Interview of Bob Barker

1.1. Session 1 (February 10, 2011)

Collings

Here we are on February 10, 2011, Jane Collings interviewing Bob Barker in his home.

Collings

Perhaps we could just hear where and when you were born.

Barker

I was born in Darrington, Washington, which has been described to me as a little timber town, up in the timber in Washington. I was there about three or four days, I think. My father [Byron John Barker] was the foreman on the High Line through the state of Washington.

Collings

Oh, how interesting.

Barker

And my mother [Matilda "Tilly" Kent Tarleton Barker] and my father were living in a tent city, as were all of the other people involved, out in the timber. And I was about to arrive, so they took my mother into Darrington, and I don't know whether there wasn't a hospital there or what but I know that I was born in the doctor's home.

Collings

Oh, really.

Barker

And my mother stayed there for a couple of days, and then she was back out to the tent city. And my father was part Indian, and she said, "This is the perfect place for a brave to bring his papoose--"

Collings

Oh, wonderful.

Barker

"--is to a tent city." So we were there for some time, and then he went around the country on various jobs. He went to Seattle, and we were there for a while, and we went on various parts of the United States when I was a kid.

Collings

Yes, he was a lineman then.

Barker

Well, actually, he was not a lineman. That is, he wasn't climbing the poles. He had men who did that. And one night in Washington there was a problem on a tower, and my father, his men had all gone home, and he wanted to get it straightened out immediately. And there were hooks so they could climb, you know, and he didn't have his hooks. He had some, but he didn't have them there, and he put on some hooks that were too big for him, and he went up this tower and fell and injured his hip. And it bothered him for the rest of his life and eventually led to his death, according to the doctors. Nature just formed a hip joint, and he had a limp after that, and eventually it rubbed on his spine and caused his death when he was only forty-one years old.

Collings

Oh, it must have been so painful.

Barker

I was six when he died.

Collings

Yes. It must have been a very painful condition as well.

Barker

1929, a great year for Mom to be left with a six-year-old boy and as a widow. We were at my grandmother's home in Missouri, and Mother had a background in school teaching, and she tried to get a job as a teacher round Springfield so she could stay there with my grandmother. But she couldn't find a job. We were going into the Great Depression. And my father's brother lived in a little town called Mission, South Dakota, on the Rosebud Indian Reservation. And he helped my mother get a job teaching school up in Mission.

Collings

Oh, wonderful.

Barker

What an adventure that was. We went up there to this little town. It was in the early thirties, and they still had hitching rails, and cowboys still rode in wearing spurs and chaps, and tied their horses up. The town was two hundred people. I was there from the time I was in the second grade until I got out of the eighth grade

Collings

Wow.

Barker

And it was a wonderful place to grow up. It really was.

Collings

Did you have cousins or other relatives there?

Barker

No. I had two cousins. They lived in Gregory, but that was a long drive. And then I had cousins out in the Black Hills, and we used to go visit them on Christmas frequently. But not in the town itself, Mission. But I had lots of friends, lots of Indian boys. They were great athletes, splendid athletes.

Collings

Really.

Barker

I started playing basketball when I was in the second grade, and played on the Mission Midgets. We used to play basketball during the halftime of the high school games. The Mission High School had fine athletic teams because, in addition to being the only high school in Todd County, South Dakota, at that time, there was, just down the hill and across the creek, the river, and up the other hill, there was what was called Hare School.

Collings

Hare School.

Barker

H-a-r-e. He was a prominent--I believe he was an Episcopalian and had done a lot of fine work on the reservation, and they named this school the Hare School. And this school was for young Indian boys. They could come in and live there. They had this big farm, and they got their room and board, and then they worked on the farm and went to Mission to high school. They'd come in. They used to bring them in in a big open truck, it wasn't a bus, all of them standing in the back of the truck with the big rails up. I can remember them now, riding. And among them were splendid athletes. That high school had fine basketball teams and fine football teams, had good track teams. They had some white boys on the teams, but they were dominantly Indian, and my heroes were those Indian boys. I can remember to this day Billie Shields. He pole vaulted on the track team. He was the high scorer on the basketball team, and he was the best running back they had on the football team, and he was my hero. I used to follow him around.

Collings

Really. How did the white kids and the Indian kids get along?

Barker

Oh, we got along fine. Yes, we played together. I played on this Mission Midgets Team, and on that we had one other white boy. I didn't consider myself a white boy, because I was--

Collings

Well, I was going to ask you that, yes.

Barker

My father was a quarter Indian, so I was an eighth. But I was the only blue-eyed blonde Indian boy on the reservation. [laughter] But we had two white boys and three Indians on our Mission Midgets Team.

Collings

So were you accepted amongst the group because of your father's name or--

Barker

Oh, no. No, no. Our school was filled with Indians and whites, and there was absolutely no discrimination whatsoever.

Collings

But, I mean, you said you thought of yourself as an Indian boy. Yes.

Barker

I mean, we just accepted. They were our buddies. Sure.

Collings

So you said you sort of thought of yourself as--

Barker

Well, I was proud of my Indian blood and am still proud of my Indian blood.

Collings

Did your mom encourage you to learn about any of the traditions of your father's tribe?

Barker

No, not particularly, although while she was there, first she was a teacher, and then in a few years she became the principal of the high school, and then she went into politics.

Collings

Oh, really.

Barker

She ran for Todd County Superintendent of Schools and won, so she became the County Superintendent of Schools and wrote a history of South Dakota called Our State. And it was used in the sixth grade, and years later when I was hosting the Miss Universe and the Miss USA beauty pageants, frequently at the USA pageant Miss South Dakota would come up and say, "You know, I read your mom's book when I was in the sixth grade."

Collings

Oh, that's great. Oh, that's wonderful, yes.

Barker

I loved it.

Collings

Yes, because sixth grade is when you learn about your state, yes. So is that where your dad grew up?

Barker

No, he grew up--he lived as a kid on a--his father had a ranch in South Dakota, yes, but it wasn't in Mission. It was back further east. My mother, she went to high school in various cities. My grandfather was a minister.

Collings

Oh, really.

Barker

And he lived in various--not cities, but towns, in South Dakota, and Mom grew up in those towns. And then she went to Dakota Wesleyan, which is in Mitchell, South Dakota, and when she graduated--she studied biology. She wanted to be a doctor, but she didn't have the money to go to medical school, and she became a biology teacher at Miller--no, not Miller, at White River, South Dakota. I think it was while she was there, she met my father. At that time he was living in Winner, South Dakota, and they fell in love and were married, and then, as I told you, my dad went from job to job, and she went along, taking care of her papoose. [laughter]

Barker

So what were you thinking about doing, you know, once you were getting into middle school? You said that you left there when you were about eighth grade. Were you sort of thinking that this place was your universe--

Barker

Well, when I was a kid--

Barker

--or that there was a world out there, or what was your thinking?

Barker

When I was a kid in this little town, in Mission, there was no television in those days. Radio was just in its infancy, and we used to get together and listen to Joe Lewis fights and listen to the Army-Navy game. In those days that was a big game. And we were wrapped up in sports. We had played basketball, we played football we played baseball, and we ran track. Just kids. I wanted to be--basketball, there was no professional basketball at that time, and no professional football until later than that, I don't believe. But baseball was the big thing for professional athletes, and I wanted to pitch for the St. Louis Cardinals.

Collings

Oh, really.

Barker

That was my dream--

Collings

Oh, gosh.

Barker

--when I was up there. But I was a kid. As I got older, I came to terms with the fact that I didn't have the talent to pitch for the St. Louis Cardinals. I could pitch for the Midget baseball team in Mission, South Dakota, but that was like pitching in Little League, you know. It wasn't organized, but one of the fathers would pack us all into a car and away we'd go and play baseball all over that part of the county. But I wanted to pitch for the Cardinals, and incidentally, I had talked about that in interviews. I'd said that I'd always wanted to pitch for the Cardinals, and I was in St. Louis, I think it was to do the Miss USA or the Miss Universe pageant. I've forgotten which one it was, but it was a pageant in St. Louis, and Whitey Herzog was the manager of the St. Louis Cardinals at that time, and he had read one of these interviews, so he invited me out to the ballpark.

Collings

Oh, that was nice.

Barker

And he gave me a jacket, which I have upstairs right now. I wear it to this day. He gave me a bag that I used to carry to the studio till it was just in tatters. And he signed me to a contract, a St. Louis Cardinals contract, as a pitcher, and I get a dollar a year from the Cardinals so long as I do not pitch. Whitey said if he heard of me even warming up, the contract was null and void. [laughter]

Collings

So where did you guys head after eighth grade?

Barker

We went down--my mother remarried while she was up there, and my stepfather and my mother and I moved down to Springfield, Missouri, where my grandmother still lived.

Collings

So you were going into a completely different world, in a way.

Barker

Oh, yes, it was completely different. Well, Springfield, Missouri, at that time--well, when I was in high school, it was about sixty-five thousand, so probably when I went down--well, I was in the ninth grade there, so that was junior high in Springfield. So it was about sixty-five thousand people.

Collings

Which probably seemed like a big city.

Barker

Now, that was a big, fairly good-sized town, because in Mission we didn't even have a movie, you know.

Collings

Right.

Barker

You know, nothing. That's why I spent hours in the library. I read every kids' book in the Mission library, which was not a very big library. But it got me interested in reading, which is wonderful, and I still read a lot. But we made our own amusement. So now I'm in Springfield, and I went into the ninth grade there

Collings

Were you excited to be in this bigger environment?

Barker

Well, I had been there before as a kid. I started to school, actually, in Springfield, the first grade in Springfield, before my father died. In fact, he died during the summer after my first year in school. He died in July of '29. I was born in '23. But I played basketball on the junior high school team, and then I went to the high school, and I played basketball on the high school team. I was never built for football. I played football as a kid, but I was too skinny. And there was only one high school in the town at that time, and we had some good teams. And I couldn't play football there, but I did play basketball, and I got a scholarship to Drury University in Springfield, a basketball scholarship. And in high school I've always said I accomplished three things. I got a basketball scholarship to college as a result, I learned to type, and I met my wife-to-be.

Collings

Boy, you were busy.

Barker

Those are the three things I accomplished in high school. Dorothy Jo was going to Drury University after high school, and it was expensive for those days. It was a private school. There was another college there that if I went to school there in Springfield, I would have gone to, probably, but I wanted to be with Dorothy Jo, my wife-to-be, and I got the scholarship offer. I said, "I'll take it." That was it.

Barker

So I went to Drury, and, of course, I graduated in 1941, which was a rather eventful year for the United States and for the world. In December 7th of '41 I was at home studying, and Dorothy Jo called, and she said, "Did you know they've bombed Pearl Harbor?"

Barker

I said, "Where's Pearl Harbor?" [laughs]

Barker

She said, "I think it's in Hawaii," and indeed it is. And so very soon after that I volunteered for--well, it was during the second semester of my freshman year. I volunteered to become a naval aviation cadet.

Collings

So even though you hadn't known where Pearl Harbor was, you found out and got caught up in the--

Barker

Well, I would like to say that I had always wanted to fly or some of the stories that you would hear from former naval aviators. In my case, it was vanity. [laughter] I was looking at a magazine, and there was a full-page picture of a navy fighter plane and a young naval aviator--

Collings

Errol Flynn, perhaps.

Barker

--wearing his whites, which were the most flattering uniforms we had, with the high collar and the shoulder boards and gold buttons, and he was learning on the fighter plane, and he had a great tan, and he had his wings on, his wings of gold. And it said, "These wings can be yours."

Barker

And I thought, "Man, if I'm going to war, I want to go to war looking like that guy." [laughter] I hardly noticed the airplane. I looked at this tanned guy in that white uniform, and I thought, "That's for Barker." So I went down the next day to the post office and volunteered. But to become a naval aviator, you had to have two years of college, so the navy let me finish my sophomore year, and in June 9th, 1943, at the conclusion of my sophomore year, I went into the navy. The story of this is in my book, but to make a long story short, I eventually got my wings of gold, and I wanted to be a fighter pilot. I got my fighter plane, and I used to go out and learn on it, but no one ever took my picture. [laughs] But the important thing was that when I got my wings--as a cadet I couldn't be married, but when I got my wings, I became a naval officer, an ensign, and so I could be married, and I promptly came home and got Dorothy Jo, and we got married. Then she went with me down for operational training in DeLand, Florida.

Barker

And then I finished operational, and then I got the best duty I ever had in the navy. I was sent to what is now--I guess it's called Cape Canaveral. It was called Cape Kennedy for a while, but I think it's called Canaveral again, but I'm not sure. In any event, in those days it was Banana River Naval Air Station. Now, I was a fighter pilot. That's a single-seater, you know, the smaller planes, not a big bomber. First of all, I was assigned to a fighter affiliation, and I went home and I talked to Dorothy Jo, and I said, "I'm going to go into fighter affiliation."

Barker

She said, "What's that?"

Barker

I said, "I have no idea, but that's what I'm going to do."

Barker

So they sent me to this big base, and it was a Mariner base. A Mariner was a big four-engine seaplane type. It could land on water or land. It was a valuable plane to the navy, but it wasn't what I flew, and I was one of seven fighter pilots on the base, and what I did, what we did, we would go up, and these Mariners would fly out over the ocean, and we would make gunnery runs on them as if we were shooting them down, and they would fire at us with cameras to train their crews. And it was wonderful duty, because there I was, married to the girl I love. We had a little--it was in a tourist court. They used to call them tourist courts. They call them motels now, but they're little cabins. We had our little cabin. She could actually cook there some. And I'd go out to the base. We were seven fighter pilots, and that was all. That was our duty, and often we'd be sitting there. We played hearts. We'd play hearts, and if you had a good hand, they'd call, and they'd say, "They want a fighter pilot."

Barker

We'd say, "Your turn."

Barker

But if you had a good hand, "Oh, man, I got a good hand. Jim, will you go?" And somebody else would go fly it, because we loved to fly. That's why we were doing it.

Barker

So this went on, and then the captain of the base found out that we had never been to sea, and he said, "These seven pilots have not been to sea. We ought to get them out of here and get some boys in who deserve this kind of duty."

Collings

Oh, dear.

Barker

So that was it. We were out of there. I was sent to just outside of Detroit. I can't think of the name of the base right now, but I will. In any event, lo and behold, it was a fighter pilot pool, and the first thing I saw when I got there was Corsairs. Oh, they were beautiful airplanes, and they were as good a fighter plane--certainly along with the Hellcat, were the two best fighters the navy had, and they were among the best fighter planes in the world. But the Corsair with a gull wing, and it was fast, and I saw that, and I thought, "Man, when I go to sea, I'm going to be flying Corsairs." So I checked out on the Corsair, and we stayed there for about two months, three months, and my story is, well, I went up to Lake Michigan, and I checked out on the carrier, did my carrier landing so they knew I could do that.

Collings

Oh, jeez, yes.

Barker

And then I was awaiting my orders to join a seagoing squadron, and the enemy heard that I was coming out to the Pacific, and they surrendered.

Collings

Oh, yes.

Barker

They surrendered.

Collings

That's funny. I never heard that before.

Barker

You've heard the story of the atom bomb.

Collings

Oh, yes, yes, but that's just--

Barker

Well, that was important, too, probably. But in any event, they surrendered.

Collings

Were you afraid? Did you ever think about what it would be like to be sent into the front?

Barker

No. I was nineteen, twenty, twenty-one, and when you're nineteen, twenty, and twenty-one, nothing is going to happen to you. You may hear about something that happened to somebody else, but not to you. No, I was never frightened in an airplane. I had some near misses, but I--when we did our night flying, a few of the fellows were a little uncomfortable. I wasn't. I went out and flew it at night. I always felt perfectly safe, in a way. They moved us along at a pace that I knew that I knew how to fly. When I shot my carrier landings, I did so many field carrier landings--that is, done on the field.

Collings

Ground, like they mark out the land.

Barker

But when I went out to that carrier, I knew just exactly how to approach the thing.

Collings

Yes, that's how they say. The training kicks in, they say.

Barker

Training, and boy, the navy--we were the best trained fighter pilots probably in the world, because they didn't need us. See, the United States was winning the war. When I joined, you were supposed to be a cadet nine months, but I was a cadet for a year and a half because they didn't need us, so they'd add to the program. Before I even got my wings, I flew the SBD dive bomber, and that was a plane that was used in combat. That was the plane that really won the Battle of Midway, which was a turning point in the war in the Pacific. I had some time in the SBD, and then when I went into operational, I flew the FM-2, which was the famous F4F Wildcat. It was the first plane that was really effective of the ones that they had in the Pacific, and they put a bigger engine on it and a bigger tail, and they called it the FM-2. And then I checked out on the Corsair, and I had done field carrier landings until I was ready for a carrier, and I qualified on my carrier landing, and I got superior grades, I'm happy to say, and I was ready to go.

Barker

But when the war ended, I lost interest. Then they told me we could all go to the fleet for a year, or we could get out, and so I got out. Most of us--

Collings

Why did you lose interest when the war ended?

Barker

I lost interest in going out on a carrier in the Pacific and sitting there and going out on hops that were meaningless, you know. The war was over. What's a fighter pilot to do? So I got out of the navy, and I went back to school. I went back to Drury. While I was a cadet, my wife had graduated, so she taught high school in Springfield, and I finished my last two years at Drury. I'd had two years in college, but I wasn't sure what I wanted to do, and I went back to Drury, and I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. But I heard about the manager of a radio station who was crazy about airplanes. Now, I had never been in a radio station, but I thought, "That might be kind of fun, to work in a place like that, and this fellow is crazy about airplanes. I'll bet he'd like to have a former fighter pilot work for him."

Barker

So I put on my naval officer's uniform and my wings of gold, and I went down to the radio station, KTTS, and met G. Pearson Ward. He and I sat in his office and talked about airplanes for about a half an hour. I think if he'd been younger, he'd want to be a fighter pilot himself. But then he had me do a brief audition, and I had my first job, writing local news and doing a sportscast.

Collings

And that was nothing you'd ever thought about before.

Barker

No, no, no, but after I had been there for a short time at that station, I thought, "I'd like to do this for the rest of my life. I'd like to stay in radio." In small stations in those days you had a chance to do all sorts of things. I had a disc jockey program, and I did this and I did that. But one day I had a chance to do my first audience participation show I had ever done, where I was talking with people in an audience just like I did fifty years on national television. I did this show, and Dorothy Jo and I, we'd been talking about what--I knew I had to specialize in something if I were going to get into national radio. I couldn't stay--I could do all kinds of things at a local station, but I had to specialize in something. And so I did this audience participation show, and Dorothy Jo heard it. And when I came home, she said, "Barker, that's what you should do." She said, "You did that better than you've ever done anything else." She didn't say I was good. She just said I'd done it better than I'd ever done anything else.

Collings

So where did you get the skill, the background to sort of talk with people like that?

Barker

I just went out there and did it. I don't know.

Collings

I mean, in the army or in the--yes.

Barker

I had never done anything like that before in my life, nothing. I'd been on the radio, and I might have done an interview with somebody on the radio about some situation in town or maybe somebody in sports or something, but to go out into an audience, I had never done that.

Collings

Had you always felt kind of easy with people?

Barker

I guess. I hadn't thought about that, whether I felt easy with people or not. But I did this, and from that day forward Dorothy Jo and I set out to get me a national radio show. This was long before television. And eventually we did. Not a national radio--well, yes, when I first started doing Truth or Consequences, it was on national radio, too. But it was primarily a television show. They just used the audio from the television show on radio. But we got me a national show.

Collings

Yes. So what radio shows were you enjoying that you were listening to?

Barker

When I was working there at KTTS, what national shows?

Collings

Yes.

Barker

Well, [Art] Linkletter was working then. Linkletter was doing what was called GE [General Electric] House Party, and he was a master. And, of course, Ralph [Edwards] was working then. Ralph was doing Truth or Consequences, and Ralph was just great. Ralph did Truth or Consequences on radio, and unlike when I did it, where you could see, with Ralph he had to paint the picture, and he'd say, "All right, they got him with the pie, and the pie's running down his chin. Oh, listen to that audience." He was just a wonderful host. And I loved Truth or Consequences. Truth or Consequences, I believe it was in 1941, was the number one radio show in all of the United States. It was number one, and that was Ralph Edwards. Ralph--

Collings

Were you ever in a room with a bunch of people while they were all listening to the show? Did you ever have that experience?

Barker

No, no. No, I didn't. But I heard--we were a CBS station, and CBS used to send promotional material out to its affiliates, and they said there was a new show coming on the network called Winner Take All. It was a first production by the company, Goodson-Todman Productions, and I heard it. It was on my shift, and I heard it. Goodson, Mark Goodson, was a fine producer, and Bill Todman was fine, and it was very well done. And Bill, Bill Cullen, it was his first show as a host nationally. He came out of Pittsburgh. It was just a splendid show, and then I had got to know Bill years and years later, and I had the pleasure of doing The Price Is Right for Mark Goodson. But I owe it all to Ralph Edwards. It all started with Ralph for me on a national level.

Collings

Right. It was just that one fortuitous--

Barker

Well, when Dorothy Jo and I--when I finished college, we went down--we loved Florida when I was down there in the navy, so we went down on a vacation, and I auditioned at a Palm Beach radio station and got a job, and then the manager of the station got her job teaching at West Palm Beach High School. So we stayed there for a year. From the summer of 1949 to 1950, we stayed there. And then we knew that if I was ever going to do anything on a national level, we had to be out here or in New York, and we thought California would be more like--

Collings

More like Florida.

Barker

--Florida than New York, so we headed west. I didn't have an agent. I didn't have a job. I had no contacts of any kind. I was a ripe candidate to starve. And would you believe it, through a series of very fortunate circumstances, I had a radio show within three weeks.

Collings

Gosh.

Barker

And it was doing audience participation, and Dorothy Jo produced it, and it led to an association with the Southern California Edison Company, which services all of the area around the city with electricity. And she and I would go to their various Electric Living Centers, they called them, their auditoriums, and we'd do two shows a day, one in the morning and one in the afternoon. We'd go to Pomona and San Bernardino. We'd go to Oxnard and Ventura. We'd go out to the beach to Santa Monica and one of the beach cities. And we did that, and we opened a little advertising agency, too, because I had to get some sponsors. Edison paid most of the cost, but I needed some other sponsors, and we gradually started doing other work for them, and we had a little advertising agency. We had an office out here on the Sunset Strip.

Collings

What was the name of the agency?

Barker

The Barker Company. [laughs]

Collings

Where were you living when you first came out here?

Barker

We lived out here on Las Palmas, just south of Hollywood Boulevard. And then we moved out on Laurel, not Laurel Canyon but Laurel, just north of Sunset. Then we moved to a house that we bought in Encino, and then we moved here. But I was doing one of those radio shows for the Edison Company, and Ralph had sold Truth or Consequences as a daytime television show on NBC, and he was auditioning hosts in New York, and he was auditioning hosts out here, but he had not found the one he wanted. And thank the good Lord, he turned on his car radio and heard me doing my show, and he liked the way I worked.

Collings

What did he like about it?

Barker

He told me later, he said, "You sound like Jack Benny doing audience participation." [laughter] Which was flattering, because I was a great admirer of Benny. But I was out in the city doing something, and I came back to the office, and Dorothy Jo said, "Ralph Edwards called you."

Barker

I said, "The Ralph Edwards on television?"

Barker

And she said, "Well, I guess." She said, "It was Ralph Edwards Productions, and Mr. Edwards wants to speak."

Barker

I said, "Where's that number?"

Barker

So I called immediately and talked with Ralph, and he said, "I heard that radio show of yours," and he said, "I like the way you handle that show." And he said, "I'm bringing back Truth or Consequences, and I'm auditioning hosts, and I'd like to have a talk with you." He said, "Would it be convenient?" Well, convenient. "Would it be convenient for you to come in to my office?"

Barker

Well, I knew where his office was. He was up here at the corner of Hollywood Boulevard and Cherokee at that time, and that first apartment that we had was very near there. We used to walk up to a newsstand there and get magazines. So I knew exactly where it was, and I said, "I can come over there right now."

Barker

And he said, "That's not necessary." He said, "How about tomorrow or the next day?"

Barker

I said, "Tomorrow. I'll be there tomorrow--"

Collings

Yes, eight o'clock.

Barker

“--when you open." So I went over, and we had a long talk, and he said he liked my background. I'd done so many shows by that time, you know, all over southern California. I'd had shows in the rain where you don't have many people there. I'd had shows on beautiful days when you have standing room only. I'd had all sorts of things go wrong, and I'd learned how to do this and how to do that, and Ralph quizzed me pretty good. He said, "I like your background." And he said, "You know," he said, "I went to Berkeley, University of California at Berkeley." He said, "Our careers have been similar." He said, "You got your first job in college. I got my first job in college." And he said, "Now you're out here." And he said, "My first national show as a host was Truth or Consequences." He said, "It might be yours, too." But he said, "I want you to meet some more people."

Barker

So I went back to another meeting with him. At that time he was represented by MCA. Bobby Kennedy broke up that situation. They either had to go into production or they could keep an artist's representation, too, and, of course, they took the production, and so they're no longer an agency. But they were at that time, and they represented Ralph Edwards Productions. So there were three fellows there from MCA. They used to call them the men in the black suits because they all wore black suits, and they did. All three of them were there in black suits and white shirts, and well-attired, good-looking guys, and seemingly nice fellows. They were there, and I think there was one or two guys from NBC, and then some of Ralph's staff, so it was a big meeting. So we had a meeting, and apparently I passed inspection, because Ralph called me again. At the end of it, he'd say, "I'll be in touch." So after this meeting, he said, "I'll be in touch."

Barker

So he called me, and he said, "I want you to do an audition." He said, "It's just going to be audio. We're not going to do video, just audio. But," he said, "we're going to have an audience." And he said, "I'm going to give you some of the games, the stunts, the consequences that we've played, and I want you to do it just as if it were a show." He said, "Do you want one of our staff, an announcer or someone, to choose the contestants for you?"

Barker

I said, "No, I'll choose my own contestants." I always liked to choose my own contestants.

Collings

Why is that?

Barker

Well, because I knew what I wanted, and I knew what the consequences were going to be, and I would try to find the right person for that consequence.

Collings

And how could you tell?

Barker

Well, I might not have done it just this way on that first audition, but after I got the show, I still chose all my own contestants. I would be introduced. I'd go out, and I'd say a few things, and I'd say, "How many of you want to play Truth or Consequences?" And practically every--"Yeah, yeah." And I'd watch them carefully. I'd keep watching the audience to see who had that spark, who just had that energy that I was looking for. Now, maybe I was looking for an individual, a guy. I'd say, "You, this fellow over here in the gray suit. Stand up there, would you please?" And the moment he stood up, he was no longer a part of the audience. All eyes were on him, and I'd get a chance to see how the audience reacted to him. Some people are blessed. They stand up, and they say--"What's your name?"

Barker

"I'm Joe Jones. I'm from Arkansas." And they love him. Everybody loves him. Some people just have that, and I'd watch how the audience reacted to them, and I'd watch how they reacted once they were the focal point of the whole thing. Maybe I'm looking for a fellow that's going to do something kind of athletic. I'd have to choose that, you see. Maybe I'm looking for a couple. I'd look for the right couple. You have to have a natural instinct for it. But I don't care how good you are the first day, you're going to be better four, five, six years later. By the time I finished with Truth or Consequences, I was choosing contestants better than I've chosen in my life. You improve, just the way you play the violin, you get better and better and better.

Collings

So you're casting every show every time.

Barker

You're casting a show, and I cast for years. But for that audition I got my contestants up there, and I did the show, and Dorothy Jo, of course, was in the audience. No one knew who she was or anything, and she was laughing at everything I said. And we finished the audition, and I came off, and Ralph had a big smile. He said, "That went very well." He said, "If you don't become the host of Truth or Consequences," he said, "I have other shows coming up." He said, "We may have something else for you." But he said, "I'll be in touch."

Barker

Well, that's not what I wanted to hear, "If you don't do Truth or Consequences." I didn't want some other show in the future. I wanted Truth or Consequences. But then he said, "I'll be in touch." I heard that after every meeting. So he was. He got in touch, and he said, "You know," he said, "that audition went well, Bob." But he said, "We haven't seen you on television." So he said, "I'd like to have you come down to"--what's that theater on Vine Street up north of Hollywood Boulevard? Famous old theater [El Capitan Theater]. Ken Murray used to--I can't think of it for the moment, but in any event, that's where--at that time Tennessee Ernie Ford was taping his show, and a fellow named Joe Landis was the director. Joe Landis had done some shows for Ralph.

Barker

So I went up to this theater. What was that theater? It's a famous theater. I'm having a senior moment. But in any event, during a break in the rehearsal Joe had me come out on the stage, and he just stood and talked with me, and there were eleven people in the booth, I found out later, from MCA, from NBC, from Ralph's place, and they looked at me.

Barker

Okay, that's over with. They had their meeting, and on December 21, 1956, I was sitting in that office on Sunset Strip, the Barker Company.

Barker

Your advertising office, yes.

Barker

The phone rang. It was Ralph. Five minutes past noon. Five minutes past twelve, December 21, 1956. He said, "Bob, I've called to tell you that you're going to be the host of Truth or Consequences." That was the most important phone call I had ever had. That was the most important phone call I will ever have professionally. It led to all of the wonderful things that have happened in my life. The good Lord has blessed me, and I thank him for it.

Collings

So you're saying that show business is unpredictable enough that even with your talent, even with your abilities, that it could have gone a completely different direction.

Barker

Well, you put it in a very interesting way. Some people just say, "Well, Bob, if he hadn't called, somebody else would have called." Maybe, maybe not. I might have been doing shows in Oxnard for the Southern California Edison Company the rest of my life. But Ralph heard me, and he liked me and called me, and he auditioned me and went through these meetings and so on, and then he made me his host.

Collings

Now, you and he had a similar background in terms of your upbringing as well, I mean a rural background, some contact with the heartland.

Barker

Right.

Collings

Did that play into his thinking at all, or was that part of the attraction?

Barker

He thought that we had similar backgrounds, and then when he learned more about what I had done in the ways of shows and how many shows I had done, because he had done the same thing, he liked that, and he liked that Midwestern flavor, I think. There was another host at that time, and he was older than I, but he was not an older fellow. But Ralph and I were talking, and I said, "This fellow," I said, "he's good."

Barker

And he said, "Bob, you'll throw flowers on his grave." He said, "He doesn't have what you had," and I never forgot it. It gave me confidence, because I admired him so much, you know. When Dorothy Jo and I first came to Hollywood, we used to go down to CBS down there on Sunset and see Ralph do his show, do Truth or Consequences.

Collings

What did you admire?

Barker

Oh, he was great on This Is Your Life, but he was a completely different individual on Truth or Consequences. He was all over the place, and he would do something, and he'd turn to the camera, and he'd say, "Aren't we devils?" And that caught on. It was all over the country. You'd see "Aren't we devils?" Somebody at a party or something, you know. And he did his own warm-up, just like I did. He chose his own contestants, just like I did. We had all these things on common, and that's what he told me. When he asked me, he said, "Do you want someone to choose your contestants for you?" for my audition, and I said, "No, I'll choose my own." He said, "I loved that, because," he said, "I've always chosen my own contestants."

Barker

I just liked the way he was with people. He was funny, but he was exciting. He made that show exciting. He just had the whole audience on the edge of their seats. He really understood people. I've been to the Music Center to black-tie affairs with him, and he was charming with everyone at the table. And I've been at the Buckhorn Saloon in Truth or Consequences, New Mexico, and he had those cowboys right in the palm of his hand. He was a great entertainer. He was a splendid host. But he was also a fine producer, a fine producer, and he was an excellent writer. And to be a show packager, that is, put everything together, probably the most important quality of all, is salesmanship, and Ralph oozed salesmanship. He could sell these shows right and left. He was a great guy, and he was a gentleman. He was a gentleman under trying circumstances and a gentleman when things were going beautifully. I have never been around a man I admired any more.

Collings

Wow. Is he an extinct breed in the industry?

Barker

He's not only an extinct breed in the industry. Unfortunately, I think he's an extinct breed, period. I don't know many men in any industry that I really would even compare with him as just a quality human being. He was bright, very bright, very bright. He couldn't be all the other things he was if he weren't bright.

Collings

Yes, of course. Yes. So you said that you were also lucky because you got into TV when you got in, and it was such an exciting time to be in--

Barker

It was an exciting time. When I first started doing Truth or Consequences for Ralph, we did it down at the corner of Sunset and Vine, where there is now a big savings and loan, and that was it. That was NBC's--that was their big operation. And everything was live. What you did was what you got, and when an emergency occurred, you covered it. Of course, I'd had a lot of live radio, so that was good background for that. It was all black and white, and it was new. When I first started, there were still people gathered in front of windows, watching television in the furniture stores.

Collings

Right, like in a department store or something, yes.

Barker

A department store, right. And I saw so much of it happen. We were one of the first shows--we were the first show to tape on a regular schedule. There had been some shows that had taped for later dates, but not on a regular schedule. We were the first show to do that. We were one of the first shows in color. When we went into color, we moved from Sunset and Vine, and that was wonderful for us. That studio was excellent for audience participation. You could just reach out and put your arms around those people.

Collings

Was it good-sized or what?

Barker

It was nice and intimate. I like intimate studios. I liked to practically be standing in the front row, you know, because that was the way I worked. I made it a family affair. "We're here, and we're going to have fun, and you folks at home are going to have fun with us." I liked studios where I could work closely with the people. We had Studio D. It was a great studio. And then we could also do jokes out on the street, you see, with passersby with hidden cameras. And also, tourists could just wander in. They all wanted to get down there on Hollywood and Vine, and we were just a block away at Sunset and Vine, and they'd just walk in. They moved us, when we were in color, to Burbank. Now, today that's all built up. When we went out there, it was out in the middle of a field, literally. We couldn't do anything with people on the street, because there were no people on the street, and the only way people got there, if they weren't natives and knew exactly where it was, they came by bus or something, because a tourist didn't know where Burbank was, let alone where NBC was. But we survived and blossomed.

Collings

When you talk about the people coming in off the street, it almost sounds like a kind of a vaudeville show.

Barker

Sure. They'd be walking by. They'd say, "Look, they're doing Truth or Consequences there," and in they'd come. And, you know, they're out here from Nebraska or from New Jersey or wherever. "I want to see Truth or Consequences." But eventually we left NBC and went into syndication. Now, there's another first for Truth or Consequences and for Ralph. We were the first show to produce new product for syndication. There were other shows in syndication, but they were all reruns. We produced new shows, and I remember we started with New York, Chicago, Washington, D.C., Los Angeles, and Detroit, as I recall, those five markets. These were the early days of syndication, and we were no longer on in the daytime. We were on in what is now called prime access time, on at seven or seven-thirty. And the show was a hit. They loved it, particularly in Detroit. It just went through the roof in Detroit.

Collings

Why?

Barker

I don't know why Detroit any more than anyplace else, but they loved that show, and in those days they were literally taking tapes under their arms and going to stations to sell it, you see. I've forgotten now what order. It doesn't make any difference, but it just grew and grew and grew. I'd been doing Truth or Consequences on the network, and I had a base salary, you know, and that's what I made. Well, when I went into this syndication, I had a base salary, but I got more and more money with the addition of the stations, you see.

Collings

Oh, that's nice.

Barker

And I thought, "You can have your network." Very quickly I decided here is where the money is. We were a roaring success, and that went on for nine years. Then they overlapped. I started doing The Price Is Right, daytime, and Truth or Consequences, nighttime. If I tried to do that now, they'd have me on a gurney in a week, but it was fun then. I was young.

Collings

How did the audiences change over the years? Because that was a very potent period in American culture as well.

Barker

The audiences have changed just as society has changed.

Collings

Yes, exactly. Yes.

Barker

When I started doing Truth or Consequences, I would have men in the audience in three-piece suits and have ladies well turned out, and by the time I finished with Price Is Right, I had people in T-shirts and shorts and sandals, and their tongues pierced. [laughs] And a man in a suit was usually an army or navy officer. [laughter]

Collings

Well, did that change the way that you approached picking your contestants?

Barker

No, I rolled with it. I rolled with it. I survived. I had great fun with these kids on Price. I had great fun. We had children, little kids, on Truth or Consequences. I loved working with them. Oh, they--if a kid will talk, and you don't get laughs with him, you're in the wrong business. But you've got to have a kid who will talk. I'd have three or four kids--

Collings

Yes, sometimes they just clam up.

Barker

--and I'd say to the first one, I'd say, "Johnny, what is your favorite food?"

Barker

And he'd say, "I don't know." Boom, that's all of Johnny. I'd go to the next kid, because if you do that, he'll ruin all of them. They'll think that's a way to cop out. "I don't have to think. I'll just say I don't know." And then he'll ruin them all. But you get a kid who will talk, great.

Barker

"Who controls the money in your family, your mother or your father?"

Barker

If he said, "My father," you get a laugh. If he says, "My mother," you get a laugh, and you have a way to go, you see? But he's got to talk. But I used to choose my own children, too, out of the audience, and I'd get kids who'd talk.

Barker

I'll never forget one Consequence.

Collings

What?

Barker

We had a bunch of kids there who played Little League baseball, little kids, and we had planted in the audience two girls who played softball professionally. This girl could throw a softball like a fast ball pitcher in the major leagues. Oh, she could just burn it in there. And the other girl was her catcher, and they were just kids, too. I mean, they weren't as young as these boys, but the boys were within three or four years, probably, of them. So I picked the boys that I thought I could have the most fun with, and I said, "Now I want some girls," and I fooled around as if I didn't know who I was going to take, and then I chose the two girls, and now we get down on the stage. And I said, "Okay, guys." They were all in their baseball uniforms. I said, "Okay, guys, we're going to play some ball."

Barker

"Oh, boy, that's fun. That's great."

Barker

And I said, "Now, we're going to give you guys a chance to bat, and we're going to have these girls.” I said, "Let's see, I'll have you be the pitcher," as if I didn't know what I was doing, "and you be the catcher. Think you can catch?"

Barker

"Yes, I can catch."

Barker

So they get down there. She gets down to catch, and this girl gets across the stage, goes across the stage. She's going to pitch, and it's going to be softball. And this boy gets up to bat, and he's all set, and he's going to hit that softball at this girl. [laughs] I break up every time I think about that, this kid. He's standing there, and she throws that softball, and he doesn't even blink. [laughs] He looks up at me and he said, "That's a phony ball."

Collings

That's a phony ball.

Barker

That's a phony ball. I said, "That's not a phony ball." To the catcher, I said, "Give me that ball. Look at that. That's not a phony ball."

Barker

He said, "Then she's got a phony arm." [laughter] Oh, I tell you, the audience was screaming. Then we finally told the poor kid what was going on. Oh, it was funny.

Collings

Oh, boy.

Barker

You talk about having kids on shows, though, they're wonderful. They're wonderful.

Collings

Was there ever a day when you got up and you just said, "Oh, jeez, I'm not in the mood"?

Barker

To do the show? No. I've mentioned a couple of times that I've been blessed. I have. I was blessed in that I found something that I thoroughly enjoyed that I could do for a living, and I have nothing but sympathy for some fellow who goes to the office or to his job and dreads it and looks forward to Friday and looks forward to vacations and looks forward to retirement. Not in my case. I look forward to going to the studio. There were many, many days that show itself was the very highlight of the whole day. Well, most days. It would have to be something special to happen that I enjoyed more than the show. If I didn't, I could never have done it as long as I did, and I could never have done as many as I did. But I looked forward to the shows.

Barker

I was blessed that I was introduced to television on the national level by a man of such stature as Ralph [Edwards], a man for whom I had respect as a youngster--not a youngster, but a teenager, watching him on--or listening to him on radio, and then as I got to know him, I respected him even more, because all I knew of him, of course, when I had heard him on radio or saw him in the early days of television, was what I saw on stage. But when I got to know him and his family, Barbara, lovely lady, lovely lady, and three great kids, Christine, Laura, and Gary, and I saw him in all sorts of circumstances, I really realized how fortunate I was to have been introduced to what I was going to do the rest of my life by Ralph when he hired me.

Barker

I remember just before the first show he says, "Now, Bob," he said, "you're the star of Truth or Consequences now." He said, "You go out there, and you do that show the way you think Bob Barker should do it." He said, "Don't try to imitate me. Don't try to imitate anybody else. You're the man." The best possible advice you can give a young guy. Some people, I've heard them doing it, tell some kid how to comb his hair, how to tie his tie, how to walk, what to say, when to do it. Ralph said he hired me because he thought I can cut it, and he wasn't going to stand in the way, and he didn't. He didn't stand in the way. He actually gave me some of the best advice I ever had.

Barker

I'll tell you one thing I learned from Ralph. I'm often asked from young fellows who want to get into this type of show or are doing this type of show, what advice I have for them, particularly ones who are just getting into the business, not on a national level yet, working the locals. I tell them, "Whatever you do, do it every day as well as you can possibly do it, and I'll tell you why. You never know who's going to hear it or see it or hear about it."

Collings

True.

Barker

And then I tell them my story, that first show that Ralph heard, that wasn't an audition. I was just doing my show, and if I hadn't been at the top of my game, he would never have called me. And that's what I tell then young performers, young hosts. That's what they should do, and that's right, too.

Barker

I'll tell you another thing that I learned young. It was one of these Edison shows, and the audience was just hopeless. I just couldn't get anything out of them, and I just went through it as fast as I could and walked off, got off. And Dorothy Jo, I told you she produced them. She said, "Barker, if you ever do that again, I'm not going to work with you," and she was right, because if Ralph had heard that show, I wouldn't have been the host of Truth or Consequences. So those are two things that I remembered that I pass on when a kid asks me.

Collings

So what would you do if you had, you know, okay, let's say it's ten years into Truth or Consequences, and you've got a hopeless audience. What--

Barker

I never gave up on an audience. I had some audiences give up on me, but I never gave up on another audience. I did my best, and if you don't want to laugh with me, I'll just laugh myself.

Collings

So why did Truth or Consequences end, the show?

Barker

Well, we were doing it in syndication, and we had taped a whole season ahead that had been seen in only four markets, and so they wanted to save money on production. By this time I had started doing Price Is Right, too. And they wanted to save money on production, so they just shut down for a season. And during that season, Price Is Right went from a half-hour to a full hour, and so at the end of the year then they came back to me and wanted me to do Truth or Consequences again. I was represented then by a splendid agent. His name was Sol Leon, and he was from William Morris Agency, and he said, "Bob, I think it would be a mistake, now that you're doing this hour, to go do that again."

Barker

And also, two of the fellows with whom I had worked had died, and another one, who was my closest friend in the show, had retired, and they were going to have a whole new staff practically. And I thought, to go back into that and try to get it going again the way we had it, at the pace we were doing it, plus the fact that Sol said he thought I'd be overly exposed. I'm not sure he was right about that. A lot of people are doing two shows now, but I did two shows for a long time. For three years I did both shows, but not an hour. So I didn't do it, and they tried it with another host or two, and Ralph wasn't at all happy with it. He told me he didn't even go down to the tapings anymore. And so it kind of faded away. I don't see why they aren't selling it, though, on the game show network. The shows I did would play right now.

Collings

Right. Right. Well, do you think there's anything about the changes in audience expectations that made something like Price Is Right more of the moment than Truth or Consequences? I mean, was there a natural evolution?

Barker

No, I think Truth or Consequences would work right now--

Collings

Do you.

Barker

--if you had the right host and the right people putting it together.

Collings

How do you see something like Fear Factor, for example?

Barker

Fear Factor? I've never seen it. I read about it. I don't watch those shows. They're terrible.

Collings

Well, there's a very dark edge to them.

Barker

Oh, there certainly is. There's a cruelty to them.

Collings

Exactly.

Barker

With all of our consequences, we were never cruel. We were always going for laughs and having fun, but not at somebody's expense. And look, the shows that are most popular right now, the game shows, are Jeopardy, which is a question and answer game, just like the old days of radio, and Wheel of Fortune, which is the same game every night and is still popular. But you couldn't sell them today. If you took Wheel of Fortune in now, you couldn't sell it.

Collings

Why do you think that?

Barker

Well, it's not what they want. Now they want big money. They want big money games, and they want these Fear Factor things or whatever. Tasteless. Some of these things are tasteless, and they call them game shows.

Collings

So would you like to talk a little bit about your time with Miss Universe and Miss USA, the hosting that you did?

Barker

Sure. My voice is beginning to go. How long are we going to talk? [End of interview]

1.2. Session 2 (February 24, 2011)

Collings

Okay, here we are, Jane Collings interviewing Bob Barker in his home on February 24, 2011.

Collings

Just off tape, you said that you wanted to share a story about your mother [Matilda "Tilly" Kent Tarleton Barker].

Barker

Oh, yes. My mother, when I was just a baby, she thought it would be fun to go to an astrologer and find out what my future looked like. The astrologer told her that I would earn my living talking. Now, my grandfather, her father, was a minister, and so she thought, "Well, maybe he's going to be a minister." And then she thought it might be a lawyer. And radio was just in its infancy, and, of course, there was no television. It never occurred to her that I would be hosting audience participation shows. But that's what I ended up doing.

Collings

Did she ever remark upon that?

Barker

Oh, well, she made remarks about it occasionally to different people, about how she knew I was going to be a host on television because that's what an astrologer told her. But she was kidding, of course, because she had no idea what I would be doing.

Collings

Right. Right. Were you very verbal as a child? Were you a big talker?

Barker

No, not at all.

Collings

Interesting.

Barker

I was verbal, but not [sounds of hammering]--they're going to be doing that for a while, so do you want to move someplace else?

Collings

If that would be comfortable for you.

Barker

Well, is it going to bother you?

Collings

I think it's okay, because--

Barker

They're working on a--[recording interrupted]

Collings

Okay, go ahead. So I said, "Were you very verbal as a child?"

Barker

Well, as a child I was verbal. I mean by that, I talked as much as any of the kids, but I never did any acting. I took a course in dramatics at school, but I was never in a play. I never tried out for the plays that the high school did, and I probably would have been among the few to--I shouldn't say few. I probably would have been the last one to be considered to have the future that I eventually had.

Collings

That's very interesting.

Barker

And I never thought about doing that. As I told you, I simply went into this radio station and applied for a job, because I thought it might be fun to work in a radio station, and I thought I might have an in, in that the manager loved airplanes, and I'd been a fighter pilot in the navy. And then I discovered that I really enjoyed it, and then I did my first audience participation show, and that's what I did all my life.

Collings

I just wanted to ask you a couple of follow-up questions from last time.

Barker

All right.

Collings

You said that you got that very important call from Ralph Edwards.

Barker

From Ralph Edwards.

Collings

Not the first one, of course that was important, but the last one saying, "We've hired you."

Barker

That's right.

Collings

Do you remember what you did to celebrate that day? Do you remember anything special about what you and Dorothy [Jo] might have done?

Barker

That day, I don't remember celebrating that day. I received the call in the office there where Dorothy Jo and I had the Barker Company, the little advertising agency, and I think that--I just don't remember that we went out that night or anything like that to celebrate. It was going to change our lives. We realized that, and we talked about how wonderful it was. I remember before I started doing the show--no, after I had done my auditions, and I received the call where Ralph told me that I was to be the host of Truth or Consequences, that was December 21, 1956. A day or so after that I took some cleaning down to a little shop there where Dorothy Jo and I had some cleaning done, and I told the lady there about this, and she said, "Well, that's fine, Bob. Now it's all up to you." [laughs]

Barker

And I suddenly thought, "Gadzooks." But what she was saying is, the door has been opened for you, and take advantage of it. And it worked out.

Collings

Well, a lot of times you were saying that you had felt so blessed that you had gotten this opportunity.

Barker

Yes, I do feel blessed.

Collings

And I just wondered if religious faith was an important part of your life.

Barker

Religious faith, I read the Bible now, and I read religious books now, but I don't go to church. But I don't think that it's necessary to go to church. You can be religious on your own. I remember when I was a kid up there in South Dakota, I had a string of medals for not missing Sunday School.

Collings

Oh, really.

Barker

I went to Sunday School every Sunday, and eventually I got a medal for each--for different sections, you know, and I looked like General [Douglas] MacArthur. [laughs] But I try to--well, it's the most important line in the Bible, probably, is to do unto others as you would have others do unto you, and I try to live by that.

Collings

Okay. And I just wanted to ask you--

Barker

In Hollywood, of course, it's do unto others before they do unto you. [laughter]

Collings

Well, I've got a question that will sort of get to that. When did shows like Truth or Consequences go from being what you call audience participation shows to game shows, and do you think that that's a significant change, that terminology?

Barker

Well, I never heard the expression "game show." On radio they were always audience participation shows, and in the early days of television they were. The first game show was the show called Concentration, and it was strictly a game show. They were preselected contestants, and they played a game on a board, and the host, the first host, he was a well-known radio personality, too, but a television personality whose name I can't remember right now. But it was a game show, and he'd say, "Who are you? Where are you from? What number do you want?" and that was it. After that, then there was more of a tendency to call them game shows, and more game shows came along, and less fun with contestants and more playing a game. Although Truth or Consequences was a stunt show, the stunts really were set up to try to see the human reaction in this stunt and have fun with the way the person behaved in this stunt. They were people shows, pure people shows. Queen for a Day was the same sort of thing. I don't think that--well, Price Is Right is the nearest thing to that now that I know of. The way I did it, I tried to have fun with the people. Every show I ever did, I tried to have fun with people. That was my bag. Now Drew [Carey] has kept it on for three years, so he must be doing a good job. He plays the game, and the games are good, strong games, and they're very successful.

Collings

So there's kind of a distinction almost in the way that the host handles it then.

Barker

Right.

Collings

Okay. And you talked about the way that the audience changed over the years in terms of the way that they dressed.

Barker

Talked about what?

Collings

You talked about the way the audience has changed over the years in terms of the way they dress. You said that they used to be all dressed up, and then finally they were in flip-flops and--

Barker

Right.

Collings

Did they change in terms of the ways that they behaved in front of the camera? Like did they learn over the years something about how to act in front of a camera, do you think?

Barker

I don't think that the audiences changed so much really in their personalities as they did in the way they looked and, of course, the pierced ears, the pierced nose, the pierced tongues, and the tattoos, that changed in the audiences. But that has changed in the schools as well. If you see a group of kids going to school now, their trousers are hanging clear down on their legs, and they are bulky and big, and when I was in school, we certainly weren't dressing up, but we were dressing more tastefully, I think, than the kids do now. But the human beings--I mean, not human beings. Children are human beings. But the adults are the same.

Barker

I can remember, even when I first came to Hollywood, there were restaurants that you went to, and gentlemen would be there in ties and suits, and the ladies would be wearing nice dinner dresses. And today, I don't think there's a restaurant in Hollywood that you can't go in and see someone in a T-shirt, or most of them in a T-shirt.

Collings

Right. And so when you and Dorothy Jo came to Hollywood, how was life here really different from what you were used to? You'd come from the Midwest.

Barker

Well, we came from Florida, actually. I had been down there working in a radio station, and she had been teaching in the high school at Palm Beach. We were there from the summer of '49 till the summer of '50. We arrived in Los Angeles on August 13, 1950, and we came in on Los Feliz where it turns on--I believe it's Western there. We looked out over Los Angeles, and you could hardly see it with so much smog, and Dorothy Jo turned to me and she said, "Barker, what have you gotten me into?" [laughs] But it was a very short time before she loved Hollywood, and she loved it till the last day of her life. She would almost have to. It was so good to us. It really was. It is. It's still good to me.

Barker

That's one of the things I think about when I say that I'm blessed. As I've told you, I had every reason to starve, no job, no contacts, no wage, no nothing. Had a show within three weeks. Dorothy Jo produced it, and we worked together until Ralph called, and then I had a national show, and things just got better and better. So we made the right decision when we headed west. Horace Greeley was right.

Collings

Right. What about the kinds of people that you met and socialized with? Were there any surprises that were, you know, something different from what you were used to?

Barker

No. The people that I met were, for the most part, people in some way associated with radio or television. One of the first people I met was a young Scot. I can't even remember his name at the moment, but over here on Sunset there used to be a station that was the first, I think, of the FM stations, and this FM station had dreams--Werthy Merkerson, that was the Scot, Werthy Merkerson. This FM station had visions of setting up a network of FM stations all over California, and Werthy Merkerson was the sales manager. So I thought I would try to go in and get a job as a salesman, and then sell a show that I could host.

Collings

Good idea.

Barker

It worked out, but it worked out in a circular way. Werthy said--we talked for a bit, and he said--he soon realized that I had never sold anything, you know. But he said, "I'll tell you what." He said, "I'm trying to sell a radio show to a grocery market out in the San Fernando Valley." He said, "You go out there with me, and we'll sell that show, and you can host it, if we sell that show." So we went out, and we gave it a shot, but we struck out. And we were going home, and Werthy, in addition to being the sales manager of this station, also managed an apartment house, and he needed some appliances for his apartment house. And he said, "I want to stop out here. Do you mind?"

Barker

I says, "No, no, fine."

Barker

So we stopped at an appliance dealer whose name was Roy Rick, and he was quite a character. I went in, and Werthy talked with him, and I was there and participated in the conversation, and Werthy selected his appliances. That was the basic idea of us being there. And then this Roy Rick turned to me, and he said, "You know, I like the cut of your jib." We had said that I was out there trying to get started in radio. He said, "If you will come up with a radio show," he said, "I can get Hotpoint appliances," and I've forgotten the television company. They had a circular screen. It was an idea that didn't work.

Collings

Phillips, was it?

Barker

A circular television screen, and I can't remember though the name of it now. But in any event, he said they'll split the costs, and he said, "I can get the Department of Water and Power Auditorium on Lankershim." And he said, "If you can come up with a show that will bring women from the Valley in, and give me a chance to sell electric appliances there in the Department of Water Auditorium for Hotpoint and this television company," he said, "we got something."

Barker

So I went home, and Dorothy Jo and I sat down, and we put together some ideas, things that we had done before that women would have fun doing. And I went back, and Roy said, "I like that." So he went to Hotpoint and he went to the television company, and he got the money for this thing and to pay me, and the Department of Water and Power was glad to do it, because the whole idea was that this home economist with the Hotpoint--I mean, for the [Department of] Water and Power, would do a cooking show, and then we would do our radio show and give away prizes. Or she'd do a freezer demonstration. Freezers were really becoming a big thing then. Or a washer and dryer demonstration, whatever.

Barker

So we did that for thirteen weeks, and we really were successful, and word spread throughout the appliance world here in the Los Angeles area. And people came out there from all companies, Westinghouse, General Electric. You name one, they were all out there scouting this, you see. And as a matter of fact, I got my first gig as a television host as a result of that. A fellow named Harold Clapper came out there. He was the sales manager for Westinghouse, and they had a local television show called Your Big Moment, and they wanted to make a change, and he said, "I'd like to have you host that." So I did. That was the first hosting job I had on television. And the first thing I ever did on television was commercials for Bekins Sales Department, Furniture Division. And the fellow who had that came out, and he hired me to do commercials for him. So it was a productive show in that way.

Barker

But beyond that, Southern California Edison came out, and they saw this show, and they had me come in for a meeting, and they said, "Now, you're doing one show a week out there for the Department of Water and Power. How would you like to do five shows a week for the Southern California Edison Company?"

Barker

And I said, "Man, I'd like that." So we did thirteen weeks out there, and I left that show, and we took our own show, Dorothy Jo and I, out on the road for Edison. By that I mean we'd do two a day, and we would go to, say, Pomona and San Bernardino, or Oxnard and Ventura, or Santa Monica and someplace out there on the beach. And we'd do two a day, one in the morning and one in the afternoon, and it would be on, for the most part, on radio stations in that area. And then we went further and further away. We went as far north as Lancaster. And they decided to put it all, all the shows, on CBS locally here in Hollywood, and that's what we did, and we did those up until the time Ralph [Edwards] called, and we continued doing them for a while. Then we eventually stopped, and I just did Truth or Consequences.

Collings

So this was to get people away from gas power and to use electric power.

Barker

That's right. They wanted to sell electricity, anything electrical, vacuum sweepers, you name it. Southern California Edison was selling electricity.

Collings

That was a private company, right, Southern California Edison?

Barker

Southern California Edison is a private company that services everything outside the city.

Collings

Right, and the Department of Water and Power is--

Barker

Is the city.

Collings

--is the city. So what was the motivation of Department of Water and Power to get people to start using--

Barker

Sell electricity.

Collings

They wanted to sell electricity as well.

Barker

Sure. Yes. Sell electric appliances.

Collings

Right. And was it a hard sell, or were people very naturally interested?

Barker

No, it was not at all a hard sell. They did the demonstration, and Roy would get up there and say, "I'm Roy Rick, and I hope you'll love these appliances as much as I do. Come on down and buy them," or something like that. But not a hard sell, no.

Collings

And when you were in the early days of TV, you know, you spoke about doing the live show, and the audience, people coming in from the street to join the audience and so forth. Did you have a sense that TV was something that was really going to be monumental in this country?

Barker

Oh, there was absolutely no doubt that television was the greatest development of years, for years. As a matter of fact, there was concern that it would completely destroy movies. Everybody would stay home and watch their television.

Collings

Well, that's sort of happened.

Barker

Well, hardly. But it was a very exciting time to be alive, and particularly if you were in the business as I was. I was a part of television in its infancy. We started in black and white, and everything live. Then we were one of the first to go into color. As it developed, when I started doing the beauty pageants, I did the Miss Universe and the Miss USA pageants. Miss U[S]A, the winner represented the United States in the Miss Universe pageant. And we did them all over the world. We were a part of all of this television that is--it began in Mexico and in Central America, and we had interesting times then, too, because we only carried our most important personnel with us, and then we would bring local people in for many of the jobs.

Collings

You're talking about production staff.

Barker

You had a language barrier, and let's face it, they weren't Hollywood caliber, many of them. I remember one time we did the Miss Universe pageant. Did I tell you the story of my tuxedo in Acapulco?

Collings

No.

Barker

Well, we were doing the Miss Universe pageant from Acapulco, Mexico, and there were some people there from Hollywood with us, of course, but there were a lot of Mexicans working on the show. So I went to one of them, I've forgotten who it was, but it was someone there from Acapulco who was one of the executives, and I asked him, I said, because there were some young ladies working, and I said, "Which one of them do you suppose speaks English best?"

Barker

He pointed one out for me, and he said, "She speaks it very well."

Barker

I said, "She could do something for me."

Barker

"Oh, yes, absolutely."

Barker

So I went over and sat down with her, and she seemed to speak English quite well. I said, "I'll tell you what I want you to do." I said, "I have a tuxedo that I'll be wearing on the pageant." And I said, "It has hanger marks on the legs. I'd like to have those ironed out." And I said, "I'd like to have the jacket just ironed, but don't touch the velvet on the lapels, and don't clean it. Just touch it up." And I said, "Now, do you understand what I said?"

Barker

And she said, "Yes."

Barker

And I said, "You tell me now. What are you going to do with the tuxedo?"

Barker

She said, "I'm going to take it out and have it washed."

Barker

I said, "No, you're not. You're not going to touch it." [laughs] I said, "I'm going to wear it just the way it is."

Collings

Washed in some good hot water, just for good measure.

Barker

That's typical of some of the things that happened. We were in Athens, Greece, and we were doing the show there on the Atticus Theater, on the theater there that Socrates had watched performances there. We were on this stage. Now, when you're doing a television show of the scope of a Miss Universe, you have marks, little red, white, blue, or green, yellow, black, that represent places for different--like the evening gown competition, the swimsuit competition, the interviews, and so on. And by the time you're ready to go on the air, the stage is literally covered with these marks, and they're just little pieces of tape, but they mean a great deal to the stage managers and to the host, and to anyone who has to be on the right mark at the right time.

Barker

Well, they had all those out there on the stage, and it was all ready, and we broke after the last rehearsal, and the last rehearsal was only hours before the show. And so in their eagerness to have everything just right, some of the Greeks who were working for us got out there and took up all the marks so the stage would be nice and clean, clear. And our people were just working furiously, because this was live. They were working furiously to get marks back down before we had to start the production. That's the sort of thing that goes wrong.

Collings

So how did the pageants change over the years that you were there? I mean, you were with the pageant for, well, for twenty years.

Barker

Twenty years, yes. Oh, it didn't change a great deal. Some pageants have a talent contest. We never did that. The producers, they realized this is a show for pretty women, and that's what we concentrated on. We had a swimsuit competition, and we had an evening gown competition, and they paraded in their costumes at the very beginning.

Collings

Their national costumes, yes.

Barker

A young lady from Ireland would be in something Irish, and the young lady from Greece would be something Greek. And then we had an interview in the final stages of it, of the pageant. We would have an interview, and then the judges would make their decision, and that was it. One time, speaking of interviews, I had a girl from Israel. This pageant, as I recall, was in--I can't remember where. It could have been Hong--no, it wasn't Hong Kong. I can't remember exactly where it was, but we had all the nations there, and, of course, we had interpreters, because some of the contestants didn't speak English. We always had French, we always had Spanish, and frequently we would have to bring in someone for some young lady. Well, this contestant from Israel, she had spoken English well enough that we had no one there who spoke Hebrew. So we go to the end of the show, and now it's live, and now she becomes one of the semifinalists, so I have to interview her.

Barker

So I step over and I said, "Now, Miss Israel, I'm going to have a little chat with you."

Barker

And she turned to someone who was there, they have different people who spoke some Hebrew, and she said, "I want an interpreter." And we had no one who spoke Hebrew. This person that had just been working with her didn't really speak Hebrew.

Barker

And so I did the only thing I could do. I stepped off the stage and out to the audience, and I said, "Is there anyone here who speaks Hebrew?"

Collings

Oh, what a good idea, yes.

Barker

And fortunately, there was. I said, "Would you come down here, please?" And she came down, and she spoke Hebrew, and we went right on. [laughs]

Collings

So your audience participation training--

Barker

It became audience participation of the highest order, right.

Collings

So what was the best thing about working those pageants?

Barker

The money.

Collings

Really. Are you serious?

Barker

[laughs] People ask me, "What do you miss most about The Price Is Right, now that you've retired?"

Barker

I say, "The money." I always get a laugh. It works. But I enjoyed the traveling.

Collings

Yes, I'll bet.

Barker

I did, very much. I really--and had a lot of interesting experiences. Most of the people from the United States who traveled with the show were from New York, and I only saw them twice a year, and it was always fun to see them, you know. I had a dear friend who hired me to do it, as a matter of fact. His name is John Crist, and he was the head of the television department for the Leo Burnett Agency, Advertising Agency here in California. The company is in Chicago, the main headquarters, but he was here in California. And for years--what is it, Colgate? One of their clients bought the entire pageant. Didn't have participating sponsorships. And John hired me to host it, and he was always there, and he was a personal friend. He and his wife and Dorothy Jo and I used to have dinner together, and they used to come to our home. I always enjoyed working with John, and I enjoyed working with some of the other fellows, too. It was a thoroughly enjoyable experience.

Barker

The only reason I stopped was I didn't want to continue because I became so involved in the animal rights movement, and I learned the horrors of fur production, that I couldn't participate as long as they were giving away a fur, and they had a deal where they were making quite a bit of money, I think, out of presenting the fur, and so they didn't give it up, and so I left the show. But I enjoyed it.

Collings

How did the girls change over that twenty-year period, I mean, in terms of what they wanted from the show, how they acted?

Barker

Pretty much they remained the same. I think young ladies of that age probably are very much the same year in and year out. Well, look, women of any age are, and men of any age are. You know, we don't change as a group, inside. We may have our hair cut a lot differently or we may be dressed differently, but I think we behaved pretty much as people always did. Right now I think society is about the lowest level that I have known in my lifetime.

Collings

In what sense?

Barker

Well, they're crude. Television is just--a lot of it is offensive, and people individually, so many of them, are so crude, and it's rare that you're with people where there isn't someone who's quite less than a lady or a gentleman, it seems to me. But on the other hand, that's a sure sign of getting old, I understand, that you always think things were better in the old days.

Barker

But I had really interesting experiences. I was in Puerto Rico for both of the pageants. We went down in July, I think it was, for Miss USA, and then we went down in August or September for Miss Universe. And when we went down there, I've forgotten what year it was, but there was a strong feeling of anti-Americanism there, and we were at a hotel which was a few miles away from San Juan. It was just out in the middle of nowhere, but there was a beautiful golf course there and beautiful pools and all that sort of thing, and a lovely hotel. And we rehearsed there over a period of three or four days, and all the time we were there, there were people demonstrating in front of the hotel, "Yankees go home. Gringos, go home," and they were unfriendly. And so we started the show, and we were on the air, and I was on the stage actually doing something, whatever I was doing. There was a very loud explosion, and the stage just sort of shook.

Barker

So we went into a commercial, and the producer came out to me, and he said, "Bob, don't be disturbed." He said, "That was a refrigerator blew up in the kitchen." [laughs] And just then, [imitates sound] haroom, there goes another one.

Barker

I said, "Charlie," his name was Charlie Andrews. I said, "Charlie, we're going to have to eat out. There goes the refrigerator." I knew very well it was a bomb. And the bomb had been placed as near as they could to the truck. When you're in remotes like that, the director and some of the technicians are in a truck outside the building, and all of the very important technical things are in this truck. And they were trying to knock that truck out, and they set off these bombs, and they set off one upstairs and blew furniture fifty yards maybe from--maybe not that much, but twenty or thirty yards from the hotel, off of balconies up there. They could have killed people who were working at the hotel, you know, natives of Puerto Rico. But not one person was injured.

Collings

That's good.

Barker

But this happened. Now we go home, and we're going back in August or September or whenever it was--

Collings

Did you have second thoughts about that?

Barker

--right--to do the Miss universe pageant.

Collings

Were you sort of thinking about whether you wanted to go back?

Barker

Well, there was conversation, absolutely, and Dorothy Jo didn't want me to go, and several of the fellows who were involved, their wives didn't want them to go, but they assured us it would be safe. So when we go back, I landed in San Juan, and I was by myself. For some reason, I was in a smaller plane. They had brought me from someplace for this thing. And we landed. No, no, no, I was in a big plane then.

Barker

But that night--it was dark now--they wanted to take me on out, so I could rehearse the next day, to the hotel. There was a field out there, and that's where I was in a smaller plane with this pilot. We go out, and I looked down, and there were spotlights all around this hotel, and they were even throwing spotlights on us up there in this airplane. We get down on the ground, and it was like a World War II movie. They had guards out at the gate, clear removed from the hotel, out on the property of the hotel, and I had to stand there and identify myself, and they had to call in to the hotel and so on. And then we went into the hotel itself, and I could not even go up and unpack or anything until I was photographed and they hung an identification card on me, and you had to wear it all the time you were there, every moment. If you were ever without it, somebody would check you out. I was never without it, but I know that's what they were going to do. And that's the way it went, and there was no one else in the hotel. Only the people who were involved with the pageant were in the hotel, no guests, nothing.

Collings

Oh, god.

Barker

They took over the whole hotel, and it was a big hotel. And we were there about three or four days, and that was interesting.

Collings

I'll bet.

Barker

That was interesting.

Collings

What was the tone of the pageant? I mean, did it sort of go off as well as--

Barker

Oh, the pageant was very successful. They carefully allowed the audience to come in. You practically had to--it would be like the thing at the airport now where they're photographing you. But that was one of the more interesting things.

Barker

And I did Australia one time, and the little city of Perth. It was so clean and beautiful that it was just like a movie set, Perth. Perth is a lovely little place. But at the conclusion of the pageant, I had just put the crown on Miss Universe and stepped back, and they were applauding, and the stage, right there, collapsed--

Collings

Oh, my gosh.

Barker

--where she was. I was right on the edge. I had just stepped back, and the stage collapsed. She went down, and the first runner-up went down, and I think three or four other girls. And I thought, "Oh, they're going to break their legs and who knows--terrible." And yet not one of them was hurt, but Miss Universe was there, and she was reaching up for help to get out of there, and I reached down and helped her and pulled her out of there. And the picture of her, it was in every paper in the world. It was international, a picture of her reaching up, and I was cut out.

Collings

Oh, no.

Barker

[laughs] It's the story of my life. She's reaching up like this, and there she is, Miss Universe trying to escape, but Bob Barker, who was right there at her fingertips, cut out. [laughs]

Collings

Was that live?

Barker

Yes, it was live.

Collings

Oh, gosh.

Barker

They were all live, sure. The crowd was screaming.

Collings

Now, you began to have issues with the use of fur in the pageant, and, you know, society-wide, people were starting to think about those things.

Barker

That's right.

Collings

What about among your circle of acquaintances, friends, were there people who were changing their minds as well?

Barker

Oh, I don't know. Of the people I was associated with then, I was about the only animal rights activist who was a social friend. But as I got into the movement, then I formed friendships with many of them. See, we had been giving away fur coats for years, but I hadn't objected, because I didn't learn about fur, the cruelty to animals in the production of fur. And when I did, I asked them to stop giving away fur coats, and we reached an agreement. This was 1987. We reached an agreement that they would stop giving away fur in 1988, but in 1987 they had already made commitments. And so I went to Albuquerque, New Mexico. That's where we were going to do Miss USA.

Barker

I went to the first rehearsal, and to my horror, not only were they going to give away a fur coat, they were going to have the swimsuit contestants make their entries wearing a fur coat over their swimsuits, slip out of the coat, and model for the judges. So I went to the producers, and I said, "I can't do this." I said, "I can't be on this stage surrounded with these women in fur coats when I've gone around the country speaking out against fur."

Barker

So he understood where I was coming from, and I certainly understood his problem, because he said he had contracts for these furs. He had hundreds of thousand dollars worth of fur there, and we talked about it for two, three days. And the best thing that ever happened to the anti-fur campaign was that it leaked to the press, and as we carried on our conversations over a two- or three-day period, it was sweeping the country. It was on television, national television. It was on the front page of newspapers. It was on radio, talking about this television host who may give up his job rather than participate with fur coats on the stage, and pointing out that he was doing it because of the cruelty to fur. It was wonderful. We had never dreamed up anything that worked as well as that.

Barker

Finally he came around, and he said all right, they wouldn't have the fur on the stage, but they would give away a fur coat. But I had expected that. I thought it was the last time. So we did the show. Then the next year it came time to give up the prize, and they decided they wouldn't do it.

Collings

They weren't going to do it.

Barker

They changed their minds, and I said, "Well, I'm not going to do the show."

Barker

And the producer came over here and sat right where you're sitting and talked with me. "Come on, Bob, you don't have to do the plug, and it's just a few seconds."

Barker

I said, "I can't do it." I said, "I work with people in the anti-fur movement that they would just be shocked. I'd be a complete hypocrite." So that's when I left.

Collings

Yes. Are they still using fur? Because it seems that the--

Barker

I don't know whether they are now or not.

Collings

Yes, I'm trying to think, because I saw one recently.

Barker

I don't know. I know that they used to give away fur on every television show, but we took it off Price [Is Right]. I asked them to stop, and they did, and gradually all of them stopped.

Collings

Right. Yes.

Barker

When I see someone now, and I think most people, when they see someone in a full-length fur coat, they're almost shocked.

Collings

Right. Right. Now it's become--

Barker

Fur isn't chic anymore.

Collings

No, no.

Barker

It's not what it once was, and you see some--without mentioning names, invariably, it's some woman, in movies or television or something, who is all wrapped up in fur, looking, she thinks, as if she's just lovely, and usually it's a woman that you have thought of as not being real bright anyway.

Collings

I mean, you would have been in a position to know to have observed how that change might have occurred among people.

Barker

Absolutely. I watched that.

Collings

You knew people who wore fur coats--

Barker

I did.

Collings

--or had the opportunity. Did you notice them changing their minds at all?

Barker

Dorothy Jo led the way. Without ever saying anything about it, she was one of the first. She had a fur stole. She stopped wearing it, and she stopped wearing leather. She had some leather thing. And she didn't nag me. I suddenly realized, "Barker, what are you doing?" And I had about three leather jackets that I stopped wearing, I gave away, and I had a nice coat with a fur collar type thing, and I gave that away. It was not fur, it was sheepskin. But I saw it happen. It just went downhill, downhill, and now even in Canada, I read that there's no one in Canada who is really a professional trapper. There are some men who are trapping as a hobby, but they can't make a living trapping.

Collings

Oh, really.

Barker

I love it.

Collings

Yes, that's very interesting.

Barker

I love it.

Collings

Yes. And how did Dorothy Jo become involved in the animal rights movement?

Barker

She never was involved. She wasn't. She used to live that way. She became a vegetarian years before I did. She just lived that way, and she didn't--it wasn't organized. It wasn't--

Collings

So she just had a kind of a sensibility about it, which seems like it kind of--

Barker

Very definitely, a sensibility about the whole thing. And then she died, you see, in 1981, so animal rights movement was just getting off the ground. She might have participated, had she lived longer, but she didn't. But she certainly opened the door for me.

Collings

Right. Right, and so she had become a vegetarian as part of that.

Barker

She was a vegetarian, and I did it gradually. I gave up meat, red meat, and then I gave up fowl, and then I gave up all dairy products.

Collings

Oh, really.

Barker

And fish, I gave up fish.

Collings

Was the dairy product a dietary decision, or was it part of your philosophy?

Barker

None of it was a dietary decision. It was all just out of concern for animals. I gave up fish, too. But I am remarkably healthy, for my age, particularly, and I think that becoming a vegetarian--as soon as I did--I did it out of concern for animals, but I immediately could see the difference and why some people do it for health reasons. I had more energy, and I felt better, and you can control your weight better. I don't think that I would have been able to work until I was eighty-three years old, doing the type of thing I did, because I was all over the stage, you know, and it was an hour's show, and you had to build that excitement that we wanted and all this sort of thing. You couldn't do that at eighty-three if you hadn't taken pretty good care of yourself, and I think being a vegetarian was a big step in the right direction.

Collings

When did you start becoming concerned about spaying and neutering? Because that was always the end of your show.

Barker

Right. I learned through experience and working in the animal rights movement that one of our most tragic problems, so far as animals are concerned, is overpopulation. There are just too many cats and dogs born for them all to have homes. There are individuals and groups all over the country that devote their time, their energy, and their money to trying to find homes for these dogs, and they're doomed to disappointment, because the homes don't exist. There aren't enough homes for all the cats and dogs being born, and the only solution and the obvious solution is spay and neuter. There are people who are so misled, they say, "Well, we'll adopt our way out of this." You can't adopt your way out of it, because there aren't enough homes. You have to spay or neuter your pets, and to try to encourage that, I started years go ending the show saying, "Help control the pet population. Have your pet spayed or neutered."

Collings

But this was well before you got involved in animal rights, though.

Barker

No.

Collings

Oh, it wasn't.

Barker

No, I was involved in animal rights by that time.

Collings

Oh, at that point, yes.

Barker

Yes. It was early on. It was early on. And I got mail from all over the country about that. "Go for it, Bob. That's great, Bob. You're making a difference, Bob." And we have made a big difference. I don't say I did it, but I participated. We have made a difference, and now I have my foundation, and it is really making a difference all over the country. There are parts of the country where dogs are really not--there's a noticeable difference in the problem. Cats, I don't think we'll ever be able to control cats until they start licensing them, but we're making real good strides with the dogs.

Collings

So tell me about the work of your foundation.

Barker

Well, it's the DJ&T Foundation. It is named in memory of my wife, Dorothy Jo, and my mother, whose name was Matilda, but everyone called her Tilly. And we work through local organizations, and the way we do it is this. We have a website, and people now--I've been doing it since 1994, so the word has spread. They know about it all over the country. But we give two types of grants. We have what we call SNAP, Spay/Neuter Assistance Program, and we have a clinic grant. Under the clinic grant, if you have a clinic, we will help you. We'll buy the equipment for you, you see, to outfit your clinic or to help you replace old equipment. The SNAP works differently. It is a voucher program. The local organization, let's just say for a moment the animal shelter in Bismarck, North Dakota or the Bismarck Humane Society or the Bismarck SPCA, wants to work on the spay and neuter program in their city, and they don't have a clinic. They don't need one. What we will do is this. They go to the veterinarians and get a certain number of them to participate. Then they find people who are not going to be able to have their pet, their dog--

Collings

Because they can't afford it.

Barker

--spayed or neutered, because they can't afford it. Okay, they will give them a voucher for the spay/neuter surgery. The client, the grantee, will take the voucher and go have the animal spayed or neutered. The veterinarian will return the voucher to that local group. At the end of the month they will send us a bill for all of the spay and neuters, and we pay the bills.

Collings

Oh, wonderful.

Barker

Now, how do we choose these organizations? We work with some organizations that we've been with for years, ten, fifteen years, and once they're out of money, they'll get a five-thousand-dollar grant, ten-thousand-dollar, or twenty-thousand-dollar spay/neuter grant. Once they've used up all their money, they can apply again, and we have organizations that have made ten, twelve, fifteen applications, have received that many grants. And the word spreads from one organization to another until now we're in every state in the union. We don't go outside of the United States, but we're in every state in the union, and in many states we have multiple grantees, multiple organizations, and we understand that in some areas that we are doing more spay/neuters than anyone else, I mean, most of the spay/neuters.

Collings

Yes, that's wonderful, and it also just kind of raises people's awareness of the problem, because certainly, you know, years back, twenty years ago, it wasn't the norm to just go and get your cat or dog--

Barker

People didn't even know what spay/neuter meant.

Collings

Right. Nobody really thought about it.

Barker

No. I can remember when I was a kid in South Dakota, there wasn't even a veterinarian in Mission. A lot of dogs as a result.

Collings

As a result, yes. Let's see, I wanted to ask you about your interest in captive animals, because you had done some work on behalf of the elephants at the L.A. Zoo and bears in the Cherokee-run zoo.

Barker

I've done work on elephants. I've done work on elephants in zoos all over the world.

Collings

Oh, really.

Barker

Yes, I have.

Collings

Why elephants in particular?

Barker

Well, I just mentioned elephants because you did.

Collings

Oh, I see.

Barker

But I've done work on behalf of all kinds of animals. When I missed my meeting with you, I had just returned from Denver, Colorado. I had supported a group, and they went undercover, did undercover work in Bolivia, and got tape of the horrific treatment of animals in circuses in Bolivia. And they went to the government, showed their tapes, told their story, and the government was so impressed, they passed legislation barring any circus from Bolivia that has animals of any kind, even domestic, cats and dogs, nothing, no animals in any circus in Bolivia. So that meant that Animal Defenders International, that's the group, they had to go out with some wildlife people to the circuses, and one after another, gathered in all of these animals from the circuses. They had twenty-five lions, and they were so malnourished and some of them ill, that they had to actually set up a temporary clinic and give them twenty-four-hour-a-day veterinary caring, to get them in shape for a flight. And they, in one plane, brought twenty-five lions, three cubs and twenty-two adults, to Denver, Colorado, and I was back there to meet the plane.

Collings

Oh, were you.

Barker

That's where I was, yes.

Collings

How exciting.

Barker

And they were taken to a sanctuary about thirty or forty miles from Denver, and there they're going to live the life that nature intended lions to live.

Collings

Well, that's wonderful work.

Barker

I'm going to be going next, probably, to Toronto, Canada, and emcee a press conference in an effort to get three elephants that have suffered for years in the Toronto Zoo. We're also trying to get an elephant out of a zoo in Edmonton, Canada. We tried to get Billy out of this Los Angeles Zoo, and have not succeeded. Now they've spent more than forty million dollars of taxpayers' money on a habitat that's too small for three elephants, and they're bringing two more in.

Collings

Because the issue then was that the elephant needed to socialize.

Barker

They needed more room. Elephants walk, walk, walk.

Collings

Yes. Also they can't be kept alone, as I understand it.

Barker

No, they're very social animals. Families of elephants stay together for generations. Herds of elephants will form and stay together for years, and then they walk as much as fifty miles in a day in the wild, and they live to be seventy, seventy-five years old. They can't walk in zoos, and they live to be forty-five, fifty years old, and they're miserable. When you go to the zoo or a circus, you'll see elephants bobbing their heads, bobbing their heads. That's what this poor Billy did out at that Los Angeles Zoo. He was all alone. He was becoming so psychotic he just stood all day and bobbed his head, and then he'd sway back and forth, maybe. They sway back and forth. They don't do either or the other in the wild. It's all caused by the confinement and depression and just a miserable life. And this new habitat that they spent all this money on is too small, and they want to breed elephants, this Los Angeles Zoo. The well-informed zoos, the really progressive zoos all over the world are closing their elephant exhibits, and ours wants to make it bigger, and not better, because they want more elephants, and breed elephants. They're an embarrassment. That zoo is an embarrassment to the city.

Collings

So elephants really are a different kind of animal when it comes to zoos, it sounds like.

Barker

Well, all animals in circuses and all animals in zoos are miserable, but elephants probably suffer as much or if not more than any of the others.

Collings

Because they are so social and they need so much room.

Barker

They're so social, and they're so intelligent. Chimpanzees are so intelligent. They suffer in zoos. They become so bored they start tearing their hair out and everything else.

Collings

Are there any zoos that you can point to that you would say that you respect their work?

Barker

No. To me zoos are prisons for animals.

Collings

What about something like a wild animal park?

Barker

That's better. The parks, they have enough room. They're virtually a sanctuary in some cases, but not zoos.

Collings

So what about your--

Barker

The famous Lincoln Park Zoo in Chicago?

Collings

I've never been. Yes, what--

Barker

They've closed their elephant exhibit.

Collings

Have they closed it?

Barker

Bronx Zoo has closed it. The Central Park Zoo has closed it. London, the great London Zoo, has closed their elephant exhibit. Go ahead.

Collings

Oh, I was going to ask you about your work for the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society.

Barker

Oh, yes. I had heard wonderful things about Sea Shepherd for years, and I understood that they were really in need of a new ship, so I met with Paul Watson, who is the founder and the captain of the Sea Shepherd, and I was well impressed with him. And he told me that his goal was to sink the Japanese whaling fleet economically. It was no longer profitable, really, but it was being subsidized by the Japanese government. And he said that his problem was, he said he had really cut down on the number of whales they were taking, but he needed a new ship that was faster so he could keep up with them, and more maneuverable so he could cut them off from the whales and so on. And he needed a new helicopter, and he needed a lot of equipment. And he said, "If I had five million dollars," he said, "I think I could do it."

Barker

And I said, "Well, I have five million dollars, and you have the ability, I think, so let's go for it," and we did last season. And last season he hurt them so badly that this year--he named the ship the Bob Barker, and he had the Bob Barker out there, and they were right after them all the time. They couldn't get away from them, and they gave up and went home.

Collings

Now, were they hunting in Japanese waters?

Barker

No, they were in the Antarctic.

Collings

Oh, okay.

Barker

And it's supposed to be a sanctuary for whales, and they're breaking the law and going right in to get them, and they claim it's for research.

Collings

So he is within his rights to be in those waters himself.

Barker

Well, yes, he is within his rights to be in that water, absolutely.

Collings

I'm just wondering what the legal issues are.

Barker

Well, there has been a legal issue always. The Japanese claim that he is breaking the law, and he knows they're breaking the law.

Collings

So will he be continuing in the coming year?

Barker

Well, it will be interesting to see if they try it next year. They gave up this year and went back, and he followed them right on back.

Collings

He sounds like quite a character.

Barker

Oh, he is a character. He is a very bright and very courageous man.

Collings

How did you meet him?

Barker

Well, a friend of mine, Nancy Burnett, who is the founder and director of United Activists for Animal Rights, and who is the executive director of the DJ&T Foundation, had talked about him for years and about the Sea Shepherd for years. She had learned that they needed that ship, and she said, "Why don't you meet with him?" And she set up the meeting, and we did.

Collings

Yes, it sounds wonderful. Now, have you done some work around the issue of animal research?

Barker

Animal research? Oh, sure. I've worked with antivivisection groups. Oh, yes. In fact, I emceed the biggest animal rally, it was more than just a demonstration, ever held up till that point on the campus of UCLA.

Collings

Yes, that was just recently.

Barker

No, no, that was about 1953 or ['5]4.

Collings

Oh, my goodness, this goes way back.

Barker

We had three thousand people. It was the most people ever at an animal rights rally up until that time.

Collings

I hadn't realized that your interest had such deep roots.

Barker

As to be interested in antivivisection?

Collings

Yes, in 1953, you said.

Barker

Yes.

Collings

Yes. So--

Barker

Oh, I didn't mean '53. Let me think. I beg your pardon. Oh, no, I don't mean '53. I'm only off about two or three decades.

Collings

Yes, I was wondering.

Barker

Let's see, 19--Dorothy Jo died in '81. About '83, about 1983.

Collings

Right. Okay, yes.

Barker

What's thirty years here and there?

Collings

I was just thinking, "How could you have a career in Hollywood and be doing this other thing?" It would really be difficult.

Barker

Right. No. No one was even using the term animal rights in '53. No, that was a mistake.

Collings

Yes. So in 1983 you started your work.

Barker

'83.

Collings

In '83.

Barker

In '83, that's when we had that rally at UCLA, I think, about.

Collings

And so what involvement have you had in the animal research area since then?

Barker

I support financially an organization called Stop.

Collings

Stop.

Barker

Stop Animal Research Now, or Stop Animal Suffering Now, but they're an anti--I have to look it up, but they're an antivivisection--and I helped a group, and I helped another, I can't remember the name, the one that staged this rally. I helped that group.

Collings

Was it PETA?

Barker

No, no. I help PETA, and PETA is certainly antivivisection. PETA is animal everything.

Collings

Right.

Barker

Some organizations are more general and some are just devoted to one cause. But PETA, I helped them, yes. I have helped them in the last few years quite extensively.

Collings

And is the position of Stop against using animals for research at all or to do it more humanely?

Barker

No, I'm a total abolitionist. Stop it all.

Collings

Stop it all, okay. So have we come to a good place to stop now today, do you think?

Barker

There is an amazing gain in so far as cutting down. When I first started in the animal rights movement, it was rampant. They're careful now, and people, there is such sympathy for the abuses in laboratories, sympathy for the animals, and there is so much more awareness now. When people shop, they look. "No animal research" on the product, you know? And they love to be able to put that on their labels, because that's great for sales.

Collings

Do you think that lending your name to this cause has helped it along? Because sometimes people write off these things and say, "Oh, it's just a bunch of, you know, left-wing people who are never satisfied," or something like that. But you are a face of mainstream television. Do you think that that has--

Barker

I'd like to think so, yes. I'd like to.

Collings

What would you like to see going forward for these organizations? What would you like to see?

Barker

Well, I think that in general that the situation with animals is just improving tremendously. It's like a snowball rolling down a mountain. It's going faster and faster and bigger and bigger, and I think that the progress, as it picks up steam, I think eventually people are going to think of this as the dark ages. They're going to say, "People used to cut up animals in laboratories? Why, that's stupid. That's so ridiculous. Animals aren't like people. They take the medicine and they live just fine. The person takes the medicine and drops dead. And they killed animals and took the fur and wore it, like the cavemen? Is that what? And they beat little baby elephants to break their spirit so they could be in what they called circuses. And then those movies, before they started using the computerized animals, they used real animals in those movies. Real horses were being tripped, and--oh, dark ages."

Collings

Do you think that growing up on the plains influenced your thinking about animals?

Barker

Well, if affected me a lot differently than it did--you know, some people will say, "Well, I love animals. I grew up on a farm." Yes, they loved that little baby pig till they killed it and ate it, and they loved the chicken until they rang its neck and ate it, and they loved their horses until they worked them to death on farms. They loved them. [laughs] So ridiculous.

Barker

I think that if I were a farmer, I'd have to have a tractor, no horse, and I'd have to grow wheat and potatoes.

Collings

Yes, something vegetarian.

Barker

Yes.

Collings

Shall we leave it there for today?

Barker

Sure. Are we about to wind this thing up? I haven't got many stories left. Are we about through? I mean, would you like to have another session?

Collings

That would be fine.[recording interrupted]

Collings

Okay, so we're back on, and we're going to talk about working for Mark Goodson versus working for Ralph Edwards, some of the differences, some of the ways that worked out.

Barker

There were some strong similarities. They were both brilliantly intelligent, and they were both hugely successful, and they both surrounded themselves with intelligent people who were able to improve ideas and build on ideas and produce shows that just had a beautiful professional look and were entertaining and had great longevity. They had those similarities. Now, they were quite different individually. Ralph was very gregarious and outgoing and could entertain any group he was in, and actually worked on-stage himself, was very successful as the host of Truth or Consequences before television. It was a top-rated radio show, the highest rated radio show in the United States in 1941. And, of course, then he is remembered by younger people as the host of This Is Your Life.

Barker

Mark was more withdrawn. He had a close-knit group with whom he socialized, and I'm sure he was very entertaining with them, but he wasn't on-stage and he didn't have any desire to be on-stage. He was a splendid producer. He could look at a rehearsal and say, "You know" this or that, and make improvements. And they were both very delightful men to work for. I think that of all of the packagers of these types of shows, these two were probably the most talented and most successful, and I was fortunate to have worked for years for both of them, and enjoyed every moment of it.

Collings

Do you sort of see in the difference between Ralph Edwards and Goodson a kind of a shift in the entertainment business, a kind of moving away from that almost vaudevillian live performance kind of thing into more of a business, of a strictly business?

Barker

Yes. I would like to add one thing. Both of these men were gentlemen. They were gentlemen, and there are an awful lot of people in entertainment who are not. I think that both of them were in the audience participation field at a time when it was more pure audience participation, and then became game shows and now it's gone on to--well, I don't know I have a word to describe it.

Collings

Well, most recently wasn't Watson the computer a contestant on--

Barker

Yes, well, Watson the computer was a contestant on Jeopardy and beat the human.

Collings

Right. That's right.

Barker

But I play electronic chess, and that beats this human, too.

Collings

Well, I think that people are saying that Watson won because it was faster to the buzzer.

Barker

Oh, really.

Collings

Yes. It wasn't necessarily that--

Barker

They both knew, but--

Collings

Yes, they knew, but with the circuitry and everything, it just [imitates sound] bzzzt, and it just got it fast and got the chance to answer the questions more quickly.

Barker

I didn't see any of those, but I read about them.

Collings

Yes, it was just last week or so. So what were some of the big changes that occurred during all those years of Price Is Right? I mean, the format and the emphasis of the show.

Barker

Well, the Price Is Right originally was a television show with Bill Cullen as the host, and there was nothing more than four contestants at a table, seated there at a table, and they would bring out a prize, and they'd bid on it. If you bid, you had to big higher, I think, than the previous contestant.

Collings

So it was sort of an auction at that point.

Barker

Well, it was that, but you didn't want to go over it, because if you bid over, then you definitely lost, so if the first person bid, and the second person bid--there were four of them. If all four bid, then they'd go another round maybe, and then if you didn't want to bid anymore, you say, "I freeze." Now, that's not a good explanation of the whole thing, but that's pretty much the essence of it, I think, I think. And when Mark wanted me to do it, he completely changed the game, the show. The only thing in the show that I did that even could be compared to the original show is that when you came on down, on my show, you came on down to Contestants' Row, and there you did bid just as I've described on the old show. You bid to get up on-stage, and up on-stage you had an opportunity. You won a prize for coming up on-stage, but then you had a chance to win more on the stage, and those games were of every type.

Barker

And then when we became an hour show--when we first started, we were a half-hour, but when it became an hour show, we would play three games and spin the big wheel, and one of those contestants would have a chance to go to the Showcase at the end of the show. And then we'd play three more games with contestants from Contestants' Row, and then we'd spin the big wheel and one of those would go to the Showcase, and those two would then bid on the Showcases, and, of course, that was the really big deal.

Collings

And how did the ratings go over those years? Was it always up?

Barker

Up, up, up. We were a hit from day one. We went on the air in September of '72, and we never had to worry about ratings. We were always number one or two, and we were successful beyond our dreams. People lined up to get in. People with tickets who didn't get there in time, the seats would fill up and they couldn't get in even if they had a ticket. And it just went on like that for thirty-five beautiful years. I used to tell the younger people as they came on, I said, "Enjoy this, because it's not always like this," and they're finding that out now.

Collings

The younger people that came on to like the production staff or--

Barker

Yes. That's right, yes. I would tell the young people, "Don't think that you're always going to have this."

Collings

Why do you think the show as so popular?

Barker

Well, my agent said it was the emcee. [laughter] In all truth, I think it’s a combination of a lot of things. And basically, I think it's the basic premise of the show, Price Is Right is based on prices, and everyone identifies with prices, no matter what you do. If you're the professor at a university, if you're driving a cab, if you're a lifeguard, whatever you are, you're conscious of prices, and you have a general idea. And when we bring out something and say, "What do you bid on this?" the viewer becomes involved, and that's what every game show wants, is viewer involvement. If we can get viewers involved, we'll have them. And beyond that, I tried to make it an event. I tried to make it exciting. I tried to make each show have its own personality through the people--

Collings

That's quite a challenge.

Barker

--through the people. I'd have one type of thing going one day and another type of thing going another day, and so you never knew for sure what you were going to get. You knew that we'd be playing games that, if you had watched the show long enough, you had seen before, but a game is completely different with each contestant if you work with that contestant, and that's what I did. And I loved it, and we had fun.

Collings

What about the products that came on? Was there a wide variety or did you tend to stick with a few things that worked well?

Barker

We had a wide variety of prizes, and among them fur coats, and I got those taken off the show and got all leather prizes taken off the show. And when we'd bring out a barbecue, it would never have meat on it. It would always have vegetables on it. I did things like that, because I became more and more involved in the animal rights movement and became more conscious of what was right. The prizes in the beginning, the first car I gave away, I think, was two thousand, sixty-five dollars, and you couldn't buy a motor scooter now for two thousand, sixty-five dollars. And we had games where we had four slots for the price of a car, you know, and we had to rebuild those, five. You couldn't get a car for four. You had to go to five. And all the time we were being told there was no inflation, The Price Is Right reflected the fact that there was inflation.

Barker

We had all kinds of prizes, boats, cars, motorcycles, prizes of every description, big and little, and kept trying to change them, I mean, adding to them. Had a huge warehouse where we kept them.

Collings

Oh, really. Where was the warehouse?

Barker

Over there by the studio at Beverly and Fairfax.

Collings

I'll bet that was a heavily guarded warehouse.

Barker

Yes, it was.

Collings

It's kind of hard for me to imagine people actually accurately guessing the cost of fur coats, because, you know, probably not that many people had direct experience with them, unlike, you know, a car or--

Barker

Right. Well, we had some wild bids at times. We had a surfboard one time, and the first bidder made a reasonable bid. The second bidder in Contestant's Row made a reasonable bid, and the third did as well, and the fourth bid was a kind of a middle-aged woman, and she said, "Nine thousand dollars." [laughter]

Barker

I said, "Madam, if you think that surfboard is nine thousand dollars, I have a surfboard I'm going to sell you at a real bargain after the show."

Collings

I'll bet that got a good laugh.

Barker

[laughs] Oh, she was cute.

Collings

So it sounds like your interests, you know, you were on the show and you were starting to have this sensibility about animals, and you said that that came from your wife, Dorothy Jo.

Barker

No, first. At first.

Collings

At first, yes, yes. I mean, do you think that she would have picked up those ideas if she hadn't been living in California?

Barker

I don't know. I think she might have. She always loved animals. We both loved animals.

Collings

It wasn't a certain community of people or--

Barker

I don't think it was a community. She was quite an individual. She was one bright lady. I spoke at my alma mater. I was the commencement speaker.

Collings

Drury, was it?

Barker

Drury University. It was Drury College when I went there. But I told the graduates, the graduating seniors, actually, I told them that as far as young men were concerned, my advice was to find a young lady who is a whole lot brighter than you are and let her make the decisions. And I said, "That's what I did, and it worked."

Collings

What did she do with her time after you didn't have the Barker Company anymore?

Barker

I'm looking around here. She made every beaded flower in this room and all the rooms there in all the house.

Collings

Oh, so she was an artist.

Barker

She beaded flowers. She started doing a little painting. She learned Spanish. She spoke it so fluently that one time she and I, we were in Guadalajara, and we checked into the hotel, and the Sauza tequila family were having a big party upstairs in the ballroom. And one of the members of the family, I guess, or a close friend or something, came by, and he recognized me, and he invited me to the party, and my wife and my mother. We had taken my mother with us. So that was great. Dorothy Jo was learning Spanish. She loved Spanish. She thought, "Oh, boy, let's go." So we went up there, and she spoke Spanish so well that, with all these people there, she had a little crowd just gathered around her to hear her speak Spanish.

Collings

Wow.

Barker

And one fellow said to me--he was a Mexican. He said, "You know, Bob," he said, "your wife speaks Spanish like a well-educated Mexican." That's how well she spoke it, and Mr. Sauza just fell in love with her, the old man. He invited us out to the ranch where they grew the cactus for the tequila for the next day, and he had a veritable fiesta. He had music and tables, and we just had a wonderful time. And I've been drinking Sauza tequila ever since.

Collings

Brand loyalty.

Barker

Out of loyalty, right.

Collings

You did a lot of work with parades as well.

Barker

Parades.

Collings

Grand master--

Barker

You mean as the emcee?

Collings

Yes.

Barker

Oh, I emceed the Rose Parade for CBS for twenty-one years, and that was interesting. I'll tell you what, as a result of that I got offers to do parades. There's not a parade in the United States of any size, I don't think, that I haven't done. I have done the Macy's Parade several times. I've done the Mummers Parade in Philadelphia. I did the big parade in Detroit. I've forgotten the name of it. But I've seen a lot of parades in my time.

Collings

Do you like parades?

Barker

I don't watch them anymore. I've seen them. They ain't going to do nothing I ain't seen. [laughs] I'll tell you this, though, the best organized parade I've ever seen in my life is that Rose Parade. It starts on time, and it's in the right place at the right time. Those fellows, they become members of the committee over there, you know, and work their way up. They take it very seriously, and it shows in that parade. It's an excellent parade. It's a beautiful parade. It's seen all over the world.

Collings

Yes. So how much preparation would you need to do to do a parade, or was it pretty much all ad lib?

Barker

We did a lot of preparation. I don't think they do as much now. They may. I shouldn't say that. They may. But we used to go over and visit the--they make them in what they call hangars, and we used to go visit all the hangars and meet the people who actually built the parade.--volunteers do that--and the creators of the parade, of these floats. We really got to know the parade.

Collings

That sounds like a huge time commitment.

Barker

Well, it was. It was.

Collings

So you wanted to be prepared to make some kind of very specific comment about each of these floats.

Barker

Right. Well, they had a script, but we didn't stay on the script. We'd do a line or two, maybe, from the script, and we'd talk about it, the parade, and kind of try to humanize it.

Collings

Right. That's right.

Barker

Make it a family affair.

Collings

Yes. And would you have some choice over who your partner would be?

Barker

No, I didn't have any choice. I worked with several different women over the years. There was a grand marshal every year, and I would tape an interview with the grand marshal before the show, and then when the grand marshal came by, they'd play the interview.

Barker

Did I tell you the story about Frank Sinatra?

Collings

I don't think so.

Barker

Well, he was the grand marshal one year, and when Dorothy Jo and I were in high school, I told you how we saw Ella Fitzgerald at the old Shrine Mosque in Springfield, Missouri, our first date?

Collings

No.

Barker

Didn't I tell you that?

Collings

No.

Barker

Well, the Shrine Mosque was a place where they staged a lot of events, and we had our first date November 17, 1939.

Collings

Boy, you're so good with dates.

Barker

Well, that one. That's an important one. And we went to hear Ella Fitzgerald, and Ella Fitzgerald was just a girl then herself. She was in her early twenties. She had been singing with the old Chick Webb Band, and I think Chick died. But he may not have at that time, or soon after if he did. I think he had. But she had a hit record with him called "A-Tisket, A-Tasket," and she went out on the road on her own, just a young lady doing personal appearances. She had a huge crowd there that night. We had a wonderful time. But we fell in love that night. She went home and told her mother she was going to marry me. [laughs]

Collings

Oh, really.

Barker

She was right. But they brought in a big band once a month every month, and one night they brought in Tommy Dorsey, and Dorsey came out, and he said, "We have a new singer with us," and he said, "I hope that you enjoy him. Here is Frank Sinatra." And here came Sinatra, skinny as a rail, hair all hanging down, you know, a lot of hair. And he sang "Indian Summer."

Barker

I'm totally not musical, and I don't know a good singer from a bad one, but I turned to Dorothy Jo, and I said, "How is he?"

Barker

She said, "He's pretty good." [laughter]

Barker

But in his introduction he said, "Frank Sinatra is singing with us tonight for the first time with the band." So years go by, and I'm interviewing Frank Sinatra as the grand marshal. So we finished our interview, and I said, "Frank"--we sat and talked for a minute or two. I said, "Frank, I was in your audience," and I heard that t_____ about Springfield, Missouri, and I said, "Was that really the first time you ever sang with Dorsey, or was he saying that every night?"

Barker

He said, "Could have been. It could have been." In other words, he didn't want to destroy my illusion, you know, that I had seen him the first time he sang with Dorsey.

Barker

Now, we double-dated that night with a good friend of mine named Jim Lowe. Jim was a top disc jockey in New York for years, and he interviewed Frank Sinatra.

Collings

Oh, no.

Barker

So he was there that night, and so he said, "You know, Frank, I was in Springfield, Missouri, when you were with Dorsey, and he said that was the first time you ever sang with Dorsey. Was it really?"

Barker

And Sinatra said, "Could have been. Could have been." Now, you know, if you went to Kansas City the next night, because those were one-nighters, and you ever met a guy from Kansas City, he'd say, "Could have been. Could have been." Then he goes over the border to Oklahoma, and [unclear] Oklahoma says, "Could have been. Could have been." [laughter] I thought that was nice of him, though, to let me believe that maybe I saw him the first night.

Collings

Right. Yes, yes. When did the parades start being emceed like that? That means that it's really a television event, doesn't it, rather than just something--

Barker

Master of ceremonies?

Collings

Yes. I mean, a parade is normally something that just goes down the street.

Barker

Oh, well, a parade, I said I emceed the parade, yes. I described the parade. There were people who worked with me who didn't. Tony Orlando, he's hardly an emcee. He's a singer. And June Lockhart, she did it with me one afternoon. Joan Van Ark did it with me, yes.

Collings

So I guess there's just this idea that once the parade comes on TV, you need somebody to--

Barker

To describe it.

Collings

--to describe it--

Barker

Sure.

Collings

--and kind of lead the audience--

Barker

Exactly.

Collings

--through it and keep them--

Barker

And read the commercials. [laughs]

Collings

And read the commercials, oh, so that was part of it as well. So in the early days you wouldn't cut away to a commercial. You would say--

Barker

Well, they'd cut away to some of them, but we did some of them. No, what I meant was, we didn't do the commercial. We would, you know, say the lead-in.

Collings

Oh, yes. Okay, yes. Because, I mean, in some of the early TV shows they would actually--

Barker

Yes, we didn't do the commercials. Well, I did on Truth or Consequences. I did the commercials. I'd say--the end of Consequence, and, "Congratulations. You've won this," and so on and so on. "And now, ladies and gentlemen," and I'd step over to another area and do a commercial, and then I'd come back and do the show.

Collings

So you would describe a product, a dishwasher or something like that.

Barker

Right, whatever we were selling.

Collings

That was kind of going back to your--

Barker

Doing the Edison shows, right.

Collings

Right. Exactly.

Barker

In fact, when I first started doing Truth or Consequences, I got a little boost, I got a fee for every commercial, and after they had sold enough that I felt confident that this was going to last, I went out and bought a Cadillac convertible. [laughter] Then I was really living in Hollywood. Oh, dear. A white one with red leather upholstery.

Collings

Oh, my gosh. Do you still have that car?

Barker

No, no, no, no. That's several cars ago.

Collings

So I guess you had a certain idea that, you know, to be properly living in Hollywood, you needed a car like this.

Barker

Sure, you had to have a convertible.

Collings

What else did you need to do with your life to be properly living in Hollywood?

Barker

People asked Dorothy Jo, "When Bob first knew that he was to be the host of Truth or Consequences, what did you do?"

Barker

She said, "I went out and bought a salt and pepper shaker that I admired." [laughter] Really living it up.

Collings

Yes. Well, I guess that's the question that I asked you. I said, "How did you celebrate when you found out?" and it sounds like that's what she did.

Barker

That's what she did. She had liked that very expensive, for those days, salt and pepper shakers, and she went and got them. Oh, that was fun, all of it.[End of interview]