was the sort of ostensible
Coordinator or Director of the Los Angeles celebration, but I also knew
that you did a lot of the footwork.
WYF:
Well, he and Edith were the Directors, and I was the Coordinator. So,
the structure that [had] evolved with the Mask Festival worked well for
the Today programs.
JMB:
Yes.
01:30:00
WYF:
And there was a national coordinating body. So, there were
people from the national organization that came to Los Angeles and
worked with us. Mostly, for Egypt Today, it evolved out of the Embassy.
So, we worked with Mohammad Haki, who was the Director of
Information--Press Information--for Egypt.
JMB:
And how did the visit from Madame Sadat come about and--she also came to
CAFAM.
WYF:
She came to CAFAM. She received a Key to the City. Mayor Bradley came
and honored her. Caroline Ahmanson hosted a tea in her peach
taffeta-upholstered-wall apartment on top of the Beverly Hills Hotel.
Not Beverly [Hills]--Beverly Wilshire. [Willow recalled later than Mme.
Sadat pulled her over and asked her if she was Egyptian!]
JMB:
[Beverly] Wilshire Hotel, yeah.
WYF:
So, there was a tea. The Getty hosted a dinner, a phenomenal sit-down
dinner--
JMB:
That was --
WYF:
--in their gallery. That's what is now [the Getty Villa, which reopened
in 2006].
JMB:
At the Malibu Getty.
WYF:
--what is now the Malibu and it was the only Getty at the time.
JMB:
Right. . . And this was just a few months before her husband was
assassinated.
WYF:
She spoke at the World Affairs Council, so there was a World Affairs
Council presentation and luncheon. Traveling with her was the Minister
of Education, the Minister of Agriculture, and the Minister of Press
Information.
JMB:
Egypt's Ministers?
WYF:
Yes, Egypt's Ministers.
JMB:
Wow.
WYF:
And I remember riding in the back of the limousine with the Minister of
Agriculture, who was a woman, and she put her arm through my arm and
pulled me close to her body and asked me all sorts of questions about
cultural life in the United States. And I felt that they were deeply,
they were very deeply-related people. And before any business, when we
went to the Egyptian Embassy, before any business could ensue, we sat
for three hours chatting and drinking tea and talking about our
families. And mundane, seemingly mundane things. But I realized then the
value of evolving a relationship and that only when a relationship had
developed could any negotiations occur.
JMB:
Yes. I think that our politicians sometimes forget that--often forget
that.
WYF:
But Patrick was so good because he could--he was good at negotiating
those conversations and relationships.
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
Evolving a sense of humor.
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
And I know that things really got off to a good start once the Egyptians
and our team were laughing together over both our foibles. But the
Egyptians could laugh at us and we could laugh at them. And everyone
enjoyed the banter.
JMB:
Yes. Patrick was very, very good at that...
WYF:
He was very skilled at that.
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
Very diplomatic.
JMB:
And he led a tour of Egypt in that year. You didn't [go on that tour]?
WYF:
That is so lucky, no, I just got to go to the airport and welcome Madame
Sadat when she came off the plane.
JMB:
Oh, well. That was pretty wonderful, I'm sure.
WYF:
It was very remarkable. The whole event was remarkable. I remember there
were panels--there were panelists from Egyptian and Near-East scholars
at UCLA and we came in contact with highly esteemed members of [the]
academic community during that time.
JMB:
And your familiarity with UCLA helped in that respect, too, I'm sure.
There were two exhibitions that were mounted to coincide with Egypt
Today: Akhmim Embroideries, and a photography show, contemporary photos.
[Egypt Today: Embroidered Pictures from Akhmim and Contemporary
Photographs of Egypt; opened at the same time March 20, 1981]
WYF:
At CAFAM?
JMB:
Yes. Were you involved with that at all or did Shan handle that?
WYF:
I think Shan worked on that for the most part. I don't--I'm sure I had
something to do with it, but I don't recall. I just don't know.
JMB:
OK. Well, yeah, I may have been out of town or something but I don't
have much of a memory of that either. I think they were up for a
relatively short time. [The Egyptian exhibitions closed April 19, 1981.]
WYF:
They were up for the duration of the Festival which was a month-long
festival. There were exhibits at the County Museum.
JMB:
The Egypt Today Festival?
01:35:00
WYF:
Right, at Egypt Today. The Fayoum [mummy] portraits that the Getty owns
were showcased . . . there were contemporary arts exhibits. I remember
there was something at MOCA.
JMB:
Yeah, all of the museums and cultural institutions were involved
somehow. I know there was an elaborate [printed] program of everything.
Were you involved with getting those going?
WYF:
I was very involved. It was not unlike [at] the Museum. You know how we
were talking about how each of us had our arena and we worked to the
maximum of our capacity and beyond, at the Museum? That was true, but
that was true at all of the [venues].
JMB:
Citywide.
WYF:
Citywide. So that when we hosted the Mask Festival or were coordinators
. . . of Scandinavia Today, that energy came forth from those
institutions also.
JMB:
Yes. Well, what a wonderful opportunity for you to get to know more
[about other L.A. institutions]. Of course, you'd already gotten to know
a lot of organizations through the Festival of Masks, but you probably
got to know some organizations like MOCA or whatever.
WYF:
Yeah, those that I wouldn't have otherwise.
JMB:
Otherwise, yeah. All right. Now we're going to go back to the Festival
of Masks for a bit just to talk about the 1982 Festival, which was the
Festival where the documentary film was made. [Actually, it was the 1981
Festival that was shot for the film; it was produced in 1982.] And that
was Dorn Hetzel and Rivian Bell, who produced that film. And I'm just
wondering, of course, to what extent you were involved with the
organization [of the film]? I mean, you would have, as the Coordinator
of the Festival, you would have had to have been?
WYF:
Well, yeah, Dorn's father, I believe, was active at CalArts [California
Institute of the Arts].
JMB:
Yes, he was the Provost.
WYF:
He was Provost at CalArts. And Bob Fitzpatrick was the [CalArts]
President. Bob sat on our Board.
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
And he and Edith had a very good relationship.
JMB:
And she was on their Board for a while at least. Yes.
WYF:
So, Bob--I think it was through Bob and . . . [Ralph], Dorn's father,
that Dorn was hired as the filmmaker. There were other filmmakers
considered. For example, [Rico Lebrun's son, David].
JMB:
Oh, so the idea of--having a documentary was--came first?
WYF:
Yeah, we had a very extensive slideshow that we used and took out into
the community.
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
And after a while we felt, wouldn't it be wonderful if there were a film
about the Festival that we could use instead? So, grants were written
and money was acquired. And Rico Lebrun's son, . . . [David Lebrun], was
another filmmaker who was considered. But because of the CalArts
alliance, Dorn was chosen. So, Dorn did produce a film. [The film is
called Magic in the Afternoon; it was produced in 1982 from footage shot
during the 1981 Festival of Masks.] . . . .
WYF:
I know that we were intimately involved.
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
With the production of the film.
JMB:
Yes, you would have had to have worked with them to plan the shots [and
the locations].
WYF:
We insisted that they attend the community meetings, so that there was
[a context]. They--I don't know that they incorporated that footage. I
do recall that they filmed them.
JMB:
. . . . It was a 28-minute film. And had good production values. The
film and some video copies are in the archive at UCLA. Well, I think we
should move along. I definitely want to talk about the 1984 Festival,
which was different in a lot of ways. So, can you tell us how it was
different from the others?
01:40:00
WYF:
The 1984 Festival was selected as an Olympic Arts Event. And it
therefore needed to occur during the summer of the 1984 Olympics, which
meant that we moved the two-day event that was normally held the end of
October to the summer. So, it was held in July [1984] and it became a
three-day event. And we moved away from our little . . . Hancock Park
[across the street from CAFAM] and the event was held in [the] Pan
Pacific Park, which was--had been under construction and was newly
opened. And we worked with the County [in] the year leading up to it to
make it--well, first of all,
to make sure that [the park] would be ready and done, but also to help
plan the security and everything else that was involved in planning that
event, which was--it was probably double or triple the size of the
normal Festival event.
JMB:
Oh, yes.
WYF:
And as we recall, the athletes from the Soviet Bloc countries were
pulled from the games. [In response to the American-led boycott of the
1980 Summer Olympics in Moscow,14 Eastern-bloc countries, including the
Soviet Union, Cuba, and East Germany boycotted the 1984 Games; only
Romania elected to attend.]
JMB:
Oh, that's right.
WYF:
So [except for Romania] the [Eastern-bloc] athletes did not participate
in the games. But it was determined that the masks from those countries
could be represented. So, masks did come from the Soviet Bloc countries
and were included in the exhibitions.
JMB:
Yes, fabulous.
WYF:
There was an exhibition in the museum that occurred at the same time as
the [1984] Festival. [Masks in Motion; opened June 5, 1984.] So we had
the masks from those countries represented, even though the athletes
couldn't participate. And we invited masked dancers, musicians, [and]
performers from each of the countries participating in the Olympic
Games.
JMB:
So, it became--
WYF:
--truly an international festival of masks.
JMB:
And that's when the name changed?
WYF:
To the International Festival of Masks.
JMB:
Yes, yes. So, it was in July instead of in October. And it was in a
different location and it was three days instead of two days.
WYF:
And instead of 120 volunteers, we had 380.
JMB:
Wow.
WYF:
Three-hundred and eighty volunteers.
JMB:
Oh, my, and every one of them was very busy the whole time.
WYF:
We were all very busy. I remember--I wasn't married, but I was seeing
[Tom Friedman, CEO of Euphoria Productions], who [later] became my
husband. And he came to me and said, "Is there anything I can do to
help?" And I said, "See that cart over there, if you wouldn't mind, take
these plastic bags and go around and pick up trash."
JMB:
That was your introduction to Tom?
WYF:
I was engaging him in trash duty.
JMB:
Boy, everyone should have to--every husband-to-be should have to
audition like that. (Laughs) That's great.
WYF:
He is very good at taking out the trash [among other things].
JMB:
That's very good.
WYF:
But it was--yeah, it was a huge endeavor. And [there were]
extraordinary, extraordinary performances [and help on many levels from
the generous-hearted communities].
JMB:
Oh, yes.
WYF:
I remember the Eskimos coming with their big hoops and doing hoop dances
[and a blanket toss] right on the grounds. And--oh, it was so moving,
too, really moving—[and the Festival always was moving]. And when we
were at Hancock Park, I remember there was a man from the Ivory Coast,
[Maurice Dosso], who was an instructor of dance in the community and all
of his students--
JMB:
In the L.A. community?
WYF:
In the L.A. community. His students participated in the Mask Festival
and in the parade. And [during the Festival] I remember going up to my
office one day and he was sitting outside and I gave him some water and
I asked him if he was OK. And he said he was, and I could tell that he'd
been crying. And I asked him what was going on? And he said, "It's just
like being at home in the village and I'm homesick."
JMB:
Oh--oh my.
WYF:
"It was just like being at the village." That reminds me of something
else that I--I don't even know if it's on my resumé or if it is very
much related to the museum, but it's related to the caring nature of
people in the arts at the time. I was on the Board of the Orinoco Dance
Foundation and [the Foundation] hosted the first [United States] tour of
Aborigines. And they came to Los Angeles. And the women and the men were
homesick. And so I called John Outterbridge, who at the time was
Director of the Watts Towers Art Center, and asked him if they [the
Aboriginal dancers] could come and perform for his community. Well, not
only did he say yes, but he arranged for all the [Watts Towers Art
Center] classes of African dancers to put on a performance for . . . the
Aboriginals. So, we went to the Watts Towers Art Center and everyone sat
on the floor and all [of the Watts Art Center dancers], from little
itty-bitty, two-year-old children, to old women, were performing these
African dances for these people. And at one point, I looked up and I saw
that the little children were sitting in the laps of the Aboriginal
women. And then the Aborigines were inspired . . . to perform for the
[Watts Art Center] dancers that had come.
JMB:
Wow.
01:45:00
WYF:
So, it was--a real exchange of humanity--of people in their
heart-centered selves receiving and--out of the gift of receiving--then
sharing their own creative endeavors. And I would say that [kind of
thing] . . . was true of each
Mask Festival, including the [one that was part of the 1984] Olympic
Arts Festival, which, because of its size and enormity and new location,
put stresses and strains on everyone. But the [L.A.] communities
themselves suddenly felt--well, "We're not just sharing for each other
and our city exchange, we now are hosting the Olympics!" And so, every
community member stepped forward--
JMB:
-- [and] really outdid themselves.
WYF:
They really did.
JMB:
Well, I do want to talk a little bit about some of those stresses and
strains, because as wonderful as that Festival was--and it was
incredible--I remember the torch actually came through [the park]; it
came [right past where we volunteers were standing].
WYF:
It did. It ran through Pan Pacific Park.
JMB:
Yes. It was great. But afterwards, there were some financial issues. . .
. it had to do with the different venue and the fact that you had to, I
believe--oh, and admission was charged for the first time. It had always
been free. But the decision was made to charge admission and that meant
that a fence had to be erected, which--
WYF:
Oh, what's interesting is that there was--in working with the Olympic
Arts Committee--the Olympic Arts Committee had to work with the overall
Olympics Committee.
JMB:
Ah, yes.
WYF:
And the Olympics Committee had security as a primary concern. It was--
JMB:
And that's understandable with some of the--
WYF:
--understandable, given some of the incidents in past Olympic events.
There was the shooting of the Israeli team [in 1972].
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
Et cetera, so they--so the Olympics Committee wanted us to ensure the
safety of everyone present [at the Festival of Masks]. And they insisted
that a gate [be installed], that the grounds be fenced. So part of--so
in order to fence it, how do you control access? You control it by
ticket sales. So, we . . . supported the event financially through
ticket sales, but it originated as a security concern from the Olympics
[Committee].
JMB:
I see.
WYF:
The Olympics Committee, being an international organization not familiar
with the community arts organizing and the community heart-based way of
relating with each other, didn't understand that previous history of
relationships. They had their own concerns. And it was far greater than
just putting up a fence. . . . They had to receive the names of all the
participants; they had to vet them. A lot of that was done in secret. We
didn't tell people that there was that kind of security. There were--we
had plain-clothed security on the periphery. It was very--I found it
really anxiety-producing.
JMB:
Yes, I mean, in a sense, just the fence by itself is sort of--
WYF:
--created a barrier.
JMB:
-- [it was] anathema to the whole idea of the Festival, although, as you
are explaining it, I do understand that better.
WYF:
And once you go through the fence and you enter into the bowl of the
grounds of Pan Pacific Park, you forget about the fence, because
suddenly you're mingling with the community, who is dressed up, and the
performers who are dressed up. We--and Tom Vinetz [and Steve Weinberg]
photographed the [1986] Festival of Masks. [Weinberg may have
photographed the 1984 Festival also.]
JMB:
Yes. Wonderful photographer.
WYF:
He [Vinetz] was very good at photographing the audience, as well as the
participants.
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
And I recall looking through those [slides] and being astounded at how
many audience participants came dressed in outrageous costumes and face
paint.
JMB:
Oh, yes. That was really, as you mentioned in talking about the
Maskerade Ball, that was an opportunity for people who were not maybe
otherwise that interested in folk art to get involved with the Mask
Festival. And yes, a lot of artists were very creative. Those
photographs are quite wonderful. So, the fence, though--CAFAM had to pay
for that fence, I believe?
01:50:00
WYF:
They had to pay for the fencing. And the expenses [related to security]
that we were not accustomed to incurring also came from our budget. But
we had funding from the [National] Endowment for the Arts. We had
funding from the Olympic Arts Festival.
Funding from the California Arts [Council] and from the City and the
County. So the City and the County, together, shared in the expense. But
it was overwhelming.
JMB:
Yes. And I know that Patrick and Edith were quite upset that in the end,
I believe (although they did request remuneration for some of those
[security] expenses, which as you've explained, were required by the
Olympics Committee . . . .) CAFAM was not reimbursed for those expenses.
And another expense that we had, which was new--was a much more
elaborate program book. It was a beautiful book that Max King designed
with wonderful color photography. We'd always had a [Festival] program
book in the past that was attractive, but it wasn't nearly as elaborate.
And the decision was made to try to recoup some of that cost. It was
partly intended to be a catalog for the exhibition.
WYF:
It was a catalog for the exhibit. It was [also] a listing of all the
performers with explanations about each of the presentations.
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
So, yeah, it was sold as an Olympic souvenir program.
JMB:
Yes, and it was only five dollars. But we didn't sell enough of them to
recoup the expense. And so that was a problem. There was one other
aspect to having it in 1984 and having the date changed to the summer;
as a result, the decision was made to skip the 1983 festival and go
to--I guess, most of us thought that that was a one-time thing. But then
the decision was made to make it biennial--every two years. And in fact,
it didn't return to being an annual [event] until I think it was 1988.
It was a biennial [from 1984 – 1990]. And I was wondering if you were
involved [in that decision]? It was certainly understandable, you must
have--everyone was quite exhausted at the end of the '84 [Festival]--and
you needed that '83 year [to prepare]. It was really just a
year-and-a-half in [order] to prepare.
WYF:
So, we did [need] the [previous year], '83 . . . to prepare for . .
.1984. And we continued with the community meetings and the workshops
[during 1983 and 1984].
JMB:
Oh, yes.
WYF:
And all of that. And then we hosted it in '84. I thought that we held
it, also, in '85. . . .
JMB:
No, it was not held in '85 or in '87.
WYF:
But it was held in '86? [1986 was the last year that Willow was
Director; Aaron Paley directed the 1988 Festival.]
JMB:
'86 and '88 [directed by Aaron Paley], and then after--I can't remember
about '89, I don't have my timeline. [No Festival was held in 1989; Teri
Knoll directed the 1990 Festival; in 1991, the Festival was then
restored as an annual event.] But anyway, it did go back to being an
annual. But it was a biennial for a while [because of the extraordinary
time and staff resources required], related to the '84 [Festival].
WYF:
Well--and also we had Scandinavia Today [in February-March 1983] . . . .
A lot of our energy went into Scandinavia Today and therefore not into
the festival [which would otherwise have been held in 1983].
JMB:
That's a very good point. And you coordinated all the citywide
activities for that?
WYF:
For Scandinavia Today.
JMB:
Yeah. It was similar to Egypt Today.
WYF:
We had five countries instead of one. And we had--
JMB:
Princesses to go with it?
WYF:
Many princesses--we did. We had highnesses and princesses there.
JMB:
Yes. Patrick, I think, got a kick out of escorting some of those
princesses.
WYF:
I think he did.
01:55:00
JMB:
That was the last of those kinds of things that you were involved with.
So--at the end of the '84 Festival, around that time, Edith retired.
She--I don't--remember that there was a--you know--there may have been a
retirement party that the staff was not involved with, but I think it
was only after-the-fact that most of the staff realized that she had
retired. And another change was that Shan Emanuelli and her husband left
to take jobs in New York. And at that point--and I think related to
Shan's leaving--you took over as Coordinator of Exhibitions. That wasn't
exactly the same as being Curator, but you had to be in charge of the
overall planning for exhibitions. Have you blotted that out of your
mind? (Laughter)
WYF:
I completely blocked that out. I know it happened. I don't--and I
remember sitting in meetings. And really facilitating and coordinating
in ways that I had before. But everybody was very--as you noted
earlier--we were one-person departments. And everyone worked very, very
independently and capably. And Edith, while she [was] retired, was not
gone.
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
The arm of her influence was still quite present. But I do recall
sitting in meetings with Max and Laurie. Remember, Laurie, who was
[Max's] assistant for a while?
JMB:
Oh, yes. Yes.
WYF:
And others as we worked on exhibition coordination. But again, I recall
being mostly busy with Scandinavia Today and involved in the series of
[related] exhibitions. . . . And with the Mask Festival because we did
have a fairly involved Mask Festival in 1986. And by that time--I was
about to deliver a baby at that time.
JMB:
Yes, I was going to say somewhere along the line, I think you got
married and had a baby.
WYF:
So, she was due--she was born three days after that last Festival.
JMB:
When was that--the '86 Festival?
WYF:
After the '86 Festival.
JMB:
[Her name is] Maia?
WYF:
Maia. And I was in walking labor, so I was--every once in a while--I
would just kind of swoon.
JMB:
Oh, my gosh.
WYF:
And I remember the guys from the African booth coming over to me and
saying, "We just want you to know," and he pointed at the food booth. He
said, "See that booth over there? See those big kettles?" I said, "Yeah,
what are you guys doing?" He said, "That's hot water for you. If you go
into labor, we have a bed behind our booth and we're prepared to deliver
your baby, if you go into labor."
JMB:
Oh, my gosh. And she was delivered--?
WYF:
She was delivered on the Thursday following the Sunday, so it was
Thursday, Friday--I mean, Thursday—no--Thursday. So, Wednesday night.
Two days, three days later.
JMB:
Wow. Now, before that, you did get to curate another show, the L.A.
Collects Functional Fantasy Furniture? [Opened September 3, 1985.]
WYF:
Oh, yeah, I remember.
JMB:
Yeah, tell about that. That was in '85. September of '85.
WYF:
Yeah.
JMB:
That was a fun show.
WYF:
It was a really fun show. And the theme allowed me to really function
the same way that I did for the Mask Festival. I went out and found
artists, and interviewed artists and looked at material and selected
those that most represented the theme and--
JMB:
Let me just interrupt you to ask you about the theme. And that whole
idea of--I think it was called "functional art." Talk about that a
little bit?
WYF:
So, it was a cross-over between contemporary and folk art. Because as we
know, in folk art, artists create objects that in many ways are
functional.
JMB:
Oh, yeah.
WYF:
It's functional art. And so this was--we selected primarily--I think all
of the artists selected were contemporary artists.
JMB:
Yes. I don't think of it as being folk art.
WYF:
No, it wasn't folk art. But there was an element, for example, there was
a table made out of a surf board.
JMB:
Oh, yes.
WYF:
Or there was another person who made wooden sculptures that were
replicas of a phantasmagoric imagination not unlike Disneyland, called
the E--it was called the E-Train Table and--
JMB:
There was a chair that had--
WYF:
Grass.
JMB:
-- [artificial] grass [on the seat].
WYF:
That was called the Lawn Chair.
JMB:
Well, it was an amazing show. And I think it was pretty popular. There
was--because there was a lot of interest [in functional art at the
time]. There was a store in Santa Monica for quite a while. It's closed
now, but it specialized in that kind of thing.
WYF:
In functional [art]--I remember David Hertz also.
02:00:00
JMB:
The architect, yes.
WYF:
Having items there. Yeah, that was a wonderful opportunity for me to
talk with contemporary artists. And [it happened] in similar ways that
we engaged the folk artists and the [contemporary] artists in the
community. And of course, by that time, the museum had a
well-established name in the [contemporary art] community after having
exhibited Murals of Aztlan, et cetera. [Murals of Aztlan: Street
Painters of "East Los," opened April 28, 1981.]
JMB:
Oh, yes.
WYF:
And working with contemporary Chicano artists.
JMB:
Yes. And [Chicano artist] Frank Romero, [who curated Murals of Aztlan],
I don't know if he was on the Board at that time; he was on the Board
later, had been involved in several different ways with the museum. [He
was married to the Wyle's daughter, Nancy; they have a daughter.]
Patrick [Ela]--after Edith retired--Patrick had always had a special
interest in design--both architecture and product design. And he
decided--this was really a contribution that he made--to add design to
the [Museum] program, which had previously been pretty much just folk
art and contemporary craft. And it was somewhat controversial, that
decision. There were, I know at least among the staff--and I think among
the Board, too--there were discussions about [it]. What did you think
about that--about that idea?
WYF:
I thought it was strategic. I thought that he figured that by
incorporating design into the arc of our concerns that he would be able
to more effectively fundraise money for the Museum.
JMB:
Oh.
WYF:
I think it was legitimate. Design is part of folk art.
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
Design is part of contemporary art. Design is part of textile--
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
--textile design.
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
It made sense and continues to make sense to me. But I do know that it
was--at that time, that we were beginning to get a sense that the
coffers of largess that had supported us in the '70s and '80s were not
going to be supporting us quite in the same way. The art world had
become more dominated by corporate concerns.
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
We were having to adjust our museum [goals], the content, the placement
of objects even, were determined by corporate funders. And I think that
Patrick [realized] . . . that design was sought after by evolving
companies, [was a topic of concern, was an entry point to understanding
art].
JMB:
Yes, it was becoming more fashionable . . . . I think you're absolutely
right. And I think Patrick was very prescient. I hadn't thought of it in
that way before. I was one of those that were skeptical at first. But
the more I thought about it, the more I thought that really this idea of
bringing design in to almost be like an umbrella over the other [areas
made sense] . . . . In some people's minds contemporary craft , which
was aligned more with contemporary art, and folk art, which was aligned
more with tradition--traditional culture, were like separate ends of the
spectrum. And design, I think--the idea of bringing design into the
program really tied everything together philosophically. But I think
that it also--you're right--it also made funding perhaps more
attractive. Although (laughs), that did work for a while, I think, but--
WYF:
But not quite to the extent that one had hoped.
JMB:
Yeah.
WYF:
And funding sources were drying up.
02:05:00
JMB:
Yes, there were other factors, economic factors, that were at work
that--that I think came into play. So,
Maia was born in '86 and did you go to working part-time at that point?
WYF:
When she was born, I had [maternity] leave until April. She was born in
the end of October. And I had leave until April. And I was very involved
with the ArtTable [organization].
JMB:
Oh, yes. [I was a member of ArtTable—and so was Shan Emanuelli.]
WYF:
. . . . And I stayed busy with ArtTable. And I returned to work at the
Museum part-time and then realized that I probably would be better off
not working part-time but working as a [paid] consultant. So that's when
I began doing consultation work. I worked with the Philharmonic and with
the Music Center and with the Museum.
JMB:
And what did you do with the Philharmonic and with the--
WYF:
The Philharmonic was interested in bridging to the [ethnic] communities
and they wanted to know how to do it. I also consulted with the Field
Museum in Chicago, who wanted to do something similar to the Mask
Festival. They wanted to bridge to the ethnic communities in their
neighborhoods. So, I consulted with organizations for a while until--.
So during all of this work and engagement at the Museum, I was involved
in Jungian Analysis and still in James [Kirsch's] Monday evening
seminars. And my interest in psychology, I think, began to come more . .
. [into focus for me]. I loved working on the Mask Festival, and I loved
the intimate relationships that I had with people in the community. But
as the Museum became dominated by corporate concerns, I felt that the
soul of our work was shifting. And I wanted to stay working at a soulful
level. So that's when I decided that I wanted to return to school and
pursue that which I had abandoned in the '70s when I went into Ethnic
Arts [at UCLA]. And so then my--what had been my hobby became my
profession. And now art is my hobby and psychology is my profession.
JMB:
But how wonderful that you've been able to keep [both] those threads in
your life, all of this time. So when did you finally leave CAFAM?
WYF:
I think I left CAFAM probably officially—[it] was after I served as an
advisor to the Festival that Teri coordinated.
JMB:
Yes, Teri Knoll.
WYF:
Teri Knoll coordinated [the 1990 Festival of Masks] and I was advisor to
her. And after that, I was an advisor in a much more obscure way. I
think I still [may] have worked a little bit with the Folk Art Council
from time to time, but I wasn't—I think by 1990--in the fall of 1990, I
entered the psychology program at Pacifica Graduate Institute. And by
that time, I was brokering, I remember brokering [arranging] with Teri
[Knoll] and Edith [Wyle] to find lecturers for the [Festival of Masks]
lecture series. And so I was asking psychologists and people at school,
etc., to participate in this. And it just suddenly didn't feel right any
more.
JMB:
There was a natural progression.
WYF:
Yeah, it shifted. And luckily, I remained very close with Edith until
her death, and am [still] very close; I feel a part of the [Wyle]
family. I'm very close with Nancy [Romero, the Wyles' daughter]. And
close with Patrick [Ela] and his boys. Our children were all born about
the same time--the Tuttles' children and the Elas' and I think the three
of us, are still--our kids are close . . . .
JMB:
Oh, that's great.
WYF:
And you know, at least once or twice a year, we have a gathering of
everyone, but--
JMB:
Oh, that's wonderful. [Can you] talk a little bit more about Edith?
WYF:
Oy.
JMB:
It's hard to say just "a little bit" about Edith, I know.
02:10:00
WYF:
I know it. I mean, I think about--how extraordinary it was to work with
her. How much she drew her—us--all into her circle. How greatly and
profoundly she valued each one of us. Each of us. She was awed and
inspired by our skills and capacities. She loved the library. It was a
gem for her. And she admired what you did. And she admired
what Max did. And certainly, there were fights from here to Kingdom Come
--
JMB:
Oh, with everyone.
WYF:
--about the details over all of that. And I recall, for a while, my
office was in the cottage.
JMB:
That's right.
WYF:
When I was pregnant, my office was in the cottage.
JMB:
I remember.
WYF:
Because I remember driving to work and being nauseous and having to run
in and throw up. (Laughter) Or when my--when it was discovered that she
[Maia] was breech, and I was burning joss sticks on my toes to get her
to turn around. And it smelled like marijuana and people could smell it
all the way down [the street]. And Edith and Patrick got out of their
car and sent somebody up to the cottage to find out what in hell I was
up to. Because they thought I was getting stoned in the--that little
wood-paneled room, you know, that little room [in the cottage].
JMB:
Oh, yeah.
WYF:
--but I recall, at times, being in Edith's disfavor and being so
grateful that I could get out of the main building and either go into
the cottage or then [in November 1982] we moved across the street into
[the top floor of] that big building.
JMB:
[What we called the] Annex, yes.
WYF:
And just hiding out. You know, I'd figure, "Oh, good, thank God. I'm on
her shit list now, so I'm going to hide out and get work done."
JMB:
Yes. Yes, it was like being in the sun light or being in the shadow.
WYF:
Yeah, and so one was either in one or the other place, and it just sort
of rotated. I think I remember over the years realizing, "Oh, OK, so
this is--I'm just on her shit list now." So that's--it's what happened.
And so I remember, I recall that. And I recall how she would get over
it.
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
Either there would be a time where it would all disappear and then it
was lovely again.
JMB:
Sunshine again.
WYF:
But I do remember that she had a fetish about hair. And it was--and we
all had our hair cut frequently because Edith liked well-manicured hair.
JMB:
Wow, I don't remember that.
WYF:
You don't? I definitely remember.
JMB:
That's interesting. I noticed that you have grown your hair longer than
I remember . . . than it was at that time. . . . Because long hair was
pretty fashionable at that time, at least in the late '70s and early
'80s [and I wore my hair very long]. But yes, Edith--had an
extraordinary personality. It was very magnetic and [we] wanted [to
please her]--
WYF:
And compelling.
JMB:
--you wanted to be--but you--she did respect you. I mean, not just you
personally--she did respect you personally--but she--
WYF:
She held respect for us.
JMB:
She respected us when we stood up to her, also, I think.
WYF:
It was a relief to her when we did. Because it was a sign that we could
carry even greater loads of work. (Laughs)
02:15:00
JMB:
Oh, Lord, I think you're right. Well, it was--you were not on the staff
during those last--the last days. Well, there was so much that went on
after you left. But you did stay friends with everyone. And you were in
L.A., although you did move to Carpinteria at one point. And I'm just
wondering what you remember--I guess this would be from the point of
view of a former staff member--about those days when we were in the May
Company, and then we moved from the May Company to the building on the
corner, next-door to the Museum. And there were, for a while, there were
these grandiose plans for this Museum Tower that [the developer], Wayne
Ratkovich, was going to provide for us. And that didn't work out. And
then this new plan was made to join those two buildings together. Did
you know Craig Hodgetts and Ming Fung [the architects, Hodgetts + Fung]
at all, the architects [who worked on the merging of 5900 and 5814
Wilshire]? I know that the staff really was somewhat relieved, even
though we had all been very excited about the idea of this mixed-use
high-rise tower. We, some of us, wondered how in the world we were ever
going to maintain a facility so much bigger. So, the new idea of the two
buildings being tied together, you know, which was much--it seemed much
more manageable
. . . . Did you come to the opening of the renovated facility? There was
a big party. I thought I remembered that you were there?
WYF:
I was--I became--I felt I became at that time more of a donor member.
And I've never really thought about it like this because I'm so fond of
Patrick, but I do think that I felt really understood by Edith. I think
that she understood the multidisciplinary work and that she valued human
beings and the ethnic arts in a similar way. And not that we left at the
same time, but I think after Edith left, the emphasis of the museum
became much more contemporary. . . . And then by that time, I was
married and I had a baby, and I wasn't--I didn't have the energy to
expend on projects that I'd had before. And then I went to school and I
stayed as an advisor, but I--I really had shifted away a little bit. And
people who were taking things on needed to do it in their own way. And I
felt that I needed to step away and not feel the sense of ownership or
sense of vision.
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
And determine the events according to my vision in the way that I had
before. And then in 1992, I had cancer and I was very, very ill.
JMB:
Oh, I didn't know that.
WYF:
And yeah, I was just--I was incapacitated for two years. And ended up
moving, we had purchased property adjacent to the Wyle Ranch up in the
Sierras.
JMB:
Yes, yes.
WYF:
And I moved there with my daughter, while Tom stayed in L.A. to work.
And then we moved to Carpinteria [when] after two-and-a-half years . . .
Tom said, "I can't keep coming up there," and I didn't feel that I had
the energy or the strength to live in the city, so we moved to
Carpinteria. And then it just evolved--my life here [in Santa Barbara
and Carpinteria].
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
But I--I have a very deep fondness for the museum and would love to sit
on their Board. You know, that, as a vision, as someone who holds an
understanding of culture and an understanding of cross-cultural
differences. That's still very much a part of my sensibility. Most of
the people that I work with are, in one way or another, . . .
culturally-bound. Even if it's a politician that worked in politics in
Wisconsin, you know, there's the--
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
--the culturally-rootedness of that experience.
JMB:
It's not necessarily ethnic--ethnicity.
WYF:
But it's different--dealing with difference.
JMB:
Yes. You were really ahead of your time because [you focused on
differences of all kinds]--
WYF:
We all were [ahead of our time].
JMB:
Well, I guess, we were. And I suppose--
WYF:
I think we were, Joan.
JMB:
--Edith was responsible.
WYF:
I think we were all ahead of our time.
02:20:00
JMB:
But [eventually] it came . . . to a head. I remember the year 1992 in
particular because of--well, for several reasons. There was the Columbus
Quincentenary. We [the CAFAM staff] had all become much more involved
with the American Association of Museums and the Western Museums
Association and they were taking on challenges of--the challenges of
museums, in general, were just [beginning to be] seen as being related
to the way we had traditionally related to our membership and to the
people. More importantly, [how we related to] the people whose objects
we were exhibiting and displaying. And [in] 1992 we had the Rodney King
events and the riots--the civil unrest--that followed. And Patrick
had--another thing that I credit Patrick for
was that when the idea of the new museum was first presented to us [just
a couple of years earlier], he [had] said, "Now, I want all of you"--to
the staff--"to think of ways in which what you're doing now can be
expanded or changed to fit into this larger vision." And the idea that I
had was to develop--I thought of it at first as just a fellowship
program--but it really evolved into much more than that with the
[formation of the Center for the Study of Art and Culture—CSAC] National
Advisory Board and so on. And that was the vision that they--that the
[CSAC] National Advisory Board brought to our museum. And Edith and
Patrick attended those Advisory Board meetings. And the idea--I think
Edith was really worried when those meetings were first held. She was
really worried that we were going to have to do something [radically]
different. I think what we ended up doing really was just a deeper
consciousness of what we had been doing all along--I mean, she had
already talked about "the cultural context." I first heard that phrase
from her way back, you know. And I guess she got it from Pat Altman, at
the Fowler Museum. Anyway . . . the kinds of things that you and Edith
were doing were--and especially as exemplified by the Festival--were
what eventually the whole world was talking about . . . .
WYF:
Well, I'm amazed when I read the APA, the American Psychological
Association's Guide to Psychological Diversity. [The APA Presidential
Task Force on Enhancing Diversity was published in 2005.]
JMB:
Oh, I would love to read that.
WYF:
I am still amazed--no, you wouldn't like it.
JMB:
Oh.
WYF:
It still doesn't understand cultural diversity in its--in its positive
sense of community well-being in the way that we understood it in the
'70s and '80s at the Museum. It astounds me.
JMB:
It still treats it as a kind of dysfunction?
WYF:
As a dysfunction and as something that's impossible to overcome. So,
it's--I marvel at what we were--at what we were working with and what we
were able to express and contribute to the cultural life of the city at
that time.
JMB:
Yes. Well, there's no doubt, but what we did, and that you came along .
. . at the right time with just the right background. Well, is
there--we're going to wind up now. Is there anything else that you'd
like to say?
WYF:
I just wish we were at the Festival and we could go grab something to
eat at one of the food booths!
JMB:
Oh, well, of course, the whole world of restaurants has changed, in part
because of those kinds of events that brought [world cuisine to our
consciousness].
WYF:
Well, and the globalization of our life, in general.
JMB:
That's true, yes.
WYF:
We're so much more globally sensitive and aware and interested.
JMB:
Yes.
WYF:
And it probably is most beautifully expressed by the fusion restaurants,
the French-Saigonese or any of those amazing [combinations of cuisines
available now].
JMB:
And Edith really understood . . . [the importance of food to culture]
because she, of course, had a restaurant in her museum from the
beginning. [The Egg and The Eye restaurant was part of the original
gallery that opened in 1965 and when the gallery became a nonprofit
museum, the Craft and Folk Art Museum, the restaurant took on the name
of the former gallery, The Egg and The Eye; the restaurant closed
forever on June 30, 1989.]
WYF:
Yeah.
JMB:
Well, this has been great, Willow.
WYF:
Thank you, Joan.
JMB:
Thank you so much.
WYF:
It's a pleasure for me to remember so much more than I ever thought I
could.
JMB:
You certainly did. And you told us some stories that no one else has,
too. So, thank you very, very much. [End of session]