JB:
So today is Friday, October 9, (2009) and I'm in Santa Monica with Max
King, who worked as a graphic designer for eight years--at least eight
years--for the Craft and Folk Art Museum, and she’s agreed to talk with
me about her memories and experiences from that museum as well as some
of her personal history. And my name is Joan Benedetti. So, Max, let’s
start at the beginning. Can you tell us when and where you were born?
MK:
Ooh, really the beginning! Born in Springfield, Ohio, on (September 30),
1950. It’s sort of a little town . . . between Dayton and Cincinnati.
JB:
How long were you there?
MK:
We were there until I was about 11 or 12, . . . (When) we moved to
(another) little town called Greenville, which was probably my fondest
memory of the whole time I was in Ohio. We lived in a small subdivision
outside of town and right next to us there was a--it was farming out
there . . . a huge cornfield . . . , and then there was a wheat field
behind us. . . . Every time they would harvest the hay we’d go out and
hunt for the rabbits that were coming up out of their burrows, and we’d
go make houses in the cornfields and it was just a really wonderful
time. There was a group of Mennonites out in that area, so we had the
experience of seeing what that was about. Took the school bus to school,
lived in the snow, had a German Shepherd that would meet our school bus
every day. It was really great fun.
JB:
It's really important, I think, for everyone to have at least a little
bit of a Midwestern experience.
MK:
Oh yeah. Or even just a rural experience. You know, coming into the
city, it was--even though I was raised in a city--coming to California
and into the urban environments here was really an adjustment, no
question. . . . We moved from Ohio directly to the L.A. area and lived
in Pasadena, . . . (then) lived in Whittier for a period of time. Then
my family moved to San Diego . . . but I was older then, and I stayed
behind, and was actually in college at that point. I graduated from
Whittier High School, so we were all in the L.A. area from (age) 12 to
17 or so. . . . With the exception of a short time--six months--in San
Diego, when I went to a junior high school there . . . .
JB:
I wanted to ask . . . is Max your given name?
MK:
My given name is Marilyn and Marilyn is what I went by . . . up until
the time I was in college. But in college . . . I studied graphic design
and we had studio classes and we were all very much a family and a
community there and I just sort of had this reputation about “taking it
to the max,” you know, so that's--
JB:
I'm not surprised. It fits you so well.
MK:
It stuck.
JB:
But it is unusual for a given name, and so I wanted to ask you.
MK:
No, it would be (unusual). But once that nickname happened in college I
used it, because getting out of college, at that point was—what? --early
70s? --and going into graphic design studios and advertising offices, it
was still very much a man’s world . . . and a woman going in (with a
feminine name), they have . . . the advantage of knowing (ahead of time)
that a woman is coming in and (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) there's
a certain pre-disposition to how they approach you. But it was actually
to my advantage walking in--a woman named Max. It--
JB:
Gets your attention.
MK:
Yeah, and it changed the course of the conversation a little bit. So, I
continued to use it and "Marilyn" really fell away. The only people who
ever call me Marilyn (now) are my family.
JB:
So, you know what the connection was if somebody calls you Marilyn.
MK:
Oh, absolutely. It's either legal or it's a long time ago.
JB:
So, tell us just a little bit about your family. You had--
00:05:00
MK:
My father was born in Utah. My mother was born in Ohio. At the age of
14--it was during the Depression--my father found himself basically just
needing to leave (his home) and make his own way because (his) family
was in such a condition at that point that the kids just couldn't be
supported.
So anybody who could possibly work on their own did. He left and went to
work on a ranch in Nevada . . . . at 14 . . . (for) a couple of years,
and then he moved to Pasadena where he had an older sister . . . .
(Overlapping dialogue; inaudible) . . . . During school, he worked in an
apartment building there or a hotel. I think it was the Green Hotel as a
matter of fact, and he lived in the basement; he did whatever night-time
stuff he could do, and he went to high school during the day. . . . And
then he went into the navy as soon as he was able at 17 or 18. So that
was his upbringing. My mother was raised in a very traditional
Midwestern family in Ohio. Her father had a car dealership during the
Depression and they basically lost everything, but they managed to
survive it. So she was very much an Ohio and Midwestern girl. My father
had traveled and seen much of the world and came . . . (from) a
different place. But how they met is: my father, after getting out of
the Navy and after the war, he went . . . to Antioch College in Yellow
Springs and studied there, and then he met my mother and they married.
JB:
Did they meet at Antioch?
MK:
No, my mother was working as an accountant at the newspaper in
Springfield and my father was attending Antioch, and I don’t quite
know—oh--church. They met through church--that was what their
commonality was.
JB:
And you have at least a sister.
MK:
I have one sister, yes. One sister who is just a couple of years younger
than me and lives in San Francisco and she has been an artist all her
years. She studied sculpture at Cal State Long Beach, where I also
studied graphic design and she graduated from there with a degree in
sculpture. She married a sculptor and (although) she doesn't do
sculpture (now), hasn't done sculpture for many years, . . . art is
still sort of in her blood, so she applies it whenever she can.
JB:
Since both of you are artists, how did that come about? I mean was there
anything in either your mother or father’s background?
MK:
No background. No background at all. The only thing I can really
attribute it to is when we were living in Whittier and that was probably
at the point of-- it was elementary school. We lived twice in Whittier.
We went to San Diego and then came back and I was in high school there.
But in elementary school my mother sent us both for art lessons at a
small little institute. I think she just felt it was something that
would be nice to do for us, and for whatever reason, we seemed to be
attracted to it and really take to it, and that's the only thing I can
think of that would have any relationship to why we both ended up being
artists.
JB:
Maybe you had a special teacher there.
MK:
I don’t know. I think it just--for whatever reason--it was just a
natural calling for both of us. For me, so much of art is--I'm a
designer. I don’t classify myself as an artist—however, my sister I do,
of course. But it just seems to be a natural thing, it's a natural
inclination, it's in your blood, you've got the eye for it, you do
whatever. . . . Going through high school, I had an art teacher . . .
who I was close to and mentored me, and I knew my path from the time I
was a senior. I knew exactly what I was going to do, and did for all
these years.
JB:
It's great to figure that out when you're relatively young.
MK:
Much easier . . . .
00:10:00
JB:
So you ended up going to Whittier and then you went
down to CSU Long Beach . . . . (Overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
MK:
Yeah, I went to Cal State Long Beach when I graduated from Whittier High
School--
JB:
Was that because your sister had gone there or--?
MK:
No, my sister is actually younger than I (am), so she followed me. We
had some--I had some experience with Art Center (College of Design) and
I somewhat knew of CalArts, but at that point CalArts was pretty much
in--
JB:
Infancy, yeah.
MK:
But you know--my family comes from very humble means and . . . even
entertaining the thought of going to a private school was out of the
question for us. The whole idea of (applying for a)
scholarship--although I've been fortunate to be totally blessed, with
Becca (Max’s daughter, now getting very generous assistance from
Stanford), being an example of that. . . . My parents had no clue that
there was any possibility of applying (for help) if you couldn't afford
to go there.
JB:
Did you consider Otis (Art Institute—now the Otis College of Art and
Design)?
MK:
At that point Otis was downtown, and I did not. Again, it just seemed to
be out of our experience and the possibility really wasn't . . .
considered. But I went to Cal State Long Beach and the other reason for
that was that Cal State Long Beach was known to be one of the best
public art schools in the nation.
JB:
And it still is.
MK:
You know, for graphic design.
JB:
Oh, for graphic design?
MK:
Yeah, for graphic design, (one of the) best public schools.
JB:
So, you had figured out by then that you really wanted to focus on
graphic design?
MK:
Absolutely. In high school, I knew that graphic design was going to be
my calling . . . and I totally went in and declared right away. That was
what I was going to do--and followed that path all the way
through--although it took me five years, I think, to get through the
program. Studio classes can be pretty intensive, which is typical for
that kind of a discipline. But actually, Cal State Long Beach was a good
choice in that sense. And I never really considered going back east.
Again, my parents--although my father did attend college (and) my mom
probably (attended for) two years--I don’t recall so much about that. I
think my sister and I were really the first ones to . . . approach it
differently than had been done in the past.
JB:
As a profession.
MK:
Yeah, as a profession—exactly--and (with) very limited experience.
JB:
So, you graduated from CSU Long Beach--and did you have any graphic
design jobs while you were still in school or what was your first
experience?
MK:
No, not while I was in school and again, the whole idea of the
internships--in my experience in that time in the early 70s--it just
wasn't happening. It certainly . . . (is) now. (There's) great pressure
now for the kids to (get a good internship).
JB:
Even to have more than one.
MK:
Absolutely--and to have it starting your freshman year. . . . You don’t
even get to wait until your senior year these days, but at that point it
wasn't something that was common, at least not in my experience
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible) . . . . So my first graphic design job
came post- graduation . . . . While I was in college I was living in
Long Beach, because my parents were at that point in San Diego, and I
had this wonderful Spanish apartment right basically on the water, and
it was great. All through college I put myself . . . through school
working on the Queen Mary. I worked as a waitress in the . . .
(restaurants) there.
JB:
It was moved there about that time, wasn't it?
00:15:00
MK:
It was moved there right before I started work and that had to be
somewhere right around 1970 I think. (The Queen Mary's last voyage—which
ended in Long Beach, California, was in December 1967; she was retired
in 1970 and sold to the Diners Club.) . . . When I was there--when I was
working on the ship--certain parts of the ship were developed; other
parts weren't. So in one part of the ship there were still the freight
elevators . . . that enabled the staff to go down into the hull and the
engine room--which was totally off limits to everybody else-- and really
sort of explore the guts of the ship. Also, the swimming pool, which at
that point had not been renovated and reopened. So, it was really a lot
of fun! So, I worked my way through the latter part of college, working
on the ship, and when I graduated, I decided that I needed an adventure.
Although I had traveled before that--I had traveled across the United
States. . . . I decided
that I just wanted to get on a plane and go any place where it was warm
. . . . so I traveled to Puerto Rico and I got a job there. I actually
just--
JB:
You didn't have anything lined up before you went?
MK:
Nothing lined up, and it was really intended to be vacation. It was
intended to be--OK, post- college, give myself a break, go have some fun
somewhere else and enjoy. So I did that, but once I got down there, I
said why don’t I just try to work here for a while, it might be a
different experience. So, I sent for my portfolio. My mom sent it down
to me, and I went in and interviewed and I took a job, and I had the
choice, fool that I was--I had a choice between, I'm trying to remember
what agency it was there--I'm thinking it's Foote, Cone, and Belding . .
. . In any case--I had the opportunity to go to that agency or work for
the agency I ultimately chose, which was called Monique LaCombe. She was
more of a local sort of advertising person.
JB:
Oh, it (was an) advertising agency?
MK:
It was an advertising firm. I took a job in an advertising firm.
JB:
That makes sense.
MK:
And I kicked myself ever afterwards because if I’d gone with the
international agency (Foote, Cone, and Belding) I could have--once
having been there--hopped back here. I didn't. So I worked for probably
six months to a year in Puerto Rico for . . . Monique LaCombe
Advertising, and I lived in the old city (of San Juan) in a loft space .
. . on the third floor--no windows, of course--they were all just
openings, you didn't have windows there in the old city. And the floor
below me was the roller derby. The spaces were that enormous--the loft
spaces were enormous--that the roller derby actually practiced on the
floor below us. I was living with a Russian architect at that point,
sharing space with a Russian architect.
JB:
How romantic all this sounds.
MK:
I know.
JB:
Although the roller blades might have--
MK:
Funnily enough it didn't really bother me at that point. It really was a
grand adventure, a great place to live . . . . Tons of expats there
that--you get together and you have these once-a-week dinners in
restaurants. Anyway, it was just a fabulous experience, but it came to
the point where I tired of being away, you know, long-term. I mean it
was only six months to a year, so it wasn't that long-term, but the city
is really, really dirty and the economy was so out of whack there. The
cost of living was very high, what you could make was very low and it
was such a disparity that it just didn't make sense for me to try to
continue on so I came back. And at that point I think I went back to the
ship (the Queen Mary) and I worked in the wedding chapel for a while.
JB:
I was wondering what kinds of things you did on the ship (besides being
a waitress). You were not working as a designer on the ship?
MK:
No. In the interim I didn't have a design job. Between living in Puerto
Rico and the time I (was) hired at CAFAM I did other things and it was
fine. I continued to travel. Spent time in Mexico. When I lived in
Mexico, I lived with three ballerinas from the national company. It was
great fun. I had a cat. I toured, I just took my cat and went on the
buses to various little villages around and enjoyed the countryside.
There again, you know, (I) had my experience, got tired, came back, and
it was right after I came back from Mexico that I joined CAFAM.
JB:
You've probably learned to speak Spanish. Had you taken Spanish in
school?
MK:
I took Spanish in school, but I never really learned to the degree where
I could be fluent. When I was in Mexico I could communicate in what they
(call) "street" English, "street" Spanish, I don’t know. That’s not the
proper term, but in any case, my Spanish was somewhat limited. I could
normally understand and make myself understood and when I was out . . .
in the countryside, . . . but I (was) by no means fluent. I never have
been fluent.
JB:
But I remember that you were able to speak to Jorge Casillas and Timoteo
(two men from Mexico who worked at CAFAM as all-around maintenance
people and also sometime-preparators) when the rest of us had difficulty
and that was good.
MK:
Yeah--I mean to a degree.
JB:
Living in L.A. it's (a good) thing to know Spanish . . . . So how did
you first learn about CAFAM? Do you remember when you first heard about
it?
MK:
To be totally honest, I don’t remember how I came upon that job. I just
have no recall there. I do remember I hired in as a receptionist, and I
think--
JB:
So you were not a volunteer to begin with?
00:20:00
MK:
No, actually I was not . . . .
So I must have answered some sort of an ad. I can't imagine what else
would have taken me there, except that I do remember hiring in with the
love of contemporary craft and with a love of folk art and if I was
going to do any kind of a job that was outside design I wanted to at
least be in the art environment. And so, I just . . . I hired in . . .
as a receptionist. One of my first, most beloved, experiences was
directly after I was hired--I mean in a very short time--Merat Kebede--I
don’t know if you remember who she is.
JB:
I do . . . .
MK:
. . . . I was working as a receptionist, and she was hired as Edith’s
secretary, . . . it was right at the same time, within like two months
or so. (Edith Wyle was the museum's founder and the Program Director.)
She and I became very good friends and are to this day. As a matter of
fact, I'm going to see her this weekend. She’s in town.
JB:
She’s from Ethiopia.
MK:
She’s Ethiopian and she had a horror story of when she was in Ethiopia
(during the revolution. As I remember it), she was married, they had two
children--a three year old and a baby. Her husband was an attorney, and
he was on the wrong side of the revolution and was imprisoned. She went
to see him one day (and) she went to see him the next day, and he was
dead--and they said that he died of pneumonia. So, they assassinated him
in prison. And (soon after), she was on a plane with the clothes on her
back and very little money.
JB:
And her children?
MK:
Her two kids (were with her) on a plane--shipped out to Germany. And
that was all made possible because she was working with--help me refresh
my memory--Edith’s daughter Diane's (husband).
JB:
Diana, yes.
MK:
Bernie?
JB:
Bernie (Munk).
MK:
OK, she was working for Bernie, who had a meat business, I believe, in
Addis (Ababa, the capital of Ethiopia) and that was the connection.
Bernie helped her get out. And so she went to Germany, worked for a
little while, and then came into (the U.S.), I believe--correct me if
I'm wrong--but I believe that's what the connection was, and then Bernie
brought her to CAFAM and she worked for Edith.
JB:
I'm really glad you told that story. I knew that she had a terrible
background.
MK:
She did have, yeah.
JB:
But I didn't know the specifics.
MK:
I mean--it's continued. Just a little aside--and she swears up and down
she’ll write a memoir one day, . . . but her experience (was) that she
went back to Ethiopia several years ago, and she (went to) Kenya . . .
into the embassy there to take care of a visa issue. She walked out of
the embassy (and) was half a block away and the embassy blew up! So, she
was (there) at the time when the embassy was bombed.
JB:
I remember hearing about that.
MK:
I mean she had so many of those sort of--
JB:
Close calls.
MK:
--close calls of political violence, it's incredible. It's amazing. But
in any case--
JB:
Things are not good either in Kenya or Ethiopia right now.
MK:
No, they're not and Becca, my daughter, was actually going to go spend a
summer with her about two summers ago and Merat told her not to come.
She said there's very little water. They're rationing electricity. They
only have electricity (for) short periods of the day and this is in
Addis (Ababa), the capital--so.
JB:
She’s back in L.A. now though?
MK:
(Only to visit.) She lives in Ethiopia, has been. Becca and I visited
her--now six years ago--when Becca was 12. We were there for only ten
days . . . . (When she was in L.A.), she worked for Milken's. I don’t
know if you recall that. She worked for (the Drexel Burnham Lambert
company) after she left Edith--
JB:
Oh, my goodness.
MK:
I know. It’s just--it goes on forever here. But she left Edith. She
worked for Edith only for a couple of years and then she had an
opportunity to go into the stock (market), into . . . (working with
traders).
JB:
So, she went to work for Milken?
MK:
. . . She worked for (Lowell) Milken who was the attorney part of the
brotherhood . . . at Drexel (Burnham Lambert, that was involved in junk
bond trading). And so she worked for them for a number of years and so
she and I would . . . constantly see each other. You know, Merat was
raised as privileged as one could be in Ethiopia. When she came to this
country--
JB:
That's why she was on the wrong side of the revolution.
00:25:00
MK:
There you go. (When she came to this country), she had no concept about
how to do laundry. I taught her how to do laundry, I gave her her first
Christmas tree. It was just those kinds of things that--we've got
history there. So, in any case, she went to Drexel, and then after she
left Drexel-- after Drexel blew up (Drexel Burnham Lambert was a major
Wall Street investment banking firm which was forced into bankruptcy in
February 1990 due to its involvement in illegal activities in the junk
bond market, driven by Drexel employee Michael Milken. At its height, it
was the fifth-largest investment bank in the United States.)--she went
to
work in risk management for the Atlanta Olympic Games, and then lived
there for a while, and then after that she went back to Ethiopia, and
has been there ever since. She’s just (now) visiting . . . and so I'll
see her this weekend for a short time.
JB:
Please give her my good wishes. I remember her very well.
MK:
And then I guess Brenda (Hurst) came after. It was either Brenda or Mac
that was Edith’s secretary.
JB:
Mac I think was first actually.
MK:
Was she? Is that the correlation?
JB:
Yes, Mary Ann. "Mac" was an acronym for her name, Mary Ann
(Cisar-Tighe). She was there to begin with--and then I think Merat--and
then Brenda. Before we go any further, I’d like (to ask) you to just
imagine that I don’t know anything about CAFAM. If you were going to
tell somebody, which--you've probably had this experience of wanting to
tell somebody about CAFAM who’s never heard of it--how would you
describe it or what were your thoughts or feelings when you first got
there?
MK:
I have to say I don’t know about when I first got there. When I think
about it now, I talk about it in terms of having worked for this
wonderful little institution that had so many exciting different
cultural experiences and artists come through it--and it was just a
vital place to be--and I can't tell you how much I enjoyed working
there. You know, I refer to it as "the golden years" in the sense that
during the time I was there, there was still money, there was still
funding. We did these wonderful exhibitions and there were the
openings--and there was this whole community of people in L.A. that were
very much a part of it and flocked to it--and I felt very privileged to
have those associations at that time, and it was just a wonderful
family. The staff there was a wonderful family and to this day I . . .
have many of them that are still friends.
JB:
A lot of us have stayed in touch, however tenuously.
MK:
Absolutely. We all have our own lives, but we get back in touch, some
more than others . . . every six months or a year, whatever it is. But
yeah, it was just an incredible, incredible experience, a great place,
and so vital and just (brought) so much to L.A. (where) there was a
vacuum. I mean that kind of exposure just didn't happen (elsewhere).
JB:
Yeah, certainly not in other museums.
MK:
True.
JB:
Not at that time.
MK:
(Maybe in) private collections, but private collections are private
collections; they're not public and so...
JB:
And of course, it wasn't just a gallery or even a shop--
MK:
There were the programs.
JB:
And there was the restaurant (that) made it very--
MK:
There was--of course. The restaurant made it a lot of fun. I mean I
remember sitting up there and having omelets on my own, or going in for
happy hour or whatever. Yeah, the restaurant was great. It was a great
place to go and dine and then you had the art experience and then you
had the shop, which was full of wonderful things to look at and purchase
and then the other wonderful thing about the--I keep using that word
"wonderful"--sorry.
JB:
It was.
MK:
But it was. It truly was. All the programs that went with the
exhibitions--so not only was it the exhibitions (themselves), but it
was--I'm trying to remember--there were several different people that
ran the educational (programs)--Janet Marcus, of course, being one.
JB:
(and) Karen Copeland.
MK:
Ran education there for a period of time.
JB:
When you first got there.
MK:
But some of the programs that were associated with the exhibitions
really brought the exhibitions alive, and it brought people in, and it
just made it so much more vital, even over and above having stuff on the
walls.
JB:
And often they would have scholars come and talk, and the curators often
were scholars but there were also--often the people that would be there
to interpret were people from that culture-- and they weren't always
scholars. There were sometimes musicians or storytellers or other people
who just reflected that culture.
MK:
One of my fondest memories actually is when Judith Bronowski (organized)
Artesanos Mexicanos: (Three Folk Artists from Mexico; opened June 26,
1978) and the beauty about that particular exhibition was--
JB:
Excuse me. (Break in audio) OK, Judith Bronowski--
00:30:00
MK:
The wonderful thing about that particular exhibition was that Judith
brought the three people that the exhibition was about
to Los Angeles and they did little programs in the galleries, little
demonstrations, exhibitions, or they just sat and answered questions for
people--through interpreters of course--because none of them spoke
English. It was Sabina (Sanchez, the embroiderer), it was Pedro Linares,
(the papier maché artist), and Manuel Jimenez, who did the woodcarving,
and in addition to that, (for) the opening--if you remember Jorge--Jorge
(Casillas) brought his mariachi group and . . . we had . . . all the
Mexican food and there were tortillas being (made)--it was just--
JB:
It was a total experience.
MK:
It was a total experience and what was so wonderful about the museum was
that the public coming in not only saw all the things on the walls,
their kids could come in and participate in activities for children
(phone call—audio break). . . . . It just brought it all alive. It gave
. . . the full cultural experience for people visiting and seeing. It
means so much more when you're seeing the people who are actually doing
the work. So that is just one example, and it happened (for) many of the
exhibitions. I'm trying to remember--even the low rider cars, it seems
to me that Marcie (Page) brought--
JB:
She tried to do that. She did a lot of field research (on low riders).
MK:
That was for another . . . exhibition. I mean after.
JB:
You mean in connection with some other exhibition? (Low Riders were
displayed in front of the museum for the opening of the Murals of Aztlan
exhibition in April 1981.)
MK:
Maybe I'm just not remembering--but it seems to me while I was working
there, there was something along that line. But even like the Japanese
show (Traditional Toys of Japan; exhibition opened April 30, 1979) --the
teahouse that was built.
JB:
Wasn't that amazing?
MK:
And the tea ceremony being performed. And so it was, Edith (Wyle, the
museum's founder) --certainly to her credit--and to everyone else’s of
course who was involved—(who tried) to expand the experience beyond what
was . . . shown in the galleries . . . .
JB:
Yes, and often in the restaurant, as well as the shop, there would be, I
think always--
MK:
There were companion exhibitions in the shop always.
JB:
And even the restaurant would try to have some special things on the
menu or have (related) photographs exhibited. I was just thinking for
the Artesanos show in particular--but with quite a few shows that
happened in the late 70s and early 80s--there seemed to be a good deal
of money available and that, of course, made it possible for you to do
wonderful exhibition catalogs for a lot of them.
MK:
Thank you.
JB:
And that Artesanos catalog was--that was one of the few catalogs that
sold out more than once.
MK:
It's funny, I look back on those catalogs now, and they seem so
immature, but at the time they certainly served the purpose, and
everybody was always very complimentary, and so it worked.
JB:
They worked. They were used for promoting the museum--
MK:
Absolutely.
JB:
Everyone was always very impressed as soon as you pulled out those
catalogs.
MK:
It's needed, those sorts of things are needed when you're going after
funding--and when funding started to slide, then Tosco sort of stepped
up to the plate.
JB:
Yes, Mort Winston.
MK:
Yeah, and helped with funding. But when the NEA sort of dried up things
became a lot more difficult.
JB:
A lot harder. We had some of the first--well, we had one of the first
major grants from the NEA and also from that other organization, which
is a little different now, but it used to be called the Institute of
Museum Services. It was a big government agency that supported museums.
It's morphed into this thing that now supports both museums and
libraries, and I don’t think it has as much money or power as it did,
but at the time it was very impressive that we were able to get those
kinds of funds. Let’s go back just a little bit. You first got a job as
receptionist at the museum. What was that like?
00:35:00
MK:
The reception area was in the--there was a little desk in the shop.
JB:
On the left hand, the east side--
MK:
Yeah, where--
JB:
On the first floor.
MK:
Yes, on the east side. So, it was sort of just the place that, when
people came in, they were either going into the shop or they were going
upstairs to the exhibitions, or they were going to the offices--I don’t
remember much. I do remember being there and always enjoying it as
people came by, or talking with John (Browse) and Ann (Robbins) in the
shop. But that didn't last long, because very shortly after I was
hired--because I did have the graphic design skills--they decided to
mentor me into (being) the museum designer.
JB:
OK, that's what I wanted to find out, how that evolved.
MK:
So I began working initially with Milt (Zolotow) and Ed Tuttle. They
seemed to be the two sort-of advisors from the standpoint (overlapping
dialogue; inaudible). (Milt) was a practicing designer and he was doing
the (museum's) design work before I came.
JB:
And Ed was always interested in publications and print design.
MK:
He was. And print design, exactly--and had to have that classic sense,
that very classic sensibility. So, when I came in, the two of them
started working with me, and I'm trying to remember how all that worked.
I somehow think the logo was one of the first things that--I don’t
recall. I'm thinking that the logo was one of the first things that I
sort of redesigned.
JB:
Was it still the egg cup logo?
MK:
No. It wasn't. And I'm trying to think, I honestly don’t remember but
I'm thinking that it either was the woodcut design that says Craft and
Folk Art--I think that was in existence when I came but it wasn't
outlined and it wasn't used in the same way--so that's what I worked on.
I took the existing logo and I modified it and I applied it to all the
working papers and we made all new working papers. So the Egg and the
Eye logo, I don’t know at what point that changed over, but Milt, I
believe, was the one who designed the wood block, the wood lettering.
JB:
Originally.
MK:
It's not a wood block; they were actually the letters used in
letterpress printing that were put together in the phrase, “Craft and
Folk Art Museum." So, one of the first things I did was to revamp the
logo and the working papers and then very quickly moved into catalogs.
JB:
I remember that whole project of redesigning all of the papers.
MK:
That went through a couple of redesigns while I was there but that was
the first one.
JB:
I know that Edith and quite a few people who had been, of course,
through the Egg and the Eye gallery period were concerned because at
this point after the museum became a museum, they really wanted to
promote it as a museum--and not forget about the restaurant and the
gallery--but not emphasize it as much.
MK:
But the intention was to really emphasize the fact that they were
dealing with (both) contemporary crafts and international folk art and
so the Egg and the Eye logo didn't really serve that purpose and I think
it was when that happened--when they made the decision that the
programming was going to be contemporary craft and international folk
art--that's when Milt did the logo (that used the new name), Craft and
Folk Art Museum. So, when it became a museum and that (type of)
programming was instituted as what the museum was going to do, then
that's when that logo came into existence. And I believe--I mean I would
have to look at your timeline--but I believe that that was probably,
what, 1976 or so? ’75?
00:40:00
JB:
’75 is when the first exhibitions that were advertised as museum
exhibitions happened. Edith and I used to argue about this, because she
wanted to use 1973 as the start date and technically that's actually
true, because that's when they got their nonprofit status, but it takes
a long time to develop an institution--with forming of the board and
developing exhibitions that had maybe more substance and so on. So, it
took at least two years before they
got to the point of really advertising it as a museum and that was 1975.
So, when you came on (in February 1977), it was still in its infancy and
(a state of transition) really.
MK:
Yes, and as we're talking about this, as I said, I think the first
catalog I did was the American Crafts in the White House (opened August
16, 1977) and of course Mrs. Mondale (was involved with that).
JB:
That was exciting.
MK:
Totally exciting. I mean how exciting was it to be--in the first catalog
that I did—to be able to work with--not Mrs. Mondale--Mrs. Carter--I'm
sorry.
JB:
Yes, but Mrs. Joan Mondale was the wife of the Vice President (Fritz
Mondale) under Carter so she was the one--
MK:
Oh, that was the connection? OK, thank you for that.
JB:
The luncheon was produced by--
MK:
Was for Mrs. Mondale because I have the invitation.
JB:
We're looking at the catalog that was designed for a show that was based
on a Senate (Ladies) Luncheon that was produced by Rosalynn Carter, the
First Lady.
MK:
Rosalynn.
JB:
But at about the same time, Joan Mondale, who was the vice president’s
wife, visited (CAFAM) so I think all of that sort of happened at around
the same time.
MK:
I do believe it did. I think actually Mrs. Mondale’s visit was--
JB:
Timed (in conjunction) with the (first fundraiser gala, the Festival
Primavera, April 16, 1977--overlapping dialogue; inaudible—and the
American Crafts in the White House exhibition, which also opened August
16, 1977). She was a potter herself, Joan Mondale was, and a great
promoter of the arts, one of the first, I think, since Eleanor
Roosevelt, in government that really strongly promoted the arts. And so,
they called her Joan of Art.
MK:
Funny.
JB:
And so, Edith and CAFAM were thrilled that she agreed to visit. (Mondale
was the honorée at that first Primavera.) So that was when you were just
getting going (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
MK:
That was when I transitioned from being a receptionist into a designer,
and this catalog (American Crafts in the White House) was done all in
one color. It was all blue tones. It may actually have been a duotone--I
don’t recall--a black blue. But in any case, then after that, the next
major catalog was for the Natzlers and that was the first full-color
catalog for the museum. (Natzler: The Ceramics of Gertrud and Otto
Natzler, 1971-1977; exhibition opened October 4, 1977.)
JB:
Yes, and there were quite a few after that that were in full color.
MK:
Absolutely.
JB:
Not all of them but--
MK:
It was mostly--most of the exhibition catalogs were full color, and as I
go back, I'm amazed that we produced so many of them.
JB:
I was too. It seems like there were two or maybe three years where
almost every exhibition--
MK:
Had a full color catalog.
JB:
It was just assumed. And I've often wondered how that happened.
MK:
I was very busy. (Overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
JB:
(Were there) any discussions about that? There must have been.
MK:
I don’t (remember). I really don’t. I can only go back to the thought
that again (those) were the years where funding was available, and they
were going and getting these grants and as part of the grant it would be
written in that there would be a full color exhibition catalog. And I
don’t know--maybe that was just part of . . . why we were given
grants--that we would actually publish something in addition.
JB:
Maybe so. And I remember that in those first years, if you were a
member, you got all those catalogs mailed to you free.
MK:
Yes, that was the perk, one of the perks of being a member, absolutely.
JB:
They were beautiful catalogs and I know you said that you were kind of
embarrassed when you looked at them now--
MK:
No, not embarrassed. You know, the design is of another era, and as I
said, I'm much more sophisticated now in what is done than I was at that
point.
JB:
Of course, after all of your experience, but they still look wonderful.
MK:
Thank you.
JB:
And were always, as I said, used to promote the museum, so everyone
really appreciated them.
00:45:00
MK:
It's just great fun to go back and look at all of them and understand
that that was the documentation of what we were all doing during that
time, and I think that . . .
the thing I enjoyed most was--besides the fact that design was fun for
me—(that) I got to do something that I really enjoyed doing and made a
living at doing it. But in addition to that, . . . just by the nature of
doing the catalog, I was working with the curators, and not only our
in-house people, but the people who were bringing these exhibitions to
(the museum) or the artists that the exhibition was on.
JB:
And the photographers.
MK:
And the photographers, exactly. But I remember being in the Natzlers'
studio and just talking with them about--at that point Gertrud (Natzler)
was gone and it was Otto and he was married to--
JB:
I think he had just remarried.
MK:
I think he just had.
JB:
And she was the photographer, wasn't she?
MK:
I don’t know, I’d have to look. But in any case I really enjoyed being
up at that studio and looking at all his glazes and--Gail Reynolds
Natzler, (Otto's second wife) --was the photographer—she did the
(catalog) photography. He was just such a wonderful man, and he was so
quiet and he just sat and explained all the glazes and showed me what
the various glazes would do on his various pieces of pottery, and it was
just wonderful to be able to have that kind of intimate experience with
someone of his stature. Just incredible. And I look back on his things
and I just almost cry. It's so funny because they're wonderful. They
really, really are--just exquisite--and so that was a great experience.
So, I had that (kind of experience) all along. From there into--what was
the one I did after that? Romanian Folk Textiles, with Joyce Winkle
(opened March 7, 1978), and she had spent all that time in Romania and
brought all these bags and bags full of textiles and things back. I
remember I bought a blouse from her that I still have to this day. Becca
actually does . . . wear it on occasion. It is an old indigenous folk
blouse or garment. So, the pleasure was being able to work (on an
exhibition) all the way through. (I worked) a little bit with Jack Lenor
Larsen when we did The Dyer’s Art: (Ikat, Batik, Plangi; opened April
25, 1978), although that came with a catalog so I didn't do that one.
And then the next one was Artesanos Mexicanos with Judith Bronowski and
we've talked about that and what that was all about--but Judith and I
remain friends to this day and her--I think it was . . . last Fourth of
July--I was at her house and we looked at her--
JB:
The films.
MK:
The fourth film that she did after the exhibition, which was done on a
pyrotechnic artist and--
JB:
Oh, fireworks.
MK:
Yeah, fireworks in Mexico. So that was her fourth film, but done after
the (CAFAM) exhibition. So, anyways, it was great fun.
JB:
I hope we'll have time to talk about some more of the exhibition
catalogs, but there's a couple of (other) things I wanted to ask you
about . . . . At what point did you move into what we called the
cottage?
MK:
Gosh, it had to be very early on, because I don’t remember working
anywhere else.
JB:
Yeah, I was trying to think if there was any other place.
MK:
I think you and I moved into the house together.
JB:
About the same time, didn't we, well . . . but I think there were some
people there that were ousted, sort of, and I always felt just a little
embarrassed about that.
MK:
I don’t really recall that.
JB:
There were a couple of women, and I think they may have been Bette Chase
and--
MK:
Yeah, conservators.
JB:
Ruth Greenberg.
MK:
Yes, (they worked in) the front room; they were conservators. Textile
conservators--right, and it's coming back--but I don’t really remember
anything more than that. I just remember when you were in the throes of
buying all your shelving, and trying to get the library set up.
JB:
That was exciting.
MK:
And I was in the back room and Jorge made me my table, which I have to
this day, in what, 1978-79?
JB:
And he made me a table too, a light table, and yours was, too, and I
don’t have (mine). I kind of wish I did--although I don’t need any more
stuff--but it is at LACMA. And it was wonderful. It was I think seven
feet long--
00:50:00
MK:
Yeah, seven feet long and about three and a half feet wide, with an
embedded light table, and he designed it and made one for each of us.
So--my office was in the back room that had lots of light.
JB:
It was the . . . ('master") bedroom.
MK:
The (back) bedroom or whatever, and it had the lanai attached to it,
which essentially was this--I guess--windowed, framed-in, windowed . . .
lanai . . . (or) patio. So that was attached, essentially, to my space.
JB:
We had some parties back there.
MK:
I think we did. (There was) that big old rubber tree that was there too.
JB:
Yes, and a lemon tree. All that is gone now.
MK:
But in any case, my design time for the entire time I was at the museum
was spent in that room, and you know, I came and went, and I had a
cat--a resident kitty--two resident kitties--one after the other.
JB:
I had forgotten (that).
MK:
Yes, we had the resident kitties at the--so it was a great space. I
remember asking Jorge to put a window in my door, so I could see people
coming down the hall, and I didn't feel so enclosed, and Jorge was
great. He was always there to help us build whatever little thing that
we needed done, and I had a great rapport with him, and he would talk
about sending money and building in Mexico for his family and etc., and
one day wanting to go back, which he did ultimately.
JB:
He was a cook as well as a musician, I think, and didn't he have a
restaurant in Mexico?
MK:
Yeah, it was either a restaurant or a bar, I can't remember what it was,
but yeah, ultimately, he went back, and that's what he did, as far as I
remember.
JB:
Yes, and it was kind of sad, because the big economic crash happened in
Mexico right after he had gone back. He did come back briefly a few
years later. It was great to see him. But yeah--that little cottage, a
little Spanish-style cottage that was just around the corner (on Curson)
from the museum--and we were kind of roommates.
MK:
We were.
JB:
And the library was the living room and the dining room and ultimately
the kitchen--although we did use it as a kitchen for a while. I guess my
office was the front bedroom; your office was the back bedroom.
MK:
Yeah, that actually is right.
JB:
It was actually the biggest room, where your office was.
MK:
And then when Nina (Green, the publicist) was hired, Nina, I believe,
came and worked in my space. I'm trying to remember how that happened.
JB:
I was just trying to remember. There were two or three people, who, I
guess, shared your space with you for a while (overlapping dialogue;
inaudible). Janet Marcus, (the Museum Educator), I know, was back there.
MK:
I don't remember that. I remember Janet being in the main museum, but I
think you must be right. I just don’t remember.
JB:
But maybe that was after you left.
MK:
Oh, probably it was. Although, no, the house was torn down shortly after
I left, I believe.
JB:
Oh no, the cottage was there until just about three or four years ago.
MK:
Oh really?
JB:
It was still there. It was sold in the big--you know--downfall of the
museum in the late '90s. That was one of the things that was sloughed
off. (But it wasn't torn down right away; it probably continued to be
rented for a few years.)
MK:
Yeah, really sad. It was such a sweet little place, such a comfortable
nice place to work, especially when--you know--when I (was doing) design
work, I needed to sort of be in a place where I could think and--
JB:
You were there late at night, very late.
MK:
Absolutely. But that was just the nature of what I did, because you had
so much on your plate you just had to do--you know, go back to--like
when you were in college--pulling all-nighters, that's what you did.
JB:
And now I was thinking that for a while you had your own--when did you
start your own business?
MK:
I think I started my own business somewhere about 1980 and I actually
left the museum in late ’85, (or rather) late ’84, excuse me. So, I had
my own business for about four years while I was still working at the
museum, and that business sort of came about because people saw what I
did at the museum and liked it and asked me to do other things. So--I
worked for a boutique in Beverly Hills called Lynn Deutsch and--
JB:
I remember that.
MK:
Do you?
JB:
(She) was a supporter of the museum.
MK:
So, she got to me--
JB:
She may have been on the board--she was very active.
MK:
I believe she was one of the Associates, which I did a lot of work for.
(The Associates were a high-end support group for the museum.) And I
worked for LACMA, did a few things there. I worked for the Academy of
Motion Pictures with--
00:55:00
JB:
I remember those
wonderful posters you made.
MK:
Yeah, the "Tribute Series." So a lot of work came to me by reference
through the work that I was doing for the museum. And we all sort of
came to terms with the fact that I was doing that as well as I was doing
the work for the museum, and one supported the other in a way, but that
would also be a reason why I worked late at night a lot of times because
I . . . had two things going. I had a lot on my plate. But that space
was just a really wonderful space to be in, and I . . . cherished that
experience there.
JB:
Yes, I did too. And you taught me a great deal. I don’t know if you
remember, but I asked you-- because I had to deal not just with books
and magazines--but slides. One of the jobs that I took on early--mostly
just so I could control it--was the documentation of the exhibitions.
For some reason, although they were really good about publicity, and
about having a photographer there for most of the events--and all those
photographs are in the archive at UCLA--
MK:
Wouldn't I love to go back and look at those.
JB:
Oh, they're wonderful. Photographs and slides. And what we ended up
doing is building into the budget as much as possible--sometimes it was
less possible--but almost all the time we had a photographer come in and
document the installation. That meant that we couldn't afford to have
close-up shots of each object. There would be a few close-ups, and
mostly it would be wide shots of the installation.
MK:
When I was doing the catalogs, we had the close-ups of the individual
pieces there, unless they weren't all represented in the catalog, which
I'm sure was sometimes the case, but so one complemented the other. You
had what was used for the catalogs on the individual (images) and then
you had the installation (shots) showing what the exhibition actually
looked like.
JB:
Yes, but when I started doing that, I took a photography (of art) course
at LACMA offered by the guy who was the photographer there at the time,
and so I knew some basic things about picture-taking, but what I didn't
know about was slides--just taking care (of them) --even the physical,
technical aspects of slides--which was the "right" side and--
MK:
--which was the emulsion side and which was the film side, yeah.
JB:
Kind of old technology now that we're in the digital age.
MK:
Yes, of course.
JB:
But you really taught me about that, and you also talked to me about how
to approach the exhibition pictorially, and how to capture that. So that
when we weren't able to hire a photographer, I was able to go in and do
the photography--not nearly as well (as a professional), but you had a
friend who was a photographer, and I don’t remember which one it was
now, but we had some money we’d gotten from the Irvine Foundation, and
he took me on a shopping trip to buy a tripod and a lighting setup
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
MK:
Just the other day I remembered his name, and you know my memory comes
and goes so much these days but hopefully--
JB:
I should remember too . . . .
MK:
But yes, he was located in Venice--great guy. (His name was Bob Seida.)
01:00:00
JB:
But the point I wanted to make is that you really were--you taught me a
lot about that and, of course, (my) just being there--kind of looking
over your shoulder and seeing the kinds of projects that you were
working on--was a great education too. And I wanted to make the point,
before we get too far along, that you worked on so many aspects (of
graphic design for CAFAM). We've touched on several, besides the
exhibition catalogs, which, of course, were the most public aspects of
what you did, (but) you redid
the stationery--
MK:
Numerous times.
JB:
At least yeah, two or three times that I can remember. There were always
events, of course-- besides the exhibitions, there was the Festival of
Masks, which--I want to get your take on that too--but (also) the
programs for the annual fundraiser.
MK:
Well, Festival Primavera, which was the annual fundraiser for the museum
and oftentimes held in the Beverly Wilshire or one of the--
JB:
Some upscale hotel.
MK:
Exactly. (Overlapping dialogue; inaudible) $150 a plate dinners or
whatever they were. And that actually--you know, that was all--I worked
(on the invitations and the programs) with Edith during those beginning
years because she had the Tree of Life image that she used for her very
first Festival Primavera invitation. I believe that one was--my guess is
(it was) either done by Ed Tuttle or Milt (Zolotow).
JB:
Oh.
MK:
It was in place--in fact the very first one I could find, I think, was
1977. And that one was--
JB:
I think that may have been the first one.
MK:
Oh, could it have been? Maybe so.
JB:
It certainly wasn't earlier than ’76. You know, it took a while to
develop these ideas. Mark Gallon, who was on--
MK:
The development for (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
JB:
--he was really our first development person, (though) on a pro bono
basis. He’s the one who developed the idea of having an annual
fundraiser at all. We hadn't really had one before. (The first one was
held April 16, 1977; the honoree was Joan Mondale.) And it developed
into a kind of basic concept, though people tried to do different things
from time to time. I think it was even at one point--or at least there
was talk of it being--on the Queen Mary.
MK:
I don’t recall that.
JB:
There were some Great Chefs’ dinners.
MK:
There were.
JB:
In fact, that was one of--
MK:
Oh, "first anniversary," I'm looking at the invitation now. "First
anniversary Craft and Folk Art, you're invited to attend the first
annual folk art ball, Festival Primavera, at the Beverly Wiltshire
hotel."
JB:
And when was that?
MK:
April 16, 1977. And Mort Winston was the chairman of the board at that
point and so--
JB:
Yeah, he was chairman for quite a few years, I think about eight years
altogether. (Winston was the board chairman for eleven years, 1976 –
1987.)
MK:
$100 per person,1977, that's what it was. And—"special guest of honor,
Mrs. Walter Mondale"--there we go.
JB:
OK, so didn't you design that?
MK:
No. The icon, as I will call it, the image, is a tree of life and it has
the serpent, and then it has a folk figure representing man and woman.
And it is enclosed in a box that has a border around it. It says
festival on the top, primavera on the bottom and the lettering is sort
of primitively woodcut. And so this image, which measures about four
inches square or so, was the image that Edith used on the very first one
and we used it up until, let me look at the last one I can see here--
which is ’81. No. And we used it in the Korean one, so let me just
quickly look at that and see what the date on that one was.
JB:
You developed a kind of format, both for those and for the catalogs--
MK:
Yeah, 1982 was the last one that we did, and that was in commemoration
of the centennial celebrating the opening of diplomatic relations
between Korea and the United States and the signing of the treaty of
amity and commerce.
JB:
It was called the Korean American Bicentennial and there were performers
from Korea.
01:05:00
MK:
Exactly. And delightful, I have to just quickly say that in the
exhibition--I don’t know if actually it was both the exhibition opening
and for what is here: "Las Primaveras of the Craft and Folk Art Museum
invites you to attend the sixth annual folk art gala, Festival
Primavera" and this one honored Dickinson Ross and Min Soo Park, (Korean
Consul General). In any case, that evening they had numerous performers,
four, five, six, whatever it was, and they were dancers and various
other things
but the one that I remember (most) was the fellow who made the sugar
sculptures and they were like wax and they were like little birds that
were just exquisite.
JB:
I remember that.
MK:
It was all hand-modeled on the spot.
JB:
Yes, he had some sticks or something--he would put the sugar on and then
he would manipulate those sticks and kind of pull them and twist it--
MK:
It's like taffy, I think. I mean one could equate it to that. It was
like taffy.
JB:
It was beautiful.
MK:
So that was the last one that used that image. And the invitation itself
remained the same all those years as far as the front. The only color on
the whole thing--it was blind-embossed--the only color on the whole
thing is the (green) apple in the serpent’s mouth.
JB:
Yes, that was delightful.
MK:
And when they had themes, there would be a secondary sheet inside the
cover of it that would reflect the theme. One was Balinese and this
particular one was Korean and so we would--Edith would--she had some
Balinese textiles that I photographed one year and we used that--and so
she was actually very active in the whole (Festival) Primavera--that was
her baby.
JB:
Maybe that's a good segué to talk about Edith a little bit more.
Obviously, she was still very involved with the museum when you started.
MK:
Oh absolutely. And in the beginning--I have to just share this--in the
beginning there was a certain--well let’s just say she and I didn't
really get along real well. It's because we're both very strong
personalities and we both are very--we have our opinions and things. And
I was working for her, and followed her direction early on, and then she
developed a sort of respect for what I did and for my opinions and we
became friends to a degree, and we had a mutual respect for one another
and it was at that point where, there would be times when I said, "you
know, I really don’t think so," (and) she goes, "well I really do,"
(and) we’d say, "OK," and that's how it would go. But that--
JB:
And she usually won, I think.
MK:
Well, as well she should. I mean, you know. It was hers. I mean it was
and it wasn't, but it was her vision, and up until the very last, I
still believe it was her vision and, so--
JB:
She "retired" in 1984.
MK:
Same year that I did.
JB:
I was going to ask, I think you told me--
MK:
No, I did, but I was wrong. It was late in 1984. Patrick, I believe,
became director then.
JB:
That's right.
MK:
And the unfortunate story is that at that point funding was really,
really tight.
JB:
It was very bad.
MK:
I was probably one of the higher paid people there, and so I was let go
in December of ’84. I was in escrow on my house when that had happened.
So that was an interesting time for me, needless to say. But it was my
philosophy, when one door opens or closes, another one opens. It's that
whole thing: things were meant to be. I'm very much a fatalist.
JB:
And you had your own business.
MK:
And I had my own business at that point. And so it was good timing in
the sense that it was just time for that one door, I guess, to close and
for the other one to become fully open. And so 1984, December of 1984,
was my last time there. And I continued to do a few things because I
actually have pieces from 1988 here.
JB:
Yes, I know that there were some projects that you worked on--
MK:
I continued to do, yeah.
JB:
I know you did. In fact, I think some of it was--I don’t know if it was
gratis--but it was at least just at cost or something.
MK:
Yeah, that does ring a bell.
JB:
You did a membership brochure (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) as I
remember.
MK:
That is true.
JB:
I think you probably--I know one of the things that I learned from you
was that if you were doing-- maybe a big poster or something like that,
if there was extra space on the side you could--
01:10:00
MK:
Cram that sheet with whatever we could possibly put on it. Yeah, that
was sort of, just something that I developed and I did throughout my
career. You use up the sheet because the cost of the run is what's
(critical)--and what we call "make ready" is getting the color on
the press up to the point where the color is approved--which is
something (else) that I always did; that is the most costly part of the
printing. It's not the run, it's the preparation of the run. So you pile
that sheet up with as much as you possibly can to get the economy of it.
JB:
I know that was really appreciated, because the museum did have quite a
few periods of time . . . before the final one, when it was really a
roller coaster ride.
MK:
It really was.
JB:
It seemed like, depending on the grants that we got, we were either in
hog heaven or in the pits.
MK:
Or struggling, yeah. It was definitely . . . the case.
JB:
What I found--and let me just ask you if this was true for you too--
that those struggling times were really times of challenge. It's kind of
trite to say that, but you know, they hired a lot of young women (and we
were both younger at that time) and I think that--whether . . .
conscious or not-- the hiring of young women to work in this really
exciting organization meant that we worked extra hard for everything
that we did. And whether they knew that or not I don’t know but it was--
MK:
Whether they knew it and/or appreciated it I'm not even so sure. I'll
call it (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
JB:
--it was very exploitive.
MK:
You know, it was. But the flip side of that is that--and I can't speak
for everyone, I can only speak for myself here--but I'll allude to the
fact that I think most people felt the same way. What we were doing
meant so much to us, and it was such a passionate sort of calling, you
know, whatever we were doing, you being in the library--
JB:
It felt like a calling.
MK:
Me being in the design shed and Willow (Young) and Karen (Copeland) and
all of us.
JB:
Marcie.
MK:
And Marcie (Page) and Janet Marcus and all of us--we all came to it with
this energy and this passion and we loved what we were doing--and we
just really wanted to do it "to the max." (Laughing) Forget that--but
you know--we go back to that. We wanted to make the most of it, and you
know--did we maybe not get the full benefit? Maybe--but it was what it
was, and each one of us had our experience from it and--
JB:
And in retrospect I think it's obvious that we did get a lot out of it.
MK:
I certainly did.
JB:
At the time, there were certainly low moments but--
MK:
And honestly, I probably benefited more than most, because it was
through that position at CAFAM that allowed me to develop my business on
the side, which then became my full-time business after the fact.
So--and not everyone was in that position--so I certainly benefited from
that.
JB:
Let’s talk a little bit about some of the other people. Do you want to
say anything more about Edith (Wyle)?
MK:
Well, no.
JB:
(laughter)
MK:
I mean yes and no. I mean--I so admired her vision and her passion and
she was so--so stubborn. I mean she had an idea in her mind, and boy,
she was not going to change it. That you just sort of had to--had to
accept that. But she--in so many ways--she was like a child in how she
approached things. And I say that in the most positive way. Because she
had a certain--well she had ideas about what she wanted to see, but she
had a certain openness to it, and a certain vitality and playfulness,
which was the total flipside of her stubborn, staunch whatever. So, the
two sort of found a balance and you know: her office--I just loved
sitting in her office and looking at her--
JB:
Wasn't that a wonderful office?
MK:
--(her) wall with all her little treasures that she’d brought back from
Japan and this and that. That place was her life. It was her life. And
for a period of time it was all our lives to a degree.
JB:
It was. (Until Edith retired in 1984 we had our weekly program staff
meetings there.)
MK:
So (I had) a lot of respect for her--even though it was a relationship
for me that was very--it took transition and a growth . . . . (But we)
ended up in a very good place. To the point (where) when she passed,
Patrick asked me to come back and do--why am I getting emotional about
this?
JB:
Of course, you are.
MK:
Anyway, he asked me to come back and do the invitation to her memorial.
JB:
Oh, of course.
MK:
Which I did and (was) very happy to do.
01:15:00
JB:
That was beautiful, really.
MK:
And funnily enough, shortly after that, my daughter did a report on
someone important in her life. (But) . . . it wasn't her life, it was
mine; she did a report at school, which I still have--
JB:
On Edith?
MK:
About Edith, yeah. Funny.
JB:
Oh, my goodness.
MK:
Anyway, so. . . . And then being at her house too. You walk into her
house--a lovely place that she and Frank had. And at the time I didn't
have a strong appreciation for the design of it. Not that I didn't like
it; I did, but I didn't have a strong sense of what that architecture
was all about and the quality of it. (I'm) remembering her stairwell
didn't have any railings on it. That was a little illegal. . . . Yeah, a
little code violation there, but it was so beautiful, too, because you
just had these floating steps that came out of the wall. It was just
gorgeous.
JB:
And Frank had done that, you know.
MK:
Oh, had he?
JB:
Yes.
MK:
And then her Japanese hot tub that--I don’t know--hot tub isn't probably
the right term for what it was.
JB:
No, it is--and she had the tea house there.
MK:
Yeah--so lovely a place--and I always felt very special being there. I
remember somebody’s--don’t recall whose--baby shower there. Karen’s, had
to be Karen.
JB:
Could have been. We had so many parties. (Overlapping dialogue;
inaudible) Really, at least for the staff, that was a major aspect of
(the CAFAM culture).
MK:
And it was sweet. Be it family for all of us--it was also family for
Edith, you know? To a degree, again.
JB:
Oh, sure. Although she told me one time that when she and Frank were
away from the museum they really hardly ever--she said it in a sort of
a--with a sense of wonderment. She said, "You know, we really hardly
ever talk about the museum."
MK:
Well, you know, it was so intense for such a long period of time that
you can almost understand that because they've moved through it.
JB:
And they had a lot of other parts of their life. They had the incredible
huge ranch up near Yosemite. Let’s talk about Frank (Wyle) just a little
bit. What were your encounters with him like?
MK:
I don’t know, it's interesting.
JB:
Of course, you may not have had very many.
MK:
Actually no, I did, but I did differently than others, because it goes
back to my graphic design and it may have been--I'm trying to remember
at what point--Frank was always this sort of, gosh--I don’t even know
how to describe it--this presence. You know, he would be there with his
pipe and sort of being in contemplation and, to me, he wasn't a real
approachable person. You always felt . . . this sense of power that he
had that sort of separated him from me . . . (overlapping dialogue;
inaudible) --or maybe--I can again only speak for myself--but maybe
(also) the rest of us. But it wasn't an unkind thing; it was just being
removed from it all. And of course, he dealt with the museum on a
completely different level than all of us, but our paths crossed when I
was working for the Associates--various Associates functions. And some
of those things for the Associates--I remember one year . . . when
(Felipe) Archuleta-- where did Archuleta come in? In any case,
Archuleta, the woodcarver in New Mexico--oh, I know why. OK--there was
an event for the (Associates)--and it must have been a dinner--an event
for the Associates, which was a group formed to give those people
interested in folk art--and at a higher level of ability (to pay) --to
(be able to) explore that. . . . Tours were done and they weren't cheap.
JB:
They were partly fundraisers for the museum.
MK:
Oh, OK, I don’t recall that.
JB:
At least in part.
MK:
But in any case, there was this one that I did the invitation for, and
the invitation was . . . a little crate that was only about four by six
inches and four inches high and was filled with straw and (inside it
was) a miniature wood-carved watermelon that was hand-carved by
Archuleta in New Mexico.
JB:
I wish I had one of those.
MK:
I have one. I still have it.
JB:
You should have.
MK:
I still have it, yes.
01:20:00
JB:
So how was Frank involved with that?
MK:
I just remember he would come and go during the course of the time that
I was working (on it), and Bette Chase--and I'm trying to remember who
else I had contact with during the Associates (events). And it may be
that I consulted with him on the invitations, or--I just don’t remember,
unfortunately, but that was the only other time with regard to the
museum that I really had much contact with him.
JB:
He may have been involved with the funding of that.
MK:
That could be. That could be. But my--
JB:
Although he did go on those Associates trips too.
MK:
Yeah. My primary contact with Frank, however, was when he (was) founder
and CEO of Wyle Labs. One year, he decided that he wanted to create a
little catalog of the art collection at Wyle Labs to be given as a
giveaway either during the holidays or at a fundraiser--I don’t recall.
And the unfortunate thing (was)--he had a beautiful collection there.
The unfortunate thing was--he came to me way too late. I told him that
it would take X amount of time to do it and X amount of money and we got
started on the (catalog) concept, and then he just pulled it, because he
knew he couldn't get it done in the timeframe that he wanted for the
event he wanted it for. So that, unfortunately didn't go through. And it
was sad because the art collection there was really quite nice. (Some
photographs of the Wyle Laboratories art collection are now with the
CAFAM Records, 1965-1997, at UCLA Library Special Collections; see Box
482, folder 19 and Box 490, folders 1-10.)
JB:
Yes, he ended up donating that collection to the museum, although I
don’t think any of it was ever actually stored there. It pretty much
remained there (at Wyle Laboratories until it was in the auction at
Butterfield's in 1998).
MK:
And we had some rapport--for whatever reason--after that. I still to
this day get his Christmas card that he usually does--
JB:
Filled with grandchildren and great grandchildren.
MK:
But my most treasured one, that I remember, is one that he took--it was
a photo he took on the ranch. (It) was in the winter and it was just a
solitary tree in this field of white, and it was just an incredible
photo. Those were the days when he was using images from the ranch. Now
he uses images of his family. But, anyway--so my dealings with Frank
during the later years were always on a very congenial, sort of par
level--to a degree. But I really didn't know him in any real way other
than that.
JB:
So, Max, you have quite a few publications that you brought with you,
and I know you have some special memories of some of them. Would you
like to--are there any in particular you’d like to talk about?
MK:
Yeah, there are a few. Just because more things happened with them, not
only from a design standpoint, but even from--I suppose--a cultural one.
Let me just quickly . . . take a look at our chronological list of
exhibitions here, which I--
JB:
(laughing) That would keep us here all day.
MK:
--thoroughly enjoy, I have to say. We were talking about the Associates.
The thing I liked about designing for the Associates was that it gave me
the opportunity to think outside the box just a little bit. And there
are a couple of (memorable) things that were done. I mentioned the
watermelon that we had carved by Felipe Archuleta. That was one. Another
one . . . was one we had commissioned Frank Romero to do--a little
drawing of one of his cars and we reproduced this. I'm trying to--oh you
know what--this is, yeah, for an Associates evening of festivities in
honor of the artists from the exhibition Murals of Aztlan: (Street
Painters of East Los; opened April 28, 1981).
JB:
That was a fantastic exhibition.
01:25:00
MK:
It was, and I probably would like to talk a little further about that
when we get down to it, but this particular thing was an Associates
event relative to that exhibition. And so, what it was, it was (one of
the cars) that Frank (Romero) was so famous for doing. He did a little
black line drawing, which we then printed and made into an oversize
envelope. Eight by nine was the standard size that we used for many of
the catalogs and for the Primavera invitations. It sort of just became
the museum size. We were known for that actually. So this little thing
is an envelope that is that size, has one side that is cut open so that
you can pull the invitation out of it. So on the cover is this little
car that Frank actually
hand-colored and there is a window where the windshield goes that we put
cellophane in and so you can see through to the invitation itself, and
that part of the windshield has two skulls driving the car. So, in any
case, that was a lot of fun because it was, again, thinking outside the
box. It wasn't just a sort of straight kind of thing. It allowed for
creativity.
JB:
(Sound of garbage truck outside.) I'm going to interrupt us for the
garbage truck. (Recording paused.) Just a moment--here we go. OK.
MK:
So--in addition to the invitation that we did for the Associates program
relative to Murals of Aztlan and Frank Romero-- we also did one that was
a lot of fun--for me in any case--and this one was not particularly
relevant to any exhibition, but it was in honor of Mr. and Mrs. Henry
Fonda and Mr. and Mrs. William Wyler. And the Wylers were connected to
the museum.
JB:
Mrs. (Talli) Wyler, I think, was on the board for several years.
MK:
I actually remember going up to their property off of Sunset--I don’t
remember why--but in any case, so this invitation was for a dinner that
was being held in honor of the Fondas and the Wylers and the invitation
actually took the form of a little book that we handmade for--however
many people--20, 30 people that it was made for--and it's lined with
marbleized handmade papers on the inside. Each one was different, and
the book itself was covered with all handmade papers again. It was
letter-pressed as opposed to offset-printed, which is just a different
process, but one--you know, much more classic and--
JB:
And it shows. I mean anyone that really knows (about printing) --
MK:
Yeah. And the invitation itself was printed on rag paper, handmade rag
paper, that had the deckle edge. So, this was a very classic piece, but
again, it took the form of something very special and different than
what was normally done. The only other invitation that I actually have
here that I suppose is of note in some way is for a dinner that was held
by the board of trustees for Mrs. (Anwar) Sadat when we had an--I don’t
know if it was an exhibition--Egypt Today-- or was that--
JB:
That was more--it wasn't an exhibition. There was later an exhibition of
Egyptian things, but not at the time of her visit. There was something
called "Egypt Today" that was one of a series of (citywide) events that
were coordinated by the Craft and Folk Art Museum but the concept
originated in Washington DC.
MK:
"An American Symposium," and then it talks about the various
"Smithsonian, National Endowment of the Arts," etc., etc. and then it
gets down, "full cooperation of the government of Egypt, regionally
coordinated by the Craft and Folk Art Museum of Los Angeles." So--in any
case—(for) this symposium, there was a dinner held by the board of
trustees and I did the invitation for that. And again, that one was a
little bit special in that we had an image that was blind embossed into
paper. It was all--
JB:
Very elegant.
MK:
Again--you know--elegant and handmade paper and so forth and so on. So
there were cases-- aside from the catalogs—(which were mass produced) to
do these other things that were much more (about) craft with regard to
design and the production of things . . . . So--going through some of
the catalogs--we talked about Artesanos Mexicanos. Probably the next one
in line, which was also 1978, was Close Packing and Cracking: (An
Exhibition of Works by Bradley R. Miller; opened October 23, 1978). I
worked with Bradley Miller, the artist. And I loved his things because
on the cover of the catalog it looks like it's just a bunch of rocks put
there that have all been washed up on a beach somewhere, and just
beautiful colors and shapes, etc. but they all look like rocks. In fact,
they are pieces that he has actually tumbled in--well, it's a--
JB:
Tumbler.
MK:
--tumbler that is used for jewelry and other kinds of stones.
JB:
But they're so diverse.
MK:
They are totally diverse, and textures.
JB:
Incredibly natural.
01:30:00
MK:
And colors--just incredible--and shapes. Because they're not all round.
I mean they're tumbled and so the edges are taken off --
JB:
But he obviously manipulated the tumbler so that they could all be
different. Do you remember who the photographer was--because those are
quite lovely?
MK:
I don’t know. And you know, for whatever (she reads): "Photography,
Bradley Miller." There we go. He did it then. Sometimes we didn't credit
in the catalogs who did the design and the photography and sometimes we
did; it just depended. But the thing I enjoy about this is that one of
the pieces that he did--he took several pieces of clay, white porcelain
clay, and he put them together and wrapped them with a single string
around them and then he tumbled them and they came out like a ball, and
so you have like all these layers of clay that are put together in a
ball shape and just incredible, beautiful little forms. And he gave me
one of those after we did the catalog, and I have it to this day, and it
was something--I was actually shocked--Marcie Page, who I have remained
friends with, but don’t see all that often anymore, told me--I don’t
know, a few years back, when she lived in Santa Monica, where I also
live--that that little piece was worth like $1,000 or something, you
know? And I was--oh my gosh--I didn't know. But anyway, it's a cherished
piece, doesn't matter how much it's worth or whatever. And I see Bradley
(once in a while) and Shan Emanuelli, who I also have remained friends
with; we went to Art Walk this last year, and Bradley was there. He even
had a little studio exhibition and (was) doing things completely
differently--doesn't have anything to do with clay any more--it's all
photography on glass, and things of that nature and images that come
about there. But, anyway--so I enjoyed working on that particular
exhibition. Traditional Toys of Japan; (opened April 30, 1979) was all
about Edith, and I worked very closely with her. We produced a catalog,
postcards, etc., and it was all just trying to get in her head, so to
speak, and produce her vision. So that was actually-- you know--it was a
pleasure to do that, but I worked very closely with her on that. Textile
Traditions of Afghanistan: (opened July 10, 1979) --I'm wondering if
that's where we brought the yurt in.
JB:
Yes, it is.
MK:
Is it? The yurt. Oh gosh, that was such a--
JB:
I've often thought about that show, since in recent years this country
has been (at war there).
MK:
(That was) my first exposure to Middle Eastern . . . tribal cultures.
And yeah, pretty incredible that we had it back then, and saw what it
was all about, and now we're looking (at it) on CNN and--
JB:
Yes.
MK:
New Mexico: Space and Images (opened November 26, 1979) was the next . .
. exhibition. I worked with Shan Emanuelli on that. And her vision--she
actually curated that particular one. It says curated by Arthur Adair
and Dextra Frankel, but Shan was very (involved).
JB:
Yeah, she . . . organized the part that came (to CAFAM); it was a
multi-part show (that came from the Albuquerque Museum) originally and
she organized the part that came to CAFAM.
MK:
So I worked with her, and she wanted to make a poster as opposed to--we
didn't really do a catalog . . . . She did a poster--or we did a
poster--and the catalog listings were . . . on the back, and it was fun
because it wasn't the traditional shape. It was very long and thin so it
was like ten inches high and probably the width of a press sheet.
JB:
Yes, I have a (framed) copy in my office here.
MK:
But she was very instrumental in working with me on interpreting just
her vision of what the desert in New Mexico looked like in a certain
light and color, and she was very particular about achieving a certain
shade of green . . . . She had this in her head and she was very clear
about exactly what . . . she wanted. And so we worked really well on
that and came out with a piece that I--to this day--really enjoy.
JB:
I do too.
MK:
Actually, I like it a lot.
JB:
Now that I'm even more familiar with New Mexico, I can tell you it
really does--
MK:
It does resonate, doesn't it? It’s totally what that is.
JB:
It's the landscape.
MK:
It totally is. Four Leaders in Glass; (opened January 29, 1980). That
was my first exposure to Dale Chihuly who--
JB:
Yes, just imagine.
MK:
Yeah, boy.
JB:
He was fairly well-established then.
MK:
1980.
JB:
But not nearly like he is today.
01:35:00
MK:
Not like he is now. Last summer--summer before--I visited his studio in
Washington and also visited Dick Weiss, who . . . was also (in) that
exhibition. It was Dale Chihuly, Richard Marquis, Dick Weiss, and
Therman Statom. And so Chihuly--of course--you see all over the place in
Tacoma.
JB:
But all of those artists have achieved a real stature now.
MK:
To different degrees, but yes.
JB:
Dick Weiss maybe not quite as much, but still, Shan really helped to
discover them.
MK:
Yeah, no, she did. And Therman Statom I love--at Art Walk I often see
his pieces to this day.
JB:
So that was a terrific catalog also.
MK:
Thank you. So, the next one probably to talk about is Traditional
Textiles of Tunisia; (exhibition opened April 8, 1980) and that one was
brought to us by Trudy Reswick, who actually has lived (in Tunisia).
Maybe at the time she lived there, but (now) she lives in Washington DC.
JB:
Yes, I remember.
MK:
And the reason that's important for me is it was the first . . .
monograph produced by CAFAM and they . . . had great aspirations about
how they were going to produce this series of--
JB:
I think it was maybe the first and the last.
MK:
It was the first and the last actually, published in 1981.
JB:
Of that extent.
MK:
It was, but that was again a baby of Edith’s. She really wanted--she had
this vision about how she would like to focus very deeply on one
particular subject, and that particular book--the illustrations were all
hand-painted and then photographed for the book. Although I have it and
probably can look, I don’t recall there being much photography in it. I
think for the most part--
JB:
A lot of it was charts, diagrams of the weavings.
MK:
Of weavings and styles and things of that nature. Why this is
additionally important (to me), however, is that I had the opportunity,
years later, to travel with Trudy to Tunisia.
JB:
Oh, you did? How wonderful.
MK:
So it was one of my times when I was working like an absolute dog
in--probably it was (the) late 80s, early 90s--don’t recall exactly
when. And I remember flying to her house in DC. She lives in Falls
Church--somewhere in that area--and walking into the room I was to sleep
in, and every surface was covered with a textile, every surface: the
walls--every wall--every surface. And I collapsed in that room, and
stayed in that room asleep for about a day and a half, because I had
been working so intensely and it was just--I was so exhausted. But I got
up from that, and that was just before we left, and her husband, Jim,
and I and Trudy, we flew to Yugoslavia—(what was) then Yugoslavia--and
got off the plane and took a bus to this place (where) he was speaking
at a seminar. He was a developer of robotics for health.
JB:
I didn't know that.
MK:
Yeah, he was one of the premier inventors of robotics for health issues,
and he was giving a talk in--I'm trying to remember the town--don’t
remember the town. In any case, on that bus from the airport to this
little town, (we were) looking outside--seeing all of the militia with
their machine guns. It was the first time I’d actually been--well I
can't say the first time--I remember being on a beach in Mexico and
seeing them walk up and down the beach with machine guns--but really (it
was) the first time that--you really . . . understood that you were in a
place that wasn't exactly stable. And obviously, it wasn't all that many
years (after that) that the whole thing blew up there. But from
Yugoslavia, we traveled to Tunisia--just Trudy and I--Jim came back. And
we took a car and we began in Tunis, the capital city, and . . . went
down into the south, basically just touring and hunting for textiles.
And had an absolutely marvelous experience coupled (with) (laughter), my
first introduction to an Islamic country, and understanding that I had
to not only behave, but dress in particular ways which--
JB:
How did you have to dress? I mean did you always have to have a head
covering, for example?
MK:
I did not at that point. I did that in Ethiopia though, I have to tell
you.
JB:
Tunisia is a little more liberal, I guess, slightly.
MK:
You know--at that time, again you know, what? Probably late 80s, early
90s--most of the women . . . in Tunis did not necessarily dress in the
hajib or whatever the particular term for that particular (type) of
cover is in that . . . country, because I know that there are many
terms--
JB:
They're different, yes.
01:40:00
MK:
For . . . variations of it. But it was--we were there during Ramadan
too, oh my gosh. Which was really interesting, because it was the
breaking of fast. Each night, you know, you fasted all day and each
night everybody went out and ate. And (in) a country (where) you don’t
drink alcohol--Trudy and I would be sitting there
downing a bottle of wine in one dinner. I mean it was really funny.
JB:
And that was OK?
MK:
And that was OK. And we were women, too, which--you know--it was
interesting. I look back on the times-- But in any case, we rented a
car, and we went down into the south and we went into this little town
and were stopped by a policeman, official, whatever, and I did not speak
Arabic nor French; Trudy spoke French and a little bit of Arabic. She
was raised in the Peace Corps, so to speak. And she’s German. She’s
German, she spent many years in the Peace Corps and so she had the
language behind her.
JB:
Was that how she got to Tunisia originally?
MK:
I don’t recall. I don’t know why Tunisia. I think, actually, it was (the
Peace Corps). She was working--because water, you know, water is a major
issue in under-developed countries--the contamination of it, the lack of
fresh water, and the diseases that come from that. And she was working,
in particular, with that, and I believe she was working in Tunisia,
which is what developed her interest in it--and then textiles became her
thing, and she collected (them) and traveled and so forth and documented
and, obviously, wrote the monograph. So, this policeman sort of waylaid
us, and she was--afterwards she told me that he was about ready to take
us away and do whatever he wanted with us, and she was able to . . .
talk him out of it and, of course, (with) me clueless, I didn't have a
clue there. But in this little city, I remember seeing (that) the women
were all walking with the kids, and they were all in total black, (with
the) head cover (and) the mask for the face. . . . and we would walk in
the markets, and I don’t recall ever being—feeling--uncomfortable. Not
there--didn’t ever feel uncomfortable. We got in a sandstorm out in the
middle of the desert and--
JB:
My--the full experience.
MK:
The full experience, I'm telling you. A sandstorm out in the middle of
the desert, and sand was coming everywhere! I was driving, could not see
the road for love nor money, and sand was sifting in the windows. The
windows are all up in the car, (but) the sand sifts in the windows, and
Trudy and I had handkerchiefs that we wet and covered our faces with, so
that we could still breathe. So those were very interesting times. And
(we) saw lots of olive trees, and we saw all the tents that--you
know--the Bedouin tents and all of that.
JB:
Goat hair I think (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
MK:
Yeah, incredible time. And so that all (came) from my doing this one
Traditional Textiles of Tunisia book. The book that (came) directly
after that was a catalog--Malibu Tile (the exhibition opened June 24,
1980).—I did with . . . David Greenberg, (who) was the curator of that
(exhibition). In later years, I (designed) a full-on book of Malibu
Tile--
JB:
For the Malibu or Adamson House.
MK:
“The Adamson House and Malibu (Lagoon) Museum,” and we worked with the
families that were closely tied with the tile.
JB:
But they're still selling this (the CAFAM) catalog, I believe, or at
least they were three years ago.
MK:
They don’t have it (anymore), and (so) I produced a book called . . .
(Ceramic Art of the Malibu Potteries, 1926-1932, by Ronald L. Ringe.
Malibu Lagoon Museum, 1988; U. of Washington Press, 1994.) and that book
is out of print and long gone. I have a few copies myself, and they have
whatever they have. . . . . The University of Washington Press . . .
(published it in 1994). I . . . oversaw the printing overseas. I can't
remember if that was in Korea. That was in Japan, I believe. So, in any
case, those two exhibitions both led to work that later on that gave me
some marvelous experiences in . . . Japan. I was there for two weeks and
I can't tell you what an experience that was like. Stayed in Shinjuku .
. . (and) I remember (that) one of the very first exhibitions we had (at
CAFAM) was on Shinjuku. (Shinjuku: The Phenomenal City; opened September
21, 1982.)
JB:
All these connections.
MK:
Yeah. So, you know, that's--my life--is just connections. It's so
amazing. So much of what I have done has . . . been that. And then the
Mask as Metaphor (curated by Shan Emanuelli) and . . . the Masks in
Motion done by Willow (Young); one exhibition was done by Willow and the
other one was done by Shan, and (I was) working on those with both of
them very intimately. . . .
01:45:00
MK:
Yeah, Masks in Motion, Form and Function (opened September 24, 1980).
Mask as Metaphor in 1980 (opened October 16, 1980 in Gallery 3). . . .
That was the one (curated by) Shan for
. . . the Santa Monica Place Museum Gallery . . . . Masks in Motion:
Form and Function was the title of the one curated by Willow and . . .
the image for that (invitation) was the Zuni mud mask, I believe. And
I'm trying to--as I recall--those were all ethnic masks . . . The
(contemporary) one was called Mask as Metaphor: A Contemporary Artists'
Invitational . . . . That was special because we did an invitation--we
didn't do a catalog for that one--but the invitation (was) back in that
eight by nine size, again blind-embossed-- it was the image of Claes
Oldenburg’s mouse mask.
JB:
Mickey Mouse.
MK:
Mickey Mouse. That was the image used for that and so that was a lot of
fun.
JB:
That was a terrific (show); it was a big show. It completely filled that
space.
MK:
And that gallery space lasted for a few years. Santa Monica Place was
designed (by Frank Gehry) . . . .
JB:
It was only one year. It was really--and I'm glad you brought it up,
because I think you did work mostly with Shan and maybe with Susan
Skinner on that.
MK:
Perhaps. Patrick Ela was very instrumental in making that happen, making
that gallery happen. And he actually worked with an ad agency to produce
the initial image which was a blue-black poster that had a three carved
out of sand on it.
JB:
I thought you and Shan put that together.
MK:
No, that was done, and if I only could remember--I have the poster here
and if I--I think I have it and if I got it out--
JB:
I remember that poster.
MK:
No, it was an ad agency that Patrick was close to. Patrick was also--he
always enjoyed that aspect of things. He always enjoyed graphic design
and would search out relationships with various designers around town.
He liked doing that.
JB:
So who did that, who created that image?
MK:
That image, that poster was created by the ad agency. It was a man/woman
combination and I don’t recall if they were actually in a relationship
or not, or if they were just working partners. I don’t remember. . (The
poster for Gallery 3 was designed by the firm of Fotouhi Alonso.) . . .
. But I participated in the sense that we shot it down on the beach in
Santa Monica.
JB:
That's what I remember being told. You and Shan had put together the
sand sculpture.
MK:
We carved the big "3" in the sand, and then it was lit by (Roger
Marschutz). . . . He shot the catalog for Made in L.A., which I'll talk
about in a second . . . . (He) shot that image down on the beach. And so
that image became the--I guess you could almost call it (the logo) . . .
for that gallery. But that poster was mailed out to all the (CAFAM)
membership to announce the existence of that gallery, (which) . . . had
been designed by Frank Gehry and had just opened. It was like this sort
of new thing. It was very well-regarded.
JB:
It's being torn down as we speak.
MK:
Yes, it's almost gone. So, in any case, that was fun and that exhibition
(Mask as Metaphor) was done out there.
JB:
Those shows--I wasn't really that aware of this at the time--but every
one of the shows at that gallery was a contemporary craft show.
MK:
Yes, it was. It was considered a contemporary gallery. That is the other
thing. Directly after that--1981 it says--Made in LA: Contemporary
Crafts '81 (opened April 12, 1981) that was curated and designed by
Bernard Kester. I worked closely with Bernard, who at that point also
was a curator, I believe, at LACMA and he did a lot of--
JB:
He was the designer there.
MK:
Exhibition designer, excuse me, at LACMA.
JB:
And he’s still doing it.
MK:
Oh, are you serious?
JB:
Yeah, I am serious. It's amazing that he is.
01:50:00
MK:
Yeah, I remember walking over and going through the galleries (with
him); he was talking to me about paint colors. It was really fun. So in
any case, he curated the (Made in L.A.) exhibition
, but I hired Roger Marschutz as the photographer to work on that
catalog, and we photographed in his studio all of the pieces (except)
the cover image, (which) was one that we combined (with) one of the
pieces in the exhibition, and it was--Shan has one of these things--I
can't remember the artist.
JB:
Yeah, he was featured in the--
MK:
John Garrett.
JB:
Oh, yes.
MK:
John Garrett, who did . . . weavings--constructions of plastic strips,
colorful plastic strips. (Overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
JB:
CAFAM had a piece (of his) in their permanent collection for a while.
MK:
They did, yeah. So . . . Roger and I, we decided to--because it was
"Made in L.A."--we decided to put some iconic image of L.A. on the
cover, and we chose the City Hall downtown. So we went down and we
looked at the City Hall and tried to figure out when to shoot it,
decided to shoot it at night, and at that point we were shooting film
because digital wasn't really happening (yet) and we were using all
kinds of color, experimenting with colored filters, and that's how we
came up with that image, and then it was put together with the image of
John Garrett’s piece.
JB:
That's a great--collage isn't the right word but--montage.
MK:
Montage, whatever. That catalog really meant a lot to me. I really
enjoyed a lot of the pieces in it. Again, it was pretty, to me--I don’t
know how much exposure I had or didn't have--but I really liked what I
saw in that catalog. (It had) a lot of contemporary craft that was very
visually pleasing. I really enjoyed it.
JB:
A wide range, very diverse in style.
MK:
Yeah, and (diverse in) material. Boy, I remember--from John Garrett’s
plastic textile piece to some of the ceramics . . . were just
incredible.
JB:
And then the very--really traditional--wood furniture of Sam Maloof.
MK:
Oh, and jewelry--oh my gosh, jewelry--as I'm looking through. Really
just--basketry, paper art--
JB:
So, you did design the catalog.
MK:
Oh, I did design the catalog, absolutely . . . . One little thing that
happened while Roger and I were shooting this City Hall thing--we went
and shot the City Hall and then afterwards we said--OK, let’s just go
get something to eat--we're downtown. So, we walk into the Biltmore
Hotel and decide to go to the restaurant there, because it was right
there. Of course, we’d been shooting all day, so we weren't exactly
dressed for the occasion. So, as we walk (in), they offer Roger a
jacket--
JB:
I'm not surprised. At that time--
MK:
At that time, exactly, you just weren't able to walk in--
JB:
That's a great story.
MK:
--you know, as you were.
JB:
That's typical of--
MK:
So, the maître d’ offered him a jacket so that we could enter, and I'm
thinking this is kind of sexist, isn't this funny, because he has to
wear a jacket but--god knows--what I was wearing. I don’t remember. They
didn't do anything for me, didn't make me conform in some way. But
anyway, that was just a little aside. Murals of Aztlan was actually the
next exhibition--1981-82. (Those years were) really filled with a lot of
exhibitions that . . . meant something to me. Murals of Aztlan--where
the artists, all of whom are very well-known Latino artists now--Latino
is not the right word because--
JB:
They were Chicano.
MK:
Chicano artists, thank you. When they made their big grids in the museum
space, and started to paint them--and that whole process of being on
scaffolding and the whole exhibition was not the finished piece but the
process--and then at the end we took incredible photographs of these--
JB:
Tom Vinetz, I believe was the (photographer).
MK:
Thank you. It finally came. Tom Vinetz.
JB:
I can tell you that he documented the whole process, starting with the
grids, and we have thousands--literally thousands--of slides in the
archive of that show (at UCLA Special Collections).
MK:
It's pretty incredible.
JB:
I'm so glad that he did that.
MK:
And then--and I don’t recall why I did this--but I went around, I don’t
know, maybe he and I were together--I think he and I were together--we
went around and photographed the (other) murals of these artists, and I
don’t know how the (photos) were used, but (we photographed the murals)
in place. We went to East L.A., where the Streetscapers painted, and we
photographed all the various buildings around Los Angeles (where there
were murals) . . . (done by the artists) who were working in this
exhibition. (The photographs became part of the exhibition poster, which
was designed by Frank Romero.)
JB:
I wonder where those--well, Tom probably has those pictures. (Or
possibly Frank Romero, the curator; besides designing the exhibition
poster, he created a slide show that accompanied the exhibition that
included some of the other L.A. murals the artists had done.)
01:55:00
MK:
Yeah, perhaps. I don’t remember why we even did that. I just remember
doing it. Directly after that was Shuji Asada; (opened April 29, 1981).
JB:
Yes, that was at Gallery Three.
MK:
That was at Gallery Three. We produced a poster that was again a
long--ten inches wide--pardon me--12 inches high--and 30 inches or 36
inches wide. And it was a triptych; it was of a triptych of his, and he
came over from Japan for the installation of this piece.
JB:
I don’t think he spoke English--or not very much.
MK:
He did not speak much English, I can vouch for that. And we had--Shan
had him for dinner, and I think Marcie and myself were invited, and it
was very interesting, that dinner, because he absolutely drank himself
under the table.
JB:
Oh my God.
MK:
That was really funny.
JB:
Somebody else was driving (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?
MK:
I think he actually stayed (overnight). I think he was staying with
Shan, to be honest. But in any case, it was fun because . . . Shan had
traveled to Japan. I mean I can't remember on either side of that, (but)
in any case she had spent some time in Japan--I can't recall if it was
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
JB:
I know she traveled there in connection with the puzzle show but that
was later.
MK:
Yeah, so maybe the timing wasn't right. But in any case, I believe he
either stayed in a local hotel . . . or he stayed with her, but it was
just-- it was a fun dinner.
JB:
Yeah, I bet.
MK:
The next one that meant anything really to me was (The Art of the) Dark
Crystal; (opened October 19, 1982), just because of Jim Henson, and who
he was, and just what that was all about. It was just an incredible sort
of exposure to the art of puppet-making and just who he was. I mean he
was a pretty spectacular guy. (Then) Black Folk Art in America
(1930-1980; opened December 7, 1982) and--
JB:
What a wonderful show that was.
MK:
(Then) Handmade in Nepal; (opened February 22, 1983) --working on that
piece, and then also (Four Villages): Architecture in Nepal; (exhibition
opened on the same date, February 22, 1983) --the catalog that I did.
And you know--and it goes on from there. There was a Greek one (The
Greek Ethos: Folk Art of the Hellenic World; opened February 20, 1979)
that I worked very closely with the curator on--all the Greek icons and
the silver--
JB:
Basil Jenkins.
MK:
Yes--and he lived over in Park La Brea, (an apartment complex near the
museum) and we’d talk about going both to Greece and Russia and getting
the icons. And how special they were. He was so--I'm trying to remember
if he was affiliated with LACMA as well.
JB:
He was affiliated with the Fowler, the original Fowler, not the Fowler
as it exists (now) at UCLA but--
MK:
He was a wonderful guy. He was totally immersed in all of this, (both)
academically and passionately about these icons. And I was just in
Greece this last summer, and I can't tell you what it brought back, as I
walked in and out of these churches seeing all these icons. It was
really incredible.
JB:
You were lucky to be able to go there.
MK:
So that's about it, with regard to my recollection of fun little things
having to do with the catalogs and the--
JB:
It's so fun to hear all these little stories, these personal
stories--but I'm just wondering if there's anyone else . . . you could
kind of give a thumbnail capsule of--some of these people that I know
you worked with. One of the things I want to say is I know that you were
very involved with almost everyone at the museum at any given time.
MK:
Out of necessity I was.
JB:
Yeah, out of necessity. You had to keep us on track, so that you
could--because you also did the newsletter. We haven't mentioned that.
MK:
Yeah, there were many things.
JB:
But whatever it was, there was a deadline, there was a schedule.
MK:
Yes, there was, and I'm sure I was (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) --
JB:
--the only one that was really aware of the schedule.
MK:
Yeah. Any number of events. I mean--Janet Marcus--I dealt a lot with
(her) because of the--well, that probably was because of the
Calendar--because all of her events having to do with children’s
education went into the Calendar.
JB:
The newsletter was called the Calendar.
MK:
Yeah, the newsletter . . . was called the Calendar, exactly. And then I
dealt very closely with Willow on the Festival of Masks—I did the
various posters for that throughout the years. And I still see the
people who produced those--the Festival of Masks--who now produce the
Santa Monica Festival to this day, twenty years later--or whatever it
is.
JB:
Is that Aaron Paley?
02:00:00
MK:
It is Aaron Paley and CARS (Community Arts Resources).
And then Shan, you know. I don’t see Willow. I haven't seen Willow for
many years. Shan and I remain very good friends and we travel during the
summer to the Vineyard. And Shan during those years, you know, I worked
with her on the exhibitions, oftentimes with (the exhibition) design, as
well as all the labeling. And Marcie Page, because she and Karen
Copeland were both registrars--working in that capacity, I was dealing
with them on labels. (When Karen became the Museum Educator in 1979, she
wrote the label copy.) Certainly, with you and not only because of our
close proximity, but the catalogs and the various other things and I'm
not even sure, editing? Did--
JB:
I got involved in the editing somewhat, although Marcie did more of
that.
MK:
Most of that--that is correct.
JB:
Shan, you know, was the first Festival of Masks coordinator (in 1977), I
mean after Edith (and Patrick) sort of handed it over.
MK:
It's kind of funny because I don’t ever associate her with that.
JB:
I don’t either. I have to remind myself of that, but she was the first
in--well, ’76 was when they (first) had just the parade--and then in ’77
was the first full-fledged festival, which Shan coordinated.
MK:
Shan and I were hired very close to one another, within months . . . .
JB:
And then Willow came along (as Shan's assistant for the 1978 Festival
and then in 1979 she became the Festival of Masks Coordinator) and
pretty much did it from there until she retired. Do you remember--Karen
was very involved with--after she stopped being the Registrar, she
became the Education Curator (and she wrote the exhibition label copy).
MK:
She did, actually, before Janet was hired.
JB:
And I remember her (education work) in particular on the Murals of
Aztlan; we had a lot of classes that came over and saw that.
MK:
Both Karen and Marcie, to their credit, were meticulous with regard to
not only the care of the objects, but to how (the objects) were labeled
in the exhibitions. And very organized, at least to my recall.
JB:
They were.
MK:
Extremely organized in how things came in and how things went out. I
remember Marcie, or Karen both--talking about--is it L.A. Packing and
Crating? (Probably Cooke's Crating.) Oh my God, the things came and
went.
JB:
Yes, there were some--a few little disasters here and there.
MK:
Those I actually don’t remember but in any case--and then Karen, of
course, when she had her baby--
JB:
Amanda.
MK:
Yeah, Amanda.
JB:
Amanda Lynn.
MK:
Exactly, and how Amanda came to work.
JB:
(The museum) was very--you know--progressive in that regard.
MK:
Yeah, it was--and she was the only one of us actually that went down
that road. And then Shan, of course, got married somewhere in there,
1980ish somewhere.
JB:
Yeah, we went to a few of the weddings, I think. And just like I was
saying before, there were so many parties or there were just so many
occasions for celebration in between all of the hard work--
MK:
Well, there were. I mean together with--even the openings, the openings
were always . . . these very festive things, because we always brought
in all these entertainers . . . or whatever it was associated with
those, we had all those parties. Then of course we had all the special
events like Primavera and--like I said--the dinner for Mrs. Sadat, etc.,
etc. So, there was always a lot of activity and gaiety and reasons to
have a good time, in addition to all the hard work, so it kind of made
it pay off.
JB:
And just to finish up about your working with everyone, certainly
besides Patrick and Edith, we all worked with whoever were their
assistants, their secretaries--Brenda and, well, Merat, of course-- but
Brenda was there for a long time. (Brenda worked at CAFAM from 1981 –
1985; she worked first as Edith Wyle's assistant and then, after Edith's
retirement, she worked for Patrick Ela.)
MK:
She was. Yeah, she worked with Edith following Merat--and Brenda also is
a very meticulous person and very precise, to the point of "Martha
Stewart" perfection--she is.
JB:
But very creative too.
MK:
Absolutely--very creative. And she actually comes from a film family. I
think her father produced or directed, I can't remember what it was, but
in any case, she comes from a film family. She ended up--when she left
CAFAM, she went to work for NBC and is . . . to this day--Director of
Photography (and Photo Producer) there.
JB:
Oh, I didn't know that.
MK:
Yes, and is about to retire, given another year and a half. I traveled
to Australia with her recently.
JB:
That must have been fun.
02:05:00
MK:
So, as you can see,
I talk about family--for me those core five or six people, whatever it
was--are people that still remain in my life one way or another, and a
couple of them very closely. So it was a great time for me, and great
associations, and I was very grateful for having the ability to really
work with all aspects of things, and I'm sure I was a little bit of
a--you know--I had to get things done, and I had deadlines, so I'm sure
that that affected people but--
JB:
Thank goodness for that! I sometimes think we wouldn't have gotten
anything done if it wasn't for that. Just briefly--the restaurant. Did
you know Ian Barrington?
MK:
I did know Ian. Not really, really closely. He and John Browse, of
course, were very close and I believe John took care of Ian during the
time that he was struggling with AIDS and passing.
JB:
The restaurant was such an integral part of the concept when we were
working there and then, of course, it had to close when we moved to the
May Company (in 1989). That, of course, was after you had left.
MK:
Yeah. It was. And Ian, I mean you know, he really contributed on many
levels . . . . As I think you commented on, he was devising all these
dishes that were complementary to the exhibitions that were going on and
so he was very much a part of the whole--
JB:
He was very serious about food.
MK:
Yeah, absolutely.
JB:
He subscribed to the Journal of Gastronomy and when the museum was going
to close and move to the May Company--and of course that meant that the
restaurant had to close also--he gave the library those journals.
MK:
I didn't know that. That’s interesting.
JB:
When I interviewed John Browse, he told me that Ian was required--I
guess, by whatever board committee it was--to come up with different
menu items, which they would come then and taste and judge. And John
said that those were just excruciating times for Ian, because he tried
so hard and it seemed--this was John speaking--it seemed like they
always found fault no matter how good.
MK:
You know, dealing with a committee, what do you expect? All kinds of
different people come from all different perspectives and experiences,
etc. and in a way, I see that it's kind of sad that Ian would have been
subjected to that because, honestly, he was putting his heart and soul
and all his knowledge into what he was developing, and then he was
coming and having to be judged and critiqued by people who perhaps had
not an ounce of that knowledge. So, I'm sure that that was not easy for
him. And I kind of wonder--why that was necessary--why the trust
couldn't just be there that his contribution was what it was.
JB:
You put it very well. I do want to wrap this up. We’ve heard so much
from you. No, it's been great.
MK:
We each have our own perspective, because we each just did our own
little thing and so it's--
JB:
That's what really has made this oral history project so wonderful.
MK:
I'm sure it is.
JB:
I'm wondering--can we just fit in a couple of minutes to find out--were
there any board members, we're talking about the board, that you--no, I
guess Trudy was not a board member. But you said that you worked with
some of the Associates, many of whom were board members. How about Gere
Kavanaugh, who was a designer (and was a board member)?
MK:
Gere Kavanaugh I did (work with). She was an interior designer herself
and she was well-respected and very determined to have her vision be
exactly what her vision was. As I look down the list I see names, I'm
going to just say--forgive me--I see names that I recognize, and I
honestly can't put them with the experiences.
JB:
(You may not have) had that much to do—luckily--with any of them.
02:10:00
MK:
Ruth Bowman, Mona Coleman--I have a feeling that (I knew) both of them,
because they were
also Associates, I'm thinking that they were. Tomi Haas? I believe also
was an Associate and I do remember her. (Tomi later began using her
family name of Kuwayama.) Rita Lawrence of course. Edward Tuttle because
I worked closely with him in the early years. Milton Zolotow because I
worked early on with him. And I'm reading the list from the very first
Primavera board.
JB:
But a lot of those people did continue for quite a few years and--
MK:
I didn't really have that much interaction on the board level. I just
didn't. I didn't have cause to really do that unless they were
interacting with me for some need that they had design-wise.
JB:
They were really a whole other kind of (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
level of oversight that did not interact much with staff—(except for
Patrick).
MK:
Mark Gallon--I did work very closely with, because he was doing
development at that point, and he was running--or not running--but had
to do with the Associates because of whatever fundraising activities
they were doing. And then, of course, with Primavera because that was
also a fundraising event. So, I worked--I remember that cute little car
he had. It was a little 280SL convertible. It was very sweet. I always
envied him that little car.
JB:
For some reason, I wasn't aware of that.
MK:
So yeah, board members--aside from just a few, I really didn't have much
contact.
JB:
I remember they kept adding to the board and at one point I thought,
"Gee, now they outnumber us," and it was almost a "we" versus "them"
feeling often.
MK:
That might have been--certainly for you because you probably had more
contact--
JB:
I think for a lot of the staff that (feeling of separation from the
board) was true because we would hear these remarks that had been made,
but it was usually not directly. It was secondhand.
MK:
I have to say that (during) my time there, I enjoyed a remarkable
independence. I was sort of left to do what I did best. Certainly, there
was direction, and times that I worked with people--I worked with people
a lot--but for the most part I was very independent and could come and
go, do what I needed to do, and did what I needed to do.
JB:
I think you were actually very lucky and probably that was the only way
that you could do the kind of very precise, detailed work that you did.
MK:
Maybe. I mean aside from even what I was doing with my own business, the
museum, all the interaction that I had with all of the members of the
staff from Patrick and Edith all the way down to--gosh, I remember there
were some volunteers that worked with me, two of them, during the
Maskerade Ball and--Lisa Block, who, I don’t know if you remember, her
mother--
JB:
The name is familiar.
MK:
--was very active in textiles and at UCLA--and she encouraged Lisa to
come and do volunteer work at the museum and Lisa had some graphic
design experience, so she came to work with me. Lisa popped up years
later when I had my daughter and was applying to Willows, which is an
elementary community private school in Culver City, and Lisa was one of
the people that had formed that school just a year or two earlier.
Unfortunately, Lisa passed away of cancer about a year ago or so--a
couple of years ago. So, I had contact, as I said, from Edith and
Patrick down to volunteers working, and then the shop and everybody
else. But also, because of what I did, it was very hard to pin me down,
because I was in so many places doing so many different things for so
many different people that even if they wanted to, they couldn't. It
just wouldn't work.
JB:
Let me just clarify something. You did form your own company and you
were working on other projects, but wasn't there a period of time when
you were exclusively working as a staff member?
MK:
Absolutely. I don’t think I actually did work on my own until about
1982, three, four. Probably 1982.
JB:
So it was just the last couple of years.
MK:
Last couple of years. And that was a result, as I said, of these various
people. I mean, I think I even did some (independent) work for Gere or
for Tomi. I think Tomi Haas had a pillow business, or Gere had a pillow
business.
JB:
Gere, I think.
02:15:00
MK:
Yeah, where ethnic textiles were converted to pillows--and she had a
showroom in the PDC (Pacific Design Center). But in any case, it was
only through all the work that I did (at CAFAM) that I began doing this
extra work. That came as a result of all the work
I was doing at the museum itself. So yeah, for many years from 1977 to
probably 1982, I was exclusive with the museum.
JB:
All right, I just wanted to clarify that, because you were always
working on so much for the museum, and it makes one wonder how you did
it.
MK:
It's called a strong work ethic, and just being willing to do what needs
to be done. And you know, graphic design for the most part had been my
life. I mean--it was, you know.
JB:
We were very fortunate to--I mean I feel very fortunate to know you
still.
MK:
Thank you.
JB:
And the museum was certainly fortunate to have you to kind of set the
standard, really. I feel that way, that during those (early) years,
which were--and I think also, you said--were "the golden age," and I do
think of those years as being (that way).
MK:
It was a very special time, no question.
JB:
And so, we always had those catalogs (that showed) how good we could be,
and that was very satisfying.
MK:
Just the breadth of what we were all exposed to and what we--
JB:
It was a real education, wasn't it?
MK:
Absolutely.
JB:
All right, Max.
MK:
Thank you. . . . It was good talking with you.
JB:
I thank you so much for recalling all of this with me.
MK:
Yeah, who knew?
JB:
Exactly.
MK:
--that all this would come out.
JB:
Thank you.
02:17:40
MK:
You're welcome. (End of Session)