A TEI Project

Interview of Renee Esther "Winnie" James

Table of contents

1. Transcript

1.1. SESSION ONE
MAY 16, 2011

BAYHYLLE
This is Ruth Bayhylle. The date today is May 16 [2011]. I am in Anaheim [California] speaking with Winnie James. Winnie, what is your full name?
JAMES
Renee Esther James.
BAYHYLLE
When and where were you born?
JAMES
Stonewall, Oklahoma.
BAYHYLLE
What tribe are you?
JAMES
Chickasaw.
BAYHYLLE
You’re full?
JAMES
Full-blood.
BAYHYLLE
Full Chickasaw. Where did you grow up and where did you go to school in Oklahoma?
JAMES
I went to [unclear] Elementary School in Jesse, Oklahoma, and then I went to Stonewall freshman and sophomore year, and then I went to Fitzhugh. We lost our parents, my mom, when I was two, so my dad raised us four. There was four, two brothers, a sister, and I. Then he raised us, and then at the age of sixteen, why, we lost him, so I lived with my brother. From Stonewall High School I went to Fitzhugh High School for my junior year.
BAYHYLLE
How do you spell that? F-i—
JAMES
F-i-t-z-h-u-g-h, I think.
BAYHYLLE
So you went there for just a couple of years?
JAMES
One year there, and then I went to the boarding school. I went to Chilocco for one year, because I was staying with my brother, but I felt it was just a burden on him because he already had a family, and at my time my sis and I decided we would come out on relocation. So I was in my senior year, so I told her, “Well, you go on out to California, and I’m going to stay here and go finish my twelfth grade,” so I did. I stayed there and she came on out, which was easier for me because she was already out here.
BAYHYLLE
How did you hear about relocation then? How did you know about it?
JAMES
I really don’t know how we heard about it.
BAYHYLLE
Was it through somewhere at Chilocco, some of the people there at Chilocco?
JAMES
No, it was before then, because I knew about it before I went to Chilocco.
BAYHYLLE
Did you know someone who was coming out here on it already?
JAMES
Not that I know of. Well, as usual, I followed my sister, so I guess that’s where—maybe she heard about it and that’s what we decided to do because we had no place to live. So she came out and that’s where we started, here.
BAYHYLLE
So you decided to separate then. You suggested she go out first and do—so she came out on relocation first, then. Is that right?
JAMES
First, yeah.
BAYHYLLE
And you stayed at Chilocco to finish your last year at high school. What was that like going to Chilocco?
JAMES
Going to Chilocco was a real experience for me because at home, since I was the younger one, my brothers and sisters did everything for me, and when I got to Chilocco, oh, my god, I had to do my own laundry. [laughs] Do I have to do this the rest of my life? But it was an experience for me in knowing how—I never knew about reservation people, and we had a lot of Navajo people coming there, so I got to meet different tribes. I never met different tribes. I was saw just regular Chickasaw peoples I’d always been around. But it broadened my shoulders. You can meet other people.
BAYHYLLE
So it was a brand-new experience for you, it sounds like, right?
JAMES
Brand-new experience, my first year living in boarding schools, yeah. But I was glad as we were growing up because all of my friends were all sent away to a boarding school, but I was glad my dad did not send us. There were four of us, but he sent us to a public school. We went there. So boarding school was a really new experience for me.
BAYHYLLE
You had had such a long experience in public schools, and then this one last year in boarding school. What was the big difference between the two, other than obviously the living?
JAMES
The difference was of being around Indian people, Indian students, because I was the only Native American in high school, even in public school, except for my brothers, but when they left, well, I was the only one.
BAYHYLLE
Other than your immediate family, you hadn’t been around a lot of other Indian tribes before, so that was a real adjustment.
JAMES
Really, yeah, that was really an experience with different friends. Like, in high school, going with the white students, we had to make sure that we got our lessons, our lessons and whatnot, but then when I got to Chilocco, they were so laid back.
BAYHYLLE
In terms of your schoolwork, you mean?
JAMES
Yeah, and as far as activity, too, you know. I always played sports, so it was just not my thing not to do anything.
BAYHYLLE
You’re always active and busy and things.
JAMES
Yeah, and I just couldn’t see them not doing anything, you know.
BAYHYLLE
What kinds of classes did you take at Chilocco then?
JAMES
Well, at Chilocco I really had to just make up my classes because I liked—in high school juniors and seniors would take classes together, and sometimes I went—like, my junior year already I was taking senior typing, so that was a second-year—
BAYHYLLE
Class.
JAMES
—class. So then when I got into senior, when I went to Chilocco, they didn’t have—
BAYHYLLE
A higher-level typing course for you?
JAMES
Yeah, uh-huh. No, I had one. Typing I was one that I had, and then went to Chilocco, well, I didn’t have Typing II. So I was out of luck with typing, but that’s what I really wanted, but it’s not what I got. I just had to take, like, English. I think English and history were the only two subjects that I took in my senior year because all the rest I had before, so I had to take freshman classes, I had to take, in order to make up my classes to graduate. So only those two subjects that was required that I could take.
BAYHYLLE
When you started your last year at Chilocco, your high school year then, where you sort of already planning on going to relocation then and meet up with your sister?
JAMES
Yeah, because my sister’s already here, and as soon as I graduate, then I was going to come out here. So that was my plan after graduating.
BAYHYLLE
What is your sister’s name?
JAMES
You know, come to think of it, I don’t know if she—I think she did more, like, factory work.
BAYHYLLE
What is her name?
JAMES
Lily.
BAYHYLLE
So Lily came out here to Los Angeles on relocation.
JAMES
Yes, uh-huh. So she came first, and she met Mary and Baseeda, all my friends. That’s how I met all of them. They knew them first before I met them.
BAYHYLLE
Did you write letters to each other while she was out here, or how did you stay in touch?
JAMES
Yes, I did when I was at Chilocco. What happened was every two weeks, I guess, she got paid, so she would give me, like, ten dollars, to get my toothpaste and whatever I had to have, because we had no income coming in because I had no family to really support me, but she was doing it, really.
BAYHYLLE
What did she say in her letters about life out here?
JAMES
She would just tell me what they would do on the weekends or after work.
BAYHYLLE
What were they doing, kinds of things they were doing?
JAMES
Just regular things that she would do. She wasn’t sport-minded either, so they did more picnic, because there were families that were out here that they knew, so they would do more—go out and have picnics on Sundays.
BAYHYLLE
What kind of work did she do?
JAMES
Factory, sewing, and all that, yeah.
BAYHYLLE
So she was doing seamstress work.
JAMES
Seamstress work, yeah, uh-huh.
BAYHYLLE
Commercial sewing. So you were at Chilocco for the last year and you were trying to make up classes because you wanted more advanced typing classes, more advanced secretarial kind of work, is that right?
JAMES
Yeah.
BAYHYLLE
Is that what you really wanted to do?
JAMES
That’s what I wanted to do, you know, and then when I did leave Chilocco to come out here, then I went to—I don’t know what you would call it—advanced school or something and took my senior year of typing, my second year of typing.
BAYHYLLE
Where did you go?
JAMES
It was Grand there in Los Angeles.
BAYHYLLE
Grand School?
JAMES
Grand—I forgot what they called it, but it was a school, like adult school. It was like adult school.
BAYHYLLE
So you finished Chilocco and then you came out to Los Angeles. Did you actually go through relocation then, or did you just come out to be with your sister?
JAMES
No, I went through relocation.
BAYHYLLE
Tell me about that. Where did you go and sign up, and who did you talk to?
JAMES
Well, since she was coming out, we both went the same time.
BAYHYLLE
Who’s that?
JAMES
My sis and I. We both went same time there in Ada [Oklahoma] to the agency. Then we both signed up, and I told them what I wanted to do, so they had all my paperwork ready for me to go after I graduated.
BAYHYLLE
What kinds of paperwork did they have you fill out or what was the process like for relocation?
JAMES
It was more just regular, basic, your name, whatever, and what you wanted to do when you came out here. So, of course, we had no résumé.
BAYHYLLE
Very little work experience.
JAMES
Yeah, uh-huh, so I just told them that I wanted to be a secretary, but I didn’t have my second year, but which I didn’t let them know. [laughs] So anyway, I thought, “Well, if I can do my first year of typing, well, maybe that will hold me over till I do something,” and it really did. It really did hold me over until I went to school.
BAYHYLLE
Now, Ada, was that the Tribal Office or the BIA [Bureau of Indian Affairs] office?
JAMES
Tribal. Oh, no, it was the Ardmore [Oklahoma].
BAYHYLLE
That was the Tribal Office, then, you went to to sign up.
JAMES
Yeah.
BAYHYLLE
So the two of you signed up together, you and your sister, and she went out on the program and you went to high school.
JAMES
Yeah.
BAYHYLLE
When the two of you, then, were signing up for relocation, did they tell you how it was going to work or what you could expect—
JAMES
No.
BAYHYLLE
—or how things were going to be for either one of you? You didn’t tell your sister either, right, how it was going to go?
JAMES
Nuh-uh.
BAYHYLLE
How did she—this is your sister now—how did she get from Ada or that area to Los Angeles?
JAMES
Well, we both did. When I had to come, too, we had to go back to Ardmore and catch a train, and it brought us all the way out to Los Angeles.
BAYHYLLE
So the BIA paid for your train fare, is that right?
JAMES
Uh-huh.
BAYHYLLE
Let’s talk about your sister just a minute, what you remember, your sister Lily. She came out on the train. Did she have any spending money or was she given any vouchers for anything to come out? Because she probably had very little money herself, right?
JAMES
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, uh-huh. No, I think they must have gave us some monies, otherwise we had no money at all.
BAYHYLLE
Right. You need something for meals and incidentals.
JAMES
Yeah, they must have gave us something. I don’t even recall what they had given us.
BAYHYLLE
Now, your sister Lily was how old?
JAMES
She must have been—I was eighteen, so she must have been twenty-one or twenty-two.
BAYHYLLE
That’s still very young to be all alone and out on your own.
JAMES
That’s why I say, how did we ever make it? And I had never been out of Jesse, Oklahoma, with nothing, with nothing, you know.
BAYHYLLE
So you finished your school at Chilocco, and then you went back down to Ardmore to talk to people about relocation, or did you [unclear] Kansas City?
JAMES
I had to go back to Ardmore and finalize my paper, tell that, okay, I’m ready to go now. So they did get my paperwork ready and they let you know by letter what day to come, what day you were going to leave.
BAYHYLLE
So did they pay for your train ticket, too, then?
JAMES
Yeah.
BAYHYLLE
And then probably gave you some money, some spending money.
JAMES
Yeah, they must have gave us some spending money, because I don’t remember—
BAYHYLLE
How else would you have gotten out here?
JAMES
How would we have got here?
BAYHYLLE
So tell me about the trip out then, what you can remember of it.
JAMES
Oh, it was so tiresome.
BAYHYLLE
A long trip, I bet.
JAMES
It was a long trip, yeah, and the scariest part was once we left Ardmore and we got here, not knowing where to go or anything, and then once you get to the train station there in Los Angeles, you had to get off there and they’d say, “Oh, you take the bus,” certain number of bus, “then you come down to the BIA office.”
BAYHYLLE
On Broadway.
JAMES
Yeah, on Broadway. It was frightening because you’ve never been a big town before, and so you kind of [unclear]. Then you ask people. So that’s how I got to get around.
BAYHYLLE
That first day when you got into Los Angeles at the train station downtown, Union Station, I guess, is where you came in, is that right?
JAMES
Yeah, uh-huh.
BAYHYLLE
Was there someone there to meet you?
JAMES
No. They just told us how to get off the train and get out there and catch the bus and go down to the BIA office.
BAYHYLLE
So were you able to do that then, go down to the BIA office the very first day you got here?
JAMES
Yeah.
BAYHYLLE
Okay, that’s good.
JAMES
You have to go in and report there.
BAYHYLLE
What happened there then? Obviously, you met someone and they talked to you.
JAMES
Yeah, and coming to think of it, when I got there, well, then there was a young man that he and I graduated out of Chilocco together.
BAYHYLLE
My gosh.
JAMES
So he was working there.
BAYHYLLE
He was already here.
JAMES
At least I know one person, yeah.
BAYHYLLE
One familiar face.
JAMES
Yes, uh-huh. So he’s the one who helped me to get my paperwork, and then later on they turned it over to somebody else to help you with your applications to get your job.
BAYHYLLE
So that first night or those first few days you were in Los Angeles, where did you stay and what did you do?
JAMES
With my sis, because she already had a place out here. They put you only one building, all the relocation people, so Baseeda was in there, Mary was in there, my sis was in there. That’s how we all become friends, because we were all in one apartment, Lakeview in L.A.
BAYHYLLE
Lakeview Apartments?
JAMES
Uh-huh.
BAYHYLLE
And that’s how you all met each other, then, pretty much. Was it just a building for women only, or were there men there as well?
JAMES
No, it’s men, both men and women, yeah.
BAYHYLLE
Were there any families there, or just single people?
JAMES
No, there were families there. There were families there.
BAYHYLLE
So you got here, your sister was already working, already had the apartment, so that helped you quite a bit to get established.
JAMES
It really did.
BAYHYLLE
So tell me about those first few weeks, the first month when you started staying with your sister and going through relocation. What did you do? How did that go for you?
JAMES
First thing, once they got us settled in our apartments, because they knew that my sis was there, and once I got settled, then the next day I had to go back into the office to do my interview, I guess you would call it. So then they would give you your money, because they’d pay your first month’s rent and give you food money for the month also. So they’d let you know you had to find a job within that time.
BAYHYLLE
Within a month, then.
JAMES
Uh-huh, yeah. So I was very lucky that I got mine within two weeks, you know.
BAYHYLLE
How did that go for you? Did you have places that you had to go interview, or were there already people—
JAMES
I had to go for interview. I put down secretarial, but, you know, I didn’t have that—no résumé, so I went to this one office that was Fireman’s Fund Insurance Company right on Wilshire [Boulevard]. It’s a big company, files upon files. The lady that was my—I think she was a sponsor or whoever—
BAYHYLLE
At the company or at the BIA?
JAMES
No, at the BIA.
BAYHYLLE
She was sort of your caseworker or someone assigned to you?
JAMES
Yeah, somebody you have to report to.
BAYHYLLE
What was her name, do you remember?
JAMES
I don’t know what her name was, no.
BAYHYLLE
So she arranged this job interview for you at Fireman’s Fund?
JAMES
No, she sent me out to different places for interview, but they didn’t ever call me back. But I happened to find a lady that knew this Fireman’s Fund, and she said, “Well, come up there. They’re hiring.” So I went up to Fireman’s Fund, and then I got on as a file clerk, because they had files upon files. So I become files clerk, and then I worked there I don’t know how long. But that’s when I decided, well, I need to go back to school, because the lady that was my supervisor there at Fireman’s Fund, and I had told her what I wanted to do, and she said, “Well, go to night school.” So I said, “Oh, good.” So I went to night school.
BAYHYLLE
Where did you go?
JAMES
At that Grand, whatever that—
BAYHYLLE
Academy or school or whatever it is.
JAMES
Yeah. So I went there and started taking typing and I finished my typing, and then she said, “Well, Winnie, since you’ve finished your typing, we’ll advance you up to policy writing.” So from file clerk I went up to policy writing.
BAYHYLLE
That’s a big jump.
JAMES
I think we were getting $2 an hour, 2.50 an hour, but that was good. We had to pay for our apartment. My and my sis lived together, so that was good.
BAYHYLLE
What year was this, Winnie?
JAMES
I came out in ’56, February ’56.
BAYHYLLE
So by the latter part of 1956, you had a job at the Fireman’s Fund.
JAMES
Yes.
BAYHYLLE
Great. Good. So how long did you work at Fireman’s Fund, do you think?
JAMES
I worked at Fireman’s Fund for two years and then I got married. Then I stayed off work for about—no, I got married and then after I had my first child in ’60, then I went back to work about a year and a half afterward.
BAYHYLLE
So ’61 or ’62 you went back to work.
JAMES
Yes, I went back to work.
BAYHYLLE
Same place, Fireman’s Fund?
JAMES
No, I went back to—oh, yes, I did. It was Fireman’s Fund that I went back to, yeah. Then my husband was working in San Fernando—not San Fernando. Yeah, I guess, San Fernando by Glendale somewhere. He was working there, so he would take me, drop me off. Then he’d go on and pick me up—
BAYHYLLE
In the evening.
JAMES
—and come on home.
BAYHYLLE
Had he come out on relocation too?
JAMES
No, he just came straight from Haskell. I don’t think he came on relocation.
BAYHYLLE
Let’s go back to when you and your sister were living together and when you first got here. You met all of the other women that were in the apartment there, and they all became friends fairly quickly, I would imagine. What kinds of things did you do for fun after work and on the weekends?
JAMES
After work we just went sightseeing or whatever we could do, because the only thing we could do was ride the bus—
BAYHYLLE
Right. No one had a car.
JAMES
—which wasn’t too dangerous then. So we would do that or go down to Long Beach because they had the [unclear], so you’d go down there.
BAYHYLLE
A lot of people went there, I understand.
JAMES
And like I was telling you, on the weekends we’d have our picnics or everybody get together at somebody’s place and just have a potluck or whatever.
BAYHYLLE
So it sounds like you had an instant family there waiting for you.
JAMES
Once we got together, because, like, Baseeda and Mary really knew lots of people because they come through the BIA.
BAYHYLLE
When you came out on that train trip, you said it was a long trip and you were very tired. What did you bring with you on the train, what kinds of things? You had a suitcase, I would imagine, of something.
JAMES
Yeah, just my suitcase and that was it.
BAYHYLLE
Just your clothes, then?
JAMES
Just my clothes.
BAYHYLLE
You stayed with your sister there at the apartment. Describe your apartment where you stayed. What did it look like?
JAMES
Our apartment was a two-bedroom apartment. Then we had a cooking facility and whatnot. So it was just a regular apartment.
BAYHYLLE
So you each had your own bedroom, though, at least, right? Was it just the two of you staying there? Did someone else come and stay with you?
JAMES
Just the two of us, yeah.
BAYHYLLE
You said there were lots of other Indian people there and Indian families and other Indian women that you made friends with. Were there any other kinds of people living there, any other races? Was it strictly pretty much Indian people?
JAMES
They could have been—maybe could have been Hispanic, but I would be more likely to say, “Oh, they’re Native,” you know.
BAYHYLLE
While you were living there then, did you miss your home or did you have any regrets then about coming out? What was a hard part for you?
JAMES
Well, for me, you know, it wasn’t really that because we had nothing to go back for, except my two brothers.
BAYHYLLE
Your brothers and their families.
JAMES
My sister and I was out here, you know. But I would go back nearly every year because I did miss my brothers. My sis, after I was out here maybe three years or so, she got married, and then she start raising her family and she moved out of the apartment. Then I ended up with two roommates, they were twins, so they were my roommates. So that’s how we—and they were the girls that graduated with me from high school from Chilocco. I had wrote back to them.
BAYHYLLE
So more Chilocco friends.
JAMES
I wrote back, said, “Come on out to Los Angeles,” you know, so they came out and we become roommates, because my sis had moved out.
BAYHYLLE
These friends of yours, did they come out on relocation too?
JAMES
They came on relocation.
BAYHYLLE
How did that work for them?
JAMES
It worked out fine with them because I was there.
BAYHYLLE
Right, and already, again, had a place to stay.
JAMES
I had everything built in for us when my sis—everything was new for her. By the time they came, I knew what to do and where to go and take them, so it worked out fine for them.
BAYHYLLE
What was the best part about living there, do you think, with your sister and then even after she moved out? What was the best part about being out here?
JAMES
Well, I think because, I guess, maybe the weather and going out and seeing things I’ve never seen before. So we would try to experience good places to go which we never had seen because the girls that was my roommates were Choctaws, so they were further back east than I was from Ada or Stonewall.
BAYHYLLE
Right, the Missouri border.
JAMES
So everything was just new to us. We did our thing by doing that.
BAYHYLLE
New experience.
JAMES
Yeah, a new experience.
BAYHYLLE
What was the worst part about being out here?
JAMES
I really have no regret.
BAYHYLLE
No? Nothing stands out in your mind as being a bad experience or bad—
JAMES
No bad experience. I don’t know. I was always on the go, always active, doing different things. I really never was depressed or—
BAYHYLLE
Upset or—
JAMES
Just once in a great while I would think, “Oh, I want to go home,” and I’d go home, and I was satisfied staying two weeks, because once I got back there, everything was so slow for me. [laughs] Everybody went to bed at six o’clock. You couldn’t go to the store because it was closed. So out here you could go there anytime. The stores were open.
BAYHYLLE
Right. Lots of places and things to do out here. The job that you had, you were at Fireman’s Fund and then another place, you said, after you got married and started your own family.
JAMES
Yes, uh-huh. Well, I went back to Fireman’s Fund after I had my first child, and then I had my second child, and then I just told my husband, “You know, it’s just too much on me to find a babysitter and then drag the kids here and there, so I’m just going to stay home.” So I stayed home, well, probably fifteen years, because both my kids were in—my daughter was in high school, my son was in junior high. But they both was athletic, too, you know, and oh, my god, at that time tennis shoes—I think tennis shoes were so expensive, socks was expensive. So I told my husband, I said, “I’m going to go out and get me something, some kind of job,” because I used to babysit a lot for people on my block. So that was, like, just fun money, you know. But then I thought, “Well, I need to go back to work.” I worked with the—not worked with the program; I was with Native American Education Program in Santa Fe High that’s in Norwalk, because my daughter was going to school there. My son was at junior high further down the street. I met this lady, and she used to be at the powwows. So she come in and worked—I don’t know what it was, Title IV, Title—some program for Indian education. So she came in. She was working with me, and she was working for Rockwell International, the Space Division, in Downey. So I had told her, I said, “Oh, Glenda, I want to get back in the workforce since my kids are in high school now. I’d like to do something. I just get bored being home.” I said I hadn’t worked for that long amount of time. So she said, “Well, come up to Rockwell and ask for me,” because you have to go through the guard shack and show your—so she said, “Call for me and I’ll come out and get you. You can come up and practice your typing.” So I said, “Oh, okay.” So when the kids all go off to school, then I’d beat it up to Rockwell and go practice my typing. I told Glenda, I said, “Well, I think I’m ready to take my typing.” So she said, “Don’t feel bad if you don’t make it the first time. You can always try it and try it again.” So I said, “Okay.” She gave me confidence, and so I said, “Okay.” So I went down the first time.
BAYHYLLE
Where did you go then?
JAMES
For my typing?
BAYHYLLE
For your typing, uh-huh.
JAMES
There at the Employment Office. They would give it you right there. They’d give it right there in the Employment Office. So I did fail my first one, and the lady that was giving my test, she said, “Oh, Winnie, you’re just nervous. This happens, but we’ll set you up in a week. You come back.” I said, “Okay,” So I went back to Glenda and I told her, I said, “I failed.” And she said, “You come back and practice again and practice again.” So I did. I went back and practiced again and practiced again. So I went back, and the next time I went by in flying colors, you know. So the lady said, “Oh, Winnie, you passed.” I said, “Oh, great!” So within a week, a couple of weeks, they called me and said, “We want for you to come for an interview.”
BAYHYLLE
Who is “they”? Was it Rockwell that called?
JAMES
Rockwell, uh-huh, and they said, “You come in for an interview.” So I did. I went in for an interview and they hired me, and then when I went in, I went into a place which was engineering department, all men engineers, had no women, old men, because they were old—
BAYHYLLE
Been there a long time.
JAMES
Been there for a long time. Engineers. They said, “Oh, you’re going to be a secretary. And I thought, “Oh, my god.” I never had that secretary training. She said, “Oh, no. We call you secretaries, but all you have to do is get the mail,” because I had at least a hundred engineers. She said, “You just go and pick up the mail and give them to them, and if they need typing, they’ll bring it to you and you just type it.” At that time we were just now building Space Shuttle, so all we had to do was typing for the Space Shuttle, and whoever needed typing, they bring it to me and I would type it up for them.
BAYHYLLE
So what did they bring you? Was it on a Dictaphone or a tape or something you’d just type it from?
JAMES
No, it’s all handwritten. Those engineers, worst hand-writers, so I just tried the best I can. They would say that, “Just try the best you can.” So I would do that for them, and then they’d bring you back red lines, so I’d just have to do that.
BAYHYLLE
Do it over.
JAMES
But we had those old clunker typewriters, and then finally I think I was there maybe, like, two years and we got the electric one that was a lot better. Then I was there, like, another five years and they said, “Oh, we’re going to go to computer.” I said, “Oh, my god, computer.” So I thought, well, I’m going to go to adult school and take computer, so I went to Norwalk Adult School and went there and I finished. At least I could delete and you add whatever, what I have to. So it turned out they started and we only got—it was wing at the time. We only had one wing, and six of us secretaries had to share that. We only had, like, two hours on—
BAYHYLLE
That you could use it.
JAMES
Yeah.
BAYHYLLE
Two-hour blocks.
JAMES
Yeah, and so we were doing this Space Shuttle. We’ve got these big specs, you know. They change whatever they’re building. If they need to add something else, like, middle of the page, we had to type everything over again because you couldn’t—
BAYHYLLE
White it out or delete.
JAMES
Yeah, so they just had to—
BAYHYLLE
Oh, my gosh.
JAMES
So they finally, when I was there, ten, well, then they got all the engineers their own computers, so they did their own typing. They got behind in their what they call spec, just like a cookbook, you know, how you say add water, add [unclear], they would do the same thing on this spec. They would say, “Well, we’re going to do hydraulics, so we need to add rings,” O-rings or washers or give explanation to whoever built that Space Shuttle. So that’s what the engineers would do. Then if they got behind, they’d just come and tell me, “Winnie, just type it up and we’ll fix it.” But they knew computer. I didn’t.
BAYHYLLE
Right. But you did the bulk of it, and they would go in and just tweak it a little bit.
JAMES
By going and doing—adult school really helped me out.
BAYHYLLE
That’s good.
JAMES
Otherwise I would have been lost right from the start.
BAYHYLLE
You were there a long time then.
JAMES
Yeah. I went there fifteen—well, when I was there fifteen years, my supervisor—because I was what they called a group secretary. Then when I was fifteen years there, well, then my manager’s secretary retired, so they put me up into the manager’s secretary. So I was the manager’s secretary for my last five years. So I was there twenty years. I retired.
BAYHYLLE
Oh, my goodness.
JAMES
At twenty years.
BAYHYLLE
Were there lots of other Indian people there working at Rockwell?
JAMES
There were at that time when I first when in, but there were older Indians, so they retired by the time I got started. Like I said, everybody was getting tired of working here. I was so excited to be working because I was now getting back to the workforce, and they were ready to retired.
BAYHYLLE
Right, after raising your family, bringing your children along.
JAMES
Yeah, so a lot of them I knew had retired from there. Then finally after fifteen years, then we started getting new young engineers, where the old engineer would train them. Then once they retired, he would take over that position wherever, which was really good, and that’s why some of the young engineers, Indian engineers, came in.
BAYHYLLE
So Rockwell is in what city, Downey or—
JAMES
Downey.
BAYHYLLE
So where did you live during this time that you were working?
JAMES
I lived there in Norwalk.
BAYHYLLE
The whole time, or did you move around a little?
JAMES
No, we lived there full-time after we moved out of L.A. We lived in L.A. When I quit work when my husband was still working, we lived in L.A., but then he got hurt, and then he got a settlement, so we bought a home in Norwalk, and that’s where we were. We were there, like, twenty-one years or something like that.
BAYHYLLE
Were there other Indian families around where you lived in Norwalk and your community?
JAMES
Well, only my best friend, her and her husband lived there. But as far as any other neighbors, no.
BAYHYLLE
Not too many Indian people then around in that area. What kinds of things did you do? What was the community like here, the Native community, while you were working and raising your family?
JAMES
Well, in 1960, ’60 or ’61 or sometime, we formed a Native American Athletic Association, so we had both men’s and women’s division, because there was so much relocation people out there. So they formed a league, so we had our own league, our own Indian Leagues. So during the winter we had basketball there and had softball. So that was for both men and women. But I played for Rockwell for twenty years, so I was doing both Rockwell and the Indian League.
BAYHYLLE
And the AIAA.
JAMES
So Mary and I played a lot.
BAYHYLLE
A lot of basketball?
JAMES
Basketball, uh-huh, and softball. Yeah, she played basketball and softball. So Mary and I really knew each other long time, I mean since ’56 since I came.
BAYHYLLE
She was one of the first people you met there at the apartment, wasn’t she? Then you just continued your friendship throughout the years.
JAMES
Yeah. So once a year we go out and have our lunch or whatever we would have.
BAYHYLLE
So you were very active in athletics. Did your children play, involved in sports, too, as well, your daughter and your son?
JAMES
Oh, yeah, in high school. I mean, they both were athletic. My daughter was both basketball and softball, and my son was golf and basketball.
BAYHYLLE
So you got together, you and your friends, and you formed this AIAA.
JAMES
Yeah. Well, like, Randy and his wife’s sister, and it was quite a few of us that was from a relocation, and we found this church there in Los Angeles.
BAYHYLLE
What was it called?
JAMES
It was called Native American, but it was Native American—I can’t think of the name. It’s interdenomination. So that’s how we got started. Randy had a man team and we had our own women’s team, and we played independently for Indian League. Then when we formed our Indian League, then we just poured out of there, we just stuck with the Indian League.
BAYHYLLE
Was this Randy Edmunds you’re talking about, that had the men’s team, organized the men’s team?
JAMES
He is a number-one pitcher for Los Angeles.
BAYHYLLE
Really?
JAMES
Uh-huh, and he was number-one football player for Riverside Indian School in Oklahoma. He just got the Hall of Fame back there.
BAYHYLLE
Oh, my goodness.
JAMES
Yeah.
BAYHYLLE
You mentioned a church then that you used to go to. Would they sponsor your team or give you a place to practice, or what was the importance of the church?
JAMES
No, the only thing that they would require for us, all of us that attended church there, at least we would attend at least twice a month, so we had to make sure that—I don’t know if they even paid us league fee or anything, but we did play in a city league. That’s how we got started.
BAYHYLLE
We’re meeting today here in the American Indian Church. Is this a Methodist church—
JAMES
Yeah.
BAYHYLLE
—here we are in Anaheim? You seem to have a strong affiliation or association with church here in Los Angeles. Tell me about that.
JAMES
Well, when we were back home, my dad was Methodist, so he was really a strict Methodist with us four kids, you know, and I’ve grown up in the United Methodist Church. That’s what I really missed when I came out here, because I had no Native American—
BAYHYLLE
Ministry of any sort.
JAMES
You’re not Methodist. There were Baptist, because that’s where I started going. I went to the Baptist Church because a lot of my friends were going there.
BAYHYLLE
That was Mary’s church, wasn’t it?
JAMES
Yeah, and then I started going to Indian revival because a lot of my friends was going there. How I found this church was that my girlfriend worked with me in Downey, and she was getting married, so she sent me an invitation saying that she’s getting married at the Norwalk Church, and that’s where we were, in Norwalk Church, United Methodist Church. So she was getting married there, so I said, “Oh, I didn’t know we had a Native American church there.” It’s because I’m always going west, not east, and the church was right there on the corner of Norwalk Boulevard and [unclear] 5 Freeway.
BAYHYLLE
Oh, my gosh.
JAMES
And it was that close to me. I only lived probably a couple of miles down the road.
BAYHYLLE
Your home, right.
JAMES
So I went there for the wedding and I thought, how does she know Native American church here? And when I walked in, there was an Indian minister, and then there were people that I knew from different areas there. I only see them once in a great while, and they were there. I said, “Do you know Sharon?” And they said, “No, we go to church here.” I said, “Really?” And they said, “Yeah, this is a Native American church and that’s our pastor.” And I said, “Oh, my god, what time is service?” So I quit going to Indian revival. Then I started going to Norwalk because it was a Native American church. So we moved out of Norwalk, I think ’94, and they gave us this church.
BAYHYLLE
Here in Anaheim then for your services.
JAMES
Because we always wanted a church, Native American. This is the only Native American United Methodist Church in our church conference.
BAYHYLLE
Really?
JAMES
Uh-huh.
BAYHYLLE
My goodness. In your hometown, then, where you grew up, is it the predominant, where everyone worships, the Indian people?
JAMES
Yeah, back there in Oklahoma it’s Methodist all the way, yeah.
BAYHYLLE
So you found a church near your home, and it was someplace that looked like you wanted to go to. Tell me about your work there in the church. What kind of things do you do there for them, or here now, I guess?
JAMES
Well, when I first started at Norwalk, I really didn’t belong to Norwalk Church because my membership was still back in Oklahoma. The pastor there, he told me, he said, “Winnie, you need to move your membership up here because then that way you can vote, you can have a say-so in the church,” and whatever. He said, “If you ever decide to move back to Oklahoma, you can always take it back with you.” I said, “Really? And so he said, “Yeah.” So I said, “Okay.” So he wrote and got my membership, moved it up there to Norwalk, and then I started there. Then I told him, I said, “Little did I know you was going to put me work if I become a member of the Methodist.” So that first year I was there I probably was a women’s president, which we called United Methodist Women [UMW], and that’s a big function for all over. Then next time I was church secretary or I was the UMW secretary. So I just had so much positions, even when we moved here, and I told my pastor, I said, “You know, I’m really getting burned out because I’m just working too much, trying to take on too much.” So I had to delegate some of my stuff to—
BAYHYLLE
Other people.
JAMES
To other people, yeah. So now here I do more visiting. I love to send out cards, and I do a lot of other footwork. Then I come here on Tuesdays and I help count money because the lady that was counting money, she’s ill, so I come in to count the money and go deposit.
BAYHYLLE
Do some of the church business.
JAMES
And deal with GMW. I’m in the UMW, but I don’t have an office because I delegated everything out to do. [laughter]
BAYHYLLE
That was a smart thing to do. What was it like for your children growing up here in Los Angeles?
JAMES
I think they really liked it, because I remember my daughter talks about it a lot. She says, “My mom and dad—.” Well, she says, “My mom,” anyway, “comes to relocation, so they wanted a better life for us.” So they’ve been really good, really good. They’ve been really good for me.
BAYHYLLE
They had a good experience, then, here in California and Los Angeles. It was a good experience in school, because they went to the same school, you said.
JAMES
So now my daughter is a counselor for [unclear] ville Community College. My son is the youngest, and he’s a computer technician.
BAYHYLLE
Oh, that’s good. Does he like that?
JAMES
So they both have a job.
BAYHYLLE
Good jobs.
JAMES
I told them when I got my divorce, I said I don’t want to depend on them. I want to live somewhere where I can handle myself. I do pretty well, you know. I rent a mobile home two miles down, and then which I get my retirement from Rockwell. Then I get my Social Security. Then just two years of retirement, I just got bored again staying at home, so I told my daughter, I said, “I want to do something, but I don’t want to sit behind a desk. I did that for twenty years. I want something that I can get out and really enjoy myself.” So I got into what they call Staff Pro, which is security, and they send you out and you do security work. I really didn’t like it that much, but it was right when they have concerts. You go and you make sure everybody’s doing—or not getting into fights or doing wrong things. So I worked with them probably three months, and they sent me to Anaheim Convention Center for one program. They were moving out. The Convention Center people move in, and you have a move-in time and they have a move-out time. So they sent me there, and I just happened to see this lady walking in front of the arena of Anaheim. So I went out there and I told her, I said, “Do you work only for Anaheim?” She said, “Yes, Winnie. I see nobody’s checked on you to give you a break or anything.” I said, “No, nobody’s come and checked on me.” She said, “When I get ready for a break—,” with them, with Anaheim people, they have to have somebody come and they give them a twenty-minute break. So they have a break room that they go out. So she said, “When I go out, I want you to go with me. I’ll show you where the Employment Office is.” [laughs]
BAYHYLLE
That’s great, good.
JAMES
So she took me up, and I went to the Employment Office and I got my application. Then I sat down and had a break with her, and then we came back down. So I told Gloria—her name is Gloria—so I told Gloria, I said, “Oh, I want to come in and put in my application tomorrow.” She said, “Yeah, it’s good.” At that time I’d been there ten years, so at that time we started that was, like, I want to say, nine dollars an hour and twenty hours a week. Then you have to stand a lot, but like I say, every hour and a half you get a twenty-minute break, and it goes fast. We work six days a week—six hours a day, yeah. So I’m a morning person, so that’s morning, so usually either give me 6:45 and I’m off at 12:00. I’m free for the afternoon. Then sometimes they give me afternoon. I go in at 12:30, you work to 5:00, so I’m free in the morning. But I really don’t like that. It breaks up my day when I have to go in the afternoon. I’m a morning person, so I always like to go in the morning. Now we get eleven dollars an hour. With my pension and my Social Security, and then I have those paychecks coming in, at least, in between, because at first when I quit work, my pension was up the front, like the first, and then my Social Security came the fourth Wednesday of the month. I had nothing in here.
BAYHYLLE
Oh, my goodness. That was a long stretch.
JAMES
Oh, my god. Now it—
BAYHYLLE
It’s evened out a little more.
JAMES
It evens out. So I really enjoy working, because, like I said, I like to talk to people, so that’s all we do. We’re security, but we don’t have—not really. We’re more like fire watch, make sure everybody goes to their classes, wherever they have to go, and the restrooms, and just advise.
BAYHYLLE
That’s great that’s working out for you really well.
JAMES
Oh, it really is.
BAYHYLLE
You’ve been here a long time and you know a lot of people in the community and you knew a lot of people that came out of relocation. I’m wondering, what’s sort of your overall feeling of the relocation, the people that came out, the experiences that they had? I know not everybody had a good time or a good experience, some more than others, and some had really good, exceptional experiences. What would you say is the overall—in your opinion, sort of the overall experience of the relocation people now?
JAMES
For me, like I was telling my church secretary, I said if it weren’t for the relocation, I would have never got out of Oklahoma, because we lived so far back in the country that we had no ways to even get to Ada either.
BAYHYLLE
Right. On a regular basis.
JAMES
On a regular basis.
BAYHYLLE
And that’s where the jobs were, probably, what jobs there were.
JAMES
Yeah, uh-huh, and you couldn’t get a job up there. But now all of our agencies are there in Ada, Oklahoma, so when you go back, everything is right there.
BAYHYLLE
Yeah, so it looks like there was opportunity there, but when you were living there—
JAMES
No, it was nothing there for us at all. There was no way you could get any jobs, unless you went into Ada, because Stonewall was a small town. It really didn’t have no jobs. Even, like, the high school, those positions were taken, and you couldn’t get it unless somebody retired.
BAYHYLLE
What do you think your life would have been like if you hadn’t come out on relocation? What do you think would have happened to you?
JAMES
I see so much people my age back there that never came out of there. It just really, you know, [unclear]. It’s so difficult for them, you know, and there’s nothing to do. If you do, then you’ve got quite a ways to go, and then when you get to be elder, you can’t do that, because you’re not able to drive or maybe you don’t have a car. You have to depend on somebody. I just see them that—I always thank god that I did get out of there, you know, that I’m able to get out and do things that I want to do.
BAYHYLLE
Live the kind of life you want to live.
JAMES
Yeah, uh-huh.
BAYHYLLE
Well, you came out and you had a little more opportunity in that your sister was already here.
JAMES
Yeah.
BAYHYLLE
So what do you think it would have been like if she hadn’t been here, if you had come out on your own?
JAMES
I think I probably would have made it because I’m not the type that—and she is the type, she will not speak up for herself or she will not delegate like I, because I went through public school. I went to a government school, that I see that they didn’t really bloom out either [unclear]. But when I came in, I felt like, oh, my god, they’re just—I want to say lazy, but they weren’t lazy. They weren’t that type of people I was.
BAYHYLLE
Just not motivated as much as you were.
JAMES
Yeah, they weren’t motivated at all. I used to kind of get disgusted because I’d think, why can’t they go and do things?
BAYHYLLE
Right, but they just, for some reason, don’t know to do it or don’t know how to do it.
JAMES
If they want to do it, I don’t know. I really don’t know. But now you can go back there and the kids are so athletic, you just can’t keep up with them. But at that time, we didn’t have that activity.
BAYHYLLE
That’s right. That’s right. It was a different world then, too, as well. You talked a little bit about the places that you worked. You didn’t work at a lot of places. You only had maybe three or four different places that you worked your entire life, and throughout that period there weren’t a lot of Native people that you worked with, but you had a lot of Native friends and the large Native community that you made friends with as well. So you were active in sports through the Athletic Association. You were active in your church.
JAMES
And I was active in Rockwell.
BAYHYLLE
Tell me a little bit about sort of the community. We have just a few more minutes here and then we can sort of cut it short, but tell me a little bit about the Indian community that was here or that developed as you lived here as well, because you lived here in quite a span. There was a lot going on in this community. There were a lot of people that had come out on relocation. Then there were a lot of people that came here from the service. There were a lot of people that came here to go to school because they started the Indian programs, Indian Studies programs. There were a lot of people that came out here just looking for work as well. What was the community like?
JAMES
The community was really great when all the relocation people out here, and, like I said, there were a lot of service guys, because we knew some of those people that were in service because we would invite them to come, and maybe they didn’t have a place to stay in L.A. when we lived there. So we’d say, “Okay, you can come over and spend the night with us or the weekend with us. You can do your activities. You want to do activities with that, that’s fine.” But that’s how we treated our Indian people that was in the service, and then we let them know Baptist Church. They could go to church down there. But the guys that got out of the service, the ones that stayed we knew pretty well, but most of them went back home, and all the relocation people, they had their family, and it was so expensive out here, they decided to move home. Later on, as life went on, within our elderly people that were older, and then they retired and all moved back home, wherever they were from.
BAYHYLLE
So what I’m hearing is that there was this transition. A lot of people would come out here and live a life or have an experience, and then if it worked out fine, if it didn’t, then they would go back home.
JAMES
They would move back, yeah.
BAYHYLLE
But you didn’t have that option, did you?
JAMES
No, I didn’t have that option.
BAYHYLLE
Really you didn’t have much family there or you don’t have [unclear].
JAMES
I really didn’t want to go back there.
BAYHYLLE
You didn’t want to go back anyway, so that was not even option you considered.
JAMES
Yeah, because my kids grew up out here, so I said, “No, my kids are out here.” I thought about, I said, well, if I got sick, they would probably have to travel back. I have no one back there anyway, except for my cousins and whatnot, but then I won’t depend on them. Then when I started getting my grandkids, I said, “No way am I moving.” They wouldn’t let me move anyway, you know. [laughs] It was my kids at first. Now it’s my grandkids. Just like last night, my son took me and his wife out for Mother’s Day because they were going to Las Vegas. They’re bowlers.
BAYHYLLE
So they’re really active.
JAMES
My youngest granddaughter, she is twenty-one. No, she is twenty. So I take her to school every Tuesday and Thursday morning, and she had just called me. She said, “Grandma, can you come and pick me—?” [interruption]
BAYHYLLE
Okay, just a couple of more questions here, Winnie, in this session, if that’s okay with you. We talked a lot about the people that came out on relocation and the friends that you made here in town, and then your church activities. You met more people and made other friends, and you sort of created a community here for yourselves. Tell me about any time that you met any of the local Indian people here in town, California Indians. Did you have many California Indians out here?
JAMES
Oh, yeah. We see a lot of the California Indians because they have their powwows, their own powwows. And my daughter is a dancer, my youngest daughter here. My granddaughter dances. [interruption]
BAYHYLLE
So you did meet some of the California Indians here at some of their activities, is that right?
JAMES
Oh, yeah, uh-huh.
BAYHYLLE
What was that about? What kinds of things did you learn from them, or do you have any California Indians that are your friends or that you know?
JAMES
I played softball against them on the reservations, so we’ve met and made friends in that direction. Now I go to Rincon. That’s an Indian reservation where they have their Indian Clinic, and I have good insurance, because Boeing pays for my insurance. But sometimes the things are more expensive then. My dentures, my insurance was going to cost me a lot, so I went back home to Ada, Oklahoma, to have my teeth all pulled, and they pulled them all. I came back, and then I went to my own dentist and I asked him how much it would cost me for my dentures. Oh, it’s still going to cost me a lot. So I called Rincon and asked them, because it’s an Indian—oh, I forget what tribe they are out there.
BAYHYLLE
Serranos or Luiseños? I can’t remember now. I think they’re Serranos, Maybe Pala. No, Pala has their own [unclear].
JAMES
Pala has their own reservation.
BAYHYLLE
I think Serranos.
JAMES
I went out there. I called them and I said, “How much would you charge for a set of dentures.” And she says, “Oh, $500.” My daughter said, “Mom, go. I’ll pay for them.”
BAYHYLLE
Oh, my gosh. That was [unclear] reduction.
JAMES
So we went out there—yeah, because it was more than that with my own insurance. I said, “Oh, my god. I can’t believe this.” Then, like, Pala too. Some of my best friends lived out there, has retired now, out of Pala.
BAYHYLLE
Pala Indian Reservation.
JAMES
Uh-huh.
BAYHYLLE
So that’s interesting that they let you come down and use the clinic.
JAMES
Only way you can do that is you have to have your I.D. card from your tribal, and you can go down there and you can do it. But they only take certain ones. They take their people first, and then if they have any other left out, then you can—
BAYHYLLE
Then they can fit you in. I see. Those are really all the things I have at this point. Winnie, I’m going to turn the machine off now. [End of May 16, 2011 interview]

1.2. SESSION TWO
JUNE 13, 2011

BAYHYLLE
It’s Monday, June 13, 2011. I am in Anaheim [California] speaking with Winnie James. Winnie, last time we spoke, several questions came to me after I was listening to our interview that we had last month, I guess it was. Didn’t I see you in May or earlier part of June? I wanted to ask a few questions, first of all, about your experience playing ball, and I guess you helped start the Indian Athletic Association, too, here in town back in the early part of the sixties. Is that correct?
JAMES
No, I was just a participant. Cecil [unclear] was a Creek person. He was Creek, and he and I can’t remember who else started the program. I don’t know if he came out on relocation or not. But how we got started, Mary and I and Randy’s wife, was that we attended a church downtown L.A. I don’t know how in the world we got—I guess maybe just word of mouth. I think maybe because they had potluck every Sunday and we needed hot food, we’d all end up there on Sundays. We went to the service. Then they are the one that—there were so many of us going there, that they said, “Well, why don’t we form a team, basketball team.” So we formed our league and formed our team, and we played in the city league.
BAYHYLLE
City of Los Angeles?
JAMES
Yeah, City of Los Angeles. We played in those leagues for I don’t know how long, and then finally they started the Athletic Association up, and then we dropped out of the city league and started playing with the Indian League. That was, like, probably in 1960, because my daughter was born in 1960, or maybe ’61. But we had different ones to coach us, which was, like, Randy and his wife. Then Randy got his men’s team, and my husband played with them. It was just husbands and wives would get together and play, formed our team. We were number one for a long time, till the younger groups started coming in. So then we had—oh, we must have had about—I think we had about eight or ten women’s teams in our league, but the men’s division really had a lot. They had, like, an A Division, because some of the guys was really good. They had A, B, and C Divisions, so they took most of the gym. So we would play in between men’s games. If they played at six, then we played at seven, and then they would have on down, but we only played the one game. We would have it Friday and Saturday nights for game time.
BAYHYLLE
So there was a core group, then, of you, you and Mary, you said, and Randy’s wife. Her name was Wanda, right?
JAMES
Wanda, uh-huh.
BAYHYLLE
And a number of other women. So you already knew how to play ball when you started?
JAMES
We played, yeah.
BAYHYLLE
Where did you learn how to play the different ball games that you do? You played basketball. You played softball. Where did you learn how to do that?
JAMES
I learned at my grade school, elementary school. I was a tomboy because I was the youngest of my two brothers and my sister, and my cousins, too. I had, like, three cousins, boys, so we’d get out there in my aunt’s yard and we’d play. Like it or not, they’d make me get out there. So I got to learn to like it, and then when I went to elementary school, then I started playing there, and I’ve always played all through elementary up to high school. In high school, my freshman year I didn’t play. I went to Stonewall for my freshman year. But then I had lost my dad. No, I didn’t, either. I lost him when I was a junior. So freshman year, I was shy, and I knew those basketball players was really good because I had watched them play before.
BAYHYLLE
The women basketball players.
JAMES
The girls’ team, yeah. So I didn’t play that first year. Then my brother got moved somewhere else, so we were living with him. Then my dad, he got hurt in my sophomore year, I think, and then we moved in with my brother. Then he had to move somewhere else, so we moved with him and I went to another school. I thought, “Oh, there’s not that many girls here playing, so I’m going to play,” and I was dying to play when I was at Stonewall, but I was too—I didn’t think I was good enough because I seen those girls play. So when I went to Fitzhugh, I played, and then we turned around and played Stonewall. He said, “Look at you. They told me from eighth grade you were going to come, and you didn’t even play.” I said, “No.” So then I did play at Fitzhugh for the one year, and I stayed there my sophomore and junior year. But my brother had already moved from there, and he had to go quite a ways. I asked my Home Ec[onomics] teacher—her husband was the superintendent of the school. I told her that, “I’m going to have to move because my brother is moving. I have no place to stay.” And she said, “I’ll talk to your brother. You stay with me until you finish your sophomore year and your junior year. You can just help me.” At that time, I think, he, my superintendent, was sick or something and she needed help. So I stayed there and helped her with—I didn’t have to pay anything, so I just helped her clean house and be around the school with her, you know. I stayed there and finished my junior year, and my senior year I had my brother to send me off to Chilocco, and I went that one year and went to school there. 0:06:50.8
BAYHYLLE
So you learned how to play sports just sort of on your own in high school. [End of recording]
Date: 2013-12-06