00:00:00
Cline:
This is Alex Cline, interviewing Judge Tammy Chung Ryu on August sixth,
2008. This is our first session, and by way of explanation, all of these
sessions are being conducted in Judge Chung Ryu's chambers during her
lunch break, because that's the type of schedule that she has, and
that's what's available for these interviews, so she's actually going to
be eating lunch as well as talking to me and answering my questions.
Good afternoon.
00:00:41
Chung Ryu:
Good afternoon.
00:00:43
Cline:
Thank you for taking this time to meet with me. I guess that you had an
unusually hectic morning, and we're going to do as much as we can here
today without jamming you up any further.
00:00:55
Chung Ryu:
All right.
00:00:55
Cline:
But I'll start at the beginning, as we always do, and I will ask you
where and when were you born?
00:01:03
Chung Ryu:
All right. Do I have to give you my birthdate?
00:01:08
Cline:
Sure, unless you don't want to.
00:01:13
Chung Ryu:
No, that's fine with me. I was born August twenty-third, 1960, in Seoul,
Korea.
00:01:23
Cline:
And let's start with your father. Who was your father, and what do you
know about his background?
00:01:29
Chung Ryu:
My father's name is--he goes by B.W., which stands for Byung Wook in
Korean. He's always gone by B.W. Chung. He's retired now, but as long as
I can remember, he was always in construction, so when I was young he
was working for Hyundai Construction Company, which is part of the big
Hyundai conglomerate that makes cars and other things. I remember him
being away a lot when I was growing up in Korea, because he was working
in Vietnam and other countries, building things for Hyundai Construction
Company, and so my memory of him actually being with us all the time
starts when we moved to Guam, because he moved to Guam in 1969 to set
up, I guess, an office for Hyundai Construction, or a branch. So he was
there, and then we followed him in 1970, and he was in charge of Hyundai
Construction Company branch there for a while, and that's when actually
I remember living with him all the time, that he was around all the
time, and that's when we were living in Guam.
00:02:52
Cline:
When you were ten years old?
00:02:53
Chung Ryu:
When I was ten.
00:02:55
Cline:
Interesting. What about his family background? Where does his family hail
from, and what do you know about that, a little bit?
00:03:06
Chung Ryu:
I probably don't know as much as I should know. He came from a farming
family, because my grandparents were farmers, and I'm talking about his
father's family. So he lived in the countryside outskirts of Seoul, and
I remember spending summers going out there, and spending a few days or
a week in the country with my grandparents. So I remember like ox-driven
carts, you know, going by, and I remember the rice fields. I remember
catching crickets in the rice fields, and we actually ate those
crickets. I think they were crickets. But in Korea in the countryside
they do that. They have these little coal, a burner type of thing in the
kitchen or bedroom, and you would throw these crickets in there and they
would actually pop.
00:04:15
Cline:
Oh, man.
00:04:15
Chung Ryu:
Yes. Kind of like protein, right? It's good protein. So we were eating
bugs. I remember eating crickets. So I remember riding oxes, and I
remember going to their house that had a big, like a yard which was just
like no grass or anything, just earth patted down so it's hard. Then
they would have a small, like a barn on one side, with an ox and maybe,
I know he had chickens, where they had chickens, and then the bedroom
would be facing me. So I used to do that during the summers.
00:04:50
Chung Ryu:
My father is the oldest of six kids, and he decided he did not want to be
a farmer, so my understanding is he left the countryside when he was in
high school, so I think he was sixteen or seventeen, went to the city to
finish his education, and then put himself through high school and
college, and he became an architect, and that's how he got into
construction.
[Telephone rings. Tape recorder turned off.]
00:05:23
Cline:
We're back.
00:05:26
Chung Ryu:
Okay. So my father's kind of like a self-made man, which I'm not sure if
it was that unusual at that time. But his father was an educated person.
His father was the village's teacher. So they didn't really have a
school in the early times when my father was growing up, and I think my
grandfather was the person who taught everybody how to read. His mom, my
grandmother, never learned how to read, and I really don't know why my
grandfather didn't teach her, because they got married when she was very
young. I think she was a teenager, which was not uncommon I heard those
days, which was match made, and very intelligent woman, almost like a
photographic memory, but she didn't know how to read, and she never
learned how to read. But she could figure everything out just from her
memory, because she memorized everything. So she didn't go to school.
Okay, that's my dad.
00:06:24
Cline:
But as the oldest and a son, I would assume he had certain obligations to
the family, despite the fact that he left. How did that work out, do you
know?
00:06:39
Chung Ryu:
Well, ultimately my grandparents moved to the city to live with us. I was
six years old. So they sold their farm or whatever they had. They moved
to the city, so it's expected that children take care of their parents
when they get older, especially if you're the firstborn and you're the
son. So they came and they lived with us, and my father also supported
two of his youngest siblings, who were going to school, I think, at the
time, because I remember they lived with us until they got married.
That's another thing that we do in Korea, is the oldest sibling has to
make sure they marry off all their younger siblings. So they went
through college, I think, in the city, and then they got jobs, and then
they got married, and I remember them living with us, my youngest aunt
and my youngest uncle. We even actually had a cousin. My dad was the
oldest son, but he had an older sister who passed away, I think soon
after she had her kids. So one of her children, her son, came and lived
with us while he was growing up, so he went to high school while living
with us, so my dad was also in charge of putting him through school. He
became an architect, and he lives in New Jersey.
00:07:56
Cline:
Interesting.
00:07:59
Chung Ryu:
So that's how, I guess, my dad did his duty. Yes.
00:08:02
Cline:
Sounds like a lot. What about your mother [Jane Chung]? What about her
background and what you know about her story?
00:08:10
Chung Ryu:
My mom grew up in the city, and she went to one of the best high schools
and colleges for women at that time. She went to Kyueng-gee High School,
which I later found out was very hard to get in. Then she went to I-hwa,
which is a university for women. She never finished, because she married
my dad. And what happened was, I heard that he was kind of hired as her
tutor. It's not uncommon for Koreans to have tutors for their kids, so
he was her tutor. So my dad is nine years older than my mom. So he was
her tutor I guess probably while he was putting himself through
whatever, and I guess they fell in love. So my mom got married to him in
the middle of college, and so she never finished college, because at
that time they didn't let married women go to college, or continue, at
least not her school, and then she had me immediately, so she's very
young. So she never finished college, which is a shame because later on
I found out how smart she must have been to get into those schools, and
what a waste.
00:09:33
Cline:
But this was actually a love match. This wasn't something that was
arranged by the family?
00:09:39
Chung Ryu:
No. In fact, I think my mom's parents opposed the marriage, obviously
because--well, the other thing is my father was married. This is his
second marriage. So he had married someone that his parents had wanted
him to, who was living with my grandparents in the country, so he was
kind of commuting, and he had a daughter. My sister [Kyung Sook] is six
years older than me, my half-sister, so that's another reason, because
my mom was obviously--I think she was twenty when she got married to my
dad. So she was very young, had her whole future ahead of her, and
here's a married man, and, of course, he divorced his wife, which caused
a big, you know, problem, for the city girl, and he had a child. But I
heard my father threatened to become a monk, like shave his head and go
live in some temple if he wasn't allowed to marry my mom. So I guess
after he got divorced, then all that.
00:10:43
Chung Ryu:
I think my mom's parents, my grandparents, actually liked him a lot. So
in the end, you know, I guess they were permitted to get married. That's
kind of ironic, because my parents are now divorced. [laughs] But they
were married for about thirty years before they got divorced, but that's
their history, from all that I've heard.
00:11:09
Cline:
Interesting. So does this mean that your father's religious background
was Buddhist?
00:11:16
Chung Ryu:
I know that my grandparents on both sides were Buddhist, because I
remember going to the Buddhist temple when I was little. You know, in
the spring we'd go up to some mountain to these temples and all that. I
remember going on those trips with my maternal grandmother, but after we
moved to the United States, my parents actually became Christians,
became Baptists, and so they're both Baptists, and my mom still goes to
Baptist church, and is very involved in church. I know it took long for
my father to become Christian, but he did get baptized and all that when
I was in high school. He now lives in Korea. He's retired and lives in
Korea, so I don't know if he's going to church regularly, but he's no
longer Buddhist. Yes.
00:12:17
Cline:
Okay, interesting. I guess it's kind of a typical pattern for immigrants
to come, and along with the culture they take on the local religion. But
also, of course, Christianity is really huge in Korea, so you never
know. So you were the first child born to that particular couple?
00:12:41
Chung Ryu:
Right.
00:12:42
Cline:
What do you remember about Seoul from the time you were, say, young until
around ten years old? What part of Seoul did you live in, if you
know?
00:12:55
Chung Ryu:
I lived in this town called Sang-do Dong. It used to be kind of suburbs
of the city, but I think now the city has spread, and it's probably part
of the city proper. I remember going to the elementary school. I
remember walking to school. I don't remember how far it was, but we
walked to school and walked back every day. And I had two younger
brothers [Kisup and Jisup], who are a year and three years younger than
me, and I was in charge of them, and so I had to always make sure that
they got to school, and that I picked them up after class and bring them
home. Things that I remember the most is how cold the winter was,
because we would be bundled up, and I think I was wearing maybe two
mittens, and I would have my bag, school bag, and then I would have my
lunch pail. I don't think they provided lunch or sold lunch at school,
because everybody brought lunch. And I remember my hand feeling frozen
by the time I got to school, so I actually had to kind of pry open my
fingers to get my lunch pail out, or released.
00:14:11
Chung Ryu:
And I remember stacking up the lunch pails, which were all made out of
metal, to heat up the lunch on top of the furnace that was in the
classroom. And there was a pecking order to that, because if your lunch
pail was right on top first, then it tends to either get burned or too
hot, overheated, and if it's on towards the top then it still is cold,
so you have to kind of put it towards the bottom, but not way in the
bottom. So if you were popular or you were a teacher's pet, or you know,
somehow you had some sort of authority in class, then you'd get to put
your lunch pail in the ideal place. And I remember that. I remember that
being really important.
00:14:56
Chung Ryu:
And I remember cleaning the class. We were all expected to clean the
class. So there were cleaning days where we would put all the desks and
chairs pushed up against the side, chairs on top of the desks, because
the floors were all wood, and then we would mop the floors with hand.
Yes, I remember that.
00:15:19
Cline:
Wow. What, if you can remember, say, were your particular interests in
school as a youngster, or maybe your strengths academically, if you had
such a thing then?
00:15:31
Chung Ryu:
I think I was always kind of a student who pushed herself. My parents
never had to push me, probably because I pushed myself. I always wanted
to be the smartest, did the best on the tests in class. I remember being
really competitive at a very young age, and I'm still shocked at how
competitive I was, but I think that was the culture in Korea. You know,
the schools are gigantic. There are so many students, and everybody
knows that you have to be very competitive early on. So I remember
always trying to be the class president, or the representative, always
wanting to get 100 percent on all my tests, you know, being very
competitive that way, and always being a good student, you know, that
type of thing. So I remember being really disappointed if I didn't get
perfect scores. I don't know why I was like that, but that's the way I
was.
00:16:35
Chung Ryu:
And my mom talks about, you know, times when I would stay up at the
tender age of eight or nine, staying up really late to get my homework
perfect, or study for the tests, or things like that.
00:16:48
Cline:
Wow. Were there certain areas that you excelled in, or others that
struggled with, or were you just kind of generally across-the-board
strong?
00:16:58
Chung Ryu:
Well, you know, I was only in elementary school, so we all received
general education. But I remember liking to write, because I remember
entering some writing contests. And I'm sure my mom didn't push me,
because she's not a pushing type, and my dad wasn't around that much, so
I must have wanted to do it as well. So I remember entering national
writing contests and things like that. So I know I liked reading and I
liked writing. I don't remember that much about math or science.
Probably means I didn't like it that much. I later grew up not liking
math and science, so I probably didn't--I probably tried to do well, but
I'm sure they weren't my favorite subjects.
00:17:43
Cline:
Okay. You mentioned that your father wasn't around a lot. When he was
around, how did he play out his role in the family, and what was your
relationship with him like, as far as you can remember?
00:17:56
Chung Ryu:
I didn't have a lot of relationship. I just remember him coming home for
like a month or two months, and then being gone for six months. Maybe
when I was little he was around more, but I don't remember that. I
remember him coming home, and then it would be fun, because his company
would give him a car and a driver. You know, those days in the sixties,
very few people in Korea had cars or drivers, or access to cars. So when
he was home, we would get a driver and a car, and whenever he went
somewhere that we could tag along, we would be able to ride in the car.
So that was a big deal. And then maybe because he didn't see us that
often, he would treat us to, you know, like soda, which was very
expensive, and then we would get chocolate, things like that, which were
very expensive. My teachers would get special presents. In Korea I think
teachers routinely get bribed by parents. It's not against rules or
anything like that. It's all appreciation, because teachers are revered
in Korea, and so they're treated very nicely by everybody, and so they
get treated a lot, and I'm sure they got treated well by my parents,
just because they were able to get stuff from foreign countries, which
was kind of hard and rare.
00:19:21
Chung Ryu:
I also remember a lot of conflicts when he was home, because there was a
lot of tension between my mom and my grandparents over my sister,
because my sister was living with us when my grandparents--you know, she
came with them. So I was six and she was twelve, starting middle school,
which probably was not a good time for my mom to all of a sudden play a
mother to a preteen or teenager. And my mom was really young, so I think
there were a lot of conflicts, and so my dad had to settle a lot of
conflicts when he was home, because my grandparents probably waited
until he got home to complain, you know.
00:20:05
Chung Ryu:
So I remember not understanding what was going on, but years later,
after--and I became closer to my sister, and she would vent about how
bad my mother was, you know, when she was growing up, not understanding
things and all that. So then I got to understand more what all those
conflicts were about. But you know, I was still kind of young, and you
know, I wasn't really allowed to listen or all that, but I remember
there being a lot of conflict.
00:20:39
Cline:
Did the dynamic really shift when your father was home? Did it seem
really different from what you remember, or was it just kind of the
same? Especially when someone's not around a lot, then when they're
there, sometimes all the roles and everything kind of shift in a way.
Was it like that, or what do you remember?
00:20:58
Chung Ryu:
You know, when my dad was home, he was definitely the head of the family.
You know, he's the oldest son, and I think my grandparents gave him the
deference of him being the oldest son, and so he was the primary
decision maker, and nobody could really dispute or disagree. So I
remember that, because when my dad was gone, I really didn't interact
that much with my grandparents or even my sister, because in
Korea--although we had a big house, probably four bedrooms or so, which
is considered pretty big, but there's like the master room. We didn't
have beds or anything like that, so it's basically the tradition where
you have like futon type of things, thick mattresses or blankets, and
they're stored in like a closet during the day. At nighttime they're all
spread out, and everybody has their own, so that's where you sleep, kind
of like a sleeping bag but without the bag part.
00:22:05
Chung Ryu:
And my mom and my brothers and I slept there, in the master bedroom type,
and when my dad came he slept there. That was our room. And I pretty
much stayed there after school and stuff, except when we ate we would
all meet in the middle big room, which served as living room, family
room, dining room, because then these small short tables would be
brought in with the food, and we would all eat there. But my sister
slept and basically lived with my grandparents in another room, and
because she didn't go to the same school I did, we really didn't
interact that much. But when my dad came, we did. When my dad came and
then we went out, she always came with us, and that's when I would
interact with her.
00:22:53
Chung Ryu:
I don't think we really talked to her, because my brothers and I were
very close in age, so, you know, we talked or fought a lot. But my
sister was much older, you know, so there wasn't a lot of interaction.
It must have been hard for her, because she was a teenager. She probably
felt like she was kind of an outsider. So when my dad decided to move
all of us to Guam, there was a big issue about whether my sister would
come with us, and I think there was a lot of discussion, heated ones
about that. She ultimately did come with us, but I know she didn't want
to, you know, because my grandparents, especially my grandma was kind of
like her parents, her mom, you know, because she grew up with them
almost her whole life. But I remember, so the interaction, who we
interacted, whom I interacted with would change whenever my dad came
home.
00:23:50
Cline:
Do you remember where her mother wound up, and why she didn't have much
contact with her, evidently?
00:23:55
Chung Ryu:
Yes. I know a little bit, because my sister ended up, after she became an
adult, looking her up, and she did, I think, get a chance to meet with
her. But in those days, if she wanted to get remarried she probably
would not want to reveal that she was married and had a child, and
that's why I think women gave up custody of their kids, because if they
kept their children, they would never be able to get remarried. So I
know her mom remarried and had her own kids. Yes. My sister was able to
find her, because she told me, but while we were growing up we never had
contact, and I don't think my sister even knew that she could try. And
maybe her mom would not have wanted it at that time.
00:24:51
Cline:
What do you remember about any sort of chores or responsibilities you
would have had other than caring for your younger brothers going to and
from school, when you were young?
00:25:03
Chung Ryu:
I was not given any responsibilities or chores, because my job was to be
a good student.
00:25:10
Cline:
I see. Okay.
00:25:12
Chung Ryu:
Yes. We had a cook.
00:25:13
Cline:
This is where I was going.
00:25:13
Chung Ryu:
Yes, it was very common, even if you were just middle class, to have, you
know, especially because so many people were poor, who for room and
board would work for you, you know. So I know we had a cook, and we had
a young person who was her helper, and she also babysat us and ran
errands and cleaned, and things like that. But I wanted to do things, so
I would want to, like, wash my own underwear or socks, you know, do
laundry. And we didn't have a laundry machine. You had to do it by hand.
And I remember wanting to go in the kitchen and want to see what's going
on, and they would always shoo me out. They'd say, "No, you can't be in
the kitchen. It's too dangerous. You'll get--," you know, because
there's a lot of things burning and stuff. We didn't have a traditional
stove. It was all charcoal and wood, so it was probably a dangerous
place, but I wasn't allowed, because I remember thinking it was a great
luxury for me to be able to wash my socks, to, you know, do
something.
00:26:15
Chung Ryu:
But I'm kind of an organized person. I'm a little anal, I'll admit it
gladly. So I took very good care of my clothes. I always folded them, or
put them up. I made my own bed in the morning, put them away, you know,
all that, so I did those kind of things as self-imposed chores, I guess.
And I'm sure I was a bossy sister, too. I probably made myself a
babysitter for my younger siblings. Yes, but I wasn't given anything to
do.
00:26:46
Cline:
Okay. So speaking of food, what do you remember about the food? What were
you eating?
00:26:56
Chung Ryu:
I remember, you know, like I said, the middle big room was where we ate.
So my mom, I think my grandma would help sometimes. Our cook, helper
would bring in the tables with all the food. Of course, these tables are
not gigantic, so because we had my aunt and uncle and my cousin, so
there were, like, different tables, you know, different sizes. I
remember my brother, who's a year younger than me, but he's the oldest
son of the oldest son, see? So he gets to sit with my grandparents at
basically the head table, and I would sit with my mom or my aunt. So I
remember that, and because you're not at the head table, you don't get
everything that they have.
00:27:47
Chung Ryu:
For instance, my grandparents had chickens, they brought their chickens.
I think we even had rabbits, but the chickens would lay eggs, but very
few, not enough to go around, and eggs were kind of rare, kind of
expensive. You know, dairy products were very expensive, and eggs, and
meat, too, red meat. So the eggs would go to the head table, and my
grandfather would first get whatever is there, and then my uncle, and
then my brother, maybe my cousin if he was there. And I remember
thinking, that's really not fair. How come my brother gets an egg and I
don't get an egg? So I remember there being like a hierarchy in terms of
what we get. And red meat, too, you know. There's a bigger portion of
meat over there, and smaller portion at our table.
00:28:33
Chung Ryu:
And then maybe because my grandparents were Buddhist, we would have these
traditional services for our ancestors. They would set up this huge,
fancy table, and we would do all this bowing. We had to wait for
midnight. I think that's when we'd do that. And my brother always was
expected to participate, and bow with my grandfather, because most times
my dad wasn't around, so he was the surrogate son, the oldest son. And
then he would get to eat whatever he wanted first from the table. And my
youngest brother never could stay up that late. So I remember growing up
thinking my brother got special treatment, and that being unfair, but I
think that's coming from a paternalistic or chauvinistic culture.
00:29:23
Cline:
Yes, Confucian.
00:29:25
Chung Ryu:
Yes.
00:29:25
Cline:
Wow. What do you remember, if anything, of seeing non-Koreans or
non-Asians in Seoul during the 1960s when you lived there?
00:29:40
Chung Ryu:
You hardly see foreigners. I do remember seeing foreigners once or twice,
and what I can remember--and I think he was a black person, probably in
the military, probably was wearing a uniform; I think so. And I remember
kids just following them, like ten to twenty feet row of kids following
this one person walking down the street, because he was such a novel
sight. It's such a homogeneous society, right? And you see somebody who
looks so different, different color, different hair, you know, and
people are just turning and staring. And little kids, of course, would
follow them and stare at them, and maybe even try to talk to them. But I
remember seeing that, kids following this one person. How strange it
must have been for that man. But yes, I remember that happening
once.
00:30:38
Cline:
Right. Well, and in the postwar divided-country culture that you grew up
in, what do you remember about the conditions under which you had to
live, where there was suspicion and perhaps threat of attack and all
that kind of thing? Do you remember much about that?
00:30:55
Chung Ryu:
Yes, I actually do. This is bringing back a lot of memories. At our
school, I think they kind of brainwashed all of us. At our school there
were posters everywhere, in the hallway and everything, how bad the
North Koreans were, how bad the president of North Korea was, how people
there were eating rats and things, because the conditions are so bad
there. You know, they all look really evil in their posters, you know,
all wearing red, you know, red for communist, right? And we're all
anti-communist. Everybody's anti-communist, right? Even though we may
not even know what that meant. But we were very early on told, you know,
"It's bad, it's bad over there. Everybody's bad. They're being
brainwashed over there, the common people." And I think we were in a way
brainwashed, too, to think that they were all evil over there, and you
know, we weren't really taught anything else. So when you grow up in an
environment where everything you hear about North Korea is bad, and
they're evil over there, of course you're going to be so anti-North
Korea.
00:32:05
Chung Ryu:
And as for preparing for a possible invasion, maybe my parents were much
more wary of that. I don't remember. I don't remember. But if they
invaded us, I wouldn't have been shocked, because I was told how bad
they were, and they were always trying to take advantage of us or attack
us. Yes.
00:32:24
Cline:
You don't remember take-cover drills, or any kind of military activity or
anything?
00:32:31
Chung Ryu:
I don't remember the drills, but I remember these exercises we used to do
out in the big yard that we had in front of our school. There was
probably like over a thousand kids, and you know, these are like
elementary school, so they're little kids. But we would all line up and
do these stretches and exercises. I do remember some drills. I do
remember some drills now, but I don't know if they were earthquake
drills or, you know, take cover and duck because there might be a
bombing type of drill. Yes, I don't remember.
00:33:13
Cline:
Interesting. So you lived in Seoul for roughly ten years, nine, ten
years. As you got a little older, and as the late sixties start coming
along, what do you remember about possibly seeing an increase not only
in modernization in Seoul, but in the influence of Western, perhaps even
popular culture? I know you were pretty young, so you may not
remember.
00:33:48
Chung Ryu:
Well, I know that chocolate was not a Korean homemade thing, and I
remember wanting to eat chocolate a lot. I still do. Chocolate is one of
my favorite things. But I remember the skirts becoming shorter, and I
remember my sister getting into trouble because her skirt was too short,
either by school, from school people, or from my grandparents, because I
remember that, and that must have been the American influence, the
mini-skirt thing, and all the girls wanting to wear shorter skirts.
Because she was a teenager, you know, when we were living there, so I
remember that.
00:34:42
Cline:
Did you get television at some point?
00:34:44
Chung Ryu:
Yes, we had a television. I think we only had one. It was in the middle
room, and we all went out there to watch TV, yes.
00:34:54
Cline:
What did you remember seeing, if anything?
00:34:57
Chung Ryu:
A lot of shows, singing. I actually remember a lot of the singers, yes.
It's funny, because at Hollywood Bowl in the last two, three years,
Korea Times and other organizations throw this huge concert at Hollywood
Bowl, and invite entertainers from South Korea to come and sing, and I
don't know any of the young groups or singers, but I know the older
people that came and sang, because I grew up, you know, watching them on
TV. And my mom was a voice major, so she really liked singing. My
grandparents really loved watching shows, so I remember growing up
watching a lot of shows with a lot of Korean singers. Yes.
00:35:42
Cline:
And now Korean singers are really popular all over Asia.
00:35:45
Chung Ryu:
Oh yes.
00:35:46
Cline:
Especially Japan, I guess.
00:35:47
Chung Ryu:
Right.
00:35:48
Cline:
Interesting. Did you ever see any American TV shows, anything non-Korean
that you remember?
00:35:57
Chung Ryu:
You know, I don't remember. I don't remember watching them in Korea. Yes,
I remember watching them in Guam, but not in Korea.
00:36:05
Cline:
What about radio, what do you remember about hearing anything on the
radio maybe?
00:36:13
Chung Ryu:
I don't think I listened to the radio that much. Remember, in Korea we
went to school six days a week. We went to school Saturdays, yes, and
our summer vacations were short. And then we had homework during our
vacation. Oh yes, they occupied--it's so academic-oriented, you know. So
I don't think we had a lot of free time. Yes, so TV was mostly in the
evenings.
00:36:40
Cline:
You mentioned how close in age you were, and the word fighting was used.
What was your relationship like with your two younger brothers?
00:36:49
Chung Ryu:
Even though they were close to me in age, I always felt like I was much
older, and I had to, you know, be responsible for them, like walking. My
brother that was right below me [Kisup], he used to be so slow walking,
and he wanted to look at everything on the way. There were a lot of
vendors, you know, on the streets on the way, especially when you'd get
closer to the school, and I was so paranoid about going to school, being
early and on time, and I remember always trying to drag him out of
stores, making sure that we got to school on time. But after school I
remember I had this favorite thing I wanted to do. My cell phone is
vibrating, but we can ignore that.
00:37:32
Cline:
Okay.
00:37:35
Chung Ryu:
These vendors would have little propane-gas things, and they would take
sugar and they would melt it. Then they would pour it, and they would
put like those cookie-cutter kind of things, and they would press these
cutter things with a shape. And what you have to do is you have to take
away all the excess, you know, sugar that's been crystallized or
hardened, so that you get the perfect shape, and if you get it perfect
then you get a prize. Of course you have to pay for that, too. But I
remember it being really important to me that I do that, so I spent a
lot of time, I think, after school on the way. We were allowed to do
that. And I remember it's really hard, because when you try to break off
to conform with the outline, you know, it's really hard to get it
perfect, and you have to, like, lick it and do all this stuff. People
who grew up will remember that in Korea. We used to do that. I remember
doing that a lot growing up in Korea.
00:38:40
Cline:
Interesting. So what were your feelings when you started to hear about
leaving what was familiar, and going to someplace outside Korea?
00:38:51
Chung Ryu:
I was very excited. I really wanted to move. First, I like going to new
places, you know. And we didn't travel much, but the times that we were
taken outside of the city, I really enjoyed going to places. I never
went outside of the country, but, you know. And my dad told us that we
would go to the United States, and I knew that Disneyland was in the
United States, so I thought we were going to be moving somewhere near
Disneyland. I did not know how big the United States was, and I did not
know that Guam was just an island in the middle of the Pacific, you
know, far from California. I did not know you had fifty states, and you
know, it's a huge country, and it would take us a long time to get to
Disneyland, because I thought you just can get on a bus, or take a cab
ride or something to Disneyland, so I was really excited about going to
the United States.
00:39:57
Chung Ryu:
And I must have heard a lot of good things, you know, they must have a
lot of chocolate, there's soda, you know. Even though I wasn't a soda
drinker, you know, just that there was abundance, because even though we
didn't grow up poor, there were a lot of things we couldn't have, even
if we want. Like bananas were really hard. I remember like each banana
would cost a lot of money, so it would be really a big treat to have a
banana maybe once a year, at least for our family. So I knew that it was
the land of plenty, so I looked forward to all the stuff that I could
eat there, and Disneyland, and I probably was also looking forward to
that, because I think there was a lot of conflict with my grandparents
and my mom, mostly probably because she was the second wife that they
didn't want, you know, because they had set up my dad with his first
wife. So I think they resented her and the difficulty she was having
helping my sister grow up and all that, so I think I was kind of looking
forward to going and just living by ourselves as a family, like a
nuclear family without an extended family, and I probably equated that
to, like, no more conflicts. And I think I probably looked forward to
being able to live with my dad and just see him all the time, yes. So I
was really excited.
00:41:20
Cline:
Okay. We've hit the limit here timewise, and I haven't talked to you yet
about what your relationship was like with your mom, but we can carry
that over into when the family unit is more together once you move to
Guam, and we'll get to hear more about the move and everything that
happened after that. Does that work for you?
00:41:40
Chung Ryu:
Okay. Yes.
00:41:41
Cline:
Okay. You can eat now. Thank you very much.
00:41:45
Chung Ryu:
Oh, thank you.
[End of interview]
00:00:00
Cline:
This is Alex Cline interviewing Judge Tammy Chung Ryu, on August
twentieth, 2008. This is our second session, and once again we're
meeting in her chambers during her lunch hour, and I don't see any lunch
today, so I'm not sure she's getting any.
00:00:25
Chung Ryu:
I'll eat after our interview and after I'm done.
00:00:27
Cline:
Wow, amazing. And thank you for taking the time. We are having shorter
sessions than usual, in order to make this possible, and we'll do as
much as we can today. Last time we left off talking about your early
life in Seoul, Korea, and we talked a lot about your family life, your
family dynamic, the situation with your mother and your father and your
half sister, and all these various people, and we left off with the
piece of information that you were getting ready to have your family
move out of South Korea to Guam, your father, I guess, having a job
opportunity there with the Hyundai Corporation.
00:01:14
Chung Ryu:
Right.
00:01:16
Cline:
You said he was in construction, and you did sort of hint, however, that
it sounded like maybe there was a bit of a scheme, perhaps some planning
on your father's part to move to the United States ultimately. Do you
remember anything about that, because you mentioned how you really
didn't have much of a sense of what the United States was like, except
that you'd heard about Disneyland, and you knew that it was a place of
abundance. Was, to your knowledge, Guam sort of a temporary sort of a
move, or am I off on that?
00:01:59
Chung Ryu:
You know what? I don't know, because we did not have, you know, like a
family meeting where we were even given a lot of notice and input. You
know, it's a very typical Korean family. I'm sure my father made the
decision. I'm not even sure how much my mom participated in making that
decision, although I'm sure she wouldn't have had any objection. My dad
actually went there in 1969, a year before us, to set up the branch, and
maybe he, you know, agreed or wanted to set that up in Guam, because
knowing that once we moved to Guam we can gain permanent status, and
then later on become citizens of the United States, and it will actually
be a way for the kids to come to the United States and get education and
the opportunities, because that's usually the primary reason that your
parents immigrate to the United States.
00:03:01
Chung Ryu:
I don't think it was going to be temporary for my parents, because my dad
actually ended up quitting the company and setting up his own
construction company, which he operated for many, many years. So he
stayed there even after I moved to what we call mainland, California, so
he and my mom and my younger brothers stayed behind, and my sister and I
were in California by ourselves for a little while. So I think he wanted
us to eventually come to the main part of the United States, because I
think his emphasis was on education, and he knew we would get better
education here. So he sent all of us out eventually for high school, on
to the mainland.
00:03:51
Cline:
Okay. You also suggested that you didn't know anything about Guam, except
that I guess maybe you knew it was an island. Describe what it was like
for you in terms of your feelings. Although you said you were excited,
what were your feelings about knowing you were going to be leaving what
was familiar, leaving family members, leaving friends, that sort of
thing, as a ten-year-old girl?
00:04:21
Chung Ryu:
I actually had no reservation. I didn't have any problem saying goodbye
to friends, or even family. I don't know if it was because I was young.
I'm sure I thought of missing my, you know, grandparents on both sides,
and my aunts and uncles, but I just remember being very happy about the
move. It may be, you know, as I stated, it would be the first time that
our nuclear family would actually be living by ourselves apart from the
extended family, so we would truly be like a family by ourselves, and we
would be living with my dad year round, which would be the first time
that I could remember that happening. And I do like new places, you
know. I like traveling, seeing, and I was looking forward to going to
school in a new place, making new friends, so I guess in that sense I
wasn't really apprehensive about the move.
00:05:32
Chung Ryu:
I know it was very difficult for my sister, though, because she was
already fifteen or almost sixteen, so she was a full-blown teenager. For
her, learning a new language, even though she did learn English in
Korea, is so--I'm sure it was daunting for her. And she's very shy, too,
an introverted person, so I think for her going to a new place and a new
culture was not something she was looking forward to. She also got
really sick on the plane. She's the only person who got really, really
sick on the plane, and as I told you in our last interview, she was
raised by my grandparents mostly. I think she felt like she was being
taken away from "her" family, quote, unquote, so I'm sure it was very
difficult for her. But I was fine, and I think my brothers who were
younger than me were. I don't remember any of us crying when we left,
you know, so we were very excited to go there.
00:06:37
Cline:
You mentioned the thing I was going to bring up next, which is the
language issue. I know that some Korean immigrants made this stop in
Guam partly because it's sort of a transitional staging area, but also
it's a place to learn English before you get to the mainland. How much
preparation was done in this regard, before you got to Guam, or was the
stay in Guam sort of part of the linguistic plan?
00:07:07
Cline:
We didn't have any classes or anything prior to leaving Korea, except for
my sister, who took English classes in her school, which was mandatory,
I think, for junior high or middle school up. But we got there July
second, 1970, so we got there the middle of summer. My dad was already
proficient in English, or he spoke English pretty well, and so he was
our teacher during the whole summer. So he actually bought this little
blackboard. It was a real blackboard with an eraser and chalk and
everything, and we would get lessons, the alphabet, the numbers, just,
you know. And we were told how to respond to certain questions, like,
"What is your name? How are you?" and, "How old are you?" But obviously,
you know, he wasn't a trained teacher. He only taught us when he had
time.
00:08:09
Chung Ryu:
So the first day we went to school, we actually got enrolled in a private
school, a Catholic school. In Guam at that time, there were only two
types of private schools. They were either Catholic, which were a
majority of the private schools, that were run by fathers and nuns,
sisters, and one Protestant private school, which was basically the
Caucasian kids, who were either there, the military family kids, because
there's a huge Air Force base there, Anderson Air Force Base. There
might be a naval base, but I didn't know about that. So that's how it
was separated. There was no real, you know, non-religious private school
at all, and public schools were probably not that good in quality. And
also, my dad needed us to get special attention, because we had to learn
English, and we were the first Korean family on the island. We were the
first Korean kids on the island. Adults were there for construction, you
know, workers and staff, but they had not yet brought their family over,
so we were the first family to be in Guam, 1970. So for a long time, we
didn't have other Korean kids around.
00:09:26
Chung Ryu:
So first day we went to school, we were conditioned to answer questions a
certain way, but I don't think we really knew what the questions meant.
We just knew if we hear certain words, we're supposed to say certain
words in response. And I remember one of my brothers, he was asked, "How
old are you?" and he said, "I'm fine," because he thought they were
saying, "How are you?" So he said, "I'm fine, thank you," because that's
what he was supposed to say, because I think we didn't really know what
it really meant, so I remember that happening the first day of school.
And then, you know, we just had to learn, you know, in school.
00:10:11
Cline:
I'm imagining that you had not been on an airplane before, and you
mentioned that your sister got sick. What was that like, getting on a
plane and flying somewhere?
00:10:19
Chung Ryu:
You're right. None of us had ever been on a plane. My parents had, of
course, but not us. I'd been on a train, but not on an airplane. I don't
have motion sickness, I still don't, so I was fine. I was really excited
to be on a plane for the first time, you know, the food and a movie, so
that was really good. I mean, I felt really bad for my sister, but
before then I didn't even know people can get sick, you know, by being
on a plane. But she got sick, and I think my youngest brother also got a
little sick, but she was the sickest. But I remember being really happy.
But I remember landing in Guam, and the airport was such that you land
and you walk down the airplane, the stairs, to the outside. You know,
it's not like LAX, where you go indoors. And Guam is very, very humid.
And we landed in the evening, so I remember coming out of the door,
standing on top of the stairs, and this heat just hit me, you know. This
moist heat just hit me, and I remember almost like gasping for breath,
because it was very different from Seoul, you know, where there's very
little humidity. So I remember that feeling, thinking, wow, it's really
sticky here.
00:11:51
Chung Ryu:
And in our car ride to the house or wherever we were staying, I remember
asking, "Where's Seoul? Where's Disneyland? Are we going to pass
Disneyland on the way?" And I think that was the first time my dad said,
"You actually have to fly a few hours more to get there." And I remember
being very disappointed, and I might have felt a little like I was
misled at that moment.
00:12:17
Cline:
Betrayed.
00:12:17
Chung Ryu:
Yes, but you know, in those days we really didn't complain to our
parents. You don't talk back, you don't complain, so I'm sure I didn't
say anything.
00:12:30
Cline:
Right. So what was it like for you being in an area, and certainly in a
school where you were, in fact, the only Koreans, other than members of
your family, seeing, I imagine, different kinds of people, being in a
totally new and strange situation? What was that like?
00:12:47
Chung Ryu:
Most of the kids in school, as well as the teachers, were of Guamanian
descent, because Guam is a Catholic island, because it was settled by
the Spaniards, and they don't look that different from me. I immediately
became very dark and my hair got long, so I looked like an island girl,
because I have the kind of skin where I could become dark without
getting burned, so on the outside it wasn't too big of a shock, because
everybody had black hair or dark brown hair and brown eyes, so just like
me, so that wasn't a shock. I actually had more of a culture shock when
I moved to California, because I had never seen so many, basically,
white people in one place, so that was more of that type of a culture
shock. But in Guam I thought it was a great challenge, actually, to
learn a new language. I actually did not have a difficult time at all,
and I was looking forward to learning and becoming proficient.
00:13:56
Chung Ryu:
And as I shared in the last interview, I always wanted to be an excellent
student, and so for me it was like a new challenge to prove myself. And
I enjoy language, I actually do, so I really did not--I don't remember
being embarrassed because I didn't speak, and everybody was so nice.
Guamanians are really nice, kind people. They don't have a mean bone in
their body, from my recollection of it. And the school gave me a
seatmate who could help me, you know, and would help me write things
down, because everything--basically, I'm literally copying things,
because I don't understand what they're saying, so I literally had to
spell the word, and then write that word per spelling, not because I
knew the word, and I'm sure my seatmates probably didn't want to get
assigned to sit next to me.
00:15:03
Chung Ryu:
I remember going out to the playground during recess. Of course I didn't
know how to say, "Well, can I go on the swing?" or, you know, "Can
somebody push me?" or even like that. But I remember just kind of
standing next to a swing, and the girl or the guy who was on the swing
would get off and like motion for me to get on. So there were a lot of
kids who were very nice, trying to be friendly and helpful, and all the
teachers were very nice.
00:15:34
Chung Ryu:
But let me share with you something that happened the first day with me,
because we were all taken to our classrooms by the principal after we
met with her in the morning. They had never had foreigners in their
school who couldn't speak English, because remember, we're the first
Korean family. Before that they didn't have a lot of immigrants there,
and I think the construction boom had started, and that's why they
started getting Koreans, Japanese, Filipino workers. Before then they
were all just tourists, you know, who didn't send their kids to school.
So we were the first. It was very new, and I was sent to my class, and I
think she probably did roll call, and she was doing some paperwork, the
teacher. And I needed to go to the restroom, okay? And you know, being
brought up in Korea, you have to show a lot of respect. You don't move
from your seat until you have permission. Well, I didn't know how to ask
to go to the bathroom, because my dad didn't teach us that. So I was
thinking, well, I can't just walk out. So I was watching her, trying to
figure out, well, how am I going to do this, right? And then I noticed
sometimes the kids would walk up to her. They would say something to her
and she would nod her head, and then they would walk out. So pretty soon
I figure, you know, they're probably asking to go to the bathroom,
right? And I noticed that the teacher wasn't even really looking up. She
really wasn't paying attention that much. Kids would come up, but she
was really busy doing some paperwork or something.
00:17:09
Chung Ryu:
So you know, I just went up to her and I just said gibberish. I just made
up words that didn't make any sense, that I thought may sound like
English, and I don't even remember what. They were just like, you know,
how a baby would talk, yes. So I just made up some long phrase, and then
she nodded her head. She didn't even look up, and so I walked out. Then
I followed somebody, you know, walking down the hallway, a girl, and I
eventually ended up in the restroom, and that's how I--
00:17:43
Cline:
You could have spoke Korean, it wouldn't have mattered.
00:17:46
Chung Ryu:
Yes, I guess so, yes. So it was really funny. But I was desperate, you
know, but I remember that.
00:17:57
Cline:
It must have been interesting for them, too, though, because I mean,
Korean, it's not only a different spoken language, but a completely
different written language, so a challenge for everyone.
00:18:07
Chung Ryu:
Right. Yes, indeed. I think we were sent to remedial classes, too. I
think, looking back, we were sent to these special classes, right, to
help us, and I think it was remedial classes for students who had a
difficult time. But in the end it didn't really matter. I mean, they
really didn't know. We were kind of like an experiment to them. They
were accommodating us, and accepting us to their school, so it was
different.
00:18:40
Cline:
Yes. What was it like having your father at home all the time?
00:18:46
Chung Ryu:
It turned out he's really strict. And you know, I realized my mom pretty
much let us do what we wanted before. But he worked a lot still, but you
know, he was really strict, and I didn't have any problem with that,
because to be honest, I was such a square, you know. I never really did
anything wrong. I studied hard all the time. You know, I didn't like go
out and play till dark, and didn't come back in time for dinner. I mean,
I didn't do any--so I never got into trouble. But I remember my brothers
getting into trouble for staying out too late, you know, and they're not
used to getting in trouble for things like that.
00:19:29
Chung Ryu:
I also remember just going to a lot of parties. My dad was in business,
construction, and he got to know a lot of the people in Guam that he was
doing business with. You know, it's such a small island that if you own
a major, or run a major company, you get to know the governor, the
senators, everybody. So my parents would entertain a lot, or they would
go to a lot of parties. The company would have parties for its workers,
you know, so we actually went to a lot of things, or had a lot of people
come over all the time. So I remember--and that was new, you know. We
really didn't socialize that way before. So that's something--and I
actually enjoyed that. But we did that a lot, too, so that was
different.
00:20:27
Cline:
What about a new house, new food?
00:20:30
Chung Ryu:
Food, yes. Well, it was a challenge to get and make Korean food in Guam,
because as you may know, one of our staples is kimchee, and you know,
with kimchee you make a lot of other dishes, like the casserole, the
fried rice and all that, and in order to make those, you need kimchee to
be made from the Chinese cabbage, not the regular round cabbage, right?
Well, Chinese cabbage were very rare. It hardly ever arrived on the
island, probably because there wasn't really high demand until a lot of
Koreans and other Asians came. So I remember, like, it was very rare to
eat real kimchee, because most of the time we had to have that, we call
it American-cabbage kimchee, which didn't taste or feel the same in your
mouth, so we ate that. And whenever somebody found out that they got a
shipment of Chinese cabbage, all the Korean women would rush to the
supermarket, and they would buy all the Chinese cabbage, because you
don't know when's the next time they're going to get it. So I remember
those rushes to the supermarket to get the Chinese cabbage.
00:21:47
Chung Ryu:
And then, you know, other things, you know, people who went off the
island for, like, leave from work, or to vacation, they would always
bring back stuff for the rest of us, you know, like the bean paste and
the spicy paste, you know, chili paste and things like that. So for a
long time, we really didn't have much in terms of Korean food. I forgot
the other part of your question. It was food and something else.
00:22:16
Cline:
The house, the style of the house.
00:22:16
Chung Ryu:
Oh, the house. Well, you know, my dad was in construction, so every time
he would build like a new neighborhood, we had to move. So the five
years I lived there, we moved five times.
00:22:27
Cline:
Wow.
00:22:30
Chung Ryu:
So, except for the first house we lived in, which was just a regular
Guamanian house, which is a wood house placed on top of these big
concrete bricks, because if the houses are made of wood, you cannot be
on the ground, because it's humid, so all would rot. So they all had to
be elevated, unless it's a concrete house. And my dad was building, you
know, these tract homes in different places, and whenever he's done with
one section, before anybody else, before it even went on the market to
be sold, we were the guinea pigs. We had to move, and so we were always
the first family in that neighborhood. And the last place we lived in,
it was a huge development with lots of houses, two condos, and a lot of
things, and we were the first. You know, first phase gets done, then we
move in, right? And the other phases were still being built. And I
remember riding my bicycle like at dusk, you know, when it was starting
to get dark. I remember riding around all the streets just to see if
there were lights on in any of the houses, to see if anybody moved in,
because we were like the only family for maybe like a month or two. So I
remember that happening almost every year.
00:23:52
Cline:
Wow. Hard to make friends in your neighborhood that way.
00:23:56
Chung Ryu:
Except we were just going to the same school. Yes, it was hard. You're
right, it was hard to make friends.
00:24:02
Cline:
And what about school friends? Obviously, you start to get your English
skills gradually improving, but what about friends at school?
00:24:11
Chung Ryu:
You know what? I don't remember like having play dates or anything like
that. You know, my kids these days, you know, you have play dates, you
have parties and all that. I don't know if it was just us, or maybe just
the Guamanian culture in the early seventies, but I don't remember going
to kids' birthday parties. Maybe I wasn't invited, and I didn't know.
But I remember having my first birthday party ever in my whole life
after I got to Guam, and I have pictures, and I was actually wearing the
traditional Korean costume dress, and I have no idea why I was wearing
that for my birthday, because what normal kid would want to wear that at
her birthday party? But maybe my parents wanted to kind of demonstrate
the cultural thing.
00:24:59
Chung Ryu:
So I remember having, it was my first ever birthday party. I remember
having that, and I don't remember the people that were there. There were
some kids in the picture, but I have no idea who they were, so they
might have been my father's business friends' kids. But we did socialize
a lot with other Korean families--
00:25:23
Cline:
Once they came in.
00:25:23
Chung Ryu:
--once they came in, and that's probably whom I made friends with, and I
had some slumber parties and things like that, but they were other
Korean kids. But you know, I left there when I was almost fifteen, so I
only stayed there for five years.
00:25:41
Cline:
Right. And you're going to a Catholic school, but did you go to church or
anything regularly?
00:25:44
Chung Ryu:
No. My parents were not religious at all. But that's where I learned
about the Bible and about God and all that, because before that I had no
idea. You know, I went to the Buddhist temple with my grandparents. So I
learned a lot, because we had mandatory, you know, religion class, and
then we got extra credit for going to early mass and doing these
processions at certain times of the year. And, of course, you know, I
wanted to get the extra credit, so I would go to every single mass that
I would get credit for. But I think I was also very interested, you
know. The more I learned the English and religion, I was more
interested.
00:26:27
Chung Ryu:
But I did have a very negative experience, and that is, you know,
Catholics, they have communion at every mass. And my school was attached
to the main diocese. There was one bishop on the island, and the church
that housed him, our school was attached to that church. So it's a huge
church, and we actually lined up to receive communion, as opposed to it
being passed, and I had done this all the time, you know, I mean,
because I'd just follow people. I had no idea what receiving communion
meant. I had no idea. I probably didn't even speak English that well.
But I remember being in line to receive communion one time, and one
sister, who was not even one of my teachers, she came and pulled me out
of line in front of hundreds of people, and she said I cannot receive
communion. She probably knew that I wasn't Christian, or received God or
something. So it probably was that it was inappropriate, because I
wasn't even baptized then. I mean, who knows. I don't know what the real
standard is in Catholic church--
00:27:28
Cline:
Yes, although how would she know?
00:27:30
Chung Ryu:
--but she pulled me out, you know, like forcibly removed me, because I'm
sure I was surprised, and I didn't readily go with her, because it was a
surprise. But I remember she pulled me out of line, and told me I could
not receive communion again, so I think probably after that I didn't.
But I remember being shocked at that.
00:27:48
Cline:
Sure.
00:27:51
Chung Ryu:
Yes, so. But everybody else was really nice. You know, I learned English
well there, and all the kids were really nice. I did form lasting
friendships, even though I didn't really socialize with them outside of
school. I did have good friends that I made, because I remember
communicating with them for several years after I left the island.
00:28:14
Cline:
We didn't talk much before about your relationship with your mother, and
here you are, your family dynamic has shifted somewhat. Your father's
home all the time. You've just alluded to the fact that your mom kind of
let you do what you wanted more. What was your relationship like with
your mother?
00:28:30
Chung Ryu:
My relationship with her has always been really good, but you know, she
and I are only twenty years, twenty-one years apart, and she always
looked really young, so I think in a lot of ways I kind of thought of
her not as like Mom in an authoritative figure kind of like, but more
like a supportive friend, but with just a little bit of authority type
of thing. My mom is still like that. She's more of a person who relies
on me for a lot of things, although she's very independent. But she
doesn't like making big decisions. She always consults, you know, me
now. But she's always been a really supportive person. She's very also
cheerful, cheerful in nature, and she's always like that. I've never
really heard her complain about things, even though I'm sure it was
really hard for her in a lot of ways. She never complained, and she
followed my dad, you know. Whatever he thought we should do, she
followed him. I don't really remember her ever disagreeing with him, at
least not in front of the kids. Yes.
00:30:06
Chung Ryu:
But I remember kind of realizing, gee, she really has no power anymore,
because my dad, you know, if she said yes and he said no, well, his no
controlled. It's not like you could negotiate, you know. So I think soon
we figured out that if we wanted to do something like go to a dance, or
sleep over at somebody's, or go watch a movie or something like that, we
always had to get his permission, because her permission really could be
overridden at any time by my dad's. And I think growing up in that kind
of very, you know, paternalistic type of environment--not that--my dad
has always been very supportive of me. He actually was not a
chauvinistic kind of a person. I actually never saw him--because he
liked to cook. He wasn't the kind of man who said, "I don't cook because
I'm a man." You know, he cleaned the house, made us clean, too, but he
wasn't like, "I don't clean house," you know, that type of thing. And he
never said, "Well, you shouldn't go to college, because you're a girl."
He was never like that. So he wasn't a chauvinist that a lot of Korean
fathers could have been, but he was definitely in control. He was the
boss. He was boss of his company and all the workers, and he was the
boss at home.
00:31:30
Chung Ryu:
And I think that later on when I grew up, I did not want to be married to
somebody who was going to be that bossy, and who would control me, too,
you know, that I wouldn't have any decision-making power, so I think
that impacted me down the road, you know, when it was time for me to
figure out a relationship that I wanted to have and who I would marry,
what kind of person I would marry.
00:31:57
Cline:
You mentioned cleaning. In our last interview you talked about how you
had people who worked at your home. So this is a difference now? You've
got chores it sounds like.
00:32:07
Chung Ryu:
Yes, we did. Oh, my gosh.
00:32:09
Cline:
And you said you wanted to do them at the time when you were Seoul. How
was that?
00:32:13
Chung Ryu:
You know, even to this day I don't mind cleaning. In fact, I don't like
cooking, but I like cleaning. But you're right. We did not have, you
know, like a maid, a person who lived with us fulltime to do that. So we
had to start cleaning, and then whenever we had guests coming over, oh,
my gosh, it's like we all had to clean. You know, even my brothers, who
were probably really young, had to take--you know, everybody had a room
that they were in charge of, bathroom, bedroom, and my dad was very
anal. I'm anal, but I mean, it had to be really clean. So I remember
getting our chores. Probably during the day, maybe my mom picked up and
stuff, but we weren't allowed to be messy either, so our house never got
messy. My dad does not like messiness.
00:33:06
Chung Ryu:
And I remember having to pull weeds. Oh, that was the worst chore. I
didn't mind cleaning that much. But one time we lived on this hill at
this house, and we had a huge yard, just grass. And you know, in Guam
weeds grow everywhere. I mean, you can't really have grass grass. It's
an impossibility, because it's an island, it's humid. Things grow really
easily, you know. And Sunday morning like at eight o'clock we would have
to get up early--my dad would wake us up--and we would have to, like,
form a line, kind of like the people who work in a rice patch, you know,
they all form a line. And we would go straight down that line, and we
had to pull all the weeds that we find along that line. And you know, I
must have been, what, by that time twelve? So my brothers were eleven
and nine. Can you imagine nine- and eleven-year-old boys? And we would
do that for like two hours. And I would notice like the kids in our
neighborhood, they're riding their bikes and stuff. You know, Guam
people are so laid back, they wouldn't do yard work. I mean, they don't
maintain. Nobody cares about landscaping and all that. I mean, my dad
had to have a beautiful garden, you know, because he also loved plants.
And I remember thinking, they probably think we're really strange,
because here we are, and my dad was probably being thoughtful in a
sense, because we got up early to pull weeds before the sun got really
hot, because you know, it would get really hot during the day. So he
made us do it early in the morning, you know, so we don't get sunburned
in the afternoon. But you know, that was really hard for us to do that.
But we were expected to do stuff like that. We didn't complain. We
weren't allowed to complain about it. But I remember doing things like
that.
00:35:00
Chung Ryu:
And then later on when my dad had more workers come--I think at one time
he probably had like 500 construction workers and a lot of office
people, and then he had to then create a kitchen with kitchen staff, so
the workers can come and eat food, you know, and they had to be given a
lot of Korean food, because they would miss Korean food, and I'm sure
that you will have disgruntled workers and all that, homesick people. So
he actually had brought a lot of ladies who would staff the kitchen, and
they would live in these dorms at the headquarters, and then they would
work. So then when we had these big parties, we would have one or two of
those ladies come and they would cook, and sometimes they would also
help clean, help clean the house. So in that sense, we did get help
later, but we didn't have like even a regular cleaning lady. We cleaned
the house, yes. We all had to make beds before we went to school, so our
house was always organized.
00:36:00
Cline:
Wow. Did you get homesick?
00:36:03
Chung Ryu:
No. I remember, you know, going back and seeing my family members, but I
don't remember being homesick.
00:36:14
Cline:
Interesting. What about Western cultural manifestations? Do you remember
seeing, like, TV, or hearing music or anything? We're in the early
seventies now, and in the shadow of a big Air Force base. Anything that
you remember?
00:36:34
Chung Ryu:
I remember I loved The Brady Bunch. [Cline laughs] And you might hear
this from actually a lot of Korean Americans, because we're trying to
find, what is like the ideal American family, you know, to strive for,
be like? We wanted to assimilate. I remember watching The Brady Bunch,
and I don't remember if it was actually in Guam or on the mainland. But
I remember thinking, even though they were not a typical American family
if you think about it, you know, two divorced parents mixing their kids
together, but I remember thinking, god, what a great family, because,
you know, Dad would always be happy. I think he was an architect, too,
now that I think about it, and my dad was an architect. But he was
always cheerful. He wasn't under a lot of stress like my dad. Mom and
Dad [in the Brady Bunch] would always hug and kiss, greet each other. My
parents never showed affection in front of us. And they always seemed to
discuss things, even if some kid did something wrong, for disciplinary
things. They would discuss it and agree, and they had respect for each
other's opinions and decisions, you know, not contradict each other, all
that kind of stuff. And I remember thinking, god, what a great, great
family, you know, that they had.
00:37:54
Chung Ryu:
You know, music and things like that, I was kind of young. But my sister
was a teenager, and I remember listening to a lot of music that she
listened to, so I'm actually still a real big oldies fan. I love music
from the sixties and seventies. So I don't know any really--a lot of the
new stars, you know, singers or music. My dad would take us to movies.
You know, in Guam everything was like a month or two delayed, movies,
and maybe even like TV shows or something, because I don't even know
what kind of cable they had there. So I remember, you know, watching
some movies, things like that.
00:38:41
Chung Ryu:
But, you know, my sister and I both had issues with school dances and my
dad. I remember in eighth grade there was a school dance, and it was in
the evening, which is when the schools would have dances. Well, my dad
didn't understand why you would even have a dance at school, why that
would be part of school activity, because he never grew up with that
kind of stuff, and he didn't understand on top of that why it would be
at night, you know, and they're kids. And I remember finally by eighth
grade I talked him into letting me go, but I remember it barely started
and my dad came to pick me up, and he actually walked onto the dance
floor when I was dancing with somebody. And you know, it would have been
less painful if he sent one of my brothers to get me, instead of him
like coming onto that. It's not like he did anything really
embarrassing. He just kind of said, "Time to go," and then I had to
leave, and I think we just started. You know, you have to warm up and
all that, get courage to ask each other to dance, and then I had to
leave.
00:39:44
Chung Ryu:
And then my sister it was even bigger, because she had a prom, you know,
and this boy in our neighborhood, Guamanian boy--there were no Korean
boys her age--had asked her to go to the prom, and she was just so
excited. I think it was her first ever school dance, too, and she was
kind of a shy person, so it was a big deal for her to even like get
somebody to ask her. So she went and picked out this dress with my mom
or somebody, and it was a halter dress, because in the mid-seventies
that's what a lot of people wore.
00:40:26
Cline:
Yes, that's what was happening, right.
00:40:26
Chung Ryu:
And it was a halter, but it wasn't like really low or anything. I mean,
it did show the back, but hardly any, and it wasn't even low cut in the
front. My sister knew that my dad might have a problem, because she was
actually very shocked that he gave her permission to go. She went to his
office after she got the dress. She showed him the dress, and he said,
"That's fine, you can wear that dress." Well, the night of the prom she
came out with her dress on, and my dad saw her and said, "You can't go
to the prom in that dress."
00:40:58
Cline:
Right, because now it's on her, right, that's probably the
difference?
00:41:01
Chung Ryu:
Oh, my god, I guess so. I mean, who knew? You know, I was only--how old
was I? So if she was like seventeen, maybe eighteen, so that means I was
only eleven, twelve, so I really didn't know that much. But I remember
like I was thinking, you can't say she can't go when you already told
her she could go. And I thought it was really unfair when he had already
seen the dress. Well, if he'd had any reservations, he should have asked
her to try it on.
00:41:31
Cline:
Yes, exactly.
00:41:31
Chung Ryu:
And you know, you can't lead somebody into thinking they can wear it and
go to this dance and say no. And the boy came to pick her up, and she
had to tell him that she couldn't go.
00:41:39
Cline:
Oh, man.
00:41:39
Chung Ryu:
And I remember she was in the garage in his car. She was crying in the
car, because I kept going out to check on her. And I think finally
though, my dad did let her go, because I remember her going. Actually, I
don't know if she just went anyway. That would have been really
surprising, because she never disobeyed, but I remember her going, and
then after that it wasn't a big deal. But I remember thinking that
really wasn't right, yes. So those were kind of the things that we had
to go through, adjustment for my dad as well as ourselves.
00:42:19
Cline:
Yes, really. So how did the decision come about to have you leave Guam
and go to the mainland?
00:42:29
Chung Ryu:
Well, my sister graduated from high school. There's one college or
university in Guam, called University of Guam. But I think my dad
realized they didn't provide a great education, and my sister's English
wasn't as good for her to just, I think, take regular classes and do
well. So he actually enrolled her in a small private college called Holy
Names [College], in Oakland [California]. It's right next to Mills
College, and they had a lot of foreign students there, too, so they had
special English classes and all that. So he actually let her come to the
mainland by herself, and she lived in the dorms, of course. So she
started college by herself in the mainland, and I think he chose Holy
Names, well, first because it's a small college. But he had a good
friend, a business friend who lived in the Bay Area, and he thought
that, you know, she can go there during holidays, they'll kind of keep
an eye on her, so that's how we settled in Northern California, because
of them.
00:43:35
Chung Ryu:
So she was living and going to Holy Names, and then when I graduated from
high school my dad sent me to California to live with my sister, so I
could, when I started--yes, I'm about to start high school--so I could
go to high school in the mainland, because I think he realized that
education in Guam, the level wasn't as high as he would like, and that
he knew that I would have to go to high school in mainland in order to
go to a good university here. So he sent me over when I was fifteen,
almost sixteen. So my sister--he bought us a townhouse in this little
town called Moraga, California, so she and I lived alone, I think, for a
year or two. She was twenty-one, I was fifteen, so she was actually--I
guess she qualified to be a legal guardian. So she signed all my
permission slips and everything from school.
00:44:37
Chung Ryu:
But that was--although I looked forward to that transition, you know, I'm
the kind of person who liked to experience new places--but that was a
little bit hard, because I really missed my mom. Yes, I think being
fifteen you're still really young.
00:44:49
Cline:
Yes, sure. Wow, and changes are happening.
00:44:50
Chung Ryu:
And I wasn't used to, you know, my sister being the boss of me. And she
was very conservative, you know. I guess she felt a lot of
responsibility, so I couldn't do a lot. You know, I was thinking, gee,
this is just almost as bad as Dad, you know.
00:45:08
Cline:
Well, that was her role model, whether she wanted it to be or not.
00:45:11
Chung Ryu:
Right. So, you know, but it was a fun time also. It was a good time,
because my sister and I didn't really have a relationship prior to that,
you know. We never really--even though we were sisters, we're six years
apart, so that's one big impediment. But we never really had time for
just two of us to really talk or anything, so during the time that we
lived together, we actually got really close, and you know, obviously we
did everything together. She really couldn't do stuff on her own,
because in hindsight I was thinking, it wasn't just hard for me. It was
hard for her, because she had a lot of friends that she had made at Holy
Names, and she was still going there, but I'm sure she couldn't do a lot
of stuff with them, because she had to watch me. Yes, she probably
didn't think she could just leave me alone. Even though I was old enough
to stay by myself, she probably didn't think she could do that.
00:46:07
Chung Ryu:
So I remember, you know, going to grocery shopping with her, watching an
R-rated movie with her. Yes, we watched Shampoo, and I was thinking--I
was so embarrassed. I think my sister didn't realize how odd it was, and
I was so embarrassed watching that movie. She and I recently talked
about that. She said, "I really didn't know what that movie was about,
but everybody was talking about it, so I wanted to see it, and you were
with me, so I took you with me."
00:46:39
Cline:
Wow, interesting.
00:46:39
Chung Ryu:
Yes. So we had a lot of, you know--we spent a lot of good time
together.
00:46:47
Cline:
I'm going to want to hear more about that when we get together next time,
and your impressions upon coming to California when you first got here,
what that was like for you personally as a cultural and personal
experience. One last question. Here you are, you're basically having
this Catholic education. Your parents were not Catholic. Did they have
any feelings that you were aware of regarding the religious training you
were getting?
00:47:18
Chung Ryu:
Not that I know of. We never talked about it.
00:47:22
Cline:
Interesting.
00:47:22
Chung Ryu:
Yes, we never talked about it. I think we just saw it as a way to get the
best education possible in Guam. But later on, after they moved to the
mainland, you know, they did convert to Christianity, so I don't know
how that happened. So maybe there was something, you know, that got
started in Guam. I'm sure we talked about, my brothers and my sister, we
talked about stuff we learned at school, so maybe that planted something
in their mind. But they weren't religious to start with.
00:47:59
Cline:
I see.
00:47:59
Chung Ryu:
You know, when I went to temples and things like that, it was with my
grandparents. I don't think my parents really went with me. It was
something I did with my grandparents, so I don't think my parents were
very religious to start with.
00:48:13
Cline:
Right. Okay. Well, I want to definitely hear more about what happens when
you get to the mainland.
00:48:22
Chung Ryu:
This is great. We're actually taking breaks at good points.
00:48:24
Cline:
Yes, exactly. And it's a time when you're becoming a woman, and you're on
your own. You're away from your mom. You're now developing this
relationship with your sister, living in the Bay Area. It's very
interesting, so I look forward to continuing the story. Thank you for
your time.
00:48:41
Chung Ryu:
All right, thank you.
00:48:42
Cline:
It's back to the courtroom for you.
[End of interview]
00:00:00
Cline:
Today is August twenty-seventh, 2008. This is Alex Cline, once again
interviewing Judge Tammy Chung Ryu in her chambers at the Compton County
Courthouse. Good afternoon.
00:00:17
Chung Ryu:
Good afternoon.
00:00:19
Cline:
Thank you for taking some time once again. Last time we got up to the
point where you were going to leave Guam for the mainland to go to high
school, and you were going to do this traveling without your parents, to
go join your older half sister in the Bay Area. I had one follow-up
question that I wanted to ask, that I didn't want to forget to ask. You
mentioned last time that your father initially was teaching you
English.
00:00:55
Chung Ryu:
Right.
00:00:55
Cline:
How was his English?
00:01:00
Chung Ryu:
His English was pretty good. He could converse in English pretty well. He
also spoke Japanese, because he grew up under Japanese occupation, so he
spoke Korean, Japanese, and English. You know, at that time I probably
couldn't tell you how well he spoke, because I didn't know how to speak
English, but it's good enough to converse, and he did business in
English, so I'm assuming he's good enough. But I think over time his
English has gotten worse.
00:01:37
Cline:
Really.
00:01:40
Chung Ryu:
Yes, because now when I talk to him on the phone, probably because he's
not speaking it that much, because he's retired and he lives in Korea
now, so when I speak to him, I used to be able to speak to him in
English only, and that would have been just fine, but now I feel that I
have to try to speak in Korean more. And written communication is hard,
because he writes to me in Korean, and then I write to him in English,
and I'm not sure if he understands everything that I say or I write to
him.
00:02:15
Cline:
Yes, this is a pretty common situation, and it's hard for me to imagine
how questionable your whole communication quality must be. So he learned
English in school in Korea then?
00:02:31
Chung Ryu:
Yes, I'm assuming so, because, you know, English is required. And he
worked in Vietnam for a long time, but I think he dealt mostly with
people who spoke English. I'm not sure if he took classes or not, but he
was in Guam one year before we joined him, and I think his English was
pretty good now that I think back, enough to converse. And the things
that he was teaching us initially were very fundamental things, you
know, simple things, so that probably wasn't really hard for him.
00:03:08
Cline:
Right, okay. So how was your English by the time you were getting ready
to leave Guam after about five years in school there?
00:03:19
Chung Ryu:
I think it was pretty good. I probably wouldn't have known it if it
wasn't.
00:03:24
Cline:
Yes. I mean, did you find out when you got to the mainland?
00:03:29
Chung Ryu:
Yes, nobody made fun of me. Nobody made fun of my accent, so I'm not sure
if I really had an accent, and I didn't feel like I couldn't communicate
because I didn't know the language well enough, and I did well
academically in high school, so I'm assuming that by the time I moved
over here, which was five years since I moved to Guam, because I spent
five years there, that I was pretty proficient. When you're young like
that, it's easier, I think, and people say it's true that you learn a
language much faster than if you were older.
00:04:15
Cline:
Oh yes. So you described last time how you were actually excited, and
didn't have much nervousness or regret about leaving Korea for Guam.
What about leaving Guam for the mainland, particularly without your mom?
What was that like for you, in terms of your feelings?
00:04:34
Chung Ryu:
I think I was mostly positive about it. I don't remember, you know,
crying about it, or not wanting to go at all. I do remember I was
actually looking forward to starting school, because I arrived there in
the middle of summer. My whole family came to get us settled--
00:05:01
Cline:
Oh, okay.
00:05:01
Chung Ryu:
--and I remember, we stayed at a hotel in Berkeley. I don't know why we
were so far away from where we were going to settle, but you know, my
parents bought a townhouse for me and my sister to live in, in Moraga,
California, so we got all settled. I guess he probably did whatever he
needed to do to enroll me in school. But after they left, I still had I
think at least two or three weeks before school started, and my parents
bought me a bicycle so I can ride to school. And I remember riding my
bicycle down to the school while nobody was there, because it was still
summer vacation, and I would walk around the school, just waiting for
the day that it would start. That's how excited and anxious I was. I was
really looking forward to it.
00:05:51
Chung Ryu:
I think it's because I also knew that I was going to end up in the
mainland, that Guam was actually kind of a temporary place, that I would
go to college in the mainland, so this was just a step toward it, and I
think I realized even at that age--well, I was old enough to know, I
guess; I was fifteen--that I really needed to get a good education to be
competitive in the mainland, you know, big-time universities. And I
don't remember being nervous about being away from my parents. I do
remember missing my mom a lot, and my brothers, but it wasn't so much so
that, you know, I would cry myself to sleep or anything like that.
Yes.
00:06:43
Chung Ryu:
One thing was later on when school started, I realized I really wasn't
well prepared culturally for that transition, because I mentioned
briefly before that in Guam I didn't really feel like there was a huge
cultural transition, because Guamanians actually, you know, they're
island people, so they have black or dark hair. There isn't that much
difference in terms of the way we look, in terms of skin color or hair
color, eye color. But especially in Moraga, which is a suburb of the San
Francisco Bay Area, it's mostly Caucasian. I think it's like 90 percent,
very like that. And it was the first time that I actually was surrounded
by so many Caucasians at one place, and I had never seen so many
blonde-haired, you know, blue-eyed people before in my whole life, so it
was almost like I just immigrated to the United States, you know, and it
really wasn't, but that's how I felt.
00:07:46
Chung Ryu:
I really felt different. I felt like I looked so different, and that I
even spoke differently. I think I might have had like a Guamanian type
of--you know, the island people have this sing-song kind of tone to the
way they speak, and I think I had to be careful. I realized quickly that
I had to kind of speak in a little different way, not that I had a
Korean accent. It was more like an island accent, I guess.
00:08:17
Cline:
Interesting.
00:08:18
Chung Ryu:
Yes. I remember walking to class, and I was passing by some windows. Our
school had buildings, but they were one-story units, so you would go
outdoors to go to another unit, like a building. So I remember passing
by and seeing a reflection of somebody when I glanced to the side, and I
thought, wow, that person looked really different. And then I realized
it was my reflection that I saw, and that I commented in my head that,
wow, she looks kind of different from everybody else that I saw at
school. And I remember that hitting me like a brick, like, you know,
wow, I am different. I look different. I'm really different from most
people that are in my school. You know, there were no Koreans in my town
or in my school. There was one other Chinese family, and that's it. No
other Asians that I knew of, at least not till I was a junior in high
school. Yes.
00:09:28
Cline:
So what was the trip from Guam to the mainland like, and once you got to
the mainland, what were your early impressions?
00:09:39
Chung Ryu:
Well, we came on a plane.
00:09:45
Cline:
Right, a long flight.
00:09:46
Chung Ryu:
Yes, a long flight. We had to stop in Hawaii, because there were no
direct flights from Guam to California, or to anywhere else. You had to
either stop in Hawaii, Philippines, Japan, or Korea. So for us, we
stopped in Hawaii. My sister was, I think, already here. You know, she
was attending Holy Names College [now University] in Oakland, so my
whole family came over to get us settled in. I remember spending like
the first month with my sister, you know, looking for Korean markets and
Korean restaurants that were closest to our house. So there weren't
really any in the East Bay where we lived, in Contra Costa County. So my
sister and I always had to drive out to Oakland to get any Korean food
or Korean groceries. Otherwise, we would have to go into the city, to
San Francisco, and there was like one or two Korean restaurants in
Oakland and in San Francisco. Well, times have changed a lot, but when I
first got there it was like that. There was a tiny grocery store in
Oakland for Korean foods. My sister was a good cook, though, so we'd go
grocery shopping, and we never had to really eat out or order a lot of
food, take outs, because she was a good cook.
00:11:08
Cline:
What about non-Korean food? What was your experience with that like,
including perhaps going to an American supermarket?
00:11:20
Chung Ryu:
Well, you know, Guam had the supermarkets, probably not as full as the
supermarkets in mainland. I loved American food. Okay. Well, I love
Italian food, but at that time I thought it was American, because I
loved spaghetti, and I loved pizza, and later on I discovered ravioli,
tortellini, all that. And even to this day, I love Korean food, but my
next favorite food would be Italian. So, you know, my sister made those
type of American food, too, and later on I learned to make simple things
like spaghetti. My sister could make really good lasagna from scratch. I
remember her making those when we were growing up. Yes, I'm not a real
hot dog and hamburgers person, especially now that I'm older and I'm
health conscious.
00:12:20
Cline:
Right.
00:12:20
Chung Ryu:
Yes, but I think we ate a lot of Korean food.
00:12:27
Cline:
Yes. Well, that's interesting. First off, what was the name of the high
school you were going to, and where was it?
00:12:36
Chung Ryu:
It was in Moraga, California. It's called Campolindo High School. There's
only one high school in town. It's a town, it's not even a city, so we
didn't have like city council or mayor. We were one of three small
towns, Lafayette, Orinda, and Moraga. So if you are coming from like say
Berkeley or Oakland or San Francisco, you go through that tunnel, the
Caldecott Tunnel. As soon as you get out, the first three towns would be
those three.
00:13:08
Cline:
Right. And we're talking the seventies now. There's still, I think, in
Berkeley at that time a fairly strong remainder of the sixties culture.
Do you remember anything about where popular culture was at that time,
or are you just kind of buried in the school life?
00:13:27
Chung Ryu:
I graduated from high school in '79, and while I was going to high school
there, '75 to '79, my sister and I would venture out a lot to, you know,
eat Korean food and stuff, but not to Berkeley. So I didn't really know
that much about Berkeley, and I think maybe the only time I saw Berkeley
was when we stayed at the hotel, and I forgot the name of the hotel.
It's really famous. It's the big white hotel on College [Avenue], I
think.
00:13:58
Cline:
Oh, the Claremont [Hotel].
00:14:00
Chung Ryu:
The Claremont, yes, we stayed at the Claremont. I remember thinking, god,
this is an old building, because the floors would creak. But they had a
really beautiful rose garden, nice tennis courts I remember. So I think
my dad took us to visit the campus when we were staying there. But you
know, I'd just come to California, so I didn't really remember. So we
never went to Berkeley, so the first time I really experienced Berkeley
was when I started going there in '79.
00:14:31
Cline:
Oh, okay. Well, we'll get there. So how long was the period when you and
your sister were just living together before the rest of your family
joined you on the mainland?
00:14:46
Chung Ryu:
Two years. So I think after two years, after I became a junior, my mom
and my two younger brothers came to join us. My father, I think, went to
work in Kuwait.
00:15:07
Cline:
Oh, really.
00:15:07
Chung Ryu:
Yes. I think his business didn't do well, so he had to close his
construction company. There were some big typhoons that hit the island
that were really bad, and then I think there was the big recession. Yes,
so he couldn't sell all those houses he built, especially the last big
tract homes, set of tract homes with condominiums and all that. So I
think he basically went bankrupt at that time, and had to go back to
working for other companies. So he went to work for another Korean
construction company, and he had to go to Kuwait, and he was there. Yes,
he was there, and I don't think he joined us till I was a senior in high
school, probably more towards the middle of senior year.
00:15:58
Cline:
Wow. During the two years before the family members who did join you
joined you, it was just you and your sister. You're now at this
obviously very Caucasian suburban high school. You've said a little bit
about it, but what was it like for you particularly in terms of your
studies and what started to perhaps interest you, or what you excelled
at that might have determined your direction in life, if anything?
00:16:31
Chung Ryu:
I learned English really well, the written English. I had a really good
English teacher, I think ninth or tenth grade, and she really taught me
grammar, because I remember really finally going, wow, I understand it,
you know. I don't remember what grades I got, but I think they were
generally good. You know, I was a very studious, good Korean kid, and I
knew that the reason for me being there, living alone with my sister,
was so that I could do well in school, and so that I could get into a
good university. I think I kind of knew that, and I kind of wanted that
for myself, so I studied hard. I think socially, you know, it was not
hard, but I wasn't like the popular--I wasn't in the popular crowd. I
ended up being friends with the few Asians that came along, and probably
one of the few Jewish kids, too, except at that time I didn't know what
Jewish--that there were actually Jewish people. I didn't know.
00:17:51
Chung Ryu:
In fact, one of my closest friends, I didn't know that she was Jewish and
what that meant, except I knew that she didn't have a Christmas tree.
Every time we had Christmas, she didn't have a Christmas tree, and I
remember one year asking, "Julie, how come you guys don't have a
Christmas tree?" And she didn't give me the real answer. She just kind
of said, "Well, we're too busy," or something. And later on, after we
both started college we had a chance to get together, and she explained
to me that in Moraga there weren't a lot of Jewish people, you know, so
she felt very self-conscious, I guess, about being Jewish, and didn't
think people would understand what that meant, and so she avoided really
making a big deal, but, you know, telling people who she was.
00:18:45
Chung Ryu:
And I think, you know, it kind of works in a strange way. When you have
like a group of people who are a clear majority, and there are just a
few minorities, the minorities are accepted well, because I think they
don't pose a threat, you know, subconsciously or whatever, so they are
treated nicely. But instead of people wanting to find out more about
you, it's kind of like everybody just kind of tries to blend in. And I
thought for a long time that only applies to the people of color, who
are obviously of a different race, but it also applies to people like
Jewish people in certain neighborhoods or certain areas. In Moraga and
Northern California in a small town in the seventies, I guess that
wasn't something that was really common, and I didn't really understand
it till later. I remember asking, "Why didn't you just tell me? You
know, what is the big deal?" But I remember thinking, god, that was kind
of strange. Later on when I realized what I had asked, and what that
would have meant to her, I thought she should have given me a different
explanation, you know, something like, "Well, we don't believe in
Christmas." I mean, maybe that would have started a more question or
discussion that she just didn't want to get into.
00:20:20
Chung Ryu:
And all my friends turned out to be, you know, the smart kids, the
valedictorian and all that kind of stuff. So I remember, you know,
wanting to be popular. I tried out, me and my best friend tried out for
I think either pompom girls or cheerleader squad or something, and I
didn't make it, and I was thinking, gee, I'm never going to be in that
popular crowd, you know. And then I thought, well, my dad would probably
never let me go to all the football games and cheer there anyway, so it
probably worked out. But you know, I did social things with a close
group of friends, like four or five of them that I hung out with.
00:21:01
Chung Ryu:
The one thing I did notice though is that kids in the mainland could be
mean. You know, in Guam everybody's really nice, easy going. They really
are good at accepting people. I was never mistreated by people in my
high school. In fact, you know, I think I had a lot of people, I knew
they all liked me and all that, so when we went back for class reunion,
everything was pleasant. But I remember like there were boys who were
like making fun of certain girls, because they were not, you know,
pretty, or fat. You know, they would make faces when they walked by to
pick up the paper, you know, test scores from the teachers. I remember
seeing that, and I remember in the beginning thinking, god, this is
really strange, because I've never seen that kind of behavior. I've
never seen people actually make fun or say things about other people
that were like not nice. And I remember thinking, god, people in the
mainland are different. [laughs] You know, kids were kind of mean, and
they picked on people. Even though I looked different, I was never
picked on, but yes, I remember thinking that, and having to get used to
that.
00:22:28
Cline:
Interesting. You mentioned seeing the movie Shampoo last time. Any other
experiences, encounters with the current sort of popular culture that
were memorable?
00:22:44
Chung Ryu:
No. I think that was like the biggest thing, and I talked to my sister
recently and she said, because I go, "I can't believe you took me to
that movie." And she said, "Well, I didn't know how bad it was either. I
just heard it was good," you know, so she was kind of naive as well.
00:23:05
Cline:
So how was it when the rest of your family, I guess except for your
father, came to join you on the mainland, and how did that change
things?
00:23:15
Chung Ryu:
Yes, it was nice to have my mom there, my brothers. Maybe because we got
older and it's high school, things got much more hectic. So I kind of
think that we just kind of had to--like we were too busy fending for
ourselves. I don't know if it's because my dad wasn't there to provide
leadership and structure. I don't know if that was it. But I think at
least my youngest brother, who was a really smart kid, he started
hanging out with, like, not-so-smart kids, you know, because he really
wanted to get accepted. You know, it's a new place. So I remember him
being a concern, and there were a lot of discussions about who his
friends were, that they were not the studious types. So he ended up just
going to community college in the end, because he didn't have the
grades.
00:24:22
Cline:
You stayed in the same place then? You're all just staying in Moraga, and
they went to the same high school?
00:24:26
Chung Ryu:
Yes, we're still in Moraga. Right. We're still in Moraga. They went to
the same high school. Yes, my youngest might have been in the eighth
grade, so he might have gone to a different school to start, but I
remember us being in the same high school when I was a senior; they were
junior and freshman. I remember just being busy. You know, they say that
in the islands the life is slow, and in the mainland, life is really
fast, and I kind of remember just being really busy, taking care of
myself, you know, keeping up with my studies. I had to worry about
applying to college and that type of thing. And you know, we had lived
apart for a couple of years, so even though I went home during summers,
it kind of felt like we weren't as close, and we were no longer kids,
like little kids anymore. We were teenagers, and we each had to do our
own thing.
00:25:25
Chung Ryu:
So I kind of felt like--I look back and I don't really remember my
brothers, what they were doing during that time. I have more specific,
detailed, vivid memories of them like when we were in Korea or in Guam,
but I don't really have memories of them, which is strange because as
you get older you should remember more things, and I think it's because
we really didn't do much together. Yes.
00:25:48
Cline:
Right. And now you were closer with your older sister, your half sister
as well, which must have been a different dynamic.
00:25:50
Chung Ryu:
Right, that's probably another thing. And my brothers weren't close to
her, because you know, their age and also because they're a different
gender, and they never had the time with her like I did. Yes.
00:26:04
Cline:
So when you were going about making the decision about where to go to
college, what form did that take, and did you know at that point what
direction you might want to go in academically?
00:26:21
Chung Ryu:
I actually applied to only one college. That was [University of
California] Berkeley.
00:26:23
Cline:
Because it was nearby?
00:26:25
Chung Ryu:
Because it was nearby, and I knew that Berkeley was a good school, and
that's the only school I wanted to go. I really didn't think I had
options. You know, it's not like nowadays, where parents help you, you
know, you've got all these choices, and you apply to ten, fifteen
schools. At that time, well, my parents didn't help me at all, you know,
in applying. I remember my dad one time saying, "Hey, I heard of this
all-girls' college." I think it was Wellesley [College]. Yes. He said,
"You know, I heard of this really good school." And I said, "But Dad, I
don't want to go far," because I had never been to the East Coast then;
I don't think I've ever been east of L.A., you know. Okay, we went to
Yosemite. That's as far east as I got, and I didn't know anybody, and I
didn't want to go to an all-girls' college.
00:27:24
Chung Ryu:
I guess I could have thought of going to Stanford [University], because
it's kind of close by, but for some reason I had my heart set on
Berkeley, and that's the only school I wanted to go, and so I only
applied to Berkeley. Good thing I got in, because I don't know what
would have happened. I probably wouldn't know what other options I had
if I hadn't gotten in there. But you know, it was easier then than now,
yes.
00:27:48
Cline:
Yes, it's really hard now.
00:27:49
Chung Ryu:
So that's where I went, and I lived at home, too.
00:27:53
Cline:
Oh yes, you commuted.
00:27:55
Chung Ryu:
I commuted.
00:27:55
Cline:
So the girls' college idea makes me think of something I wanted to ask,
too, which is, you know, you're a teenager, you're in high school. What
about the whole boys thing? Were you just too studious for all that, or
what form was that taking? I mean, you didn't want to go to an
all-girls' school, so there must have been a reason.
00:28:21
Chung Ryu:
No. I mean, I liked boys. I mean, I did go to a junior prom with a
friend.
00:28:33
Cline:
I guess part of what I'm wondering is--
00:28:36
Chung Ryu:
Did I have any conflicts?
00:28:36
Cline:
Well, you didn't have any, for example, Asian guys to choose from, so how
would that have gone over with your parents, for example?
00:28:47
Chung Ryu:
Right. You know, by the time I was a junior we had one Korean family that
moved into Moraga, and I don't know how they heard of Moraga, because
they came directly from Korea, and they were so F.O.B. [fresh off the
boat], or FOB-ish. It was so amazing. I could tell from a mile away how
FOB-ish they were. There were two brothers. One was a senior and one was
a junior, so the junior one was the same age as me. And I remember
walking by the counseling office and being grabbed by my counselor
saying, "You have to get to know this person, and help this person out,
because--." And he pulled me into the counseling office where the two
boys were sitting, said, "Oh, you know, since you're Korean you've got
to show them around," and all that. But the thing is, you know,
especially since I moved to the mainland, I really didn't speak
Korean.
00:29:40
Cline:
Yes, I was wondering.
00:29:41
Chung Ryu:
You know, my dad taught us to try to focus on speaking English, and not
speak Korean. In fact, at home when we first got to Guam, we had a rule
of speaking English at all times, unless you absolutely had to speak
Korean. So I had quickly forgotten Korean, and I would speak Korean to
my parents, but you know, when you stop speaking Korean really, or stop
learning Korean when you're about nine, almost ten, that's where your
knowledge kind of stops, so all you're doing is maintaining, because I'm
not going to Korean classes or reading Korean books. I'm maintaining
what I'd known when I was like nine, ten, and so it was very childlike
phrases. So it was enough for me to communicate with my parents, with
whom I spoke half English most of the time. So I wasn't going to speak
Korean to another Korean kid, especially somebody who was like sixteen
or seventeen, and I didn't want to be identified as Korean, because I
spent two, three years trying to fit in there, you know. So I avoided
them. When I'd see them coming down the hall, I turned around and went
the other way. And it wasn't until like I was almost graduating that I
actually decided it's kind of foolish for me to be like that, you
know.
00:31:02
Chung Ryu:
So people that I would be interested in are people who were non-Korean,
non-Asian. There were a few Asians by the time I was a junior or senior,
but I wasn't interested, and they weren't interested in me probably, and
I did have a boyfriend who didn't even go to my school, that I met at a
club.
00:31:30
Cline:
Really.
00:31:30
Chung Ryu:
My best friend, Donna Norman, and I used to love to dance. I still like
dancing. So, you know, that's the Saturday Night Fever time, right?
00:31:40
Cline:
Yes, so you're in the disco period.
00:31:42
Chung Ryu:
Yes, the disco period, and in Walnut Creek near my house there was a club
where if you're seventeen you can go in to dance. You just can't order
any alcoholic drinks, because I think you had to get stamped if you're
under twenty-one. But especially girls could go in if they're seventeen,
and we would go there to dance, and I did meet someone a year or two
older than me who didn't go to my school, and I took him to my senior
ball. That's around the time that--I think right after that my dad came
back from Kuwait. And so I was kind of free. My mom, you know, she was
not a person who restricted us a lot, so--and I didn't have to tell her
everything either. And I drove by that time, so I went to senior ball
with him and all that. Then I remember my dad seeing the picture from
senior ball after he came, and he said I couldn't go out with him
anymore.
00:32:44
Cline:
Wow.
00:32:46
Chung Ryu:
Well, because part of--it's not just because he wasn't Korean, because he
was Caucasian--he was Irish, actually--but because he graduated from
high school, but he wasn't going to college. He had no plans to go to
college. I think his father was a truck driver. Their parents were
divorced, and he actually also--this is really personal, but he actually
had a deformity in his right hand. He was--I don't know how that
happened, but he didn't have all the fingers. It was kind of like his
hand was not a stump, but it was kind of like that. Only that hand;
nothing else was wrong with him. And I'm kind of a sucker for--I guess
I'm a very--I try--I have a lot of empathy, sympathy for people, and I
think for me that wasn't important. You know, it was more about
personality and all that, so that didn't really bother me. But for some
reason the senior ball, the way we stood, it was that hand that came out
to the front that showed in the picture. I don't know, we should have
stood the other way. But so that was another reason. And my dad, we had
a family meeting, we all had to assemble, and he said, "You know, I
didn't come to the United States so my kids will go out and date, and
marry somebody who's not going to be educated, who's like disabled and
all that, and we're going to move back to Korea if this goes on,"
basically telling me I'd better break up or we're all moving back to
Korea. So he was kind of extreme like that, you know. I'm not sure if he
really meant it, but--so I had to break up with him.
00:34:38
Chung Ryu:
But by that time I think I was either almost graduated, yes, and I was
going to start Berkeley, so it took me a few months to break it up. And
then by that time I had started Berkeley, and I started--for some reason
I went to the Korean Students Association meeting and met some people,
and decided that maybe Koreans weren't too bad, and started going to the
dances and doing other social things, and then I realized, you know, my
boyfriend wasn't going to fit in. It wasn't because he was Caucasian,
because actually all of his friends were Chinese. He grew up in Oakland,
and all of his friends were Chinese-American, so he actually liked
hanging out with Asian-Americans. But I kind of felt like our future
wasn't in the same place, and we didn't have a lot in common. So in the
end it wasn't really because my dad said I couldn't go with him. I
decided on my own that it wasn't going to work out.
00:35:52
Cline:
Speaking of Chinese-Americans, I was going to ask you if you ever got
into the city, into San Francisco, where you would have seen a lot more
Asian faces. Did you ever go into the city when you were in--?
00:36:03
Chung Ryu:
I did, but I didn't--I don't think I ever went to Chinatown. Maybe, you
know, when people came over we would go touring, or I don't even know if
we ate in Chinatown. There weren't that many Chinese-Americans in my
high school. I remember a family moving in later on, who may be from the
city, but you know, Moraga is a really small town, and there were people
in Moraga who had never even gone out to the city, which is like thirty
miles away. So I remember thinking, god, this is, you know, it's a very
small-town feeling there. So I didn't really associate. The only time
that I really hung out with Chinese-Americans was when I was dating my
Irish boyfriend, because all of his friends were Chinese-American.
00:36:52
Cline:
Interesting.
00:36:53
Chung Ryu:
Yes. They were actually--not that I ever got influenced by them, but you
know, they went to Oakland High [School], they graduated from Oakland
High, so I saw some things that, you know, like fights. Not that I
visited the school, but I remember one of his friends had a house. He
lived in a house across the street from the high school, and you know,
one of those days when you're in college, and sometimes you don't have
class till like ten, or you've got like a two-, three-hour break in
between, I remember hanging out with them and seeing a fight on campus
across the street, from across the street, and I was thinking, there's
violence on that campus. I had never seen people physically fight before
in my whole life. So I remember, that's another reason I was thinking,
you know, he and his friends are doing things that are very different
from what I would want to do. They're all nice people, but I realized,
you know, it wasn't fun enough. The fun wasn't the only thing I wanted
in life. I didn't want to be in that kind of scene.
00:38:03
Chung Ryu:
So, you know, my exposure to Chinese-Americans were they were nice
people, but you know, they grew up in a different area, different
atmosphere type of thing, at least the people that I was exposed to.
Later on I met Chinese-Americans at Berkeley, you know, who were from
the city, who went to that high school where all the smart people go to
in the city. Oh, my gosh, one of my best friends is from there.
00:38:34
Cline:
It's Powell or Lowell [High School].
00:38:36
Chung Ryu:
Lowell High, Lowell High I believe. Those are the kids that come to
Berkeley, yes. I think they have to get tested or something to go to the
high school. So I met a lot of Chinese-Americans from there when I was
at Berkeley, yes, so that's probably when I actually got to know more
Chinese-Americans, from college.
00:38:56
Cline:
What about church activity, was there any of that going on yet?
00:39:02
Chung Ryu:
No, not in high school. After my parents were both here, and then right
before I started college we actually moved from Moraga to Walnut Creek,
near the San Ramon side, more I guess east. They kind of got to know
some people, and they started going to this Korean American Baptist
Church, so once in a while I would go with them. But I was working
through college. The summer before college I started working in the
supermarket. I got a job with my best friend, because her dad worked at
Fry's Food Stores, which is like a small chain up in Northern
California, and I started as a bagger, and then I got promoted to a
checker, and I did bookkeeping for a little bit when I was going through
college. So I was working all through college, so I probably didn't have
a lot of free time, and I probably worked on Sundays. So I used to go to
church with them once in a while. But it was amazing to me that my dad
would actually go to church.
00:40:09
Chung Ryu:
My mom liked church, I think, much more. She still is very--now she's a
very devoted Christian, and goes to church all the time. But I think she
liked church because she could sing in the choir. My mom was a voice
major--
00:40:23
Cline:
Oh, right, you mentioned that.
00:40:23
Chung Ryu:
--and, you know, she had to stop college because she got married and had
me and my brothers. But she was finally able to sing all the time, or
often, so I think she really enjoyed going to church, and the social
aspect of it.
00:40:40
Cline:
I was going to ask if you had any jobs in high school, but you didn't
start working until you were in college then?
00:40:46
Chung Ryu:
Right, because I don't think my dad would have let us work, because it
would have been a bad reflection on him--
00:40:52
Cline:
I see.
00:40:54
Chung Ryu:
--as an Asian father, to have their kids go out. That would mean that he
couldn't provide, right? And I had to actualy almost beg him to let me
work. I was the first child in my family to work, you know, for pay,
outside. And I remember my dad, you know, was reluctant. Then later on
he said, "Okay, you can work there," because he knew where I was going
to work, and he knew I got the job through my best friend and her dad,
whom my parents knew. He said, "Well, as long as you're not serving
food," meaning waitressing, you know, "it's okay." And I remember
thinking like, what's wrong with that? But I guess in Asian culture, you
know, only the low-class people serve food. When you serve food to
others, it's kind of like you're putting yourself at a lower level.
That's what I suspect. So he thought that it would not be good that I
would be working as a waitress. But since I'm bagging groceries, I could
do that. [laughs]
00:41:56
Cline:
Wow. So how did you like Berkeley, and academically, how did things take
shape for you there?
00:42:02
Chung Ryu:
I loved Berkeley. You know, I always loved school, as you could probably
tell now. And I was undeclared, so I really didn't know what I wanted to
do. I just knew that I was going to become a professional, so I knew I
was going to go to graduate school. But you know, I had to basically do
everything myself. My parents--because I was a typical child of an
immigrant family. They're working, you know, and trying to support the
family, and they really didn't go to school here, so they had no idea
how to navigate the water. They couldn't give me any advice on
registration or anything. So I basically had to do everything while I
was working. I was looking forward to kind of starting fresh, too,
because you know, high school I went there and I had to start over. I
could never become like part of the popular in-crowd. And I thought,
well, in college you start fresh, not that my goal was to become
popular, but I kind of wanted to fit in, and I thought, well, Berkeley
would be a good place, a new place to start.
00:43:20
Chung Ryu:
That's why I think one of the reasons I tried the Korean Students
Association people, and I actually have a lot of friends still from
those days, and rediscover--I tell people I rediscovered my Korean
identity, at least pride in it, at Berkeley. I started to speak Korean
again. After like a whole year of not speaking Korean to anybody, I got
the courage to speak Korean with my friends, so I grew up. I became, I
think, an adult at Berkeley, through the classes I took there, teachers
that I had, experiences that I had. It was a really time of awakening
for me.
00:44:13
Cline:
How did you decide that you were going to go into the realm of law? What
happened?
00:44:19
Chung Ryu:
It was by accident. My dad again was trying to help me decide what I
should do, so we went through the whole thing about becoming a doctor,
and then I said, "You know, I don't really like science that much." And
then he said, "You know, being a doctor is really hard, especially for a
woman. It's hard work. You have to be on call, you see a lot of blood,
you know, you can't really have a family life and all that. You have to
work a lot of hours." I think he's talking about like residency program,
and, of course, I had no idea what those were, because I really didn't
know. So he went through all these analyses on his own, and would just
kind of tell me what he thought. And then he said, "Okay, so let's
forget that."
00:45:04
Chung Ryu:
And then after a while he said, "What about being a journalist, like
Barbara Walters?" You know, that's when she was becoming really famous.
He said, "That would be really great." He said, "You can talk, you can
speak really well, and, you know, it would be great to have a Korean
woman be in front of the camera." And I was thinking, well, I don't
really like being in front of the camera. And I thought, gee, how do you
become a journalist like that, you know? So I kind of thought that might
be interesting, but I wasn't sure.
00:45:34
Chung Ryu:
But I decided to go into law because I took this class. It was an evening
class called Asian Americans and the Law, and it was taught by Asian
American attorneys from this nonprofit organization, like a Legal Aid
type of place in Oakland and San Francisco. They just taught that class
in the evenings. The reason I took that class was because I took some
Asian American Studies course just for fun, and I realized there was a
lot of stuff that went on in history in the United States that I had no
idea, you know, like discrimination. I always thought, you know, you
hear about discrimination against African Americans, and maybe a little
bit about Latinos or Mexican Americans, but you don't really learn about
it, maybe just a little mention of the internment of the Japanese. But
who knows what that really means, because they don't spend a lot of
time, at least not then, about it in your history class.
00:46:31
Cline:
That's for sure.
00:46:31
Chung Ryu:
So I took an Asian American Studies course, and it was actually taught by
Professor Elaine Kim at Berkeley, who teaches that class still at
Berkeley, and I realized, wow, I didn't know that, I mean, we had all
those railroad workers who were sent in to get blown up for us, you
know, and the railroads, too, and the Filipino workers, and how their
camps would get raided by these white, I guess KKK [Ku Klux Klan] then,
or you know, people who didn't like foreigners. And they weren't allowed
to own property, they couldn't get married, you know, all that kind of
stuff, you know, marry with a non-minority I guess, and there were
immigration restrictions. I really didn't know all that until I took
that class, so something stirred inside me and I said, well, those are
fundamentally unfair, and this country is supposed to be all about
equality and fairness, so how could that be? And you know, how have we
changed, and what can we do to make more changes kind of thing.
00:47:37
Chung Ryu:
So I think the social awareness came about, and so that's how I became
interested in that class, Asian Americans and the Law. So I thought, I'm
going to take that class and find out what it's about. Well, I loved
that class. I loved the teachers, the attorneys who taught that class. I
decided to intern at the Asian Law Caucus, which is their organization,
I think between my junior and senior year at Berkeley, and that's when I
decided to go into law.
00:48:12
Cline:
Wow, interesting.
00:48:13
Chung Ryu:
The attorneys there, though not the ones I was working under, were
working on this case called Kormatsu v. United States, and it's a coram
nobis, which I recently learned exactly what it meant through my son,
who was taking an A.P. U.S. history class. They were trying to set--he
got convicted for failing to follow the exclusionary order during World
War II, ordering basically the Japanese to report to interment camps. He
refused, because he had an Italian girlfriend, and he didn't want to get
separated, so he even went through some plastic surgery I heard. I don't
think that made any difference, because he still looked so Japanese. So
he basically got arrested, charged with a crime, so he had a criminal
record his whole life. So he basically then filed a lawsuit to get his
criminal record--he reopened his case, and based upon some new evidence,
which later on found that there was no evidence actually against the
Japanese Americans, and the government actually misrepresented a lot of
things to the court.
00:49:29
Chung Ryu:
So to get his case reopened and then the charges dismissed, and it was a
big deal, because that also started the redress and reparation movement.
So the attorneys that I worked for were interviewed by 20/20, and I
think the anchor person, was it Tom Bradley, the African American
gentleman who was in 20/20, one of the anchors?
00:49:57
Cline:
Oh, you're thinking of Ed Bradley, but he was on 60 Minutes.
00:50:00
Chung Ryu:
Oh, maybe it was 60 Minutes then. Okay, Tom Bradley was the L.A. mayor,
yes. Because he came out to the office and interviewed a couple of the
attorneys who were working on it, and it was such a big deal. I met Mr.
Koramatsu when he came through, and there were a couple of other
gentlemen who also filed similar lawsuits, and they were there, and it
was a really exciting time for me to be involved. I think all I did was
input information into the computer. But I remember thinking, wow, it's
just incredible that you could file a lawsuit to basically have the
United States government admit that they were wrong, and apologize, you
know. And I thought, only in the United States could that happen really,
that we would have laws in place that would allow that to happen, and
the courts would actually be so independent from the government that
they would actually make findings that government made a mistake, or
misrepresented things to the court. So I thought, it's great what these
lawyers are doing, and I want to be a lawyer, so you know, I could fix
things that have gone wrong, too. And with the encouragement of one of
the attorneys that I took the class from, I decided to apply to law
school.
00:51:19
Cline:
So you're learning a lot more about U.S. history and all things American.
Were you following current events in politics at all at that time? How
were you plugging into what was going on back then, because we're into
the eighties now, the early eighties.
00:51:35
Chung Ryu:
We're into the eighties, and I wasn't politically awakened yet, I think.
But I do remember becoming much more aware of things that were going on,
and I actually remember participating in this rally in Sproul Hall at
Berkeley, you know, where everybody demonstrates.
00:51:55
Cline:
Yes. It's a tradition.
00:51:57
Chung Ryu:
Because I remember the Korean Airline [plane] went down flying over
Alaska, because that airline allegedly went over Russian air space, and
I remember, because I was part of the Korean American Students
Association then, and I remember speaking in front of all these people
at Sproul Hall, you know, saying the United States government should do
something, I guess. I don't know why we would be--but since we're
friends with South Korea, you know, we should be helping out. And I
remember this one guy yelling from the audience something about how the
South Korean government--we shouldn't think about helping South Korea
until the South Korean government improves itself, because I think that
was right after where South Korean--we had a series of "democratic"
presidents who were actually acting like dictators, right?
00:52:52
Cline:
Yes, you're right. Absolutely.
00:52:52
Chung Ryu:
And so they would suppress any uprisings or complaints, and I think there
was like one town outside of Seoul where they actually quelled, I guess,
unrest. They actually, I think, ran over people with tanks and stuff,
kind of like, not as big as Tiannenmen Square, but it was something
similar. Of course, you know, they suppressed all the news. Only a
little bit I think got leaked out. But I remember this guy yelling out
to us, going, "What about the South Korean government? Look at all the
bad things they're doing there," you know. I think that was my first,
like, educational experience in public speaking, how you had to be ready
to respond to legitimate issues, questions. So I think that was kind of
like the beginning of my public speaking type of thing, and where I got
more involved. I got more involved with stuff after I started law
school, you know, politically as well as socially, but that was kind of
the beginning of it, which is kind of surprising because, you know, I
was always focused on school, and I didn't grow up--you know, on Guam
there's really no controversy or issues really going on, you know, and I
led kind of a sheltered life in Moraga. Nothing was going on in Moraga.
It's such a boring town. And my parents didn't really talk about
politics or anything like that, so I really didn't grow up being aware
of things. So I really am very thankful for the education and the
exposure I got by going to Berkeley, and the people I met there, because
I would probably be very different if I hadn't gone there.
00:54:43
Cline:
Well, it's famous for that.
00:54:45
Chung Ryu:
They did their job on me.
00:54:48
Cline:
Our time is up. I wanted to ask you one more question.
00:54:51
Chung Ryu:
Okay.
00:54:53
Cline:
Did you ever get to Disneyland?
00:54:55
Chung Ryu:
Yes, I did. Yes, we did, after--I think, yes, we did come to Disneyland
two or three years after we moved to Guam. My dad brought us to
California, and we toured San Francisco and L.A. area, and I just
remember it being really hot and dry in L.A. You know, coming from Guam
it was just really hot and dry. And then San Francisco was really
cold.
00:55:22
Cline:
Right. Must have been summer.
00:55:23
Chung Ryu:
It was. Yes, August probably.
00:55:28
Cline:
Okay. I think that's it for today then, and we'll continue from on with
more of your Berkeley experience when we get together again next
week.
00:55:37
Chung Ryu:
All right.
00:55:39
Cline:
Thank you.
00:55:39
Chung Ryu:
Thank you.
[End of interview]
00:00:00
Cline:
This is Alex Cline interviewing Judge Tammy Chung Ryu once again, in her
chambers at the Compton County Courthouse. Today is September third,
2008. This is our fourth session. Good afternoon again.
00:00:26
Chung Ryu:
Good afternoon.
00:00:29
Cline:
Thank you for allowing for this to happen, because I know you're
incredibly busy. We left off last time talking about how you decided to
pursue law, something that you decided while you were an undeclared
student at UC Berkeley, the only college that you applied to, and we
wanted to continue from that point and move it forward to see how far we
get. So my first question to you is, once you decided that you wanted to
pursue law, which was somehow connected with this class that you took,
this particular class in something that seemed to stimulate in you a
feeling for justice as it is possible in this country, and perhaps in a
unique way in this country--you mentioned, for example, the possibility
of getting the government to apologize for something it may have done in
the past as being pretty novel, and I wanted to ask, once you decided to
pursue this direction, what was your next course of action, and what
were your feelings about the study of law? Since you hadn't thought
about it before, I was curious to know--it's a very high-density,
demanding subject--I wondered what you thought of it once you finally
really got into it, after deciding to go in that direction.
00:02:08
Chung Ryu:
You mean actually when I started law school?
00:02:10
Cline:
Yes.
00:02:10
Chung Ryu:
Okay. Well, I ended up at UCLA Law School, so that's how I came to Los
Angeles to actually stay.
00:02:20
Cline:
How did that decision happen? Did you apply to different law schools?
00:02:23
Chung Ryu:
I did. I did apply to more than one. I applied to a few. I remember I
wanted to, for law school, to move away from the family. You know, I
stayed at home. I commuted to college and that was fine. I was working
during that time, and working for my family--my parents had bought a
supermarket. I think it was my sophomore or junior year in college, so I
had to help run it, and so I really wanted to move away, because I knew
that if I lived and home and went to law school, I would still need to
work, and I knew that I had to focus on studies.
00:03:12
Cline:
Where was the supermarket?
00:03:15
Chung Ryu:
It was in West Oakland, which is kind of like South Central L.A. of
Oakland, you know, in terms of crime rate and poverty and so forth. And
my parents, because I had worked in a supermarket, you know, started as
a bagger, checker, did a little bit of bookkeeping, they thought that
maybe they could draw upon my expertise.
00:03:36
Cline:
This was at Fry's Foods as I recall?
00:03:38
Chung Ryu:
Yes, it was Fry's. So my parents actually decided to buy a supermarket
that had been closed. It used to be like a Safeway or something, some
major chain, but you know, being in that kind of neighborhood I think
they had moved out, and so it was like an abandoned supermarket
location, a lot of drug sales, stuff like that going on in the parking
lot. It was attached to a couple of small businesses, like a fast-food
hamburger place, family-owned type, and a laundromat or something like
that. So my dad, being the entreprenuer who did not like to work for
others, decided that he can do that. So he cleaned it up, you know,
chased out the rats from the freezer, the refrigerator that had not been
working for a long time, asked the police department to patrol the area
often, to get rid of people who are basically doing business in the
parking lot, or doing other stuff, and we opened it. And I helped run
it. I worked about twenty to thirty hours a week.
00:04:48
Chung Ryu:
You know, I was on my way back from Berkeley to home, and everybody
worked, my sister, my brothers, my mom. We hired people from the
community, you know, and it was a pretty big supermarket, because I know
we had at least four check stands, and we had a liquor department,
produce department, meat department, so it was a full supermarket.
Anyway, so I decided that I'm going to apply and go away. So even though
I applied to Hastings [College] and I got in, I decided not to go,
because even though my parents said, "You could live in the dorms," and
all that, I knew that they would call me if there was an emergency, and
I would feel like I would have to run over there and help.
00:05:35
Chung Ryu:
So I applied--I got waitlisted at Georgetown [University]. I got into NYU
[New York University], and was very excited for a while, and then got
scared about going to New York, because I had never been to the East
Coast before in my whole life, didn't have any family or friends, which
was kind of exciting in one way, and then I later realized that might be
a little scary. So even though I had indicated to NYU I was going to go
there, when I heard from UCLA, which was the last school, and found out
I was accepted, I decided to go to UCLA, because in a way it was
perfect. I would be away from home, too far to run home to help out, but
I wouldn't be too far away and, you know, be really far from my family,
so that's how I ended up in L.A. Also, it's a public school. It was much
cheaper than NYU.
00:06:27
Cline:
Yes, cheaper, right.
00:06:29
Chung Ryu:
And I enjoyed law school, not just because I liked school generally,
because it was the most challenging time in terms of education for me,
even more challenging than when I first came to the United States,
because law school is just different, you know. I mean, you're reading
books that are in English, but it's actually like a foreign language,
you know, where how you read things, what you get out of it, how you
analyze it is all different. You know, you have to learn like a new
skill, new way of looking at things and analyzing, and it was really
challenging for me. I lived in a student-housing apartment for grad
students in Westwood, thought it was going to be a piece of cake,
because all I had to do was go to school, I didn't have to work. You
know, I had worked the past five years going to school, four and a half
years, so I thought it would be really easy for me.
00:07:34
Chung Ryu:
But it turned out not to be so easy, because law school was very
challenging, but I loved what I learned. I learned that there were also
lots of different people that came to law school, and some people knew
they were going to be lawyers or maybe even judges for years and years,
since they were little. You know, a lot of them came from families where
there were a lot of lawyers, and maybe even judges, so that was
different for me. But the discussions that we had in class, different
perspectives, were really challenging for me. There were times when l
got really upset or, not depressed, but kind of, you know, disillusioned
with some of my colleagues, my peers at law school, because I thought
their thinking was very narrow, or too materialistic or financially
motivated. But you know, overall I learned a lot, and UCLA prepared me
well.
00:08:41
Cline:
What year did you start?
00:08:44
Chung Ryu:
I started in '84. Yes, so I graduated from Berkeley--actually, I finished
my studies after four and a half years. I think being undeclared the
first couple of years, and then working, I think I probably didn't have
enough necessary classes or whatever, so I actually finished the winter
of '83. We were on semester system at Berkeley. But I graduated, went
through the ceremony in '84, I believe. Yes. So I worked for the spring
of '84. I just worked, I didn't go to school. I did work on a case as an
investigator's helper during that time, to kind of help me get my feet
into the, I guess, legal thinking. So I was working for an attorney, an
investigator for an attorney who was defending a Korean man on a murder,
special murder circumstances case, so that was really fun. Then I
started law school August of '84, and I graduated in '87.
00:10:01
Cline:
During the time you were at UCLA Law School, was there a particular type
of law that attracted you or interested you that you pursued?
00:10:13
Chung Ryu:
No, not really. I knew what I didn't like. I knew I wouldn't like tax law
or corporate law. I knew that I wanted to be in a courtroom, but I did
not want to do criminal law, which means I had to do civil litigation
type of thing, and because that's the kind of lawyers that I knew. You
know, the Asian Law Caucus attorneys were all attorneys who went to
court, so that's the kind of attorney I wanted to be. And after my first
year, I went back home to Northern California, and I basically interned
at Asian Law Caucus as a law student. So I did that that summer, but
then at the end of the summer they told all of us interns that the
public-interest sector really may not be something we want to go into,
especially if you had a lot of student loans, which I knew I was going
to have at the end of my law school, because they were paying very
little, and there really wasn't an opening in Asian Law Caucus anytime
soon, so that we should actually look for other places in terms of
employment after law school. So that's when I started looking at maybe a
government office, where I didn't have to do criminal law, or maybe
small law firm types. But I wanted to work in the public sector, so to
speak, deal with public law, where we're dealing with losses that
impacted people, as opposed to just individual, you know, one person
suing another type of thing. So that's how I ended up in the [California
State] Attorney General's Office.
00:12:04
Cline:
Okay. Before we get there let me ask you, what did you think of L.A. once
you moved here?
00:12:10
Chung Ryu:
I had been to L.A. before once or twice, like during college, because I
actually had a Korean boyfriend who was from L.A. So I remember coming
to visit, but you know, L.A. is so different. You come here and there's
Koreatown, and there are signs in Korean, and it's not just a matter of
finding a Korean restaurant, it's deciding which one you want to go to
eat at, you know, depending on what you felt like at the moment, because
you have all kinds of Korean food here in L.A. So, you know, that was
kind of a minor cultural shock for me, being from the Bay Area, and
then, you know, just people being so much more Korean here in L.A. You
know, there's a lot of recent immigrants, people who really don't speak
English, or they don't need to speak English, in fact, you know, that
type of thing. All these Korean churches everywhere, so that was really
different. But I adjusted really fast. I mean, you know, it's easy to
adjust to stuff like that, and enjoying it when you're Korean, Korean
American, you know, having tons of places you can go to eat at.
00:13:29
Chung Ryu:
I actually wanted to make friends who were Korean, and I wanted to go to
a Korean church, to find a church when I came down here, so I was much
more open to that than when I had started as a college student.
00:13:49
Cline:
Did you spend a lot of time in Koreatown, and if so, other than for
perhaps food, what would draw you to Koreatown, and what did you think
of it?
00:13:58
Chung Ryu:
I came to Koreatown for a lot of the meetings, because I joined two
organizations, Korean American Coalition, KAC, and I was a law student
member of Korean American Bar Association, or KABA, which is the
lawyers' group. So I think there were a couple of friends, classmates
from law school who were also interested, because I remember I didn't
have a car, so I must have hitched a ride from somebody.
00:14:31
Cline:
Yes. Boy, you can't survive here without a car.
00:14:34
Chung Ryu:
Right. So I did that, and so I went to a lot of meetings. I got to know
L.A. that way, too, you know, from community organization perspective,
because I wanted to be more involved in the community. So I did
volunteer work for KAC, and for KABA I think it was mostly, you know,
trying to get law students to join, become more aware. We had pro bono
law days and all that. It was a very small organization back then, but I
quickly got to know a lot of the people who were involved in community
organizing and activities in L.A.
00:15:26
Cline:
Right. And this is before the sort of big, you could call it a leadership
shift after the '92 riots.
00:15:35
Chung Ryu:
Right.
00:15:35
Cline:
Who were some of the people you remember who were kind of community
leaders at that time, or figures that you dealt with?
00:15:45
Chung Ryu:
Well, when I was at KAC, Charles Kim was--I think he might have been
president. I don't think they had an executive director immediately, you
know, because they were growing, and I don't think they had the funding
to have the fulltime executive director. But Charles Kim was our leader,
so he may have become like president and then executive director, so he
was a player. There were attorneys that were a little bit older, and
there was John [S.C.] Lim, who was the founding partner of Lim, Ruger,
& Kim, whose father [Dong Sun Lim] was a big minister in Koreatown
area, and there's Angela Oh. Those two I know very well, because John
was the president of KABA when the riots happened, and Angela was
president elect, and who went on TV and spoke on behalf of the
community, and I became president right after her, in 1994. And because
I knew John and Angela well, and I was very active in the organization,
you know, I worked with them a lot during the riots and post-riot
activities that we were involved in.
00:17:01
Cline:
Right. We'll get to that. What about, was T.S. [Tong Soo] Chung at KAC
when you were there?
00:17:07
Chung Ryu:
Yes, he was. I think he was one of the founding members, and he was also
a UCLA Law School grad. I think he had just graduated when I entered,
because I think he's an '84 graduate. So I missed him, but I knew him
from the community. I also knew Duncan David Lee, who was also one of
the founding members of KAC, who's an attorney. He was a third year when
I was a first year at law school, and he had grown up in L.A., and I
ended up going to his church. So we worked a lot on things together, so
there were a lot of KAC people. I think John probably was involved, John
Lim, too, in KAC, because he was very close to T.S., who was also one of
the founding partners of the law firm, which is now Lim, Ruger, &
Kim. So yes, I've known T.S. for a while now, you know, through his
evolution, being a lawyer, community activist, and then I don't think
he's a politician really, but being involved in politics.
00:18:17
Cline:
So you almost walked into answering my next question, which is, what
church did you go to?
00:18:22
Chung Ryu:
Well, I met my husband [James Ryu] through some people, and he invited me
to go to his church. At that time, in 1984, it was called the Robertson
[Korean United Methodist] Church. It's one of the oldest Korean churches
in the country, because they celebrated their hundredth anniversary a
few years ago, and a lot of people in the Korean American community in
L.A. have ties to that church. So my husband played piano for the
English service, which was a small, like a thirty-person young-people
congregation, so I started going to that church through him, and we
continued going to that church until last year, because the English
ministry then broke off and joined a church in West L.A., predominantly
a Caucasian church that was pretty much dying out. So we joined them,
and so we are now part of that church, and no longer part of the Korean
American church.
00:19:35
Cline:
And which church is that, just for the record?
00:19:37
Chung Ryu:
It's called Los Angeles Korean United Methodist Church, which used to be
called Robertson, but we moved from Robertson Boulevard in L.A. near
Beverly Hills, and we joined in '89 La Tijera United Methodist Church,
which is off of La Tijera and the 405 Freeway.
00:20:00
Cline:
Right, right, in Westchester.
00:20:02
Chung Ryu:
In Westchester, right. It's actually--the address may not be, but it is
Westchester area. And then when they moved there, Robertson church no
longer really made sense, so they, I think, went back to their original
name, which was L.A.K.U.M.C., United Methodist Church. So we've been
there since '89, that campus. The Korean-speaking congregation is still
there.
00:20:28
Chung Ryu:
But I also got to know a lot of other Asian American community leaders
when I was going to law school, through the Asian Pacific American Legal
Center, and you know, all the different Asian bar associations, the
lawyers' groups, just through the friends that I met in law school,
going to meetings with them, and you know, right--have you heard of the
Soon Ja Doo case?
00:21:00
Cline:
Yes.
00:21:01
Chung Ryu:
It actually arose out of Compton with this courthouse, which I did not
realize, because I think I was a very young lawyer then when it
happened. It happened right before the riots. Yes, must have been. And
because of that there was a lot of disunity, I guess, even among the
minority bar association. It actually kind of caused a friction between
the African American Bar Association and some of the Korean American
lawyers, and other minority lawyers who, you know, thought the lenient
sentence that Miss Doo received was okay, and then there were people in
the African American community who felt that that was just
ridiculous--
00:22:05
Cline:
Yes, they were outraged.
00:22:05
Chung Ryu:
--and so we had a lot of community discussions about that, and a lot of
heated arguments at those meetings. But through all those activities I
also have gotten to know a lot of other Asian American attorneys. But I
should also tell you, I was arrested in law school for civil
disobedience, and that's one of the reasons why I got to know a lot of
the attorneys in the community.
00:22:31
Cline:
Oh, wow.
00:22:31
Chung Ryu:
That's something I should probably be frank about and discuss in this
interview, because I don't know if it would come up through other
sources, because it's something that once in a while I have to talk
about.
00:22:49
Cline:
Yes. That means you have a criminal record.
00:22:51
Chung Ryu:
It was expunged--
00:22:52
Cline:
Oh, that's nice.
00:22:52
Chung Ryu:
--so I really don't, but I have had since then had to divulge that, too,
because when I applied to A.G.'s [Attorney General's] Office, it's a
government office, and you do have to be honest in your employment
application. So I had to say I was arrested, and when I applied to
become a judge I also had to talk about that, and I was grilled about
that by the appointments secretary during my interview for the
judge.
00:23:20
Cline:
Well, what happened? What did you do?
00:23:22
Chung Ryu:
What did I do?
00:23:23
Cline:
Yes.
00:23:23
Chung Ryu:
I was among a few students who decided to take over the Records Office at
law school in an act of civil disobedience, so basically trespassing, I
guess. You know, you take over and refuse to leave when they come and
tell you, so that you can get arrested, and I wanted to get arrested,
because that's how you bring attention to your issue, which was that the
law school administration decided to get rid of
minority-student-organization input in their admissions process, which
we had been able to do for many, many years, and I was very involved in
that through my activities in the law school, with the Asian Law
Students Association. You know, we spent hundreds of hours even as law
students, you know, interviewing applicants to law school, to see if
their admission would add diversity and enhance education at the school.
And right when I came back to school after summer of second year and
starting my third year, we found out that UCLA Law School decided that
minority students may be bringing down the bar passage rate, which is
one of the ways that a law school can be ranked, and so they thought
that perhaps they just needed just a dean of admissions with faculty
input in deciding who gets admitted to law school, that law-student
groups' input was no longer really, you know, necessary or beneficial to
the law school.
00:25:24
Chung Ryu:
And we thought that there was not enough notice, there was no real study
that was done to warrant that, and we wanted them to postpone their
decision making until they did some studies. We also felt that perhaps
they were focusing on the wrong thing. We thought that maybe what they
could do is help students while they're in law school, so that they can
improve in their bar-passage rate, as opposed to cutting the admissions,
you know. It's the retention and education which is a responsibility of
the school, especially UCLA Law School being a public school, you know,
and had to be accountable to the community. We felt that they were
actually focusing on the wrong end of it.
00:26:13
Chung Ryu:
So we staged demonstrations, we had rallies, we had the undergraduate
students involved. We did a sit-out where we refused to go to class one
morning, and you know, made big noises at the law school so other kids
couldn't study. We participated. I mean, there were a lot of things that
we did. We tried to disrupt the faculty meetings that they were holding,
so they couldn't take a vote on it, you know. We had a lot of faculty,
actually professors, who were supportive of us, and spoke at our rallies
and all that. But in the end we decided that what we really needed to do
was get the media to talk about this, you know, and have this really be
communicated to everybody.
00:27:00
Chung Ryu:
So some of us decided that we were going to get arrested to make that
statement, and it was very interesting. I learned a lot through that
experience, because we actually had to be prepared. You know, we learned
in law school you had to be prepared, and we had to consult with
attorneys to talk about how this may impact our future. And attorneys
actually told us not to do it, because they said, "Well, if you get
arrested you could have a criminal record, and it could affect your
acceptance to the bar. They may decide that you're not appropriate to be
an attorney, so you're basically maybe throwing away your future." So
that was one thing. The other thing is, we had to get arrested without
violence, you know. So we actually had a Catholic worker who was a,
quote, unquote, "expert" or professional civil-disobedience person, you
know, who'd been arrested different times for acts of civil
disobedience, to talk about--to prepare us, like what we can wear, what
we can take with us, what we were not going to be allowed to do, all
that, so we all knew what we were going to get into, and what to expect
in the jails, and you know, the searching and all that kind of stuff,
getting yourself bailed out and all that, so we all had to have our plan
for that.
00:28:22
Chung Ryu:
So, you know, after a lot of meetings and discussion and education, you
know, some of us decided we were going to do that. We started out taking
over the Records Office and inviting the staff to leave, and then we had
people outside in the hallway, and we were just you know, chanting and
demonstrating until UC[LA] Police came and told us to leave. And some
people left, because some people decided they were not going to get
arrested. They were going to participate up to that point.
00:28:55
Chung Ryu:
And one thing I learned was, even though the African American and
Hispanic, Latino law students' associations were involved, and, in fact,
they were going to probably get impacted the most in terms of
admissions, because Asian students, a lot of them were still going to
get in, but we wanted to basically add diversity. But they chose--no
African American law student wanted to participate in getting arrested,
and they shared in our meetings that, you know, they were already
suspect in a lot of cases. I mean, we had law-student classmates who
said, "I've been stopped because I fit the profile of somebody, you
know, even coming to law school. Being a person of my color, we're
already in contact with law enforcement, you know, often, or have, and
it has not always been a positive experience," that they did not want to
do that. And maybe for them the stakes were higher, I don't know.
00:30:09
Chung Ryu:
So we had no African American law student who chose to participate and
get arrested. I think we only had one or two Hispanic law students, and
the rest of us were Asian and Pacific Islanders. So I think there were
twelve of us who got arrested. But we never actually got further than
[UCLA] Campus Police station. I guess we all signed an OR [own
recognizance]. I didn't know what that was, but promised not to reoffend
while we were out being released, you know, released on our own
recognizance, I guess. Then we later had a hearing at the Santa Monica
City Attorney's Office. I think it was like a diversion program, that
there were willing to offer us, you know, so they wouldn't actually
charge us with a crime, and actually they didn't ask us to do any
community service or anything like that. We just had to promise that we
won't do it again. And since most of us were graduating in a couple of
months--and this happened right before finals, too, so you know, we
thought, well, we just wanted to make a statement, and the statement had
been made, and so we promised not to do it again, and they didn't file
any charges.
00:31:27
Chung Ryu:
And actually at the hearing the arresting officers--the person in charge
actually testified or gave a statement on our behalf to the city
attorney, and I remember being really surprised. But he thought that--he
said, first of all we were well behaved, and secondly, he said he had to
commend us for taking chances based upon what we believed, that we were
willing to, you know, risk things for ideals, and he thought that was
something that needed to be commended, because young people, you know,
we're young and we had ideals, and we were willing to sacrifice. So he
actually spoke on our behalf, and so as far as I know, we never got
charges filed against us, and our arrest records were expunged. So the
only time I have to disclose it is, you know, when I would apply for a
government job, or when I applied to become a judge, and so I did it in
those times and it didn't really hurt me.
00:32:38
Cline:
The question those of us who've had to show up for jury duty have to ask,
too. What did your parents think of all that?
00:32:51
Chung Ryu:
You know, I don't remember if I actually told them. I told my husband,
who was my boyfriend then. He was all ready to bail me out. I think I
told him that if I actually end up going to jail and staying in jail,
then he needed to call them and tell them. I didn't think my parents
would understand, but I wasn't afraid that they would go, "No, you can't
do it," and I would have to choose between, you know, my parents and
getting disowned, versus doing this thing that I really believed
strongly about. They probably would have trusted me enough to kind of do
what I thought was right. But I think I told them afterwards, yes.
00:33:39
Cline:
So how did you meet your husband?
00:33:45
Chung Ryu:
I met him through a friend of his, who I met at my first Korean party in
L.A. I went to a Korean party, I think it was October of '84. After
coming to L.A., some of my law school friends who were Korean said, "Oh,
there's a party," so I decided, well, that would be a good way to meet
Koreans in L.A. So I went there and I met a person named John Lee, who
was actually a kicker on the UCLA football team, pretty famous, except I
didn't know anything about him. But I met him at that party, and he
invited me to watch him play at the Rose Bowl against Arizona State
[University]. It wasn't a Rose Bowl game, but it was at the Rose Bowl,
and I did not have a ride. I did not have a car, so he sent his best
friend to basically pick me and my friend up, to take us to the game,
and that person was my husband, so it was his best friend. So that's how
I met my husband.
00:34:53
Chung Ryu:
I had never gone to a college football game before. I didn't go to one in
Berkeley, so I really didn't know. And in high school I went, but it was
just for fun. I didn't really watch the game, so I don't think anybody
ever really explained to me what football was, how the game was played.
But my husband was very patient, and explained everything to me, and I
thought, wow, he's a very patient, nice guy, had a nice voice, nice
demeanor. Then he invited me to go to his church, and I thought, well,
you know, he must be a good guy to go to church. And then I found out he
played piano for free, I mean, you know, volunteered. How many times do
you see a guy volunteering to play piano at a church, you know? So
that's how we started going out.
00:35:42
Cline:
What was your sense of how many other Korean students there were at UCLA
at the time? Did you have any sense of that?
00:35:52
Chung Ryu:
Oh yes, because numbers were a big deal to us, because there were so few.
My year, when I started as a first year we had twelve Korean American
first years, which was a record number, because the whole law school,
second and third year combined I think only had like five. It was the
biggest Asian American group of first years ever at UCLA. I think there
were about forty-five of us who started, kind of evenly distributed
Korean American, Chinese American, Japanese American, and then I think
the other ten or so were Vietnamese, Cambodian. There was one at least
from Guam, so he was a Pacific Islander. And since then I don't think
they've had that many. Yes, it's kind of like, and then look what
happened, look what we did before we left, right, created a big problem
for UCLA. But I think, you know, they really worked on increasing
diversity, and I think they just had so many of us accept, you know,
enroll after being accepted. So we had a huge class, and I think that's
one of the reasons we were so active at the law school. We had a big
number, so our Asian Law Students Association group was very strong. The
people who were in my year were actually coming from a lot of the
community-activity-oriented background, so we immediately joined
different organizations on campus and in the community, did volunteer
work in the community, so we were kind of a very active group in that
sense. But since then I've heard, you know--and we lost that fight about
the admissions thing, so I know that since then the class size has
shrunk in terms of Asian Americans.
00:37:57
Cline:
The whole admissions situation is very different now.
00:37:59
Chung Ryu:
It's changed. Yes, and then you had, what is that, Prop[osition] 209,
so.
00:38:06
Cline:
Yes. This was a conservative time politically as far as the country went.
How involved were you at this point politically, or interested were you
politically?
00:38:21
Chung Ryu:
I wasn't really politically involved until the riots happened in
1992.
00:38:33
Cline:
Can we wait on that?
00:38:34
Chung Ryu:
Yes.
00:38:34
Cline:
Okay. We'll get to that.
00:38:38
Chung Ryu:
Okay.
00:38:39
Cline:
If you had any, who were some memorable professors you had at UCLA School
of Law?
00:38:45
Chung Ryu:
Okay. One professor is Ken [Kenneth W.] Graham. I don't think he teaches
there anymore. He was my constitutional law professor my first year. He
was memorable because, first of all, he was one of the first professors
who came out to support us. I was in my third year, and he spoke at the
rally, and he spoke about how a long time ago Jews weren't allowed to go
to law school, you know, and they were viewed as people who were
bringing the bar passage rate down and all that. So he spoke out in
public on our behalf, you know. But I always knew I liked him even
before that, my first year, because I liked constitutional law. He was
from Yale [University], so he was what we call a Yalee, who taught more
in theoretical perspective, and I enjoyed the challenge of just thinking
a lot in his class. I also liked him because I got an A in the end,
because I really studied hard and aced the Yale essay question in the
end, but I think it's because I enjoyed his teaching style. He's one
person. There are other professors that I thought were good in the
subjects that they taught, but he's a professor that I learned more
from, just from his personal perspective and his teaching style.
00:40:18
Cline:
Okay. And going back to sort of your social life now, you already said
very different coming to L.A., a lot of Koreans. There's already the
impact of this first big wave of immigrants coming from Korea. Socially
speaking, what did you see in terms of any possible divisions
generationally or linguistically, or within the Korean community in L.A.
were there groups who would or would not associate with each other for
any reason? Was it pretty unified, or what was your sense of the
community when you came here?
00:41:04
Chung Ryu:
One issue that came up in the beginning was with whether the meetings
would be run in English or in Korean. That also came up I think when I
was in college. And then there's the issue of adding American to Korean,
you know. Like when I was in college it was KSA, Korean Students
Association. By the time I left, I think there was a big push to make it
Korean American Students Association, KASA, and I think that's what
they're called now throughout the country. You know, and then adding
Islander to Pacific. Asian Pacific American Law Students Association was
our name, and then later on we added Asian Pacific Islander. I wasn't
really involved in the first-generation type of Korean organizations
when I came here, because KSA was more one-point-five, second geneation,
and that's what they pride themselves in, because they wanted to be
involved in mainstream issues. So I didn't really know about some of the
frictions or separations in terms of organizations, what they did, until
later, until I became a lawyer and was more involved in leadership. Then
I encountered more of that.
00:42:24
Cline:
But, say, socially, for example, you mentioned when you were in high
school there were some Koreans that came that you said were very F.O.B.
[fresh off the boat]. Socially, just among people even of your own
generation, was there a difference between the more recent immigrants
and someone like you, who had been here longer and was fluent in
English, or economic differences? I mean, was there anything you noticed
or anything worth mentioning?
00:42:50
Chung Ryu:
Oh yes, but I'll have to go back to Berkeley days, when culturally
there's a big difference, especially for people who came when they're
young, versus like when they're in middle school or high school, you
know, teenagers, because they're already kind of--culturally they're
much more Korean than American, I think. I was criticized at Berkeley
one time by a friend of mine, a male friend from L.A., so he was
probably more Korean than I was, since I didn't grow up with a lot of
Korean people. He said that I was just too friendly, that as a female,
you know, I shouldn't be so friendly, meaning I shouldn't smile and say
hi to everybody I see, especially Korean guys, because they may take it
wrong, and I shouldn't always like have this direct eye contact. You
know, it's a big deal, and that has caused a lot of problems between
Korean store owners and their non-Korean customers. You know, it's a big
cultural thing, right, the lack of eye contact. It's a sign of
disrespect or all that. But a Korean it's kind of, you know, you don't
really do that. And for me, you know, I grew up basically American, and
we're supposed to be polite and friendly. You know, if you're not, then
that's bad. But in Korean culture it's actually opposite. So I remember
somebody making that comment, and I said, "What do you mean? It's
actually the opposite. You know, if I don't say hi to people when I see
them, or don't look at them when I'm talking to them, that's kind of
rude." But that was kind of the difference I saw.
00:44:37
Chung Ryu:
There were times later on when certain issues came up where you could
kind of tell there was a difference, you know. Like when Prop[osition]
187 came up, the anti-immigrant thing, and also there was some
propositions about funding, giving parents vouchers to send their kids
to private school. That was kind of an issue that came up, and we had
heated discussions about stuff like that. That's when I think there is
kind of more of a dichotomy, like a split. People who were more first
generation saw things a little bit different than people who actually
saw themselves more as second generation, because I think I see myself
relating more to like the second-generation thinking than the
first-generation thinking. So those things have come up along the way as
different issues, you know, pop up and we had to discuss them.
00:45:39
Cline:
But you didn't see--like if you were out at a party or something, and
some of the people were more recent immigrants--
00:45:46
Chung Ryu:
There were a lot more Korean people speaking in L.A., yes. I did go to
some Korean parties, I guess, and there were a lot more people speaking
Korean. Even young people my age were speaking Korean a lot more, yes,
which was very kind of different for me, and how they talk to each
other, you know, when they speak Koreans. Koreans have--there's a clear
hierarchy when you speak in Korean, the respect. It's not just the
formal versus informal. There's a layer of formality and all that, and
those things were really paid attention to here, yes, which I thought
was, especially from young people was kind of surprising to me.
00:46:33
Cline:
Closer to the homeland.
00:46:34
Chung Ryu:
Right.
00:46:35
Cline:
When did you get married?
00:46:39
Chung Ryu:
July second, 1988. I got married after I passed the bar, after I started
my job and I had time to plan, and I was eligible to take a week of
vacation. That's when we got married. We got married Fourth of July
weekend, that weekend, because then I got one additional day of vacation
that I could take for my honeymoon.
00:47:07
Cline:
Okay. Well, it's the time that you had suggested that we end, so we'll
pick up from the point where you're married, you're working. This would
be the Attorney General's Office job?
00:47:17
Cline:
Yes.
00:47:21
Cline:
And I'm sure you've settled somewhere in Los Angeles, and we'll find out
where that is and what happens next in the road that leads to this
office here as a judge in the Superior Court.
00:47:35
Chung Ryu:
All right, I look forward to it.
00:47:35
Cline:
Thanks for today.
[End of interview]
00:00:00
Cline:
Today is Wednesday, September tenth, 2008. This is Alex Cline
interviewing Judge Tammy Chung Ryu on, what is this, our fifth
session.
00:00:18
Chung Ryu:
Yes, I think so.
00:00:19
Cline:
Amazing. Good afternoon.
00:00:22
Chung Ryu:
Good afternoon.
00:00:23
Cline:
Thanks again for taking some time out of your busy schedule. Last time we
talked about your move to L.A., your UCLA Law School education. We
talked some about some of the organizations in L.A. that serve the
Korean community, including the Korean [American] Bar Association
[KABA], that you were involved in, and we also touched on your marriage
to your husband, James Ryu, and today we're going to continue from that
point. My first question is somewhat of a follow-up question, which is,
you mentioned besides KABA that you were involved in KAC, the Korean
American Coalition, and I wanted to ask you sort of a two-part question.
One is how you got involved in that particular organization, and what
your awareness was of other organizations serving the Korean community
in L.A. around that time.
00:01:23
Chung Ryu:
I got involved in KAC, I believe, and it's been a long time, more than
twenty years, through people I'd met at school, and through the church I
started going to with my then boyfriend, now husband. I think KAC was
pretty much the organization, especially for young people, because they
did a lot of social stuff besides community activism I guess you would
say. So whenever I went to the meetings as a law student, there were a
lot of people that I had a lot in common with, people similar to me in
age, being very 1.5-generation Korean American, so I started going to
the meetings and I volunteered. They had a legal affairs committee which
I and another law-student friend of mine were chairpersons of, and I
don't remember now what we did. Maybe we provided some information on
laws that were pending, or propositions that were coming by.
00:02:40
Chung Ryu:
As for other Korean organizations, aside from the bar association, there
was a Korean Family Service Center, which predominantly was run by
first-generation women, professional, like people who were on the
social-welfare side. Then there was also--I think KYCC [Koreatown Youth
and Community Center] existed at that time, because I knew some of the
people that were involved. Another organization besides the Korean
American Federation--
00:03:18
Cline:
Yes, there's what was then, I think, the Korean Federation.
00:03:20
Chung Ryu:
Korean Federation probably. It's called "Han In Hwe" in Korean, but it's
predominantly first generation. Usually people our father's age got
involved in it. There was another organization that provided health care
[KHEIR (Korean Health, Education, Information and Research Center)],
what is that? I know people who were involved in it. Anyway, they still
exist now. The name escapes me. It provided health education and, you
know, free shots, immunization shots and things like that, and elderly
checkups. I think they still do that a lot. So those were the
organizations. I chose to be involved in KAC, because it dealt more with
Korean American or issues in the mainstream that dealt with minorities,
such as very discriminatory portrayal of Asian Americans. I think at
that time, you know, trying to get people registered to vote was not as
important. I think that became much more important after the [1992 Los
Angeles] riots. So it was half social, half kind of a community-activity
type of organization.
00:04:47
Cline:
Right. Aside from these organizations, what was your sense of what was in
place in the community to help immigrants coming from Korea, and what
was your sense of what perhaps their unique issues or challenges were
upon moving to Los Angeles?
00:05:08
Chung Ryu:
I probably wasn't as aware as some other people who grew up in L.A.,
because I came from Northern California and I didn't grow up in L.A., so
I probably wasn't as aware as some other people.
00:05:29
Cline:
I guess really what I'm--
00:05:31
Chung Ryu:
But what I became aware is, people's lack of knowledge of the law, and
also the legal process, and I always knew that just from hearing stories
from my parents through the Korean newspaper, you know, people not
putting things in writing, for instance, because everything is done
through just oral agreement, and everything is done through honor, you
know, and there's no real [unclear] honor system really in the United
States that you could rely on. So I think I became more aware of that
through the bar association activities, and that's because we had a pro
bono law day, or an education seminar every year in May, and it was
predominantly to the first-generation Korean-speaking people that we
provided legal advice, some limited legal services.
00:06:36
Chung Ryu:
I also became aware later that, you know, Koreans were not always on the
victim side, or the responding side to legal issues. Sometimes, you
know, such as like landlord-tenant, or employer-employee type of thing,
because I volunteered when I was in law school--it's Neighborhood Legal
Services, but it was part of the Legal Aid Foundation, and they had
funding to try to deal with labor issues, like, for instance, people who
were not getting paid overtime, or were required to work hours that were
beyond the legal limit. So I went to Little Tokyo site, and in L.A.'s
proper Koreatown site to do intake, and then there was a lawyer who
supervised me, that I would get information and then advise the clients.
They were all free legal services, and I found out that there were a lot
of Korean business owners who were breaking the law by not providing
proper, either overtime pay, that was the predominant issue, sometimes
job conditions, and they were predominantly restaurant workers. I found
that some of them were not documented, and so they were taken advantage
of by their Korean employers, and working, you know, fifty, sixty hours
a week. And it's not that they just won't get paid overtime, they
sometimes would not get paid, and these employees didn't feel that they
could go to the police and make a report, or go to the labor
commissioner. I don't think they even knew that there was such a person
or organization. But because they were not documented, and it was
actually when conditions were so unbearable that they would come and ask
for our services.
00:08:48
Chung Ryu:
Then there were other places that I volunteered where, you know, there
was discrimination in Koreatown in terms of renting out apartment
buildings. There were managers or owners of apartment buildings that
wouldn't rent to certain types of people that they felt were not
appropriate, you know, and violating housing laws, and discriminating
against groups. So I remember posing as a potential renter, and I think
it was part of either the Asian American Legal Center, or Legal Aid
group that I was volunteering for, to discover discrimination, possible
discrimination in renting houses or apartments in Koreatown. So through
my experience I just realized that we were not always on the victim side
of the law, that we were also sometimes the people who were taking
advantage of others.
00:09:53
Cline:
Right. How involved was the church in helping immigrant families in Los
Angeles around then?
00:10:05
Chung Ryu:
Because I went to English ministry, I think it's kind of different. But
we were part of a Korean ministry as well, Korean language, and just
from what I've learned over time, it's mostly, foremost, a socialization
of Korean through Korean American ways. I think it provides them with a
support group, you know, someplace where they can go and receive
support, either spiritually, mostly through fellowship, you know, with
other Koreans, and I'm sure they can get a lot of their information and
advice through other church members. It was very rare that they would
actually have classes or anything else that would help the first
generation, but, you know, I'm sure you've probably read and heard that
for Koreans who come to the United States, church is one way to get
assimilated, or get introduced to the American culture, and their kids
are sent to Sunday schools where they're taught in English, and that's
kind of another way for them to learn the American culture and language.
So I think that's the way that church provided support mostly, and I
think it still does that. That's one of their primary functions for the
immigrants, and I think there are some churches now that are doing more,
such as--and I think there are community organizations that have
realized that churches are great venues and resource for them if they
want to get a word out about, say, domestic violence, you know, because
Koreans actually have the highest rate of domestic violence of any other
group, any ethnic group in the whole L.A. [Los Angeles] County.
00:12:03
Cline:
Yes. I was headed there.
00:12:07
Chung Ryu:
So I think there are lot of organizations that are trying to reach out to
Koreans to teach them, to provide them with counseling or other kinds of
support, and I think they've realized that churches are great venues. So
I've received a lot of requests to introduce people to church leaders,
to see if they would be open to having that kind of presentation at
their churches.
00:12:34
Cline:
So who was kind of holding these people's hands when they came here, and
explaining, for example, things about just kind of the infrastructure
here, about how you get settled, what kind of forms you have to fill
out, how you deal with not just the legality, but just the practicality
of life, you know, utilities, just getting a car? I mean, obviously
there have to be some major hurdles you have to overcome, and I'm
guessing the biggest has to be language, so who was helping these
people, from your experience?
00:13:18
Chung Ryu:
I assume they were primarily family members who were already here, and
it's probably their children who are more fluent in English that were
helping them, because I played that role when I was growing up, for my
parents, you know, reading documents that were sent to our house and so
forth. I also think that the people, friends that they make at churches,
in their church, would also be the person, either through their pastor
and getting introduced to people who would help out, that would be a
primary way. I think the community organizations only are contacted when
there are problems that arise, you know, like losing money through an
unenforceable contract, or you know, there were a lot of issues like
that, you know, leases, issues with leases that had expired, or terms
they didn't understand that they agreed to, that type of thing.
00:14:26
Chung Ryu:
Over time I've seen community organizations really provide that type of
service more and more, like the Korean Family Service Center, and I was
on the board for many years there. They really reached out to Korean
people who were involved in domestic violence, not just between spouses
but with parents and children. You know, they became certified through
the court to be a provider of counseling services, so that batterers and
victims can go there for counseling, which was really critical because
there probably wasn't a Korean-language provider of those kind of
services that people can go to per their probation or other conditions,
you know, once they actually get into the system, the criminal system.
So it was really needed, and so I think the community organizations
really stepped up over time to provide a lot of needed services.
00:15:35
Cline:
Right. And certainly a lot changed after 1992.
00:15:39
Chung Ryu:
Right.
00:15:41
Cline:
So let's talk first about during this period, what kind of changes you
started to see happening in Koreatown as you've been here for a while,
and you're providing services to people who are in Koreatown with some
of these organizations that you mentioned. You're starting to see more
and more immigrants, I imagine, coming into the area, and things
starting to grow. What kind of changes do you remember seeing that might
be important to remember?
00:16:15
Chung Ryu:
I think the riots actually made a huge change. Prior to that, I think
things were kind of routine it seemed to me. I don't remember realizing
or noticing anything significant, and probably because I didn't grow up
in L.A., and I was too busy studying and then getting a job, and then
getting married, you know. And I didn't live in L.A. or Koreatown area,
so I think I didn't notice those things as much. But I think when the
riots happened in 1992, that really brought everything to the
forefront.
00:17:02
Cline:
Right, right.
00:17:05
Chung Ryu:
And I think people just became more aware of their situation, you know,
how they really lacked knowledge, how important it was for them to
really learn the English language, to reach across other groups, reach
out, and to help each other understand the cultures, not to be
misunderstood by people of different color or people in a different
community, and realizing we needed to empower ourselves, because we
really had no influence or power. I think a lot of people kind of
thought, well, if we just lived as good citizens, not break laws, and we
all really worked hard, generally speaking, I think, to become
successful, then things would be okay. It's kind of like, you know, you
live that way and you're supposed to get rewarded by not having bad
things happen to you, you know. But the riots I think made us realize
that's not going to be the situation, and that's when everybody, I think
all the communities got activated, and really did a lot more than they
ever did before.
00:18:25
Cline:
Okay. Well, we're headed towards that unavoidable mountain of
information. But to return to this question, even though it sounds maybe
somewhat trivial, do you remember seeing, other than I guess geographic
growth, different kinds of businesses coming in, changes in kind of the
level of relative opulence or lack thereof of some of the newer
businesses going into the area, or anything like that?
00:19:02
Chung Ryu:
Actually, I remember being surprised at seeing small Korean-owned
businesses in the suburbs, you know, because I live in the suburbs. I
live in a small city called Lomita in the South Bay area. It's one of
the smallest cities in L.A. County, and we had a Korean restaurant, we
had a Korean-owned gas station, and we had a Korean-owned dry cleaners.
And later on I heard there was a Korean-owned dry cleaners up in Palos
Verdes Hills, you know, where at that time there were probably not as
many Koreans there. It just amazed me that people, Koreans'
entrepreneurial, I guess, spirit or need, made them go into
neighborhoods where they were clearly a minority, where even though
their language was very limited, they still tried to own their own
business and become successful that way, and also maybe perhaps to move
to areas, you know, cities where their kids can better assimilate, or
faster assimilate into American culture. And it kind of amazed me that,
you know, they would be so daring to do that, instead of settling in
predominantly Korean areas like Koreatown, or maybe even the valley, you
know, but they chose not to do that. So that kind of--I remember being
surprised whenever I realized that certain businesses in my local area
were owned by Koreans, because there were very few Koreans in
Lomita.
00:20:53
Cline:
How much of that do you think was the quest for the better school?
00:21:02
Chung Ryu:
I know that a lot of people moved to Torrance area, which has a big
Korean population now, for the better schools, because L.A. [Los
Angeles] Unified [School District] was really big. You know, and even
though I live in Lomita, a lot of what I did was in Torrance, because
it's right next to Lomita, and Torrance is such a big city. You know,
even now you have people, like in Palos Verde area, that live in
apartments so that their kids can go to the schools in that district.
And people are surprised, because they think there are no apartments in
Palos Verdes, but it's not true. There are lots of apartments hidden,
you know, there. I also know that there are actually kids from Korea who
are living with families that are not their own. You know, they're
getting educated here, away from their families in Korea, and even
though, you know, I was kind of like that for a little while, in the
sense that my parents sent me and my sister to live alone for a few
years to go to school, but you know, I had been in the United States for
a while then. But you have kids who are coming from Korea living
sometimes with strangers, you know, so they could get education here. In
fact, I have my childrens' dentist who is I think originally from
England, but she hosted a Korean American child while she was going to
high school, and she talks to me about her, and she is now in college.
So it's kind of amazing that they would find somebody in the United
States who would host their child, and then their child would then live
with them to go to school away from their families. So that's kind of, I
think, I guess the length that Koreans would go to better educate their
children.
00:23:01
Cline:
Yes. During your time here in L.A. as a student and beyond, did you have
any awareness of, or meet any Korean adoptees, Koreans who were raised
by non-Korean families?
00:23:17
Chung Ryu:
Yes, I met a few. Yes, I met a few, and one of them was a lawyer that I
worked with through Korean American Bar Association activities. I knew
one who was a writer for my husband's magazine [KoreAm Journal] for a
long time, and I actually knew twins, women, young women who were very
active, at least one of them in the national Democratic DNC, Democratic
National Committee, and they worked on the convention and worked for
different Democratic politicians. And my husband through his magazine
came in contact with the organizations that played a role in helping
Americans adopt kids from Korea, and my husband talked a lot about this
camp that they have in Colorado every year for adoptees, that the
parents have actually organized. I think it's the Holt [International]
organization.
00:24:34
Cline:
Oh yes, it's one of the agencies. Right.
00:24:36
Chung Ryu:
Yes, and they help the parents organize this Korean American adoptee camp
every year, and all the adoptees come together, and there are classes
and lectures and talks regarding their Korean American identity, to help
them get a sense of who they are. So I've heard of that, and I've read a
lot of articles about that from my husband's magazine.
00:25:03
Cline:
What was your feeling about that, being a Korean immigrant here?
00:25:09
Chung Ryu:
I had to really admire them, because a lot of them grew up, you know,
like in Minnesota or--
00:25:18
Cline:
Yes, exactly.
00:25:18
Chung Ryu:
--you know, places where aside from being an adoptee, they really didn't
have other Koreans that they could socialize with.
00:25:28
Cline:
Right, or even Asians.
00:25:29
Chung Ryu:
Yes, or even Asians, you're right. And it's interesting that they all
ended up in L.A., where there are a lot of Korean Americans. And some of
them have actually looked for their birth parents. Actually, one person
that I know, whose story I know well, is also in the news. It's the
Olympic skiier [Toby Dawson]. We even have the cereal box with his face
on it, [Sugar] Frosted Flakes.
00:26:05
Cline:
I know who you're talking about, right. I can't come up with it
either.
00:26:08
Chung Ryu:
He lives in Palm Springs now. He's trying to be a golfer. Oh, my god, his
name escapes me. Anyway, he's an adoptee, and he became really famous
because he won the downhill skiing in the Olympics, representing the
United States, and because of that it became a real big deal, and then
there was a huge news thing about him trying to find his father, and so
many people coming forward claiming that they were his father and so
forth. He actually met his father and his half brother in Korea, which
was a huge media event. But you know, just I can't imagine what it would
be like to grow up in a family where you don't look like any of your
family members, and it's so obvious that you've been adopted, not born
into the family.
00:27:07
Chung Ryu:
I also wonder how difficult it must have been for the parents of adopted
children to deal with some of the issues that may have come up while
they were growing up. And sometimes I really feel kind of bad for them,
because I'm sure they went through some time of questioning, you know,
whether they're really loved. I mean, I guess that may apply to
everybody who's adopted, but also it's just more pronounced, because you
look so different, you know?
00:27:46
Cline:
Right. You're conspicuous. Yes, interesting. So after you got married, is
that when you moved to Lomita, or did you live somewhere else at that
point?
00:28:02
Chung Ryu:
We moved to Lomita right after we got married. We bought a townhouse
there, and moved there as soon as we got married. Yes.
00:28:12
Cline:
And you were working for the [California State] Attorney General's
Office?
00:28:15
Chung Ryu:
Right.
00:28:15
Cline:
Describe, if you will, what your work was like there when you were a
newly married, newly employed Angeleno, commuting from Lomita.
00:28:29
Chung Ryu:
Right. Our office was in mid-Wilshire [area], actually heart of Koreatown
at that time. I enjoyed working. It was a great place to work. Everybody
was really nice, and I was the only Korean American in the L.A. office
of the State Attorney General's Office. I think at that time we must
have had probably around 800 attorneys throughout the state. There were
three major offices, Sacramento, San Francisco, and L.A., and I think
there was only one other Korean American in the entire office. What I
noticed immediately was that there were so few Korean American lawyers
in government offices, and I've actually since then used every
opportunity I could, you know, when I go to talk in the community or in
front of organizations, to try to get more Korean Americans involved, or
to work in the public sector. It became an easier thing to do, convince
people after the riots, because I think everybody realized it wasn't
enough for us to just be successful in our private-sector jobs, that we
actually needed to be in the public sector, where decision, you know,
policies and other things were made.
00:29:54
Chung Ryu:
But I remember just noticing that, and then being really happy when I
noticed that we had another Korean attorney join the office. I was so
happy that I--we get an e-mail of people who are joining the office, and
when I saw her name I immediately called her and welcomed her to the
office. And I got involved in the Asian Pacific [Islanders] American
Employees Association, which wasn't just attorneys. It was everybody in
the Department of Justice, so it included investigators, paralegals,
secretaries, and peace officers. So I got involved that way to try to
get more Asian Americans into the A.G.'s [attorney general's] Office,
also to, you know, break the glass ceiling in the A.G.'s Office.
00:30:48
Cline:
Wow. What was your interaction like generally in all your activities and
in your work with some of the other Asian communities that are in the
area here, because there are a lot.
00:30:59
Chung Ryu:
Right. L.A. is great, because there are just so many opportunities for
anyone who wants to be involved. You can do social-welfare type of work,
you can do political work, you can do all kinds of community activities.
So I think that's why you attract a lot of people who are idealistic to
come to L.A., so you have to kind of pick and choose, you know, what
groups you're going to be involved in, because there's only so much
time. The good thing about working in the A.G.'s Office was, unlike the
private law firms, you know, your hours are pretty much set, and you
pretty much had the evenings and weekends to spend as you will. You can
spend the time to work if you need to work, but there's no real pressure
to be at the office. So I was able to go to a lot of meetings on week
nights, and events, and I did a lot of that, even after I had my first
son [Nicholas], my first child, because just being involved in the
community was really important to me. And, you know, I chose, of course,
the bar association because I was an attorney, and it was really growing
a lot during that time.
00:32:19
Chung Ryu:
We had our annual dinners go from, you know, like thirty or forty people
to hundreds, so it was an exciting time to be involved in their growth,
and also we became kind of like the leaders in the community, too,
because there were a lot of--well, I guess more in the early-to-mid
1990s there were a lot of issues that were coming up. There was
Proposition 187, you know, the school voucher initiative [Proposition
38]. There were a lot of issues that our people in the Korean-speaking
community really needed to be educated on, and Korean American Bar
Association really did take the leadership role in doing a lot of
educating and all that, so that was an important organization for me.
And I kind of stopped my KAC activities, and spent more time in the
Korean American Family Service Center for a few years. Then I also
became really involved in my church, you know, and then after that was
raising children.
00:33:44
Cline:
So in response to that, when did you have your first child?
00:33:48
Chung Ryu:
Nicholas was born in 1991.
00:33:52
Cline:
Oh, so there were a few years there then where--
00:33:56
Chung Ryu:
Yes. We were married in '88, so, yes. I mean, I had him when I was
thirty, almost over thirty. At that time I thought, well, I was thirty,
I should have a baby. But in hindsight I was thinking, well, I could
have waited, because now to me being thirty is really kind of young, you
know--
00:34:21
Cline:
Interesting.
00:34:20
Chung Ryu:
--for a lot of responsibility. But we had been married two years. I was
approaching thirty, and we started getting questions from our
parents.
00:34:32
Cline:
Yes, I was wondering.
00:34:32
Chung Ryu:
So because they think thirty, they think it's really old.
00:34:36
Cline:
Yes, that's old. Right, according to that, yes.
00:34:39
Chung Ryu:
Yes. So we didn't have any difficulty, you know. We're very fortunate, so
Nicholas came along in 1991, and then we had our daughter [Audrey] in
1995, in December, and then I had a third one [Michael] two years
ago.
00:34:59
Cline:
Right. We're not quite there yet in this chronology. I also wanted to
know who the attorney general was when you started working in your
job.
00:35:09
Chung Ryu:
It was John Van de Kamp, so he actually in a way hired me to the office,
although he didn't personally interview me. But I need to tell you about
the interview, because I was interviewed by this woman who was head of
the section that I ultimately joined, which is the Health, Education,
and Welfare. That's another thing I liked about the A.G.'s Office was
that there were women who were in supervisory positions, and there were
actually a lot of women. I think about 30 to 40 percent of the attorneys
were women, you know, which was a lot at that time. I think now it may
be close to 50 [percent], or maybe more, just because it's a very family
friendly type of place. But I remember her telling me later on after I
got hired that one of the reasons she hired me was because I didn't fit
the stereotype of the typical Asian attorney, and I asked her what she
meant.
00:36:08
Cline:
What that is, yes.
00:36:10
Chung Ryu:
And it came out like in one of those lunch conversation type of things.
She said that--and I'm sure she had some experience interviewing Asian
American attorneys--she said that I wasn't quiet or appeared submissive,
that I appeared to be, you know, not aggressive, but you know, I talked
and not in a shy, I guess, voice, and all that.
00:36:41
Cline:
Some confidence, maybe.
00:36:42
Chung Ryu:
Yes, maybe. And I remember it was actually brought up when she
interviewed another Asian American attorney, and we were talking about
that interview and how she said I was very different, because I was not
a typical Asian American. And whenever I get a "compliment," quote,
unquote, like that, there's a mixed emotion about that, you know--
00:37:13
Cline:
Sure, yes.
00:37:14
Chung Ryu:
--because in a way I'm glad I'm not the typical Asian American, but then
on the other hand it's kind of sad that they think that a typical Asian
American is a certain way, and they don't like that. They don't like the
typical Asian American. That's what they mean when they say, "You're
different, and that's why I hired you." So over the years I've received
well-intended comments like that from, you know, colleagues and other
people--
00:37:42
Cline:
Non-Asians, obviously.
00:37:43
Chung Ryu:
Non-Asians, and I have received them with mixed emotions.
00:37:49
Cline:
Yes. It is sad that they're even thinking along those lines at all, but
people do, I guess.
00:37:55
Chung Ryu:
Yes.
00:37:58
Cline:
It sounds interesting in that there were obviously Asian women involved
in this end of work, but what about Asian men? Were there a lot of Asian
male attorneys coming up at that point in that office?
00:38:12
Chung Ryu:
There were some Asian male attorneys, but they were mostly Japanese and
Chinese. You don't see--I don't think I saw a Korean American male
attorney for a long time. I'm trying to think of one. We've had Korean
American women attorneys hired and working there, but I don't remember a
Korean American male attorney. It's really strange.
00:38:40
Cline:
That is surprising.
00:38:42
Chung Ryu:
Right. And all the attorneys that I was in the Asian American Employees
Association with were all Japanese or Chinese-American, which in a way
if you look at it is not surprising, because when I started looking at
judges, you know, we've had Chinese and Japanese-American judges since
the seventies, and there are a lot, and a lot of them are starting to
retire now, because they've been on the bench for over twenty years. But
we've only had maybe two Korean American judges who've been on the
bench, and who have either retired or passed on, you know, and that's so
small a number compared to all the other groups.
00:39:29
Cline:
Yes, although certainly the Japanese and the Chinese have at least been
here longer.
00:39:35
Chung Ryu:
They've been here a long time, you're right.
00:39:36
Cline:
But still, yes, there have been Koreans here for a while, too.
00:39:40
Chung Ryu:
Right.
00:39:42
Cline:
Interesting. So how long were you with the Attorney General's Office
then?
00:39:50
Chung Ryu:
I was there for fourteen years and eight months before--when I became a
judge, I quit that office. I resigned from that office and went directly
to the bench, so that was the only job as an attorney that I had, yes,
and I worked there all that time because I really loved working
there.
00:40:15
Cline:
And you were able to raise your at least first two children during those
years.
00:40:19
Chung Ryu:
Right.
00:40:20
Cline:
And you stayed in Lomita, evidently. Did you stay in the same place, or
did you relocate at some point?
00:40:26
Chung Ryu:
No, we stayed in the same house for fifteen years, so we moved after I
became judge, and after we had enough money to make the down payment in
another place. We had to move primarily because our kids were getting
older, and I wanted them to go to a better school district, or smaller
school district I guess.
00:40:54
Cline:
But you were still in Lomita, so was this just a better school, or a
different school district?
00:40:58
Chung Ryu:
Lomita schools are part of the L.A. Unified School District schools.
00:41:01
Cline:
Oh, I see.
00:41:01
Chung Ryu:
Even though we're a separate city, we never could get our own school
district, so we went to the local elementary school. They had a great
magnet or gifted-kids' program. But once you graduate and you go to
middle school, and then you think about the local high school, things
didn't look that safe, even though--
00:41:23
Cline:
Yes. All bets are off.
00:41:25
Chung Ryu:
Right, and I had become a judge by then, and I was doing juvenile
delinquency assignment, which meant kids who were charged with crimes,
and they're all under eighteen, and I had kids who were on probation who
were going to my local high school, and I really didn't want my son to
go to the same school that kids who were on probation to me were going.
And you know, you find out a lot about different high schools by being a
judge in juvenile court. It's very sad and it's very scary, you know. So
at that time I thought, well, not just for the quality of education, but
also for safety issues and what my son is going to be exposed to, you
know, there's a lot of violence on campus, a lot of weapons on campus,
not that you're not going to have any of that in any school. You're
going to have some of it, but you know, there's like less of it in
certain neighborhoods, and so that's why we moved from Lomita. We liked
Lomita City. It's very quiet, you know, safe. The city itself is
safe.
00:42:39
Cline:
Where did you move?
00:42:40
Chung Ryu:
We moved to Rancho Palos Verdes, three miles up the hill.
00:42:43
Cline:
Right, right. Okay.
00:42:46
Chung Ryu:
It had its own school district.
00:42:48
Cline:
Right. Okay. And during this period you're at the Attorney General's
Office, and you're involved in these community organizations and things.
You mentioned domestic violence. If there are any, what are some of the
other issues, particularly in terms of the legal end of things, that you
saw particularly affecting the Korean community?
00:43:14
Chung Ryu:
There was a lot of embezzlement going on, you know, in the Korean
community. There's a lot of breaking of contracts, you know, agreements.
Those were really common issues that we saw when we had our free legal
advice type of service provided to the Korean community. There's also,
you know, a lot of small cases, I think, like drunk driving, and I did
hear of, like, gang activity in Koreatown, but because I worked in the
Attorney General's Office and on the civil side, I really didn't have a
lot of information regarding that, because I wasn't in the D.A.'s office
or the City Attorney's Office.
00:44:07
Cline:
Right, criminal.
00:44:07
Chung Ryu:
And I didn't live in Koreatown, but I did hear a lot about things like
that, and I'm much more aware of it now that I've been a judge, and I
hear things from other judges or other attorneys.
00:44:24
Cline:
Interesting. During this time did you do any traveling back to South
Korea?
00:44:33
Chung Ryu:
I did. I did once just purely on my own, when my son was three, because
we visited Guam to basically visit my father, who was living there
still, and to get to Guam you actually--there are no direct flights. I
think I talked about that. So we thought, well, we should just go to
Seoul, Korea, and then visit all my other relatives, and then go to
Guam, you know, because you had to stop anyway, so it's not going to
cost you extra. So we did that, and I remember I don't really enjoy
going to Korea that much, because first of all, it's not a vacation,
like a relaxing vacation for me. I enjoy seeing my family and all that,
but language is always an issue, because I don't speak Korean all the
time, so I kind of have to switch. You know, it's almost like turning a
switch in your head. So I have to switch to my Korean brain, and it
takes a lot of effort. It's very hard to constantly be thinking and
speaking in Korean. And I'm always kind of embarrassed, feel guilty that
I didn't maintain my language.
00:45:49
Chung Ryu:
And then it became much more of an issue when I took my son, because he
was three and he didn't speak Korean, so none of my relatives could
communicate with him. So they had to speak their really broken English,
and my son didn't understand them because their accents are very
pronounced, and I could tell that everybody's kind of thinking, well,
how come Tammy didn't teach her son Korean, you know? So that type of
thing happens when I go to Korea.
00:46:18
Chung Ryu:
But I've also gone to Korea as part of a group that was sponsored by
organizations. I went, invited from the Korean Visitors Ministry or
something like that, and what they do is they have different programs to
invite Koreans who settled outside of Korea, and they would invite them
to kind of promote Korea, to rekindle our loyalty, I guess, to Korea.
It's kind of like PR [public relations] for South Korea. So I was
invited to tour Korea with a group of people, and that was really
interesting, because there were Koreans from Russia, China, Italy,
Canada, I mean all parts of the United States, but also South America.
It was really interesting, because that one Korean person from Russia
could not speak Korean, but could speak Russian and English, so he
always had a translator who accompanied him, because everybody else was
bilingual in Korean and their native language. But we were the only--I
took my husband with me--we were the only persons that he actually could
speak with, because he could speak English, and nobody else spoke
Russian. It was really interesting, because you learn about the cultures
of the countries that they lived in, and some of them had lived there a
long time, and they're all interesting people, because they've all done
different things in the country that they settled.
00:48:09
Chung Ryu:
I've also gone there as part of the--the Korean word is Pyung Tong. It's
the [Council on the Democratic and] Peaceful Reunification of North and
South Korea, and every year they have this huge conference of Koreans
from all over the world, who are nominated and selected by the consul
general of South Korea who's in their country or city, and it's a big
deal to first-generation Koreans to be nominated and go. But after the
riots especially, I think that one thing that really happened that did
not happen before was the first-generation organizations all of a sudden
wanted young people on their boards and their committees, and be
involved, and they all try to now speak English in their meetings, and
have events in the community in English, or at least bilingual. They did
more reaching out to the officials in the L.A. area, so I was invited to
a lot of those things just because I was involved in a lot of
organizations, and actually because I was working in the Attorney
General's Office, which is a prosecution office. In Korean culture,
Korean society, prosecutors are given high status. It's almost like
being a judge, because prosecutors in Korea have a lot of power. And
because there were so few prosecutors, or attorneys working in a
prosecution office, that I was kind of a known person in the community
because of that. So I was invited automatically to a lot of these
organizations or events from the first generation, and I think that's
one of the reasons why, you know, I got selected to be in that group. It
was a big group, forty to fifty people, and you had to be someone in the
community to be invited to go, and you know, that was a great
experience, too. They paid for almost the whole thing, you know, all
those people going. I mean, can you imagine the money they spent?
00:50:25
Cline:
Yes, amazing. We've run out of time.
00:50:29
Chung Ryu:
Oh, that's right. Okay.
00:50:30
Cline:
Next time we'll talk more about what your impressions of South Korea were
upon returning, because I'm sure it had changed quite a bit, and we'll
talk about the 1992 riots in Los Angeles, the unavoidable, monumental
topic. Okay?
00:50:48
Chung Ryu:
Right. Okay.
00:50:49
Cline:
All right. Back to work, I guess.
[End of interview]
00:00:00
Cline:
Today is September seventeenth, 2008. This is the rather-clogged-sounding
Alex Cline, interviewing Judge Tammy Chung Ryu for this, which is, I
believe, our sixth session. Once again, thank you for taking the time
out of your day and your schedule to do this. We talked last time about
your job at the [California State] Attorney General's Office, and we
ended talking about trips that you had taken to South Korea. You were
explaining how some of these trips were at the invitation of various
organizations, and that you would travel with groups of people
sometimes, Koreans from all over the world you mentioned.
00:00:53
Chung Ryu:
Right.
00:00:53
Cline:
And really the one thing that I wanted to follow up on in that area is
what your sense of change in South Korea was, especially the first time
you went back, or maybe even over multiple visits. I don't know how many
times you've been, but what is your sense of where South Korea seemed to
have headed since you left as a youngster?
00:01:23
Chung Ryu:
I think they were becoming much more affluent. When I left, as I had
discussed earlier, there were certain products that were kind of scarce,
like bananas, you know, certain types of fruit, beef and dairy products
were kind of hard to come by or very expensive. But when I have gone
back later, you know, there was plenty. There were big supermarkets
either under gigantic hotels or shopping centers, that were just packed
with food. I saw kids--they drink actually yogurt, because yogurt kind
of comes in a liquid form in Korea.
00:02:16
Cline:
Okay, like kefir, what we would call kefir?
00:02:18
Chung Ryu:
Yes. So they call it yogu-rut, which is kind of like yogurt pronounced
the Korean way, and you know, kids were drinking it. I remember when I
was growing up, there weren't kids who were kind of fat or chuncky.
00:02:31
Cline:
Oh yes.
00:02:31
Chung Ryu:
Yes. But there were more kids that I saw that were kind of overweight,
which was kind of a rare thing when I was growing up, so that, you know,
you can tell that Korea was becoming not really--it was no longer like a
Third World country, but more of a, I guess, successful or mainstream
type of country that's involved in a lot of things. Also, you know,
there were just a lot of cars, traffic jams. The traffic is really bad,
and when I was growing up, private citizens rarely had cars, owned their
own cars. But now you have, you know, two, three cars per family, kind
of like America, you know, and it was causing a traffic jam. There were
younger people driving, women driving, because before usually there were
drivers, and cars were belonging to companies or businesses that people
worked at, and now there were so many privately owned cars. So I
remember there being a lot of traffic, right.
00:03:46
Cline:
Were they driving on the same size roads, or had the roads also
changed?
00:03:53
Chung Ryu:
I never really paid attention when I was in Korea, because I always took
the bus. It was very rare that I actually rode in a regular car, except
maybe occasionally taking a taxi. I don't know if they tried to increase
the lanes or not, but parking was a problem, because they didn't
increase parking. With so many cars it was just really hard, so cars
were parked all over the place, and sometimes they were parked in these
small, residential streets, which were not meant to be occupied by cars,
not thoroughfares for cars. So if you have cars parked on those streets,
it's almost sometimes impossible for another car to go through that
street. So I just thought, well, it's really poor planning. But then,
you know, we have a poor public transportation system in L.A. [Los
Angeles], too.
00:04:49
Cline:
That's true, and plenty of traffic despite the huge size of our roads.
What about when you get outside the city? I don't know how much you did
that, but what was it like?
00:05:02
Chung Ryu:
I did, especially when I traveled with Koreans who were living in
different countries. We actually were given tours of various cities, and
met mayors, and were fed by dignitaries from different cities, and we
went to the mountains and visited palaces and so forth. You know,
traffic-wise there wasn't as much outside of Seoul, and I realized Korea
was just a really beautiful country, and I did not really appreciate it
when I was growing up. But it was really beautiful country, and I really
appreciated the country that I was born in, and I think that was
probably the intent of the organization that sponsored us to come, was
to kind of help us rekindle our affinity with our mother country, and
somehow that might benefit South Korea down the road. But it was kind of
like a public-relations type of travel.
00:06:11
Chung Ryu:
So I noticed, you know, there being a lot of beauty outside of Seoul, the
mountains and hills, but the culture was the same, you know. From
women's perspective I kind of felt that it was still pretty much a
paternalistic, chauvinistic type of society, primarily because I was the
person that was invited, but my husband [James Ryu] went with me, at my
invitation. Wherever we went, they automatically thought my husband was
the person that was invited, the guest of the organization, not me,
because they automatically assume that it was the male person, and that
has happened many times that I've gone to Korea and was introduced as a
representative of something, and people, if my husband was with me, they
would always assume he was the one, and not me. And people would always
be surprised.
00:07:20
Cline:
Wow. You mentioned how you went once, I think maybe the first time when
your son [Nicholas Ryu] was three years old.
00:07:25
Chung Ryu:
Right. That was a social, purely personal visit.
00:07:30
Cline:
And you mentioned that it was difficult because everyone was kind of at a
loss as to how to best communicate in that situation. I was curious to
know if you had reasons, what they were for why you apparently hadn't
been teaching your son Korean.
00:07:52
Chung Ryu:
Yes, we had reasons. First, because English was just more comfortable for
my husband and myself. We speak English to each other, you know,
probably 99 percent of the time. There are certain Korean phrases that
you use because there's no English version of it and it fits right in,
so we do that, but so because English is so comfortable for me, it was
easier to communicate with a baby in English, because I wouldn't have to
think about what I was about to say, and I didn't want to talk baby talk
all the time with him, and that's how I would be talking to him if I had
to choose, if I chose to speak Korean.
00:08:36
Cline:
Interesting.
00:08:36
Chung Ryu:
Also, my son was very slow in speaking. We had a Spanish-speaking
babysitter, and we spoke English, and then my in-laws and my mom were
encouraged to speak Korean to him, and I think we thought that by the
time he became three and he was still not speaking that much, we thought
that all the different languages were causing him to be confused. He had
to start preschool, and so we decided that we're just going to not even
try to speak Korean, you know. I would try to speak Korean to him at
times, but what I would do is I would speak in English, and then I
realized, oh no, I should be speaking Korean. Then I would translate
what I just said. And I read somewhere that if one person speaks two
different languages to a baby, then the baby can get confused, because
it's easier for them to identify the person and the language
together.
00:09:37
Cline:
Exactly, right.
00:09:37
Chung Ryu:
So then I thought, it's impossible for me or my husband to speak Korean
with him fulltime, so we wouldn't do it. And other people just kind of
spoke English to him, too, because you know, it was important to them
that they communicate with him.
00:09:58
Cline:
Right. Did your children ever ultimately learn Korean?
00:10:00
Chung Ryu:
I did send them to Korean school after school, from elementary up, and
they learned how to read and write, but it was not meant to learn oral
skills. So my son went for, you know, from kindergarten on to in the
seventh grade, but he picked up very little Korean. It's really funny,
because the administrator spoke in Korean to the kids, but he picked up
very little. My daughter, [Audrey], who went through the same
after-school program, picked up a lot, so she can write and she can read
a lot more, and she can understand and speak Korean a lot more. So I
think my son was just kind of not a language person, and my daughter
is.
00:10:50
Cline:
Right, he didn't take to it. I wanted to know a couple of things that
relate to our last session. One is, you mentioned as part of your
traveling also that you went to visit your father in Guam, that he had
returned to Guam. Can you clarify what happened there? I mean, evidently
your parents separated.
00:11:15
Chung Ryu:
Right. They got divorced when I was thirty, so after I got married. You
know, I have to think back now, because they were living in Northern
California when I was going through college and law school. I think they
sold the supermarket, the business that we bought and I was working at
during college, through college. They sold it while I was in law school,
and then my dad decided to go work in Korea for a company. I think part
of the reason was his parents were, you know, getting frail, and he's
the first son, and I think he kind of felt like he had abandoned them,
and he needed to go take care of them, at least that's kind of the
reason he gave. So he went, and I don't think my mom really objected,
because her kids were all here in the United States. I think that might
have been a little bit of tension there. Maybe my dad wanted her to go
with him, but she chose to stay, because all her kids were in the United
States, and it's not that easy to travel back and forth.
00:12:36
Chung Ryu:
So they became physically separated, but they have gone through that for
long periods of time before. At some point in time they decided that
they're going to separate. So they went through separation while he was
in Korea, and she was here in the United States. Then sometime after
that, he went back to Guam, because his younger sister's husband had a
small construction company by that time in Guam, and my dad never liked
working for other people. He just wasn't good at it. So I think he
decided to form his own small company, working more as a contractor, not
to build things anymore, but to do remodeling, and he had big contracts
like remodeling an entire hotel, like all the rooms, kind of like
semi-decorating and, you know, doing that. So he got into that business,
and that's why he went back to Guam, because there were still
opportunities for that. So this was in the nineties.
00:13:49
Cline:
Okay. Also, I wanted to know if while you were at the Attorney General's
Office you continued the entire time--I was going to look it up, but I
didn't--if you worked for John Van de Kamp the whole time, or if there
was a shift at some point.
00:14:06
Chung Ryu:
There was a change. After John Van de Kamp left, it was [George]
Deukmejian, yes, and he was attorney general maybe for eight years.
00:14:16
Cline:
Oh, wow.
00:14:16
Chung Ryu:
And then after that it was--oh, my god, his name escapes me. He's from
Hayward, he was pro tem, oh, my gosh, and he's the one who wrote a
letter for me to become a bench, and I was his liaison to the Korean
American community. Oh, my gosh. Anyway, he was the attorney general
right before Mr. [Edmund G. "Jerry"] Brown, and his name for some reason
escapes me.
00:14:56
Cline:
I can't think of it either.
00:14:56
Chung Ryu:
Can we just go off for a second, because it's bothering me. Here.
[Tape recorder turned off]
00:15:05
Cline:
Okay, we're back on, and we have the name.
00:15:07
Chung Ryu:
It's Bill Lockyer, right. So I had gone through at least three attorney
generals--I don't think I missed any--and, you know, different attorney
generals really don't make a lot of difference in the job that I did. It
did for certain units or divisions within the Attorney General's Office,
but I did civil law, and I represented government agencies mostly, and
the only thing that would really impact what I did was when there's a
new governor, then he would have to bring a whole new cabinet, and he
would appoint new directors or heads of departments, and new chief
counsel to each department. They may have different policies on certain
type of programs, and so that would either open us up to new lawsuits,
or prevent us from settling lawsuits, so that was what impacted my job
more than who the attorney general was.
00:16:08
Cline:
I see.
00:16:10
Chung Ryu:
But I had the closest relationship with Bill Lockyer. You know, there's
almost a thousand deputy attorneys general in the whole state, so I'm
one of a thousand attorneys, and I'm sure we have thousands of support
staff, too, and investigators and other people. But I got to know him
personally, because he wanted to reach out to minority communities,
especially in Los Angeles or Southern California, because he's from
Northern California. He spent his whole life, and he was a politician
from Northern California, and so he wanted to get to know the
communities in Southern California, so he tapped in-house resources. So
he had attorneys who worked in the L.A. office who were very, what he
deemed active in the community, become liaisons to their communities for
him.
00:17:08
Chung Ryu:
So I was asked to be his liaison to the Korean American community in Los
Angeles, and basically that kind of meant that I went to a lot of events
with him in the community. These were events that I would have gone
anyway, and I got to sit next to him at the Koreatown parade, and wave
my hand. So that was my first parade experience, because I was his
liaison, and I was asked to come and be in the parade car with him.
00:17:47
Cline:
Also related to this, you said you were involved in the community. Last
time you mentioned the Korean Family Service Center, and I wondered if
there was something more you could--we didn't really describe much about
what it does other than it deals a lot with domestic issues and that
sort of thing. But I wondered if you could just describe for the record
a little bit more about what the organization is, and its history or
who's behind it.
00:18:15
Chung Ryu:
Sure. My understanding is that it's actually kind of like a branch of
some sort of an organization that started in Korea, by this famous woman
who formed this nonprofit community organization to help victims of
domestic violence, and provide counseling that would help families. I
guess her vision was embraced by some people here in the L.A. Korean
community, and they started the Korean Family Service Center. When I
used to go to the board meetings, there were mostly older women,
first-generation women who were on the board. There were very few men on
the board, so that was probably a little unique, and it was probably the
most first-generation organization that I was involved in, because I
think all the meetings were in Korean. And, you know, it was a good
experience, because I got to know a lot of women who felt very
passionate about domestic violence, family mental health, immigrants'
mental health, and a lot of them were not working outside of the home,
but this was something they felt very passionate about, so they spent a
lot of time volunteering, doing intakes. Some of them had training as
counselors, either in Korea or took some classes here, so we had some
women who were volunteering as counselors during the daytime, so that
was very significant.
00:20:11
Chung Ryu:
They also had mini-conferences. I remember attending a conference in USC
[University of Southern California]. They actually have this
organization all over the country, so I think they had a conference
where leadership from all over the country and different probably major
cities that had the same or similar organizations came together and had
a conference. It was, you know, mostly geared towards women, and issues
involving women in Korean American families.
00:20:39
Cline:
Was there a particular religious bent to it, or was it purely
secular?
00:20:45
Chung Ryu:
I don't remember religion ever being discussed.
00:20:51
Cline:
Okay, I was just curious. Also, this I know points to a potentially
larger question, which you don't need to really totally explore, but
what does this organization sort of suggest about the role, either in
reality or in potentiality, for women in the Korean American community
and what they can do to contribute?
00:21:14
Chung Ryu:
You know, Korean women are really smart and resilient, in my opinion, and
I've had that comment made by a lot of people, non-Koreans, too. What
that organization has shown me was that Korean women can actually do
whatever they want to do. They can form an organization, make it
successful, provide absolutely necessary service in the community, but
they're kind of picky about what they choose to do, so if they really
wanted to do something they could do it. Maybe there's some cultural
issues that prevent them from, you know, being on a board of other types
of organizations. But so that's one thing that helped me realize that,
and through that organization and other organizations I've come to meet
a lot of very intelligent, strong, secure Korean American women who have
shown great leadership.
00:22:33
Chung Ryu:
So I know that we still have firsts in the Korean community, you know.
Just a few years ago we had the first Korean woman president of the
Korean Chamber of Commerce of L.A., and it's kind of amazing we're still
having firsts of things, you know, first president of banks, you know,
women, that's just recent, just a few years ago that we achieved that.
So although we're in the twenty-first century and we're still having
firsts in women, I think it's not because we don't have women who are
qualified. I think it has a lot to do with cultural issues, both on
women's side as well as men's side.
00:23:15
Cline:
Right. But it appears to be slowly changing.
00:23:17
Cline:
Yes. And then you're a first as well. So you're working in the Attorney
General's Office, you're living in Lomita. 1992 is the year the Korean
American community became at the forefront of many Americans'
consciousness for the first time, because of the riots that some refer
to as an uprising, and others don't, in the wake of the Rodney King
verdict.
00:23:50
Chung Ryu:
Right.
00:23:49
Cline:
Where were you when they started to happen, and what do you remember
about it?
00:23:56
Chung Ryu:
Well, all Koreans know, because it's April twenty-ninth, because Koreans
always--it's "sa-i-gu," which means four-two-nine, which is April
twenty-nine. I remember, I think the verdict came out late in the
afternoon. They probably waited. You know, sometimes they wait for
significant verdicts to come out after most people have left work. I
remember being at home and hearing. I don't know why I was home at that
time, but I was with my son who had just turned one year old, and I was
home and I was watching the news on TV, which was kind of strange for
me, so I don't know what made me turn on the TV. But I remember watching
TV and seeing that man, the truck driver--
00:24:46
Cline:
Oh, right. Reginald Denny.
00:24:48
Chung Ryu:
on the intersection of--Reginald Denny, right--Florence [Avenue] and I've
forgot what street [Normandie Avenue] that was, being pulled out. Well,
I think they were playing it over and over, being pulled out of his
truck and being beaten. I remember seeing that and thinking, something
is not right. I mean, you see and hear violence on TV, but violence
because of a verdict is very different, and people were attacking other
people just because of their race, or because they were different from
them, or because they wanted to take out their anger and rage, and
that's very different. And it was on a mass scale, you know. It's not
just one person, but a whole group of people or a community, you know,
entire community getting upset.
00:25:42
Chung Ryu:
I remember getting a little bit scared because of that, watching that.
Then that night my husband had a meeting in Koreatown. It was a
church-related meeting, and he was at a friend's. A friend of ours who
was a member of our church, he had an office in Koreatown, one of the
highrises, and they were meeting at his office. He was a lawyer, my
friend. So my husband and some other people were meeting at the office,
and I remember calling him to let him know what happened, the verdict
came out and there's stuff going on. And he said he could see fires from
the window, from my friend's office.
00:26:32
Chung Ryu:
And the next day I received word that our building was going to be
closed. I think a lot of businesses in downtown were closed, and so we
were told not to report to work, at least for that day. But me being
kind of a conscientious employee, I think I had something due in court,
or something I had to review, and I wanted to work at home but I didn't
have the materials. So I got my husband to drive me to downtown to get
my file on some case, and that's something that I will never forget,
because first of all, when you're driving on 110 Freeway and going
through South Central [Los Angeles], or South L.A., you could see fires
and smoke all over, and the sky was gray, filled with smoke. The freeway
was virtually empty, but there were some cars, and people were driving
really strangely. There were some people driving really fast, and then
there were some people driving incredibly slow, like they were almost
paralyzed, and I was thinking, you know, there's going to be a lot of
accidents, because people were driving very erratically.
00:27:56
Chung Ryu:
Another thing that happened was my husband had started his KoreAm Journal
magazine two years before, and he thought it would be great to, you
know, photograph some happenings regarding the riots for his magazine,
because he pretty much was the photographer and the graphic artist. You
know, he did everything except writing, and he thought, this would be a
perfect time for me to get some great pictures. I'm sure I objected, but
he went on and said, "Oh, I'm just going to take ten minutes." So what
happened was we took a detour, went to like near Alvarado Street or
something, on the cusp, you know, the edge of Koreatown area, and he
left me and my son, who's one, in the car, and he said, "I'll be back in
ten minutes. I'm just going to take a few pictures, and then we'll go
home."
00:28:50
Chung Ryu:
Well, that was a really long ten minutes, because I was sitting in the
car in the backseat, and I heard gunshots. I don't know if it was the
police, or people who were defending their property, because there were
looters everywhere. I remember hearing gunshots, and then I remember
seeing a whole bunch of people running by the car with stuff in their
arms, you know, like VCRs [video cassette recorders], you know, and
small TVs, and it was kind of obvious to me that they took those from
some business that they were looting. And I remember getting really
scared, thinking it's kind of like being in the middle of a war, you
know, and I had never experienced a war before. And I was thinking, this
is a really bad idea, because people are not acting normal, and it's not
safe for me to be here with my child. I was more scared for him, you
know, somebody going crazy. So as soon as my husband got back, we just
left and we went straight home. Yes, that was pretty scary.
00:30:09
Chung Ryu:
And then I heard of a friend of mine, a good friend of mine from law
school, I heard that he was defending his father, parents' store--I
think it's like a small mom-and-pop/liquor store in South Koreatown--on
the rooftop of the parents' building with a gun, you know, with other
employees, defending his parents' property. And I remember thinking,
he's going to get shot, or he's going to shoot somebody and maybe kill
somebody, and it's not only going to be the end of his career, but I was
thinking what a tragic thing that he's doing, you know. Defending
property is very different from defending life, so I didn't understand
why he had to take that step to defend property. But then you have to
kind of understand the Korean American immigrant community. You know,
his parents probably put him and his siblings through school through
that business. That's their livelihood, and they probably refused to
leave that business, so he had no choice but to go defend it, because
that was defending his parents, you know. So but there were people who
were doing stuff like that, really out of their character, and that's
what riots did.
00:31:44
Cline:
Did you get the information early on that it appeared, at least according
to some analyses at the time, that businesses in Koreatown were seeming
to be targeted?
00:31:54
Chung Ryu:
Yes. It was immediately apparent. Even watching the news, you know, you
saw all this looting going on in Koreatown area, and sometimes you would
see police officers standing and just watching, probably because there
weren't enough of them to stop them, but you know, the question is why
didn't they send a whole bunch of people? Because later on you see that
in Beverly Hills there were a lot of police defending property, and
there wasn't even hardly any looters there, so, you know, that's one of
the things that came out that was discussed a lot after the riots
ended.
00:32:34
Cline:
Right. What about the media portrayal of the event, what were your
feelings about that?
00:32:46
Chung Ryu:
I didn't think they were biased or there was really any problem at that
time. We were, I think, pretty much in shock, so I remember being glued
to the TV and just watching everything about what was going on, and you
know, your heart just has to break, knowing--I mean, I worked for my
parents in their small business, and you know how hard they work. You
know, it's a great sacrifice to the family. It is a choice that your
parents make, but you know, all the kids had to work at my parents'
store, and while we had that store we hardly ever had dinner together,
because it was open past dinnertime. So some of us were released early
to go home and have dinner and study, and some of us worked late, and we
took turns doing that. And I'm sure we didn't take family vacations, so
it really cuts into family time, family relationship, and a lot of
people don't have any choice, because they really can't have a job where
they have to speak English and understand everything that's going on in
their workplace, and they can't always work for other Koreans, so they
choose to open up their own business, and they put a lot into it. So to
watch those type of businesses burn down, and looted, it was just really
hard. It was hard to watch. And you're right, I mean, it made us wake
up, think that we can't just work, study, and be law abiding, and think
everything's going to be fine. It wasn't. Yes, we had to do something
else.
00:34:43
Cline:
So, of course, many people lost virtually everything, if not literally
everything, and some measures had to be taken to address these people's
need. What was your involvement in that, particularly since you were on
the legal end of things?
00:35:06
Chung Ryu:
Right. You know, I got involved in a lot of things through the Korean
American Bar Association. We immediately set up these pro bono clinics,
or sites where people can come and we can help them file insurance
claims, how to document their losses. It was actually amazing, because
we had attorneys who never came to anything that we did come out,
especially the bilingual ones, come out to provide service. We also had
the CPA [certified public accountant] group, that we never did anything
with, offer to jointly provide services, because we needed people who
were accountants and had a finance background to be able to go through
documents, help them file claims or doucment things, add up their
losses, what they can claim or not. So we spent days after the riots,
you know, being there and providing that service.
00:36:15
Chung Ryu:
The other thing, and this is a rather sad part of what happened, was we
realized that a lot of these businesses had insurance, but could not
file a claim against it because they were basically fraudulent. These
were, you know, insurance companies that were based in, like, the
Bahamas or places that's not within the arm or reach of the United
States law or jurisdiction, and these store owners were sold these
insurance policies through other Koreans, because obviously their
language is limited. So we found that a lot of them could not locate
their agent, or if they could locate their agent, couldn't get any help
in trying to file a claim and collect, and that was very common. So the
Korean American Bar Association helped this one law firm file a lawsuit
on a pro bono basis, like a class-action lawsuit, suing a lot of Korean
insurance brokers and the companies that they represented, so that the
business owners can collect something. That lawsuit lasted years, and I
think in the end only a few were able to collect. But it was kind of
sad, you know, because Korean business owners relied on Korean insurance
brokers, thinking that they had insurance that would cover them in
situations like this, and basically they were defrauded. So that was
really sad, yes.
00:38:05
Chung Ryu:
The other thing that happened was a lot of them wanted to rebuild, and
L.A. City Council held many hearings, and decided that they were not
going to allow certain businesses to reopen as they existed before the
riots, which meant that they would not be getting a liquor license
again, or allowed to sell liquor, because the African American
communities who were in the area decided that they would take that
window of opportunity to show how, you know, liquor stores were bad for
the community and all that, and it was very successful, pretty much, in
finding that those businesses if they sold liquor were kind of
nuisances, and so they couldn't reopen the way they existed before,
which meant they wouldn't be profitable for the store owners, and so a
lot of them could not rebuild, even if they had the money.
00:39:28
Chung Ryu:
And I remember I personally did not go to the city council meetings. I
had some limitations because I worked for the state. You know, I was a
government employee, and it's really hard to separate my private
activities, especially when they were happening during the daytime. So a
lot of other people went, and we would get reports of how frustrating,
how nobody was listening. In the city council we did not have a Korean
American. I don't think we even had an Asian American. So Korean
American business owners' situation was not well received, because there
was very vocal opposition to their interests, to the Korean business
owners' interests. You know, they would have busloads of people coming
from South L.A. or L.A. City from different communities, to talk about
how these liquor stores were really negatively impacting the
community.
00:40:32
Chung Ryu:
It was right after the riots and memory was still fresh, and people
realized that things needed to change, you know. So in a way, the Korean
American store owners became, I don't want to say scapegoats, but they
became the consequence, I guess, of efforts by another community to
improve themselves. So at that time I remember thinking it was so
unfair, you know, to these business owners, and I felt that they didn't
hear us or realize how hard it was for these Koreans to immigrate and
establish themselves and work so hard, that it's not something that rich
people, you know, it's just this tiny investment that they make. This is
their livelihood, and it's not something that they obtain easily, and
they lost and it was not their fault. So if you're not going to give
them the business back because of your own reasons, you need to help
them rebuild in another way.
00:41:43
Cline:
Right, compensate.
00:41:45
Chung Ryu:
And I think some organizations tried to help out, you know. I have heard
like KYCC [Koreatown Youth and Community Center], the youth community
center, and KAC [Korean American Coalition] working with some business
owners to see if they could open, reopen and be another type of
business, or make adjustments and things like that. But I think a lot of
people who owned those businesses were hurt by the process. You know,
their feelings--to say their feelings were hurt is just kind of a too
minor way to put it, but you know, they were so affected that they
refused to make the adjustment. Years later I actually had a chance to
talk to a former city councilperson, who was a city councilman at the
time, about what happened after the riots and all that, and he did tell
me that he did not realize the impact that it was going to have on the
Korean community, that maybe he didn't listen as much. But then, our
voices were few compared to the busloads of people that would come, you
know, because we weren't as organized, and we weren't as vocal, and
that's probably one of the reasons why.
00:43:08
Chung Ryu:
But then I also realized that, especially after becoming a judge and
serving in Compton Court or other areas where economically the
communities are depressed and all, then I learned more about the school
systems and the lack of resources in the community and all that, I
realized that the liquor stores were not helping the community, and if I
was an African American person at that time in this location, I probably
would have advocated that those liquor stores not reopen as liquor
stores, and have restrictions on how many liquor stores there can be in
my community, because, I mean, we have to accept the fact that liquor
stores attract a lot of crime in many different ways. So, it's a
sacrifice.
00:44:11
Cline:
Yes. But still the business owners should have been able to be
compensated in some way for that to happen.
00:44:16
Chung Ryu:
Right, somehow. And we are a country of justice and individual rights,
and we should be able to keep what we work hard to earn, so it's a
conflict, a balance.
00:44:33
Cline:
Can you say, or do you remember, who some of those few voices were who
were addressing the city council and being the voice of the Korean
community here?
00:44:44
Chung Ryu:
Well, Angela [E.] Oh was one of them, and then there was another Korean
American attorney named Bub-joo Lee, who also got his firm to file those
pro bono lawsuits on behalf--against the insurance companies. So those
were two primary people that I know were very active in speaking for the
business owners, and they're the ones who reported back to us about what
happened.
00:45:13
Cline:
Okay. I know that our time is limited. I would normally segue right into
a very big question, which we've sort of hit on before when you've
addressed this issue before, which is, how have the riots changed the
Korean American community? But I think I'll save that for next time,
since I don't think you can answer that in three minutes. I will ask
you, I notice that you do elect to use the term riot; some don't. Do you
have feelings about that, how it fits your definition of what this was,
in your opinion?
00:45:56
Chung Ryu:
I never thought of that. I mean, it's been referred to as the L.A.
riot.
00:46:04
Cline:
Some people say rebellion, some people say uprising, and there's a lot of
struggling to try to come up with a word--
00:46:12
Chung Ryu:
Ah, I see.
00:46:12
Cline:
--that doesn't sound too condemnatory or inflammatory, I think. But I've
yet to meet a single person that I've interviewed from the Korean
community who has preferred to use any word other than riot.
00:46:25
Chung Ryu:
You know, that's the word that's been used, and it kind us stuck as a
way, as a word that described that event. Maybe it's just a name that
was given, maybe not the true description, and I guess it kind of
depends on your political and community view, whether you would call it
a rebellion. I have actually never heard anyone call it a rebellion, but
I could see how somebody might call it a rebellion, or think that that's
the appropriate word to describe it. But me being from the Korean
American community, if I had a choice of those words, I would still
choose riot to describe it. And I also saw it. You know, the looting was
not done actually most by African Americans. I mean, of course, my
information is limited from what I saw on TV, but those people that I
saw running by my car with stuff in their arms, they were not African
American, so they were not the ones that were doing the looting that I
saw on that day, the day after the riots. So if it's a rebellion, I
don't know who was doing the rebelling and who was participating in the
rebelling, you know, because the community that should have rebelled is
the African American community.
00:47:59
Cline:
Right, right. Okay.
00:47:59
Chung Ryu:
My phone's ringing, so we should probably end.
00:48:01
Cline:
I think that's it. That's the perfect--that's the bell that signals the
end of this session. Thank you very much.
00:48:07
Chung Ryu:
Okay, thank you.
[End of interview]
00:00:00
Cline:
Today is September twenty-third, 2008. This is Alex Cline, once again
interviewing Tammy Chung Ryu in her chambers in Compton, and this is our
seventh session. More sessions than usual, because they have to be
shorter than usual. This is Judge Chung Ryu's lunch break. Thank you for
talking to us again today.
00:00:28
Chung Ryu:
My pleasure.
00:00:30
Cline:
We left off last time talking about the '92 riots. You ended by sort of
deciding that the word riot was, in fact, to you an accurate term to use
in describing what happened at that time, something that brought a lot
of attention to the Korean American community in L.A., which meant the
Korean American community in general as far as the United States goes. A
lot of people probably didn't really even think about the Korean
American community until the '92 riots, and the general sense,
understandably, is that the riots changed the Korean American community
in a lot of very profound ways. I wanted to start by asking first,
specifically in terms of the kind of leadership in the community and the
kinds of entities that existed to serve the community, what happened in
terms of how things may have changed, how things were approached in the
wake of the riots, which was clearly a wake-up call for a lot of
people?
00:01:49
Chung Ryu:
Right. I remember right after the riots there was a lot of dialoging
going on between different communities, and I was involved in some of
those symposiums, seminars. Those were people who were involved in
different communities, African American, Hispanic, Latino, Asian, just
to try to understand what happened and talk about preventing something
like that. So there was a lot of more communication among different
groups in the L.A. [Los Angeles] area, so I remember that happened. And
as I mentioned in our last conversation, the first generation realized
that they were just too insular, and they really needed to communicate
with the bigger community or other communities, not just try to be
successful by themselves or within the community, Korean American
community alone. So they started doing a lot more outreach towards the
1.5 or second generation, especially the bilingual Korean Americans,
realizing that there really needed to be a bridge.
00:03:11
Chung Ryu:
So I believe like the Korean American Federation, which has traditionally
been the first generation only, and only spoke Korean in all their
events, has started to recruit younger people, or invite younger people
to their events. And I think communities also, community organizations
started being much more out there in their activities, you know. They
invited more officials to come, the city councilmen, the mayor, you
know. They did more outreach. Also, that effort was actually responded
to in a positive way I think, because I think the politicians and other
people realized that we really needed to prevent this from
happening.
00:04:03
Chung Ryu:
And part of maybe the reason for the riots and the Korean community
becoming kind of like the victim of it, of the frustrations and
everything that's been piling up for a long time, that we can't have
that happen again, that our community is targeted. So there was a lot of
reaching out and across by, I think, a lot of communities, and I think
it was also a wake-up call for Korean Americans who were living in other
cities, thinking, you know, this could happen. So now you have a lot of
organizations popping up, you know, like KAC [Korean American Coalition]
went national, and I'm trying to remember whether it was around that
time that it happened. But now they had KAC chapters popping up in a lot
of other cities, and then they became national, so then they can respond
collectively as opposed to just KAC-LA. So those things were
happening.
00:05:09
Chung Ryu:
I'm also thinking about some organizations that were traditionally
serving the Korean American community only started now serving people of
other communities, becoming more of "the" community organization, as
opposed to Korean American, you know. And I know that you interviewed
Johng Ho [Song] from KYCC [Koreatown Youth and Community Center], which
I think is no longer KYCC. I think there's another acronym, another
letter that goes in there, and they serve everybody in Koreatown area,
you know, a lot of Hispanic. I know that a lot of their programs include
people who live in there, and you know, the majority of people who live
in Koreatown are Hispanics. So now they have a lot of programs targeted
to everybody in that community, as opposed to--geographically as opposed
to ethnic-wise, and I think that's part of reaching out and not being so
isolationist or insular in what we do, whom we serve, and who we talk
to. So I think those are the changes that all came about because of the
riots, you know.
00:06:20
Chung Ryu:
And then the lawyer association [Korean American Bar Association] that I
was involved with, we did a lot of dialoging with the help of other
ethnic bar associations, although we started that after the Soon Ja Doo
case, which was like a prequel to the riots. But afterwards, you know, a
lot of the things that different organizations tried to do is try to
take their organization to a next level of being more involved with the
bigger community surrounding them. For instance, like the Korean
American Bar Association decided we really need to have more judges on
the bench who are Korean Americans. We also need to get more involved
with the L.A. [Los Angeles] County Bar [Association], or the state bar
activities.
00:07:14
Chung Ryu:
We have a whole slew of young people who decided they're going to be
involved in politics, you know.
00:07:20
Cline:
Right. You walked into my next question. Thank you.
00:07:23
Chung Ryu:
Which is, you know, they became all these field representatives, and I've
talked to many of them who all said the riots were kind of like the key,
or that caused them to think, okay, this is really important to do. And
you know, now we have the mayor of L.A., who has deputy mayors, Korean
Americans, you know, a lot of people on the commissions who are Korean
Americans, so people started getting more involved in the
mainstream.
00:07:53
Cline:
Right. What about the people who were here all along, and perhaps weren't
paying attention to what was going on in city politics, or even maybe
even voting; what was your sense of their awareness or their involvement
after the riots?
00:08:12
Chung Ryu:
You know, right after the riots you had the Prop[osition] 187. I think it
happened like two or three years after that. But the voter registration
drive really took off after the riots. I think everybody realized you
really needed to vote, and that's what makes politicians listen to you,
is because you can say, "Well, we have so many votes in our community."
I think people didn't realize how important that is in a democratic
society, you know. So you're right. You had a whole bunch of senior
citizens being recruited, you know, studying to become citizens and they
can vote, or learning to vote, and then everybody's interested in all
the propositions all of a sudden, you know, so there's translations of
them into Korean. I mean, I saw a transformation in my family with my
mom and my in-laws. You know, they were interested generally in
politics, especially the major ones, presidential races and things like
that, but they really didn't care that much about propositions or local
politics until the riots happened, and after a whole bunch of
anti-immigrant propositions and other laws started coming up. Then I
think everybody realized that it's very important. If you're going to
live in the United States, then you should become citizens and you
should vote. So the voter registration drive since then has become a
really important thing for almost all community organizations.
00:09:58
Cline:
Right. And, of course, government here is very different from government
in South Korea in many ways. How are people educated about how things
work here, particularly once they become interested or concerned?
00:10:19
Chung Ryu:
I think the Korean newspapers and radio, and to a certain extent, TV,
make a big difference, not that I actually do that. I don't read the
Korean paper, not all the time, but I know that it influences people,
because, for instance, my mom listens to news in Korean all the time,
you know, and sometimes she knows more about what's happening than I do,
and I think that everybody has become really interested in what's going
on. Knowledge has become all of a sudden a key. You know, maybe if we
know more we can prevent something like the riots from happening. So
yes, and then I think Korean media all of a sudden is going to give out
much more information about the politics or, you know, different
measures, propositions that are going on. They're doing a lot more, a
lot more educational pieces. You know, you have more radio shows where
attorneys or community leaders, they're asked to come and give
information about certain legislation or something that's pending. You
know, like redistricting was such a big issue in Koreatown at one point,
and all those things became an important news item for people. And I
think that's how first generation got their information.
00:11:55
Cline:
Sometimes you hear people say that they had the impression that sometimes
the first generation knew more or was more interested in what was going
on in Korea than where they lived. What is your sense of that? Do you
think that was possible, or not?
00:12:13
Chung Ryu:
Yes, I think so. You know, my knowledge is limited, but the impression
I've gotten, for instance, like Korean Federation, you know, where
people really, you know, they challenge each other. It's a huge election
thing. People spend a lot of money to get elected as president, and why?
Because they're not really involved in American politics. But it seems
that they're more interested and involved in what's going on in South
Korea. They're much more interested in the politics over there. They
invite politicians from South Korea, you know. They want to meet the
politicians from South Korea, not necessarily politicians from here. So
that's been kind of like their focus for a long time, and I'm sure to a
certain extent it is. It's kind of like, I don't know, to me it's
almost, maybe it's just like nostalgia. You know, it's your home
country, and they can relate to what's going on there. But they don't
understand and they can't relate to what's going on here, so they don't
feel like they're really part of what's going on here.
00:13:33
Chung Ryu:
But to me, you know, my mom once in a while would ask me, "Did you know
that they're having an election in Korea, and this candidate is this?"
And I said, "No." And I said, "I'm sorry, Mom, but I'm really not that
concerned about the political atmosphere in South Korea, or who's going
to become president, except maybe just kind of know where they're coming
from in terms of relationship with the United States, you know, that
type of thing." But no, it doesn't really impact me. It's never really
going to impact me. And I tell my mom, I said, "I don't know why you're
so interested." You know, their political system doesn't--I don't know,
they form new parties all the time and then split up and form other
parties. I mean, it's not like--so I don't know what each party really
stands for, so I really don't understand what's going on there. It
doesn't really have to do with your ideals or policy or anything like
that. It's maybe who you like and who you don't like at the time.
00:14:48
Cline:
Yes. What about rebuilding after the riots, after your work that you
described with a lot of the victims of the riots, the business owners in
the community; what happened to them?
00:15:04
Chung Ryu:
You know, I am sorry to say I really don't know what really happened
after the riots in Koreatown, because, you know, my job was with the
[California State] Attorney General's Office, and if I was actually in
the county or the city attorney's office, I think I might have known
more. But, you know, as somebody who worked near there, or goes there
for food and shopping and other events, it took a while for us to
rebuild. You know, certain buildings were closed for a long time. I
think a lot of people just moved out, also, out of the area to the
suburbs, and some people couldn't rebuild. I know that they moved out to
other areas, and I don't know, you know, what they're doing. But
Koreatown now is booming again, you know, in different ways.
00:16:12
Cline:
Right. How did you start to see Koreatown change once it started to be
rebuilt, or did it change?
00:16:21
Chung Ryu:
I think it changed to a certain degree. You still have the small
businesses, but I see more big businesses coming in, you know, a lot
more buildings being put up, becoming much more urban, and Koreatown has
actually changed. If you look at Koreatown now, I think--and there may
be some studies that have been done, but Koreatown is not really filled
with Koreans anymore. It's very diverse there. I think the majority of
the people are, you know, Hispanic, and you see now more Hispanic signs
going up near--especially south of Koreatown, peripheral areas. So I
think what happened with the riots is that it caused a lot of people to
rethink about doing business in that area, or living there, and I do
think that a lot of people moved out of that area. So to me now when I
meet someone and they say they live in the Koreatown area, it sounds
really strange, because I think, I didn't know there were that many
Koreans still living there, you know.
00:17:50
Cline:
Yes. It's been a place for Korean business, and less for Korean
residents. How do you see the growing, booming Korean business
developments there affecting the non-Korean residents there?
00:18:13
Chung Ryu:
Well, you know, I'm not an economist, but I'm thinking, you know, when
you have small communities, sometimes it's the small businesses that
kind of make up a community, more of an identity. If you have big
buildings and big businesses going in, you kind of lose the sense of the
ethnicity or the ethnic-community makeup, because then it kind of
becomes like downtown, you know. And you have non-Korean businesses,
builders going in there building, as well as, you know, of course there
are some Koreans who are involved in that. It's much more of like an
office--now you get a lot of condominiums going up there, so I kind of
feel like it's trying to become more like a downtown atmosphere, rather
than something that is really unique. And I think you have more Koreans
building out into the suburbs, and people don't really need to go to
Koreatown like they used to, to eat the food or shop the Korean
groceries and all that. You know, still you have your Korean dentists
and other people that people drive for miles to go to, but I think that
now it's not as common as before.
00:19:51
Cline:
Where specifically do you see Koreans going in not only living, but
setting up businesses outside of Koreatown?
00:20:00
Chung Ryu:
Well, I live in the South Bay, and we did not have a major Korean
supermarket for a long time, and then we have a huge one. And then now
they just built another huge one only like within five miles from the
other one, which is great for consumers, because it's more competitive
and it gives choices. You know, people who live as north as Manhattan
Beach or Inglewood, they don't have to go to Koreatown anymore. They can
just go to Torrance, you know, to do the shopping. And I see new plazas
going up, those little mini-strip malls, and they're filled with Korean
banks, Korean bakeries, and the hairdressers and all that, little tiny
restaurants, cafes, so I see Korean business moving into the South Bay
area, especially Torrance, which is a big city, so people don't have to
go to Koreatown for the services and goods like they used to. And I'm
sure it's probably the same out in the [San Fernando] Valley.
00:21:13
Cline:
Anywhere else that you know about?
00:21:21
Chung Ryu:
That's where I usually--those are the two places. I don't know, maybe
towards more of Pasadena and La Canada area there might be. I know of
restaurants going in there, but I don't know about plazas filled with
Korean businesses.
00:21:38
Cline:
Right. We talked before about how Koreans tend to follow what's perceived
as the better school systems. Do you think that's part of what's
happening as people are leaving the more central Koreatown area?
00:21:50
Chung Ryu:
I'm sure that's part of it. You know, as soon as you make enough money to
go to the suburbs, I think that you do that because your kids can get a
better education. It's kind of like Irvine, you know, Irvine. You have
so many Koreans now living in Irvine. I know so many people who live in
that area. You know, it's clean, the schools are new, and everybody's
trying to make it a big deal. It's near UC [University of California]
Irvine. That's a great benefit for everybody, so yes, Irvine is another
place. Another place actually is Cerritos. That whole area is, you know,
there are so many Korean businesses, and there are routinely Korean
events, like at the Cerritos performance center [Cerritos Center for the
Performing Arts], you have a lot of Korean performers going there to
perform, so that's another big, I think, Korean American community type
of place.
00:22:51
Cline:
And Irvine has a Korean American in the city government as well, which is
unusual.
00:22:56
Chung Ryu:
Right. Yes, he's been there a while now.
00:23:02
Cline:
So I know this is a speculative question, but where do you see Koreatown
going then? You mentioned that there are more big buildings, big
office-type businesses. I think it's always been very unclear sort of
what the parameters of Koreatown are. I don't know if you have a sense
of those parameters changing, getting bigger or smaller, or blurrier or
clearer, but in terms of what's going on there now, where do you see
Koreatown headed?
00:23:40
Chung Ryu:
I think it will probably--people have commented for a long time that
there's no clear boundary, you know. I think part of it was because
there were so many businesses that were expanding outward. But I see now
there's more, for instance, Spanish signs going up, especially in the
south part, you know, like Washington [Boulevard], Pico [Boulevard], and
then you have the Hoover Street, Alvarado [Street]. Union [Avenue] is
becoming--they're going more west and north, you know, which is going
towards Koreatown area. And even, you know, like when you go down
Vermont [Avenue] to the freeway, to the 10 Freeway, you see a lot more
Spanish signs than before.
00:24:26
Chung Ryu:
I think it will always exist, and there will be people who will make sure
that it's going to grow more as a cultural center, you know. There's a
big effort to try to get the Korean American Museum grow and be
established as perhaps the Japanese American National Museum. There's
been an effort like that for years to try to do that, and you know,
there will be always tourists, people who like Korean food, they'll
always be taken over there. But now you have Korean restaurants that are
more on the high end, you know, moving out to Beverly Hills, because
they want to cater to non-Korean customers, clientele, so you have that
kind of movement. You have some major restaurants closed down, and
buildings going up, like Woo Lae Oak is one of them. That was like a
nice Korean restaurant where you can take non-Korean business friends
over there, because the ambience was nice, it was clean, the food was
nicely presented. It's not authentic, really authentic, but it was
really good, you know, but you had to pay a lot. But those are the kind
of places that you could take non-Korean people, so those kind of places
I see are closing down and maybe choosing to go more west towards
Beverly Hills, or maybe I was going to say next to Hancock Park,
Larchmont area. But I think Koreatown will always exist, and I do think
that it's going to be smaller, more concentrated than before.
00:26:25
Cline:
One perception of Koreatown, particularly in its big growth period
leading up to the time of the '92 riots was that particularly with the
signage and a lot of the things being what they were, that it was really
catering pretty much exclusively to its own community, and not inviting
anyone else in particularly. How do you see that, and do you see that
changing?
00:26:55
Chung Ryu:
I think that's probably one of the things that people realized, that may
make us seem very antisocial in a certain way, just serving ourselves.
And then you go to restaurants and like nobody speaks English, so you
can't order food unless you know the food, you know? But on the other
hand, I think like Korean food, Korean culture is becoming more well
known, so when I do go to Koreatown I see more non-Koreans enjoying
Korean food. I see a lot more 1.5/second generations bringing their
friends, not to impress them with the fancy setting, but to impress them
with the good food. I don't know if the signs were changed more, too.
You know, maybe they had an English version of a Korean business. But
you know, I did wonder. I read Korean, but I was thinking, if I had to
call 411, try to get a restaurant, like a phone number to make
reservations, I go, you know, I only know the Korean name, but they may
be not listed as that name in the phonebook. So if I call Information,
they may not know, and then how do you spell that, you know, the Korean
word? So that's always been kind of a big question in my mind. And you
find out sometimes they have a different listing in the phonebook. But
I'm certain that a lot more signs became more English after the
riots.
00:28:51
Cline:
And there's no standardized Romanization of Korean at this point anyway,
so pick one. Koreatown also doesn't have any kind of like a signature
building or area that's sort of a center, or that sort of attracts
people, maybe tourists or anything like that, and I think some are not
bothered by this at all, and some people think maybe there should be. Do
you have any feelings about that?
00:29:26
Chung Ryu:
I do know that some people feel really strongly we should have something
like that, and it's been proposed before, and I think it's because, like
they see Little Tokyo, which is very small. But you have the big museum
now, and then you have Little Tokyo, the village, and you have the New
Otani Hotel and that big Yaohan [now Mitsuwa] Center, so you kind of
know the parameters, and you have a few big places you can go, right?
You don't have that in Koreatown, and I'll bet you there are some
people, some community leaders who think we should have that, just like
the Japanese-Americans do. You know, we have this big sense of
competition with the Japanese-Americans. So I see that.
00:30:24
Chung Ryu:
But you know, I'm sure you've heard, especially from the first
generation, Koreans are very independent, and we don't work very well in
a group, because we have very strong sense of self and individualism,
and we believe that we should succeed as individuals, and not
necessarily as a group. It's cultural, and I don't know why. Maybe
because we've been poor, and everybody had to basically, it's every man
for himself type of thing. So we don't work very well together. We don't
agree very well. We don't compromise very well. I think a lot of Koreans
would say that about themselves as a group, and that's probably one of
the reasons why; they could never really agree, you know, what should be
the center or heart of Koreatown, what buildings should go in there? So
a group of individuals may try to create like a certain group of
buildings or a plaza or whatever that they think should be the hub of
Koreatown, but because it wasn't bought on by everybody, you know, the
building or area exists by itself. Yes, I don't know. It could be a
corner of Vermont and Wilshire [Boulevard]. Some people will say it's in
mid-Wilshire, maybe Kingsley [Drive] and Wilshire, where you have a lot
of Korean office buildings have been there, the oldest, you know, the
twin buildings, 3550 and 3580 Wilshire. That's been around a long time,
and those were all the original professionals' offices were located.
00:32:11
Chung Ryu:
But then, you know, now you have the Equitable Building more west, and
that huge plaza, and I know that there have been some ideas thrown out
about, you know, by a group of people who bought that whole area and
buildings, that they're going to convert into some sort of like a
cultural center, where they're going to have outdoor concerts and all
that. But I don't know if that's really gone very far. But I've heard
ideas from different individuals in groups about really wanting to do
that, you know, create an area where people can come, walk around, enjoy
Korean culture and a lot of different shops or whatever that's around
there.
00:32:52
Chung Ryu:
There was an effort, though, for all the Korean American communities to
kind of be located in one building, and some of them actually moved and
try to be in one building or near each other, so that you could say the
community centers were all together.
00:33:08
Cline:
Yes. Well, a lot of them are in that one building [KOA Building at 3727
Sixth Street] over there, including the Korean American Museum. One of
the things that seems to be happening in Koreatown now, you mentioned
these condos and things going in. Apparently a recent phenomenon is
Koreans, as they're getting older and they're experiencing the
empty-nest syndrome, some are being lured back into Koreatown, where the
convenience and the culture is right downstairs so to speak. How do you
think this will change Koreatown, or do you think perhaps it won't? Or
will it maybe even attract non-Koreans to move in larger numbers to
Koreatown, assuming they can afford these condos, of course?
00:33:56
Chung Ryu:
I know. I was going to say, who can afford those condos? Because, you
know, I was thinking that they were building them and marketing them
more towards younger people, the young professionals, you know, just
like downtown was trying to attract young professionals who didn't want
the commute. They're single, or they don't have children, and so they
don't need to really live in the suburbs type of thing. So I thought
they were doing a lot more marketing towards the younger people, just
like downtown lofts and you know. But from all those young people that I
know that have gone to see these condos, they just said they're just too
small or too expensive. But I do know of some older people that have
moved from the suburbs to near Koreatown, you know, like the Hancock
Park area or somewhere a little bit closer, but on edge of Koreatown,
you know, like Crenshaw and Wilshire, that type. So people live there,
so it's convenient and they can go into Koreatown, but they don't have
to actually live in Koreatown. I mean, it is really crowded there.
There's traffic jams, and it's not always safe either. You know, being
in the court system I hear things, and it's not necessarily safe in
Koreatown either.
00:35:21
Cline:
Well, there's also a lot of sort of night-spot attractions that have
developed in Koreatown.
00:35:28
Chung Ryu:
Oh yes.
00:35:30
Cline:
What about that? What's your sense of that?
00:35:33
Chung Ryu:
Actually, I think it's great. I think it's great, first of all because
L.A. doesn't really have that kind of nightlife, compared to other
cities like New York or Chicago, right. So I think it's great that young
people have that. And then, you know, I'm proud to say like Nicholas
Cage loves to go to one of those Koreatown clubs, so you see some famous
people coming in and enjoying themselves, and that's really great, too.
But you know, you pay a price for that, too. There's increased traffic,
foot traffic, and conflicts, and rising crime and things like that when
people come to those kinds of places. I mean, you hear about all the
violence now, you know, people getting stabbed or shot at in parking
lots, fighting, things like that, in Koreatown clubs, right?
00:36:31
Cline:
Right. It used to be that frequently immigrants who had come from Korea,
usually not well-to-do, would settle in Koreatown because the culture
was there and it was more affordable. They'd get a foothold, maybe start
to make some money, and then move out to where there were better schools
and to the suburbs somewhere. I don't know if you see so much of this
because you've said, for example, that you are part of an
English-speaking congregation at your church, but what is your sense of
where Korean immigrants are settling when they first come here now?
00:37:08
Chung Ryu:
I don't think they're necessarily settling in Koreatown. I don't think
so. I think now they have enough friends and family members who are
here, and know--especially after the riots, you know. It affected a lot
of people, maybe nationwide. You said now there was focus on Korean
Americans, but it affected Koreans in Korea, you know, the news. I mean,
I think the riots got played a lot over there, too, so you do have a lot
of Koreans in South Korea, especially Seoul, the capital, where they
heard about the riots, and not everybody thinks it's great to live in
the United States anymore, you know, so it's not the best place to
immigrate to now. So I think people don't want to live where the riots
happened, you know, which is Koreatown and the area around there. So I
think they try to go now to settle in the suburbs, and I think people
who are now moving, since Korea is doing much better, are not the people
who are really economically, you know, disadvantaged. I think these are
people who can afford to come here, and they'll go to where there's good
schools and good neighborhoods.
00:38:27
Cline:
Yes. That was my next question. And if you have one, what was your sense
of the reaction in South Korea to the '92 riots and what happened to the
community here? How did it play over there?
00:38:45
Chung Ryu:
I know that they knew a lot about it. I mean, we got calls from our
relatives, wondering how we were doing. But I don't think people really
talk about it with each other. I don't ever remember sitting and
actually talking to, aside from my close friends or family, you know,
people coming over. I do meet people who come from South Korea,
especially people in their official capacity, you know, politicians or
prosecutors or judges from South Korea, and they go, "Oh, you know, the
riots happened. How are you doing?" You know, it's kind of--and you go,
"Oh, it was hard, but we got over it. You know, it's okay." It's kind of
like that type of thing. You don't really discuss the detail or how it
really impacted you. You know, the times that I've talked about it
actually were--I talked about it a lot in context of why I decided to
become a judge, and how we need more people in public service. I
advocate public service a lot to young people, and it stems from what I
went through during the riots.
00:39:55
Cline:
Okay. Well, since I'd been planning to ask the question then, if you
didn't just answer it, why did you become a judge?
00:40:03
Chung Ryu:
The riots was the biggest factor. You know, being a lawyer, especially
being in a government office, and kind of knowing what's going on,
but--and it's harder. When you know that you can be one of those people
that can influence, for instance, a city councilmember's vote, or you
know that there's a way to get information to them to get their votes,
but you don't know exactly how to do it because you're not in there. But
you know. It's not like you don't know that process or--you kind of know
what politics is, you just haven't been a player. So it was really
frustrating to a lot of us who grew up in the United States, who were
educated here, I mean, that we could be in a position of influence, but
we just chose not to, because we're so busy doing things for ourselves.
So a lot of us, that's why, you know, said, we need to be in public
service.
00:41:08
Chung Ryu:
So then you had the big influx of young people going into public service,
working for politicians and all that. And for people like me, a
government attorney, you know, another way to empower ourselves is to
become judges, and that's one of the reasons why I decided. I did not
initially think that I would be, because I was still a young lawyer, and
I didn't think I was ready or qualified then, so it took me ten years
after the riots to actually apply. But my focus and the group that I was
involved in, our focus was to identify people and really encourage and
push them, and support them to become judges. So that's one of the ways
we responded to the riots.
00:41:56
Cline:
And what do you see in terms of numbers of people making a similar sort
of choice?
00:42:04
Chung Ryu:
I became judge in 2002, and in L.A. County I was the second one, and then
after that we've had at least three more people, one of them another
woman, and now we have two in Northern California, so you know, within
six years we've achieved that, so it's actually--when before that we had
just one every ten, fifteen years, you know. So that's a big step. I
think that--I haven't really sat down and had conversations with a lot
of them, but what I've learned after becoming a judge is, it's not just
to be in that position. It's to influence other people who are in that
position, because now you are their colleague, and now you're equal to
them, and now you can have lunch with them. You know, you sit around
talking, and you educate them, mostly indirectly by talking about
yourself or your community, your family. You're in a way educating them
about Korean Americans, and so few judges know. I mean, I've had
conversations where I could tell they really wanted to find out more
about Korean Americans, but they really had nobody to ask. So I had
judges ask me a few questions about a very specific Korean
American-related question, and I could tell they were very relieved that
they finally had some--because as judges, we can't really go and ask
people outside, you know. We really are not supposed to get influenced
by information that's not presented to us in a certain way.
00:43:43
Chung Ryu:
But socially--and we don't really socialize that much with people
outside. So I've had, you know, really enlightening conversations,
because it made me realize, gosh, we really need these people who are
sitting on the bench and ruling on cases really want to understand the
culture of the Korean Americans, because Korean Americans are actually a
significant part of our court system. A lot of defendants, victims, you
know, are Korean Americans.
00:44:22
Cline:
Right. You mentioned this sort of individualistic kind of vigor that the
Koreans seem to have, and what seems to be a result of that, and this is
something that you were even describing as a constant kind of
splintering and a lack of agreement or unity, and you've seen this, I
think people have seen this a lot in the many churches that exist now as
well in the Korean community, of which there are countless, I think.
Where do you see the role of the church, which has for so long been a
social and cultural center and almost a sanctuary for the Korean
immigrants as the generations progress, and as either the splintering
continues, or perhaps maybe some unity takes hold; how do you see that
role being defined now, and perhaps changed in the future?
00:45:26
Chung Ryu:
You mean with the churches?
00:45:27
Cline:
Yes.
00:45:32
Chung Ryu:
That's a big question. I'm sure there are people who study this and all
that, and I have a very limited, personal knowledge and experience. But
let me tell you what I think. I think initially and to a certain extent
now, churches provide the sanctuary and a way to slowly assimilate to
American culture for the new immigrants. You know, they can go there and
speak to people in Korean. They can ask questions about how to fill out
forms or whatever. The minister can help them get connected to that,
like churches provide free, like, we have health days where we provide
free immunization shots, you know, and seniors can get transportation,
the people with disabilities can do all that, so it provides that
service.
00:46:31
Chung Ryu:
But for English-speaking Korean American Christians who go to church,
church is a big identity thing. Is church just for Korean Americans? You
know, do we want to make church ours only? And it's not just cultural or
social, but it has also to do with being Christian. You know, what does
that mean? And I think even for people in my generation, which is the
1.5, maybe even almost second generation, you know, Korean American
English services are important to us because there's still connection
among Korean Americans. We share life experience, if not just the color
of our skin or eyes or hair. There's other things we share, so it's good
to be around people like that, you know. It's a very supportive
atmosphere, and also for our children. A lot of us live in communities
where there are no other Korean Americans in our town, or very few, you
know. Or it may be that there are the recent immigrants who come to our
town, but our kids will not be able to relate to them, because our kids,
you know, they grew up eating American baby food and all that.
00:47:55
Cline:
Yes, American.
00:47:55
Chung Ryu:
Right. So it provides a place where our kids can become secure about
their identity. We talk about this a lot, you know. I have a friend who
lives in Calabasas. Her daughter has no Koreans in her class. Church is
the only place where she looks the same as everybody else, so that's
another thing that church provides. But church also, you know, the
Korean American churches are becoming--we have to become more
international, or more multiethnic, and that's a discussion that is
evolving, because first you have Korean Americans who are marrying
non-Koreans, and then they have kids who are half Koreans. And it's not
just they're marrying Caucasians or Hispanics or blacks, it's because
they're marrying other Asians, too.
00:48:50
Chung Ryu:
And you have people in the neighborhood of the church. You know, church
is traditionally a local place, so then you have people in the
neighborhood who come to church, and they may not be Korean Americans.
Then the church's identity changes a little bit, and the type of things
we do at church changes. So then what is our focus? What's our vision
statement? You know, what's our mission statement? Those kinds of
questions arise.
00:49:18
Chung Ryu:
But what church has not been able to do really for Korean Americans that
church has been able to do, let's say, for the African Americans, is to
be the spokesperson for the community. You know, you have leaders, like
in First AME [African Methodist Episcopal] Church. You have ministers
like Reverend Jesse Jackson, who can sometimes speak for their community
and be very vocal about issues. But you don't have people like that in
the Korean American community, even though Korean Americans probably
form like the majority of certain religions. You know, if you think
about it, like I'm a United Methodist, and there's constantly talk about
churches closing down because membership is dwindling, and congregations
are basically really shrinking, except in Korean American churches,
where you're still able to maintain numbers, or even grow. So, you know,
we're a big contingent in conferences and all that. But our focus is not
politics or community representation, our focus is something else, and I
don't know if we'll ever become like the African American churches and
play the same role. Maybe our history is different here in the United
States. That's why. But I don't see our church becoming, churches and
church leaders becoming that.
00:50:47
Cline:
Right. Well, obviously its primary role is as a religious institution.
How much interest do you see that being maintained in the younger
generations who've grown up here?
00:50:59
Chung Ryu:
We're losing younger people though. So I don't know really how we
maintain the numbers. It must be the new immigrants. But there's a lot
of talk about like when your kids go to college, you lose them for a few
years, and then you get them back. Once they settle and have kids,
that's when they come back to church, so that's always been a challenge
for the Korean American churches that I knew of. And they're still
dealing with generational issues, the cultural issues, the
first-generation versus second-generation churches, so you know, it's a
sign that we're still new and young as a community.
00:51:40
Cline:
Right. And that involves languages issues, obviously, as well.
00:51:43
Chung Ryu:
Right.
00:51:46
Cline:
Anyway, we're out of time.
00:51:48
Chung Ryu:
Oh, gee, time goes by fast.
00:51:52
Cline:
We're going to, I think, finish up next time with some kind of larger
identity-oriented questions, and whatever else seems good to talk about.
Okay?
00:52:04
Chung Ryu:
All right.
00:52:04
Cline:
Thank you.
[End of interview]
00:00:00
Cline:
Today is October eighth, 2008. This is Alex Cline interviewing Judge
Tammy Chung Ryu in her chambers at the Compton County Courthouse. This
is our eighth and most likely last session. Good afternoon once
again.
00:00:21
Chung Ryu:
Good afternoon.
00:00:23
Cline:
It's been a couple of weeks since we last had an interview session, and
as usual I had a couple of follow-up questions. We pretty much left off
last time dealing with some general questions relating to the Korean
community in Los Angeles. We talked a bit about the role of the church
in the community. We talked about sort of what some of the challenges
were, and where you saw that heading as the generations progress, and
one of the things that I wanted to ask you about, because it's actually
come up a few times, you've brought it up a few times, was where you see
the climate currently, but also as it's affected the community in the
past, of what appears to be an age that is, in terms of legislation and
point of view among many Americans, pretty hostile to the immigrant.
We've had a lot of concern, especially in the last few years, about what
to do about immigration to the United States, a lot of emotion sort of
directed at this issue, and clearly this is an issue that has to have a
direct impact on the Korean-immigrant community in Los Angeles and
elsewhere in the country. We've had propositions like Prop[osition] 187
pass in California, and what I'm curious to know, particularly since
you're coming at it from the legal side of things, is what do you think
this means for the Korean-immigrant population, and any immigrant
population as we look at the sort of climate in regard to this issue
right now.
00:02:21
Chung Ryu:
I guess on the one hand we can kind of be thankful that the crux of
anti-immigrant propositions or discussions are targeting more to Latinos
or Hispanics, not really to Asian, I guess, because I guess the general
population probably views--I mean, they don't view Asian Americans as
being potentially undocumented or illegal. They don't see, let's say, a
Korean person who speaks Korean, and say, "Oh, that person is illegal."
They actually don't, where I have actually heard people say, "That
Spanish-speaking person is probably illegal, because they can't speak
English." So that racism or discrimination has not found Korean as the
target.
00:03:19
Chung Ryu:
But I also have heard that there are undocumented or illegal Koreans in
L.A., and I'm sure in other parts of the country. Maybe they don't
traditionally cross the border, or swim across the river, you know. They
may come in legitimately with certain visas, but they usually overstay,
and that's what I hear about. And I do hear about people who are
scrambling to make themselves get legal status, you know, by finding a
job or a sponsor or something like that. So that's good.
00:04:02
Chung Ryu:
But I think what has happened with all those propositions, I think it has
gotten Koreans worried. You know, you could always become a target. It
probably will only take one incident and the focus may be on Koreans,
and we'll be targeted. So now you have, especially after the [1992 Los
Angeles] riots, a lot of Koreans who had not really done anything
affirmative to become permanent residents or legal or citizens, now
doing that, you know. You see that in senior-citizen groups, and people
also now, I think with all the community education, understand the power
of a vote. You get politicians who listen to you if you can say, you
know, Korean Americans compose so many percentage of the votes in L.A.
County, or something like that. I think people now, even I talk to my
mom, who's a senior citizen, and the people that she goes to church
with, who are senior citizens, and they are now aware of the need to
become a citizen that votes. So they're all registering to vote if they
can, and they're actually voting, you know. So I think that's a change
that has happened.
00:05:24
Chung Ryu:
I also think that Koreans are building a coalition with other Asian
Americans, and that's kind of in a way to be better prepared to fend off
attacks on immigrants. You know, there are attacks on immigrants not
just because of their legal status, but a lot of other ways, too.
Language, English-language-only initiatives is an example. Maybe to a
certain extent the anti-affirmative action, Prop[osition] 209 in public
universities, that's kind of another example. So I think that Korean
Americans have realized that they need to actually build a coalition and
become part of a larger group, and work with others, which is kind of
new, I think, for the Korean American community that's been focused on
self-sufficiency and becoming independent, and not reliant on others.
You know, Koreans jokingly say about themselves they're not good at
working with other people either. But I think Korean Americans are
finding that that's really valuable, that they become part of a
coalition.
00:06:40
Chung Ryu:
So now you have Korean American organizations that are part of a
coalition, multicultural, other Asian American, and then you also have
Korean American organizations that are becoming nationwide. You see that
with KAC [Korean American Coalition], you see that with other
organizations, different types of professional organizations. They're
trying to network and become more nationally connected with each other,
so those are actually some of the things that I see as a result of
people realizing that there are anti-immigrant feelings out there.
00:07:18
Cline:
Plus I think it would seem to me that--and you can comment on this,
because I think things have been changing as it seems that the more
recent immigrant population is a little more affluent, but so many of
the earlier Korean immigrants came with little or no money, and had to
take jobs that were frequently beneath their professional or aptitude
level. This was oftentimes a language issue, of course, but here they
are working in the service industries, or working as janitors, or doing
whatever they can to make money, and they're essentially working side by
side with a lot of these at least allegedly undocumented workers, and I
would imagine having the exact same issues have an impact on them as a
result. I know there have been some organizations that have sprung up in
Los Angeles to deal specifically with these sorts of issues. So then
what I'm wondering is, specifically referring to Koreans, how much of
this sort of situation do you think is still relevant, or do you see
that changing as the more recent immigrants coming in maybe aren't so
without funds?
00:08:40
Chung Ryu:
That probably has made a difference. You know, Korea, South Korea, that's
what I'm talking about, because I don't really know about North Korea,
but South Korea was a Third World country, but it really no longer is.
You know, it is considered one of the more affluent countries. It hosted
the Olympics in the eighties. And so you're right, the type of
immigrant, the people who are coming--so there is also talk in South
Korea, and I've heard this, it's all hearsay, but they go, "Why should
we go to the United States? I heard people work really hard there, and
it's harder to live there than in South Korea." So I don't know if there
are less Koreans coming over to the United States from South Korea, so
that may also have an impact, but because the economy in South Korea has
improved significantly, you probably do have Koreans who are coming over
who are not going to go directly into the service industry. You probably
have people who are well educated, who can speak the language, who maybe
have children who they sent over here to go get education, so you have a
different group of people, and so they come in ready to buy a business,
as opposed to working for a business, right?
00:10:18
Chung Ryu:
But there's still a close connection if you think about it, because a lot
of small businesses, which is what a lot of Koreans tend to own in the
beginning, they employ a lot of immigrants, you know. I mean, it's
commonplace to go to a Korean market or restaurant and have Hispanic
employees speak Korean, and they communicate with you in Korean, you
know. So it is changing. There's still interaction I guess at a
different level or in different ways, but that still shows one that
there's a lot of interaction, there has to be still a lot of working
together among the immigrants.
00:11:10
Cline:
Right. I guess what I was wondering is, considering this scenario, since
some of these immigrants who have now been here for a while may have
started in these seemingly, you know, what we think of as menial sorts
of jobs, in order to get a foothold here and start working their way up
through the business world and the community here, that there's a
certain level of not just concern but sympathy toward concerns that are
specifically related to the immigrant, the recent immigrant, the
immigrant who comes here in search of a better life, in search of a way
to support their family in the way that some of these Korean immigrants
did originally, perhaps for economic reasons, perhaps to get away from a
regime that they didn't approve of or didn't feel comfortable with. How
do you see that level of concern and/or sympathy among Korean immigrants
who have now perhaps kind of done better for themselves?
00:12:18
Chung Ryu:
You mean towards other Koreans who are coming over?
00:12:22
Cline:
Yes, or any immigrants, particularly in a climate that seems frequently
so anti-immigrant over the last few years. Do you see them doing
anything sort of to help recent immigrants, or demonstrate any concern
or interest?
00:12:43
Chung Ryu:
Well, I am certain that Korean businesses, especially small ones, let's
say restaurants or markets, you know, they employ other Koreans.
Obviously, the clientele that's Korean-speaking predominantly, so it
benefits them. I do see that a lot. You know, Korean businesses probably
provide the bulk of the employment for recent immigrants that come over,
and because I'm a professional working in mainstream society, you know,
I don't really know, because I don't work in the Korean community,
what's going on there. But I often wondered about the impact of all the
anti-immigrant laws, and there are a lot of discussions, you know, about
should a local police agency require their officers to check for
immigrant status, you know, when they arrest or interview people, or the
requirement that employers make good-faith effort to determine the legal
status of their employees in this country. All those things must have an
impact on the Korean community and the businesses there, and I have been
curious about what's being discussed. I'm sure it's not being discussed
in the open, but you know, I wonder about that. I wonder about what the
business owners are actually thinking or saying, because to be honest, I
suspect that they might know the law, but they may not be following
it.
00:14:47
Chung Ryu:
And I have heard of instances where, you know, people don't report
crimes, because they may not be documented, and they may be asked that.
There's still--even though Korea has become much less a
government-dominated type of a country, there's still probably some
lingering fears of authority or police, you know, or prosecution,
prosecutor's office and all the power that they have in the home
country, and I don't know how much communication they have regarding
what's going on with authorities. But I don't really know what's going
on there, because I don't do business there. But I often wondered about,
what are people doing to be in compliance, you know. And so whenever I
hear about raids in businesses, I always look to see if it's a Korean
business that's getting raided for employing undocumented aliens.
00:15:49
Cline:
Do you have personal feelings that you can articulate just about the way
the immigration situation is being handled currently? And we, for
example, have a wall being built between the United States and Mexico
right now.
00:16:07
Chung Ryu:
You know, I have never worked it through in my mind how I would really
ultimately stand, where. But you know about that wall. I understand that
it's a reaction or a response to frustration of people perceiving that
the government is not enforcing the immigration laws, but I think, you
know, you build the walls and you put the chain-link fences, you put the
barbed wires, you know, you increase the border patrol. They're all
legitimate activities of a government, I understand that, because
they're seeing that as a way to enforce the laws. But I question the
effectiveness of it, and I also am very saddened by the consequences,
because when you are located right next to or near impoverished
countries, where people don't have opportunities, you're going to have
people come over, legally or illegally. They are going to come over, and
it's just our fortune or misfortune of where the United States is
located. You know, you can't actually build a wall to exclude everybody.
You really can't. You can't do that. You can't have a million border
patrol. There'll still be people trying to come over, because they're
coming over knowing all the risks. You know, you hear about people dying
in the desert, drowning in the river, being packed in a van and being
left and dying, suffocating. I mean, it's just tragic, you know. But
they come over because they're desperate.
00:18:04
Chung Ryu:
So then I question, you know, there must be better ways for us as the
United States to spend the money that we have to build the walls, to
hire more border patrol, to somehow, you know, help Mexico become more
economically stable. And I'm sure that people have discussed it,
government officials or whoever, but I question how hard they've worked
on that. And I see, you know, people working hard. I can't tell whether
they're documented or undocumented when I see someone here, you know,
but generally speaking I think there are studies that undocumented
aliens take less advantage of welfare. Everybody thinks they drain the
welfare, and that's not true. Everybody thinks they drain our Medicare,
our healthcare system, and that's not true. The studies have shown that,
you know, that they're more law abiding than an ordinary citizen of the
United States.
00:19:16
Chung Ryu:
There was a recent article about how undocumented aliens who purchase a
home have a lower default rate, or lower foreclosure rate than people
who are, you know, citizens of the United States buying homes. So I
don't really give credence to all the reports about the negativity, the
harm that undocumented aliens are doing to our society. And then you
have all these farm businesses, other industries, they're saying, "We
actually need these people to work, because if they don't work in our
fields and factories and other places, we're not going to have enough
people working, and we're going to have to increase the price that
everybody else is going to have to pay." So it does seem like there must
be, or should be other solutions. That's my opinion.
00:20:15
Cline:
Right, because frequently the other solution has just been to take their
business outside the United States.
00:20:22
Chung Ryu:
Yes, and then, you know, that's caused us to suffer here, the United
States.
00:20:27
Cline:
And since our last interview, of course, we've had an extremely dramatic
downturn in the economy, and that's bound to have an impact that's going
to change this dynamic quite a bit. I think this has already had
reverberations south of the border, which are very interesting.
00:20:46
Chung Ryu:
Right. But this downturn is scary, because it's becoming global now,
right, and we're still trying to figure out whether we're at the bottom,
and you know, we're at the time of an election, so people haven't really
figured things out. But if it stays bad for a long time, you know,
whenever the economy is bad, there's always lashing out at groups, so
I'm concerned that like a year from now we're going to have a rash of
new anti-immigrant laws or discussions, you know, propositions coming
up, so we'll just have to wait and see.
00:21:26
Cline:
Right. And, of course, it's the striking down of the anti-Asian
immigration laws in 1965 that made all this Korean immigration possible,
so we forget that different people at different times have been targeted
when it comes to these sorts of decisions.
00:21:47
Chung Ryu:
Right. And people, you know, sometimes don't realize that laws regarding
even legal immigration can be made strict or more severely limited at
times of hardship for the country, you know, not being able to bring
over family members. Granting of work visas could be restricted. I mean,
there are a lot of things that can happen that isn't really tied to
illegal immigration, but that is tied to legal immigration, and we don't
know what's going to happen. And we rarely hear about it, but you know
that happens.
00:22:25
Cline:
Right. And, of course, as the world, well, as we as a nation historically
have gone and, for example, fought wars in other countries, one of them
being Korea, it's inevitable that we invite something of that nation,
most likely some of its people, here as a result, and people forget
that. I mean, look at Vietnam, you know. It's a very amazing phenomenon,
you know, boat people. You were speaking of Mexicans coming over the
border, the lengths they'll go to, but this is not just Mexicans.
00:23:04
Chung Ryu:
Yes, and I know a couple of Vietnamese-American judges, you know, who
came over on the boat. And when I was actually living in Guam, that's
when a whole big group of Vietnamese were allowed to come to the United
States, and their point of entry for a lot of them was the Island of
Guam. They actually lived in this one sectioned-off area on the island,
I guess to get clearance or whatever to come to the mainland. But I
remember going to--it was a big phenomena, a big thing in Guam, so we
all went to go look.
00:23:39
Cline:
Wow.
00:23:41
Chung Ryu:
They kind of lived like in a little camp area. I don't know if there was
actually a wall, but there was some sort of a barrier, either keeping us
from going in, or for keeping them from coming out. But they had to live
in an area, and I think some of them stayed there a few months before
they were allowed to come to the United States, the mainland.
00:24:05
Cline:
Right. There were a few of those around. There were some in Thailand, and
some different countries where they had to stay until people knew where
they were going to be allowed to go. Yes, we don't think about that when
we go and try to "save" other nations. I wanted to ask you, in you job,
how many Korean American lawyers do you see now?
00:24:33
Chung Ryu:
Actually, I see more, and you know, because I do criminal cases I see
mostly district attorneys or public defenders, some contract attorneys
and private attorneys. I remember when I started as an attorney, and I
was active in the Korean American Bar [Association], I used to keep
track of the number of Korean American D.A.'s [district attorneys] and
public defenders and so forth in the government, because especially
after the L.A. riots I thought that it was important for lawyers to be
in the public sector, to be visible, you know. And for a long time we
had just a few, but in the last five years or so there's been a great
increase, and even in my courthouse [Compton Courthouse] there's
probably about five to ten Korean American attorneys working in this
courthouse.
00:25:41
Chung Ryu:
I've also heard in the city attorney's office, L.A. [Los Angeles] City
Attorney's Office, there are over ten or fifteen Korean American
attorneys working there, and I know there's a handful in the
[California] Attorney General's Office here, too, in L.A., so that has
really increased. One time I actually wrote an article for the L.A.
County Judges' Magazine, called Gavel to Gavel,
that comes out quarterly. They had a special issue about judges with
diverse backgrounds, so I was asked to write an article, and one thing
that I pointed out in the article was, I had a case here, it involved
three attorneys, district attorney, public defender, and the alternate
public defender. There were two defendents, and we were waiting for the
defendents who were in custody to be brought up to my court, so we were
just chatting. We were the only ones here. I guess it was the last case
of the day. And then all of a sudden I realized that all of us were
Korean. The district attorney was Korean, the public defender was
Korean, and alternate public defender, and then the judge is Korean. And
I said, "It's amazing that we would actually be all together, you know,
working on one case." You know, nobody probably ever envisioned that
that could be a situation. But I thought, this is a great, great
progress we've made.
00:27:13
Chung Ryu:
So I'm very hopeful that we'll have more Korean American attorneys in the
public sector. It's really important. It's important for defendents,
it's important for witnesses, victims, and even for juror and even
people in public who come to watch, you know, that they see a diverse
group of attorneys. It affects people's perception of whether justice is
being done or not, in my opinion, yes.
00:27:48
Cline:
We talked about the Korean American community as it's progressing now
through the generations. It's unavoidable that people going through this
process become more American as the generations progress. We've talked a
little bit about Korean businesspeople. We've talked about the riots.
We've talked about what made you decide to become a judge. At this
point--and I'm putting this in sort of a larger historical context of
this part of the world, the City of Los Angeles and its
surroundings--how would you describe the contribution of the Korean
immigrant community?
00:28:45
Chung Ryu:
In L.A. County I think that the Korean American community's contribution
has been really great. I mean, I've only lived here since '84, so that's
twenty-four years only, but you know, there are people who were born
here and grew up here, and now they could be in their sixties, and they
could probably tell you more. But just looking at the number of
businesses, the sheer number of businesses that Koreans own and operate
that provide employment, that provide service and goods to the
community, and you know, part of the reason that we suffered because of
the riots is because Koreans had gone into the type of neighborhoods and
areas in L.A. County where mainstream businesses did not want to go,
because of the risk involved. And they provided, whether they were good
goods or not, you know--there was a discussion about were there too many
liquor stores being put up by Korean Americans in those neighborhoods,
but they were not all liquor stores. There were donut stores. I mean,
you have Koreans operating Mexican-food restaurants, so they
provide--they went in and opened up businesses in areas that mainstream
businesses would not, and they also provided employment, to a certain
extent, to people who live in the area.
00:30:26
Chung Ryu:
And you hear of businesspeople who supported activities in their
community, you know, the Little League or whatever. You had store owners
who were shot to death during a robbery or something, and the community
mourning over that loss, because that person was so good to everybody in
that community who came and, you know, did business there. So the
contribution, I think, is great in that sense.
00:30:54
Chung Ryu:
Also, you know, as more of the 1.5 or second generation, maybe even
third, as they go more into the mainstream and work there, provide
service, I think that kind of shows how the American dream, or America
is still the country that everybody looks up to, because people from all
different backgrounds, race, religion, ethnicity, can still come to the
United States, land of opportunity. We are proof that this land of
opportunity really exists. You know, we are great ambassadors. We can
tell stories about how we were able to come to this country and become
successful, you know, and make this our home country, claim it that way.
So I think in that sense, you know, we're contributing a lot each and
every day. Hopefully we're all doing great jobs, and we're providing
great role models for other immigrants, too, you know.
00:32:01
Chung Ryu:
I talk with law students, college students, high school students of all
races and ethnicities, and just because I'm a female and I'm in my
position, being a minority woman, I think that I provide hope for a lot
of immigrants who come here and think, oh, well, can I go into a
mainstream profession? And I'm an example of how you can do that. So in
that sense, you know, I think we provide great inspiration and role
models for a lot of young people. So our contribution in some ways is
tangible, and in some ways is intangible, but I think we contribute a
lot.
00:32:45
Cline:
Yes. And at this point we've talked about your family, and particularly
when people raise their children here it's an American culture here.
Even if racially they look different from maybe a lot of people in their
neighborhood, it is the kind of situation that can get you thinking
about this question, and that question is, what does it mean to be
Korean American, to you specifically? Or how do you see yourself, how do
you define yourself?
00:33:19
Chung Ryu:
Well, I define myself as Korean American, I really do. I am born of
Korean--I don't know if it's race or ethnicity, but I am an American,
you know. And I value a lot of things that are American, you know, our
Constitution, our rights, our jury system, that we are a very
law-abiding, orderly, freedom-of-speech type of country, you know, so I
embrace it all. I consider myself as an American who came from Korea,
you know, and I feel I'm just as American as anyone else. And it's kind
of sad, though, because I also understand and accept that not all people
will see me that way, you know, because if something happens to me, or
somebody says something to me that is a little strange or off the wall,
then almost the first thing that comes to my mind is, is that person
saying that because I am Korean first, and not American, you know?
00:34:48
Chung Ryu:
And when people ask me, "So, where are you from?" I always kind of pause,
because I go, well, are they asking me, like, where my ancestors are
from, or are they asking me, like, which neighborhood are you from? I
have no idea. But you know, most of the time I think they're asking me,
you know, are you Korean, Japanese, Chinese, because they can't tell.
And it's not a pleasant thing to be asked a question that kind of
implies that you must come from a different place, and therefore you're
not original, or you're not entitled to be here, you're not a genuine
American, you know. And I don't fault the people who ask me that, but
they don't understand the impact that it has on people who are asked
that question.
00:35:45
Chung Ryu:
And I realize that I really can't say where I'm from, because I've lived
in L.A. the longest, but I'm actually kind of from Northern California,
but from Guam, but also from Korea, so I realize, well, I don't really
have a place that I actually am from. You know, some people could say,
"I'm from Kansas," or like, "I was born and raised in Kansas," or, you
know, New York or whatever. But I really don't know. You know, my answer
would be kind of too long to say, you know, where I'm born and raised in
all these different places, so that kind of also makes me feel like,
well, I'm a little different, because I have a long explanation of where
I'm from.
00:36:32
Chung Ryu:
And I'm involved in a lot of discussions about diversity, glass ceiling,
and all those have to do with, you know, the possibility that there's
still discrimination or prejudice or bias, and when I do preside over
jury trials, you know, when we select a jury we're trying to weed out
people who are biased or prejudiced or not impartial. And I've had
people shockingly say very racist things. You know, it's really
shocking. So I'm reminded almost every day how there's still racism, and
maybe not overt, but there's still definitely prejudice. And some
people, whether good or not, are honest about it.
00:37:23
Chung Ryu:
I had a defendent who was being assisted by a Spanish interpreter. I
mean, obviously this is not an INS [Immigration and Naturalization
Service] court, so his status, immigration status, is not at issue at
all. But I had a juror who says, you know, "He must be guilty of the
crime he was charged with, because he's clearly an undocumented alien,
and I have problems with undocumented aliens." So he's clearly an
undocumented alien because he can't even speak English, and needs a
Spanish interpreter to help him, you know. And he must on top of that be
a gang member, because L.A. has a lot of Hispanic gang members who come
here just to commit crimes. I mean, I had somebody say that, and it was
so shocking to me, and it made me so angry, you know. As a judge it made
me angry, because I believe in the Constitution and our rights, and I
believe in presumption of innocence, you know, 100 percent presumed to
be innocent till you're proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, because
I believe that, and I am searching for people who believe that, because
they're the only ones who can be a good juror. And when I hear people
say that, I'm thinking, well, you know, you're an American. You're born
and raised here. You have generations of people who lived in the United
States, so how can you not believe what the country stands for, you
know? Freedom of association, a right not to be harrassed or unlawfully
searched, and a right to privacy, all that. I mean, that's part of our
founding fathers' vision for this country. We came away from other home
countries because we wanted to be this way, so how can you--by basically
saying what that person said, that was person was in a way telling me
that he or she didn't believe in the values of this country, and that
made me angry, not just because that person sounded racist, but I was
kind of thinking, well, and I'm an immigrant and I believe in all those
values. So you know, in that sense I was thinking, well, I'm more
American than that person, because I believe in what this country stand
for.
00:39:47
Chung Ryu:
And those kind of sentiments are coming out now with the elections, you
know. I heard Sarah Palin say on the radio the other day that Barack
Obama, you know, he's not--I'm paraphrasing, of course, and this is what
I got from what she said was that, you know, he's not an American like
you and me. And I was thinking, well--
00:40:14
Cline:
Yes, what is an American?
00:40:15
Chung Ryu:
--what do you mean? I mean, it's because of his name? Because his father
is an immigrant from Kenya? Is she saying if you're half black you're
not really American? What is she talking about? You know, because it has
an undertone. What's being implied is, he's different, he's different
from you and me.
00:40:44
Cline:
Right.
00:40:46
Chung Ryu:
You know, and she's playing people's fear and ignorance against people
who are different or came from other countries, you know, generations
later than your ancestors, so those kind of things are very disturbing
to me, because it kind of also attacks my ability to say I'm
American.
00:41:10
Cline:
And it's something that only someone from the dominant culture could
say.
00:41:14
Chung Ryu:
Yes, and I said, what right do you have? Because I work hard, I pay
taxes, I raised my kids to be good American citizens, you know, American
values, so what right do you have to say that I'm less of an American
than you are, just because I'm of a different skin color, or my name is
not a typical, you know, white Anglo-Saxon name.
00:41:46
Cline:
Right. Yes. These are very interesting times. When you go to Korea, what
do you feel like you are?
00:41:58
Chung Ryu:
I actually feel out of place. I can't say I feel like a foreigner,
because I look just like everybody else there. But I feel very
different, and I've had people say that I am different. You know, I've
gone to markets shopping, and people say, "You're from the United
States," and I haven't even said anything. It's not like I spoke Korean
with an American accent. And I say, "What made you say that?" I actually
had this conversation with a lady, and she said, "Oh, it's your color.
Your skin color is different, and you walk different. It's your whole
demeanor," that's what she was saying.
00:42:43
Chung Ryu:
And I recently had to actually explain this to my son [Nicholas Ryu],
because we're having a lot of discussions about being different,
politics and things like that. You know, he's seventeen and a senior in
high school, so he's really interested in those things. He's probably
also thinking about his identity, too, you know, because it's the
time.
00:43:01
Cline:
Right. This is when it starts, yes.
00:43:04
Chung Ryu:
And I said, "You know, I bet you that I probably do walk differently than
people who live in South Korea. I just don't notice it myself, but I'm
sure other people do. And maybe I'm darker, you know." Those of us who
live in the United States, we all want to get tanned and all that, but
people in South Korea, they try to avoid getting dark, you know. They
wear outrageous things to keep themselves from getting darker, so maybe
that's what it is. I don't know, but they can tell.
00:43:38
Chung Ryu:
And I'm always, I'm there and I'm sure it's just me, but I kind of feel
like, well, you know, there's so many things that are lacking in South
Korea. I know it's really strange, but I go to like these huge markets
or shopping centers, and I go, you know, they don't have enough exit
doors, you know, that are clearly marked. And I say, if like a fire
breaks out, everybody's going to die here, because you don't have
clearly marked exit doors. You don't have sprinkler systems. You don't
have fire alarms, you know. Everything is so crowded. There's just too
many people allowed. There's no maximum capacity signs in different room
or elevators, and you know, I become really critical of how it is over
there.
00:44:37
Chung Ryu:
And it's also very much a paternalistic society, and I shared with you
some of the experiences I had when I visited there, you know, being
invited, and people say inappropriate things to me, and some of them are
actually very shocking. And I think it's a sexism, you know. There's a
tremendous amount of sexism. I know that things have changed. You know,
I hear of judges who are women and raising family, a working mother,
wife, judges, and politicians, and I think the [Korean] Supreme Court
[Supreme Court of Korea] has recently maybe in the last couple of years
had women sitting in the Korea Supreme Court, so things are progressing
in terms of gender equality, but you know, the culture is still there. I
had sexist remarks made to me, and inappropriate gestures, and it just,
you know, is shocking, you know, being brought up in the United States,
and knowing all those things are so wrong and inappropriate, and it was
shocking to me.
00:46:02
Cline:
Interesting. At one point you mentioned among the people or organizations
that sponsored your visit, your ability to go visit South Korea, was one
that had to do with reunification.
00:46:18
Chung Ryu:
Yes, the [Council on the Democratic and] Peaceful Reunification [of
Korea] *[CORRECT?].
00:46:21
Cline:
Right. Can you talk a little bit about that, and perhaps describe what
your own feelings are about the North-South situation as it's going
through its rollercoaster of, what would you call it, evolution, change
or not change?
00:46:47
Chung Ryu:
You know, my perspective is from the 1.5 second-generation perspective,
so it may have its own little bias. And I do know that some people feel
really strongly about the reunification. The possibility of it is just,
it's an enormous thing for South Koreans, because some of them, you
know, they have families there, they could still have families there.
And they have had agreements between the two governments in allowing
families to visit and all that. It's really a sad situation that a
nation was split up that way. I don't know enough about the history as
to what really caused it, or whether there was actually a possibility
that it didn't have to end up that way, but I think it was just to
hasten the ending of the [Korean] War, that an agreement was made to
just divide it, instead of really trying to work on keeping it as one
country.
00:47:52
Chung Ryu:
But having been divided and having been a communist country for so long,
with those crazy dictator family (sic) in North Korea, I really don't
see how you can reunite those two countries. I really can't. It's not
even like Germany, you know, where you could break down the wall and
it's essentially not a huge difference in terms of ideology. But I don't
know how the North Korean government would ever agree on becoming a
capitalistic society, or South Korea becoming, you know, that way. The
most they could achieve probably is if you had a stable government in
North Korea, it's to have people be able to go back and forth. But then
just from what I've read in the last few years, you know, the North
Korean government is paranoid in a lot of ways, so how do you deal with
a government that's paranoid? You know, they change their mind about a
lot of things, talk about nuclear disarmament, no, no, we don't want to
talk. We only want certain people there. No, we don't want that person
there. I mean, you know.
00:49:05
Chung Ryu:
And then to have this delegation, or people from all over the country,
people of Korean descent. But you know, I went to those meetings in
South Korea, and there are literally hundreds, even maybe thousands of
people there, and, well first of all, the meetings were all in Korean.
So let's say if you grow up in the United States and you don't really
speak Korean, you couldn't understand what was happening. And it's like
in a big auditorium, like a convention center setting, and it's hard to
hear. And then what if like you grew up in Italy, you know, and you only
speak Italian, or hardly speak Korean, how do you understand? And then
it was never made clear to us, like, what we can do, you know, as
individuals or as a delegation, to help obtain peaceful reunification of
South and North Korea.
00:50:01
Chung Ryu:
And in the end I kind of felt like we went there almost as guests, you
know, because most of our trip, the majority of our expenses were paid
for, is for people to just say they were selected as part of this elite
group, you know, to go to South Korea, to participate in this big
meeting where we actually didn't achieve anything, in my opinion. Maybe
I didn't understand what was going on as much. And then we spent a lot
of time going out to dinners and karoake bars, and then we came back,
took a lot of group pictures and then we came back, and then there was
no real follow-up meeting. So after that I didn't want to be part of
that anymore, because I really didn't see what I could contribute. Maybe
people who were more first generation, maybe they knew more than I did,
and maybe they understood more than I, and they could contribute. But
for somebody like me, I couldn't, and I felt kind of bad because I know
they were making an effort to reach out to the 1.5 second generation,
and they want to include younger people. But I felt that if they really
wanted to include us, and use us for a purpose, then they should have
made it easier for us to do that, such as providing materials in
English, and providing interpreters. You know, like the United Nations,
you could have one interpreter for everybody; we could all wear a mic
and understand what's going on. And so it wasn't a real 100 percent
effort, and so I didn't feel--but I know it's a big deal in the Korean
community. You know, people fight over it.
00:51:57
Cline:
Yes, passionate feelings I was about to say.
00:51:59
Chung Ryu:
Yes.
00:52:02
Cline:
Yes. And many people seem to be just kind of of the mindset that they're
waiting for the North Korean government to just collapse on its own.
That hasn't happened yet.
00:52:11
Chung Ryu:
That might be the only way you could actually have a peaceful
reunification, yes, so we'll have to wait and see.
00:52:19
Cline:
Right, and then see what becomes of all those poor North Koreans.
00:52:23
Chung Ryu:
I know, you know. But then the South Korean government gives them all
this rice and aid, and I know people here who have been given permission
to go over there to provide aid. But then there's always the question of
whether people, the people of North Korea are actually receiving these
aids or not. It's sad.
00:52:48
Cline:
Indeed. And following up a little bit on your position as an American,
somebody who appreciates the Constitution and our legal system and our
rights as Americans, you already mentioned that we're a month away from
a presidential election. There's a lot going on, and among other things
a lot has changed legally in this country in terms of, specifically,
rights of the citizens here, ostensibly as a response to threats of
terrorism. There's been a lot of changes that perhaps the average
American, say juror, the type of person you were describing before, may
not fully even know or understand. What is your feeling about where the
country has been, and where it might be headed legally speaking, in
terms of our unique rights as Americans?
00:54:05
Chung Ryu:
Sometimes I think it's only the judiciary that can provide sufficient
check to balance actions of either the executive branch of the
government, or the legislative branch, because I think to a great extent
the executive and legislative parts of the government are controlled by,
you know, they're politicians, basically. They're subject to election,
reelection. They're more concerned about the polls and their
constituents and all that, so they're not completely independent. So
it's my view, the true independent branch of the government is the
judiciary, and I think the three branches, you know, the checks and
balances, and I think the judiciary is supposed to be the independent,
completely independent, and that's why we can review the laws and acts
of the government, and you know, declare them unconstitutional or
illegal or insufficient or too vague, or whatever it is.
00:55:41
Chung Ryu:
So I'm proud to be part of the judiciary. Of course, I'm not at the level
where I'm actually making decisions about stuff like that, but you know,
you look at the federal judges--for years and years were complaining
about the sentencing guidelines that they were required to follow that
they felt were unjust in certain instances, and it's only because of
years of the federal judges, people who work in the system, complaining,
and educating the legislators and the executive branch about the
mandatory-sentencing guidelines and how some parts of it were inherently
unfair, and took away the discretions of the judge--you know, we have to
look at each case, to a certain extent, individually and separately. So
they're the ones who actually got some parts of the law to change, and
it took a long time, but you know, people became more knowledgeable and
educated.
00:57:00
Chung Ryu:
And people who were being held without representation, without hearing
for years and years, whether they're American citizens or not, you know,
it took the Supreme Court to say, you can't do that. And they can't be
held outside of the United States. They have to be held somewhere, and
they have to have access to an attorney. They are entitled to certain
fundamental rights. And it took the court to do that. So in that sense I
think the judiciary branch of the government is very important,
especially when times get really hard.
00:57:48
Chung Ryu:
But then there are also limitations. You know, look at during World War
II, the Japanese Americans who were interned. You know, the court ruled
that the proclamation or, I forgot what it's called, the exclusion act
[Executive Order 9066], you know, I've forgotten the name, that either
the president or the Congress said you have to intern all the Japanese
Americans. It was challenged, you know, in the courts, but the United
States Supreme Court said there was sufficient basis for the government
to issue that order, and therefore upheld it, so all these Japanese
Americans were interned. And it took years and years later for a bunch
of lawyers to challenge the facts that the government presented to the
court as being wrong, almost like a misrepresentation, so then the court
overruled itself, basically saying, you know, we didn't have this
information, and if we had this information we wouldn't have said that
that order was valid. So although it was good that the court was able to
basically reverse everything, but the court is also limited in the sense
that it can only act upon the information that's submitted or before
them, and that's submitted by different entities, different groups, so
then, you know, that's also a limiting thing.
00:59:34
Chung Ryu:
But when economic times get hard, or there's polarization in terms of
sentiments in the country, I think it is actually the judiciary branch
that can actually keep the country together and bring us back to the
fundamentals, you know, our Constitution, our Bill of Rights, all the
laws that were created to protect people's rights, and also to keep
order in the country. So I see that becoming much more important.
01:00:13
Cline:
What about your own personal aspirations? Do you have anything beyond
this--
01:00:22
Chung Ryu:
Beyond this?
01:00:21
Cline:
--this particular gig that you're doing?
01:00:23
Chung Ryu:
I'm asked that a lot, but I actually don't. I had never envisioned really
that I would become a judge, and now that I've been a judge a little bit
over six years I still feel like there's so much for me to learn and get
to know, and I could tell now that it's going to take a long time for me
to really be an effective, good judge. So I feel like I still need to be
in this position for a long time. There are discussions, you know, talks
in the Korean American community especially, about me going to higher
places, such as the federal court. I know that it's been discussed, but
not directly with me, and I don't really want to discuss that with
anybody personally. But I know my husband's [James Ryu] been approached,
you know, things like that. But actually being in a trial-court level is
where you interact with the public the most, you know, and I think it's
important that I am in the public's life or public's view. I think it's
important for them to see a Korean American female judge sitting there
on the bench when they come, even if it's just for a traffic ticket or a
murder case, whatever it may be. I think it's important that I am seen,
you know, and you're seen less if you're in federal court, obviously,
and you're seen much less if you're in a Court of Appeal, because
attorneys would just see you. So I think it's important that I stay at
this level.
01:02:22
Chung Ryu:
But you know, sometimes I am not just me being an individual, Tammy Chung
Ryu, but I'm also a Korean American and I'm part of the community, and
the community wishes or dreams also have to become my dream and wish,
and I know that I became a judge because the community really wanted a
Korean American woman judge, and I know that I'm here in part because of
the community support, and if the timing is right for the Korean
American community, even if it's wrong for me, you know, if the
community wants me to go somewhere else, because it will help the
community, or add diversity to wherever I'm going, you know, I can't
just automatically say no just for personal reasons. That's because I'm
Korean American, you know, and I'm part of a community, too. And that's
something that probably makes me different.
01:03:35
Cline:
Exactly.
01:03:35
Chung Ryu:
But I had a conversation exactly like this with a Vietnamese-American
judge, a female, and she's the first Vietnamese-American woman judge in
the state, maybe even the country at the time, and we talked about this.
You know, there are certain pressures and expectations that are put on
us by our community, our ethnic community I guess, and we cannot say no,
if the timing is right and they want us to do something, because--I'm
not saying I'm a commodity of the community, but it's almost like you
just can't say no, because it's not just for you. It would be too
selfish for me to say, well, I don't want to do that because it's not
right for me, if there's no one else that can do it. So I guess that
makes me a little different from maybe other judges.
01:04:33
Cline:
Yes. Chances of seeing an Asian or even a Korean American Supreme Court
justice?
01:04:42
Chung Ryu:
Oh yes. I guess I could, even though I wasn't born here, huh? I don't
know what the requirements are. But we've never had a Korean American
female federal court judge, I don't think ever. We had a male, but not a
female, so I think there are some people in the community who are active
in the politics, they're dreaming that that could be achieved. And if
they choose you to be that person--we'll see what happens.
01:05:09
Cline:
Wow. Is there anything that you would like to say at this point that we
have not discussed that you think is important, before we call it?
01:05:20
Chung Ryu:
Well, I think that it's great that an oral history is being compiled, and
I was just thinking, you know, there are so many people that I'm sure
you've already interviewed and you're going to interview in the future,
who are really so connected to the Korean community in Los Angeles, and
in California. But I think that there are Korean Americans who are
working in the mainstream that can also provide their story of what it's
like to be a Korean American working in a mainstream, non-Korean
setting, which is where I work. There are just so many issues, you know,
that come up, your ethnicity, your gender, your race, you know,
assumptions, prejudices, biases that come up, and I think that's part of
an immigrants' community story. You know, you start from people who get
off the boat or the airline and then make it into mainstream, and I know
my goals are a little different from people who live, you know, maybe do
business in the Koreatown area, or with Koreans in South Korea, but I
see myself always trying to represent Korean Americans in everything
that I do, and I'm really thankful, and I appreciate the opportunity to
be able to share that. And actually I'm looking forward to hearing more
about Korean Americans who are actually making big contributions to
improve our country here in the United States. That's it.
01:07:36
Cline:
Thank you so much for taking all these lunch breaks with me, and on
behalf of the UCLA Library's Center for Oral History Research our
gratitude and appreciation, and all the best to you.
01:07:51
Chung Ryu:
Thank you. Thank you for accommodating my schedule.
01:07:55
Cline:
You're most welcome.
[End of interview]