Contents
1. Transcript
1.1. Session 1 ( January 12, 2007)
-
Foster
- OK. Good afternoon. It's December 7, 2007, and we're at the home of William
Elkins to do an oral history for the Second Baptist UCLA Project. Bill, will
you give me your full name and date of birth to begin, please?
-
Elkins
- William Elkins. Born January 25, 1920.
-
Foster
- OK. And, as I explained to you, this is an oral history, so we are going to do
from soup to nuts. And so I would like you to kind of think about your
childhood. You were born in Arkansas. Would you tell us your hometown and where
you were born and --
-
Elkins
- I was born in a little town called Forest City, Arkansas. My parents were
divorced when I was 11 and I came to California with my mother [Virginia Nesbit
Elkins] and sister [Jenilla Curry] to join my mother's family, who had begun to
migrate here, I guess, four or five years prior to 1931.
-
Foster
- Thirty-one?
-
Elkins
- Yeah.
-
Foster
- OK. Let's go back to Forest City. What are your remembrances of Forest City,
and where is it located in Arkansas? Is it Southern Arkansas? Central Arkansas?
-
Elkins
- Do you know, I think it's -- you have to say southern Arkansas. Had a very
pleasant childhood. My father [William Elkins, Sr.] ran a very successful
cleaning and pressing business.
-
Foster
- OK.
-
Elkins
- And I guess you would have to characterize my family as middle class. We lived
well. I did not attend the public schools, attended a school that was run by
the Catholic Church. My father was very close to the bishop, whose name I don’t
recall, of that area, and we attended --
-
Foster
- The Roman parochial school?
-
Elkins
- Right. Came to California, of course, and reunited with my, as I indicated, my
mother's --
-
Foster
- Family.
-
Elkins
- -- family.
-
Foster
- So your father was rather prosperous and rather successful. Did he have sibs
[siblings], brothers and sisters, aunts and uncles, that you remember kind of
being instrumental in your life?
-
Elkins
- An aunt, who we were very close to. Loved her dearly. Named Mary Ellis.
-
Foster
- An Elkins or a Nesbit?
-
Elkins
- Elkins.
-
Foster
- OK. Was she your father's sister or --
-
Elkins
- My father's sister. And no brothers. That I know, there were no brothers.
-
Foster
- OK. Do you remember any of your other aunts, but you just remember Mary Ellis?
-
Elkins
- Along with Mary Ellis there was another aunt who lived in Memphis, Tennessee,
who frequently visited the little town of Forest City, Arkansas. In retrospect,
of course, I was too young to have any real sense of the dynamics of what was
going on between African Americans and whites, but in retrospect, it was a
nice, little town devoid of many of the problems that southern cities had
between African Americans and white people. I don’t recall the population of
Forest City -- probably 20,000. 15 - 20,000.
-
Foster
- What percentage were African Americans approximately? Just a --
-
Elkins
- Probably a good 30 or 40 percent.
-
Foster
- OK. It wasn't one-to-one, but blacks were a plurality in the community.
-
Elkins
- Correct.
-
Foster
- OK. Now, your father being close to the Roman Catholic bishop now, you are a
Baptist and I assume a lifelong --
-
Elkins
- We were Baptists. We belonged to the largest Baptist church in Forest City, and
I remember some experiences there with Sunday School and group development.
-
Foster
- So, do you remember who your pastor was when you were in Forest City?
-
Elkins
- No.
-
Foster
- But BYPU [Baptist Youth Prayer Union] and Sunday school and those things were
very important. Now, what about your mother's family before they departed. They
are Nesbit's, right?
-
Elkins
- Correct.
-
Foster
- OK. So, what --
-
Elkins
- My mother was the last one left in Forest City. All of her sisters and brothers
had migrated to Los Angeles, so when she and my father were divorced, it was an
automatic move.
-
Foster
- So, you were a boy of 11. You had gone to Roman schools all of your life. And
then how did you find your way to Southern California? Did you guys take the
train?
-
Elkins
- No. We came back by train.
-
Foster
- You came by train. And do you have any remembrances of that train?
-
Elkins
- Well, as I remember, it was two nights, two days. It was a long --
-
Foster
- A long trip.
-
Elkins
- Not an unpleasant one, but a long trip. And we had no problems whatsoever.
-
Foster
- So, here you guys are. Your mother is single with, two children, right?
-
Elkins
- Correct.
-
Foster
- OK. So where did you guys located in the Los Angeles area?
-
Elkins
- Her family, my grandfather [William Nesbit], had bought the largest home in --
1206 East 25th Street in Los Angeles. A six-bedroom --
-
Foster
- Home.
-
Elkins
- -- home.
-
Foster
- OK.
-
Elkins
- And hell, there were -- let me see. There were four families living there. We
slept anywhere except in the kitchen, but it was a very, very pleasant
experience.
-
Foster
- So, your grandfather Nesbit had owned a home.
-
Elkins
- My grandfather was one of the first African Americans to receive a Carpenter's
license in Los Angeles. He was a very successful home builder. And, when we
were growing up, had a lot of cousins. We worked with him during the summer.
And earned some money building homes.
-
Foster
- So, your grandfather, Mr. Nesbit, what was his first name?
-
Elkins
- Will.
-
Foster
- Will Nesbit was very instrumental because he was here. There was a home for you
and your mother and sister to come to. And so talk about your aunts and uncles.
You said that your mother was the last to come out here.
-
Elkins
- There were six sisters [Ann Phillips, Virginia Mackey, May Harris, Janette
Ford, and Winifred Harris]. My mother and, if I recall correctly, was the third
sister. And there were three brothers. So there was a total of --
-
Foster
- Of nine. Nine, OK.
-
Elkins
- -- nine. And I remember shortly after relocating a couple of the brothers --
one went to Chicago and one went to St. Louis, Missouri, and one stayed and
worked with my grandfather as a carpenter.
-
Foster
- As a carpenter, OK. So, the Nesbits were a large, extended family. And so where
on 25th Street were you actually located?
-
Elkins
- On the 1200 block. I often make reference to when we were growing up, it was an
all-black community. It was a Chinese family, a Japanese family and an Italian
family in the block, in the 1200 block of East 25th Street. We had a very
pleasant experience.
-
Foster
- So you were one block east of Central Avenue, then?
-
Elkins
- You got it.
-
Foster
- OK. So 25th and Central.
-
Elkins
- Second house east of Naomi Avenue.
-
Foster
- OK. Does the house still stand?
-
Elkins
- It does indeed.
-
Foster
- OK. So that's --
-
Elkins
- We sold it, I guess, about 10, 12 years ago, after all of the sisters --
-
Foster
- Had passed away.
-
Elkins
- -- had passed away.
-
Foster
- So you lived 1200 block, 25th Street. So 25th and Naomi. So where did you then
go to grammar school?
-
Elkins
- I went to elementary school on 20th Street.
-
Foster
- 20th Street. Which is right there.
-
Elkins
- Down Lafayette and then Jefferson.
-
Foster
- And then Jeff. But I want to come back to the Nesbit family. So your cousin,
Charlie [Nesbit], is here, and you guys are about a couple of months apart?
-
Elkins
- No more than that.
-
Foster
- OK.
-
Elkins
- And then Charlie, we came to Los Angeles in '33. Charlie came not a year later.
-
Foster
- OK. OK. OK.
-
Elkins
- To join the family.
-
Foster
- So all of the Nesbits. Did your mother eventually kind of rent a place on her
home, or did she stay with her father?
-
Elkins
- For years, all in the same home. And, when I was a senior at Jeff, [Jefferson
High School] there was a four-room apartment right on the corner and my mother
and one of her sisters decided to rent the apartment in that facility.
-
Foster
- But that was just basically a half block away. So everybody --
-
Elkins
- No. No. It was right next to 1206 East 25th Street. The apartment building was
on the corner of Naomi and 25th Street. And 1206 was immediately east of the
apartment building. So, that was no big thing. So we finally --
-
Foster
- So describe this Nesbit household. So you had a set of grandparents and their
children and then their grandchildren. So how many of you collectively -- how
many collectively Nesbits --
-
Elkins
- Let me reiterate. There were four families living at 1206 East 25th Street.
-
Foster
- OK. OK.
-
Elkins
- Literally.
-
Foster
- Literally. OK.
-
Elkins
- 1206 East 25th Street is, as I indicated, the largest home in the block with
the largest lot. It was huge.
-
Foster
- Was it a lot and a half?
-
Elkins
- Easily.
-
Foster
- OK.
-
Elkins
- And we had a very pleasant home experience.
-
Foster
- So the cousins all got mentored together. So if one did something --
-
Elkins
- Correct. They were more like brothers and sisters, not first cousins.
-
Foster
- OK. So kind of describe that experience. So you and Charlie and the rest -- so
--
-
Elkins
- Well, there were me and Charlie, James, Tamblyn, and then Virginia came, the
daughter of another one. Let me see, there were me and my sister, Charlie --
-
Foster
- So you and your sister were the Elkins.
-
Elkins
- Yes. And then there were the Nesbits and the Harris' and the Phillips.
-
Foster
- OK. So there were four families.
-
Elkins
- Yes.
-
Foster
- And so in terms of your schooling and mentoring, your aunts and uncles were
just as instrumental as your mother, then, in terms of --
-
Elkins
- It was the most cohesive family you could imagine. As I said, a very, very
pleasant experience, and we took care of one another.
-
Foster
- So what were the expectations? Did you guys have a vegetable garden or chickens
or was it just --
-
Elkins
- No. As I recall, one of the aunts raised some chickens, but no vegetable
garden. You know, it was a different world then. When I was in high school, I
worked two hours a day at the market on Cooper Avenue and 25th Street. And, my
grandfather leased the vegetable operation in the market and we would travel to
Seventh, Eighth and Central to the big market there --
-
Foster
- To the produce market?
-
Elkins
- -- two or three times a week to pick up vegetables. First on the streetcar and
then my grandfather finally bought a car. So we used the car. That was a
pleasant experience. I remember grapes being three pounds for a dime compared
to what they are now.
-
Foster
- So your mom came right as the Depression was hitting full force. There --
-
Elkins
- My mother worked as a domestic. Six dollars a week. And a 75-cents a week
streetcar pass.
-
Foster
- But for you guys growing up, the Depression, because there were five families
including your grandparents, didn't impact you much because I assume collective
meals at five or six o'clock at night, shared chores --
-
Elkins
- When I look back on it, we were never poor. This was during the heart of the
Depression. And we lived an extremely good life.
-
Foster
- Did you realize it at the time, or in retrospect you kind of looked back and
kind of said --
-
Elkins
- No, in retrospect, because I remember, I used to travel to Sears Roebuck at the
beginning of the school year to pick up two pair of corduroy pants. And I had a
jacket and some wool trousers, two pair of corduroy pants, a couple of pair of
jeans and a number of shirts. That was my wardrobe.
-
Foster
- And you had to keep it clean?
-
Elkins
- Absolutely. Absolutely. I relayed back and the people thought that my family
had money. We did not, because the boys and the girls were so clean and then
war -- I'd press those corduroy pants and, as I said, many of them thought the
Nesbits, the Elkins, the Harris' had money. We didn't.
-
Foster
- Now, you mention 25th Street. 25th and Central, was that where Mr. Hawkins had
his pharmacy, not Gus but Gus' brother? Was there a Hawkins pharmacy or --
-
Elkins
- There was a building immediately south of the pharmacist there on the corner of
25th and there was a Dr. Robinson and, hell, there weren't but maybe four black
doctors in Los Angeles then.
-
Foster
- Because there was a Smith Pharmacy, but that was on 12th Street, and then it
moved all the way down to Jefferson. But didn't Gus' brother have an office
near 25th Street?
-
Elkins
- No, he was in a building in the 41 or 4200 block of Central Avenue.
-
Foster
- Further down on Central Avenue. But let's go back. So you come in 31 and here
you are going to 20th Street. What kind of boys and girls did you meet as a
fifth and sixth grader at 20th Street? And what was that --
-
Elkins
- It was a totally integrated school setting. All the way from Lafayette -- there
was a large number of Hispanics at Lafayette. At Jefferson High School, the
student body, as I recall, was about 65 percent black. The rest, Anglo, white,
and not that many Hispanics.
-
Foster
- OK. Many people, not your contemporaries, but people my age or younger, or
people non-native to Los Angeles, think of the Central Avenue corridor in the
20s and 30s as being all black and you are kind of disabusing this picture in
terms of describing your block on 25th Street, your experience at 20th Street,
your experience at Lafayette and your experience at Jeff. Do you want to
elaborate on that? People got along, according to you, but how did they get
along? I mean, there weren't large numbers of whites or large numbers of
Mexicans or large numbers of Germans, but how did things operate?
-
Elkins
- I don’t recall a single incident of racial disruption between blacks, whites,
Hispanics, and Asians. A large number of Asians --
-
Foster
- Japanese Americans or Chinese?
-
Elkins
- No, Japanese. As a matter of fact, one of my best friends was Japanese. Hishamo
Nishumo. I remember that name, and how distressed we were when we moved.
-
Foster
- Did Hishamo go to Jeff with you?
-
Elkins
- Yeah.
-
Foster
- OK. He went to Jeff.
-
Elkins
- And he came back years later when I was at UCLA and he joined us then. But to
answer, you know, what kind of relationships, absolutely cordial relationships.
As I say, I cannot recall one single incident involving any kind of disruptive
behavior or any comment between blacks and whites or any other people for that
matter.
-
Foster
- Did you have black teachers either at 20th Street or at Lafayette or at Jeff?
-
Elkins
- There were two black teachers. There were none at Lafayette. And certainly none
at the elementary school. And there were two black teachers at Jefferson, a man
who was the head of the music department, who was a genius, really.
-
Foster
- Who was that?
-
Elkins
- What the hell was his name? I'll think of it in a minute.
-
Foster
- Just blurt it out when it comes to you.
-
Elkins
- Was instrumental in me getting a scholarship to UCLA. As I indicated, I grew up
in the 2nd Baptist Church and got a scholarship from Independence --
-
Foster
- We'll want to come back --
-
Elkins
- -- and it was passed on by Clayton Russell. And it was such an embarrassment to
my church that they started a scholarship.
-
Foster
- Because you and Albert McNeal both received --
-
Elkins
- Albert went to [inaudible] and I went to Jeff.
-
Foster
- And you went to Jeff.
-
Elkins
- And we got --
-
Foster
- The two scholarships.
-
Elkins
- -- the two scholarships from Independence.
-
Foster
- I want to come back to Lafayette, though. Did you meet Tom when you were at
Lafayette? Bradley?
-
Elkins
- Yes.
-
Foster
- OK. So you were both at --
-
Elkins
- We go back 90 years.
-
Foster
- OK. Well, not quite 90, but you guys met when you were both students at
Lafayette and one went to Jeff and the other went to Poly.
-
Elkins
- You got it.
-
Foster
- Talk about Central Avenue a little bit before we get to 2nd or kind of go to
those things.
-
Elkins
- Well, you know, Central was -- there were a lot of black businesses on Central
Avenue. There were several theaters. The Lincoln Theater. One of the big things
was we went to the matinee at Lincoln.
-
Foster
- On Saturdays or on Sundays?
-
Elkins
- On Sundays.
-
Foster
- On Sundays.
-
Elkins
- Went to the matinee at the Garrity Theater on Saturday. A nickel.
-
Foster
- OK. So your mother let you go to the show on Sunday. OK.
-
Elkins
- Yeah. They were sensible people.
-
Foster
- So not overly strict.
-
Elkins
- The aunts and also very, very sensible. I remember it was 10 cents for students
at Lincoln and 25 cents for adults. And if you were over 16, you had to pay 25
cents. So I'm 17 and still paying the 10 cents. But I was tall, so I would
never forget this experience if I live to be 100. So this Sunday I went with my
10 cents ticket and the man at the door said, son, I've been letting you slide
for over a year, but you're going to have to start paying 25 cents. Broke my
heart.
-
Foster
- So the Lincoln Theater was a big part of Central Avenue. The Garrity. So those
were kind of instrumental. Did you --
-
Elkins
- And the Rosebud [Theater] and I don’t remember if there was a 7-11. The Lincoln
was big in our lives, but when black shows, when they came, black bands, and
other shows, when they came to Los Angeles, Lincoln Theater was where they
appeared.
-
Foster
- OK. So I'm going to take you, not so much away from Central Avenue, but I'm
going to mention a name. S. P. Johnson. And I knew that he was chair of the
trustee board at Second Baptist and also sponsored sports teams and what have
you. Do you have any recollections of S.P.?
-
Elkins
- How could I not have?
-
Foster
- Well, I just kind of want to --
-
Elkins
- He was almost like a father to me. And, we had him -- the mortuary purchased
every other year, we had a basketball team and the uniforms and S.P. purchased
--
-
Foster
- The uniforms?
-
Elkins
- -- the uniforms for our basketball team. And sponsored picnics, Christmas
parties, for the young kids of Second Baptist Church.
-
Foster
- So, S.P. was a real benefactor for --
-
Elkins
- He was a much-beloved senior member of Second Baptist, and as I said, a father
figure to many of us who didn't have fathers. We loved him dearly.
-
Foster
- Because he was the Sunday School superintendent or just because of all of the
things he did?
-
Elkins
- It was for many things for the young people. Very sensitive and very
accommodating and was a benefactor for so much of what went on at 2nd Baptist
Church.
-
Foster
- A number of people have talked and I've, in another context, I've asked you
about the Unity picnics. Do you remember the Unity picnics and where they held?
Were they held at Lincoln [park] or were they held at Brookside [park] or would
it depend?
-
Elkins
- Certainly. Both. And we looked forward to them.
-
Foster
- Explain to someone who wouldn't know what the Unity picnics were so that --
-
Elkins
- Simply, I don’t know how many, several hundreds of people, were convened in the
park and there were gratuitous beverages supplied, fried chicken, barbeque
beef, whatever else I don’t recall. It was big. It was very big in our lives.
-
Foster
- So each church or most of the churches had kind of trucks that kind of went --
-
Elkins
- Right. It was a good thing because it afforded the churches and opportunity to
interface with one another, the membership with --
-
Foster
- Particularly for the young people or --
-
Elkins
- Particularly for the young people, that was the concern.
-
Foster
- The young people. So, the other part of that was around the world there were
particular events that 2nd [Baptist Church] would have for young people at
BYPU. What were those and, again, why were they important? I kind of come back
to S.P. Johnson.
-
Elkins
- Well, I was president of BYPU probably when I was 19, 20 years old. The black
church was one of the most important factors in the lives of young people. Many
more of the young people then were affiliated with, identified with, or were
members of churches. That's not so, today. So they were big in our lives.
-
Foster
- OK. Having said that, I want to ask you a question. Walk me through a Sunday
for you between the time you arrived in 1931 to the time you went off to UCLA.
Just walk me through what you'd do on Sundays from the time you'd get up to the
time you went to bed.
-
Elkins
- Well, we diligently went to Sunday school.
-
Foster
- OK. That was
-
Elkins
- Every Sunday. Yes. And then there was no 8 a.m., which --
-
Foster
- So it was the 11 o'clock.
-
Elkins
- Yeah. And to the 11 o'clock service. Came home, changed clothes, you had to
wear a shirt and tie of course if you went to church, and went to the theater
every Sunday, as I indicated, the Lincoln Theater or the Rosebud, but the
Rosebud was further down, if there were some special [show], and the theaters
then had what we'd call serials. Do you know what serials are?
-
Foster
- Yeah, I know what a serial is.
-
Elkins
- And I remember my cousin, Charlie -- we were in the theater and the serial was
over and they would always close the serial with the star being in trouble.
And, so the star was in trouble and it closed with the word, "Will he escape?"
And Charlie said, "Hell, yes." It broke up the theater.
-
Foster
- So, you'd go to the theater. Now, when was BYPU?
-
Elkins
- BYPU was at six o'clock and then BYPU was a good hour and then back home. That
was Sunday.
-
Foster
- You didn't do 7 o'clock service or sometimes you would or --
-
Elkins
- No.
-
Foster
- OK. OK. OK. So it was a long day, but your folks, your mom --
-
Elkins
- It was pleasant. We were at, as I said, the theater, and then back for dinner.
And then there were -- there was no such thing as TV and radio. There was a lot
of serial stuff.
-
Foster
- Well, describe Sunday dinner. Describe Sunday dinner.
-
Elkins
- Well, just very pleasant dinners. The kids -- this is at 1206 East 25th Street.
All of the cousins would be seated in the kitchen. There was a large table in
the kitchen and the older people ate in the dining room. With plates. Never any
plastic plates or anything. So dinner was a formal thing, you know, and very
pleasant dinners that we had. And we enjoyed the meal and enjoyed one another,
on the face of it. That was it.
-
Foster
- That was it. So walk me through going to Jeff [Jefferson High School] as a 14
year old. What was it like?
-
Elkins
- I never entertained the idea of trying to go anywhere else. A number of --
quite a few of the students went to Poly [John J. Francis Polytechnic High
School] or went to Manuel [Arts High School], but I wanted to go to Jeff. I had
a very pleasant experience at Jeff. I did well. I was a good student,
obviously, and used the grade point average that I achieved, as I said, to get
the scholarship for UCLA. But, I was very active. I was president of the
student body.
-
Foster
- That was when you were in A-12, when you were a senior?
-
Elkins
- That was when I was president of my class when I graduated. So it was a very
pleasant experience. I had an extraordinary relationship with a number of
people outside of 2nd Baptist Church, including Clayton Russell. When I was at
Jeff, I was the first student from Jeff to win the oratorical contest at SC
[University of Southern California], and Jeff had been participating in it for
years but had never won it, and I won that. And Charolotta Bass had me down and
took a picture of me and ran my picture on the front page in the California
Eagle as the winner of that --
-
Foster
- It's kind of interesting that you mentioned oratorical contest, because it
appears that Lloyd Griffith, who was older than you were, had won an oratorical
contest, you had won an oratorical contest at Jeff, and Dieon Morrow had won an
oratorical contest. There seems to be a Second Baptist connection between
public speaking. That the pastor's -- one of the pastor's sons and then his
grandson and then a loyal Second Baptist minister --
-
Elkins
- We did well. We did well.
-
Foster
- What do you attribute that to? I mean, how did you get into public speaking?
-
Elkins
- I don’t know. I took public speaking, I guess, the last three semesters when I
was at Jeff and did well and I remember my teachers very well and they
encouraged me to focus on it. I had no intention of competing in the SC
contest. This was the University of Southern California citywide schools from
all over -- all of the high schools. It was big. It was big. It was no small
thing. And I was encouraged and decided what my speech was going to be and I
decided I wanted to give a speech on Toussaint L'Ouverture [Haitian Revolution
leader] [inaudible].
-
Foster
- OK.
-
Elkins
- Who was quite a character.
-
Foster
- Right.
-
Elkins
- And so that's the speech I gave and won. And, of course, it was a delight.
-
Foster
- So you said Reverend --
-
Elkins
- I represented Jeff in a number of activities during my senior year involving
other schools. There was -- Jeff was, as I said, about, what, 65 percent black.
And, there was a need to reach out to involve the black students --
-
Foster
- In a lot of activities.
-
Elkins
- Yeah. And with other groups. With other segments of the population. And, of
course, I welcomed that. Bottom line, very, very pleasant experience and went
to Jeff and, of course, went into the service and came back and finished and
applied to UCLA Law School and was accepted and had -- but I wanted to work. I
had married and they insisted that you not work, that you focus and go through
--
-
Foster
- Full time.
-
Elkins
- -- full time with them, so I went into probation.
-
Foster
- So you graduated from Jeff in '38?
-
Elkins
- Correct.
-
Foster
- OK. So, did you go straight in the service, or did you start UCLA in 1938?
-
Elkins
- No. I didn't go into the service until 1939.
-
Foster
- '39, OK. So, because your cousin, Charlie, didn't go to college. You went to
college.
-
Elkins
- Charlie went to City College. They -- all of them went to City College.
-
Foster
- John Luke -- there were a number of people I know you went to school with. How
did, you know -- so, you worked for a year when you graduated Jeff before going
into the service? And how did you decide to kind of go into the service,
because some people, '37, '38 --
-
Elkins
- Decide? Hell, I was inducted. It was not a unilateral decision on my part -- I
would have never gone in. But I was inducted.
-
Foster
- You were inducted in '39.
-
Elkins
- Yes.
-
Foster
- And you stayed in from '39 until -- when were you discharged?
-
Elkins
- I came back in 44.
-
Foster
- Forty-four, OK.
-
Elkins
- A long haul. I went to Italy and came back. I had one unique experience. I had
had two years in Italian when I was at UCLA, so when I was inducted in the
Army, I ended up in Italy and I was very fluent in Italian. So the federal
government decided it was going to keep me in what is called the Army of
Occupation. We were going to win the war and when they needed -- in particular,
they wanted some black officers. I don’t remember what they called them.
(inaudible)
-
Foster
- OK. Let me get this chronology correct. You graduated from Jeff in June of '38.
That's correct?
-
Elkins
- Correct.
-
Foster
- And did you start UCLA in September of '38?
-
Elkins
- No, I worked.
-
Foster
- You worked for a year. And then --
-
Elkins
- I went to UCLA.
-
Foster
- You went to UCLA in the fall of '39?
-
Elkins
- You got it.
-
Foster
- And then when were you inducted?
-
Elkins
- I was inducted in 1940.
-
Foster
- OK. So, you had a year at UCLA before your Uncle Sam called you.
-
Elkins
- Yeah.
-
Foster
- OK. So you just had that one year. So, you worked for a year. You spent a year
at UCLA.
-
Elkins
- About a year-and-a-half at UCLA because I had had two semesters of Italian.
-
Foster
- OK. So that -- I needed to get that clarified. Did you do any athletics while
you were at Jeff?
-
Elkins
- I played basketball my second year, first string, and decided I wanted to play
football instead of basketball and sustained a hip injury that knocked me out,
so I gave it all up. I didn't try to play anything.
-
Foster
- OK. So you did sports one year and you were involved in BYPU and you were
involved in debate. OK, so those were the things that kind of took up your
time. OK. Did you work at any time while you were in high school?
-
Elkins
- Remember, I told you that my grandfather bought --
-
Foster
- A produce market.
-
Elkins
- -- we had a produce -- well, we leased it. It was owned by the Japanese, and I
worked every summer there full time and -- well, not full time. We worked with
my grandfather building houses, and I would work weekends, on Saturday.
-
Foster
- So that gave you your spending money. That gave you money for shoes or those
little extra things that you needed or that you thought you wanted.
-
Elkins
- Yeah, that was important.
-
Foster
- So what did you do between '39 and '39? You said, you worked. Again, did you
work for your grandfather that year or did you work for someone who was paying
you a salary besides a family member?
-
Elkins
- Oh, I worked with my grandfather and in the produce market.
-
Foster
- OK. And so then in 39, you matriculate to UCLA. Describe this. What happened?
How did you apply? One of the things I didn't ask you, you said you'd had
debate --
-
Elkins
- Well, I applied -- I was accepted at UCLA in '38 when I graduated and decided I
wanted to work a year and then went -- the acceptance was still good in '39.
-
Foster
- And you mentioned that you had won this oratorical contest, and that kind of
broadened your horizons both in terms of the white world but also black Los
Angeles. You mentioned Mrs. [Charolotta] Bass. You mentioned Clayton Russell.
How did Clayton take an interest in you or Mrs. Bass, because you won --
-
Elkins
- Well, there were -- you have to remember, it was a different world then, and
there were six students at Jeff who were excelling and I was among those. I
indicated earlier being involved in extra-curricular activities in the city. I
was on a number of panels, student panels, and I don't even -- I met Charlotta
Bass before I won the oratorical contest. And the same with Clayton Russell.
We, well, one of the panels that I was on won something, and Clayton -- and
this was before I graduated. So he had us over to introduce us.
-
Foster
- This is at Independent Church.
-
Elkins
- At Independent Church. And when I graduated, Independent was giving
scholarships -- how did you find out that Albert MacNeil and I --
-
Foster
- I know a lot of things. You know, being an LA native, I knew you got those
scholarships. So you won the scholarship, but you mentioned there were five
other Negroes. Can you remember -- in your class at Jeff, that were also doing
academic --
-
Elkins
- They were active and involved in panels of caring churches.
-
Foster
- Can you remember who else beside yourself --
-
Elkins
- There was a young man by the name of Lloyd Herbs, Albert Jones --
-
Foster
- Lloyd is a member of St. Phillips and is still --
-
Elkins
- Yeah, Lloyd is still living --
-
Foster
- -- living and still very active. He and your cousin spent time together.
-
Elkins
- Yeah, Charlie. Yeah. Albert Jones. Excuse me, very active. A young lady by the
name of Cesile Phillips. And the other two I can't recall.
-
Foster
- OK. But you guys were the cat's meow there at Jeff.
-
Elkins
- Yeah, and you know, as I say, it was a different world then and if you sort of
stood out, if you were selected and -- there was a lot of notoriety.
-
Foster
- A lot of notoriety. So, let's fast-forward to '39 and Clayton's decision to
have this scholarship. So, how did you apply? Or did someone tell you to apply?
-
Elkins
- Clayton Russell personally called me and told me to apply for his scholarship.
And, wanted to know if my church was giving out a scholarship. No. Well, you
apply here. And I remember being introduced to Independent [inaudible] along
with Albert [inaudible].
-
Foster
- So, Albert was where? At Poly or --
-
Elkins
- At Poly.
-
Foster
- -- OK, so Albert was at Poly and you were at Jeff. One of the things we haven't
discussed about your youth and coming here, we talked about S.P. Johnson and
the Sunday School, what are your remembrances of Dr. Griffith? Since you were a
young boy but coming of age.
-
Elkins
- I remember him very well. He was like a father figure, I guess, like a
grandfather figure to those of us who were growing up then. Devoted a lot of
time to young people, Dr. Griffith did. And, was much beloved by us because he
devoted so much time to us. What do I mean? Private counseling sessions with
those he had chosen to guide and give counsel to.
-
Foster
- So he would talk to you about the value of college? He would talk to you about
the value of a good Christian life?
-
Elkins
- Absolutely. Absolutely. And, that was very important.
-
Foster
- Now, you mentioned you had been president of your class and BYPU, your BYPU
mates, can you remember any of them that kind of stand out in your mind? That,
you know, you kind of remember going to the theater with, but weren't at Jeff
so much with you but were people that you were close to at 2nd in those days?
-
Elkins
- I'm embarrassed because I don’t remember names. Faces and experiences, yes.
Douglas, well certainly I remember Douglas Vindactor, Artis Grant, who died two
or three years ago. Phillip Washington. Those are all that I can remember.
-
Foster
- But that's good. So '39, you go off to UCLA. And, here again, did you re-meet
or reacquaint yourself with Tom Bradley when you were a freshman at UCLA or --
-
Elkins
- In '39, there were 22 African Americans.
-
Foster
- OK.
-
Elkins
- Bill [William] Elkins was one of them. Kenny Washington. Tom Bradley. Jackie
Robinson. Woodrow Strode. And there was another boy from Pasadena. It was the
first string, then.
-
Foster
- Mac or Jackie's brother or --
-
Elkins
- No, Jackie's brother didn't go to UCLA. At any rate, we were very close to one
another. We took care of one another. We nurtured one another.
-
Foster
- Did you still live at 1206 East 25th Street?
-
Elkins
- I was married.
-
Foster
- You're married. In '39 you're married?
-
Elkins
- No, I'm sorry. In '39, I lived at 1206 East 25th Street. I mean in the
apartment next to it. One of these picnics with Jackie at UCLA. This was, I
guess, maybe my third year then and Jackie [Robinson] was trying to graduate.
There was a southern white man who was head of the history department. We knew
-- all African Americans knew about him even before he went to UCLA. He felt
that he had to atone for the sins of the south. And he welcomed African
American students to take one of his classes. If you were a D, and there were
no African American students at UCLA who were D students -- if you were a C,
you got a B; if you were a B; you got an A, and if you were an A student, you
got an A. So Albert Jones and I got As, and he decided that he was going to
have, for the first time, I've never had an African American as a reader. And
he selected me and Albert Jones to read the course materials. And, Jackie took
the course and flunked it. And flunked it. Jackie was one of the finest human
beings that I ever met, but he just wasn't much of a student. So, leaving the
campus and here's Jackie, Bill, Bill, Bill, wait a minute. I got a D. Dr. Koot
gave me a D. I can't stand a D. I'll be ineligible next season. Get a hold of
him and tell him to make it a C. I said, Jackie, I read your paper, you didn't
just flunk it, you clobbered it. You didn't come close. So, Dr. Koot read his
paper. I told him. And he said, he called the students, Mr. Elkins -- the
student readers, Mr. Elkins and Mr. Jones -- Mr. Elkins, I just don’t see how I
can do better than a D. He's flunked this miserably. Go back to him and tell
him it's a strong D. And Jackie said, can't he make it a weak C. So he changed
his grade to a C.
-
Foster
- Now, there is another piece of this UCLA puzzle. You and Tom Bradley are
Kappas. When did you go through your Kappa line? Was that in '39 or --
-
Elkins
- '39.
-
Foster
- So, you guys were made in '39 -- you guys were in the same pledge class?
-
Elkins
- No, no, no. Tom was a -- Tom's a few years older.
-
Foster
- OK.
-
Elkins
- He's about three or four years older. At least three years. So he was -- had
been a Kappa and an interesting experience, I was dating -- I had begun to date
Eleanor [Elkin], my wife, and there were two or three Kappas who were high on
Eleanor. Eleanor was a stone fox. So, when I went through the sand [inaudible],
one of the guys, Tom's age, who had been made the same time he was, decided to
take it out on me because Eleanor --
-
Foster
- Was interested in you.
-
Elkins
- -- and not in him, so Tom -- they forbid him to paddle me.
-
Foster
- OK. Yeah.
-
Elkins
- And so that's a true story. And so he was forbidden to paddle --
-
Foster
- And so Tom stepped in and kind of --
-
Elkins
- Yeah, Tom and a couple of others. But primarily Tom. Tom knew what was
happening.
-
Foster
- So Tom's class was -- Tom graduated in '40 or in '41?
-
Elkins
- Tom graduated in '41.
-
Foster
- OK. OK. So there was a little bit of an overlap while you two were there, but
he was a little bit older. Now, you mentioned --
-
Elkins
- Yeah. I knew Tom way before --
-
Foster
- You knew Tom at Lafayette, right?
-
Elkins
- Yeah. And an experience I never -- Jeff, during those years, had a superior
track team. It was rarely beaten. It was nothing to win two or three or four
consecutive city titles. So Wilbur Miller, a guy by the name of Wilbur, Wilbur
just died last month -- was the best 440 man in the city. Tom was the
second-best 440 man. And Tom was at Poly; Wilbur was at Jeff. And I guess there
were 200 or 300 people who came to the track meet at Jeff when Tom --
-
Foster
- And Miller ran?
-
Elkins
- -- were going to hook up. And, of course, Wilbur Miller beat Tom in the 440.
I'll never forget that. And it's funny how some things like that will stand out
in your mind. But that was quite an experience.
-
Foster
- So you had known one another long before you had gotten into UCLA and those
things. And you guys were Kappas. So that was an instrumental experience.
-
Elkins
- Yeah. Tom had a crush on Eleanor's cousin, a young lady, one of her cousins two
or three years older than Eleanor. And I knew Tom -- everybody thought that
maybe Tom and Colleen were going to get together and get married, but that
didn't happen. They dated --
-
Foster
- Where and when did you meet Eleanor?
-
Elkins
- I met Eleanor at a party at a Kappa party when I was pledging.
-
Foster
- OK. So, Eleanor didn't go to Jeff, then. She had gone to --
-
Elkins
- No, she went to Poly.
-
Foster
- She went to Poly. So that was another kind of experience. And Eleanor, did she
go to 2nd or you just met Eleanor at this party?
-
Elkins
- No, I met her at this party. She was not a member at 2nd. I would have met her
at 2nd. She was a member of -- what was the name?
-
Foster
- Wesley Chapel. You were at Wesley Chapel, OK.
-
Elkins
- Now, after we married, she joined us.
-
Foster
- 2nd, OK. I want to sort of close for the day and then we'll come back -- you
mentioned that you went in the service in '40. And if we can kind of leave
today and let you kind of reflect on your service experience and then come back
and kind of talk about your -- so, when were you drafted? When did you receive
your letter from Uncle Sam?
-
Elkins
- It had to be in '39. Yeah. I was the first among my cousins. There was me,
Charlie, James, and Tam -- the four cousins -- and I was the first one to go.
And of course they came in months later.
-
Foster
- How did they get you -- two things. One, this is before December 7, so the
manpower call-up, how did they get you guys early and how did they get African
Americans that early, because this is just right after the German occupation of
Poland?
-
Elkins
- I was, hell, I was just one of those unfortunates whose name came up early.
There were some of my friends, hell, when we were drafted a year after I was
drafted.
-
Foster
- So, in '39 they called you. Where did you do your basic training?
-
Elkins
- In Texas.
-
Foster
- OK, in Texas. Where in Texas. Do you remember?
-
Elkins
- I can't remember.
-
Foster
- Blurt it out if it comes to you.
-
Elkins
- It was -- oh, boy, it meant something.
-
Foster
- Fort Bliss?
-
Elkins
- No. It was about 18 miles southwest of Houston, Texas. It wasn't Camp Crocket.
Isn't that something?
-
Foster
- It will come to you.
-
Elkins
- Yeah.
-
Foster
- So you did basic there and then what was your next duty station?
-
Elkins
- Well, I did basic and then I went to NC [North Carolina]. They had something
called Officer's Training School [OTS] for three months.
-
Foster
- So, again, did you pass a test? Because, as a Negro, this is long before 1947
and Truman's desegregation of the arms service --
-
Elkins
- They looked at you. If you had an IQ of above 110, you were tapped. And, I
didn't seek it. They called me. And, asked if I was interested during my basic
training and I thought about it and said, yes. I had great reservations about
the Army because of what was going on around the world then. I was very
sensitive to the treatment of African Americans in the south and I didn't want
to go in the Army to put my life on the line.
-
Foster
- So where did you take your OTS [Officer Training School]? Again, at Camp
Crocket or --
-
Elkins
- Bennett.
-
Foster
- Camp Bennett. OK. And where was that located?
-
Elkins
- In North Carolina.
-
Foster
- And how long was your OCS?
-
Elkins
- Three months.
-
Foster
- Three months. So, you're a commissioned officer in 1940?
-
Elkins
- Yeah.
-
Foster
- OK. And so as a new Second Lieutenant, where were you then assigned thereafter?
-
Elkins
- I was at Camp Crocket to work in the training school and was finally recruited
to go to Italy. And I spent, hell, two-and-a-half, three years in Italy.
-
Foster
- Talk about for a little bit this notion of going to basic outside of Houston
and then going to Camp Bennett in a segregated armed services. I think for
someone listening or reading this manuscript, they don’t have a conception of
what a segregated military was like during the Second World War.
-
Elkins
- It was a devastating experience. You know, growing up in an integrated --
-
Foster
- Community.
-
Elkins
- -- society in Los Angeles and a segregated army and a lot of racist officers,
but I was very fortunate not to encounter any negative experiences, but I was
super sensitive to them to begin with. To answer your question, it was
devastating.
-
Foster
- So when did they ship you overseas?
-
Elkins
- I went overseas in '40.
-
Foster
- In '40? OK. OK, so you were in England long before the --
-
Elkins
- Went directly to Naples, Italy. Went to Italy.
-
Foster
- Went to Italy. OK.
-
Elkins
- I spent all of my time in Italy.
-
Foster
- OK, you ship, went about getting duty stations, and then when did you return?
-
Elkins
- In, I guess -- when did I return? In early '44.
-
Foster
- Early '44, and you were discharged in mid-'44?
-
Elkins
- Yeah. And it was a struggle. They were determined to keep me. I prevailed on
Gus Hawkins and my pastor --
-
Foster
- OK. So Gus Hawkins and Reverend [J. Raymond] Henderson were instrumental.
-
Elkins
- And there was another man, a black man, who was over at the YMCA.
-
Foster
- Baxter Scruggs?
-
Elkins
- No. I can't recall his name. But at any rate, they were instrumental in writing
letters and -- to keep me from --
-
Foster
- Staying in any longer?
-
Elkins
- Spoke to them in depth.
-
Foster
- OK. And we'll kind of end there, and I'll just ask you one question and we'll
kind of get to the marriage thing. When did you marry Eleanor? What date were
you --
-
Elkins
- Eleanor will be angry because I don’t remember the date. But in --
-
Foster
- Forty-four?
-
Elkins
- No. In 19 -- when I came back. Yeah, it had to be in '44 when I came back.
-
Foster
- OK. But we will continue next week and we'll go from the '40s to the present.
Mr. Elkins, I want to thank you very much for taking the time.
-
Elkins
- All right.END OF Elkins.William.1.12.07.2007.mp3
1.2. Session 2 ( December 10, 2007)
-
Foster
- Good afternoon. It's December 10, 2007, and we are back with Mr. William Elkins
Jr. to finish the 2nd Baptist UCLA oral history. And when I left Bill, we had
kind of gotten to 1944 and your discharge, and I was thinking yesterday on my
way to church and today that I'd actually like to take you back a little bit.
One, to OCS [Officer Candidate School], and you said you were selected to OCS
because you had scored well on an intelligence test. That's the case, right?
-
Elkins
- Yeah. Well, you had to take a test in order to qualify for OCS.
-
Foster
- OK. And how many Negro officers or black officers were tapped to become
officers in the United States Army in 1940 when you were?
-
Elkins
- I have no idea. I was in boot training at Camp Wallace, I think was the name.
And, two of us. There was a battalion of African American soldiers. It was a
large camp. 11 battalions. One battalion of African Americans and two of us out
of that battalion went to Camp Wallace in Texas
-
Foster
- OK. It was Camp Wallace. You did your basic at Camp Wallace or you did your
Officer's --
-
Elkins
- I'm sorry. I was at Camp Wallace for basic and we went to North Carolina to the
-- you know, I don't remember the name of the school.
-
Foster
- North Carolina AMT or Saint Augustine's?
-
Elkins
- At any rate, that's what -- it was a United States training camp for second
lieutenants, that's what you ended up being if you got through the training. It
was a -- what was it? -- it was three months.
-
Foster
- So, can you remember the other gentleman's name that came from Camp Wallace
with you?
-
Elkins
- His name was Herman Lloyd.
-
Foster
- OK.
-
Elkins
- Lost contact with him years ago.
-
Foster
- But Jackie had also gone to OCS, too, had he not?
-
Elkins
- Jackie Robinson? You talking about Jackie?
-
Foster
- Yes.
-
Elkins
- Yeah. I was surprised. I met Jackie somewhere in Texas. He walked in a second
lieutenant. He went to infantry school.
-
Foster
- OK. And you went to artillery?
-
Elkins
- Artillery.
-
Foster
- And then shortly after your completion of OCS, you were shipped off --
-
Elkins
- To Italy.
-
Foster
- -- to Italy and describe during the interrogation of the Italian troops or
civilians. I assume that there were very few Negroes who spoke Italian, so you
were an anomaly to say the least.
-
Elkins
- Yes. I was assigned to a special unit, really. I thought they were going to
assign me to the 92nd, the 92nd Division was in Italy.
-
Foster
- Right.
-
Elkins
- But I was assigned to a special unit where we did the interrogation of Italian
troops trying to weed out intelligence on what was going on in Italy and in the
Italian --
-
Foster
- Peninsula.
-
Elkins
- It was quite an experience. Quite an experience.
-
Foster
- So were you the only Negro intelligence officer in this group or were there --
-
Elkins
- Yes.
-
Foster
- OK.
-
Elkins
- The only Negro. And I had a very interesting experience.
-
Foster
- So how did they quarter you? How did they quarter you? I mean, if you're the
only Negro in this intelligence unit, the military is not desegregated, so how
did they deal with it?
-
Elkins
- But this unit was desegregated.
-
Foster
- OK. So, whether formally or informally, it was desegregated.
-
Elkins
- Right. Right. Right. Right. Right.
-
Foster
- So how did your CO [commanding officer] respond to having a Negro in this unit?
-
Elkins
- I was very fortunate to have an empathetic, sympathetic, sensitive CO. Clyde
DeBon from Chicago, Illinois. And, he was very sensitive to what was going on
in this country. I'm talking about in the so-called affirmative action
movement. Spent a lot of time with him. Well, he spent a lot of time with me
picking my brain on what was going to transpire. What we thought was going to
transpire at the end of the war, whether or not there would be a movement by
African Americans in this country to rectify some of the insanity that had been
going on for years.
-
Foster
- So how long was DeBon your CO? You were together what, a year, 18 months?
-
Elkins
- No, I was in Italy for, let me see, I was in Italy almost three years.
-
Foster
- For three years. Was he your CO the entire time?
-
Elkins
- Yes. Yes. Yes.
-
Foster
- So, quite a good relationship developed. Now, last week you said you were
discharged in '44. The war didn't end in Europe until April of '44. So, how
were you able to get a discharge in '44 and was that discharge before the
Normandy Invasion or afterward?
-
Elkins
- Well, what happened, the Army decided that it certainly was going to have to
have an occupation force in Europe after the war. And, to my dismay, I was
selected to serve in that occupation force. And, it was a struggle to be very
honest with you to avoid being sent back -- we were sent home on furlough and I
went to work contacting everyone that I knew to try and prevent me from being
sent back.
-
Foster
- Back, OK. So they sent you home when in '44 on furlough?
-
Elkins
- Hell, I don't remember the month. Maybe in the early summer.
-
Foster
- OK. So it's after Normandy, then?
-
Elkins
- Yeah. But the thing that saved me is that they decided to set up -- the war was
going to end even more quickly than they had anticipated and they were not
ready. And they had to set up an emergency separation center, Fort Wachooga I
guess it was.
-
Foster
- OK. Down in Arizona?
-
Elkins
- Yes. And so that was where I was sent. And, I had my discharge paper. I was
there for about six months and I wrote my own discharge papers.
-
Foster
- Now, but that's interesting. The war is winding down. It's after the Normandy
Invasion and you're an officer. You're a Negro officer, not just an officer,
and it seems like the United States Army would want to hold on to as many
trained officers, black or white, but particularly Negro officers, and that you
were able to gather a discharge. How did that go about? I mean, what did you
do?
-
Elkins
- Well, I was -- Gus Hawkins --
-
Foster
- OK. Was in the Assembly.
-
Elkins
- -- was very instrumental. I'm pretty sure [H. H.] Brookings was instrumental.
-
Foster
- Brookings wasn't here, then. But you mean, not Brookings, but Henderson?
-
Elkins
- Brookings. Brookings. I guess Brookings was not here.
-
Foster
- No, Brookings was not here.
-
Elkins
- My pastor was a --
-
Foster
- So, Jay Raymond Henderson.
-
Elkins
- Jay Raymond Henderson. He was up to his neck.
-
Foster
- OK.
-
Elkins
- And there was an officer, a black major, who was assigned to the Los Angeles
area to recruit --
-
Foster
- OK.
-
Elkins
- -- African Americans.
-
Foster
- OK.
-
Elkins
- And he was instrumental.
-
Foster
- Do you remember what his name was?
-
Elkins
- You know, I don't remember his name.
-
Foster
- So, but he was helpful for you, not in recruitment but in separation.
-
Elkins
- Absolutely.
-
Foster
- OK. Did Reverend [Clayton] Russell play a role or just Reverend [J. Raymond]
Henderson?
-
Elkins
- No. Not -- Clayton did not play a role in that.
-
Foster
- OK. And what about Mrs. Bass? Did she help?
-
Elkins
- Charlotta Bass? Absolutely. There probably was an article in the --
-
Foster
- The Eagle?
-
Elkins
- -- in the old California Eagle on that. I wouldn't be surprised if she did.
-
Foster
- OK. OK. Because that just seems so odd for an officer to have been discharged
before the war was over.
-
Elkins
- Yeah. But it was. I was fortunate.
-
Foster
- And I don't want to leave the war quite yet, but there is -- something happened
while you were in the service or just getting ready to go to the service that
I've been asked to kind of focus on in this time period, and that was the suit
that was filed by Reverend Henderson against the Sunday School. I gather that
there was -- the Sunday School was in control of substantial funds of the
church and that was a big case and a big issue within 2nd Baptist. Were you in
service at the time or do you have --
-
Elkins
- Yes. I was indeed in service and got letters from members of 2nd Baptist, and I
remember writing a letter to J. Raymond. I supported J. Raymond Henderson's
position.
-
Foster
- OK. Which was that the Sunday School funds should come to the church.
-
Elkins
- Absolutely. And he read that letter. There was no 8 a.m. service.
-
Foster
- Just an 11 o'clock.
-
Elkins
- Just an 11 o'clock service. Read that letter and I got letters from several
people telling me that he had read my letter. I don't know what -- it probably
didn't have any influence, but at any rate --
-
Foster
- Now, who were the opponents of moving the Sunday School money? Was it just
common people in the church or was it --
-
Elkins
- Yeah. Just the 2nd Baptist Church people.
-
Foster
- Was Mr. Johnson, S.P., instrumental in kind of wanting to keep --
-
Elkins
- He was one of the key players.
-
Foster
- Because he was the superintendent of the Sunday --
-
Elkins
- He was the superintendent of the Sunday School.
-
Foster
- OK. OK. So, in a way, how did that change 2nd Baptist? Did that mean that --
-
Elkins
- That was -- no, no. It was just one of the crises that we encountered and we
got through it without any -- I'm sure we didn't lose any members.
-
Foster
- Was it a crisis because of the death of Dr. Griffith and you had a new pastor
in --
-
Elkins
- There were a number of factors. There was the Thomas Griffith factor. There was
a faction which felt that J. Raymond Henderson was too aggressive. There was
another factor which felt that he was not aggressive enough. There were -- it
was a complicated matter.
-
Foster
- But Henderson was someone that you became very comfortable with.
-
Elkins
- He was a father figure to me. I didn't have any father. And he was so
embarrassed because I got a scholarship from Independent and 2nd Baptist didn't
have a scholarship and he immediately moved to set up a scholarship program at
2nd Baptist.
-
Foster
- Now, you're discharged in '44. When did you resume your education at UCLA?
-
Elkins
- The same year I was -- no, '45.
-
Foster
- '45.
-
Elkins
- Yeah. I had -- there were a few months that I just didn't do anything. I didn't
even work if I recall.
-
Foster
- So you didn't work for your grandfather. You were just kind of -- you were
footloose and fancy free.
-
Elkins
- I kicked back.
-
Foster
- You kicked back. So, having said that, was there a GI Bill in '45, or you just
used your savings to start back at UCLA?
-
Elkins
- Well, when I went back to UCLA, I got another scholarship.
-
Foster
- OK. So, from Independent or from 2nd Baptist?
-
Elkins
- This time, 2nd Baptist.
-
Foster
- OK. So Second gave you a scholarship?
-
Elkins
- Yeah. Yeah.
-
Foster
- OK. So --
-
Elkins
- Well, it wasn't, you know, we're talking about a scholarship. The tuition per
quarter was $24. I'll never forget that.
-
Foster
- OK. But that's still -- that still was a substantial amount of money for a
youngster.
-
Elkins
- Oh my God. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. That was a good sum of --
-
Foster
- OK. So 2nd [Baptist Church] gave you a scholarship. Now, when did you marry
Eleanor?
-
Elkins
- Eleanor and I were married in, I guess, 1945 or 1946. Eleanor would choke me if
she -- I'll get the date from her. I don't remember the date.
-
Foster
- But you came back, you courted her, you began at UCLA again, resumed your
studied.
-
Elkins
- No, I was dating Eleanor before I went in the service.
-
Foster
- In the service.
-
Elkins
- Yeah.
-
Foster
- But I said, when you came back, you dated Eleanor, you continued to date
Eleanor, and you started at UCLA.
-
Elkins
- Yes, I resumed.
-
Foster
- Resumed your studies. Did you work while you were at UCLA or did the
scholarship -- was enough to kind of --
-
Elkins
- No. I had a job, a part-time job as the assistant director of the community
center at 2nd Baptist.
-
Foster
- OK. At 2nd Baptist. OK.
-
Elkins
- 2nd -- as a matter of fact, it was probably -- not probably, it was the only
church-owned community center in the city.
-
Foster
- OK.
-
Elkins
- Some very effective programs that we did.
-
Foster
- And so what was your major when you were a student at UCLA as an undergrad?
-
Elkins
- Poli sci.
-
Foster
- Political science. So did you have courses from Dean McHenry or -- you
mentioned Professor Coot.
-
Elkins
- Certainly you had to have McHenry.
-
Foster
- OK. So you had -- so Dean McHenry taught you? OK.
-
Elkins
- I had a good experience at UCLA. There was, I'm trying to think of it -- an
agency, oh my God, I'm embarrassed. I can't think of it. There was a program
run by a very charismatic white woman, a major program, and I got a call asking
if I would serve on a veterans panel, a Black, a Jew, a Catholic and a
non-Catholic. Four of us.
-
Foster
- OK. Four of us. OK.
-
Elkins
- And that was a -- just a tremendous experience. All veterans. On the war. And
what the country ought to do in response to our victory. Governor [Earl] Warren
heard about the panel and invited us to Sacramento.
-
Foster
- So you got on the train and went to Sacramento to meet the governor.
-
Elkins
- Yes. And then there was a big dinner at one of the hotels, Biltmore, somewhere,
where the governor came down and the panel was a major presenter. So I met --
that's how I met --
-
Foster
- Earl Warren.
-
Elkins
- -- Earl Warren.
-
Foster
- Do you think part of that was related to the fact that you had won a debating
contest in high school, that you were selected?
-
Elkins
- Probably so. You know, I had a little name identity.
-
Foster
- OK. So, you were working. When did the GI Bill kick in when you were at UCLA?
-
Elkins
- Hell, I don't remember. The GI Bill, when was the GI Bill passed? Do you recall
what year?
-
Foster
- I think '46, but I'm not sure.
-
Elkins
- As soon as I had access to it, I --
-
Foster
- Took advantage of it.
-
Elkins
- -- took advantage of it.
-
Foster
- And what was your graduation year from UCLA?
-
Elkins
- I graduated from UCLA. I was eligible to graduate in 1949. I graduated in 1950.
-
Foster
- OK. So you came back. And you worked and you had the GI Bill. And did Eleanor
work or did Eleanor --
-
Elkins
- Eleanor? Yes. Eleanor worked for the county. She was a secretary in some county
department.
-
Foster
- And William the Third was born in '48 or '49?
-
Elkins
- In '48 or '49. You know, I can't remember.
-
Foster
- OK. OK. Sorry about that. And then you have another child, too. Larry, is that
--
-
Elkins
- Yeah, Larry was born four years later.
-
Foster
- OK. And where did you buy your first house?
-
Elkins
- 2954 Bronson Avenue.
-
Foster
- OK. And were you able to use the GI Bill to purchase that home, or was the GI
Bill --
-
Foster
- No. J. Raymond Henderson, I told you he was a father figure to me.
-
Elkins
- Right.
-
Foster
- The house, the purchase price of the house, was $11,000. J. Raymond Henderson
gave me $3,000, a down payment on the house. A 30-year mortgage. I think we
paid $70 a month or something like that on the home.
-
Foster
- OK. On the home.
-
Elkins
- That's how I bought the house.
-
Foster
- So, Reverend Henderson was not only just a father figure in terms of kind of
spiritual things, but had made available a down payment for you to purchase a
home.
-
Elkins
- Correct.
-
Foster
- Was a very generous form of outreach.
-
Elkins
- It was extraordinary.
-
Foster
- OK. OK. And so even as a young person -- a young person, I'm saying now in your
mid-twenties, not quite 30 years old, you resumed your activities at 2nd?
-
Elkins
- Correct.
-
Foster
- OK. So what were some of the committees or functions that you've had as an
officer at 2nd?
-
Elkins
- Well, I became president of the youth organization. There was a youth -- a
young adult -- I was elected, they had some -- the youth had something called
BYPU.
-
Foster
- Right. The Baptist Youth Praying Unit.
-
Elkins
- And it was -- I became president of the BYPU. Was very active in the Sunday
School. I guess I had a second surrogate father, S.P. Johnson.
-
Foster
- OK. So, S.P. was --
-
Elkins
- Who was --
-
Foster
- -- the superintendent of the Sunday School.
-
Elkins
- Yeah, and was in constant contact making sure that my tuition -- that I had no
problems.
-
Foster
- That's kind of interesting, because you said that S.P. and Reverend Henderson
were on opposite ends of the Sunday School.
-
Elkins
- That's right, but they reconciled.
-
Foster
- OK.
-
Elkins
- I'll never forget that.
-
Foster
- What do you think brought the two of them together?
-
Elkins
- That was a big time. Just recognition that it made no sense, for the pastor and
the most powerful member, S.P. was --
-
Foster
- The most powerful member.
-
Elkins
- -- member of 2nd, to be at ends with one another.
-
Foster
- Do you remember when Dr. Beck replaced S.P. as superintendent of Sunday School?
Was it while you were finishing up at UCLA, or a little bit after?
-
Elkins
- No, that was later. He was very influential. That was after S.P.'s death, I
guess.
-
Foster
- OK. So what other kinds of service -- so you did BYPU, and was president of the
youth group. When were you finally asked to service --
-
Elkins
- And as I said, I worked part-time.
-
Foster
- Yeah. For the --
-
Elkins
- Assistant director of the Henderson Community Center. One of the big projects
of 2nd was the purchase of the community center. You know, black churches were
not involved in the acquisition of --
-
Foster
- Property.
-
Elkins
- -- property, much less community-based programs. And when Henderson proposed
it, one of the oldies -- "Brother Pastor, what we need with a community
center?" And his response was, "We don't have much of a church unless we have
more than a song and a sermon on at 11:00 on Sunday." I've never forgotten
that.
-
Foster
- Wow. That's very instrumental.
-
Elkins
- And the center -- that was big; it was owned by -- a Catholic-owned --
-
Foster
- Building?
-
Elkins
- -- a child-care center, and there was not a single African-American in it. And
we were delighted that the church saw fit to purchase that center.
-
Foster
- Where was it physically located?
-
Elkins
- Where it is now, on the corner of 25th [Street] and Brooklyn Avenue.
-
Foster
- So where they have --
-
Elkins
- The five buildings.
-
Foster
- -- the five buildings that are the Henderson Center.
-
Elkins
- Five buildings. Three of them were for working mothers -- no, two of them were
for working mothers, one was for young women who were either working or in
school, and the child care center was funded by the government. And of course,
the building for the community center where we had activities for the
community.
-
Foster
- Did Reverend Henderson get funding for this from either the American Baptist
Conference or from the National --
-
Elkins
- Funding came from several sources. The first one was the National Baptist
Convention.
-
Foster
- OK, so the NBC was instrumental.
-
Elkins
- Yeah. And then we got it again with the help of Gus Hawkins and Gilbert
Lindsay, who was working as a deputy for --
-
Foster
- Kenny Hahn.
-
Elkins
- Kenny Hahn. And Kenny Hahn, of course. It was quite a program.
-
Foster
- So when did you begin your work career? You said you went to work in the
probation department, what, in 1950?
-
Elkins
- Well, I went to law school. And came back -- or rather, after I passed the bar,
I stayed in the probation department; there were not that many
African-Americans in the probation department.
-
Foster
- So did you go to law school at night, or did you go to law school full time
during the day?
-
Elkins
- No, no, I went to law school full time.
-
Foster
- OK. Where, at Southwestern?
-
Elkins
- At Southwestern. Remember I told you, I was accepted at --
-
Foster
- UCLA.
-
Elkins
- And they insisted that you not work. And I had just married and wanted to work,
and so I -- that was quite an experience also.
-
Foster
- So you were a full time student working at the community center, a full time
law student, and the GI Bill was helping out. So you were a busy --
-
Elkins
- It was the GI. The GI got me through law school.
-
Foster
- So you were a busy, busy person from 1950 to 1953. And so did you immediately
take the bar when you --
-
Elkins
- Yes. Took the bar, and was lucky, passed the first time. Albert Jones and I
were very fortunate. That was big-time, man.
-
Foster
- That was big-time. So -- but you didn't practice -- you continued to work in
the probation department.
-
Elkins
- Well, I had -- I'm sure I made more money, I was immediately more promoted in
the probation department. And remained there, because I thought what we were
doing was terribly important. And that is trying to -- I had a special program
set up with community-based programs in the city.
-
Foster
- OK. So you were one of these -- like you were out and about.
-
Elkins
- Right. Had a program with 2nd Baptist Church, had one set up over at Brooking's
church [2nd Baptist]. Had one set up at -- well, at First AME [American
Methodist Episcopal]. And another one in South Central. The subsidiary to my
work as a probation -- well, this was a part of it, and this was probably why I
got these promotions -- trying to counsel, direct, and guide young
African-Americans.
-
Foster
- Primarily males.
-
Elkins
- Yeah, it was male.
-
Foster
- Males, OK. So you --
-
Elkins
- To get their act together, to get their lives together, and steer clear of
drugs -- drugs didn't begin to be the problem then that they are now.
-
Foster
- So when did you begin your career with the county probation? Can you remember
--
-
Elkins
- Yeah, immediately after I graduated.
-
Foster
- From UCLA, not from the law school, but as an undergraduate. 1950.
-
Elkins
- Yeah.
-
Foster
- And you continued with the county until --
-
Elkins
- Eleanor can give you the date that I retired.
-
Foster
- OK. Was in '60 or '61?
-
Elkins
- Somewhere around there.
-
Foster
- So you had 20 years with the county.
-
Elkins
- Yeah. 20-some years.
-
Foster
- 20-some years. So you mentioned (inaudible), when were you asked to serve as a
trustee or a deacon? Can you remember?
-
Elkins
- When I was in law school.
-
Foster
- Ok. So 1950 to '53, someone asked you to serve on the deacon board, or a
trustee.
-
Elkins
- Well, Jay Raymond.
-
Foster
- Asked you to serve as a trustee?
-
Elkins
- Yeah. Not deacon, trustee.
-
Foster
- A trustee. So how long did you remain a trustee? Or how many terms did you have
as a trustee?
-
Elkins
- I only retired -- I'm still on the trustee board.
-
Foster
- OK. As a full member or as an emeritus member?
-
Elkins
- Yeah, I've been on it for 90 years. I served as president up until, what, six,
seven, eight years ago when we --
-
Foster
- OK. So --
-
Elkins
- (inaudible)
-
Foster
- OK. So you have been a trustee at 2nd from probably about 1950 to -- until the
present.
-
Elkins
- Oh, yeah. I say 90 years, people ask me, I say, 90 years. You figure it out.
-
Foster
- So that's 55 years that you've served as a trustee.
-
Elkins
- That's right.
-
Foster
- OK. So you've gone through the administrations of J. Raymond Henderson, Thomas
Kilgore, and now --
-
Elkins
- [William] Bill Epps.
-
Foster
- Bill Elks. So you've seen the church's finances kind of ebb and flow, or has it
been kind of a steady state, in terms of being able to kind of steer the course
of it?
-
Elkins
- No, it's been very stable over the years. 2nd was blessed, and I do mean
blessed, to have selected good, stable pastors who had skills much beyond the
skills of their contemporaries. J. Raymond was light years ahead of most black
pastors, in terms of --
-
Foster
- So when J. Raymond retired, did you sit on the pulpit committee, or were you --
-
Elkins
- Yeah.
-
Foster
- OK, so you were --
-
Elkins
- I was on the committee that -- Albert Matthews and I co-chaired the committee
that selected the --
-
Foster
- Tom Kilgore.
-
Elkins
- [Reverend Thomas] Tom Kilgore.
-
Foster
- OK. So 55 years as a trustee. You mentioned -- we talked about the Sunday
School chasm, and I guess the other big kind of demographic change at 2nd was
the question, after Reverend Kilgore's retirement, and the schism, it created
Eternal Promise. Is that -- OK. Can you walk us through a little bit, what
caused people to kind of think about leaving?
-
Elkins
- Well, there -- it was very simple. The assistant pastor, for whatever reason,
was supported by a segment in the church that included Johnnie Cochran [Sr.],
Johnnie Cochran's father.
-
Foster
- OK. Johnnie Cochran, Senior.
-
Elkins
- Not Johnnie.
-
Foster
- Yeah, but John Cochran, Senior.
-
Elkins
- Yeah. And William Daily -- I'm trying to think of the name of the woman who was
so strongly supportive of him. At any rate, the reason was, they wanted the
assistant pastor to become the new pastor.
-
Foster
- The new pastor. And that was Reverend Horton.
-
Elkins
- Yeah. Horton. And I personally liked Horton. But I knew that Horton did not
have the wherewithal to pastor --
-
Foster
- 2nd Baptist.
-
Elkins
- -- 2nd Baptist Church. So that was it. And those who supported him lost, and
those who did not support him won, and we had the privilege to select another
pastor.
-
Foster
- Now, having said that, Mr. Cochran's still at 2nd. Is William Daily still at
2nd, or did he --
-
Elkins
- Yeah, I take personal responsibility, and if you talk to them, they would tell
you that Bill Elkins influenced me --
-
Foster
- To stay.
-
Elkins
- No, they left and came.
-
Foster
- They left and then they came back, OK.
-
Elkins
- Yeah, both of them.
-
Foster
- How many congregants did you lose to this schism?
-
Elkins
- Oh, I don't know. Not -- just a fraction of the church.
-
Foster
- OK, so maybe 100, 125 or so?
-
Elkins
- No more than 100.
-
Foster
- OK. But that was a very difficult time.
-
Elkins
- That was a very traumatic period for the church.
-
Foster
- But let's kind of -- you were on the committee that called Pastor [Thomas]
Kilgore. So how did you find him, when Dr. Henderson announced that he was
retiring?
-
Elkins
- (coughing) excuse me.
-
Foster
- That's quite all right.
-
Elkins
- J. Raymond Henderson selected Tom Kilgore to compete. I'd never heard of Tom
Kilgore.
-
Foster
- So Reverend Henderson knew him from the National Baptist Convention?
-
Elkins
- Yeah, you got it.
-
Foster
- And they were friends, and he viewed him as a youngster that would --
-
Elkins
- Right. There were probably three or four others that we interviewed, but they
didn't have a chance. We very quickly determined that we wanted J. Raymond -- I
mean --
-
Foster
- No, you mean you wanted Tom Kilgore.
-
Elkins
- Tom Kilgore.
-
Foster
- Now, normally, pastors who retire -- in some churches, pastors who retire go
away for an extended period of time to kind of give the new person the chance
to kind of sprout their own wings. But I gather Reverend Henderson remained in
town after Dr. Kilgore was appointed the new pastor at 2nd.
-
Elkins
- True.
-
Foster
- OK. That didn't cause problems? People were comfortable with that?
-
Elkins
- It did cause a stir, because J. Raymond did not feel that he was given the
recognition, or afforded the recognition, and the -- I don't want to use the
term "credibility," it had nothing to do with his credibility. But that he was
not used as much as he should have been used. He wanted to preach more --
-
Foster
- -- than Reverend Kilgore allowed him --
-
Elkins
- -- than Reverend Kilgore felt that he should preach. So that was a real
problem.
-
Foster
- That you had two bulls in the room together.
-
Elkins
- Right. And the wife of J. Raymond Henderson was so bitter, she did not attended
(inaudible) until after Thomas Kilgore died. And it stemmed from the problem
that the two men had. But we worked very -- I was on a committee, there were
five of us, and -- a young man with those deacons and others, and we finally
persuaded them to resolve their differences.
-
Foster
- Their difficulties. Now, one of the things about Reverend T.L. Griffon and then
Reverend Henderson, they were very active in the NAACP. You called Pastor
Kilgore in what, '61 or '61. And how did he kind of fit into that kind of civil
rights tradition?
-
Elkins
- He was very active. As a matter of fact, he was easily the number one
African-American civil rights pastor, certainly in the county of Los Angeles,
and maybe even in the state.
-
Foster
- Did he or Reverend Henderson get involved in SCLC? Ws it -- did --
-
Elkins
- No, that was totally --
-
Foster
- Jay Raymond?
-
Elkins
- No. No, no. Kilgore. See, Tom Kilgore knew the King family from back East.
-
Foster
- Because he'd gone to Morehouse [College].
-
Elkins
- Yeah. And was very close to the King family. And every time Martin Luther King
came to Los Angeles, he was headquartered, so to speak, out of 2nd Baptist.
Preach, he didn't come here a single time without preaching. He was on a -- set
up a committee, one of the great experiences of my young life was to have been
privileged to sit on a committee that Martin Luther King and Tom Kilgore pulled
together, dealing with affirmative action, and how we ought to confront the
establishment, the public elected officials.
-
Foster
- OK. This was before August, 1965.
-
Elkins
- Yes.
-
Foster
- OK. Now, going -- a little before that, Pastor Kilgore was called, what '62,
'63?
-
Elkins
- Yes.
-
Foster
- OK. Now, you had another acquaintance -- when did you meet H.H. Brookings, and
how did you meet Reverend Brookings?
-
Elkins
- Well, I knew Brookings -- I'm sure I met Brookings when I was in high school or
shortly after that, I was very active, as I indicated earlier, and we were
interested in setting up what I called a young adult movement to address the
needs and concerns of young African-Americans.
-
Foster
- But Brookings was not assigned to 8th and Town until 1959. Shaw had been there
before that --
-
Elkins
- As soon as he came, I met him. And the -- now, I met him, I mentioned the name
Albert Jones --
-
Foster
- Right, then attorney.
-
Elkins
- Yeah, who's a member of
-
Foster
- 8th and Town.
-
Elkins
- Yeah, 8th and Town. And I remember when he took me over -- while I went to
church, and after the 11am service, introduced Brookings. See, there were not
-- there were three or four of us who were active, you might say, in things
that concern young African-Americans, and I was one of them.
-
Foster
- Who, besides yourself, was very active? You know, this is --
-
Elkins
- Well, there was Albert Jones. There was -- oh, my God, I'm embarrassed. A young
man who served as president of the student body at Jefferson, and went on -- I
think he went to Cal [University of California, Berkeley]. And I knew Albert
McNeil, but Albert was not active, as we were. Good young man, but --
-
Foster
- Good young man, but he wasn't active.
-
Elkins
- He just was not active.
-
Foster
- But so you meet Brookings in '50 --
-
Elkins
- Oh, that was -- oh, my God. See, when age gets you, your memory -- (laughter).
But there were three or four of us who were shakers and movers.
-
Foster
- But '59, Brookings arrived, a new pastor, new kid on the block, didn't know
anybody. So Albert Jones introduces you to him, and how do you and Albert Jones
-- Jones is a member of 8th and Town, but then how do you get Tom Bradley
involved in this equation? How did you and Tom --
-
Elkins
- Well, I knew, you know, we here again --
-
Foster
- You and Tom, of course, had grown up together.
-
Elkins
- I met Tom at Lafayette Junior High School 90 years ago. And of course, knew him
when he had Poly. We were not close friends, but we knew one another, and
frequently interfaced. And Tom became a Kappa.
-
Foster
- And it was -- made you --
-
Elkins
- And was instrumental in bringing me in. So we were very close -- Tom was in my
wedding, when we --
-
Foster
- Got married.
-
Elkins
- -- got married. Very, very close. This is many years later, I served on the
five-person committee that got him elected to the --
-
Foster
- Councilman --
-
Elkins
- Council, 10th. And same thing when he ran for mayor.
-
Foster
- Now, you just brought up an interesting point that makes a lot of sense to me.
You went to work for probation, and Tom, when he was at Newton Street, I
believe he and Kermit Brown were the two juvenile officers?
-
Elkins
- Correct.
-
Foster
- OK. So you worked with Tom, because you eventually were dealing with juveniles
--
-
Elkins
- Yeah, we were talking earlier about the movement to help young
African-Americans get their act together. Tom was very instrumental in that,
along with several others. Eleanor, could I avail on you to turn this light on,
please, ma'am? Give us a little light?
-
Foster
- OK.
-
Elkins
- Don't have any light?
-
Eleanor
- I can turn like this one on.
-
Foster
- OK, that's fine. Thank you, Mrs. Elkins.
-
Eleanor
- You want more? I can turn on --
-
Elkins
- No, no. That's all right.
-
Foster
- We're fine.
-
Elkins
- Just a little light.
-
Eleanor
- You sure?
-
Elkins
- Yeah, no, fine. Thank you very much.
-
Foster
- So Tom and Kermit were probation officers -- were the juvenile officers, so you
would kind of have conversations about the kids along Central Avenue that you
were dealing with?
-
Elkins
- Well, more than conversations; he was actively involved, as a police officer in
the meetings that we had with them. A very constructive relationship, I would
say, with them. And when we got Tom -- I'll never forget this -- when Tom, we
got him elected, I got a call, "Bill, come on down here and let me see where I
need to put you." I said, "Tom, I got -- I'm not going to work for you. I have
friends who have graduated from law school since I graduated, and they can buy
and sell me. I'm not coming down there to work for you, the city doesn't pay
any -- I'm going to go make some money." And I had an offer with a firm -- what
was it? -- $35,000 a year, I think it was. And I was not making $35,000 a year
working --
-
Foster
- -- with the probation department.
-
Elkins
- This was something that I felt I needed to do. And it was a great sacrifice. So
I said, "No, Tom, I've got to go make some money." He wanted me to come as an
administrative assistant, which was just below -- there were the deputy mayors,
and special assistants.
-
Foster
- Now, this was when Tom went to the City Council, or was elected a mayor?
-
Elkins
- No, no, no. Mayor, I didn't even think about working for him when he was in
Council. So then Tom called back and said, "Bill, I can make you a deputy
mayor," or a special assistant, they were on the same level, "Come on down
here. I need you." And I said, "Tom, you know I love you, and I'll work with
you and help you in every way that I can. But I've got to make some money."
-
Foster
- Because you just retired from the county.
-
Elkins
- No, I'm in the probation, I'm still in the probation --
-
Foster
- You're still in the probation, OK.
-
Elkins
- Yeah, I'm getting ready now to go practice law and make some money.
-
Foster
- OK, so you're getting ready to retire from the county.
-
Elkins
- And I came home, walked in here, back into the breakfast room, there's Ethel.
-
Foster
- She was sitting here.
-
Elkins
- Yeah. "Bill, what's this you're doing to Tom?" I said, "What do you mean doing
to him? We just got through busting our butts to get him elected?" "Well, Bill,
he told me you ain't coming down there to work with him." And I said, "Ethel,
I've got to go make some money." "Bill, you can't do this to Tom now. All those
people down there are going to be telling him what he wants to hear, and if
he's acting," -- I'm quoting her now -- "And if he's acting a damn fool, you're
the only one who can tell him he's acting a damn fool. He needs you, Bill." So
I hadn't thought about it in that light. So I said, "Well, let me -- all right,
let me think about it." That was on a Friday. And Eleanor got on my case,
"Bill, you know you need to go down there to help Tom." Tom lived just --
-
Foster
- On [Hepburn].
-
Elkins
- Yeah, just a couple of blocks away. So I thought about it, I thought about it,
I thought about it. And that Saturday morning, I thought about it overnight,
and I walked over, and I said, "All right, Tom. You've got me for two years.
I'll help you set up your administration and do what I can. But after two
years, I'm gone." "All right, Bill. Come on." So the two years turned into --
-
Foster
- 20.
-
Elkins
- 20 years, of course.
-
Foster
- Now, let's go back to 1962, '63, for a minute. You mentioned you were on that
committee of five that chose Tom Bradley to run for the 10th Councilman seat.
Can you remember who those other four --
-
Elkins
- Yeah. Me, Brookings, and three other white people.
-
Foster
- OK. Do you remember who the white people were?
-
Elkins
- They were Jews. No, I don't remember. If I think hard enough, I'll remember
their names.
-
Foster
- Was there pressure coming from Gus to kind of push a candidate to run against
Hollingsworth, or was this just kind of just in the 10th district that this
kind of combination --
-
Elkins
- That was 10th.
-
Foster
- Right. But you heard nothing from Gus, you heard nothing from a young Joe
Summer?
-
Elkins
- No, no. They were very supportive of Tom, absolutely. Unequivocally supportive
of Tom.
-
Foster
- OK. So there was not a split between the CDC [California Democratic Council]
and the kind of (inaudible) faction.
-
Elkins
- No, no.
-
Foster
- OK. And, what, Gil had been appointed to the council, what, a couple of months
before Tom's election?
-
Elkins
- You got it. Had not been elected, appointed.
-
Foster
- OK. And so that meant that there were going to be, what, three Negroes on the
council with Tom being elected?
-
Elkins
- Correct.
-
Foster
- Billy Mills and then the appointment of Gilbert.
-
Elkins
- You got it.
-
Foster
- And how well did that work, from '63 through --
-
Elkins
- Couldn't have gone smoother. We -- I remember this. My Jewish friends. Tom,
they met once a month, and I said, "Tom, that ain't enough. You need to meet
--" I'm talking about outside of City Hall, there may be half a dozen meetings
in City Hall, one office or another. Tom, the mayor, thought nothing of walking
over the Gilbert Lindsay's office. If he did that once, he did it a few dozen
times; I remember walking over, some issue. But I'm talking about meetings --
-
Foster
- Formal meetings.
-
Elkins
- -- outside of -- and Fran Savage, who was a Jewish staff member, we would have
the meetings in a building downtown, and it was the building that Fran was in.
Here she went to Tom and told Tom, "You know, it's a problem, these meetings,
you, Bill, Gilbert Lindsay --"
-
Foster
- And Billy Mills.
-
Elkins
- And Billy Mills. You know how sensitive Jews are, so we stopped the meetings.
We stopped them from downtown and continued them at Tom's house.
-
Foster
- OK. So you met on Hepburn.
-
Elkins
- Yeah. That's some of the history, man. I shouldn't be putting this on tape.
-
Foster
- No, but it works out. What about August '65, the riots? All of the sudden, it's
August 8th. Tom's on the council, you've got three blacks on the council.
You're still in probation at the time. What do you remember about those --
-
Elkins
- -- meetings? I remember them well. The most important meeting was at First AME
that we pulled together, with a number of councilmen, Xavier Slotsky was on the
council, I don't remember how long he had been on the council.
-
Foster
- Yeah, Slotsky wasn't on the council in '65.
-
Elkins
- Wait a minute. This is another one then.
-
Foster
- Yeah, that's '92.
-
Elkins
- Yeah, I'm sorry.
-
Foster
- But '65. '65/
-
Elkins
- Still, there was still a meeting.
-
Foster
- At First AME.
-
Elkins
- Yeah. And I remember the meeting, a good meeting. A lot of expressions, and
asking for peace, quiet, tranquility; don't let the city explode. And the city
did not explode, as you are aware.
-
Foster
- But Sam Yorty was kind of a mischief maker, or --
-
Elkins
- Not kind of. Hell, he was a total mischief maker.
-
Foster
- OK, I just want to get that on the record.
-
Elkins
- Sam Yorty was bad news.
-
Foster
- OK. So he was bad news for most Negroes and for Hispanics.
-
Elkins
- Yeah.
-
Foster
- And talk about the '69 election when Tom runs for the first time. There was a
lot of racial acrimony in that race, and Mr. Bradley didn't win. Can you --
-
Elkins
- Well, of course he was going to win, he was favored to win. And it was just an
incredible disappointment when he did not win that race. I'll never forget, we
were at the Biltmore, that's where --
-
Foster
- The campaign headquarters were.
-
Elkins
- Yeah, were. And all of our friends were there for celebration. And call came in
from back East, from some syndicated columnist whose name I don't remember. I
recall it was for Tom, and Tom said, "Bill, you take it," he was in a
one-on-one meeting with somebody. And, "We want to congratulate the mayor, the
first time an African-American mayor of a major city." And an hour later, we
knew that --
-
Foster
- That it wasn't going to happen. So '69, he doesn't have success. So how did you
go about building the correlations that were going to make it possible in '73?
-
Elkins
- Well, you know, Tom was an extraordinary public elected official who worked --
not 40 hours a week, but a good 60, 65. I mean, literally hours a week. I used
to keep on his case. If I walked over -- I used to jog, and I'd be up at 5:00,
jog, shower, and at least two or three times out of the week, I'd walk over --
-
Foster
- To get him --
-
Elkins
- To [Welland], we had something to discuss about some item on his agenda. And I
was usually -- kept on Tom's ass. I said, "Tom, you know, you're not an old
man, but you're not a young man, you can't spend all -- this much time, you're
going to wear yourself out." And that is precisely what happened.
-
Foster
- -- what happened, OK.
-
Elkins
- Precisely what happened. That's what I was so disturbed over his death. At any
rate, you need to know that we did work, man. We did --
-
Foster
- No, I believe it.
-
Elkins
- We did work. And Eleanor -- I think I told you, I've been married for 62 years.
And going back at least 40, she's been divorcing me.
-
Foster
- But you guys work --
-
Elkins
- You accept your age.
-
Foster
- You guys worked long hours, '73, Tom wins.
-
Elkins
- Well, I didn't answer the question. I sort of tripped out on you. I said, "Tom,
you're a good man. Just get ready for four years down the road, and we'll give
it another shot." And we spent an inordinate amount of time organizing support
in the Jewish community, organizing support with the black ecumenical leaders.
Hell, I'm sure that we had at least two or three breakfast meetings a month
with black preachers.
-
Foster
- So this is where John Factor and Rabbi Magnin came into the picture?
-
Elkins
- You got it.
-
Foster
- So kind of describe who brought John Factor into the conversation. Tom Bradley,
or Brookings, or you?
-
Elkins
- No, Tom. Tom Bradley. So Tom was respected and admired and loved like few
politicians, public elected officials were, because he gave individual time.
Well, to important other public people who could help him.
-
Foster
- But how did he know Factor? I mean, because of Max Factor, the business, or he
was introduced to factor --
-
Elkins
- No, no. We had a person, a Jewish person on staff, who had the responsibility
to corral Jewish businessmen, and that's how that happened. And then he met
with him once a month.
-
Foster
- OK. So that's how you got John Factor and eventually got Rabbi Magnin involved.
-
Elkins
- Right.
-
Foster
- And then you mentioned the pastor.
-
Elkins
- I guess I was just as responsible for Magnin as anybody, because he was a close
friend of Tom Kilgore. And I was in a lot of meetings with Tom and Magnin --
-
Foster
- And Rabbi Magnin too.
-
Elkins
- And others. That's it.
-
Foster
- Well, what about 1981 to '84, getting the Olympics. What did you guys do to
make that happen?
-
Elkins
- You know, Los Angeles was the choice of those who wanted the Olympics. There
was a lot of pressure in support of other cities, I don't want to mislead you
in this. But it was just sort of a natural. And we were delighted that Tom was
able to pull it off.
-
Foster
- But they are a different set of businessmen. Instead of the John Factors and
the Rabbi Magnins, it's Peter Uberoff and John Argue and James Anderson. How
does he bring these people along to kind of support the Olympics?
-
Elkins
- Well, you know, we knew them -- me and Tom, we knew Peter Uberoff, and was
instrumental in helping him with some business transactions. See, keep in mind,
now, that the business community was developing and growing during the latter
years of the Bradley -- well, all during the Bradley administration. When Tom
was elected, the tallest building in Los Angeles was City Hall, 25 stories.
Those buildings wouldn't have gone up without the support of the mayor.
-
Foster
- So the mayor was instrumental with -- I mentioned John Argue, and Anderson of
--
-
Elkins
- All of them.
-
Foster
- So how was he able to bring them together? Through his own forceful
personality, or through the LA Times?
-
Elkins
- No, no, no. Through the force of his own personality, the credibility that he
had developed. The respect that they had for him. And we had -- there was the
11th floor was the City Hall -- was the cafeteria. And then there was a small
room, the so-called executive dining room. We expanded that threefold. And at
least two, three times a week -- and I mean this literally now -- Tom had
breakfast meeting with various segments of the community.
-
Foster
- There were some African-Americans and some reformers from '73 to '93 who argued
that Mayor Bradley spent a disproportionate amount of time downtown, and never
spent time with the neighborhoods. And this came from environmentalists on the
West Side, and it also came from certain segments of the African-American
population. How do you respond to that?
-
Elkins
- There was that criticism, and Tom's response was that he was not "the black
mayor," he was mayor of the city of Los Angeles and happened to be black. And
we -- I remember meetings that I participated in, and we said to him, "How the
hell are we going to elect this man mayor with a 12% black electorate unless he
spends time --"
-
Foster
- In the Valley.
-
Elkins
- Yeah, in the Valley, in the Valley. So that was an unfair criticism. Tom spent
an inordinate amount of time with black ecumenical leaders, community leaders,
and God knows -- I don't know who all. But that was that criticism.
-
Foster
- There was that criticism, and --
-
Elkins
- Totally unjustified.
-
Foster
- And the other African-American criticism was, the Crawford case began in 1963,
that was the school desegregation case, and didn't get to Judge Edley until
1975, and that supposedly, Mayor Bradley did not attempt to influence the
school board in any dramatic way as this case kind of wove its way through the
courts. Again, is that an unfair criticism?
-
Elkins
- Absolutely. I'm trying to think of the name -- what's the name of the guy, the
black assistant superintendent?
-
Foster
- Jim Taylor?
-
Elkins
- Jim Taylor, right. We spent an inordinate amount of time -- Jim Taylor's been
in this house a few dozen times, sitting on the couch.
-
Foster
- Now, Jim -- you and Jim were also at UCLA together, weren't you?
-
Elkins
- No. I preceded him.
-
Foster
- OK, you preceded. OK.
-
Elkins
- A tremendous administrator, Jim Taylor.
-
Foster
- OK. Because he had a heart attack, he couldn't become superintendent.
-
Elkins
- Right, right.
-
Foster
- OK. So your view is that Bradley did spend time on the desegregation issues,
and tried to thwart the --
-
Elkins
- Oh, God, yes. You know -- now, that's a black thing, we're going to be
critical.
-
Foster
- I have to ask the question.
-
Elkins
- No, I'm aware of it.
-
Foster
- And then let's move to '92, the last kind of trauma that the city had. Had the
earthquake a couple of years before, but then the insurrection in '92. This
must have been painful for both you and for --
-
Elkins
- Extremely painful.
-
Foster
- -- and Mayor Bradley, because of your commitment to young people.
-
Elkins
- Yeah. Extremely painful. You know, if you live to be 100 years, you don't
forget that period, and the things that went on. And this is a meeting that I
referred to earlier --
-
Foster
- With Yuroslavsky.
-
Elkins
- Yeah. Over at --
-
Foster
- First AME.
-
Elkins
- First AME church. And we deliberately made certain that there would be segments
of the community that we had interfaced with in attendance at that meeting. It
was -- otherwise, the meeting would take it and go to [Wes Tell] with it.
-
Foster
- So you made sure that the meeting was very inclusive.
-
Elkins
- Balanced. And there was just tremendous support for the mayor, all that he had
done, reaching out to the various segments. They even mention my name, after --
"Oh, don't do that."
-
Foster
- But having said that, and as a lifelong Angelino, I'm asking you and myself
this question. Did we realize how the city had changed from 1965 to 1992, in
terms of its ethnic diversity? You mention African-Americans being 12% in 1960
--
-
Elkins
- I didn't fully understand the impact of the change. And --
-
Foster
- Knew it was there but just didn't fully understand it.
-
Elkins
- Yeah, didn't -- no in-depth analysis on the impact of what it's all about.
That's a fair statement.
-
Foster
- OK. So you've seen a lot in your 87 years. 20 years in probation, 20 years
working for the mayor. You never did have your opportunity to go off and
practice law. But now, as you are doing your church work and other things, how
do you reflect upon this well over 60 years of public service?
-
Elkins
- You know, what a great experience. And I feel I've been privileged as few have
been, the last 10 years -- well, the last 15 years, really -- I've spent an
inordinate amount of time with the state. Brown appointed me --
-
Foster
- To the state personnel --
-
Elkins
- To serve on the state personnel board, and that was a great experience for me.
I just got off of it, what, five or six months ago and gave it up. And when I
look back over it, I've thought about doing a book, and that ought to be done,
of the Bradley -- the influence of the Bradley -- Tom Bradley's political life
--
-
Foster
- Legacy.
-
Elkins
- -- on Los Angeles, going all the way back to the time that he spent on the
council. And I've received maybe a half a dozen calls from editors, some
credible, some not credible --
-
Foster
- -- not credible.
-
Elkins
- -- saying, "I'd like to partner with you and do a book," and I haven't done it,
but that's something I've been thinking seriously about, and maybe that ought
to have been done.
-
Foster
- Now, having said that, '92 occurs, traumatic influence for the city, clearly a
traumatic influence for the mayor, and 20 years in office, and then what, a
year later, he passes away. That must have been traumatic for you to kind of --
to have seen somebody a few years older than you are, vital and healthy, all of
the sudden just suddenly not be with us.
-
Elkins
- Very traumatic. See, I said earlier that I used to try to counsel Tom. Tom was
a very private person, and I don't know anyone other than myself who had direct
access to him --
-
Foster
- Besides Ethel [Bradley].
-
Elkins
- Besides Ethel, and who was open with him. I said, "Tom, you've got to be out of
your god damned mind. We can't do that," because that's the relationship that
we had. And I loved the man. The -- I've seen a lot of politicians, white,
black, polka dot, but never one like Tom Bradley, who had the genuine
commitment to use his life, his power, his influence, to improve the quality of
life for people. And that's really what he was about. And when he -- you know,
we were aware, I was aware of the problems that he had, many of which had not
been published, of course. And I attempted to counsel with him to back off,
slow up, slow down, and so when he had the heart attack, we thought he was
going to recover. The medical analysis and report and projections were that he
would recover. So I had -- excuse me, the thing that really got to me is that I
had gone by the hospital like 7:30 that morning -- I'd go every day to see Tom,
to check with him, what you need. And I had gone that early because I was
supposed to -- I had--
-
Foster
- -- another meeting.
-
Elkins
- I had, no, to Washington --
-
Foster
- -- DC.
-
Elkins
- -- DC. And here I am back here, man, at -- no, I guess it was about 9:15. I got
a call from his doctor saying that he had passed. And that just -- it was
difficult to deal with.
-
Foster
- Yeah. Now --
-
Elkins
- But that's that.
-
Foster
- That's that. And two kind of concluding questions for you. One, you've said
that clearly in your life, besides your grandfather, S.P. Johnson, and J.
Raymond Henderson, were very instrumental in your life, looking at your two
boys, looking at Larry and William, are there others that you can say, over
your lifetime, that you've mentored, besides just your two?
-
Elkins
- Oh, dozens. Literally.
-
Foster
- Dozens. Literally dozens.
-
Elkins
- Particularly at 2nd. And they're there, you know. They hold me in the esteem
that they shouldn't, you know.
-
Foster
- Are there any that you think of in particular that kind of come to your mind
that really kind of took to your advice and counsel, and sometimes didn't take
(inaudible)
-
Elkins
- It would be difficult for me to name off the top of my head. Let me just say
that we -- Eleanor and I have been very pleased with our two sons. Larry, as
you may or may not know, is in a first-rate law firm in Beverly Hills, and of
course, Bill is doing what he is doing. Tried to have them understand that we
wanted them to have a good life, to have the capacity to earn enough money to
have a good life. But their lives should not be devoted to earning money doing
things. I think that both of them have accepted that premise, and modeled their
lives around that premise.
-
Foster
- -- that premise. And my last formal question for you, again going back to
mentoring. You talked about these people, you talked about your children and
about the other people that you've kind of been in contact with. What about
Tom? Did he have mentors as he was growing up? He was a little bit ahead of
you, but when he was Poly, and then at UCLA, were there people that you think
stood out?
-
Elkins
- Tom -- I compare his mother to my mother. Tom was raised by a single parent who
did not have a high school education. I was raised by a single parent who had a
10th grade education. But the wisdom of people with three PhDs --
-
Foster
- -- were not sufficient to what your mother had.
-
Elkins
- Right. And I knew Tom's mother, of course, and how she loved and guided him,
and he said this many, many, many times -- you know, youngsters who are
privileged to have parents who are well educated, that's a tremendous
advantage. But that ain't what it's about, and we should not lose --
-
Foster
- Sight of that.
-
Elkins
- -- sight of that.
-
Foster
- Yeah. I remember the old people used to talk about -- kind of a coarse
expression -- "Shit, grit, and mother whip," and mother whip being that kind of
commonality that kind of formal education doesn't kind of convey, and it sounds
like you're a believer in mother whip, and kind of the intuitive nature of
being able to kind of solve and kind of resolve a whole series of issues.
-
Elkins
- Absolutely. You know, I think of my mother, the wisdom, the common sense, the
judgment, and the devotion that she had to her children, I had a sister who
passed about four years ago, was extraordinary. And whatever I am --
-
Foster
- You are because of your mother.
-
Elkins
- I owe it to her.
-
Foster
- Mr. Elkins, is there anything that we haven't kind of covered that you want to
in these two sessions? Is there anything --
-
Elkins
- No, I don't believe so.
-
Foster
- You feel comfortable --
-
Elkins
- You've covered a wide range.
-
Foster
- Yes, I think we have. And I want to thank you on behalf of both 2nd Baptist and
the UCLA Oral History Project for consenting to this interview.
-
Elkins
- What are these interviews supposed to be used for again?
-
Elkins
- They are part of the oral history of 2nd, and 2nd has contacted with UCLA to do
these. I was asked to do four senior members of the church: you, John Cochran,
Senior, Albert Matthews, and Antoinette Carter. And I assume that the church is
going to probably ask for me to do a few others as well. But those are the
first four, and I said I would do it, and I said -- but on one condition: that
I also be able to include Bishop Brookings in this oral history, because of
yours and his relationship to Tom Bradley.
-
Elkins
- Yeah, Tom Brookings was very instrumental in the political life of Tom Bradley.
-
Foster
- OK. Well, Mr. William Elkins, Junior, I want to thank you for taking the time
and effort.
-
Elkins
- My pleasure. And best to you in your other interviews.END OF Elkins.William.2.12.10.2007