Interview of James John

This is Ruth Bayhylle. Today is June 16, 2011. I am in Lincoln Heights at the First American Indian Church, speaking with James John. James, what is your full name?

James, first name, last name, John.

When and where were you born?

I was born in Ganado, Arizona, May 2, 1926.

Oh, goodness. How many in your family?

There’s seven of us, three sisters and four boys.

And where were you in the seven. Were you in the middle or one of the older ones?

Well, I’m the oldest.

You’re the oldest.

The oldest.

Oldest of everyone, okay. And again, what was the name of your village, the name of your town in—

It’s called Klagetoh.

How do you spell it? K-l-a—

K-l-a-g-e-t-o-h.

And that’s near the city of Ganado, is that right?

That’s right.

Where did you go to school when you were living in Klagetoh, go to school?

I went to a different school than I started from, Klagetoh, when I was little. Then I went to [unclear] Boarding School. From there I went to Stewart Indian School in Carson City, Nevada. From there I went to Ganado Public School for two years. After that I went to Sherman Indian High School in Riverside, California, my high school days.

So you went to a number of boarding schools throughout your young lifetime. What was the reason you went to so many schools?

When I was at Sterling, they were really strict, and I didn’t really like the way they treated us, and so I decided to go to another school, which was at—well, actually, before Sherman, I went to Ganado Public School for two years, and then from there I went to Sherman Indian High School. I just wanted to go to a different school. That was my thinking.

What was it like going to Sherman?

It was really neat. We had trade school. We had nice teachers and help you. They prepare you for a job after you leave high school. After you leave high school, they say—mostly it was more vocational training besides academic. So that was what I like about that.

So you had a positive experience at Sherman then, would you say?

Yes.

Back in Klagetoh, though, what kind of work did your family do, your father, and your mother if she worked somewhere as well? What kind of work did they do?

My father was a farmer, a farmer, and my mom was a [unclear]. She stayed home, housekeeping.

Took care of the family?

Uh-huh.

Your father was a farmer? Did he also have livestock, as well, sheep and cattle?

He also had sheep and cattles. He depended on that for his income or whatever you call it. We took care of sheep and horses, too.

There in Klagetoh, tell me about some of your other relatives that lived near you. Did you have a lot of family there, your family, your mother and father and their families?

I had my father’s sister, my cousins, and my father’s brother, which is my uncle. They live a little ways from us, and we’re almost close to each other. We can almost see each other and visit each other, and that’s the way it was. We all live in a different area, but you’re kind of close to each other.

You didn’t live there. It sounds like you were going to a lot of different schools by the time you were, what, ten, twelve years old?

Twelve. Fourteen, fifteen.

When you lived out on your reservation then, if you got sick or something happened, you had an accident or something, where did you go for healthcare or where did you see a doctor?

There was a hospital near. The closest one is Ganado. It’s called Sage Memorial Hospital.

Sage?

S-a-g-e, Sage Memorial Hospital, but that’s a private hospital. There was an Indian Health Clinic also, Indian Health Hospital in Fort Defiance.

Which was how far away from Klagetoh?

That was about another twenty miles, fifteen, twenty miles.

To Fort Defiance?

Fort Defiance.

I know there was a large or a very well-known Indian school at Ganado. You never went there, though. You never went to Ganado Indian School, is that right?

Just Ganado Public School for two years, but then at a mission, Ganado Mission. It’s no longer there, but I never attended it, just the public school.

It seems that would have been the most likely place for you to go to school, to a boarding school if you were going anywhere. Growing up as a young man, did your family participate in the cultural activities and the dances and the ceremonies around as needed in the community?

My dad and my mom, they had what you call a squaw dance. They participated in singing and dancing, and even the medicine man used to come and sing over us.

If you needed help.

If I needed help. Then they had some other ceremony that we never really took part, but mostly it’s squaw dance and medicine man.

Who comes to the house then when you need him.

Comes to the house.

What about your church, your sort of Christian religion experience then? Did you go to church out there, too, as well, Christian church?

I was brought up as a Catholic. We didn’t attend Catholic Church, but it was kind of quite a way. We never had a chance to attend Catholic Church Mass, they call it, but that’s the only thing that I had the background from the beginning.

When did you first hear about relocation, do you remember?

I heard of it when I was at Sherman Indian High School.

What year was that, by the way, James, when you were—

Back in 1963.

And what did you hear about relocation then?

That they offer jobs after you leave high school. They put you on a placement job, or whatever they call it at the time. So that’s the first time I heard about it.

Do you remember if they came to your classroom and made an announcement, or did they have an assembly and then talk about it to all the students? Do you remember how that worked? Or did the counselor call you in and explain it to you?

They had a—what do you call it—job placement office.

On campus anyway.

On campus anyway. This man, he was in charge of the job placement, but this job placement also for the student that want to work on weekends. Then after that, then I heard more about that job placement after you leave high school. So that’s how I heard more about it.

So they announced it to the school, to you. Did they explain to you how it worked or what you might be expected to do?

At first I didn’t really know what it’s all about, but as I was getting close to my senior year, they explain us a little more, that you’re going to be placed in a job through the BIA [Bureau of Indian Affairs] and you can get a job there and be on your own.

Did they tell you where you could expect to go or describe the cities, or did you just sort of assume you would go to Los Angeles?

We had a choice to different cities. So there’s different cities that they said that we can go, so I chose Los Angeles.

Why did you choose Los Angeles?

Since I was in high school at Sherman, since I was still in California, I decided to stay out here. I want to stay in California.

Prior to this experience then, what kinds of dealings or experience had you had with the BIA back in Klagetoh, other than going to the boarding schools? Did you ever have to go in to do some business with your father or did you ever have to speak to the agent, the Indian agent, about anything, or have too much to do with the BIA?

I did a little business with the BIA when I went to the office in Fort Defiance, maybe for a school that I want to go to or have questions about it, or maybe for identification, something like that. I went there for that, and that’s probably it, and then when I was going through a new job, in the way of jobs.

Okay, so jobs and to get your school situation squared away. But other than that, it doesn’t sound like you had a whole lot of interaction with the BIA then in your life there in Arizona. The agency was at Fort Defiance, is that right?

Yes, it was Fort Defiance.

Fort Defiance agency.

I’m not sure if it’s still there or not, but they still have some BIA office in the area.

Before we leave this and go directly into how you came to Los Angeles then, I wanted to ask you if you can describe sort of a normal, regular day in your boarding school experience. What would that be like? You said you enjoyed it at Sherman. What would be a typical day at Sherman Indian School for you back in those days?

I was away from my parents for about nine months and then three months at home, so when I first got there, I was homesick and I wanted to go home, I guess, at one point, but then I realized I had to get used to it. That was the main thing that I realized, I need to get used to it, because the boarding school, everything is free, food and the rooms and everything. So that was probably the main thing that I kind of—

And those were the things you needed then.

Uh-huh.

You needed a place to stay and something to eat while you went to school somewhere. What kinds of things did you do in school then? You played sports and went to class—I’m sure you did—and then you played sports as well? Did you play ball?

I didn’t really play basketball, but on my own we just play outside. There’s a goal out there, just outside, and shoot around, that was the only thing I did. Oh, I did take part in playing pool. I liked playing pool. We had a tournament that I went to. And going to school, plus learning about a trade and that stuff, that was the only thing that I kind of did.

What kind of vocational training did you receive there then? What did you take up?

I took mill and cabinet, they call it. It’s carpentry.

So you learned to build cabinets and other kinds of fixtures out of wood.

Yes.

So you used saws and—

Saw, yeah, putting all those things together, mostly wood.

Different kinds of woods that you could use. Who were your friends at your school? Did you have one good friend or lots of other friends that you—

A few best friends. There’s one that I know that used to be a real good friend, and I lost contact with him, but good friends. That was another thing I realized I needed to have, to have a friend so at least I can talk to somebody.

Were you able to speak your language with—you’d make friends, other Navajo friends and other Navajo people there at the school that you were able to talk your language together?

Yes, I was able to speak Navajo language to other Navajo friends, and that was easy to talk to and communicate.

So the first you heard about relocation, that came into your class was at Sherman. They told you about this program. You could go somewhere and be trained, and they’d help you find a job. How did you get involved with it then? How did you sign up for relocation? Walk me through what you did.

Well, from Sherman, after graduated from Sherman, I wanted to go on relocation, get a job. I wanted to go to L.A. Trade-Tech here in Los Angeles, but they didn’t have any openings. So I said there’s an opening over at Haskell Institute at that time. It’s a different name now, but it’s in Lawrence, Kansas. I went there two years. I took another trade, more carpentry.

So this was after you finished high school then. You went back to Haskell, okay, for two more years of vocational—

Training.

—instruction, training. How did that work for you? Was that helpful, or did you have a good experience?

Yeah, it really helped me because I realized that without this relocation I wouldn’t be out here. I probably would have been back home. But I realized that I need to get this program so I can get a job through them. So when I was at Haskell, they put me on the relocation program. I went home for one month, and they called me from L.A. office, BIA office, and they sent me over here. I came on a Greyhound. I had to go to the boarding house first.

Where did you catch the bus at then when you left your home?

I catch the bus at Gallup, New Mexico.

How did you get to Gallup?

One of our neighbors, he has a pickup, so either my dad or my mom, I think, took me there. So that’s the only way we can get around.

So you caught the bus at Gallup. What time of day did you arrive in Los Angeles then, do you remember? Was it morning or the middle of the night or—

It was in the morning. I left in the evening, I think.

Rode the bus all night?

Rode the bus all night and then I came to L.A.

Then what happened? Did you have to check in somewhere or was there someone there to meet you?

Well, they told me to just take a taxi to the boarding house, which was on the west side of L.A.

Do you remember what street it was on?

Think it was Alexander. Alexander something.

And it was on the west side of Los Angeles?

Yeah, west side of L.A., and then—

That was quite a ways away from the BIA, wasn’t it?

Uh-huh. I had to take my luggage over there. I had my schedule. It said the next day, or something, I’m supposed to report to the BIA.

Oh, so they’d already mailed you something in advance. Did they also mail you some money or give you anything to help you?

Oh, they gave me some money, expense money.

Did you have to buy your own bus ticket or did they mail you a bus ticket, too, do you remember?

I think they paid me for my bus ticket, too, if I remember correctly.

So you had some advance paperwork then that you could bring with you.

Yeah.

So you caught a taxi to the boarding house. Do you remember the name of the boarding house? Was it a hotel or a boarding house?

It’s a boarding house. I don’t know how many rooms in the house there. It’s like a big house. Then they have a lot of rooms in there.

That they rented it out to people.

Yeah, rented.

So you caught the taxi down to the boarding house, and then what did you do the next day?

I went down to the BIA office, and then I was given a paper saying to report to the office for job placement. Then they told me just to wait all day.

Oh, my gosh. At the office?

In the office, yeah. I just kind of sitting in the office all day. Maybe they give you a certain time to give you a break, then come back a certain time. So they just kind of wait around, if there’s a new job that might come up. So that’s how [unclear] office was at the time.

For how many days did you do this then?

Almost a month.

Oh, my gosh. But they knew that you had this carpentry experience, too, right?

Yes.

So you went to their BIA office and sat there every day in the office for almost a month. Then what happened?

Then they finally said, well, look like a job in south side of L.A., and they told me to go down there for an interview, so I went down there. Had to take the bus again. At that time I had to be on the bus because I don’t have a car, so I took the bus over there. They said to take this bus and take this street and get to that place. It’s called Baby Line Furniture. We go there and go to the office and ask for human resource officer or something, they told me. So I went over there, got an interview. Then the next day or something like that, I got a job.

What kind of job then did they offer you?

It was a furniture assembly line, where they make furniture. The assembly line—

The parts come by.

Yeah, all the parts are already made, so all you do is just put it together with, like, a gun, or some kind of glue it, too, and you just put it together. So that was—

That was something then, right? Better than sitting in the office for a month.

Yes, that’s right.

How long did you stay at that job then?

I would say about two years.

So that worked out for you then, right?

Uh-huh.

In the meantime, though, were you still living at the boarding house, or what was your living arrangements then?

Well, I just move out. When I got the job, I realized I had to move out because I’m no longer under that program.

Did you know you were going to have to do that, that’s the way it was going to work?

Yeah.

So all that time, though, that month that you were reporting to the BIA office, they were paying your rent then, right?

Uh-huh.

But as soon as you got this job and was on the payroll, then you were responsible for your own arrangements?

Yes.

Where did you go then?

I stayed in the same area. I found another place. I remember they had apartment nearby and I rented that place for a while, and I just go from there.

During this time then, this month or so that you were going to the BIA office and then when you started working at Baby Line, did you meet very many other Indian people on relocation?

Yes, I met about two—let’s see. There’s three other Indians that were working there.

That were working at Baby Line? Had they come out on relocation, too, do you know?

I think so, yeah, if I remember correctly. It looks like they came on the BIA program too.

So you stayed at Baby Line for two years or so. Looking back on it, was that a good job for you? Did you get a lot of extra training, too, or opportunities to learn other things?

I would say that’s probably a new experience for me because this furniture, the parts are already made and all you do is just assemble together. At least the most important was that at least I have a job, and that’s what I like about it.

It must have been a pretty good job because you stayed there for two years, right?

Uh-huh.

During the month that you were staying there, before you got this job, and then those two years after you started working there, what kinds of things did you do for fun? What did you go do?

I went down to the park. There’s a park down on—it was called Lafayette Park, and a lot of Indians would go down there. So I just went down there on my free time just to shoot around and play basketball with them or something, and got to know some other Indians. But I met them a few times here and there. But then at the same time, I was invited to this church and then I started coming and stayed here.

This church we’re at today, the First American Indian Church in Lincoln Heights?

It was already here.

So you were invited to come to church here. You came to church here and you met, obviously, more people and made more friends, is that right?

Yes, I met more people.

So you’ve been coming to this church for how many years, then?

Over forty years.

Over forty years at this church. So you worked at Baby Line for a couple of years, two years, two good years, and then where did you go to work?

This company, they make camper shell for mobile home, and I worked there, I don’t remember how long, maybe six months, and then they moved. They moved to Texas, so then I got laid off and then I found another job through my brother-in-law, or my cousin, down in Cypress doing the same thing, making camper. This one is called camper shell. They make camper and they make shells, and I worked there. I got the job through my cousins, so I stayed there for a little while.

So it sounds like once you finally found a job, you were able to continue finding other work as you needed or as the situation happened.

Yes.

Do you think that relocation was a good thing for you? And in what ways was it helpful?

I would say it really helped me because at least it helped me and I needed help myself to get a job. That’s always my desire was to realize that I need to be on my own someday and I realize I have to have a job, so this relocation really came in handy. I would say it helped me, helped me find a job and helped me to be on my own.

While you were out here then, all this time that you’ve been living out here, how often do you think you go back home to Klagetoh to visit?

At least once a year, for sure, but once in a while, maybe twice a year.

Do you still have a home there then, property?

My mom’s house is—

Is still there?

Mom’s still there and I would say that it’s still my home, it’s still my home, but if I want to live there now, I’d have to get a lot. They told me so. That’s something that I’d look into.

You’d have to go through the tribe, then, right, to have a permit or get some sort of arrangement for you to continue to stay there then, is that right?

Yeah.

Well, it sounds like you’ve been a very successful person. You’re married. Do you have any children?

No, we didn’t have any kids.

No children?

Just me and my wife.

Just the two of you. Did you meet her here in the church?

Yeah, we met here at the church.

Just a couple of questions here. You met some of the people that first thirty days when you were living in the boarding room, and then you went to the park and you met other Indians there and played basketball and socialized, and then you met some other Indians at your next job site. Did you know anybody then that shared their relocation experience with you? What kinds of things did you hear other people experiencing? Were they good things or people having problems? What, if anything, do you remember from your conversations?

I just heard that a lot of the people, student or—they just waste their money that they’re supposed to use for their job or for their training, and they didn’t do well on that.

Didn’t manage their money very well then.

Didn’t manage their money well and a lot of of them didn’t stay with the program. That’s what I heard, so—

Well, it’s hard to know how to manage something if you’ve never had it before, too, you know, how to budget and that kind of thing. You came out and had placement. You kept calling it a placement opportunity for a job. Were you ever offered any educational opportunities out here? Because you said you had thought about going to Trade-Tech at one time before you went to Haskell. Did you ever have any?

After that I went to Trade-Tech for a little while, but just part-time.

On your own?

On my own. I took printing, but then I wanted at least to do something else, but then I just took little classes for a while and then I realized that it was kind of hard for me. I guess printing, I realize it’s not my thing, plus my work schedule was kind of interfering. And then so I just stopped going over there.

That was something you did on your own then.

Yes.

That wasn’t anything that relocation put together for you?

No, no.

Did they ever offer you any additional training or vocational-tech opportunities?

No.

Nothing like that?

Since I already had that trade with me and then I just continue with that.

Right, because you were already skilled anyway when you came into the program, pretty much, at least in that trade. Just one more question, James. There were lots of other Indians here, either came through the relocation or else they were already here. Did you have very many friends that were other kinds of tribes from other parts of the country, or did most of your friends tend to be other Navajo or other people from Arizona, would you say?

Well, I met different tribes along the way as I went to their—a lot of them, I met them through they have that Indian Basketball League, so I just kind of went down there and I realized that other tribes were there. So then later on, I was able to meet some of them, not just the Navajo, but other tribe. I met them once or twice and I never seen them again, but I was able to meet other tribes besides Navajo. So that’s the neat thing about Haskell. Well, for me, I guess, when I was in Haskell there’s a lot of tribes over there, so I was able to be with other tribe, and some of them I never seen them before. And then when they were there, then I realized that there’s some other tribes there.

Sherman, too. There would have been a lot of California Indians there as well.

Yeah. At that time it was mostly California Indian. It’s mostly Southwest.

Tribes.

But now there’s more tribes there than before.

This is just the last question. If you had one thing to say about the relocation, your experience in relocation, and you wanted to leave an impression with somebody, what would you want them to know about relocation?

If they do a relocation today, I would encourage them, advise them to take part or get on the program.

You would advise them?

Yeah, I would advise them. But since there’s no relocation today, they would just have to get job on their own. That’s probably the main thing that we need to do nowadays, because since there’s no relocation, then they’re on their own now. That’s what I would say to—even right now I tell my nephew and nieces, you know, to get a job, even start from the bottom and—

Work your way up in something.

Work your way up. Now, if you find something, you may not like it, but at least get a job, and then as time goes, you might find another job. That’s what I would advise them. So mostly my nephew and nieces, I can easily talk to them and say that they need to get a job. Even today, I continue emphasizing to them.

The importance of jobs and those skills—

School.

—and school, and those skills that you need to find a job and keep a job. That’s an interesting thing because you attribute that, a large part, to your relocation experience then.

Uh-huh.

Because it found you your first job. But the other jobs you found yourself, right?

Uh-huh.

Is there anything else you think is important for people to know about relocation and your experience coming out here and making your way? Because you had to ride the bus every day; you had to get yourself around; you had to learn how to manage your money; you had to keep yourself well, take care of yourself because you had to work every day. Anything else you think that’s important for someone to know about relocation? Because you were how old? You would have been, what, twenty—

Twenty-five or twenty-six when I came up. So at that time I realized I need to be out on my own, get a job. And I’d like to say the same thing to the new generation today, that they need to find work on their own, go to school, trade school or whatever, military. That’s what I would focus for them, you know, just the same way that I went to relocation, they gave me a job. I got a job. From then on, I went on my own. They need to do something, young people today. That’s what I would say.

That’s good advice, John. I’m going to conclude it here now.

Okay.

I’m going to turn this machine off. [End of interview]