Contents
- 1. Transcript
- 1.1. TAPE NUMBER: I, SIDE ONE APRIL 13, 2000
- 1.2. TAPE NUMBER: I, SIDE TWO APRIL 13, 2000
- 1.3. TAPE NUMBER: II, SIDE ONE APRIL 20, 2000
- 1.4. TAPE NUMBER: II, SIDE TWO APRIL 20, 2000
- 1.5. TAPE NUMBER: III, SIDE ONE MAY 4, 2000
- 1.6. TAPE NUMBER: III, SIDE TWO MAY 4, 2000
- 1.7. TAPE NUMBER: IV, SIDE ONE MAY 18, 2000
- 1.8. TAPE NUMBER: IV, SIDE TWO MAY 18, 2000
- 1.9. TAPE NUMBER: V, SIDE ONE MAY 24, 2000
- 1.10. TAPE NUMBER: V, SIDE TWO MAY 24, 2000
- 1.11. TAPE NUMBER: VI, SIDE ONE JUNE 1, 2000
- 1.12. TAPE NUMBER: VI, SIDE TWO JUNE 1, 2000
- 1.13. TAPE NUMBER: VII, SIDE ONE JUNE 8, 2000
- 1.14. TAPE NUMBER: VII, SIDE TWO JUNE 8, 2000
- 1.15. TAPE NUMBER: VIII, SIDE ONE JUNE 15, 2000
- 1.16. TAPE NUMBER: VIII, SIDE TWO JUNE 15, 2000
- 1.17. TAPE NUMBER: IX, SIDE ONE JUNE 21, 2000
1. Transcript
1.1. TAPE NUMBER: I, SIDE ONE
APRIL 13, 2000
-
WHITE
- Today is April 13, 2000. I am at the home of Mr. Fayard Nicholas in
Woodland Hills [California] at the Motion Picture and Television Fund
Country House. Hello, Mr. Nicholas.
-
NICHOLAS
- Hello there!
-
WHITE
- How are you today?
-
NICHOLAS
- Really good. The weather's nice. I love California. It's always
beautiful, and it's wonderful living here at the Motion Picture and
Television Country House. I've been living here now for seventeen years,
and I love it. This is the best place for actors to live. I've been
telling other actors who don't know about the place. I said, "If you
want to retire that's the place to go." That is the best place to go.
-
WHITE
- Absolutely. It's lovely. It's very quaint and peaceful.
-
NICHOLAS
- Peaceful and everything. I have something in common here with my
friends—show business.
-
WHITE
- Absolutely. It makes it a very pleasant environment.
-
NICHOLAS
- We have something to talk about.
-
WHITE
- Well, I wanted to just say on behalf of the UCLA [University of
California, Los Angeles] Oral History Program that we wanted to thank
you for affording us the opportunity to interview you. We've been
looking forward to it and I think it's going to be a very exciting
project.
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, thank you. All right!
-
WHITE
- Well, I wanted to start off the interview by just talking about your
family history. I want to get a sense of your upbringing and your
parents' upbringing. So first of all, do you have a sense, for instance,
of your grandparents on your mother [Viola Harden Nicholas]'s side?
Where they were from, what part of the country?
-
NICHOLAS
- I think my grandparents and my mother and father [Ulysses Nicholas] were
born in Mobile, Alabama, and so was I. I was born in Mobile, Alabama. My
parents were college graduates. They studied music in college. Mother
played piano and my father played drums. They were magnificent. They got
an orchestra together, and they would play in the theaters, they would
play in the orchestra pit. When I was born— I don't know anything about
Mobile, Alabama. That's where I was born, but I don't know anything
about it. I was just a little baby when they moved from Alabama. That's
why I don't know anything about it. They moved to other cities. They
moved to Chicago, Winston-Salem [North Carolina], Baltimore, Maryland,
Philadelphia. And where they would move I would go to school in those
different cities.
-
WHITE
- Well, did your mom come from a large family? Does her family still live
in Alabama or in Philadelphia?
-
NICHOLAS
- There were some that lived in Chicago and those in Alabama. My father's
family— I remember two brothers that lived in New York City. One
brother's name was Clovis [Nicholas]. I knew him, and there were
cousins. It was a big family. It was a big family. I remember I was
talking to my uncle one day, Uncle Clovis, and he said, "You know
something, Fayard? The Nicholases were never slaves." I said, "Really?
Well, tell me about it." He told me a little bit about it. He said that
they came over to America. There were English people whom they worked
for. They came over in the boat and likely were servants or something
like that, but never slaves.
-
WHITE
- So indentured servants maybe.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. They were pricey servants. They didn't have to work in the
barnyard or anything like that. They were reasonably wealthy people.
That's what he told me. I wanted him to tell me more about it, but he
passed away and I didn't hear all of it. But one day we were having
dinner together and he started talking about that. And I said, "Well,
that's very interesting that the Nicholases were never slaves."
-
WHITE
- How long ago did he pass away?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, I think it was in the sixties.
-
WHITE
- Okay. Quite some time ago.
-
NICHOLAS
- About the time that Dr. [Martin Luther] King[, Jr.] was assassinated.
-
WHITE
- Okay, '68. Okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- About that time.
-
WHITE
- Did he have other siblings?
-
NICHOLAS
- He was my father's brother. I remember there was another brother who was
a half-brother, who was the youngest one of the whole family. The last
time I saw him was in 1935.
-
WHITE
- Oh, my goodness, a long time.
-
NICHOLAS
- That's a long time ago.
-
WHITE
- Is he still living?
-
NICHOLAS
- I don't know. I don't know if he's still living. Like I said, my parents
had this orchestra and they would play these different cities like, I
remember, Baltimore, Maryland. They were playing at the Lincoln Theater
there. Have you ever heard of Toby Time? [the TOBA circuit, Theatrical
Owners and Bookers Association]. I think this theater was like that. It
was a theater that had black entertainers, and they were playing in the
orchestra pit. I was going to school there. I was going to a Catholic
school in Baltimore, Maryland.
-
WHITE
- Can we back up just a moment?
-
NICHOLAS
- How far back? [mutual laughter]
-
WHITE
- Just to give me your mother's and your father's full names.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, their names? My mother, her name was Viola Harden. My father's name
was Ulysses Nicholas.
-
WHITE
- Is he a junior?
-
NICHOLAS
- No, he wasn't a junior. They had a beautiful family. They were all
different colors. [laughs] There was one brother who had blond hair.
-
WHITE
- Really?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, real long blond hair and they wore those Buster Brown outfits. You
ever hear of that?
-
WHITE
- Yes, absolutely. Now, you said this is a brother of your mother?
-
NICHOLAS
- These are the brothers of my father. There's a picture that my sister
[Dorothy Nicholas Morrow] had on the wall that showed this family, the
sisters and the brothers of this Nicholas family. Oh, they're handsome,
handsome people. [laughs]
-
WHITE
- That's where you got your handsome looks, right? [mutual laughter]
-
NICHOLAS
- This was when they were children. There was my father. He looked exactly
the same when he was a child as when he became an adult.
-
WHITE
- Oh, really. Do you favor your father at all?
-
NICHOLAS
- I don't know. Some people say I favor my mother more. Like I was saying,
they were in this theater in Baltimore, Maryland.
-
WHITE
- So they moved, basically, from Alabama, and one of the stops was
Baltimore, Maryland. Do you know why they moved from Alabama?
-
NICHOLAS
- That's because— They moved to get work. That's why they moved. So they
were there and I was going to school there. I was going to a Catholic
school. There were the nuns who were teaching us.
-
WHITE
- Do you remember the name of the school?
-
NICHOLAS
- No, I don't recall. It's just been so long. It was in the twenties.
That's a long time ago. As I told you, I was born on October 20, 1914.
-
WHITE
- Absolutely.
-
NICHOLAS
- See how long back? Way back!
-
WHITE
- That's a few years ago.
-
NICHOLAS
- I certainly don't remember everything.
-
WHITE
- Sure, I understand.
-
NICHOLAS
- It was so wonderful because every school that I went to was integrated,
every one of them—in Baltimore, Maryland, in Philadelphia. I didn't know
anything about prejudice until I worked at the Cotton Club.
-
WHITE
- Okay, right, in the 1930s.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, in 1932. That's when we opened at the Cotton Club.
-
WHITE
- Exactly. So your school experience was one in which there was a variety
of people.
-
NICHOLAS
- It was wonderful because we had all nationalities, all colors, and we
were all the same and there was no prejudice. I felt comfortable.
-
WHITE
- Do you remember what your school days were like at all? Did you have
hobbies? Or do you remember a teacher or a fellow student or the
environment?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, I remember one afternoon I took my little brother [Harold
Nicholas] to this school, this Catholic school in Baltimore, Maryland,
and we met two of the nuns. There was a black nun and a white nun. They
approached me. I approached them. I said, "Good evening, sisters." There
was my little brother there and I took off my cap. My little brother, he
looked to see what I was doing. So he took off his cap and the sisters
said, "Oh, isn't that cute, this little boy, don't you think?" They
loved that.
-
WHITE
- He's seven years younger than you, isn't he?
-
NICHOLAS
- That's right. That was one nice thing that happened in Baltimore,
Maryland.
-
WHITE
- So this was your grammar school. Do you remember starting there when you
were in kindergarten? Or in the first grade? Did you stay there until
sixth grade?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, I was there, I guess, until the sixth grade. Then we moved to
Philadelphia.
-
WHITE
- I see. Okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- This was in the twenties.
-
WHITE
- You must have eleven or twelve years [of age] or something like that.
-
NICHOLAS
- I don't remember. It could have been that age. We moved to Philadelphia.
We went to this school called the Stanley School in Philadelphia. That
was integrated.
-
WHITE
- That was a junior high school?
-
NICHOLAS
- Something like that. When I first arrived there, they were arranging
where I would go, what class I would go to. I would meet all of the
students. Right away we became friends. So after school, we would come
out the front of the school and everybody surrounded me. One guy said,
"Say, I just heard about you. They told me you look like Rudolph
Valentino."
-
WHITE
- That's quite a compliment. [mutual laughter]
-
NICHOLAS
- Quite a compliment. I said, "Really?" "Yeah." All because I was just
being me. I didn't say that I could dance or that my parents were in
show business, nothing like that. They just liked me. That's what I like
about some of my friends, that they don't like me just because I can
dance, or just because I can sing. They like me. They like the way I
talk to them. They like my disposition. That was really a surprise to me
that all these people were surrounding me, wanting to talk to me and
saying I looked like Rudolph Valentino. That was that handsome actor in
the silent movies.
-
WHITE
- Of course. I'm very familiar with him.
-
NICHOLAS
- Because they still had silent movies in those days, see, and I loved
going to the movies to see all these great actors like Rudolph Valentino
and Charlie Chaplin and Clara Bow and Lillian Gish.
-
WHITE
- Do you have a favorite movie from that period of time? Can you recall?
-
NICHOLAS
- I was crazy about Harold Lloyd. I guess you saw this movie [Safety Last] where he's hanging on the clock
in downtown Los Angeles. I loved that movie. I was so crazy about him
that when my brother was born and my mother didn't know what to name
him, I said, "Name him Harold Lloyd." So my brother— His name is Harold
Lloyd Nicholas. I named him.
-
WHITE
- That's creative of you. Do you recall what it was like before your
brother was born and then after? Was there a big difference in terms of
the amount of attention that you received from your parents?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, I think I was the favorite because I was the first born. I guess
[that accounts for] my disposition and everything, because I was always
friendly with everybody, and I liked to talk to them and they liked
talking to me. And then my sister was born in Chicago.
-
WHITE
- Oh, she was?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, Chicago, see, because my family was always traveling.
-
WHITE
- Do you recall where you were when your brother was born?
-
NICHOLAS
- I was in Winston-Salem. That's where he was born, in Winston-Salem,
North Carolina. Yeah, he was born March 17, 1921.
-
WHITE
- What's your sister's name?
-
NICHOLAS
- Dorothy. She was born in Chicago.
-
WHITE
- Do you know her birth date?
-
NICHOLAS
- January 8, 1920. She's eighty years old.
-
WHITE
- So you were the only son for quite a number of years, from 1914 to 1920.
So, gosh, you were about six years old when your sister was born.
-
NICHOLAS
- I guess I was.
-
WHITE
- Do you remember when your sister was born?
-
NICHOLAS
- I remember in Chicago that they took my sister to have a photograph
taken of her was she was just a little baby and had on this really long
gown. She was lying down on this couch or whatever it was, and there
they were taking this picture of her. I wonder if she still has that
picture. I don't know, but I remember that when I was just a little boy.
There was my sister and they took a picture of her, and I think right
after that we went to Winston-Salem.
-
WHITE
- Because your brother was born the next year.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. In Winston-Salem. We stayed there a long time, and I went to
school there.
-
WHITE
- Do you recall anything about that area, Winston-Salem? Does it have any
memories for you?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, I remember my parents were playing in a theater called the Lincoln
Theater. It was a very nice theater.
-
WHITE
- Your mother was playing the piano, correct? And your father the drums?
-
NICHOLAS
- That's right. That's correct.
-
WHITE
- Did they have a band?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes. They played in the orchestra pit. I used to go to the theater every
day to watch all the entertainers on stage, and I liked what I was
seeing up there. So I said, "I would like to be doing something like
that."
-
WHITE
- Okay, so the first time you went to see their band was in Winston-Salem?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. I said to myself, "I like what they're doing up there. I'd like to
be doing something like that." So I taught myself how to entertain, how
to perform. Then later on I taught my brother and my sister.
-
WHITE
- Right. You guys were called the Nicholas Kids at one point.
-
NICHOLAS
- At that time, yeah. The Nicholas Kids.
-
WHITE
- I see. Now, a typical day for you at that time would have been you were
at school, and then in the late afternoon you would go and see your
parents perform? Or in the evening you would watch them perform?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes. Then the next day go back to school. I remember in Winston- Salem
my parents were playing at this theater called the Lincoln Theater and
that's where I saw the Whitman Sisters. Did you ever hear of them?
-
WHITE
- Yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- That was— There was a beautiful girl. I think her name was Elaine or
something, if I'm not mistaken. She was a beautiful dancer, lovely legs.
She had blond hair and blue eyes. She was just a lovely, lovely girl.
Why can't I think of her first name? [Alice Whitman, also billed as
Essie or Elsie] There were four sisters. They had these shows that they
did all over the country in these so-called "black theaters." It was
called TOBA. My brother and I never did work TOBA, but we were there and
we saw it. So we saw all the wonderful entertainers on stage and my
parents were playing for them. They called it Toby Time. Oh, she was
lovely, and she had a son. His name was Pops [also billed as Little
Maxie Whitman, Jr.]. Pops was a little boy, and I used to play with him
in Winston-Salem. I didn't see him for a long time. The next time I saw
him in New York, he teamed up with this other dancer called Louie. So
they were called Pops and Louie. They did a good act, a very good act. I
think they were trying to compare them with the Nicholas Brothers
[laughs], but we were different. They did their thing and we did our
thing. So that's some of the things that happened in Winston-Salem. I
remember seeing Butterbeans and Susie. They were a husband and wife
team. They made records—Okeh records, they called [the label]. I
remember when they were playing at this theater in Winston-Salem. I
forget the name of it, but they made a lot of records, conversation type
records. He wore a real tight suit, a little dirty, and tight all over,
just real tight. He looked like a skeleton.
-
WHITE
- Oh, no! He must have been a sight to see.
-
NICHOLAS
- They had a drawing of a record. On the record it said "Okeh" and had
their names on it, Butterbeans and Susie. And then when they announced
them they played the record and then said, "Here they are, Butterbeans
and Susie," and they walked right through the record. It was paper. They
walked right through, I remember that.
-
WHITE
- Of course. That would leave an impression, wouldn't it?
-
NICHOLAS
- A very good impression. Everybody loved it. Everybody just loved it.
-
WHITE
- When you were in the audience watching, were there quite a number of
people watching at the same time? Were there other kids, the other band
members' children or things like that when you were watching?
-
NICHOLAS
- I don't remember children there, but there were a lot of adults in the
audience. I think I was the only child there, and I tried to sit close
to where my dad was playing the drums and watch the show.
-
WHITE
- Did you ever have a desire to play the drums or the piano?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes. I can still play drums.
-
WHITE
- Oh, good for you.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. But mother tried to teach me to play piano. I'm sorry I didn't
really get into it. When I played I'm looking at the notes and looking
down at the keys, and you shouldn't do that. Just look at the notes and
feel for the keys and know where these notes are, and I'm doing this.
[pauses to demonstrate] So I didn't really get into it. I think the same
thing happened with my sister.
-
WHITE
- Is that so?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah.
-
WHITE
- So by the time you all moved to Baltimore, it was mom and dad and three
children.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes, that's true. I remember when we were in Winston-Salem, there was a
lady that our parents got to take care of my little brother. He called
this lady "Mama." We would leave and go to Baltimore, Maryland, and my
parents would send for him to meet us in Baltimore, Maryland. I remember
one day he was feeling real low. He had his head hanging down. I said,
"What's the matter? What's wrong, Harold?" He said, "I miss Mama." So my
parents sent him back to Winston-Salem to be with her.
-
WHITE
- Oh, really?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes.
-
WHITE
- Did he stay for quite a while?
-
NICHOLAS
- He stayed quite a while. Then, when we moved to Philadelphia and got all
settled, me at school and they working at the Standard Theatre in
Philadelphia in the orchestra pit with the orchestra, they sent for my
brother to come to Philadelphia.
-
WHITE
- I see. So your brother spent very little time in Baltimore.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes. When he arrived in Philadelphia he stayed, because this lady who
took care of him, she passed away.
-
WHITE
- Okay. They were very closely connected there.
-
NICHOLAS
- He was sad when he heard about it, that she passed away. Then he stayed
in Philadelphia. That's when I got together with my brother and my
sister and we got our little act together and called ourselves the
Nicholas Kids.
-
WHITE
- I see.
-
NICHOLAS
- That was in the twenties. It must have been 1929.
-
WHITE
- Right. Your brother would have been eight years old or so.
-
NICHOLAS
- Something like that. My sister couldn't keep the late hours. Nine
o'clock, she's had it—has to go to bed. So we told her to go on to
school and get her education, and we would put her through and we would
do the work. So we started in 1930, the two of us. So I guess that's
seventy two years we've been in show business, from 1930 to now.
-
WHITE
- Wow, seventy! Long, long time.
-
NICHOLAS
- Long time to go.
-
WHITE
- When you were practicing your act as the Nicholas Kids, were you and
your sister attending the same school? You guys were attending different
schools? You had gone through the Catholic school in Baltimore and then
you had moved on to the Stanley School in Philadelphia.
-
NICHOLAS
- That's when I got my brother and my sister together— We made up this
little act called the Nicholas Kids. We went to certain places. We went
back to Baltimore, Maryland, to work in a theater there called the Royal
Theater.
-
WHITE
- So you headlined there as the Nicholas Kids?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. Then after that we went back to Philadelphia, and that's when she
said she can't take it anymore. She gave up.
-
WHITE
- The rehearsals were too strenuous.
-
NICHOLAS
- See, my brother and I, we're night owls.
-
WHITE
- Oh, I see. Okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- That's what it was. It wasn't that it was too strenuous for her. Nine
o'clock— She's had it. That's it. My brother and me, we'd just stay up
all night at the nightclubs or wherever it may be.
-
WHITE
- So you guys would go to school during the day, and then after school you
would go and watch your parents at the Standard Theatre, and then you
guys would stay up most of the evening.
-
NICHOLAS
- Let me tell you this. One evening my parents came to our apartment after
the theater and they saw all of the lights were on in the living room.
My parents said, "Why are you up? You should be in bed. You have to go
to school tomorrow." We said, "Sit down. We want to show you something."
So we started going through all these different routines, and after we
finished our parents looked at each other and said, "Hey, we've got
something here." So they gave up their orchestra to manage us.
-
WHITE
- I see. Just like that.
-
NICHOLAS
- Just like that.
-
WHITE
- Wow, the talent must have been very obvious.
-
NICHOLAS
- We worked at the Standard Theatre. My parents took us to the Standard
Theater and introduced us to the manager of the theater, J.T. [John T.]
Gibson. We was staying at his apartment building, which was called the
Gibson Apartments. So my father said to him, "I think my boys have a
little talent. Would you look at them?"
-
WHITE
- Now, was the owner of this theater African American?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes. It was one of those theaters that we called the "black theaters,"
but it was very famous. Everybody would go there to see the different
shows because they had— Louis Armstrong was there. My parents played for
him. Buck and Bubbles [Ford Lee Washington and John William
Sublett]—they played for them. There was Leonard Reed and Willie
Bryant—they were there. There were Pete, Peaches and Duke—they were
there. The Berry Brothers [Ananias, Jimmy, and Warren Berry]—they
played— So they played for a lot of famous people.
-
WHITE
- They were quite accomplished, then.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes, they were. So that day we got up on stage and sang a little
song and danced for J.T. Gibson. We did a little soft-shoe and he said,
"Oh, that's good." He said, "You don't need to do anymore. You're booked
here next week."
-
WHITE
- Just like that.
-
NICHOLAS
- He could see we had all this talent. We became stars right away, because
when we performed we didn't perform like children. You could see our
baby faces, but the rest of us looked like adults. So that made us sort
of like a novelty, because right away they just fell in love with us. We
couldn't get off the stage. We just did number after number after
number. They would keep calling us back and calling us back. We were
getting so tired. So when we would go to our dressing room, I said to my
brother, "Something has to be done. I can't stand it—dance after dance
after dance." I said, "Let's put some singing in the act. Let's talk to
the people." My brother said [speaks in a weary voice], "I'm with you!"
-
WHITE
- It's exhausting work.
-
NICHOLAS
- So the next day I told the manager of the theater this is what we were
going to do and we rehearsed with the orchestra. I said, "The next day
I'll come out— We'll open up with a little dance, a little something
that's not strenuous. I go to the microphone and say, "Thank you very
much, ladies and gentlemen. I'm so happy that you came to see our show.
Right now my brother's going to sing a song." I think it was [George and
Ira Gershwin's] "Oh, Lady, Be Good!"at that time. I said, "I'm going to
conduct the orchestra." So as he's singing I'm conducting the orchestra.
The funny thing about it, they were listening to him but they were
watching me, because the way I would conduct— With my hands, with my
head, with my feet, with my butt. I'd be keeping all the beats of the
arrangement, and it was very successful.
-
WHITE
- This wasn't the same orchestra that your parents played in, right? This
was a different orchestra.
-
NICHOLAS
- It was a different orchestra, right. So now we are entertainers. Before,
we were dancers.
-
WHITE
- I see. Okay, that's the significant difference.
-
NICHOLAS
- That's the difference. We're entertainers now, and we stayed
entertainers. It was all that dancing; it would tire us out.
-
WHITE
- Sure. How would you manage that schedule when you danced most of the
evening and entertained, and then went to school the next day? How would
you manage that schedule?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, we had a tutor.
-
WHITE
- Oh, you did. You began to have a tutor at that time. So you were no
longer attending the Stanley School.
-
NICHOLAS
- Right. When we started professionally in the theater, my parents got a
tutor to travel with us.
-
WHITE
- So once you actually performed at the Standard Theatre and everyone
found out how talented you were, there was a certain point in time when
you said your parents gave up their careers and decided to manage you
and you were deemed a professional at that time.
-
NICHOLAS
- Right.
-
WHITE
- That's when they decided to go ahead and get you a tutor, so you could
concentrate on your talents.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes. That's right. We couldn't go to school at that time. It would be
too much on us. Like I said, we became stars right away and we had this
tutor who would come to teach us. At that time, everybody was talking
about the Nicholas Kids or the Nicholas Brothers. They heard about us
everywhere—in New York, in Chicago, in New Jersey, you name it. They saw
us in Philadelphia at the theaters that we played, like the Standard
Theatre and the Pearl Theater, and they were talking about these
Nicholas Brothers. Everybody would say, "Who are these Nicholas
Brothers? They're raving about them so much." The manager of the
Lafayette Theatre, which was in Harlem, in Manhattan, came to see us
because he had heard about the Nicholas Brothers. He saw the show, and
then after the show that he saw, he came to see us at our dressing room.
So he knocked on the door and my father answered the door. He said,
"Hello, my name is—" And I just saw those two boys. They are your sons?"
He said, "Yes, they are." He said, "They were marvelous. I have a
theater in New York City. It's the Lafayette Theatre, and I'd like for
them to come there." So my father said, "Yes, fine. If the price is
right, yes, then we'll go there."
-
WHITE
- Do you recall receiving a salary at that time for your performances?
-
NICHOLAS
- No, we didn't worry about money at that time. My parents took care of
all the bills, all the places that we would work, handled all the money.
All they would do was have us looking sharp. We'd always wear these
wonderful suits, shoes, everything. Mother made sure our hair was just
right, everything, the fingernails— It was a class act.
-
WHITE
- Now, the stylish suits that you guys would wear and the spit-shined
shoes— Was this more characteristic of your mother's style or your
father's style or a combination?
-
NICHOLAS
- Both of them. Both of them were stylish. Mother dressed well and so did
Father. So they wanted their children to look good too, and we liked
looking good.
-
WHITE
- You guys certainly did, on all your film clips and every movie that I've
seen. I've never seen you guys in a pair of jeans. Would you ever wear
just casual clothes or things like that?
-
NICHOLAS
- No, no.
-
WHITE
- Never.
-
NICHOLAS
- When we were on stage, there would be those little— Or when we'd go out
to different places. But if we were going to some place like the Beverly
Hilton here in Los Angeles, it might even be black tie, and we'd wear
that, or if it wasn't black tie we would always wear our jackets and a
tie. We always dressed like that. We'd never go in jeans, baggy pants,
just like you see some of the entertainers today.
-
WHITE
- Was that pretty much the case whenever you were in public? You would get
dressed up?
-
NICHOLAS
- Always.
-
WHITE
- Always.
-
NICHOLAS
- Even when we'd just go out to see friends in different places, where
they'd invite us to their hotels or wherever they'd be, if we'd go out
and play we were always sharp.
-
WHITE
- Interesting. Now, at this time your parents had decided to get you a
tutor. So you were no longer in a traditional kind of school. Do you
recall how you felt about that? I know you were enjoying your
performance, but do you recall thinking about the kinds of activities
that school children do, recreational games or just the social
environment of being in school? Do you recall?
-
NICHOLAS
- I recall that children liked to play baseball, basketball, football, all
those things. That's their play. But my brother and I on stage, that's
our play. We loved to entertain and we hoped that the audience liked us,
because we were having fun and we hoped that they were having fun. It
seemed as though— When they would come backstage to our dressing room
and they would tell us how wonderful they thought we were, they said it
was so intimate they felt like they were on the stage with us. I said,
"Yeah, that's the way I want you to feel, like you were in our living
room at our home and we were entertaining you." They'd say they felt
that way.
-
WHITE
- That's interesting. So most of your interactions were with adults. Do
you recall having boyhood friends, other people your age? Did you get a
chance to see them or interact with them?
-
NICHOLAS
- I had school friends. When we were staying at the Park Lincoln in New
York City— It was 321 Edgecomb Avenue, the Park Lincoln, and we stayed
on the first floor there, apartment 1A. Washington Heights. That's where
we stayed. We were working at the Cotton Club at that time. The first
show at the Cotton Club was twelve [o'clock] midnight. The first was at
twelve midnight and the second one would be at three thirty in the
morning. So there we were in this nightclub called the Cotton Club.
Maybe we'd get away from the Cotton Club at six o'clock in the morning
or something like that, maybe seven. So now we'd go into our apartment.
We would get to sleep or try to get some sleep because our teacher was
coming at three o'clock in the afternoon. So our parents would wake us
up and say, "Your teacher's coming. It's time to get up, brothers." So
we'd get up and then spend an hour or two with her, and then we'd go
back to bed.
-
WHITE
- Quite a schedule for a young person.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, we'd go back to bed and sleep more. We had a wonderful cook who
stayed with us. Mother would wake us up and say, "Fellahs, it's time for
dinner." So we'd go to the bathroom and take a shower and brush our
teeth and comb our hair and all that. Then we'd come and have dinner.
1.2. TAPE NUMBER: I, SIDE TWO
APRIL 13, 2000
-
NICHOLAS
- We were very lucky because we had wonderful parents who taught us right
from wrong. All those things that other kids did I didn't want to do. I
liked our lifestyle, the way my parents brought me up. I just didn't
like all the other things that kids would do, be with gangs and all of
that. That wasn't my cup of tea.
-
WHITE
- Wasn't your style.
-
NICHOLAS
- That wasn't my style at all.
-
WHITE
- A moment ago you were going to talk about classmates that you had or
friends that you had that were your age, when you had an opportunity to
interact with them. Do you recall their names?
-
NICHOLAS
- I remember one friend I had in Baltimore, Maryland. His name was Ernest.
He became a good friend of mine. He would come over to our apartment in
Baltimore, Maryland, and we'd play together like children do, or there'd
be maybe a little baseball or something like that. Football— I hated
that game. [mutual laughter]
-
WHITE
- I don't blame you.
-
NICHOLAS
- All these guys who get all of this money, millions of dollars— They
deserve every penny they get because they don't last long.
-
WHITE
- That's for sure.
-
NICHOLAS
- They get broken knees, hips, elbows, ribs. They get all messed up. So
they deserve every penny that they get.
-
WHITE
- I wholeheartedly agree.
-
NICHOLAS
- They don't last long.
-
WHITE
- You had friends that liked to play football? Did they try to encourage
you to come out and play those sports?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, but I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't do it. That's one of the things—
I played a little touch football with them. We're running, and I touch
you and you're down.
-
WHITE
- That's enough.
-
NICHOLAS
- You're down. That's enough. But don't tackle— No, none of that.
-
WHITE
- That's dangerous because your legs, that was your business. That's
important.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yeah! Of course. He was my good friend in Baltimore, Maryland.
Ernest was his name. We kept in touch with each other. When I moved to
New York, we kept in touch. Well, Philadelphia, too. But I lost contact
with him. I don't know what really happened with him. But we would
correspond, and all of a sudden we didn't hear from each other anymore.
-
WHITE
- Lost touch.
-
NICHOLAS
- Lost touch.
-
WHITE
- Do you recall the kind of reaction you would get from other kids?
Because your lifestyle was so different than other kids. Was there any
sort of envy or anything like that from other kids?
-
NICHOLAS
- No, no. We had some friends in Washington Heights whom we played with.
We'd go to different parties with them. I think it was about eight kids
that we were associated with in Manhattan in the thirties. We started at
the Cotton Club in 1932. That's when we were friendly with the children
in the neighborhood, because we didn't go to school. They did, but we
didn't because we had a tutor.
-
WHITE
- They must have been very envious of that lifestyle.
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, I don't know. We were just children who liked to be with each
other, talk to each other, play games with each other, and never talked
about the Nicholas Brothers in the Cotton Club or anything else. We were
just children. So I could never talk about it either. That was another
part of my life.
-
WHITE
- Okay. That was something that you guys didn't have in common, so it
never came up really in conversation.
-
NICHOLAS
- No, it never did come up. We also had girlfriends, too.
-
WHITE
- Okay. [mutual laughter] Of course you did.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, of course we did. We became very friendly with two twin girls.
They were called the Brown twins, Hilda and Vivian. We became very
friendly with them. Later on they danced at the Cotton Club. They became
two of the dancing girls, with all of the other girls. There was another
girl—ooh, she was so pretty!—her name was Winnie Johnson. Oh, my
goodness. She was like my first love. I liked the Brown twins too, but
this Winnie Johnson did something to me. Oh, brother! So she was one of
the dancing girls also, in the Cotton Club with the dancing girls. I
remember another girl that I liked, Edna Mae Holly. She married Sugar
Ray Robinson.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, I liked her, too.
-
WHITE
- Did you have an opportunity during this period of time to date? Would
your schedule afford you time to do so?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, I guess you'd call it a date, [but] my parents were always with
us. So if there was any hanky-panky— It wouldn't happen! It never did
happen because they were always there.
-
WHITE
- That's funny.
-
NICHOLAS
- I would kiss the girls and things like that, but that's as far as it
would go because my parents, they took good care of us. And I'm glad
they did because we could have gotten in trouble. Oh, yes. Children do.
Even those who are not in show business will get in trouble. When you're
in show business, you're exposed to all these things. You see all these
beautiful girls backstage and they'd be checking up their legs and we'd
be looking— Holy crackers, what's going on here! [mutual laughter] We
had the feeling, but our parents, they took very good care of us.
-
WHITE
- They curtailed any of those activities, right?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, and I'm glad they did.
-
WHITE
- Sure. Now, you spoke a moment ago about influences that other kids had.
You said that you guys were living in Washington Heights. That was, I
think, at the time when you were performing at the Lafayette, around
that period of time?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, before we moved to Washington Heights— That was the first
engagement, there at the Lafayette Theatre in Manhattan. It was after
that. Then we moved to Washington Heights and got an apartment there,
321 Edgecomb Avenue, because we were living in some other places. I
guess you would call it typical Harlem there. On Lennox Avenue there was
some kind of apartment building where we lived. I forget the name of the
building where we were before we moved to the Park Lincoln, 321 Edgecomb
Avenue in Washington Heights, but when we went to the Lafayette Theatre,
that's where we were. I think it was on Lennox Avenue.
-
WHITE
- Can you describe the neighborhood for Lennox Avenue at that time and
also at the Park Lincoln?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, that was where the Cotton Club was—also where the Savoy Ballroom
was—on Lennox Avenue. The Apollo Theatre was on 125th Street between 7th
Avenue and 8th Avenue. So we played there a lot, too.
-
WHITE
- So this was the late twenties basically, when you were at the Lafayette,
before you went to the Cotton Club in 1932.
-
NICHOLAS
- No, wait a minute, wait a minute. We started in 1930, our career. We
opened in the Lafayette Theatre in 1932. Just don't bother to talk about
the twenties now, because we did not perform in the twenties.
-
WHITE
- Okay. At all.
-
NICHOLAS
- No. The only way I performed in the twenties was when I'd perform in
school plays. I would do benefits. This is without my brother or my
sister.
-
WHITE
- I see.
-
NICHOLAS
- This was by myself.
-
WHITE
- Oh, for school benefits.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, for school, which was in the twenties. I remember one of my first
engagements was on the radio.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- It was Horn and Hardart.
-
WHITE
-
Horn and Hardart Children's Hour, wasn't
it?
-
NICHOLAS
- Right. That's right. I think the producer of this all-kiddie show Horn and Hardart saw me at one of the
benefits and invited me to come on and do something on the radio. So I
was singing, talking and tap-dancing over the radio.
-
WHITE
- Oh, were you? Okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- Then I said to the producer, "I have a little brother. I think he has
some talent." He said, "Well, bring him!" So then my brother had to come
over there, and he was tap-dancing on the radio. I think the station was
[radio station] WCAU. That was the station.
-
WHITE
- In Philadelphia.
-
NICHOLAS
- That was one of our first jobs, you might say.
-
WHITE
- You were actually compensated for doing this work?
-
NICHOLAS
- I think so. I told you I never did worry about money. I just wanted to
entertain, but we must have gotten something.
-
WHITE
- Sure. Now, radio at that time was the primary form of entertainment. Of
course, television hadn't come to pass at that point.
-
NICHOLAS
- Television wasn't even thought about.
-
WHITE
- Absolutely. Did you listen to the radio a lot?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes. I used to listen all the radio shows like with Bob Hope, Red
Skelton, all the big bands, Benny Goodman. I always tuned the radio up.
I liked it because it was great in those days. Then, when Jack Benny and
Eddie "Rochester" Anderson— I loved those shows.
-
WHITE
- Do you recall ever thinking that maybe radio would be a career for you?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, we did try one time. We were in Chicago at the Chez Paris and we
were there with Ben Bunny and his orchestra. And Ben Bunny, he liked us
and he said he wanted us on his radio show. So we did. They liked it
when I was tapdancing. Oh, it sounds so good over the radio. They loved
that. Then there was singing and we brought up sketches. We did the
opening show and then all of a sudden they didn't want the Nicholas
Brothers anymore. We said, "Why? What's the matter?" They said, "The
producer said that your brother's voice sounds too much like Ben
Bunny's."
-
WHITE
- Oh, there was too much competition.
-
NICHOLAS
- Too much competition. Our manager at that time was Herman Stark, who was
also the manager of the Cotton Club.
-
WHITE
- I see. This was your personal manager.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, he was the manager. So he threatened them, because— I guess you
know that the Cotton Club was run by gangsters.
-
WHITE
- Right. I'm aware of that.
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, he was one of them. So he had this threatening thing about him. He
said, "You've got to keep them on." So they kept us on for four weeks.
For four weeks we were on and we did different numbers each week. So at
least we were on, and all of the country heard us on this show.
-
WHITE
- So this is basically your first job.
-
NICHOLAS
- First job on radio. Of course, we did that thing in Philadelphia, but
that wasn't really a big thing. But this was a big thing. It was
national, played all over the country. That was our radio experience.
-
WHITE
- What kind of response did you get from the audience? Did you have people
writing you and telling you that they had heard you?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. Oh, they loved us. They loved us on the radio, but those producers
had their way. So what could Ben Bunny do? Because Ben Bunny— They made
a recording of the show, and he was in his room at a hotel there in
Manhattan and he was listening to this record over and over again,
because he really wanted us on that show. He wanted us to be on that
show for the run of it. But we were only on for four weeks. That's the
agreement that they made with our manager. The whole country heard about
the Nicholas Brothers and they loved those taps.
-
WHITE
- I'm sure they did. Now, at this point you had another manager. Your
mother and father had decided no longer to manager you.
-
NICHOLAS
- My mother and father managed us. We went to the Cotton Club. Two years
straight we weren't going any other place.
-
WHITE
- Did you have this manager before you started at the Cotton Club? You
did, because you had him when you were at the radio show.
-
NICHOLAS
- Our manager was the manager of the Cotton Club. Before that, my mother
and father were our managers. Then they found out that the manager of
the Cotton Club, who wanted to be our manager, could do better things
than they could do. They were doing well, but they knew the power that
he had. So he became our manager, and at the time we did those radio
shows he was our manager. So my parents were not managers anymore, but
they always did travel with us.
-
WHITE
- So that's how they spent most of their time. Were they performing at all
at that point?
-
NICHOLAS
- No.
-
WHITE
- They decided to leave it alone.
-
NICHOLAS
- I guess we made enough money to take care of everybody. So we bought
Mother's fur coats and all of that. Dad was always sharp. So it worked
out well. Like I said, we were at the Cotton Club two years straight
before we went to any other place. Then Samuel Goldwyn, the producer,
saw us at the Cotton Club and wanted us to be in this new movie starring
Eddie Cantor. The name of the movie was Kid
Millions. Ethel Merman was in it, George Murphy was in it,
Ann Sothern, and a comedy team called Block and Sully. So that was our
first time out here in Los Angeles, to do this film called Kid Millions. Everybody just fell in love
with us. It was our first movie out here. It was in 1934.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- We had such a wonderful time. Oh, it was so funny. George Murphy was
supposed to be the interlocutor of a minstrel show that was on this ship
that was going abroad. Samuel Goldwyn liked my brother so much that he
said, "I want Harold Nicholas to be the interlocutor. Take George Murphy
out." Eddie Cantor said, "Can you imagine what Sam said? He wants that
kid to be the interlocutor in this movie." He said, "You're stealing the
film from everybody."
-
WHITE
- And that's what happened, right?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, no. See, Eddie Cantor was the star of the movie. So Eddie Cantor—
This will not happen because— They always say animals and kids will
steal the show if they're in it with you. So Eddie Cantor knew what
would happen if they made my brother the interlocutor.
-
WHITE
- I see.
-
NICHOLAS
- But we did a good job in it. We wore white tails and high hats [top
hats]. At the beginning of this show that they did on the ship, they
opened up with my brother singing a song called "I Want to be a Minstrel
Man." He sang the chorus all by himself, and then the next chorus these
beautiful girls came out called the Goldwyn Girls, the blonds and the
brunettes and the redheads. They were surrounding my little brother.
They had on a sort of a costume, like a jacket with little [coat]tails,
and showed all their beautiful legs. They didn't wear pants. And they
looked good. They had high hats, but they were in sort of black and
white costumes. Their shirts would be white and the rest of the costume
would be black, the black hose and the black shoes. They were
surrounding my little brother. Now, that was integration before
integration. They had never done that before in motion pictures. They
had this little boy— What did they call us then? "Colored," didn't they?
-
WHITE
- Yes. [mutual laughter]
-
NICHOLAS
- So he did a good job and he was singing and looking at all these—
Because they would kneel down on their knees and look at him, and he's
looking at them. Oh, boy, he was in heaven! Now, Lucille Ball was one of
those Goldwyn Girls. We'd go outside between the takes and we're talking
to my mother and father, my sister and my brother and me. We were
outside talking and catching a little fresh air. All of a sudden we see
Lucille Ball. She was coming towards us and she had a little dog. When
she got closer to us, my brother said, "Oh, that's a nice little dog. I
like it." Lucille said, "You do? He's yours." So she gave him the dog.
But the funny thing about it— His dog, but I had to take care of it. I
didn't like that at all. [mutual laughter]
-
WHITE
- I'm sure. While he was off dancing and singing, right?
-
NICHOLAS
- I said to my parents, when I saw Lucille, "That girl has star qualities.
I bet one day she's going to be a star." In this movie all she did was
look pretty with all the other girls; she wasn't a part of the story. I
said, "She's going to be a star," because she had that same energy that
she had when she was doing I Love Lucy and
all the motion pictures that she made. I never dreamed she was going to
be a superstar.
-
WHITE
- You were a visionary; you predicted something there.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, I had that vision, didn't I?
-
WHITE
- Yes, you did, and what a long and fruitful career she had.
-
NICHOLAS
- That was a wonderful time that we had, when we were doing this motion
picture called Kid Millions.
1.3. TAPE NUMBER: II, SIDE ONE
APRIL 20, 2000
-
WHITE
- I am at the home of Mr. Fayard Nicholas in Woodland Hills. Hello there,
Mr. Nicholas. How are you?
-
NICHOLAS
- Hello there. Like you said, you're at my home and the name of my home is
the Motion Picture and Television [Fund] Country House. I'm feeling
good. I'm going to be a happy man tomorrow, because I'm getting married
to my lovely lady, Catherine Hopkins.
-
WHITE
- Congratulations to you. That's very exciting.
-
NICHOLAS
- Thank you. We're going to get married at city hall in Van Nuys at 4:15
tomorrow.
-
WHITE
- At 4:15, Friday, April 21, 2000.
-
NICHOLAS
- Friday, April 21. Good Friday.
-
WHITE
- Good Friday! That's perfect.
-
NICHOLAS
- It's going to be a good deal.
-
WHITE
- I'm sure it is. The whole day, everything.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes. She's going to wear her gown, her wedding gown, and I'm going to
wear my tuxedo. So we're going to be the sharpest ones there.
-
WHITE
- I'm sure you are.
-
NICHOLAS
- I know we are. I hope nobody comes in their jeans.
-
WHITE
- You're known for your dapper outfits. I'm sure you'll be the best
dressed man in the room.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, well, thank you.
-
WHITE
- Your evening and the whole weekend is going to make for a very joyous
new beginning for life for you, Mr. Nicholas.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes. We're going to have a little honeymoon, because we're going to
drive up to Santa Barbara and we're going to see a show there called
Ain't Misbehavin'. I guess you've
heard about that.
-
WHITE
- Yes, I have. I've heard it's a very good play.
-
NICHOLAS
- The music of Fats Waller. So we're going up there for a day or two and
just have a ball, just have wonderful— Oh, but before we leave— It'll be
on Saturday that we go to Santa Barbara. After our wedding, we're going
to this French restaurant— I forget the name of it. Catherine should be
here; she writes everything down. My sister [Dorothy Nicholas Morrow]
and her husband [Byron Morrow] will be there, my two sons, Tony [Anthony
Nicholas] and Paul [Nicholas], and one of my granddaughters, Cathy
[Nicholas]. She'll be there. My friend Jackie Curtis, he'll be there
with his wife Bobby. Her name is Barbara, but they call her Bobby. He's
going to videotape the wedding, and she's going to take still pictures
of the wedding. So that'll be nice and something for us to look at one
day in our old age. [mutual laughter]
-
WHITE
- Well, I hope I'll have an opportunity to see some of your photos. That
would be exciting.
-
NICHOLAS
- Thank you. Yes. That's going to be nice. It's nice to have nice friends
who appreciate you and they're not phonies and they think positive. I
think that's why Catherine likes me, because I think positive.
-
WHITE
- I'm sure that has a lot to do with it.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes. All the other men that she's been with are all negative, she
was telling me. She said she likes me because I give her space. I don't
holler at her. If she gets a little upset, I just keep quiet and just
let her get herself together. She likes that about me. I've been that
way all my life, with my last two marriages, to Geri [Geraldine] Pate
Nicholas—now she's Geri Pate Branton—and with my second wife, Barbara
January, who became Barbara January Nicholas. I got along with them
beautifully, just like I get along with Catherine, who's going to become
my third wife.
-
WHITE
- I guess marriage suits you well.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes, I think so. I like to get married. I married Barbara in
Philadelphia, and her sister [Vivian Vaughters] was there. One of her
sisters stayed in Philadelphia, and she said, "You and Barbara have to
get married." So she arranged the marriage with a reverend there from
her church and we got married. Then the next time Barbara and I got
married was in Las Vegas. We were there to see a show with Gregory
Hines. He was playing at the MGM Hotel with Rich Little. So he was there
to see us get married. My brother [Harold Nicholas] and his wife [Rigmor
Newman] were there. My brother was the best man. So they were the
witnesses. That was the second time Barbara and I got married. Now, the
third time was right here at the Motion Picture [and Television Fund
Country House] library. It was a Bahá'í wedding because Barbara and I
are Bahá'ís. So we had the Bahá'í wedding there. That was great. The
family came. All of Barbara's sisters came. She has four sisters. So
it's five girls all together and there's one brother-in-law [Alfred
Johnson] and Barbara's mother. It was a beautiful ceremony. They don't
have a clergyman in the Bahá'í faith. If you want to learn about the
faith, there will be a speaker. You go to someone's home and he will
speak and tell you about the faith, and we'll have a little break and
have tea and coffee and maybe cookies or whatever, and then he'll come
back and you can ask him any questions. Ask him something about the
Bible or anything, and he'll try to explain it to you. In the Bahá'í
faith, we believe in all religions. So when Catherine and I get married
again we're going to have a rabbi. We're going to have a priest. We're
going to have a Bahá'í and a Hindu [officiant].
-
WHITE
- Really?
-
NICHOLAS
- Four. All of them there together.
-
WHITE
- Wow. So who is going to perform the ceremony?
-
NICHOLAS
- You mean tomorrow?
-
WHITE
- Yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- Someone there at the courthouse.
-
WHITE
- Oh, the courthouse tomorrow. Okay, that's different.
-
NICHOLAS
- But when we have the other marriage, we'll have to find out who will be
the rabbi and the priest and get them all there together. Catherine said
she would like for the rabbi to be the last one to give us his
blessings, because I think there's a glass that they put on the floor
[stamps his foot] and we crush it.
-
WHITE
- Right. That's the tradition.
-
NICHOLAS
- That's for good luck.
-
WHITE
- So will you guys follow the African American tradition and jump over the
broom?
-
NICHOLAS
- I don't know. I don't know, I didn't think about that. I'm going to tell
Catherine about that because she— That's why she's crazy about me,
because I believe in all the religions and she believes in all the
religions and the men that she's been around, they don't dig her with
that. They don't like her because she goes with this. I go to the temple
with her, the Jewish temple, and she's been with me to a fireside in the
Bahá'í faith. We just go to all of them, and she likes that about me.
-
WHITE
- That's great.
-
NICHOLAS
- That's because the other guys, they wouldn't go. We believe in all the
prophets, but there are some people who are religious fanatics. All they
can say is "Jesus Christ." Everything is Jesus Christ. I remember one of
Barbara's sisters— Her name is June [Johnson] and that's all she says to
me—"Jesus Christ." One day she was saying, "The only way you can reach
God is through Jesus Christ." I said, "Well, that's fine, June. But," I
say, "maybe I want to make a shortcut and go straight to God." [mutual
laughter]
-
WHITE
- So the Bahá'í faith is basically based on embracing your spirituality as
opposed to practicing a religion, so to speak.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, it's a beautiful religion. It started in 1844. Like I said, we
believe in all the prophets—Jesus Christ, Mohammed, and all of them. You
name them. Our prophet is Bahá'u'lláh. He's one. He's like Jesus Christ,
because Jesus Christ suffered. Well, Bahá'u'lláh suffered, too. He first
started in Persia, which is Iran now. They put him in jail and he was in
jail for many many years. So he was just like Jesus Christ, because
Jesus Christ suffered and they killed him and all of that. So the
Bahá'u'lláh, he died in this prison, and he did it because of the faith.
So it's a beautiful— I wish you could go with me sometime to a fireside.
-
WHITE
- Maybe I will. How were you introduced to that faith?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, let me tell you this. My wife's daughter— Barbara had had a daughter
by her first marriage.
-
WHITE
- What's her name?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, her original name was Pamela [Peterson] and we called her Pam.
Then she changed the name to Nina[trova] [Peterson]. Then, after that,
she changed it to Carlahansa [Peterson].
-
WHITE
- Is she an actress?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes, she's an actress and a singer. She went to one of the firesides of
the Bahá'í faith. Barbara and I were in our apartment and she was out.
We didn't know where she was—Nina. We were worried about her, and when
she arrived at the apartment, we said, "Where have you been? We've been
so worried about you." She said, "I had the most wonderful time in my
life." I said, "Well, tell us about it." She said, "I was at a fireside
for the Bahá'í faith." Then she said, "You should go there," because she
didn't come home until four o'clock in the morning. She said, "You must
go there." I said, "Okay. All right." We were staying in a duplex type
of thing, apartment building, where there was our friend who was
downstairs. His name was John Angelo. We were staying upstairs and we
had a terrace and everything. It was right downstairs where she was. We
didn't know she was downstairs.
-
WHITE
- Really? Until four in the morning, she had been right downstairs.
-
NICHOLAS
- I said, "Okay." So we went there. When John Angelo opened the door I
could feel love, because the people were so nice. So we listened to the
speaker. I didn't declare myself right away. I wanted to hear more about
it, but my wife became a Bahá'í right away. It took me a year before I
became a Bahá'í. Then I found out what our daughter was talking about,
because these people didn't have this thing like the Bahá'í faith is the
greatest in the world and that's it. Like June, my wife's sister. That
was it. Jesus Christ and nothing else. She would always say, "He died
for us. He was our savior." I said, "Okay, that's fine. But you just
think that Jesus Christ was the only one. My goodness, June." So I took
her to a fireside. She agreed to go with me. Her husband, he went too.
She was listening, but she wasn't convinced at all. After the speaker
finished speaking, her husband came over to me and said, "Fayard—" He
didn't believe in any religion. He was an atheist. He said, "Fayard, if
I were going to have any kind of religion, the Bahá'í faith would be it,
because it makes sense to me." I said, "Are you going to declare
yourself?" He said, "No, I've got to hear more about it. I'll have to
come to other firesides." So it opened his eyes. He didn't care about
that way his wife was always trying to convert everybody.
-
WHITE
- What is his name?
-
NICHOLAS
- His name is Alfred, Alfred Johnson. His wife was June Johnson.
-
WHITE
- So you've been following the Bahá'í faith from that point forward?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes, since 1967.
-
WHITE
- Wow, that's a long time.
-
NICHOLAS
- I've been a Bahá'í, and they're wonderful people.
-
WHITE
- That's great.
-
NICHOLAS
- When I was younger, my mother [Viola Harden Nicholas] would take me to
church every Sunday and she was a Methodist. I hated to go to church
because I'd get there and the reverend— All he'd say is, "You are all
sinners. You are going to hell if you don't straighten up and fly
right." I didn't want to hear that. I want to hear something about how
to make this a better world. I want to hear about love. We should love
each other. I don't want to hear about sinners and all of that.
-
WHITE
- Did your father [Ulysses Nicholas] go to church with you?
-
NICHOLAS
- I guess he did. I was very young then. He [Ulysses Nicholas] wasn't very
religious, but my mother, she would read the Bible every night.
-
WHITE
- Religion played a very significant role in her life.
-
NICHOLAS
- It was right at her bedside. She was always religious. So I was always
searching. I would go to the Catholic church. I would go to the Baptist
church. I would go to the Jewish faith. I went to all of them, and I
didn't find anything that really satisfied me. I always believed in God.
Then, when I went to a fireside for the Bahá'í faith—
-
WHITE
- That's where you found your place.
-
NICHOLAS
- That's when I found it.
-
WHITE
- It spoke to you in a very personal way.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes, that's when I found it. I always believed in all the faiths, but it
really didn't satisfy me, because I didn't like the people, the way they
acted when they would go to church. At Easter time, I didn't like what
was going on. Everybody would be at the church in their beautiful
outfits, and it seemed as though [they] would come in and come in late,
and just go down the aisle so they could see their outfit, the ladies
and the guys just looking around. They couldn't find a seat, so they
went down front.
-
WHITE
- It was like a fashion show.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. Everybody could see them. I said, "What is this?" Just like you
said, a fashion show. That's what it looked like. So I say, when you go
to church, you go there to worship God. You're not going there to show
you have this lovely outfit on. That's not the way. No.
-
WHITE
- Well, tell me something. Was there a certain point in time when you
stopped going to church with your mother, to the Methodist church, when
you were younger?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yeah. I stopped, myself. I said, "Mother, you go by yourself. I'm
tired."
-
WHITE
- Do you remember how old you were approximately at that time?
-
NICHOLAS
- No, I don't remember exactly. I was quite young.
-
WHITE
- Adolescent? Ten, twelve, something in there—?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, something around there. That age, I think, because when I was in
Baltimore, Maryland, I went to a Catholic school and we'd always to go
church.
-
WHITE
- To Mass.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, to the Mass. The priest was there. He was dressed in his wonderful
outfit and he's going around with something in his hand and he's dressed
like that, blessing everybody. There were pictures on the wall all
around the church and he would go from one to the other—when Jesus
Christ is carrying the cross. He'd go to each one of them. There would
be a couple of boys behind him to make sure his robe wouldn't get caught
in anything. We were always getting on our knees. Oh, my knees were so
sore. Oh, my goodness. I'd say, "I'll be glad when this is over!"
-
WHITE
- Did you feel a bit of discomfort in that faith? Do you remember feeling
uncomfortable there?
-
NICHOLAS
- Only with the knees. Only on my knees.
-
WHITE
- Only with the knees.
-
NICHOLAS
- I liked what was going on, because that priest put on a good show.
-
WHITE
- Did he? [laughs]
-
NICHOLAS
- I was going to give him a hand. The nuns— Oh, they liked me. The nuns
really liked me because— I remember one afternoon I took my little
brother to the school and the nuns, they met me there and I said, "Good
afternoon, sisters," and I took my cap off. Then my little brother, he
saw what I did, so he took his cap off. He was acting like his big
brother. All of the nuns said, "Isn't that cute that the little brother
is doing like his big brother?" So they were crazy about me, the nuns
there. It's wonderful that, thinking about prejudice, I never knew
anything about prejudice until I worked in the Cotton Club, because I
went to all integrated schools.
-
WHITE
- That Catholic school, was it integrated?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes. The Catholic school was integrated. They had black nuns, white
nuns, Chinese nuns. It was all integrated. And there were the kids, all
different colors and races. So it was wonderful.
-
WHITE
- Did you ever go back to the Catholic church after you guys moved from
Baltimore?
-
NICHOLAS
- No, I didn't.
-
WHITE
- You didn't after you left the school.
-
NICHOLAS
- No, I didn't. The only time I would probably go to a Catholic church is
if I were going to do some kind of special show for them.
-
WHITE
- I see.
-
NICHOLAS
- Then I'd go like that, but I wasn't there to really worship anything. It
was like a benefit, something like that.
-
WHITE
- So basically your interaction with the church was then—
-
NICHOLAS
- To raise money and it could be with any religion. If it was for a worthy
cause I would go to raise money for the church or the synagogue.
-
WHITE
- So the Methodist church, once you guys moved to Philadelphia— That was
where you practiced your faith with your mother.
-
NICHOLAS
- With my mother.
-
WHITE
- Was Harold born then? Would he go with you? He would be very young.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, very young. I don't remember him going to church. He was very
young.
-
WHITE
- After you stopped going to the Methodist church, did you go to church as
a young person, as a teenager, as an adolescent?
-
NICHOLAS
- No.
-
WHITE
- You didn't? As a young adult?
-
NICHOLAS
- No, because I told you I was still searching.
-
WHITE
- I see. Sure.
-
NICHOLAS
- I just didn't like the way the people were acting. You go to church,
like I said before, to worship God. You don't go there to show how you
have the best outfit of anybody. I didn't like that, and I didn't like
the preacher saying that we're all sinners.
-
WHITE
- Right. I can appreciate that.
-
NICHOLAS
- I didn't like that. I wanted him to say how we can love each other and
lead a wonderful life. He was just saying we were hypocrites.
-
WHITE
- They didn't really speak to you personally, the churches at that time
when you were growing up and in your young adulthood. I can understand
that.
-
NICHOLAS
- I didn't like that. I didn't like that. So I hated going to church.
Saying I'm a sinner and all that? Going to hell? What's going on! I'd
say, "Tell me how I can be a better man and go to heaven."
-
WHITE
- Right. So tell me something— I want to go back and revisit a couple of
things from our last interview. We've been talking a little bit about
your childhood. There are a couple of things that I had questions about.
Can you actually remember or recall when your parents got married? Do
you know when their anniversary would have been?
-
NICHOLAS
- Can I recall when they got married? Oh, gee. I don't know when— Because
I wasn't born! [laughs]
-
WHITE
- I just wondered if they celebrated their anniversary.
-
NICHOLAS
- I don't recall when they did. All I know is that they were in show
business and I would go to the theater all the time. That I knew.
-
WHITE
- I see. Now, outside of the theater— I know they performed at a number of
theaters— Were they involved in the community outside the theater from
what you can recall?
-
NICHOLAS
- With people?
-
WHITE
- Yes, or with organizations or did they have any sort of political
affiliation or anything like that?
-
NICHOLAS
- No. I don't recall. I just know that it was always show business, always
show business and we were traveling so much from city to city. I was
going to school in these different cities. They were in the theater.
They would come to the apartment. They were wonderful parents,
wonderful. They us right from wrong and all the things that other kids
were doing, I didn't want to do.
-
WHITE
- Right. We talked about that.
-
NICHOLAS
- I didn't want to be in gangs and all that.
-
WHITE
- They were very good influences on you.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, they were. They were wonderful, and they always kept us looking
neat.
-
WHITE
- So tell me something now. In the late teens, of course, World War I was
going on. Do you recall if your father was drafted or anything like
that?
-
NICHOLAS
- No, he wasn't. No, he wasn't there.
-
WHITE
- He never went to the war.
-
NICHOLAS
- No, he never did.
-
WHITE
- Now, in the 1920s, how would you describe your family's economic status?
Would you say middle class? Lower middle class? In terms of just the
socioeconomic status.
-
NICHOLAS
- I guess it was middle class or whatever. They weren't millionaires or
anything like that! Wherever they would go, they fitted in. They were
college graduates.
-
WHITE
- Right. Do you know what college they attended?
-
NICHOLAS
- No. It was in Alabama. So it must have been Alabama—
-
WHITE
- They were only a few there, particularly for African Americans at that
point in time.
-
NICHOLAS
- I don't know.
-
WHITE
- You mentioned school, of course, a moment ago. There are a couple of
additional questions that I just wanted to ask you about your school
experience. You said that when you were at school, in the various
schools, that you tended to be quite popular and the students were very
welcoming and at one point you were even referred to as Rudolph
Valentino. [Nicholas laughs] Now, tell me, the social activities must
have been pretty prominent for you there, but I wonder what kind of
academic student you were. What kinds of grades did you receive?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, I was a good student.
-
WHITE
- Yes?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. But, I always wanted to make the kids laugh.
-
WHITE
- Oh, really?
-
NICHOLAS
- And the teachers didn't like that. I was good in my studies, but that's
what happened with me. I remember there was a teacher [who] was always
after me about— "Fayard, straighten up! Sit in your seat and be a nice
boy. Stop making the kids laugh." But I always wanted to have fun. And I
had good marks in everything and she failed me.
-
WHITE
- Oh, no!
-
NICHOLAS
- Just because of my laughter and making the kids laugh. And I got better
grades than the ones she passed.
-
WHITE
- My goodness. Do you recall what subject that was in?
-
NICHOLAS
- I was doing all the subjects, all of them, all the subjects: arithmetic,
English, you name it.
-
WHITE
- But she failed you in one particular subject?
-
NICHOLAS
- No, she just failed me.
-
WHITE
- Oh, completely.
-
NICHOLAS
- Completely, and it was because of that and all the kids knew that. They
said, "Why did she fail you? Look at so-and-so, he wasn't as smart as
you and she passed him." Then other things that she wanted me to do— I
could write better than anyone else. So she'd have me write on the
blackboard, because I could write real straight and they could
understand it because I was good in penmanship. So I could write with
the chalk on the blackboard. I did that well. Then she would have me
draw different things because I would draw. She said, "Would you draw
this for me?" So I'd copy it and draw it. She said, "Oh, that's
wonderful, Fayard. It looks just like that picture." So I did all those
things, but because of my laughter—
-
WHITE
- Right. Because of your sense of humor.
-
NICHOLAS
- My sense of humor.
-
WHITE
- Do you recall this teacher's name?
-
NICHOLAS
- No! [mutual laughter]
-
WHITE
- By design you wanted to forget her name.
-
NICHOLAS
- Way back in the twenties? And this is the year 2000? I don't remember
that!
-
WHITE
- Absolutely.
-
NICHOLAS
- What I should have done was to have a diary and write everything down,
because now I'm just remembering things that have occurred.
-
WHITE
- You have a very good memory, though, for the most part. You really do.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, I do pretty good. It's a funny thing— When my brother and I are on
talk shows, he may be sitting next to the host. I'm on the other side.
The host will look at him and say, "So-and-so and so-and-so." My brother
will say, "Ask my brother that. I don't remember what you just asked
me." So I have to answer the best way I can when the host will ask me
different questions. My brother, he'll come in when he remembers
something.
-
WHITE
- Now, tell me, in school during this period of time, did you have a
favorite subject? Was there something that you liked a bit more than the
others?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, arithmetic.
-
WHITE
- Arithmetic.
-
NICHOLAS
- I remember I went to a school the first day— I was one of the new ones,
and the teacher was doing some kind of example on the blackboard for the
children and I looked at it and said, "I can do that." She asked
everybody, "Did you understand what I just did?" I said, "I did." She
said, "Oh, well come on up here." So I went up there and went over
everything. I said, "There." She said, "Yeah, that's correct. You're
good, and you just got here."
-
WHITE
- A real aptitude for math.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, I was pretty good. I remember numbers, I remember telephone
numbers. I can't remember names. What is your name? [mutual laughter]
What is it, Damita Jo?
-
WHITE
- Damita Jo!
-
NICHOLAS
- Is it Damita? No, it's not. No, you're White, aren't you?
-
WHITE
- Yes. Renee White.
-
NICHOLAS
- You're white? Are you kidding? [mutual laughter] Oh, my goodness! I
shouldn't have said that!
-
WHITE
- That's okay. That's perfectly fine. So you were a math whiz so to speak
in school.
-
NICHOLAS
- So to speak, yes. I learned Catherine Hopkins's telephone number right
away.
-
WHITE
- I'm sure you did.
-
NICHOLAS
- Numbers around here I remember, but I can't remember names. Isn't that
crazy?
-
WHITE
- No, not at all. We often have one skill better than another.
-
NICHOLAS
- I remember your face, but when you think about names— I can remember I
would be at some kind of party here in Los Angeles and people would come
up to me— "Hello, Fayard. How are you doin'? Glad to see you." And this
person just came up. He knows my name; I don't know his name. I don't
know. They'd start talking to me, "Do you remember?" "Yes, I remember
that. Yes, I do." Then, another guy would come over— "Hello, Fayard. How
are you doin'?" I can't remember his name. He knows me. I said, "Excuse
me, guys. I have an appointment over here. You introduce each other.
I'll see you later."
-
WHITE
- That's a very smooth way to get out of it. After all, you've met just
hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people.
-
NICHOLAS
- I have met so many people all over the world. I can remember people in
show business, like Carmen Miranda and all the people I've worked with:
Alice Faye and Betty Grable, John Payne and Milton Berle— names like
that that I see all the time. See all the time. It's before me. But when
I meet someone for the first time, I will forget their names right at
that moment.
-
WHITE
- That's understandable. I know a number of people like that who are very
proficient in math. It's a right brain-left brain kind of phenomenon, so
to speak. I'd like to talk a little bit more— You mentioned that when
you were in school, you used to perform in school plays and school
benefits. I wonder if you can recall any of those experiences, what that
was like. Were you in a drama club or anything like that?
-
NICHOLAS
- When I did the plays in the schools I used to play Santa Claus.
-
WHITE
- Did you?
-
NICHOLAS
- Put a big pillow right in front of me, with the beard and everything. I
used to do plays like that in school. I used to do benefits in theaters
in Philadelphia. I used to do things like that at the Royal Theater in
Philadelphia and the Lincoln Theater in Philadelphia.
-
WHITE
- But these were not affiliated with your school experience. Not the
Lincoln Theater, those kinds of benefits. I'm just referring to the
school plays and things like that. Do you recall having acting parts or
would you dance in some of the plays?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yeah, acting parts.
-
WHITE
- Acting parts.
-
NICHOLAS
- I was always an actor. Before I could dance I was an actor. It's like
this— I learned this from a great director. His name was Rouben
Mamoulian. He was from Russia. He directed a lot of movies with Greta
Garbo.
-
WHITE
- Yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- He was directing the musical drama that we did called St. Louis Woman. Do you remember that? The
song from that show, "Come Rain or Come Shine"?
-
WHITE
- Yes, I do.
-
NICHOLAS
- [Sings] "I'm gonna to love you like nobody's loved you, come rain or
come shine." We were rehearsing the show one day and he said, "I'm
stopping rehearsal now. I want all of you to get chairs and sit down. I
just want to talk to you." He was good. He said, "I want to tell you
that you are all actors." He says, "I don't care what you do. You sing,
you dance and you have lines in the show? You're acting. Dancing? You're
acting. Singing, you're acting. Doing lines in the show, you're acting.
If you're a juggler you're acting. If you're a musician, you play the
horn, you're acting. When you're on that stage that's what you are
doing, because when you are singing you feel the lyrics and when you say
"love"— The expression comes into your face when you say that. When
you're dancing, you're selling the dance and you want the audience to
like you. You like what you're doing and you express yourself with your
dance, your smile on your face. You're acting. Now, you wouldn't do that
if you're walking down the street. You wouldn't sing or dance in the
street, but when you're on that stage, that's what you're doing. You're
acting. I don't care what you do. If you're a juggler, if you're
a—sleight of hand [artist], you are acting. When you hit that stage and
you're in front of an audience, you're acting. You are an actor. I want
all of you to remember that. Just because maybe you're out there dancing
and you don't have anything to say, you're expressing yourself in your
dance. You're acting." I liked when he said that because he gave a lot
of them confidence. So I liked what he said, but, like I said, I've
always been an actor. In St. Louis Woman,
my brother and I were the main characters in that show. We were the
stars of that show. He played the part of Little Augie, a jockey, and I
was Barney, a rival jockey. So we had lines in the show. We were the
stars, so we were all through the show. Ruby Hill was my brother's
girlfriend and she was the "St. Louis Woman." Pearl Bailey was my
girlfriend.
-
WHITE
- Is that so?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes.
-
WHITE
- Where did this performance take place?
-
NICHOLAS
- In New York City at the Martin Beck Theatre.
-
WHITE
- I see.
-
NICHOLAS
- That was in 1946.
-
WHITE
- Okay. That was a little later on in your career.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, that was later on,1946 that we did this musical drama play, and we
had a ball.
-
WHITE
- I'm sure. It must have been fascinating, just the people you were
working with.
-
NICHOLAS
- It was fascinating. Yes.
-
WHITE
- Now, tell me something. Do you recall when you stopped attending school
formally? I know you did get a tutor. Your parents got that for you.
-
NICHOLAS
- I stopped school— It was in Philadelphia. First I went to the Stanley
School and then there was another school called— Oh, what was the name
of that school? It was near where we lived. We stayed at the Gibson
Apartments. I think the name of the school was the name of the street we
stayed on and I could walk to the school. Lombard, I think, is the name
of it. The Lombard Junior High School. I only went to the eighth grade.
When I got into show business, that's when I stopped going to school and
then that's when we had a tutor.
-
WHITE
- Do you remember your tutor's name?
-
NICHOLAS
- No. I don't remember.
-
WHITE
- Did you have one continuous tutor or did they change?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, I changed. Different tutors. The one who would— I think I had
about three. One who could travel with us and the one who was right
there in New York, for when we went to the Cotton Club. We were at the
Cotton Club for two years straight.
-
WHITE
- From '32 to '34.
-
NICHOLAS
- Something like that. Yeah. Then we would come out here to do a motion
picture and then go back to the Cotton Club.
-
WHITE
- When you came out here to do the motion pictures, would the tutor follow
you? While you were on the set?
-
NICHOLAS
- Let me see. Yes. She would always come to our apartment. The only time
she would be at the theater is when we would invite her, if she wanted
to see the show, but she would always come to our apartment to teach us.
We stayed at the— It was 321 Edgecomb Avenue, the Park Lincoln. That's
where she would come. Mother would wake us up like three o'clock in the
afternoon to get our lessons and after the lessons we'd go back to bed.
-
WHITE
- At this time she was tutoring, of course, you and Harold. Dorothy, then,
was attending school, a traditional school?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes. She went to Howard University.
-
WHITE
- Oh, she did?
-
NICHOLAS
- In Washington, D.C.
-
WHITE
- Good for her.
-
NICHOLAS
- She's the only one of the family with a diploma—I mean as far as the
kids are concerned, because my mother and father got their degree in
Alabama. She got hers.
-
WHITE
- Did she attend some of those schools that you left, like the Stanley
School? Was she in those schools after that?
-
NICHOLAS
- I think she was.
-
WHITE
- The neighborhood schools, more or less.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah.
1.4. TAPE NUMBER: II, SIDE TWO
APRIL 20, 2000
-
WHITE
- I wanted to talk about your training. It's my understanding that most
white kids at the time when you were growing up would take formal
lessons in studios, but more often than not African Americans couldn't
necessarily afford those same types of lessons.
-
NICHOLAS
- I saved a lot of money, because I taught myself. So I didn't have to
worry about getting someone to teach me, because if I had gone to a
dancing school with a teacher I wouldn't be doing me. I wouldn't be
doing Fayard Nicholas. I'd be doing him or her. So I taught myself and
then later on I created the Nicholas Brothers style, see, because at the
beginning I would see all of these entertainers on stage while my mother
and father played in the orchestra pit, she playing the piano and he
playing the drums. I'd listen to them play and watch the entertainers on
stage. I'd go home and try to do what I saw them do.
-
WHITE
- For instance, whom did you see on stage?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, I saw a lot of dancers. I saw Leonard Reed and Willie Bryant. I saw
the Berry Brothers [Ananias, Jimmy, and Warren Berry]. I saw Buck and
Bubbles [Ford Lee Washington and John William Sublett]. I saw Louis
Armstrong when he was there, Adelaide Hall, all of these wonderful
entertainers.
-
WHITE
- Did you see Bill "Bojangles" Robinson?
-
NICHOLAS
- I saw him at a benefit that they gave at the Lincoln Theater in
Philadelphia and I had heard so much about him. He was the world's
greatest tap dancer. So I wanted to see him. I never saw him before. So
I went to this theater and it was time for him to come on stage. So he
came out and right away he started talking about what was going on
backstage. He had had an argument with a lot of the people backstage. He
said he told them off. I didn't want to hear that. Come on! Do
something! So right away he said he wasn't feeling well. He'd just had
four teeth extracted, and he said, "but I'm going to entertain you the
best way I can." So he started to go into his dance and he didn't
impress me at all.
-
WHITE
- Really?
-
NICHOLAS
- Not at all. And I say, "Whew! Was that the great Bill Robinson I've been
hearing about?" Now, when I saw him in a motion picture at one of the
theaters in Philadelphia, he was dancing down these stairs. It seemed
like it was one hundred, because it was way, way up. He was up on the
platform. Then he danced down the stairs. And he didn't miss one of
them. Every one of them he danced down. He got down to the stage and he
did something like this— [Does the "shave and a haircut" beat] Dop
duhduh duh duh, dop dop. I said, "That's the Bill Robinson I've been
hearing about."
-
WHITE
- I see. So it was apparent that he wasn't feeling well that one time you
saw him.
-
NICHOLAS
- He wasn't feeling well. And so when I saw him in that movie— Oh, wow!
And his taps were so clear—so clear—and he used wooden soles and wooden
heels. He didn't wear taps. It was such a beautiful sound. Then,
whenever I would hear him on the radio, when he was tap-dancing on the
radio, it sounded so great, so great. And I'd say, "He truly is the
world's greatest tap dancer."
-
WHITE
- Now, did you incorporate any of his style, any of his techniques into
your work?
-
NICHOLAS
- No. No.
-
WHITE
- None whatsoever.
-
NICHOLAS
- I remember he liked us right away. He liked us so much he sort of
adopted us and called us his nephews. So we called him Uncle Bill. He
taught us one of his soft-shoe dances.
-
WHITE
- Can you describe a soft-shoe dance?
-
NICHOLAS
- The way he did it?
-
WHITE
- The soft-shoe dance in general.
-
NICHOLAS
- It's a soft-shoe dance. It's his own soft-[soled] shoes [without taps].
There are many dancers who do a soft-shoe dance, but they didn't do it
like him. He had his own style. So he taught it to us. He taught us his
soft-shoe. We went to Capezio's [shop] and he had them make up shoes
with the wooden soles and the wooden heels. So if we would do something
like a benefit at the Waldorf-Astoria [Hotel] in New York or the Madison
Square Garden, a big benefit, he would have us to go there with him and
we would do this soft-shoe dance that he taught us. But that evening at
the Cotton Club we were still wearing these shoes and we'd do those
splits, and those soles would come off.
-
WHITE
- Oh, my.
-
NICHOLAS
- Those shoes weren't for the type of dancing that we did. So we went back
to the taps.
-
WHITE
- Is it primarily because of the wooden sole that it's called the
soft-shoe tap or is there a certain technique that goes along with that
particular style?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, those shoes are great for Bill Robinson, because he— Naturally, he
didn't do any splits. He didn't do anything where he would be pounding
his feet heavy or anything. He had a technique with his dancing. He had
a great personality when he performed, and it suited him. It was him. It
was such a beautiful sound with those wooden soles, but it wasn't good
for us. As long as we were just tapping, it was fine, but when we did
those splits, they would come off because it was catching on the floor.
-
WHITE
- Of course, that phrase actually originated with him—the soft-shoe tap.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yeah. Then he did his other type of dancing, besides the soft-shoe.
-
WHITE
- So, tell me now, when you were at the Standard Theatre and you saw so
many performers, just a plethora of talented people, was there one or
two that really stood out in your mind from that period of time? When
you were a young man sitting in the first row observing all of these
talented people?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, Buck and Bubbles. They were the ones that I really enjoyed,
because they did everything. They were comedians. They would sing,
dance, play the piano— A very versatile act, and told some really funny
jokes.
-
WHITE
- So the fact that they were really multi-talented made an impression upon
you.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, they made a big impression on me. When I saw Louis Armstrong— He
made a big impression on me because he had just had this hit record
called "[When it's] Sleepy Time Down South." It was a big hit record for
him. I think it was on Okeh records that he recorded for. I'm sitting
there and I want to hear him sing "Sleepy Time Down South," and I was
close to my mother—she sat at the piano. I say, [whispers] "Is he going
to sing "Sleepy Time Down South"? She says, [whispers] "Yes. Yes, he
will. He will sing it." Then he went into the song "Sleepy Time Down
South," and I was happy then [mutual laughter] because I would hear this
record on the radio. He's in person? I want to hear that song from Louis
Armstrong.
-
WHITE
- Sure. I'm sure everyone probably agreed with you.
-
NICHOLAS
- Everybody else wanted to hear it too. It seems as though I just couldn't
wait.
-
WHITE
- You were anxious to hear it.
-
NICHOLAS
- I think that was the last song. The big hit is usually one they would
sing last, when you have a hit record, but I wanted— "Sing it now!"
-
WHITE
- So you watched these talented performers and I guess formulated in your
mind the kind of style that you wanted to originate. Now, when you would
go home, just in looking at some of your archival records— There were
some notes in there that said that—
-
NICHOLAS
- What'd they say? What'd they say?
-
WHITE
- —that in order to hone your skills, you would do acrobatics to clown for
the kids in the neighborhood and you would jump over fire hydrants and
hedges to do flips.
-
NICHOLAS
- I would do that. I must have been crazy.
-
WHITE
- No kidding.
-
NICHOLAS
- I don't know. But I didn't hurt myself. I guess because I tried to do it
the correct way.
-
WHITE
- Sure. You had a certain style. I know that your dad, of course, was very
influential in that he encouraged you to use your hands.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, because he saw me using my hands. So he said, "Do more of that. I
like that, what you're doing." So I did more of that, because I liked
when he first said to me, "What you do son, you do it well, but don't do
what the other dancers do. Do your own thing." I said, "Okay, Dad." He
said, "When you're performing, don't look at your feet. Look at the
audience because you're entertaining them, not yourself." I said, "Okay,
Dad." He said, "There's something that you do I like very much. I like
the way you use your hands. Do more of that." I said, "Okay dad." So, I
started doing it. Then, I went to one of these studios, dance studios
and I rented a room—me, all by myself with a record player and with all
the mirrors. I'm watching myself as I'm performing and I say, "That's
what my dad's talking about," because I didn't know how I looked. Then,
I could see what he was saying about me—with the hands. "Uh huh. Yeah,
I'm going to do more of that. And I'll teach my little brother."
-
WHITE
- Okay. To do the same thing.
-
NICHOLAS
- Was there a point in time when you came home, or came home from the
studio or from the theater, and decided, "Today, I want to teach my
brother and my sister to learn tap." Was there an occasion of sorts?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes, I did get together with them. There was one day my brother couldn't
get a certain step. He was having trouble. I said, "We'll do it
tomorrow." He said, "No, I want to learn it now." I said, "Listen to me.
You're having trouble. We'll do it tomorrow." He said, "No, I want to
learn it now." I said, "Okay." So I started teaching him again. It must
have been an hour more. He finally got it and he kept it. He never did
lose it. So he was, I'd like to say, my best pupil. Sometimes my
brother— I'll say that on talk shows, on television or radio, and he'll
say, "I was your only pupil."
-
WHITE
- What about your sister Dorothy at one point?
-
NICHOLAS
- Right, right, I was teaching her. She was good. She could learn. So we
got together and then we called ourselves the Nicholas Kids. I remember
we worked at the Royal Theater in Baltimore, Maryland, the three of us.
So we had special costumes that my mother made for us—silk blouses. They
loved us. The audience loved us, but I think I told you before that my
sister couldn't keep the late hours.
-
WHITE
- Right. Right after this performance, she decided that was enough.
-
NICHOLAS
- That was it. Nine o'clock, she's had it. So I told her to go on to
school, get her education. We'd put her through school. We'd do the work
and so that's what happened.
-
WHITE
- Now at that time did you have actually have names for your routines?
-
NICHOLAS
- No.
-
WHITE
- None whatsoever.
-
NICHOLAS
- No. I didn't have any names for the steps. I don't count. I never did
count, because if I counted it would mess me up. Counting and trying to
do the routines— No, I never did that. I found out another good friend
of mine was the same way—Eleanor Powell. We were over to one of her
proteges' house. We were celebrating her birthday. He made his garage
into a theater, like a theater. He would show film clips of every dancer
you could think of. It was during the time of Eleanor Powell's birthday.
So we would go to this garage and watch the film clips. It was so
wonderful. She was sitting right beside me. He was showing all the
different dancers. Then, there come the Nicholas Brothers. She's looking
at it, and she was holding my hand real tight. She said, "Did you see
that?" I said, "Yes, Eleanor, I saw it." She said, "Wait a minute.
What's this?" Like I never saw it before. "Yeah, I'm looking, Eleanor.
Yes." She said, "Well, what about this?" She was enjoying it and just
having fun as we were looking. She said, "One day, I would like to do a
Nicholas Brothers concert where we show all the movies and I would talk
about it." I said, "Hey, that's great, Eleanor. I'd like to do it with
you," I told her. Then, when we came back into the house, they had the
cake with all the candles and she would blow them and we'd wish her a
happy birthday. Then we would sit down and start reminiscing. I said,
"Eleanor, when I dance, I don't count. I never did." She said, "I don't
count either." I said, "Wow. Hey, we've got something in common, don't
we, Eleanor?" And I said, "Eleanor, the steps that I do, I don't have
any names for them. I just do them."
-
WHITE
- That's fascinating.
-
NICHOLAS
- She said, "Yeah, me too. I don't have any names. I just do the steps." I
said, "Wow, we really have something in common."
-
WHITE
- Now, how did you train your brother? Would you just do a routine and he
would mimic you?
-
NICHOLAS
- I would just sing the steps. I don't count them. I just sing like
[sings] "baba, daba, boo boo." So when I'd say that, I'd do it with my
feet.
-
WHITE
- I see. Okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- I don't count.
-
WHITE
- That's a unique style for training.
-
NICHOLAS
- Then I said to Eleanor, "Tell me about that film that you made with Fred
Astaire, The Broadway Melody of 1940." She
said, "Oh, Fayard, I had a wonderful time doing that film with Fred.
After we finished the film and we were all going our separate ways, I
was sitting in a chair taking off my tap shoes. I saw Fred in a corner
all by himself with his arms folded like this, and he was looking at me.
So I looked at him and I said, 'Come here. Come on over here.' I said,
'Fred, I had a wonderful time doing this film with you.' He said, 'Yes,
Eleanor, I had a great time too. But, Eleanor, I don't want to work with
you anymore.'" She said, "Why not? Didn't we have a great time?" He
said, "Yes, we did have a great time, but Eleanor, I don't want to work
with you anymore because you work me too hard."
-
WHITE
- Oh, really!
-
NICHOLAS
- Because when Fred is dancing with Ginger Rogers, Cyd Charisse, or Rita
Hayworth, any of those girls, they're following him, but Eleanor doesn't
have to follow him. He might be following her!
-
WHITE
- Ah, gave him a little run for his money.
-
NICHOLAS
- If you see that film, I've never seen him work that hard before, because
he's so smooth with Ginger Rogers, but with Eleanor, he had to get right
in there. He said, "I'm not going to let this girl outdance me."
-
WHITE
- There was a little competition there.
-
NICHOLAS
- She worked the hell out of him. And they look good together. Did you see
that film?
-
WHITE
- I didn't see it.
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, go rent that. Broadway Melody of
1940, starring Fred Astaire and Eleanor Powell.
-
WHITE
- Okay. So was that in fact the last film that they did together?
-
NICHOLAS
- It's the only film they did together.
-
WHITE
- That's the only one. Okay, he meant that, then.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah! [mutual laughter] He did a lot of films with Ginger Rogers, and I
think he did a couple with Cyd Charisse and two with Rita Hayworth.
-
WHITE
- Interesting, interesting, the whole concept of developing one's style
and how you watch other people and determine what it is that you want to
incorporate into your work of art and then the way in which you train
others. It's fascinating.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes. [laughs]
-
WHITE
- Now, during the 1920s— We're still sort of in that time period.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, we're going back to the twenties!
-
WHITE
- Yeah, sure. Tap had arrived on Broadway and black musicals such as
Shuffle Along. Also, I understand that
it thrived in almost completely a black world, from what my literature
says. My research says that it was very prevalent on sort of ghetto
street corners and in colored theaters such as the Hoofers Club
[Nicholas laughs] which I understand was a paradise for Harlem tap
dancing.
-
NICHOLAS
- I never did go to the Hoofers Club.
-
WHITE
- You never did?
-
NICHOLAS
- Never did, no. I was very young at that time. My parents were always
with us and never thought about taking us there. We were working at the
Lafayette Theatre and the Hoofers Club was in the basement underneath
the Lafayette Theater.
-
WHITE
- Is that so?
-
NICHOLAS
- That's where all the hoofers would go. They'd get together down there
and trade steps. I remember John Bubbles [of Buck and Bubbles] told me
this— He said that he went down there to trade steps with them, and he
said, "They danced me out of that place."
-
WHITE
- Is that right?
-
NICHOLAS
- They danced him out. He said, "Fayard, I got together and I went to my
apartment and I started rehearsing." In those days, most of the dancers
would just dance on their toes. He said, "I created something with my
toes and my heels and it was a rhythm and syncopation and I created
this. Then I went down to that Hoofers Club, and I started dancing and I
danced them out of the place." Everyone said, "What is that, John? What
is this new thing you've brought here? How do you do that?" He said,
"Well, I've been rehearsing, man. This is my creation. I guess you guys
want to learn it. Well, you just try to pick it up, because I'm not
gonna teach you!"
-
WHITE
- Sure. His own style. So, now, the Hoofers, from what I understand— It's
a more restrictive style of tap where, like you said, you concentrate on
your feet with no regard to your body or your hands. Is that correct?
-
NICHOLAS
- Most of the dancers in those days and the dancers of today are like
that, like Savion Glover. He doesn't concentrate on his hands. He'll be
looking at his feet. He might be all bent over. The feet sound
great—great feet—but nothing else is happening.
-
WHITE
- So your parents didn't— Was it that they didn't allow you to go to those
clubs or they felt that that wasn't the proper place for you or you had
no interest in going?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, I didn't ask them or force them, say, "I want to go there,"
nothing like that. I guess they thought that we were too young to go
there because they were all adults and I guess they would be there using
language that we shouldn't hear and smoking and carrying on and maybe
with pot.
-
WHITE
- Marijuana?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. Maybe they'd be doing that down there. So they didn't want me in
that environment.
-
WHITE
- Sure. That makes complete sense, of course. Can you tell me during this
period of time, did you and your brother perform at the Apollo Theater?
-
NICHOLAS
- Many times.
-
WHITE
- You did? Can you describe that experience?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, it was like home because always at the Cotton Club— There are
three places in Manhattan that we always played: the Cotton Club, the
Apollo Theater, and the Roxy Theater downtown. After we made all those
movies at 20th Century-Fox, we'd always headline at the Roxy Theater
downtown. This theater held six thousand people.
-
WHITE
- Right. It's huge.
-
NICHOLAS
- After we would make a movie at 20th Century-Fox, people in New York
would want to see us. They'd want to see us. So we would always headline
at the Roxy Theater. Then we'd headline at the Apollo Theater, too. At
the Cotton Club, we'd always co-star with Cab Calloway.
-
WHITE
- Right. Now this is— You never had an opportunity to perform at the
Apollo Theater prior to your professional career, prior to going to the
Cotton Club. Is that correct?
-
NICHOLAS
- We were at the Cotton Club before the Apollo Theater.
-
WHITE
- Okay. Now, at the time when you were sort of beginning to move into your
professional career, do you recall any other sort of prevalent names
that were going around? Did you have any competitors, so to speak?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, well, there were many, many wonderful dancers. Like I said, the
Berry Brothers, they were there. There was Pops and Louie. There was the
Four Step Brothers, the Charioteers. We had dancers like Bill Bailey and
we had— Oh, gee, wait a minute. There was Teddy Hale. Teddy Hale was a
very, very good dancer. There was Baby Lawrence. There was a team called
the Dunhills. That was a white trio, the Dunhills. Oh, there were many,
many, many wonderful dancers in those days. But the Nicholas Brothers—
We liked all of them, and then you had the ones in the movies, like Fred
Astaire, Gene Kelly, Donald O'Connor, Dan Dailey. Then you had the
ladies, like Eleanor Powell and Ann Miller. There was Dixie Dunbar.
There was Ginger Rogers and Rita Hayworth. They were all great,
wonderful dancers.
-
WHITE
- But none that you felt were sort of competitors, direct competitors with
you and your brother Harold?
-
NICHOLAS
- All of those dancers were crazy about the Nicholas Brothers.
-
WHITE
- Were they?
-
NICHOLAS
- Every one of them. [mutual laughter] They all had their own styles, but
they always wanted to see the Nicholas Brothers because— The Nicholas
Brothers, they wanted [us] to act in movies and dance with Ginger Rogers
or somebody like Ginger Rogers, but because of the color of our skin, we
didn't have that opportunity. But just dancing in those movies—say, five
minutes we'd be on the screen up there all by ourselves—made us famous
all over the world. Wherever we would go, we would headline. There were
some places we'd go. We'd have a big band, and we'd just be only the
Nicholas Brothers, nobody else. Because of our versatility, because we
sang, we danced, we played drums, we'd tell jokes, we'd talk to the
people. We could do a long show like that because we'd take our time and
space it. One time I said, "Brother, go on up there and play the drums.
I'm going to do a little tapping." So he'd get on the drums and he'd go
chichichi chichichi chichichi, and I'd start tapping, just him and me.
He'd catch any beat that I'd make with my feet with this tapping jazz.
Sometimes it would be an hour. We could really stretch it to two hours.
-
WHITE
- Could you really?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah.
-
WHITE
- Wow. That's a long time.
-
NICHOLAS
- That's a long time. Well, you see, we didn't just dance, only dance,
because we'd sing, sing a lot of songs in between, and the people loved
it even though we weren't dancing. They loved the singing. We'd play the
drums. We'd do all these things. I remember telling you that when we
first started, I think it was at the Pearl Theater in Philadelphia and
we were doing dance after dance. The people just wanted more and more
and more. [makes panting sound] We went to our dressing room and I said,
"Man"—to my brother—"something's got to be done. I can't stand this.
Man, I'm getting tired. Let's put some singing in the act." My brother
said, "I'm with you." I said, "Let's talk to the people when we get out
on the stage." So we would always open up with a dance, but not a
strenuous one, just an opening type of dance. Then I would go to the
microphone and say, "Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We're very
happy that you came here to see our show. We're going to entertain you
the best way we can. Right now my brother is going to sing a little
song, and I'm going to conduct the orchestra. I think he's going to sing
"Oh, Lady Be Good!" I said, "Okay boys, here we go. One, a two, a
one-two-three-four," strike up the band and stuff, and I'd do the same
for my brother and he'd go right into [sings] "Oh, sweet and lovely lady
be good!" Now, I'm directing the band. I'm using my hands, my head, my
feet, my buttocks. Now, they're listening to him, but they're watching
me, because of the way I'm doing the directing. It's a big hit every
time we do that.
-
WHITE
- Do you recall the name of the band that you were working with at that
time?
-
NICHOLAS
- There were a lot of bands we worked with. [Earl] "Fatha" Hines, we'd
work with. There was, let me see, the Benny Moten band, which later on
became the Count Basie band. They worked at the Pearl Theater in
Philadelphia. We worked with them. Later on, when we went to New York to
play in the Cotton Club, we worked with Cab Calloway, Duke Ellington,
Jimmie Lunceford, and then in the movies, with Glenn Miller's orchestra.
When we worked at Paramount Theatre in New York City there would be
Tommy Dorsey, Charlie Barnet. We worked with almost all of the big
bands. We worked with all of them— Chick Webb, who discovered Ella
Fitzgerald. We worked with him. We worked with all of them. It was
great.
-
WHITE
- So, tell me now, before you actually went professional, before you went
to the Cotton Club, you've described that one of your main intentions
was to entertain the audience, to make sure that the audience enjoyed
themselves. Prior to going to the Cotton Club, Mr. Nicholas, can you
recall any point in time when you had a bad experience, when the
audience didn't seem satisfied or the show didn't go quite the way you
wanted it?
-
NICHOLAS
- I don't recall that. It seems as though— When we started in show
business, we were in Philadelphia. We worked all the vaudeville
theaters. That was about in the thirties. It was 1930 when we first
started in show business and '31 and '32 we were playing all theaters in
Philadelphia. Those were the vaudeville days. Warner Brothers owned
those theaters at that time. So we played all the Warner Brothers
theaters. Then we played the Standard Theatre, the Lincoln Theater, the
Royal Theater, and the Pearl Theater in Philadelphia. Those theaters
that I just named are supposed to be black theaters.
-
WHITE
- The TOBAs?
-
NICHOLAS
- No, we never did play Toby [Time, the TOBA circuit, Theatrical Owners
and Bookers Association]. This is vaudeville. All the Warner Brothers
theaters— I guess you'd call those the white theaters. So we worked
there. One of our first engagements was in a burlesque theater.
-
WHITE
- Was it really?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. The audience did love— They forgot about those striptease ladies.
They wanted to see these little guys. We stopped the show.
-
WHITE
- You stole the show there as well.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, we stole the show. Oh, it was great. That was one of the first
engagements. And performing on the radio. I think I told you that.
-
WHITE
- Yes, you did. We talked about that.
-
NICHOLAS
-
The Horn and Hardart [Children's Hour]. That was in Philadelphia.
-
WHITE
- So basically your experience performing at all the vaudeville theaters
before you got to the Cotton Club were all positive experiences.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, we had those experiences before the Cotton Club.
-
WHITE
- Right. Of course.
-
NICHOLAS
- Did I tell you when I first went to the Cotton Club, when I first met
Duke Ellington?
-
WHITE
- Right. No, we haven't discussed that.
-
NICHOLAS
- I haven't?
-
WHITE
- No, not yet, but I certainly plan to go to into fine detail on that
experience.
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, this was right when we just finished this movie for Warner
Brothers called Pie Pie Blackbird. We were
in the Lafayette Theatre first. Then we made that film. The manager of
the Cotton Club saw us at the Lafayette Theatre and invited us to come
to the Cotton Club because they were rehearsing a new show starring Cab
Calloway. Our parents took us there. Then we met Duke Ellington. He was
there. We met Cab Calloway, we met Bill Robinson. Lena Horne was there,
but she was one of the dancing girls at that time. We saw this pretty
girl, we saw her sitting there, and she was one of the dancing girls. So
Herman Stark, who was the manager of the Cotton Club who later on became
our manager, said, "Would you do something for everybody?" We said,
"Fine." So we got up on stage. We sang a little song.
-
WHITE
- That was your audition, so to speak.
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, yeah, maybe you'd call it that. But not really, because he saw us
at the Lafayette Theatre. He saw people loved us there. He just wanted
these wonderful entertainers to see us, because they had never seen us
before and he's been raving about us. So we did something and Duke
Ellington said, "These boys are original." I said, "Thank you, Mr.
Ellington. Thank you so much, Mr. Ellington. You're original, too."
Everybody laughed.
1.5. TAPE NUMBER: III, SIDE ONE
MAY 4, 2000
-
WHITE
- I am at the home, the second home, of Mr. Fayard Nicholas in Toluca Lake
today. How are you today, Mr. Nicholas?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, I'm fine. I'm still on my honeymoon with my beautiful wife,
Catherine Hopkins Nicholas.
-
WHITE
- Congratulations to you.
-
NICHOLAS
- Thank you so much.
-
WHITE
- That's wonderful. Well, we've been talking at length the last couple of
interviews about your childhood and we've gone through the 1910s, the
1920s, talked a bit about it. There are a couple of questions that I
wanted to just revisit before we begin the interview for today.
-
NICHOLAS
- What's that?
-
WHITE
- We've talked a lot about your experiences at school and with your mom
[Viola Harden Nicholas] and dad [Ulysses Nicholas]. I wondered if you
had any extended family that was involved in your upbringing—uncles,
aunts.
-
NICHOLAS
- You mean cousins?
-
WHITE
- Cousins, grandparents, things like that, extended family.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, my goodness. I've lost contact with so many people, my relatives,
that is. I can remember one of my cousins in Chicago; his name was
Roland. And also my uncle on my mother's side. This is something else
you're going to have to ask my sister [Dorothy Nicholas Morrow]. I can't
remember his name—my uncle and also my aunt in Chicago and also one of
my cousins in Chicago. The names slip my mind, but I remember Roland. I
remember him because when I first met him he was just a child. I think
it was in the thirties or the forties, because we appeared at the
Oriental Theater in Chicago with Milton Berle. It was in 1934. We were
playing there with Milton. Milton has to get into everybody's act. So he
wrote some lines for us to say with him, some comedy routine that we
were doing. There was a song that my brother [Harold Nicholas] was
singing, where he used to do an impression of Cab Calloway, "Minnie the
Moocher," those types of songs, and then he'd say, "Hi-de-hi-de-ho," and
then we would answer. So Milton was right there in between us answering,
"Hi-de-hide- ho." So we had fun. We had a lot of fun. Those are some of
my relatives that I remember. You may get together with my sister and
she can tell you who my uncle, what his name was, and my aunt, what her
name was, but I remember Roland.
-
WHITE
- Are these relatives on your mom's side or your dad's?
-
NICHOLAS
- It's on my mother's side.
-
WHITE
- On your mother's side. Okay. Right. I know your dad had a brother in New
York City.
-
NICHOLAS
- Clovis [Nicholas].
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- Clovis in New York City.
-
WHITE
- All right. Good. Well, I can follow up on that.
-
NICHOLAS
- There were some other relatives. I've lost touch with them, but I think
my sister can enlighten you on who because there was one lady—I think
she was a cousin or aunt—who visited my sister at her place up there in
Laurel Canyon. She came there with her son. I was there at the time, but
I don't recall their names. So maybe my sister could tell you the names
of those relatives.
-
WHITE
- All right. One other question I had. When I was doing my research in
your archival records you indicated that if you hadn't gone into show
business, that maybe you would have majored in art.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, that's right.
-
WHITE
- I wondered what kind of art. What were you interested in as a young
person?
-
NICHOLAS
- When I was a little boy, I used to try to draw everything. One time I
drew a whole comic paper. I think it was the Katzenjammer Kids. Do you remember them? This was a long
time ago, in the twenties. The Katzenjammer
Kids—two little boys and the father and the mother, and there
was a whole comic strip. So I got me a big [piece of] paper that I could
just copy exactly like it was, the cartoons. Also I would paint with a
brush, watercolors, and paint from a movie magazine, the cover. I think
it was Joan Crawford. I did that. Then I'd try with ink to draw
different things, then with pencil. I was pretty good. It was fun to me
just to draw these things. My sister, she really wanted me to get into
art, painting and drawing these different pictures.
-
WHITE
- Was that one of her interests, art?
-
NICHOLAS
- Her interest? I don't think so. No. She's a college graduate. She was
going to Howard University in Washington, D.C.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- That was her goal, to get her education and get her degree.
-
WHITE
- Right, of course.
-
NICHOLAS
- Which we were proud of because we were always working. We didn't get a
chance to finish school, but we did have a tutor to travel with us. So,
maybe if I wasn't in show business, I might have been an artist. I also
liked architecture, with the drawings of the buildings. It fascinated me
to see this. When I would go to different countries, I would go
sightseeing. I wouldn't just sit in my hotel and just listen to the
radio or watch television or go out to nightclubs and all. I want to see
the country. My brother— he'd go play golf. That's what he wanted, to
find what golf courses [there were] in that country, whatever country,
and I would go sightseeing. In Paris I'd go to the Eiffel Tower, the Arc
de Triomphe. I'd go on this beautiful street, the Champs-Elysées. I'd go
to Napoleon's tomb and all these different places. As I'm walking down
the street wherever it may, I look at the buildings, the architecture of
all these buildings. It's fascinating, like when I was in New York, when
I'd see these really tall buildings that reached to the sky. So when I'd
go to other countries, I wanted to see their architecture. That
fascinated me. I really liked— What's our great architect? Frank Lloyd
[Wright]. He built a building— I think it was in Tokyo, Japan. There was
an earthquake there. It was the only building that didn't get ruined. It
wasn't destroyed. It was still standing there. All the others were
falling. That shows you how great he was with his style of architecture.
That's fascinating. Art, drawing, and architecture all fascinated me.
Like I said, I may have gone into that if I wasn't in show business. But
show business is art, too. [laughs]
-
WHITE
- Absolutely. It's a definite art form.
-
NICHOLAS
- It's an art form, especially tap dancing.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- That's an art form.
-
WHITE
- It certainly is.
-
NICHOLAS
- It was created here in America. I'm happy that I was one who helped
create this art and kept it alive, tap dancing.
-
WHITE
- Absolutely.
-
NICHOLAS
- Everywhere we'd go, people loved it, tap dancing. They were crazy about
it, even when they said it was a dying art, but it was not a dying art,
not by a long shot. Television almost ruined everything because people
would stay home, didn't have to go out and spend a lot of money, could
see whatever they wanted to see on television. It was free.
-
WHITE
- Yes. It diminished social interaction a great deal.
-
NICHOLAS
- At that time, there were no more nightclubs to have entertainers because
people would stay home. If they wanted to see tap dancing, they'd see it
on television.
-
WHITE
- Right. Live theater wasn't as prominent.
-
NICHOLAS
- Television almost ruined everything. Like the Broadway shows. Why should
we spend all that money to go see a Broadway show? We can stay right
here and watch it on television. Movies, it almost killed movies. But
they got together, those movie people.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- We're not going to let television ruin us.
-
WHITE
- That's right.
-
NICHOLAS
- But, like I said, instead of going to see the movie, stay home and watch
it, because it would be on television eventually with these videotapes.
You can go to the Blockbuster and rent it or buy it, bring it home, put
it in your VCR.
-
WHITE
- It's so convenient.
-
NICHOLAS
- I think to rent it must be $2.50, something like that.
-
WHITE
- Up to $4.00 now, actually.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, it's $4.00? Well, that's still cheap, because it costs $8.00 to go
see a movie in the big theaters.
-
WHITE
- Right. $8.50. That's expensive.
-
NICHOLAS
- So that's what's been happening. I like television, but I don't want it
to ruin our art.
-
WHITE
- Right. Art is very important.
-
NICHOLAS
- If there's something I want to see, I will go out and see it, whatever
it may be. Like they're rehearsing for The Lion
King now. You know that, don't you?
-
WHITE
- I understand that your granddaughter [Cathy Nicholas] is auditioning for
it.
-
NICHOLAS
- She's auditioning. They called her back three times. She may get the
part. The Lion King is still running in
Manhattan. It's been there for two years, and it's still going strong.
-
WHITE
- A very successful show.
-
NICHOLAS
- Now they're going to have a Los Angeles company out here. I don't know
if you saw on television that people were in line to buy tickets. The
show is going to open in September until June of the year 2001. They're
buying their tickets now. I guess a lot are buying for June.
-
WHITE
- That's true, and perhaps around the holidays, too. That would be
something very nice to see around Christmas or Thanksgiving or what have
you. Yes, that's absolutely true, in terms of the art form and in terms
of the social interaction that accompanies the visual aspect of live
theater. Tap dance is certainly a profound art form.
-
NICHOLAS
- It's an American art form.
-
WHITE
- Yes, it is. It's the kind of thing where a good tap dancer can tell a
story in sound and rhythm and movement. In fact in some of the
literature I read that your brother Harold describes you as a poet who
speaks with your feet and your hands.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes, I know.
-
WHITE
- How would you describe Harold as a dancer?
-
NICHOLAS
- My brother Harold is the most versatile entertainer in the world. He
does everything. He sings, he dances, he plays drums, he can do
impressions—like Sammy Davis[, Jr.] did, but he did it before Sammy.
-
WHITE
- Did he really?
-
NICHOLAS
- He was just a little boy when he started. He was six years old when I
taught him how to perform. I taught him how to sing like Louie [Louis]
Armstrong, how to sing like Cab Calloway. I taught him how to do all
these difficult steps. He really wanted to learn. He was a true
performer. I don't know if I told you this before. One day we were
rehearsing in our apartment. This was in Philadelphia. In the living
room, I was teaching him steps. He was having trouble getting this step.
So I said, "I see how difficult it is for you to get this step. We'll do
it tomorrow." He said, "No, I want to learn it now."
-
WHITE
- Right. You did tell me this story.
-
NICHOLAS
- Did I tell you that? So that's the way he was. He wanted to learn and do
it the best way he could, because he wanted to be like his big brother.
-
WHITE
- A very disciplined and committed pupil, right? Like he said, he was your
only pupil.
-
NICHOLAS
- My only pupil.
-
WHITE
- Now, in the records it describes you, in terms of your dance style—
You're sort of aligned more with Fred Astaire and Harold more with Gene
Kelly. What do you think of that statement?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, to tell you the truth, we performed and we had this style before
we saw Gene Kelly or Fred Astaire.
-
WHITE
- Okay. So they're more like the two of you.
-
NICHOLAS
- They're more like the Nicholas Brothers. We were in show business a long
time before Gene Kelly. Oh, this is— What do you think? When Gene Kelly
was under contract with Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer, when he first went over
there to do this movie with Judy Garland called— They sang a song in it
[sings], "The bells are ringing for me and my gal." I think that was the
name of the film, For Me and My Gal.
-
WHITE
- Okay, right. I think you're right.
-
NICHOLAS
- That was Gene Kelly's first motion picture, with Judy Garland. They
starred in this movie together. We were in the show Babes in Arms with Mitzi Green. It was in
1937. [Later] we came to Los Angeles to do these different films, and at
the time she was in Los Angeles. She got in touch with us. I think this
was in, maybe, 1940 you might say. She was over at Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer
visiting and she met Gene Kelly. They started talking and she was
telling him about the Nicholas Brothers: "We were in a show together,
Babes in Arms. We became very good
friends." Gene said, "Oh, yes. I want to perform with the Nicholas
Brothers." She said, "Oh, that would be nice, Gene." Then he said, "I
want to tell you that Fayard Nicholas is the only man that dances like
me."
-
WHITE
- Oh, really.
-
NICHOLAS
- Mitzi to herself said, "What does he mean? He means he dances like
Fayard Nicholas."
-
WHITE
- Absolutely. That's interesting.
-
NICHOLAS
- Isn't that interesting?
-
WHITE
- Yeah. Let's see now. I wanted to just go back a little bit. Now, I know
that you indicated that you stopped going to formal school, anyway,
around the eighth grade, and of course you had your tutor.
-
NICHOLAS
- Because we started performing. It was in 1930. I was in school; it was
the eighth grade. That was the last grade that I went to in school.
-
WHITE
- So you were about thirteen or so at that time. Thirteen or fourteen
maybe?
-
NICHOLAS
- Something like that. Yes. My brother was eight, I believe, or something
like that. Is that seven years difference?
-
WHITE
- He would have been seven, and you were fourteen. So you guys had your
tutor. You were actually performing in a number of theaters and that
sort of thing.
-
NICHOLAS
- At the nightclub, the Cotton Club.
-
WHITE
- But you started there in 1932.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah.
-
WHITE
- So what I was trying to get at is, can you just tell me what was going
on between 1930 and 1932? I know you performed at the Standard Theatre.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes, the Standard Theatre. The Pearl Theater.
-
WHITE
- The Pearl Theater.
-
NICHOLAS
- The Lincoln Theatre, the Royal Theater, all in Philadelphia. We worked
in all of the Warner Brothers theaters there in Philadelphia. Now, you
see, the Standard Theatre, the Pearl Theater, the Royal Theater and
Lincoln theaters— They called those the "Black Theaters," because that's
where black managers would run these theaters and there would be mostly
black audiences. Of course white people would come there too when they'd
hear about who was playing there. They wanted to see them. Now, the
Warner Brothers theaters, I guess you'd call those the white theaters.
At that time, Warner Brothers owned these theaters. Naturally, they'd
play all of their motion pictures in these theaters. So the government
got on them or something and said, "You can't do that. You can't own
theaters and show motion pictures too."
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay. It's a monopoly.
-
NICHOLAS
- Like they're making too much money or something like that. It also
happened with Paramount. Paramount had a lot of theaters, too. So they
had to give up their theaters—and 20th Century-Fox.
-
WHITE
- Right. I remember that.
-
NICHOLAS
- We used to always play at the Roxy Theater in New York City. All our
movies played at the Roxy. So they would always have us to appear there
at the Roxy, and we were always headlining, because they saw all our
movies there at the Roxy, like Tin Pan Alley, Down
Argentine Way, and other movies from 20th Century-Fox. So
they always wanted to see the Nicholas Brothers. After each film, they
wanted us to come back, thinking we were going to do on stage what we
did in those movies. No way, especially that Stormy Weather thing. Forget it! But they were happy just
to see us on stage, because we were always there. They could see that we
were enjoying what we were doing. We would talk to them. So they would
forget about Stormy Weather, coming down
those stairs.
-
WHITE
- Yeah, nothing like live theater.
-
NICHOLAS
- Did I tell about when I hurt myself at the Roxy Theater?
-
WHITE
- No, you didn't.
-
NICHOLAS
- I didn't? Well, this was opening day.
-
WHITE
- Approximately what year?
-
NICHOLAS
- It must have been about—let me see—before I went into the army. It must
have 1941 or '42, around then, because I was drafted in 1943. So it was
before that. It was at the Roxy, this big theater, a great theater. They
don't build them like that anymore. It holds six thousand people. It's a
big theater. It's huge, and the stage just goes on and on. This is where
I really can travel, without being pushed in or something like that. So
the manager of the theater got this idea that he was going to have this
orchestra on stage. It seemed like it was one hundred pieces. It was
such a big orchestra, with the violins and the cello and the
vibraphones, the French horns, everything, the trumpets, trombones. It
was a full orchestra. So the orchestra was right in the middle of the
stage, and they had built these stairs on each side of the orchestra.
They wanted to create something like Stormy
Weather, but it wasn't quite. They wanted my brother to go
up one side. He'd dance up, and I'd dance up on the other side of the
steps and we'd get right in the middle of this platform. Now, we're
looking down, and there's the orchestra. So the manager of the theater
said, "Now, fellahs, for a finish, I want you to jump over the orchestra
into a split on the stage."
-
WHITE
- Oh, my goodness!
-
NICHOLAS
- I say, "Wait a minute. Wait one moment." I say to my brother, "Do you
think we can do it?" He says, "Yeah, we can do it." I say, "You know
what we've got to do, don't you? When we jump, we've got to fly over the
orchestra. It's not like—" If the orchestra wasn't there, we'd just go a
little bit and go down, but now we've got to go [makes a noise and
gestures to indicate the outward trajectory] and then go down. Oh,
brother! I say, "Okay." Now, the first day we were rehearsing. I say,
"Okay, on the count of three, we jump." So I say, "One, two—" And I say,
"Wait a minute! Let me think. Let me get my composure. And— All right.
Here we go. One, two, three—" Whooooooooon, over the orchestra, wham! We
come up, rump a tum tum, and we dance off the stage.
-
WHITE
- You actually made it over the orchestra into the splits.
-
NICHOLAS
- We made it into the splits.
-
WHITE
- That's incredible.
-
NICHOLAS
- We were flying. Like Michael Jordan, only more so.
-
WHITE
- Real acrobatics.
-
NICHOLAS
- Really. Yes. So we went to our dressing room, because the orchestra
leader said, "Take five, everybody. We'll come back and rehearse some
more." We went to the dressing room and I said to my brother, "I don't
want to do that anymore. I hurt my heel and if I continue it, the heel
will get worse." So my brother said, "Oh, that's all right. Just let me
do it. When I get up there on the platform and I jump, you bring me down
with your hands. Then, when I come up, you bring me up with your hands,
and then we'll dance off the stage."
-
WHITE
- I see. So you would both jump, but he would do the splits.
-
NICHOLAS
- No. I don't jump.
-
WHITE
- Oh, you don't jump at all.
-
NICHOLAS
- No, I don't jump at all because he said, "I'll jump. You don't have to
do it, since you'll hurt your heel. You're up there on the platform.
When I jump down, when I come down, you bring me down with your hands."
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- See, he's up in the air, and I see him up in the air, and I do like
this. [gestures] He comes up, and I do like that. [gestures] Then we
dance off. So this is the opening day. Six thousand people are there to
watch these Nicholas Brothers do something like Stormy Weather. [mutual laughter]
-
WHITE
- Were you nervous?
-
NICHOLAS
- I used to be very nervous, but when I got older, I wasn't so much
nervous like I used to be when I was younger, because I used to get
sick.
-
WHITE
- Really?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes. I couldn't keep anything on my stomach.
-
WHITE
- Just before you performed.
-
NICHOLAS
- After.
-
WHITE
- Oh, after. Oh, that's interesting.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yeah. Of course, all that jumping and carrying on, it made me sick.
So now he makes this jump and we dance off the stage together. We go to
our dressing room. My brother looked at me and said, "You were right. I
don't want to do that anymore either." [mutual laughter]
-
WHITE
- Did he injure himself also?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. He hurt his heel too, because it was such a high jump from this
platform, and then you've got to push yourself to make that leap over
the orchestra. Now, if we were just going down, maybe we wouldn't have
hurt our heels.
-
WHITE
- That's incredibly dangerous.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes. Well, they thought we could do everything.
-
WHITE
- Of course. [mutual laughter]
-
NICHOLAS
- So we said, "No. We'll still go up the stairs, but we won't do that
jump." So my brother would go up one side, tap-dance up the stairs. I'd
tap-dance up the stairs. We'd meet right in the center of the platform
and cross each other, and stay there and start dancing up there. Tumpa
tumpa tumpa tum. If they think we're going to jump, forget it. Then we'd
dance down the stairs. He'd dance on side, and then we'd meet and then
maybe I would jump over his head into a split. He might go through my
legs in a split, and just maybe go back, all the way back, to where the
band is and do a sliding step, like we're going into the audience, and
finish like that, something like that.
-
WHITE
- That sounds terrific, equally engaging and entertaining.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. Forget about that jump.
-
WHITE
- I guess they thought the Nicholas Brothers were invincible.
-
NICHOLAS
- Right, I guess they did. It would have been nice— We had a movie camera
where we took home movies. My valet would go out into the audience and
tape these home movies of us. He should have been out there the first
show to tape that.
-
WHITE
- Oh, sure. When you guys leaped over the orchestra.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. When we leaped over the orchestra. But he was not there then. He
took us when we were on stage with Carmen Miranda. I think that's in the
biography. Did you see it?
-
WHITE
- I haven't seen it yet, but I'm going to.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, you haven't? Well, we were at the Roxy with Carmen Miranda. This was
another time at the Roxy Theater.
-
WHITE
- Are you speaking of the book by Rusty Frank [Tap!
The Greatest Tap Dance Stars and their Stories, 1900-1955.
New York: William Morrow, 1990] or the newest book, Brotherhood in Rhythm [: The Jazz Tap Dancing of the Nicholas Brothers. Hill,
Constance Valis. New York: Oxford University Press, 2000]?
-
NICHOLAS
- No, I'm speaking about the A&E
Biography [episode, The Nicholas Brothers:
Flying High].
-
WHITE
- Oh, absolutely. I thought you were referring to a book.
-
NICHOLAS
- It was on TV.
-
WHITE
- Yes, I have that tape.
-
NICHOLAS
- You saw us with Carmen Miranda.
-
WHITE
- Yes, I did.
-
NICHOLAS
- So, there's a whole movie that my valet took when we were there with
her, but he forgot to tape us when we were jumping over this damn
orchestra.
-
WHITE
- Oh, no. That would have been something to behold.
-
NICHOLAS
- I would have liked to have seen that myself.
-
WHITE
- I would have liked to have seen that also. It would have been nice for
you to see yourself in action. Yes, I'm sure. Oh, boy. So you've had
some great experiences.
-
NICHOLAS
- That was a great experience. We never did hurt ourselves much, but when
we found out that we were going to injure ourselves, we cut it out,
whatever it might be. It was a thing that this was all we could do and
we had nothing to—what you just might say—substitute, because there are
a lot of times when we'd do shows and we didn't do those splits at all,
but we would entertain the audience and they liked what we did. We were
singing and we were tapdancing, but just didn't do those splits, what
they wanted to see. So we would entertain them in such a way they'd
forget about all that jumping and carrying on, because we are
entertainers. That's what we are really.
-
WHITE
- Not just dancers.
-
NICHOLAS
- Not just dancers.
-
WHITE
- Do you recall if any of the managers responded in an adverse way— Would
they really try to encourage you or make you do those kinds of splits
because you had an agreement or contract with the club?
-
NICHOLAS
- [laughs] No, no, no. There was no type of agreement like that right in
there, that we're going to do those things, no. When we'd show up at the
nightclubs, they would accept the act that we did.
-
WHITE
- Which was bound to be terrific.
-
NICHOLAS
- Did I tell you about when we started performing and we were doing dance
after dance after dance?
-
WHITE
- Right. You decided to add in the singing.
-
NICHOLAS
- Then we added the singing.
-
WHITE
- Yes, you did.
-
NICHOLAS
- I told my brother, "This will never do."
-
WHITE
- Sure. It's exhausting.
-
NICHOLAS
- I said, "I'm glad they like us out there, but I'm getting tired. They're
killing me. They're killing both of us."
-
WHITE
- Encore after encore.
-
NICHOLAS
- Encore after encore. I said, "Come on. Let's put some singing in the
act. Let's talk to the people."
-
WHITE
- That was smart of you. Well, tell me— Let's talk a bit about your entree
into the Cotton Club in Harlem. I know that during our last interview
you spoke briefly about how Herman Stark saw you and your brother at the
Lafayette Theatre and he brought you over to the Cotton Club. It wasn't
an audition per se, but he wanted to show your talent to some of the
people there.
-
NICHOLAS
- It wasn't an audition.
-
WHITE
- Right, and that's when you first met Duke Ellington.
-
NICHOLAS
- That's when we first met Duke Ellington. In fact, all of them were
there, because they were rehearsing the new show starring Cab Calloway.
That's when Cab introduced the song "I've Got the World on a String." It
was in 1932. All the beautiful girls were there, and dancing girls, show
girls, and Lena Horne was one of the dancing girls. Bill Robinson was
there, Duke Ellington, Cab Calloway, Ethel Waters. Clarence Robinson,
who was the choreographer, was there. So Mr. Stark introduced us to
everybody and asked us to perform for them. I think I told you that,
didn't I?
-
WHITE
- Yes, you spoke about it briefly. So you performed in front of all of
these people that you just named?
-
NICHOLAS
- All these people. This was the first time that they ever saw the
Nicholas Brothers—or the Nicholas Kids. They always called us Nicholas
Kids.
-
WHITE
- Do you find it interesting that none of the people that you just
described—Duke Ellington, Cab Calloway, Ethel Waters—none of those
people had actually seen you guys perform at some of the black theaters?
-
NICHOLAS
- No.
-
WHITE
- Prior to your coming to the Cotton Club?
-
NICHOLAS
- They heard all about us.
-
WHITE
- They heard about you.
-
NICHOLAS
- They heard about us. When we were at the Lafayette Theatre, that's when
Louie Armstrong came by to see us.
-
WHITE
- Okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- He came by because he heard that my little brother did an impression of
him. He wanted to see this little guy do him. He came backstage to see
us, and he said, "Hey, gates! [a performer or man] You were terrific."
-
WHITE
- That must have been a real joy for you.
-
NICHOLAS
- He said, "You have the growl just like me, and you're only six years
old."
-
WHITE
- Wow. You must have been very, very fast up.
-
NICHOLAS
- That's how he is. When we performed at the Cotton Club, when they were
rehearsing this new review and we performed for all of them, Duke
Ellington, Bill Robinson, Cab Calloway and Ethel Waters and all of them,
I told you what Duke said, didn't I?
-
WHITE
- Yes, that you guys were original.
-
NICHOLAS
- I told him he was original, too.
-
WHITE
- Do you recall how you felt? Because that was the first time that you
performed before such an astute African American audience.
-
NICHOLAS
- Duke Ellington was always my favorite orchestra, and he had so much
class. He was a bandleader, composer, and he spoke so well when he was
talking. He was educated. He was an educated bandleader, and he wrote
all these wonderful tunes. Have you ever seen this comic strip Ripley's Believe It or Not? Well, he had in
there— Talking about Duke Ellington, he said, "Duke Ellington could sit
at a piano and play every tune he has composed and just play one chorus
of, say, "It Don't Mean a Thing if You Ain't Got That Swing," and then
go right into "Sophisticated Lady"—tune after tune. He said, "He could
sit at that piano for three days and play every tune that he has written
and never stop.
-
WHITE
- Wow. And it would take him three days to do so?
-
NICHOLAS
- It would take him three days. Do you know how many hours that is if he'd
just play each one?
-
WHITE
- That's a long time.
-
NICHOLAS
- That's a long time.
-
WHITE
- That's a wealth of talent.
-
NICHOLAS
- Then he'd say, "Believe it or not!" [laughs]
-
WHITE
- Do you recall after performing for them— Of course, they really enjoyed
it and they were very complimentary of you and your brother. What
happened from that point? Were you hired to perform there?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yeah. Well, Herman Stark made up his mind right away.
-
WHITE
- Right away. Okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- When he saw us at the Lafayette Theatre, we were hired. He just wanted
everybody to see us, because they'd heard about us but they'd never seen
us. So he wanted them to see what he saw.
-
WHITE
- Very smart gentleman.
-
NICHOLAS
- So he became our manager.
-
WHITE
- Okay. From that point forward.
-
NICHOLAS
- From that point on— Of course, my mother and father [Ulysses Nicholas],
they were still with us all the time.
-
WHITE
- So you were approximately eighteen and I guess your brother was eleven
in 1932.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, I guess so. Would you say that?
-
WHITE
- Yes. That's how I would calculate that, give or take a month or two,
depending upon what month you actually opened at the club.
-
NICHOLAS
- I don't remember the month.
-
WHITE
- Okay. Do you remember the first evening you opened, how you felt when
you and your brother were preparing at home? What was the feeling that
you had? You were getting ready to perform in one of the most popular
clubs in America. Can you describe your feelings?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, we felt great because we'd see all these wonderful movie stars
that would come there, Broadway stars. We were there entertaining them
and we liked that. We felt so good that they liked what we were doing.
We were on that stage to entertain. We enjoyed it, we wanted the
audience to enjoy it. We weren't out there to prove that we were the
best in the world. We were just having fun just doing our thing and
doing it the best that we could. We were so happy that they enjoyed us.
-
WHITE
- Now, how did you have an idea of the kinds of people that frequented
this club? Because, of course, you had never been there. Your parents
were not allowed to go there. How were you aware of the audience
members? How did you know who went to that club?
-
NICHOLAS
- We saw who went to that club.
-
WHITE
- Prior to your performing there, I mean. Did you have any idea?
-
NICHOLAS
- I didn't have an idea. I didn't have any idea at all. The manager,
Herman Stark, wanted us to come up there. I remember when we arrived
there, we went up some stairs to go up there. We'd make the entrance
there. I saw where the hatcheck girl was. I saw this long stage where
everybody would sit and then we'd go backstage to our dressing room. I
had no idea what was going on there until afterwards I found out that
black people couldn't go there.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- I didn't like that at all. Here is a night club in Harlem, with a black
show, with beautiful show girls, beautiful dancing girls, the greatest
acts in the world, the greatest orchestras in the world, like Duke
Ellington and Cab Calloway, and black people couldn't come in there to
see the show. I didn't like that at all. I didn't learn it until I
arrived there. I didn't know that that was happening.
-
WHITE
- It became clear to you through conversations with the entertainers
backstage? Or it became most clear to you when you looked at the
audience and you realized there weren't any black people there?
-
NICHOLAS
- I didn't see any black people, no black people at all. I could see that,
and I noticed that nobody would go out into the audience—like Cab
Calloway or any of the other entertainers. I've seen these people in the
movies, on Broadway. So I wanted to go out there and meet them. I think
I told you that before, didn't I?
-
WHITE
- Just briefly, but I'd like to hear.
-
NICHOLAS
- So I spoke to Herman Stark, our manager. I said, "I'd like to go out
there and meet all of these wonderful stars."
-
WHITE
- How long had you been there before you made that request? Had you
performed there a number of times?
-
NICHOLAS
- Right away. At the first performances, I wanted to meet them because I'd
seen them so much and I could see how they were enjoying us. I wanted to
go and talk to them. So he said, "Go on out there." Now, we're just
little kids at that time. We could go out there and mingle with the
guests. I remember the first time we met Tallulah Bankhead. Did you ever
hear of her?
-
WHITE
- Yes, indeed.
-
NICHOLAS
- I went over to her and I said, "Hello," and she said, "Hello, sit down.
What will you have?" I said, "We'd like some orange juice, please." So
we'd stay out there until it was time to do the next show. There were
only two shows a night.
-
WHITE
- I see.
-
NICHOLAS
- The first one was at midnight.
-
WHITE
- The first one was at midnight?
-
NICHOLAS
- The first one was at midnight, because they wanted to get all of the—
Like Broadway stars could come after their performance. If they started
earlier, they would miss it. It would be twelve midnight, and then I
think two thirty in the morning for the second show. So we'd stay out
there with Tallulah Bankhead or whoever else would be there and just
talk and just have fun until it was time for the next show.
-
WHITE
- So you actually, after you finished performing for the first show,
would— Would your manager escort you out to the audience or would you
just merely walk out and introduce yourselves?
-
NICHOLAS
- I just walked out. We'd just walk out there and introduce ourselves. He
didn't have to come out there because they knew who we were. We knew who
they were. So we could introduce each other. He didn't have to come out
and say, "This is the Nicholas Brothers." They knew who we were.
-
WHITE
- Now, do you recall the reaction from the people in the audience? Because
this was this was a very unusual occurrence. Probably very few, if any,
African Americans had been out in the audience. Do you remember any
feelings?
-
NICHOLAS
- How they felt?
-
WHITE
- How they felt? This was a very new occurrence for them.
-
NICHOLAS
- They were so pleased that we would come out there to talk to them. We'd
just walk there. They wouldn't announce us or anything. We'd just go out
there and say "Hello" and they'd say "Hello!" They were so happy to see
us and we'd sit down. There would be other celebrities out there, too.
So we're there with Tallulah Bankhead, and then maybe Jimmy Durante
would be there and he'd be looking to see and wanted us to come over to
his table. There were others, like Eleanor Powell. She'd be out there.
She'd want us to come over there.
1.6. TAPE NUMBER: III, SIDE TWO
MAY 4, 2000
-
WHITE
- I was just about to ask you how the other performers, the other
entertainers, felt about the fact both you and your brother could go
into the audience and intermingle with various celebrities?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, they were happy that we would go out there and meet all these
different entertainers. They would peek through the curtains backstage
to see how we were doing. They liked that. It was so wonderful, because
there was no jealousy. Just like the entertainers who were sitting out
there in the audience— They liked the Nicholas Brothers, and all of our
peers liked the Nicholas Brothers too, which was wonderful, because
there is so much jealousy in this business that we call show business.
It's not many. There are a few who are that way. We found out in our
life in show business that there's less prejudice in show business than
any other business.
-
WHITE
- Oh, really. Do you really believe that?
-
NICHOLAS
- I know that. There's less prejudice in show business than any other. You
can name other businesses— There's a lot of prejudice. Of course, there
is prejudice in show business, but it's less than others.
-
WHITE
- It's a matter of degrees.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, it's in degrees. So we'd go out there. We were with Tallulah
Bankhead. We were talking to her, we were having fun. There are other
entertainers out there too who want to talk to us, like Jimmy Durante,
maybe, like Eleanor Powell, the Marx Brothers, Al Jolson, Charlie
Chaplin. So they had to wait their turn.
-
WHITE
- They had to stand in line.
-
NICHOLAS
- We're talking to Tallulah Bankhead now. Her father was a senator, in
politics.
-
WHITE
- Is that so?
-
NICHOLAS
- From Alabama, I think. So she knows all about this prejudice jazz and
she hated it.
-
WHITE
- Oh, she did.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yeah, she hated that type of thing. She was so happy to talk to us
because we were little gentlemen—which we learned from our mother and
father, and we were always dressed sharp, because they were two fashion
plates, Mother and Father. So it rubbed off on us.
-
WHITE
- So these stars, they were delighted to be in your company, I'm sure.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes. And I guess we were cute little boys, you might say.
-
WHITE
- Actually, you were a young man. You were eighteen years old at the time.
-
NICHOLAS
- I didn't feel like it.
-
WHITE
- You didn't feel like it. You had a very youthful presence, too.
-
NICHOLAS
- I still have it.
-
WHITE
- You certainly do. I'm sure they would never guess how old you were at
that time.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, no, no, no. It's so funny that I was older than a lot of the dancing
girls there.
-
WHITE
- Oh, were you?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes, and they always thought that I was younger than them. There was
one little girl there who I became very friendly with. Her name was
Winnie Johnson, very pretty little girl. We started going together. I
think she was fourteen or fifteen. Now, I'm eighteen, and she thought
she was older than me. I didn't tell her any different.
-
WHITE
- What she didn't know didn't hurt her.
-
NICHOLAS
- No, it didn't hurt her.
-
WHITE
- That's interesting, because I know that the Cotton Club was owned
basically by gangsters [the Owney Madden gang] at the time.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, that's true.
-
WHITE
- So in terms of age limits, in terms of the hours with which you could
perform, there were really no rules. Is that correct?
-
NICHOLAS
- No. I don't know whether you would say we were lucky or it was just
because it was run by the gangsters that we could work there, because we
were just kids. We're not supposed to be working that late at night.
It's because of the power that they had that we could work there. It was
like slipping a little money under the table to the policemen. They'd
say, "These boys work here and that's it."
-
WHITE
- Enough said.
-
NICHOLAS
- Enough said. But we couldn't work downtown.
-
WHITE
- Like at the Paramount Theatre.
-
NICHOLAS
- I couldn't at the Paramount Theatre downtown.
-
WHITE
- I think there was a regulation, I guess established by the Gerry Society
[Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children], that stipulates
that that would be classified as cruelty to children.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. Cruelty to children. We did open at the Paramount Theatre and they
had the Cotton Club Revue then, the whole
show, everybody.
-
WHITE
- Oh, really?
-
NICHOLAS
- Everybody was there at the Paramount and there we were too, of course.
We did the first show, and then this lady came backstage and told my
father and mother that we couldn't work there.
-
WHITE
- Oh, really? Okay. So that was the last time.
-
NICHOLAS
- That was it, but we could go uptown and work until the wee hours of the
morning.
-
WHITE
- In one of the most prestigious night clubs in the city.
-
NICHOLAS
- But at the Paramount at a decent hour, we couldn't work there.
-
WHITE
- It's a real paradox, isn't it?
-
NICHOLAS
- Isn't that crazy?
-
WHITE
- Yes. The integration in the clubs downtown versus the segregation of the
clubs uptown, but uptown you could work and go against the laws, the
rules and regulations. So it's quite a paradox. It's quite an
interesting period of time.
-
NICHOLAS
- Isn't that something?
-
WHITE
- Yes. Now, in terms of the sort of gangster affiliation with the Cotton
Club, do you recall experiencing or observing any sort of violence or
anything unusual?
-
NICHOLAS
- No, we did not. We knew something was going on because people would talk
about it, but we never did experience anything like one gangster taking
another gangster out and blowing them away. We never knew anything like
that. We knew that the club was run by gangsters. We knew that's why we
could work there. We knew that Herman Stark, who was also one of those
gangsters— That was his job, running the Cotton Club. I don't think he
was involved in any of those other things that gangsters do. I used to
say, when I'd be interviewed on some TV show or the radio and we talked
about the Cotton Club and about the gangsters running it, that Herman
Stark was one of the good gangsters, because he wasn't involved in any
of that shooting or anything. That was his job, just running the Cotton
Club. His hands were full.
-
WHITE
- Sure. That's quite a job in and of itself, I'm sure. So tell me now— You
had the opportunity to perform on stage and entertain a very astute and
talented audience, and then you also were given the privilege of going
out into the audience, intermingling with them. It's my understanding,
and correct me if I'm wrong, that when you entered the club as an
African American and exited the club as an African American, you had to
leave by the back door.
-
NICHOLAS
- No, we didn't. We'd go in the entrance that everybody would go, the
movie stars, the Broadway stars. We'd go up those steps right into the
Cotton Club and then just go to our dressing room. As we were going up
those stairs and reached the top, there would be maybe some celebrities
around and they would see us, and we'd start talking to them then. They
wanted to talk to us then. Like Harold Lloyd. Do you remember Harold
Lloyd? He was a big star in the silent movies.
-
WHITE
- Yes, yes I do.
-
NICHOLAS
- The one that was hanging on that clock in downtown Los Angeles [in the
movie Safety Last]. A great acrobat. It
was live, him hanging on this clock, but it was filmed in such a way
that if he did slip, there was a place where he could— It would be like
a mattress there.
-
WHITE
- He would fall safely.
-
NICHOLAS
- But you didn't see it that way because it looked like he was hanging
from the building. I named my brother after him. Did I tell you that?
-
WHITE
- Yes, you did.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes. He could be right there waiting to be seated and he would see us
and start talking to us. So I told him the story about how I named my
brother after him.
-
WHITE
- Oh, did you?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. Didn't I tell you that?
-
WHITE
- Yes, you did.
-
NICHOLAS
- He said he was honored. I told him it was an honor to name my brother
after him, because I always loved him in his movies. He was one of my
favorite actors.
-
WHITE
- So once again you and your brother were somewhat isolated, or more
privileged than the other black performers. Is it true that the other
black performers had to go through the back door?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes.
-
WHITE
- I understand, looking at some of the literature, there was actually an
African American doorman who would prohibit anyone from coming in.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yeah. Wasn't that crazy? Here is this doorman dressed in his outfit.
Oh, he would look sharp. He had a special outfit, and he was there to
open the door to let everybody go in. If a black couple rode up there in
a limousine—it could be a Rolls- Royce and she could have on diamonds
and fur coats and he could be in his tails and just looking very
elegant—this black doorman wouldn't let them in. It would be likely
they'd say, "I have the money just like everybody else. I can afford to
be here," and he said, "You can't come in." And he was black, the
doorman.
-
WHITE
- But at the same time he would allow you and your brother to go past him.
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, we worked there, and he liked these little boys. So he wouldn't
stop us because we were just going in there— we weren't going in there
to have a table, to sit down and enjoy ourselves with dinner and drinks.
We'd go in there to work. He knew we— we'd go in the front way. The
other entertainers would go in the back.
-
WHITE
- Is that so?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah.
-
WHITE
- So did you ever— during your time that you were working there, did you
ever notice any other black entertainers allowed to go through the front
besides yourself and your brother?
-
NICHOLAS
- Josephine Baker.
-
WHITE
- Josephine Baker? She was an exception.
-
NICHOLAS
- She was an exception.
-
WHITE
- No one else?
-
NICHOLAS
- No.
-
WHITE
- Fascinating. That's fascinating.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, isn't that fascinating?
-
WHITE
- Yes, it is. So, tell me now, for someone who has never been to Harlem,
who has never been to the Cotton Club, can you describe it?
-
NICHOLAS
- Someone who's never been to Harlem and never been to the Cotton Club?
-
WHITE
- And never seen the Cotton Club.
-
NICHOLAS
- I'd always heard about the Cotton Club. I would always listen to Cab
Calloway and Duke Ellington on the radio, and this is where they would
broadcast from. So I always wanted to work at the Cotton Club, and I had
that privilege, to be one of the entertainers to work there. In the
daytime I think it had a canopy. When you drove up there in your car,
you went under the canopy and then went up the stairs. There was the
neon sign which said "Cotton Club." At that time I don't think they had
names for who was playing there, like Cab Calloway and other performers.
It was just the name "Cotton Club." That was enough. When people— Say,
if they came from other cities, they wanted to go to the Cotton Club.
They didn't care who was there because they heard it was always a great
show there that would have bands like Cab Calloway, Duke Ellington, and
Jimmie Lunceford. They didn't have to know which band was there. They
would know a great band would be there. So they didn't question it in
any way. "Let's go to the Cotton Club. I know it's going to be a big
show. It's going to be a great show." I think that's about the best way
I can describe the Cotton Club. It was on Lennox Avenue. About a block
away was the Savoy Ballroom where they'd have big bands like Duke
Ellington and Count Basie, and they would call it "the battle of the
bands." Oh, I can remember that so well. I think when I arrived there,
Count Basie was playing.
-
WHITE
- At the Savoy?
-
NICHOLAS
- At the Savoy. Duke Ellington too, but at this time Count was playing and
he was playing his last number. The band was playing. I think it was
"Every Tub." That's one of his numbers that was a big seller, a record
seller. He's playing in the— And they had this revolving stage. Count
Basie's gang would go off and then here comes Duke Ellington as it would
swing around. Duke would start off with a real [laughs] fast number that
was faster than Count Basie's.
-
WHITE
- Oh, really.
-
NICHOLAS
- That was his first number. So the people were up with Count Basie, with
"Every Tub," and then maybe Duke would play "It Don't Mean A Thing If It
Ain't Got That Swing." [tape recorder off.] Everybody is out there lindy
hopping and jitterbugging and going to town. Duke Ellington comes out
and he's playing. So there's no let down. They were still up as they
were dancing. To tell you who won, I don't know, because they were both
great. I couldn't say Duke was better or Count was better because they
picked the right numbers to play. The audience, the dancers, were happy.
They were happy.
-
WHITE
- The Savoy was segregated as well, wasn't it?
-
NICHOLAS
- No.
-
WHITE
- So blacks could actually join the audience.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah.
-
WHITE
- Right down the road from the Cotton Club.
-
NICHOLAS
- The blacks and whites could go to the Savoy. That was not segregated.
Crazy. Isn't that crazy?
-
WHITE
- Yes, it is. This was such an exciting and creative atmosphere with the
Harlem Renaissance going on and black entertainment was favored,
obviously. So a lot of black entertainers had an opportunity to perform.
For some of them it was the height of their careers.
-
NICHOLAS
- Do you remember there was another nightclub called Connie's Inn?
-
WHITE
- I'm not familiar with that one. Connie's Inn?
-
NICHOLAS
- Connie's Inn. It was a guy who was the manager of Connie's Inn. His name
was Connie [Conrad Immerman]. Louie Armstrong played there, the Mills
Brothers, and other entertainers. It was also a famous nightclub. We
went there and I think we saw the Mills Brothers there. We liked the
club. We were trying to make up our minds which club we should go with,
Connie's Inn or the Cotton Club. So we talked to different people who
said, "Your best bet is the Cotton Club." I said, "Well, okay." My
parents, my mother and father, got together and said, "Boys," talking to
us, "we're going to the Cotton Club"—because they wanted us at Connie's
Inn, too. They said, "No, but the Cotton Club is the best one," and they
were right.
-
WHITE
- The reputation and the kinds of entertainers that frequented the place.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. I don't know if that one was segregated or not. I didn't
investigate that— Well, I guess it wasn't because we went there with my
parents and we had a table ringside.
-
WHITE
- Oh, excellent.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. So I guess it wasn't. Everybody could go there.
-
WHITE
- Except for the Cotton Club.
-
NICHOLAS
- Except for the Cotton Club. How about that?
-
WHITE
- How about that? Even Cab Calloway, who really is credited for in many
respects for making the Cotton Club famous— He couldn't even come out to
the audience.
-
NICHOLAS
- No, he couldn't go out there either.
-
WHITE
- Or come in the front door.
-
NICHOLAS
- No. I think he had this big ego. He didn't want to go out there. He
said, "To hell with them."
-
WHITE
- It's their loss.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. He said, "I'm a big star."
-
WHITE
- He certainly was.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. In that day there were two entertainers who were the biggest
drawing cards in vaudeville, Eddie Cantor and Cab Calloway. There would
always be a packed house for those two; they outdrew everybody else.
-
WHITE
- That's amazing.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah.
-
WHITE
- Now, is it true—I read this in some literature in your archives—that the
talent wasn't even welcome in the restroom at the club? Is that correct?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, that's right. But they had to go. Well, they couldn't stop them.
That would be horrible—backstage and they have to go to the bathroom.
That would be horrible to tell them that they— Well, and the guy who was
running the restroom, he was angry about it, like some of the show
people from backstage would go and he was [makes grumbling noises] like
this and then maybe like he would be smelling something. Well, wait a
minute! Those white people, they smell too, just like anybody else when
they do their business. So why does he have to put his nose up in the
air because the black one went in there and did the thing? Well, the
white one did his thing too in there and I'm sure it smells the same or
maybe worse. [mutual laughter]
-
WHITE
- Yeah, that's really something.
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, we too went in there. We had to get relieved.
-
WHITE
- Sure. I found that really incredibly unbelievable when I read that in
your research papers.
-
NICHOLAS
- What they should have done, they should have had a restroom where the
dressing rooms were.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- Do something there. I didn't like going out there with all those other
people, the entertainers. I wanted something more private.
-
WHITE
- Sure. You guys deserve that. Such a talented plethora of people
there—yourselves and Cab Calloway and Duke Ellington—and to have to be
subjected to this sort of treatment is—
-
NICHOLAS
- To get that kind of treatment, and that darn guy who was there, who
would give you the towels and run the water for you, give you some
cologne and all those things, I didn't like him at all.
-
WHITE
- Was not one of your favorites.
-
NICHOLAS
- He wasn't one of my favorites.
-
WHITE
- Tell me now— I read an article from the [Los
Angeles] Herald-Examiner in
July of 1984. You were being interviewed and you were commenting on your
experience back at the Cotton Club and you said that blacks, of course,
were not let into the Cotton Club when you performed there and this
didn't seem fair, but you were too young to sort of understand
prejudice. But you just made up your mind to do whatever you wanted to
do and to go wherever you wanted to go.
-
NICHOLAS
- I always did that.
-
WHITE
- I'm wondering what kind of relationship did you have with your manager?
Do you recall ever expressing dissatisfaction with that atmosphere or
the fact that your colleagues, your fellow entertainers, couldn't go out
in the audience?
-
NICHOLAS
- No, we got along with him very well. He was in our corner one hundred
percent. He really wanted to make us great stars. I remember when we
were with Ben Bunny at the Chez Paris in Chicago.
-
WHITE
- Yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- Did I tell you?
-
WHITE
- You did mention that.
-
NICHOLAS
- He was crazy about us. He had a special radio show that was coast to
coast that he was doing and he wanted us to be on this show with him. I
think I told you that.
-
WHITE
- Yes, you did. You were speaking about the relationship with yourselves
and Herman Stark.
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, he was in our corner so much. He had so much faith. I told you
when I was on that radio show with Ben Bunny, and they said that my
brother's voice sounded too much like Ben Bunny's so they didn't want us
on the show anymore. Then everybody who was on says, "Why are they
letting you go? Because you're different. You're different—the way you
sing, you perform, when you're tap-dancing. There's not much of that on
any of these shows." I said, "Oh, I guess it's just one of those
things." So Herman Stark, our manager, threatened them.
-
WHITE
- Oh, my goodness.
-
NICHOLAS
- He said, "If you don't have my boys on this show, you're going to be in
trouble."
-
WHITE
- And based on his affiliation, I'm sure that's quite a threat.
-
NICHOLAS
- So they said, "Oh, all right. We'll have them on for four weeks," and we
were on for four weeks. Everybody liked us, but the producers, because
they thought my brother's voice sounded so much like Ben Bunny's, they
cancelled us out of it.
-
WHITE
- Too much competition.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes, it was. Too much competition. At this time my brother's voice was
changing. It wasn't that little boy, and that's what they wanted, that
little boy's voice. He'd come out bass.
-
WHITE
- Of course, he was twelve or thirteen, around that age.
-
NICHOLAS
- The voice is changing.
-
WHITE
- Well, speaking of your family, how about your sister? Did she ever have
an opportunity to see you perform at the Cotton Club from backstage at
all?
-
NICHOLAS
- I don't think she did. She was wrapped up in her education.
-
WHITE
- Really?
-
NICHOLAS
- She didn't have time to go to the Cotton Club. The first show was at
midnight. She's in bed.
-
WHITE
- That's true.
-
NICHOLAS
- I don't think she ever did go to the Cotton Club.
-
WHITE
- That's unfortunate she didn't get a chance to see you there, though.
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, she saw us other places.
-
WHITE
- Yeah, same thing. I'm sure she saw you guys so many times. Did your
parents often come to the club?
-
NICHOLAS
- Mm-hmm.
-
WHITE
- They did? And watched you from backstage?
-
NICHOLAS
- They'd be backstage, but they'd walk through the front with us.
-
WHITE
- They did?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yeah.
-
WHITE
- They were able to walk through the front with you.
-
NICHOLAS
- And then they'd go straight backstage and stay.
-
WHITE
- Right. Of course, and stay back there.
-
NICHOLAS
- When the show was all over, we'd walk through the— [tape recorder off.]
Everybody's going their separate ways. We would walk down those stairs
and we would go to our apartment. I told you the apartment we lived at,
didn't I, the Park Lincoln, in Washington Heights?
-
WHITE
- You sure did tell me that, which leads me into my next couple of
questions. In your archives it was said that during the Great Depression
you and your brother made more money than most adults.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes.
-
WHITE
- I understand that you were never really concerned about money. You left
that to your parents.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. They took care of all of that.
-
WHITE
- You just wanted to go on stage and entertain.
-
NICHOLAS
- I just wanted to go and entertain. They'd take care of the money and
take care of the bookings of wherever we would play and all of that. So
we'd just entertain and dress nice. They'd take us to tailors and get
fitted for new costumes and all of that. So I don't know if we ever did
have any money in our pockets.
-
WHITE
- Never really needed anything.
-
NICHOLAS
- Didn't need it because they had it. They had the money.
-
WHITE
- I'm interested to know how your home life changed. You guys were
beginning to make quite a bit of money and you were living on Edgecomb.
Where did you guys move from when you left there?
-
NICHOLAS
- We stayed there until it was time to come out here.
-
WHITE
- Did you really? Now, was that in Harlem? Sugar Hill?
-
NICHOLAS
- No, I call that Washington Heights. I don't call that Harlem. I don't
think we called it Sugar Hill.
-
WHITE
- That's interesting, because some of your notes indicated that your
family moved to Manhattan, in an area called Sugar Hill.
-
NICHOLAS
- I don't remember that. I know that we were living in Manhattan and
different parts of that they'd call Harlem. Washington Heights, the
Hudson River, all that was around there somewhere.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- Then we had the baseball stadium, Yankee Stadium. That part of it we
called the Bronx, where they had the New York Yankees, starring Babe
Ruth and Lou Gehrig, those great baseball players. It was very close to
where we were staying. Also in that area were the Giants, the New York
Giants staying close to where we were.
-
WHITE
- As you guys began to make more money, do you recall your standard of
living changing at home?
-
NICHOLAS
- Standard of living?
-
WHITE
- Uh-huh, because you guys were making quite a bit of money at the Cotton
Club.
-
NICHOLAS
- That's true. Like I told you, my mother and father took care of all of
that. We didn't go to the office. We were under contract to the William
Morris Agency, and they would go to the office and take care of all the
business. We didn't have to go there. The only time we'd go there was if
they wanted to talk to us about something special.
-
WHITE
- Right. No, I was referring to your home life.
-
NICHOLAS
- The home life was wonderful. We had friends who lived in that area, like
the Brown twins, Hilda and Vivian, who lived close by, two beautiful
girls. They were also in the Cotton Club.
-
WHITE
- Oh, they were.
-
NICHOLAS
- They were dancing girls in the Cotton Club. Winnie Johnson was near
where we lived. She had a big family, sisters and brothers. I was stuck
on her.
-
WHITE
- Yeah, you told me that a little earlier.
-
NICHOLAS
- Did I tell you?
-
WHITE
- Yeah. Now, some of the literature, some of the news articles, actually
said that you and your brother were pampered like cultural aristocrats
and you were kind of sheltered from the harsh realities of most African
American experiences at that point in time. What are your thoughts about
that?
-
NICHOLAS
- I don't know. I always though about myself as an "American." This new
name that they have given us, African American— I never say that. I'm an
American. I don't know anything about Africa. I didn't know— First they
were calling us "colored." Let me see. No, first it was Negro, I think
it was, then colored, then something else. So you didn't know exactly
what you were in America. I say, "Just say American. I was born here." I
don't think they say this about other people like Irish American, German
American, Swedish American— They don't say that. Mexican American. They
don't say that about these different nationalities. Why do they have to
put that on us? African American. What is the difference? If they see
us, they know what we are. They know that we're colored or whatever they
want to say—Negro or black or whatever they want to say. Why do we have
to say African American? Does that let them know we're more African or
more black when they say that? We were born in this country just like
everybody else. So we are Americans.
-
WHITE
- What are your thoughts about being referred to as cultural aristocrats?
-
NICHOLAS
- What do I think about that?
-
WHITE
- Yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, I don't mind. I don't mind that, but I don't let it go to my head.
-
WHITE
- Do you feel that you and your brother were really pampered? I'm talking
about just when you were at the Cotton Club in the thirties, when you
were still in New York.
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, people always make over us. I guess it was because of our talent,
because we were little gentlemen, because mother and father taught us
right from wrong. And all the things that other people did, we didn't
want to do that. We never wanted to be in gangs. We never did get into
dope. I never smoked or drank. I remember when I'd go to parties and I'd
see everybody had such a wonderful time smoking and drinking. I said,
"Well, this must be the way of life." So I started puffing on a
cigarette. [mimics hacking cough] I got choked. I say— [blows a
raspberry] That's not for me. Then I took a little drink of whiskey. I
said, "Oooh, ptooey. That's nasty. I don't want it." That was the first
and last time. Then, going into this other thing of pot or marijuana or
whatever you call it, this little thin cigarette, you might say— I never
did get into that, in fact, didn't even puff it at all. I didn't smoke.
Then they would say to me, "Fayard, you should try this. It'll make you
so high like you're floating in the air." I said, "Man, I've been high
all my life. I was born high. I don't need that to make me high." I
said, "I want to know where I am and what I'm doing. I'm want to wake up
with a cool head. I want to be sober. I don't want to go through all of
that." I said, "It's funny. You guys, you say 'I'll never drink again'
because you have this hangover, and the next day you do it again. So you
haven't really learned your lesson," I say.
-
WHITE
- You definitely had a mind of your own, and you established yourself as
someone who was unique, with a really solid upbringing. So I guess it's
not surprising that you and your brother may be referred to as cultural
aristocrats at that point in time.
-
NICHOLAS
- I remember one time I saw in the newspapers that they had a picture of
my mother and father, my sister, my brother, and me, and they said, "The
first family of Harlem." [mutual laughter]
-
WHITE
- That's exciting. So on that note we're going to go ahead and end the
interview for today.
-
NICHOLAS
- All right, darling.
1.7. TAPE NUMBER: IV, SIDE ONE
MAY 18, 2000
-
WHITE
- How are you doing today?
-
NICHOLAS
- I'm doing well, thank you. Yes, I'm still on my honeymoon, and I'm happy
as the day is long.
-
WHITE
- Oh, that's excellent. You're looking really terrific.
-
NICHOLAS
- Thank you.
-
WHITE
- Well, last time we spoke, which was May 4, we spoke about a number of
different things, but at the end of our conversation we talked about how
you and your brother [Harold Nicholas] had begun becoming really very
successful in your career, and about your family and where you guys were
living when you first started at the Cotton Club, and we talked about
how it has been perceived that you guys were pampered like cultural
aristocrats. We talked about that. You described your home and your
community at that time. So I just wanted to move on from there. I wanted
to shift gears a little bit and talk about the film industry. I know
that, of course, you have a long history in films, but I wondered if you
could talk a little bit about 1932 and that period of time you were at
the Cotton Club. What role did films actually play in life? Did you have
an opportunity to go and see any films at all?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, I always loved films. Ever since I was a little boy, I loved all the
silent movies with all the great silent actors—like Harold Lloyd, who's
one of my favorites. I liked him so much I named my brother after him,
Harold Lloyd Nicholas.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- Lillian Gish and Rudolph Valentino, Charlie Chaplin, Clara Bow. Oh, I
could just go on and on. When I first saw The Jazz
Singer starring Al Jolson— Now this is talking. It was part
silent and part talking, where Al Jolson was singing and he was at a
piano playing the piano and singing to his mother in the film. That
fascinated me. I said, "Oh, gee. This is great! Maybe one day I'll be
able to be in a talking movie," and it came true. Our first movie was
Pie Pie Blackbird starring Eubie Blake
and Nina Mae McKinney. That was in 1932 at the Warner Brothers studio in
New York.
-
WHITE
- How did that opportunity actually come about?
-
NICHOLAS
- We were playing at the Lafayette Theatre in Manhattan. The producer saw
us at the theater, and talked to my parents [Ulysses Nicholas and Viola
Harden Nicholas] and wanted us to be in this movie short called Pie Pie Blackbird. Now, my parents did all
the business, negotiating with different producers. All we did was
entertain, all entertainment. We had nothing to do about where we were
going to appear. My parents would tell us and there we'd go, we'd
appear. We loved entertaining. Right after we made this movie short, we
went into the Cotton Club. The manager of the Cotton Club saw us at the
Lafayette Theatre in Harlem and invited us to come to the Cotton Club,
because they were rehearsing the new show starring Cab Calloway. I think
I told you this before.
-
WHITE
- Right. We talked at length about that.
-
NICHOLAS
- What do you really want to know about my experience in movies?
-
WHITE
- I want to know about your first experience at this point, and then we
can continue from there. Your first experience in Pie Pie Blackbird— Do you recall actually going on the set?
If so, how did it differ from being on the stage in a nightclub or
theater?
-
NICHOLAS
- It was so much different from the stage because there was no audience
there. There was a camera there. So the camera was the audience, you may
say, because naturally the cameraman would take you at different angles.
Say you're performing in a dance and do maybe thirty-two bars and you
stop. Then they pick up where they left off, at a different angle. On
stage when you're performing you just go on and on. You don't stop and
get another angle. So this was very different from the stage. I began to
like it, even though I had to stop, because I tried to put everything
into it as we were going along. We would stop and rest, and then they'd
have a different angle. I'm glad because I'm getting a rest. Now I'm
catching my breath. Then I pick up where I left off, and I put the same
energy into the number, but when you're on stage you put it all at one
time. I liked that. I would rest a little bit before I'd go into the
rest of the number. I liked that about motion pictures. I remember
sometimes they would take the whole routine in one shot, say it would be
a long shot, and take the whole thing, and finish the number. Then they
would take close-ups of us at different parts of the number and
different angles. When they edited, they put it all together, and it
looked like we were going through it all at one time. That was the art
of motion pictures. I liked that. I liked seeing myself on the big
screen. It was fascinating.
-
WHITE
- Do you recall what the experience was like interacting with Nina Mae
McKinney?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, it was lovely. Beautiful, beautiful lady. We became very good
friends. It was wonderful when at the beginning of the movie, she's in
the kitchen baking a pie. We were little boys coming in in short
trousers. We'd come into the kitchen and we'd look at her making this
pie. We'd say, "What kind of pie is that, Miss Nina?" She said, "That's
a blackbird pie." "A blackbird pie?" we'd say. "There's no such thing as
a blackbird pie." Then she goes on to tell us about how she used to sing
a song to us when we were little boys, and she sings this song. That was
our first appearance in a movie as actors—because we had lines. Yes, we
did lines. It was the first time, in 1932, that we made this film. So it
was a great experience.
-
WHITE
- When you and your brother originally broke into the movie business at
this time, black actors were routinely depicted in sort of
one-dimensional roles, often as sort of shiftless servants and that sort
of thing.
-
NICHOLAS
- That sort of thing.
-
WHITE
- There were still a lot of white actors that were playing black actors by
using blackface, painting their faces black. Can you tell me what your
thoughts are about that? How did you feel about that at that time?
-
NICHOLAS
- I didn't like it at all, but also there were black actors who were using
blackface like Bert Williams, who was one of our greatest comedians. He
was respected by all the white comedians like Eddie Cantor, W.C. Fields,
and other great white comedians. They all said that Bert Williams was
the number one, number one actorcomedian, because he wrote special songs
and the way he would portray these songs on stage, his own songs. I know
there's one number that he did where he was playing cards and it was
imaginary. He had his hands before him like this, like he had cards in
his hands and like there were other players there, but they weren't
there. He shuffled the cards, and then he'd throw the cards to each one
of them. He was very good at that. I never saw him [on stage], but I
always heard about him, how great he was. I saw an old silent film of
him doing this card game thing, and he was wonderful because he made us
feel like the people were really there and he really had the cards in
his hands and he was shuffling them. I could see why all these other
comedians said that he was the greatest. I think he was the only black
entertainer who headlined in the Ziegfeld Follies. All the other actors
in the Ziegfeld Follies were white. He was the only black and he was the
star. He wore this blackface like he did in those days. In fact he'd be
at his hotel in New York just before he would go to the theater. He'd be
in the hotel and he'd put this blackface on at the hotel and come out,
and I guess he would get a taxi and get out and people would see him as
he got out of the taxi. He had on his blackface. He'd come into the
theater and keep it on as he did the show, and after the show he would
come out with the blackface still on. He would get in the cab and go to
the hotel.
-
WHITE
- Wow. That's peculiar.
-
NICHOLAS
- Then he would take the blackface off when he was in his room at the
hotel. He always did that, and people didn't know whether he was black
or white.
-
WHITE
- I see. That's interesting. He was always in character.
-
NICHOLAS
- He was always in that character, and nobody knew. I think when he was on
stage they didn't know. A lot of the audience didn't know if he was
black or white.
-
WHITE
- I wonder was that by design for him. He wanted to be sort of anonymous.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes. Take me as I am, as an entertainer, and I'll keep you guessing.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- He was fair. He was very fair, and he had keen features. So you would
never know unless he would take off the makeup, but he kept the makeup
on all the time, just like Al Jolson with his blackface and Eddie Cantor
with the blackface. There were other black entertainers who wore the
blackface. I remember when I worked at the Apollo Theater in New York,
there was one actor. I think his name was Sandy Burns. He wore the black
face. There was Dusty Fletcher—also wore the black face. I always
wondered—it was very strange to me: "Why are they wearing this black
face?" Well, I guess that the act was that way, that they would all wear
the blackface, but I really couldn't understand it at all. I couldn't
understand it. But they were all funny, very funny. I liked what they
were doing. I liked Dusty Fletcher. He did a routine called "Open The
Door, Richard." Did you ever hear of that?
-
WHITE
- I haven't heard of that one, no.
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, he had a routine that he did. He'd be on the stage a little drunk,
and he's coming out and he'd try to walk. Then he would fall down. Then
he'd try to get up again. He'd fall down. He said, "Oh, this whiskey is
so heavy." Then he goes to where his friend is, and his friend is named
Richard. He says, "Open the door, Richard, and let me in," and they
composed a song about that. He made a recording of it.
-
WHITE
- That's familiar.
-
NICHOLAS
- [sings] "Open the door, Richard. Open the door and let me in." Then he
would try to get up again and he would say, "It ain't no use. Just stay
on the floor, on the ground, because I can't get up." He was very
successful doing that, and he wore blackface.
-
WHITE
- Is he one of the particular people that you admired a great deal at that
time?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes. I admired all of these great comedians because they were
original. Very original. They had their own style of comedy. I
appreciated that, even though I didn't like the blackface on them. I
liked the way that they presented themselves on stage and made everybody
laugh. And there was [Dewey] "Pigmeat" Markham. Did you ever hear of
him?
-
WHITE
- No, I'm not familiar with him.
-
NICHOLAS
- He did a lot of shows at the Apollo Theater in New York. I don't think
he used blackface, and he would always play the part of a judge. He
would try different actors who looked like criminals. He had his mallet—
"Order in the courthouse!" That type of thing. He was very funny. Have
you heard of truckin'?
-
WHITE
- Yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- That's a dance. He had a really great way of truckin'. He'd make a turn,
he'd turn his head, and everybody loved him when he did that.
-
WHITE
- I suppose that the song—I think it came out in the sixties—"Keep on
Truckin'"— Maybe they took that from the original truckin' dance from
the 1920s, Isuppose, and thirties. It's a very popular song by [Eddie
Kendricks].
-
NICHOLAS
- There's one I remember called "Everybody's Truckin'." That was one, too.
Oh, it's been so long ago.
-
WHITE
- Sure. It's been a while.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, my goodness. There were so many different types of dances like
truckin' and pickin', the Suzy Q, and, well, naturally the Charleston
was one in those days. There were so many different types of dancing.
-
WHITE
- That's an interesting point. There are so many other types of dances
going on. It was a very popular, robust time, particularly for the arts
and performance and dance. Did you ever have an opportunity to do much
dancing outside of tap?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, you mean like the Suzy Q?
-
WHITE
- Sure. Just go out dancing.
-
NICHOLAS
- I remember I used to go to the Savoy Ballroom in New York, and I'd get
on the dance floor with a girl. First, I'd hold her when I'm dancing,
and then we would separate. She'd be one side. I'd be on the other. We'd
start doing truckin' or Suzy Q and those little dances before we'd get
back together and hold each other. I did all that.
-
WHITE
- Are you pretty skilled in some of the other dances?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say I was skilled in it. I just
have fun doing it, like I have fun in doing the Latin type of dance like
the cha-cha, the rumba and other types of Latin dance. I have fun doing
it. I don't say that I'm an expert. I just have fun doing it and a lot
of times when I'm out there dancing— Like the other evening Catherine
[Hopkins Nicholas] and I were at the Coconut Club. That's a club at the
Beverly Hilton Hotel. It's a special one that Merv Griffin built, sort
of like a take off on the Cocoanut Grove, but they just call it Coconut
Club. Catherine and I were there. There was a Latin orchestra there, and
we started doing the cha-cha and going through these different ways of
dancing. We were having fun, and everybody was looking at us. Now, we
don't call ourselves experts, but they could see we were having fun
[doing] what we were doing. I mean there were other people out there who
could outdance us in that type of dancing, but I guess it's because of
the way that we were doing it, the expressions on our faces, and they
saw that we were having fun. We weren't trying to outdance anybody, just
having fun.
-
WHITE
- Sure, that's infectious.
-
NICHOLAS
- And they were all looking at us.
-
WHITE
- Well, you guys are quite the handsome couple.
-
NICHOLAS
- Then we'd dance off and they'd say, "Oh, you were really good out
there." I said, "Well, thank you." [mutual laughter] Well, we didn't do
it to get praise. We were having fun. We were enjoying ourselves.
-
WHITE
- That makes a big difference.
-
NICHOLAS
- We weren't trying to show that we were any experts, because I was never
an expert in dance with a lady on the dance floor. We're just out there
having fun. A lot of people think when I'm out there that I'm going to
really do a show and they want to see me do it, but no, no, no, I'm just
going out there having fun like everybody else.
-
WHITE
- I guess we're just so accustomed to seeing you perform that that's an
expectation.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. When I'm in movies or on the stage or television, that's a routine
that we have made up. It's all rehearsed and it's with the music. Let me
tell you this. I've known that all professional dancers—you name
them—like Gene Kelly and Fred Astaire and Bill Robinson and other great
tap dancers, they're none of them experts on getting on that floor and
taking a little lady and starting to dance. None of them. They'll get up
there and just dance real nice, but not deal with exhibition. Like when
Fred Astaire is dancing with Ginger Rogers— That's all rehearsed. That's
a routine that they're doing. Now don't expect him to get up and start
doing that with a lady he's never danced with before.
-
WHITE
- There's a certain talent for someone to be able to get up and do an
improvisation. It's a completely different skill to be trained and
rehearsed.
-
NICHOLAS
- That's a separate thing. At that particular time, they were doing that.
Now they're going to get up on a stage and entertain an audience up
there all by themselves. They might not be as successful as they are
with a crowd. So it's a different thing altogether.
-
WHITE
- It's interesting. I hadn't really thought about that until you mentioned
some of the other dances that were out at that time. When I think of
dance and you, I always think of tap. So it's interesting that you
brought that point up and just kind of shared your thoughts on styles of
dancing and your level of enjoyment with them.
-
NICHOLAS
- When I'm out dancing like with Catherine, other ladies, I don't think
about tapping. I think about just having a nice time doing a fox-trot or
a two-step or whatever it may be, maybe do a waltz, and not think about
what I do on stage. You know, it's altogether different.
-
WHITE
- Okay. So let's see now, we were talking about Pie
Pie Blackbird. Do you recall the kind of reception the film
received? Was it well received at that time?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, I think so. I think so because I only saw it on the big screen in
New York City. When we went to see the film at a theater, and it was in
Harlem— Of course, this film would play everywhere, not only in the
black theaters. It played in the white theaters, too. It was nationally
known. When we went to the theater, my parents, my sister, my brother,
and me, and we saw the film— After it was over we came outside into the
lobby of the theater, and I said to my parents, "I liked that. I liked
what I saw up on that screen. I didn't know I looked that good," and
they laughed because I didn't know what I looked like. This is the first
time I saw myself on this big screen. People were telling me how much
they enjoyed us. Fine, but I didn't know what way we looked. When I saw
myself on the screen, then I saw what everybody else saw. It was— I
guess you might say it was a thrill seeing myself up on that big screen.
-
WHITE
- I'm sure it's fascinating.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, it's fascinating. Here I'm sitting in the theater down here—and
I'm up there—enjoying myself.
-
WHITE
- Isn't that something?
-
NICHOLAS
- That's really remarkable.
-
WHITE
- Yeah, it certainly is, to be around at a time when a new invention is
coming about, such as talking films, and then to be in a film speaking
and performing and dancing and having an opportunity to see yourself. It
must have been a terrific experience.
-
NICHOLAS
- That's really a great experience. Sound in motion pictures is the reason
why my brother and I can work in motion pictures as entertainers,
because we wouldn't be any good in silent movies. There's no sound.
-
WHITE
- It wouldn't have the same effect.
-
NICHOLAS
- No, it wouldn't have the same effect, not at all— Dancing up there,
tapping, and you don't hear the taps. [laughs]
-
WHITE
- That's true, your timing was really good. Sound was coming in in the
late twenties and you guys, your career taking off in the early
thirties, very timely.
-
NICHOLAS
- I'm so glad sound came in. It gave us the opportunity to make many
motion pictures. Oh, it was the funniest thing. Lillian Gish, who was a
great actress in silent movies— They were honoring her at the AFI—that's
American Film Institute. Everybody would come up and say things about
her. It was time for her to come up and receive her award, and she gets
up there and says, "They really spoiled the motion pictures when they
put sound to it." I said, "Wait a minute. That's the reason why I'm in
motion pictures, because they put sound to it." But I guess she was
thinking about when the silent motion pictures played all over the
world. It didn't manner what language they were speaking. There were
always the titles if it was in German or French or Swedish. They didn't
have to worry about the language.
-
WHITE
- That's true.
-
NICHOLAS
- But now that sound is in they're worried about— In some countries they
will dub the films. There are other countries where they still have the
subtitles for whatever country it may be—Sweden or whatever. Through my
travels all over the world, I found that in the majority of the
countries, it is always the original language, English, and they have
the subtitles. There are a few countries that will dub. Italy will dub
and Germany and France, but in all the other countries it's in English.
In that way, they learned how to speak English.
-
WHITE
- That's true.
-
NICHOLAS
- In those countries. When I went to all of the Latin countries in South
America and in Central America, all the films were all in English,
original version, and with the Spanish subtitles, but when I went to
Spain it was dubbed in Spanish. In Spain it was dubbed in Spanish. There
I'm looking at this movie, say Bob Hope is on the screen, and here Bob
Hope's coming out with this Spanish. It doesn't sound anything like him,
nothing like him.
-
WHITE
- It looks and seems very odd.
-
NICHOLAS
- But you could still see his mannerisms. It was always there, but a
Spanish voice is coming out of his mouth. Isn't that interesting? Even
in Mexico they don't dub the films.
-
WHITE
- That's true.
-
NICHOLAS
- They don't dub the films and it's with the Spanish subtitles. I remember
one time they tried out something. They dubbed Laurel and Hardy's films.
You remember them, don't you?
-
WHITE
- Oh, yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- Dubbed them in Spanish, and the audience didn't like it— "Boo! Boo!"
They wanted to hear them in English, because they'd gotten used to them
with the funny little things, like [Oliver] Hardy would say to [Stan]
Laurel, "This is a fine mess you've gotten me into," and the way he
would do it, and they got used to that voice when he said that. Then
this comes out in Spanish. It's not the same. So they didn't dub
anymore. They tried it out, but they didn't dub it.
-
WHITE
- All the various learning experiences that many people had to deal with
at that time—the actors, the directors, the editors—just in developing
this new art form is fascinating. It sounds like you had a really good
experience yourself, your initiation into this field. So I wanted to
talk a bit more about that. After your performance, yours and Harold's
in Pie Pie Blackbird, of course, you
started dancing at the Cotton Club. It's my understanding that you were
discovered at the Cotton Club by Samuel Goldwyn.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, to do this film with Eddie Cantor called Kid
Millions.
-
WHITE
- Exactly. Do you remember how that came about?
-
NICHOLAS
- Ah, well, all I know is that we were performing in the Cotton Club. Our
manager, who was the manager of the Cotton Club, came backstage to see
us and said, "There's someone who would like to meet you and talk to
you." He went backstage and brought us over there, and we met Samuel
Goldwyn. He was telling us how much he enjoyed us, and he said that he
was producing a film in Los Angeles called Kid
Millions, starring Eddie Cantor and he'd like to have us in
the film. We said yes. My parents were there too, because they were
still managing us, even though we had the manager of the Cotton Club who
became our manager, Herman Stark. They worked together, my parents and
him. They said, "That's fine." So we signed the contract and then came
out here to Los Angeles.
-
WHITE
- This was your first time to Los Angeles.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. First time. First time to come to Los Angeles, to do this film
with Eddie Cantor called Kid Millions.
-
WHITE
- The two of you and your parents came together.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, my parents and my sister [Dorothy Nicholas Morrow].
-
WHITE
- And your sister?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, we were all here, our first time out here.
-
WHITE
- Do you remember what it was like when you first arrived? How Los Angeles
looked and compared to your experience in New York?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, right away when I got here, I was looking all around, and I said,
"This is it. Let's move out here," because I got tired of those winters
in New York and those real hot summers. I loved the climate when I came
here. Of course, when we first arrived here, they didn't have the real
tall buildings like they have here now in Los Angeles. I said, "Gee."
When I came out again, I said, "Gee, they're trying to look like New
York." [mutual laughter]
-
WHITE
- Do you recall where you guys stayed when you were here? Were you in
Hollywood?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, we stayed at a hotel called the Clark Hotel. It was on Central
Avenue, owned by black managers, and we stayed there when we first came
out here. When we came out again we stayed at the Clark Annex. That was
still on Central Avenue. It was a smaller hotel. I guess that might be
called a motel where entertainers would stay.
-
WHITE
- Do you recall how long you guys stayed the first visit to film Kid Millions?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, let me see. We must have worked on that film about a month, on the
film a month. Then we started doing vaudeville, like going to San
Francisco to do stage shows and then going to other cities in
California—San Jose, Oakland and all those different places.
-
WHITE
- This was right after you finished filming Kid
Millions?
-
NICHOLAS
- Right after I finished the film. We never did stop working. We were
always doing something. Then the last place we ended up was at the
Cocoanut Grove here in Los Angeles, the Ambassador Hotel, the Cocoanut
Grove there. That's when the Cocoanut Grove was the Cocoanut Grove.
-
WHITE
- Was Freddie Martin and his orchestra performing there then?
-
NICHOLAS
- We worked with Freddie Martin there. And the [inaudible] down there was
so wonderful. We always closed the show. Nobody wanted to follow us.
-
WHITE
- Right. That's so true. I've read that in a lot of your records. Now,
when you first arrived here, Los Angeles, we did have the housing
covenant at that point in time where African Americans or blacks were
only able to live in a certain area of Los Angeles and specifically
Central Avenue was a bustling area and most of the jazz musicians were
there.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, well, that's where we were staying. We didn't stay at the hotels
downtown like the Biltmore [Hotel], some of the other hotels. This is
where we stayed, at the Clark Hotel.
-
WHITE
- You would commute to the Goldwyn studios for this film.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yeah. United Artists released the film.
-
WHITE
- The Goldwyn studio was located in Hollywood at that time, wasn't it?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, it was. I think that studio is still there, but it's Warner
Brothers now. Warner Brothers took it over. It was [Goldwyn Studios],
and that was on Santa Monica Boulevard, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah,
right. That's where we did the film.
-
WHITE
- Was it sort of obvious to you at that time that segregation existed in
Los Angeles very much in the way that it existed in New York?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, I knew that this existed, but I never did let it bother me because
I always would do things I wanted to do. Another thing, because people
liked us, so they would invite us places where no other black people
would go. I think we made a hit with certain people because of the way
we were friendly with them and the way our parents taught us right from
wrong, and when we went out, we didn't think about prejudice— "Can I go
there? No, I'd better not go. They won't accept me." I never did think
that way. Like when I was in the Cotton Club, when I wanted to go out
into the audience and meet these wonderful stars, I never did think— I
knew it existed, but I wouldn't think of those things when I'm going to
meet these certain people. So they would invite us to their homes. We'd
just have a great time. I think I told you before, I found out in show
business that there's less prejudice in show business than in any other
business. Actors like actors. They appreciate each other. There may be a
little jealousy, but it's not that much, not that much. Because when
people would see us perform and they— Like when we were at the Cocoanut
Grove and we were a big hit there with the Freddie Martin Orchestra. The
headwaiter who came backstage to our dressing room and said, "There's a
great actress who would like to meet you." I said, "Yes, who is she?"
"Bette Davis would like you to come to her table and have a drink." I
said, "Sure." So we went to her table, sat down there with her, and
talked to her. She was telling us how much she liked us. She said she
enjoyed us so much she cried. That's how much she enjoyed us. We had our
little orange juice with her, and we talked to her, and just had a great
time. And I found out that entertainers support other entertainers when
they like them. So that was a thrill, for Bette Davis to say that to us.
She enjoyed us so much there were tears in her eyes.
-
WHITE
- That's quite a profound statement.
-
NICHOLAS
- So I said, "Well, Miss Davis, we enjoyed you too."
-
WHITE
- A talented, talented actress. So, then, when you first went on the lot,
the studio here in Los Angeles, do you recall what that felt like? I'm
sure it was quite unusual and different from anything you had
experienced before, the Hollywood studio. What was that like?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, I just said, "Well, we have arrived." That's what I said. I always
wanted to come out here and make films and meet all of the movie stars
in person. It was the first time we met Eddie Cantor, the first time we
met Ethel Merman, George Murphy, and Ann Southern. That was the first
time. We were always seeing them on the screen, on the big screen. The
first time I saw Eddie Cantor was in this film called Whoopee. I was in Philadelphia that I saw the
film. It's before I got into show business. So when I met this wonderful
actor, Eddie Cantor, it was a thrill. Then Lucille Ball was in the film.
I think I told you this. She was one of the Goldwyn girls.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- She didn't have any lines in the film, just looking beautiful with all
the other girls. I think I told you that we were outside between the
takes of the film, and Lucille Ball was coming towards us and she had a
little dog. My brother said he liked that little dog. Lucille Ball said,
"You do? It's yours." She gave him that little dog there, but the thing
about it was I had to take care of the dog. It was my brother's dog, but
I had to take care of it.
-
WHITE
- Right. I remember you telling me that.
-
NICHOLAS
- I think I told you that when we saw Lucille Ball and we were talking to
her, and then after our conversation she left, and I said to my parents,
"That girl has something."
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- I said, "I bet she'll be a star one day," because she had that same
energy like she had when she was doing I Love
Lucy, the same. I never dreamed she was going to be a superstar.
Then I saw her in movies, and then when she had her special TV show,
called I Love Lucy, with her husband Desi
Arnaz. Now, you see this wonderful woman, a superstar, and then I
started thinking about when I first met her on the lot there at [Goldwyn
Studios].
-
WHITE
- That's terrific to have met someone before their career took off to such
a degree that hers did and see that growth and that progression, but
it's interesting that you—
-
NICHOLAS
- If you have it, it'll come out.
-
WHITE
- Yes, that's true, and you identified it right away.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. I identified it right away. That's the great thing about this
country. If you have something to give, they'll give you a chance to
give it. Like her— They found out she had something, and they gave her a
chance.
-
WHITE
- Interesting.
-
NICHOLAS
- Isn't that interesting?
-
WHITE
- Yes, now, when you were on the set, your parents would accompany you, I
would imagine.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes.
-
WHITE
- When you guys were rehearsing and what have you. So you had a chance to
intermingle with everyone there. Did you dine together with the actors
as well?
-
NICHOLAS
- I don't remember. On the set?
-
WHITE
- Uh-huh.
-
NICHOLAS
- I don't remember dining with them, no. I remember something that
happened in making that motion picture, Kid
Millions. Eddie Cantor and George Murphy were on the ship
now, on the ship that was going to Egypt where Eddie Cantor was going to
get his millions of dollars.
1.8. TAPE NUMBER: IV, SIDE TWO
MAY 18, 2000
-
NICHOLAS
- They were going to Egypt to get these millions of dollars that Eddie
Cantor had inherited from his uncle. They asked my brother to be a
little page boy, to come to Eddie Cantor and George Murphy and bring
them a [radio]gram, and my brother gave the [radio]gram to him and then
Eddie Cantor gave my brother a quarter. My mother was coaching my
brother. Instead of saying what was in the script, "Can I keep the
quarter?", my mother said [whispers], "Ask them 'May I keep the
quarter?'" And so my brother throws it up and catches it and says, "May
I keep the quarter?" And Eddie Cantor said, "Yes, of course." My brother
said "Bye-bye." And he had that cute little face and his eyes were
beaming, and he just looks up at Eddie and goes, "May I keep the
quarter?" Eddie said yeah. "Thank you." And then he goes off.
-
WHITE
- I imagine this must have been quite the experience for Harold as well.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh yes.
-
WHITE
- You know, being on a movie set. I mean he was quite a bit younger, so it
must have been just awe-inspiring for him.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, and then they had a special song for him to sing, called "I Want
to Be a Minstrel Man," and he— I don't know if I told you this before.
He was in his white tails with a high hat, singing the song, and all of
the Goldwyn Girls were surrounding him as he was singing and they would
kneel down to him because he was just a little fellow, then. Only eight
years old. And he'd look at them as he was singing and they were down on
their knees, looking up at him. They didn't touch him, but they were
there, which made integration before integration. All these blonds and
brunettes and redheads and—most of them were blond—and there they were,
around him. I don't think they had ever done that in motion pictures
before—have this little "colored" boy [mutual laughter] singing to these
beautiful blonds—and everything was fine. He was fine. They had never
done that before.
-
WHITE
- Yeah, that's interesting. Do you recall going to the premiere of that
film?
-
NICHOLAS
- No, no we didn't. After we finished that film, we went right back to New
York at the Cotton Club. See, Cotton Club was home. We could go there
anytime. Even if the new show had started. Herman Stark would put us in
the show anyway.
-
WHITE
- Now when you were here, in Los Angeles, I understand that in 1934 you
had an opportunity to meet Fred Astaire.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh yes, that was when we were coming out here again.
-
WHITE
- Okay, this wasn't the same visit as when you were here for Kid Millions; this was another visit. Also in
1934, though?
-
NICHOLAS
- No, this is in 1935.
-
WHITE
- Okay, 1935.
-
NICHOLAS
- The next year, yeah, when we were at the Cotton Club and we had just
signed a contract to do this film called The Big
Broadcast of 1936 at Paramount [Studios].
-
WHITE
- How did that come about? Do you recall? Because you were back at the
Cotton Club at that time.
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, you see, my mother and my father and Herman Stark did all these
things. We just want to entertain, and to tell you the truth, I didn't
know anything about business, anyway. I wouldn't know how to handle the
money and all that. We were just little kids.
-
WHITE
- Sure.
-
NICHOLAS
- So I knew what was supposed to be happening. We signed a contract to do
this film, The Big Broadcast of 1936. Now
we were in the Cotton Club, just before we were getting ready to come
out here to Los Angeles, and Ed Sullivan was there. We went over to his
table to talk to him and we told him that we were going to go out there
to do this film, The Big Broadcast of
1936. So he said, "While you're out there, I want you to meet a
friend of mine." I said, "Sure." I said, "Who is he?" He said, "Fred
Astaire." I said, "All right." So he wrote a little note and said, "Give
this to him when you see him." When we arrived out here, when we had a
day off from the studio, we called and talked to his secretary and told
them that we had a note from Ed Sullivan and we would like to meet Fred
Astaire. So we went to the studio and at that time, Fred Astaire was in
the recording room, where he would synchronize his taps to the film
Top Hat.
-
WHITE
- He was at RKO studios, right?
-
NICHOLAS
- RKO studios, yeah. And then there was the big screen that was showing
what he was doing and he was putting the taps to what he was doing up on
that screen. I don't know if you saw the movie. Did you? Top Hat?
-
WHITE
- I didn't see that one, no.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, well that was the first film that he and Ginger Rogers starred in.
Well, they made a film before that. It's called Flying Down to Rio—when they first did this number called
"The Carioca."
-
WHITE
- Oh, right, uh-huh.
-
NICHOLAS
- That's when they first— And so they made such a big hit in that film— Of
course, Dolores del Rio was the star.
-
WHITE
- Okay, sure.
-
NICHOLAS
- And I think Gene Raymond. And they made such a big hit and they decided
to make them a team and star in other films, so Top Hat was the [first]. So he was in this recording room,
synchronizing his taps to the film, and he was supposed to be in his
room in the hotel and Ginger Rogers was beneath him, the next floor, in
her room and he would be making all these taps, so she came up and told
him to "Stop that racket!" [mutual laughter] And so, "Oh, okay." But he
still wanted to dance, so he took [some sand] Then he started doing this
sand dance that wouldn't disturb her with all the t-t-t-tap beats.
-
WHITE
- He got around it, huh?
-
NICHOLAS
- So we were watching him doing this. I give him the note, and he said,
"Oh." Then he was happy to meet us.
-
WHITE
- The note was from Ed Sullivan?
-
NICHOLAS
- Uh-huh. I gave him the note and he read it and he said how happy he was
to meet us—because this was our first time meeting him. And he knew
about us.
-
WHITE
- He did. Okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, even though we had been in the business just a short time. Kid Millions was our first film, and then we
made movie shorts at that time, too. He had seen them. My mother was
with us, and after he finished synchronizing his taps to the film, I
said, "Let's go outside. Mother has a movie camera and she'll take us
together." And I said, "We'll do a little time step." So we went
outside—Mother had the camera—and we started doing this time step with
him. That was the first time we danced with him, and we never had the
opportunity to dance with him again. But we always met him at different
affairs, like the Beverly Hilton Hotel or wherever it might be. So
Mother's taking this home movie of us, and after we finished dancing the
time step with him I said, "Now, wait a minute, you need to do one by
yourself." So I picked up the camera and I now started taking him and I
said to him, "What you going to do?" He said, "Just roll the camera."
And so I started rolling and he started turning and then I said, "Walk
this way." So he started walking to us and smiling, and that was the
home movie that we made. We have that in the [A&E] Biography
[episode, The Nicholas Brothers: Flying
High] that we did for— Oh, you saw that, didn't you?
-
WHITE
- Yes, I did.
-
NICHOLAS
- For A&E [Arts and Entertainment network], yes.
-
WHITE
- That must have been fascinating. Do you remember noticing his technique
for tap dancing and maybe comparing it with your own?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, oh yes. When I first saw him, I knew this was a different style from
other tap dancers that I saw. I've seen all the others, like John
Bubbles and Bill Robinson and Eddie Rector and others. They were so much
different from him. Or he was so much different from them.
-
WHITE
- In what way?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, I loved when he danced with a lady. It was something that I had
never seen before, the way he would dance with a lady and it looked so
beautiful. I liked him dancing with Ginger Rogers and Cyd Charisse and
Eleanor Powell better than when I'd see him dancing by himself. That was
something that was his own, and then the way the ladies would follow
him, and it was so neat and smooth. And I said, "That is why he became
so popular in movies, because he danced with a lady."
-
WHITE
- Right, and his charisma.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, I think if he was on the screen just all by himself in each film,
I don't think he would have been this popular. But because he had Ginger
Rogers that could dance with him and the story—like boy meets girl or
boy falls in love with girl, boy leaves girl and then boy kisses the
girl at the end of the movie, one of those things— Like I said, I think
he wouldn't have been as popular if he didn't dance with all these
lovely ladies.
-
WHITE
- That's interesting, an interesting perspective. So you stayed on here to
make The Big Broadcast of 1936?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, we did The Big Broadcast of 1936 and
back to the Cotton Club.
-
WHITE
- Do you recall your experience on filming The Big
Broadcast of 1936? Was that any different? Any unique
experiences, in contrast to when you were here for your previous film?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, it seemed as though every film that we made, we created such a
sensation in these films that the audience in the theater would applaud
us. Every time. All of them, every one of them. Like when Walter
Winchell— You ever hear of him?
-
WHITE
- Yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- Walter Winchell found out that the Nicholas Brothers were going to be in
The Big Broadcast of 1936. He said in
his column, "I see now that the Nicholas Brothers are going to be in
The Big Broadcast of 1936. It's good
that they are in The Big Broadcast of
1936, because they'll be the only ones that will get a hand."
-
WHITE
- Oh, really?
-
NICHOLAS
- That's what he said. Oh, boy!
-
WHITE
- That must have been stinging to the other actors.
-
NICHOLAS
- And what happened is when they premiered the film in one of the
theaters. And when we were on that screen, we did get the biggest hand.
-
WHITE
- Did you really? You were at the premiere?
-
NICHOLAS
- I was there to see it. And we were new to a lot of people in the
audience. They didn't know who the Nicholas Brothers were. And when they
saw the film, then they learned who they were—the Nicholas Brothers—and
went out of the theater talking about the Nicholas Brothers. And then
they knew who these guys were, whom they had never seen before.
-
WHITE
- Interesting.
-
NICHOLAS
- So Walter Winchell was right. [laughs]
-
WHITE
- He certainly was, certainly was. Now at this time, when you were filming
that movie, you and your family were staying on Central Avenue once
again?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes, yes.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay, you were still there. So did you have an opportunity to
intermingle with the cast?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes. Well, with Jack Oakie? Jack Oakie was the star of the film. And
then there was George Burns and Gracie Allen and there was—let me who
else—Henry Wadsworth was in the film. Norman Taurog was the director of
the film and between the takes he was talking to someone—I guess it was
the cameraman—and looking at the script, and after he got through
talking I said, "Ah, Mr. Taurog, here's something I think that we should
do." And he said to me, "Listen, I'm the director of this film." I said,
"Okay." And I told him my idea and then it came time to make our part of
the film. He used my idea. And I didn't say anything because that's all
I wanted, was him to use my idea. So I didn't get mad or anything. And I
didn't go to him and say, "You used my idea, just like I told you." I
didn't say anything. That's all I wanted, just to get him to do what I
wanted him to do. And everything was fine.
-
WHITE
- Good for you.
-
NICHOLAS
- That's the way you've got to be a diplomat in this business.
-
WHITE
- Sure, absolutely. [mutual laughter]
-
NICHOLAS
- That happened on The Big Broadcast of
1936. There were a lot of stars who were doing their films at
the same time that we were, like Gary Cooper was doing a film then. Gee,
I can't remember the film [Peter
Ibbetson], but it was a film where he got injured— They had him
in prison and I think he had a fight and his back was broken from this
fight. He was lying down on his bed there in prison and he was in love
with this beautiful lady, and they would both dream at the same time and
in these dreams they would meet. Fascinating. And then [they] would tell
each other of the dream when they were awake—that they met. And see, in
the dream he would be walking, but he couldn't walk because he had a
broken back. Then she would dream with him and she would come to him.
That was the film that he was making at the same time we were making
The Big Broadcast of 1936.
-
WHITE
- It sounds like a terrific film. I'll have to look that one up.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, it was a beautiful film, because in the film they were thinking
about, like, one of them might die before the other and then they would
meet when they both died. They would meet in heaven or wherever it might
be. That was a beautiful film.
-
WHITE
- Did you have an opportunity to watch the filming?
-
NICHOLAS
- No. Gary Cooper came over—he was a friend of Jack Oakie's—to see us
making the film. And he was in his costume that he wore in the film.
There were a lot of the tourists were there and they found out that Gary
Cooper was coming on our set. There they were, all these young girls,
and they were fascinated to see him. And he blushed. That was something
I heard about him, that when there were people around him and praising
him, he would blush because he was so thrilled that they liked him and
all those things. Here's something, too. When he first started in motion
pictures, it was like a [screen] test. And they're taking him and
they're watching him and the director says, "This guy's no good." But
when they saw him on the screen they saw something they had never seen
before—that he was made for movies, because that camera caught something
that you didn't see when you were watching him there in person. When
you're looking at him in person, it doesn't have the same thing as when
you see him on the screen, because the camera brought out something that
nobody—that he didn't even know that he had, and when they saw it on the
screen, then they say, "This guy's got something."
-
WHITE
- Right, isn't it the way it usually happens?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. [mutual laughter]
-
WHITE
- That's really interesting. So there were quite a number of very popular
movies being filmed at the same time you guys were putting together
The Big Broadcast of 1936.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, and we made another film right after that at Paramount; it was
called Coronado. Let me see who was in it.
Leon Errol, he was in it. I don't know if you know him. He was a
comedian.
-
WHITE
- His name is familiar. You made this right after filming the other one,
before you went back to New York? You stayed here in Los Angeles.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, we stayed here. We made that one right after The Big Broadcast of 1936. After that we made Coronado, then back to the Cotton Club.
-
WHITE
- Back to the Cotton Club. Okay, now at this time you were about twenty or
twenty-one years old.
-
NICHOLAS
- No, I don't think I was. Let me— Wait a minute, maybe I was. If you
think about it, I was born in 1914.
-
WHITE
- Uh-huh, 1935, you're talking about—
-
NICHOLAS
- And this was 1935. I must have been twenty-one. And my brother must have
been, what, fourteen? Yeah, something like that. But we looked younger
than we were.
-
WHITE
- Uh-huh, I see.
-
NICHOLAS
- They always called us "the kids." Even the ones who were younger than us
called us the kids.
-
WHITE
- Really?
-
NICHOLAS
- Because we looked younger than them.
-
WHITE
- I'm sure, a very youthful presence. I'm wondering what it was like for
you, though, because you were becoming an adult. You were in a different
city. I wondered if you felt like you wanted to exert your authority or
if you wanted to have more of a say-so in terms of your career, you
know, as young people do at that point in time. Do you recall having
those feelings of wanting to say, "Listen, Mom and Dad, I'm an adult now
and I want to do certain things my way"?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, gee. When we heard about the tragedy that happened when we came out
here to do The Big Broadcast of 1936— My
father passed away.
-
WHITE
- That happened when you were here filming?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes, we were already here and my father was coming out in this limousine
of ours with the chauffeur—his name was Lorenzo Hill—and my father's
halfbrother was also coming out and we were at the hotel and we got a
call from our chauffeur, Lorenzo Hill, that Father had passed away on
their way out.
-
WHITE
- He actually had a heart attack in the limousine?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes, he had a heart attack, yes. And that was in 1935. So [we] had the
funeral and all of that.
-
WHITE
- The funeral took place in New York?
-
NICHOLAS
- No, here.
-
WHITE
- Here?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes, and the family was there—mother, sister, and brother and friends.
We started getting ourselves together in a couple of days, then we went
back to finishing this motion picture called The
Big Broadcast of 1936. And then we— Mother was still
traveling with us and we did some more vaudeville shows around
California—went back to San Francisco. I think it was called the
Warfield Theater, in San Francisco. It was a tour, another tour all over
California. Then we got back to New York at the Cotton Club, and then we
went into the Ziegfeld Follies, starring Fanny Brice, Josephine Baker,
Bob Hope, Eve Arden, Judy Canova, the Cherry Sisters—it was
all-star—Gertrude Niesen, Hedda Hopper. So many wonderful stars and the
Nicholas Brothers were in this.
-
WHITE
- Now prior to beginning this particular production— I'm curious, and if
you don't mind sharing, was it unusual that your father was not here
with you in Los Angeles when you came for The Big
Broadcast of 1936? Because it was my understanding that
generally your mom and dad would accompany you to most of your
performances.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes.
-
WHITE
- Do you recall what the reason was for him not being here at that time?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, the reason why he wasn't with us was because we took the train from
New York to come here, and he wanted to drive out here so we'd have the
car.
-
WHITE
- I see. Of course, that makes sense. Now when we first started talking
about that, before you brought it up, I asked you if you felt like you
wanted to exert your authority. You were becoming a young man, and I'm
wondering if that had something to do— Were you going to tie those two
things in together?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, now that I'm older—I'm a young man—I wanted to take care of the
business myself, but Mother took care of it. I think after we appeared
in London at the Gaiety Theater, in a show called Lew Leslie's Blackbirds of 1936— We were there, I think,
about ten months, we did this show, and then we arrived in New York from
London and we went back into the Cotton Club. This was when the Cotton
Club was downtown, at Forty-eighth Street and Broadway. And remember I
told you that black people couldn't go into the Cotton Club uptown?
Well, downtown everybody could go there. I think my brother and I were
the pioneers because we showed them that little colored boys have class.
[mutual laughter] We helped to get that started. Everyone could go to
the Cotton Club downtown. Couldn't go uptown, but downtown they could
go. At the same time we were doing this Broadway musical, Babes in Arms, starring Mitzi Green and—
-
WHITE
- Now, were you and your mom, at this point, sort of negotiating or
talking with one another about your upcoming performances or the
direction of your career? Did she consult with you a bit more because
you had come of age, so to speak?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, at this time, I was taking care of all the business.
-
WHITE
- Oh, you were?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yeah. And let Mother rest. Yeah.
-
WHITE
- I see. Okay, when did that transition take place?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, it just happened.
-
WHITE
- It just sort of happened.
-
NICHOLAS
- Mother would go—we were under contract to the William Morris Agency—to
the office with me, but now I would do most of the talking because I was
older and I had learned the business, thanks to her and my father. And
so it gave her a rest.
-
WHITE
- I see.
-
NICHOLAS
- But I would take her a lot of times with me when we would talk to the
agent, and she would talk too, because, before, I didn't think about
money or anything like that—how much I'm going to make—because she and
my father did all of that. Now I'm concerned about that and so we're
talking, and now I'm learning more about the business and she's right
there with me. Then, when I did get to know the agency and what we would
be making and all of that, then she didn't have to go anymore. But she
did go in the beginning. She did, because she and my dad would always
talk to the William Morris Agency and find out what we would do and
where we were going and then they would tell us and then we would go to
these different places.
-
WHITE
- I see. Do you recall approximately what year you and your brother signed
up with the William Morris Agency?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, let's see. It must have been in 1934, I believe—when we made the
film with Eddie Cantor. And we were with them for sixteen years.
-
WHITE
- Quite a long time.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, it was a long time. Then, when I found out that I didn't need them
anymore, I said, "Why should I be giving them ten percent when I can do
this myself?" Because a lot of producers would call me and say
"so-and-so and so-and-so." Naturally, I'm under contract to the William
Morris Agency, so I would tell them, "This producer said, 'So-and-so and
so-and-so.'" And then they would get in contact with the producer and
negotiate. This would happen so many times, that they would call me— Why
don't they call William Morris? They're calling me. But you see, the
thing is that they were calling me, I realized, for more money than
William Morris.
-
WHITE
- Oh, good for you. You had become quite savvy in the business.
-
NICHOLAS
- They called me and they thought that I was going to ask for less, but
they were wrong.
-
WHITE
- That's interesting. Do you recall approximately the kind of salary that
you would make at that time for your performances?
-
NICHOLAS
- We always did get good money—good money—because we would always— Most of
the time we would do concerts and it would only be the Nicholas
Brothers, so all that money would go to us.
-
WHITE
- Sure, and this was after you had starred in films.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yeah, this was after. Yeah, because the films made us famous all
over the world, so we could do concerts all over the world and it could
be just the Nicholas Brothers, because we were so versatile that we
could do a show for an hour and maybe stretch it to an hour and a half,
because we could talk to the audience, we could tell them jokes. We just
didn't have to do dance after dance after dance. We'd sing and we'd play
drums, and so now we are entertainers. Naturally, we're dancers, because
that's how we started, but—I think I told you this—I got tired of this
dance, dance, dance. I'm getting tired, so I told my brother, "Let's do
something else. Let's sing, let's talk to the people." Because of that
we could do these shows all by ourselves. So naturally it's our show. We
were the headliners and we'd have an orchestra to play. Naturally, we
had to pay them for playing. But we didn't have to pay anybody else.
-
WHITE
- I see. So you were basically conducting all the business at that point,
without the agent.
-
NICHOLAS
- I was doing it without the agent. I didn't need them. But it's always
good to have someone to represent you. The William Morris Agency was one
of the biggest agencies in America, and so it was fine for sixteen
years. But when I found out I could do these things by myself— like now
people are calling me.
-
WHITE
- Of course they are.
-
NICHOLAS
- Right now, I'm going to Detroit. I don't need an agent because they're
calling me and my brother to do these different appearances, and we're
getting awards. Everywhere we go we get certain awards—like in Detroit
we're going to get an award. Here in Los Angeles we're going to get an
award. Then we're going to St. Louis [Missouri] and then to St. Paul
[Minnesota] and all of these are done without an agent. I don't have to
give them ten percent. I don't have to have a manager, because with a
manager—
-
WHITE
- They get fifteen percent, don't they?
-
NICHOLAS
- They get fifteen, or maybe they get twenty percent.
-
WHITE
- Yeah, my understanding is that they get fifteen percent.
-
NICHOLAS
- And some of them get twenty-five and thirty. Some of them make more than
fifty percent.
-
WHITE
- Sure, for someone who's starting out.
-
NICHOLAS
- And for someone who's starting out— I think that happened with Diana
Ross. She had a manager who wanted fifty percent. And she said, "Wait a
minute." Now she's become a big star. She doesn't need this man anymore.
Get fifty percent? So she bought her contract from him that she had
signed. Now she's clear and she gets all that money herself.
-
WHITE
- It's a very interesting time because, you know, the entertainment
industry was just beginning to blossom and the whole role of a talent
agent and the role of a manager was just really developing and coming
into prominence. And a lot of people really took advantage of some very
talented actors because it was a new industry. The relationship was new.
It had no definition, it had to be created as we went along. I imagine
this happened with a lot of actors and performers—
-
NICHOLAS
- —who had a manager who would represent them—
-
WHITE
- —and take advantage in certain ways.
-
NICHOLAS
- You see, those managers would go to the agents and see if they would
work together, so that meant that you would be paying the manager and
the agent. So if you were giving your manager fifty percent, now it's
going to be sixty percent, because the agent is ten percent.
-
WHITE
- Gee, and after taxes, what do you get, like ten or twenty percent?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, what are you going to wind up with? There you are, the big star,
and you're paying out all this money. So I can see how Diana Ross felt.
She says, "Wait a minute. I'm a big star now, I don't have to be paying
out all this money. What's the matter?"
-
WHITE
- Good for you. You had the wherewithal to identify that and make changes.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, so she just bought her contract from him and then everything was
fine after that. Because, see, the manager gets some percentage from her
records, from her movies, from anything that she does.
-
WHITE
- Right, and it was the same case with yourself and your brother, right?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. So— "Wait a minute! Let's cut all this jazz out. I can do it by
myself." Well, now I don't have to work. I just do it because I want to.
You see, out there where I'm staying at the Motion Picture and
Television Country House, it's home there. It's a great place for
retired actors to stay, and you don't have to worry about taxes and a
whole lot of things that you worry about in this jungle out here. So I'm
out there and these different producers will call me. They find out
where I'm staying and say, "I'd like for you and your brother to do a
concert"—say—"in San Francisco." I say, "Well, fine, if the price is
right, we'll do it." [mutual laughter] And so, see, I'm doing this
without an agent or a manager. We negotiate and find out how much money
is involved and we'll do it, but I don't have to do it, see. That's the
thing. If I don't like a certain thing about where we're going to work
and what's going on, I just say, "I'm sorry. We are too busy right now.
We won't be able to do it." I'll tell them anything to get out of it,
like "I have a previous engagement, I'm sorry." They tell you what date
it is and I say, "No, I'm doing something else then."
-
WHITE
- That's great. So you learned these skills from two of the most talented
people, obviously, from your parents.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, they were great, yeah.
-
WHITE
- They really instilled in you the ability and the confidence to actually
negotiate and handle this kind of business. It's more than just a
notion. You were dealing with some very prominent, very influential and
powerful people at that point in time, and so the fact that you were
able to navigate your way through that process as a young man, I think,
definitely says a great deal about your parents and your upbringing.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes, they were the best. The best parents in the world.
1.9. TAPE NUMBER: V, SIDE ONE
MAY 24, 2000
-
WHITE
- I wanted to continue from there and just follow up a little bit on
Babes in Arms. I understand from your
literature that in 1937 you made a short film in London. It was entitled
Calling All Stars.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes.
-
WHITE
- Mr. [George] Balanchine was the choreographer for that, if I'm not
mistaken, and the ballet master?
-
NICHOLAS
- Of Calling All Stars?
-
WHITE
- Uh-huh, is that correct?
-
NICHOLAS
- Who'd you say—?
-
WHITE
- Balanchine.
-
NICHOLAS
- Valentine?
-
WHITE
- Balanchine.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh. I don't remember who—
-
WHITE
- You don't recall?
-
NICHOLAS
- Because nobody did any choreography for us in that film. We did our own
choreography.
-
WHITE
- You did?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah.
-
WHITE
- Okay. It shows that he invited you to appear in Babes in Arms, is that correct?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, I see what you're getting at. But, no, it wasn't like that. Are you
thinking about George Balanchine?
-
WHITE
- Yes, Balanchine, uh-huh.
-
NICHOLAS
- That's who you're talking about. Well, he was not in London with us. He
was the choreographer of Babes in Arms.
-
WHITE
- Okay, all right.
-
NICHOLAS
- He's a ballet choreographer.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- And we were appearing at the Cotton Club at that time, the one downtown
on Forty-eighth Street and Broadway, which was just a block from the
Shubert Theatre, where we were doing Babes in
Arms, so we could just walk over to the Cotton Club or walk to
the Shubert Theatre. It was very easy. We didn't have to call a taxi or
anything like that. As we were appearing in the show at the Cotton Club,
the producers of Babes in Arms saw us
there and wanted us to come and rehearse for Babes
in Arms—because the show had just started rehearsing. They
were out of town at different other theaters, like in Philadelphia and
Hartford, Connecticut, and it was like a dress rehearsal. All those
Broadway shows, before they open, they go out of town. We didn't have to
go out of town because they had finished all of that rehearsing. Now,
they had two little boys in the show—gee, I forget their names. Well,
they were playing the roles that they wanted my brother [Harold
Nicholas] and me to play and they thought the two kids weren't strong
enough for the show, so they asked us to be in the show. When we arrived
there, we met Richard Rodgers and Larry [Lorenz] Hart, who composed all
this beautiful music in Babes in Arms,
like "The Lady's A Tramp," "Where or When?", "Johnny [One Note]," "My
Funny Valentine," and other songs. All hits. All hit songs. We met
Richard Rodgers and Larry Hart, yes, and George Balanchine, who was the
choreographer of the show Babes in Arms.
As we approached him—George Balanchine—he said that he was happy to meet
us and he'd seen us in movies. He said, "Would you get up on stage and
just do a little something for me?" So we did. We went up on stage and
we started tapping and carrying on and my brother would slide through my
legs in the split and I'd jump over Brother's head into a split and
right then George Balanchine said, "Stop! I've got an idea." And I said,
"What is that?" He said, "This number we're doing is called 'Johnny [One
Note].' It's a big production number. All the cast will be in it." And
he said, "I want you guys to be in it, too." And he said, "I've got an
idea where two girls will come downstage, they'll bend down and, say,
Harold, you do a cartwheel over the girls, and Fayard, you jump over the
girls and do a split." Now this kept building and building and building.
Now there were eight girls. So eight girls would spread their legs, back
to back, and my brother would do a split right through the eight girls
and then he said, "Fayard, I want you to jump over the eight girls." So
I had to take a real long run through. So they went down and I did the
jump over them into a split.
-
WHITE
- My goodness, that was quite a show.
-
NICHOLAS
- Uh-huh, and then we did that and then we finished the number and that's
what he told us he wanted us to do. Before we rehearsed it, he said,
"That's what I want you to do." I said, "Oh, fine." So we went back into
the audience to talk to him and he said, "That was fine, fellahs." He
said, "Did you ever take up ballet?" And I said, "No, we never did take
up ballet." He said, "It looks like it." I said, "Well, that's a great
compliment, coming from you, Mr. Balanchine. We just dance the way we
feel. If it looks like ballet, so much the good."
-
WHITE
- In your records it does indicate that based on your performance a lot of
people actually thought that you guys were ballet dancers or had been
trained in ballet. So it was quite a performance, I understand. Actually
there was one comment that was made about the performance—in response to
it, I should say. [Brooks] Atkinson of the New
York Times paid tribute to the Nicholas Brothers as "Two
dancing fools who clatter along the stage with rhythmic frenzy that only
Negroes can conjure out of a Broadway night." I wonder what your
thoughts are about that comment.
-
NICHOLAS
- I didn't understand that at all, the way he put it. He said, like,
"only"? What did he say? "Only Negroes" can what?
-
WHITE
- "—that only Negroes can conjure out of a Broadway night."
-
NICHOLAS
- "Only Negroes." "Only Negroes can—"? Well, I think all races can do it.
Yeah, not just Negroes. If they have the rhythm, and they have the soul
and the talent, anybody can do it—white, black, red, yellow, whatever
color. They can do it. Just because they see us up on that stage and
they see what color we are— At that moment I guess that's the way he was
thinking.
-
WHITE
- I see. Thinking very narrowly.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, narrowly. But I think all races— They can be that way, too.
-
WHITE
- Rhythmic, that rhythmic. [laughs]
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, with the talent that they have.
-
WHITE
- That's interesting. I thought that was sort of a provocative quote and I
wanted to just get your opinion on that.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, because I want to tell you about— Listen, what he said— I always
tell people, when they see my brother and me on the big screen, the
movie screen, whatever movie it may be— When you're watching us, you're
not looking at black Nicholas Brothers or white Nicholas Brothers.
You're looking at the talent. When you're looking at the talent, don't
be thinking about what our color is. Just think of the performance.
That's what you're looking at.
-
WHITE
- I'm sure you had to remind people about that.
-
NICHOLAS
- I had to remind them about that, yes.
-
WHITE
- Okay, so I was about to say that I know that you danced in 1933 with
Paul Robeson in The Emperor Jones.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh! My brother.
-
WHITE
- Harold did that—?
-
NICHOLAS
- Harold did that in the movie Emperor
Jones. He was just— Let me see, how old was he? I think he was
seven years old, or eight, or something like that. It was like in a
nightclub where Paul Robeson entered this nightclub with a beautiful
lady and the headwaiter took them to their table, and as they sat down
the show had started, and there was my little brother conducting the
orchestra. He had his baton and he had on his tails and there were the
beautiful showgirls that he was dancing with. He would direct the
orchestra and then he'd come right in the middle of them and then he
would start dancing this routine that they were doing together, in
Emperor Jones. No, I was not in that
film. He was in it alone.
-
WHITE
- Okay, all right. I know that in a previous session you indicated that
you and your brother were invited to places that other African Americans
were not. Firstly, I wanted to ask about your affiliation with other
up-and-coming stars—black stars, I should say—at that time, such as Paul
Robeson or Hattie McDaniel, or I wonder if you were aware of the
director/producer Oscar Micheaux, and the films that he had been
producing since the teens and in the 1920s. So I wonder if you could
talk a little bit about your interaction with up-and-coming prominent
stars at that point in time, such as those three people.
-
NICHOLAS
- At that time— Well, most of the stars that we met in those days were
already stars. The up-and-coming ones—
-
WHITE
- Or even those that were already stars. Did you interact with them?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, well, I always became friends with them, and we respected them and
they respected us. And always, when I'd meet them, I'd tell them how
much I'd enjoy them. If it's Paul Robeson, how much I enjoyed him in
films. And any of the stars, like Cab Calloway and Duke Ellington. I
always admired all these people, especially Duke Ellington, because his
was my favorite orchestra. He was a great orchestra leader, a great
arranger, a great composer of all these wonderful songs. I admired all
of these people and I was so happy that they admired my brother and me.
We were always passing compliments to each other.
-
WHITE
- I see. Sure. Are you familiar with Oscar Micheaux's work? For instance,
he did a film called Black Cat Tales with
Buck and Bubbles [Ford Lee Washington and John William Sublett] in 1933,
and then he also produced a movie called The
Bronze Buckaroo [directed by Richard C. Kahn] with Herb
Jeffries in 1938.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes, I just talked to Herb Jeffries last week.
-
WHITE
- Oh, good.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, he's going to appear at the Roosevelt Hotel.
-
WHITE
- Uh-huh, this coming Saturday.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, they're celebrating Duke Ellington's 100th birthday or
something—or maybe his music, maybe that's what it's all about—and Herb
Jeffries will be singing there. He's invited us, Catherine [Hopkins
Nicholas] and me, to come see him. It's on Saturday, I think, the
twenty-seventh.
-
WHITE
- I saw that advertisement.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, it's been advertised?
-
WHITE
- Yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, in the papers?
-
WHITE
- Uh-huh.
-
NICHOLAS
- I saw that— Buckaroo?
-
WHITE
- Yeah, The Bronze Buckaroo.
-
NICHOLAS
-
Bronze Buckaroo. Yeah, I saw it, with Herb
Jeffries in his white hat.
-
WHITE
- Exactly.
-
NICHOLAS
- It was a funny thing. When he was in a fight, the hat never did come
off. [mutual laughter]
-
WHITE
- Did you ever have any contact with Oscar Micheaux? He was a very
prominent African American director.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oscar Micheaux. Never did meet him. When my brother and I were invited
to the Paramount Theatre in Oakland, where every year [the Black
Filmmakers Hall of Fame] would give [the Oscar Micheaux Awards] to
prominent black actors and black actresses— They would invite us there,
and we received an award, too. And they would have a show and show the
films of Oscar Micheaux. They would show films that he made. We never
did make a film with him. I guess he made most of them in New York. Did
he not? Where were most of them [made]?
-
WHITE
- I think a combination of both New York and Hollywood.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, so we were never in contact with him. Let me see— If you want to
call it "black films," we never did make a black film with black
producers and— Like Stormy Weather was an
all-black cast, but produced by white people.
-
WHITE
- Exactly.
-
NICHOLAS
- Let's see, the shorts that we made, like Pie Pie
Blackbird, that was an allblack cast. All-Colored Vaudeville Show was an all-black cast.
-
WHITE
- But they were produced by white producers?
-
NICHOLAS
-
The Black [inaudible], all-black cast, but
produced by white producers and released by Warner Brothers, one of the
biggest studios in America. But that's the only way you can say we made
something black—but not really.
-
WHITE
- Right. [mutual laughter] The casting part, at least. Okay. Now at this
point in time, were you in contact with other stars such as Shirley
Temple or Jane Withers, who has been described as Hollywood's tappiest
child star?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, let's see. The first time I met Shirley Temple was in Oakland, at
the Paramount Theatre, when they— It was something that they do every
year. Like I told you, they will give awards to different— And they will
have their Oscars, you might say, in Oakland at the Paramount Theatre,
and say who's the best actor, best actress, best picture. All these
movies were produced by the white studios, but there would be black
actors in them and they did a great performance, so they give them
awards, there in Oakland at the Paramount Theatre. They were paying a
tribute to Bill Robinson that year— I forget what year it was [1978].
Shirley Temple was there. She was a guest and she was out there to talk
about Bill Robinson, who was her co-star in the movies. They tap-danced
together when she was very young—must have been about eight or nine or
something like that. And she said Bill Robinson proved to her that black
is beautiful. That's what she said in her speech. And naturally they
showed film clips of her dancing with Bill Robinson. That was the first
time I met her and I got a chance to talk to her when we were backstage
in the green room, you might say, where everybody could meet and chat.
We talked and I told her little stories about when we first met Bill
Robinson, and that we danced with him, too. So we had a wonderful time.
Let's see— Jane Withers. Well, Shirley Temple, Jane Withers, Anne
Baxter, Linda Darnell, Roddy McDowall— We were all at 20th Century-Fox
at the same time, and my brother was going to school with them. Yeah,
because that was the law then. You can work here at the studios, but
you're supposed to get your education.
-
WHITE
- Absolutely. So he was actually going to school rather than having a
tutor?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, at that time, at 20th Century-Fox. We didn't need the tutor then,
because we could go right to school right there and then. And I think
the lady who taught him is still alive. Yeah, I think she is.
-
WHITE
- That would be a fantastic opportunity, to see her.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, it would be, wouldn't it? And so that's when I met Jane Withers.
And Jane Withers always wanted to dance with us, she wanted to do a film
with us at 20th Century-Fox. But the studio made it a hush hush. And she
wanted to do it so badly, but they said no. No colored [inaudible].
-
WHITE
- Exactly.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, right, but Betty Grable wanted to dance with us, too.
-
WHITE
- It was prohibited.
-
NICHOLAS
- It was prohibited. Well, today it's okay. But in those days they were
thinking about the box office, and what will be happening in the South
and those things.
-
WHITE
- Sure, this was unacceptable at the time. I know that you mentioned in a
previous session that at that time you and your brother were invited to
places in Los Angeles that other African Americans were not. I wonder if
you could expand upon that— Can you recall any of those places?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, let me see. Well, at the Cocoanut Grove, where we worked— Freddie
Martin was the orchestra leader there, and we were co-starring with him,
and it was all right for us to go there. I remember when we first opened
at the Cocoanut Grove— Bette Davis, she came there to see the show.
After the show was over, the headwaiter came back and said, "There's a
young lady who'd like for you and your brother to come to her table."
-
WHITE
- Oh, you shared this with me last week.
-
NICHOLAS
- I told you that?
-
WHITE
- Yeah, you sure did.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, that was at the Cocoanut Grove. During the time that we were
there, we had a cottage there at the Cocoanut Grove.
-
WHITE
- Did you? A cottage, where you would live?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. Yeah, we lived there and there was— Oh, I can't remember his name,
but he was a choreographer, he was a dance teacher and he had his studio
right there in the hotel. He came by and saw our show, and came
backstage to see us and he said, "I've been teaching these movie stars.
I'd like for you guys to come and be guest teachers." I said, "Sure."
And I said, "Who will I teach?" He said, "Betty Grable, Ruby Keeler."
And he said, "Ruby Keeler's sister, she would like to take some lessons
too." Fine. So we said, "Let's teach in the Cocoanut Grove because the
stage is big and you can move, really move around." So there I was,
teaching Betty Grable and Ruby Keeler, and Ruby Keeler used one of our
routines in a movie that she did.
-
WHITE
- Is that so?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes.
-
WHITE
- You made an impression upon her.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, right. So things like that were happening. People just grew to
like us. We were friendly to them and they were friendly to us.
-
WHITE
- A very comfortable relationship.
-
NICHOLAS
- Very comfortable, and it was the talent that they really— Because at
that time they weren't thinking about color.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- It was the talent. And then we'd be invited out to different parties—the
Hollywood parties. But not real wild, because we were just little boys,
and so we would— All these things happened in those younger days and of
course we knew the prejudice was still there.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- But we didn't let it bother us and we didn't think about it when we
would go out to different places.
-
WHITE
- I see. Okay. That's real interesting. Okay, so we're now into the late
thirties—1938, 1939—and I wonder if you could talk about your love
interests at this time, both yours and Harold's. I know, of course, that
you got married in 1941, but prior to that time, during the 1930s—
-
NICHOLAS
- No, 1942 I got married. I met my first wife [Geraldine Pate Branton] in
1941.
-
WHITE
- Right. Thank you for correcting me. But prior to that time, you guys had
quite a reputation as playboys. [Nicholas laughs] I wonder if you can
talk a little bit about the love interests that you had and I believe
Harold— Perhaps he had met Dorothy Dandridge at this point.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes, well, we always liked the ladies. Did I tell you that I was in
love with this beautiful girl? Her name was Winnie Johnson.
-
WHITE
- Yes, that was earlier.
-
NICHOLAS
- I think that was my first love. She was one of the dancing girls at the
Cotton Club, the Cotton Club uptown, yes, and—
-
WHITE
- I mean a little bit later, like in your twenties, like 1938, 1939. At
this point you were about twenty-five or so—twenty-four or twenty-five.
What was going on in your life at that time?
-
NICHOLAS
- It seemed that wherever we would work, there were beautiful dancing
girls around. We would always introduce ourselves to them or they would
come to us. Like when we were appearing at the Roxy Theater in New York
City. There were all these lovely girls dancing and they could do
anything. The dance director would tell them to do the dance on big
balls and just roll on them with their feet. They would do things like
that that seemed impossible. They were all great. While we were
appearing at the Roxy Theater, we had two dressing rooms there, one for
my brother and one for me, and they connected, like there was a bathroom
right in between, and so these girls would come to our rooms and sit and
talk to us, because we had enough room there. We had a big couch and
chairs and we had a bar where we had all of our drinks—orange juice,
that is. [mutual laughter] And Coca-Cola, maybe something like that.
That was the strongest, Coca-Cola. They'd come and talk to us between
the shows and we just got a little closer to them. [mutual laughter]
-
WHITE
- Okay. Now, had Harold met Dorothy Dandridge at that time?
-
NICHOLAS
- He met her— I think it was '38 or '39. They were the Dandridge Sisters
then. It was Dorothy, Vivian [Dandridge], and Etta Jones. Etta Jones was
no relation, but the three of them got together and they called it the
Dandridge Sisters. That's when we first met them. It was rehearsal at
the Cotton Club downtown, in New York—Fortyeighth Street and Broadway.
Cab Calloway, his orchestra was there, and my brother and I, we were
co-starring with Cab Calloway. We were there for the rehearsal with
everybody else. We were sitting on one side and we saw these three
lovely little girls across from us. I said to my brother, "Hey, man,
look over there." And he said, "Yeah, I see." I said, "Let's go and talk
to them." So we went over and said, "We're happy to meet you. Welcome to
our great city. My name is—" And they said, "We know your name. You're
Fayard and he's Harold." "Yeah, that's right. I'm Fayard Nicholas. This
is my brother, Harold Nicholas." She said, "Yeah, we know the Nicholas
brothers. You don't have to introduce—" [mutual laughter] So we started
talking to them and asked if they would like to go out with us to see a
movie or something like that. Now they had this nanny or chaperone. They
called her Ma-Ma. I guess you saw the movie Introducing Dorothy Dandridge?
-
WHITE
- Yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- The lady who portrayed Ma-Ma? How tough she was? Very strict. She didn't
want the girls to go out anywhere, and then she would go with them. It
was really that way. Yes. When I met the girls my eye was on Dorothy,
and so was my brother's. And I saw that he was making more of a headway
than I was. So I just stepped aside, because my brother and I, we would
never fight over women.
-
WHITE
- Sure, good for you.
-
NICHOLAS
- If we see a girl is paying more attention to either one of us, that's
it. That's the way— You don't fight or anything like that. So my brother
and Dorothy— When we would go to different cities they would correspond
all the time, always kept in touch. After the show closed at the Cotton
Club, [the Dandridge Sisters] went to England at the London Palladium in
1939 and we were on our way to Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. They were still
corresponding, keeping in touch with each other. They had a big success
in London and we had a big success in Rio de Janeiro.
-
WHITE
- Can you tell me a little bit about that experience? I just want to talk
kind of briefly about your international experience, particularly in
South America, when you danced with Carmen Miranda.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, wait a minute. No, Carmen Miranda was not there at that time.
-
WHITE
- She was not?
-
NICHOLAS
- No, she was not. I mean a lot of people think that, because we've been
associated with Carmen Miranda and we became very good friends after the
movie Down Argentine Way. That's when we
first met her, at 20th Century-Fox studios.
-
WHITE
- I see. Okay. What was your reason for being in Rio de Janeiro in 1939?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, our agent, the William Morris Agency, booked us down there. In
fact, anywhere that we were popular, that's where they would book us.
-
WHITE
- Okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- And they'd negotiate with all the producers. So we were working at this
club down there called Casino da Urca. That's the name of the club, and
at that time, 1939, they were gambling. They were gambling at that time
in this beautiful nightclub. We went there to rehearse and we waited for
the orchestra. The orchestra was rehearsing the dance music that they
were going to play. And gee, I loved the music this big band was
playing. It was Latin jazz. That's what it was and I loved it. And I
told my brother, "We're not going to have any trouble with this band.
They're going to really play our music. So, yes, we were a big hit
there. Oh, yes. We learned that just before we arrived there Josephine
Baker was playing at this same club.
-
WHITE
- Oh, was she really?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes, she was the big attraction there, and we followed her a day after
she closed. Right away she went back to France. We didn't get a chance
to meet her there.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, we opened up and we were the stars of the show.
-
WHITE
- It sounds like an exciting experience.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes. They had us on radio and it was a wonderful time. They would
take us to different nightclubs. They would just give us a tour of the
city. That was great; it's a beautiful city.
-
WHITE
- Sure. Well, after that point I understand that you and your brother came
and relocated back to Los Angeles.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, after our success in Rio de Janeiro?
-
WHITE
- Yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- Right.
-
WHITE
- And it was at that point that you both filmed Down
Argentine Way?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes. Let me tell you how that happened. We had just arrived in New York
City and we got in touch with our agent, the William Morris Agency. They
said, "Fellahs, they're making a film in Los Angeles called Down Argentine Way. Because of your
experience down there in Rio de Janeiro, this will be a great
opportunity for you to sing the songs that you learned down there."
-
WHITE
- Oh, absolutely.
-
NICHOLAS
- "And do this [screen] test." So we did a [screen] test in New York.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay, you auditioned for the movie in New York?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, did this [screen] test. So we learned these songs down there, like
[sings] "Mama yo quiero [oh oh] / Mama yo quiero [oh oh] / Mama yo
quiero, mama." Then the other one [sings], "Brazil do-do-do do-do-do."
And I think that's why we got the role in Down
Argentine Way, because we knew these songs.
-
WHITE
- Well, that was certainly important in the casting process. Now I
understand that up until this point you had done most of the
choreography, but for Down Argentine Way
you worked with Nick Castle?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes, before we didn't have a dance director to work with us.
-
WHITE
- You did not?
-
NICHOLAS
- No, we never did. We started in 1930 and I did all the choreography all
through those years. So now we're going to make this film in Los Angeles
called Down Argentine Way in 1940. We were
there in our dressing room and all of a sudden there's a knock on our
door there at the studio. I opened the door and it was Nick Castle. He
said, "I'm happy to meet you guys. My name is Nick Castle, and I'm the
choreographer for this film, Down Argentine
Way. You will be working with me." I said, "Fine." The three of
us got together and we created this number in Down
Argentine Way, and it was a song that my brother sang in
Spanish, called "Argentina." So it first opened up with a song. He sang
it in Spanish and I'm using the maracas, those things that you shake,
like the Latin people do in the orchestras. As he's singing I'm doing
this, and there's a part in the song where it says, "You find your life
will begin every moment you're in Argentina." [does the clicking
vocalism from the number] Did you see the movie?
-
WHITE
- I did.
-
NICHOLAS
- You did see the movie. Remember when we did that? [repeats clicking
sound]
-
WHITE
- Yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, and so then we went into the dance. So Nick Castle, my brother and
I got this routine together. He didn't do the whole routine.
-
WHITE
- Oh, he didn't? It was a concerted effort.
-
NICHOLAS
- No, no. In fact, he never did all of the routines in all the movies that
we made with him. We would also add something to it.
-
WHITE
- I see. You all worked together.
-
NICHOLAS
- But it was great that he was there with us, because he had such
wonderful ideas and we put them together. For instance, if he would do a
certain step, I'd say, "Hey, Nick, that's great. Okay, let me learn
that." So I would learn it and I'd say, "That's great, Nick. Now wait,
how about putting this step to it, too?" And I'd do it and he'd say,
"Yeah, that's great. They go well together."
-
WHITE
- So you guys were able to collaborate effectively?
-
NICHOLAS
- Collaborate, yeah, like that. We worked so well together and I don't— I
think he worked better with us than anybody else, because we both would
think of all these different ideas. For instance, when we were doing
Stormy Weather the different ideas—
Like, do you remember when we were dancing around the orchestra?
-
WHITE
- Yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- My brother thought of that.
-
WHITE
- Did he really?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay. Now in Down Argentine
Way—correct me if I'm wrong—the two of you ran up a wall and
back flipped into a split?
-
NICHOLAS
- No, that was in Orchestra Wives.
-
WHITE
- That was Orchestra Wives, oh, okay. I know
that you crafted some really unique pieces for Down Argentine Way also, and some of them became—
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yeah, I jumped over the handkerchief.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- When I jump over the handkerchief into a split frontwards and then jump
over it backwards in a split without turning the handkerchief loose.
-
WHITE
- Yeah, it's fascinating.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, well that was one of the classics in that film that the audience
just went wild about, seeing me jump over that handkerchief frontwards
and backwards.
-
WHITE
- That's interesting. Speaking of the audience going wild, I understand
that there was a certain point where the marquee had to be changed to
indicate that it was "Down Argentine Way
starring the Nicholas Brothers."
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes. Well, when the film opened up at the theater, on the marquee it
said, "Down Argentine Way with Don Ameche,
Betty Grable, and Carmen Miranda." After we created such a sensation in
this movie, when the audience was clapping and whistling and stamping
their feet, the operator in the projection room had to rewind the film
and show it over again.
-
WHITE
- Oh, really?
-
NICHOLAS
- The manager of the theater found out what was happening, so he went
outside and had them change the marquee, and it said, "Nicholas Brothers
in Down Argentine Way." And then put their
names back [on the marquee below the title].
-
WHITE
- That's terrific.
-
NICHOLAS
- Everybody was going to see the film to see us.
-
WHITE
- I understand that this was somewhat of a turning point in your career,
because of the success of this film. I believe right after that you
signed a contract with Fox?
-
NICHOLAS
- With 20th Century-Fox, because of that. They got us right away. They
signed us right away, because other studios would have wanted us, too.
So they signed us right away.
-
WHITE
- Was this for a multiple movie deal?
-
NICHOLAS
- It was five years.
-
WHITE
- Okay, for five years?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, we signed for five years. So many things happened. Darryl F.
Zanuck, who was the president of 20th Century-Fox, became our biggest
fan. He was crazy about us; we could do no wrong. Whenever he'd come by
and bring friends to see us rehearsing, like when we were rehearsing
"Chattanooga Choo Choo," the number for the film Sun Valley Serenade, he came by and we just started
rehearsing it.
-
WHITE
- That was also with Nick Castle, right?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, that was with Nick Castle, too. We were rehearsing and we were
making all kinds of mistakes and I said, "I'm sorry, Mr. Zanuck. We just
got this number and we're just rehearsing it and we're still learning
it." And he said, "That's all right. I know it's going to be okay. I
just brought by some of my friends to meet you and I came by to see you
too. I know it's going to be all right. Don't worry about it." So he had
that faith in us. He was our biggest fan and he loved— I remember when
we were doing Orchestra Wives, one of the
producers of Orchestra Wives—
-
WHITE
- That was in 1942?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. He wanted to cut our singing out of the film. And Darryl F. Zanuck
said, "You cut nothing from the Nicholas Brothers. Leave everything just
like it is." He was our great fan.
-
WHITE
- Oh, terrific, that was a nice person to have in your corner, right?
-
NICHOLAS
- And another thing, too, let me tell you this. The restaurant there at
20th Century-Fox, the commissary. I remember after we were rehearsing
Stormy Weather at 20th Century-Fox we
wanted to go to the commissary. This was our first time going to this
commissary, because all the time we would just go home and eat.
-
WHITE
- This was about 1943.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, '43. We were with Nick Castle, going up there, and the doorman
right there, he stopped us and he called Nick Castle to his side and
started talking to him. And after he talked to him, Nick came back to us
and said, "He said you can't go in here." I said, "What do you mean, we
can't go in there? Listen, we make all this money for this studio.
People come to the movie sometimes just to see us, and now we can't go
into this commissary? What is going on?" And I see all the extras going
in. Of course, all the extras are white.
-
WHITE
- Of course.
-
NICHOLAS
- I said, "Nick, look at those people. They don't make money for this
studio. They're going in there just because their skin is different from
mine. And I can't go in there?"
1.10. TAPE NUMBER: V, SIDE TWO
MAY 24, 2000
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, this doorman stopped us and he called Nick Castle to the side. I
saw him there talking to Nick. I didn't know what was going on. Then
Nick came back to us as he finished talking to this doorman. I said,
"What's happening, Nick?" He said, "You can't go in there." I said,
"What? We can't go in there? Because of the color of our skin?" He said,
"Yeah, that's it." And I said, "Look at all the extras who are going in
there. Because they're white, they can go in, but the Nicholas Brothers
can't go in there because they're black? All the money I make for this
studio and I cannot go in there? But they can?" I said, "Something's got
to be done, Nick." So Nick said, "Don't worry about it. Don't worry." So
Nick went to Darryl F. Zanuck and told him what had happened and then
Darryl F. Zanuck got on those people right away and said, "The Nicholas
Brothers can go in there any time." The next day, Nick Castle, my
brother, and me— We went in and this doorman said, "[Inaudible]" [mutual
laughter]
-
WHITE
- Changed his attitude.
-
NICHOLAS
- Changed his attitude after he got the word from the big boss.
-
WHITE
- My goodness. So do you recall what the experience was like when you were
actually in there eating? How did the other actors respond to you?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, they were fine. They were fine. When we were there they said, "Oh,
hello, Nicholas, how are you doing?" You see, they were fine.
-
WHITE
- I guess this was just a policy that had been in place for many years.
-
NICHOLAS
- Some kind of policy before, and so this doorman was keeping that policy.
Maybe he didn't know who we were or he was just going by the rules.
-
WHITE
- Of course. Very interesting. Very interesting point in history. Just
prior to that incident I know that you guys performed "Chattanooga Choo
Choo" [in Sun Valley Serenade], with
Dorothy Dandridge singing. I think that was a first in terms of having
an African American woman perform for that kind of production. It was a
turning point with respect to the casting of Dorothy Dandridge. Do you
recall?
-
NICHOLAS
- I remember when we started rehearsing "Chattanooga Choo Choo" for the
film Sun Valley Serenade and we were
talking to Nick Castle. I said, "Nick, let's do something a little
different. Why don't we have some femininity in one of our routines?"
Nick said, "Well, what do you have in mind?" And my brother said, right
away, "How about my fiancee doing this number with us?"
-
WHITE
- Okay, they were engaged at this point.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, yeah. He said, "Her name is Dorothy Dandridge and she's made a few
films, but I think this will be the first musical that she will be in."
We said, "Have her sing and dance with us during this number,
"Chattanooga Choo Choo." Nick said, "Fine, that's right." So they
started talking to the producers and getting all excited about Dorothy
Dandridge doing this number with us. Naturally they sent for her to come
there and told her we were rehearsing the song. She was listening to the
music as they were playing on the piano. Then Nick said, "I've got this
idea." [laughs] Another idea! He said, "Glenn Miller and his Orchestra
will start off the song with Tex Beneke and the Modernaires. Right after
they finish they'll pan over to you and Dorothy Dandridge." He said,
"We're going to have them to build a little train that says 'Chattanooga
Choo Choo' on it." I said, "Hey, that's good, Nick." So we got together
and started doing the routine. She picked it up fast, the dance steps
for the three of us to do. Nothing hard, none of those splits and
jumping all over each other.
-
WHITE
- Right, of course.
-
NICHOLAS
- Just a nice little tap dance. She looked so beautiful there, in between
us.
-
WHITE
- I'm sure Harold was particularly pleased.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, was he pleased! His fiancee is in the movie with him.
-
WHITE
- Sure, it must have been quite a treat.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, I think it's two times that someone else danced with us in a
movie—Dorothy Dandridge in Sun Valley
Serenade, when we did "Chattanooga Choo Choo," and The Pirate, with Gene Kelly.
-
WHITE
- Uh-huh, in 1948.
-
NICHOLAS
- In 1948. Those were the only two people that danced with us in a film.
-
WHITE
- Well, that was an honor for them, you know, to be able to dance with the
Nicholas Brothers. I'm sure it was very intimidating. [mutual laughter]
So let's see now, in an interview with you for the Los Angeles [Herald]-Examiner—it was actually done in July of
1984—you were quoted as saying—
-
NICHOLAS
- The Los Angeles Examiner— That paper
doesn't exist anymore, does it?
-
WHITE
- No, it doesn't.
-
NICHOLAS
- What happened to that building downtown?
-
WHITE
- Oh, you know, I'm not sure.
-
NICHOLAS
- Did they tear it down? Or did they make a museum out of it? [laughs]
-
WHITE
- They probably just renovated it and maybe something else is in there.
-
NICHOLAS
- Maybe it's a garage.
-
WHITE
- Yeah, a parking space. You never know these days. But you were quoted as
saying that even though the story lines and the dialogue of most of the
movies at this particular time, in the early forties, late thirties,
would make today's blacks cringe, at the time awareness of prejudice and
color lines hadn't necessarily become a critical factor. I know you just
mentioned the incident about eating on the lot. But in terms of the
reception of the films, I know that oftentimes your parts were cut when
the films were shown in the South.
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, my brother and I, we did a tour of the South, in all of the
southern states. It was one-nighters that we did. I remember we got a
call from the William Morris Agency. They wanted us to come to the
office; they wanted to talk to us. They said, "We've got a good deal for
you and your brother to play down South." I said, "When you say south,
you're not talking about South America. You're talking about Deep South,
like Georgia and Mississippi?" He said, "Yeah, that's what I mean." I
said, "Really?" He said, "Yeah, doing one-nighters." I said, "I don't
want to go down there. You know how things are." He said, " Don't worry
about it. You'll have your own bus. You'll have a road manager to go
down with you, to take care of everything—where you're going to stay—and
make sure that everything is okay for you guys." I said, "I don't want
to go." Then he started talking about the money, and I saw these dollars
before my eyes. "Oh, yes? Yeah, I'll go!" [mutual laughter]
-
WHITE
- You changed that tune pretty quickly.
-
NICHOLAS
- I changed the tune, yeah. I'll tell you another story about something
that happened like that, too. When I found out how much money we were
going to earn, and he told me that the road manager would be with us and
we would be well taken care of as we went. We wouldn't have to associate
with anybody; we'd have our own special bus. He said, "There's a
bandleader that we'd like for you to take down there with you. He's just
started a big band." I said, "Who is that?" And they said, "Dizzy
Gillespie." I said, "You mean the Dizzy Gillespie who does the bee-bop
music?" He said, "Yeah, that's him. It would be great if you take him
down there with you." This was our show, the Nicholas Brothers show, and
we were given Dizzy Gillespie to show off his big band, because he never
had a big band before, because he always played in little combos with
Charlie Parker, playing their bee-bop music. I said, "Fine, fine." And
then we had Lovey Lane, the exotic dancer. We had June Eckstine singing,
who was Billy Eckstine's wife at that time. We had Patterson and
Jackson, comedians—they called them "600 pounds of joy," because they
both weighed 300 pounds. They were dancers and singers. One of them did
a take off on the Ink Spots, singing [sings] "If I didn't care—
Ooooooh—" So we had a good show and we took it down there and I remember
the first engagement, let me see, I think it was in Tennessee. I had
heard all about this, about cutting black people out of the movies when
they played down South. After the show was over there were more white
people coming back to see us than black people.
-
WHITE
- Oh, really?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. Then, oh, how they told us how much they enjoyed us and they had
never seen anything like this before. They were just going on. This
little pretty blond blue-eyed girl came over and hugged me and kissed me
and I was thinking to myself, "Is this really the South? What's going on
here?" Well, these are probably people who don't think like the majority
of the people in the South think. I guess they hated the way everything
was going on. They said, "We loved all your movies." I said, "You mean
you saw all our movies here in Tennessee?" They said, "Yes." I said,
"Which one did you see? Did you see Down Argentine
Way?" They said, "Yes, we saw—" I said, "You saw that here
in this city?" What's Tennessee's city, is it Jacksonville, Tennessee?
-
WHITE
- Uh-huh, yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- I said, "You saw that movie here in Tennessee?" They said, "Yes." I
said, "Really? Did you see Sun Valley
Serenade? "Yes." I said, "I named some, now you name some more.
What other films did you see?" She said, "Tin Pan
Alley, Orchestra Wives—"
Really?" I said, "They didn't cut—" "No," she said, "No, they didn't cut
you out of those films." That's one of the main reasons why a lot of
people saw the film. They would come to the theater because of the
Nicholas Brothers.
-
WHITE
- That's interesting. So you're saying that— For a lot of other films,
though, that had black stars in them, they were actually cut out in the
South. But for your films, your parts were not cut out.
-
NICHOLAS
- No, like I told you, they were looking at the talent on that screen and
there was no reason why they should cut us out of the film, because we
were on that screen all by ourselves. We weren't rubbing elbows with
Betty Grable or Alice Faye or any of the other white actresses. It was
only us. We got up there on that screen, we'd do our thing, and then
they'd go right to something else. There was no reason.
-
WHITE
- Would you attribute it to the fact that you didn't have speaking roles?
-
NICHOLAS
- I don't know. I don't know, because, you see, if we had speaking roles
in those films, we would have the prominent part in the film, and if
it's a prominent part in the film, I don't think they would cut us out
if we were all through the story. Like those pictures that Stepin
Fetchit was in, they didn't cut him out of those films.
-
WHITE
- This is true.
-
NICHOLAS
- No. Willie Best, Mantan Moreland, Hattie McDaniel, they didn't cut them.
When she won that Academy Award for Gone with the
Wind, they didn't cut her out. They would ruin the story if
they'd cut her out.
-
WHITE
- Sure. I think some of that has to do with the fact that these roles that
Best and Moreland, anyway, were playing were very stereotypical roles,
so they weren't considered offensive to a white audience.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. Well, those types of roles they would never cut out, but if it was
a role, say, like someone who was playing a doctor or a lawyer, and they
found out, they would cut it out. They would cut that out because it was
showing the black man in an educational way.
-
WHITE
- Exactly, which was unacceptable at the time.
-
NICHOLAS
- Unacceptable at the time down there. But it's so different now.
-
WHITE
- Thank goodness.
-
NICHOLAS
- Thank goodness, right.
-
WHITE
- Sure. Well, that's interesting to hear your experience in the South. I
understand that you were in Chicago in 1941, and that's where you met
your first wife, Geraldine Pate.
-
NICHOLAS
- Geraldine Pate, yes.
-
WHITE
- Can you tell me a little bit about the reason you went to Chicago and
how your meeting came about?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, we were playing at the Regal Theater and it was a continuation of
the show that we did in the South. We took our show to New York,
Chicago, and other cities in the United States of America. It was in
Chicago at the Regal Theater, we were there. And a friend of ours came
by to see us. His name was Jimmy Payne. And he says, "Fellahs, I want
you to meet three lovely girls." I said, "Oh, we're always ready to meet
three lovely girls." He says, "Yes." It was between our shows. I think
we were doing five shows every day and we had about an hour or so
between the shows. So he said, " I want you to go meet these lovely
ladies." I said, "Sure." So he took us over to the home of my first wife
and her two sisters, Geraldine, Rose [Pate], and Eloise [Pate]. And
Brother was with me. We knocked on the door and Geraldine opened the
door, because Jimmy had called and told her that he was going to bring
us by. So she greeted us and was happy to meet us. She looked at my
brother and she said, "I know you. You're the one— You think you're the
ladies man." She had him pegged right away. And my brother said, "What
did I say?" They invited us in and we talked and we had lemonade and
some hors d'oeuvres and food and everything. Then it was time for us to
get back to the theater to do the next show. And so I was talking to
Geri because I liked her right away. I liked the way she talked. She was
so intelligent. When we were leaving and we were walking back to the
theater, I said, "Oh, I like her. I like Geri. Oh, she's so nice." I
said, "Fellahs, I'm going to marry that girl." And all through my life
until then, I just wanted to be a bachelor. I didn't want to get
married, I just wanted to have a good time with all the lovely ladies.
But when I saw her and the way that she would talk, I said, "I'm going
to marry that girl." Now this was in December 1941. Before I left the
house I said to her, "I'd like to see you again." So we made a date, and
we'd go out to different places to have dinner. We got to know each
other and I asked her to marry me. Love at first sight. This was in
December. I know it so well because this was when we got into World War
II, because the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.
-
WHITE
- Um-hm, December the seventh.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, and that was during the time that I met her. We started talking
and started talking about marriage and she said yes— [whispers] Just
like that. And I said, "I'm going back to Los Angeles because we're
going to do another film. I said, "I'll send for you." And I did.
-
WHITE
- And you did.
-
NICHOLAS
- And she got there—bam—we got married.
-
WHITE
- So you got married in Los Angeles?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, no. Let me tell you what happened. She came on the train and the
train stopped in— The first stop, I think, was in Pasadena. And so we
met her. My valet, who was also my chauffeur—his name was Lorenzo
Hill—and my mother [Viola Harden Nicholas] were with us. We drove to
Pasadena in our limousine and met her there at the train station, and
she got off the train there. We greeted her and we took her to the
justice of the peace.
-
WHITE
- Did you? Right away? [laughs]
-
NICHOLAS
- Right away. And she said—it took her by surprise—"Where are we going?" I
said, "We're going to get married, honey." "Already?" I said, "Yeah,
come on, let's go." [mutual laughter] Those were the two witnesses, my
mother and our valet. And so— Bam! She was so nervous. She missed— He
said, "Do you take this man to be your lawful—" She said [he pretends to
stutter], "I-I-I do."
-
WHITE
- This took place in Pasadena?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, in Pasadena. Then we got into the car and drove here, to Los
Angeles.
-
WHITE
- Where did you settle down? Where did you live, you and she?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, first we lived on Van Ness Avenue, near Exposition [Boulevard] at—
Let me see, oh, it's been so long—1942. The address, I think it was
3766, I believe, Van Ness Avenue. I could be wrong. We had a lot of
friends in the neighborhood.
-
WHITE
- Was this an integrated neighborhood at the time?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes, yes, at the time. Well, more so now.
-
WHITE
- But it was predominantly black at that time?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, at that time. Different races were there at the time. We lived
close to Eddie "Rochester" Anderson.
-
WHITE
- Oh, did you?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, he built a home there.
-
WHITE
- Oh, really?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, uh-huh. Oh, I remember when Jack Benny was invited over to see his
new home. He looked around and said, "This home is better than mine."
Because Jack Benny was his boss. You saw Jack Benny in the movies with
Rochester, and the radio shows and television shows they did together?
-
WHITE
- Certainly. So did you live in a house there, as well?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, we had a house. We had a home there, our first home, in 1942.
That's where we lived.
-
WHITE
- That was the first home that you bought in Los Angeles?
-
NICHOLAS
- That was the first one.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- And my mother had a home, too, nearby.
-
WHITE
- She did?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, uh-huh.
-
WHITE
- Okay. How about Harold and Dorothy?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, they bought their home when they got married. They bought their
home, which was close by.
-
WHITE
- All in the same neighborhood?
-
NICHOLAS
- All in the same neighborhood. And so that was nice, in those days. Geri
made a big hit when she came out here.
-
WHITE
- Did she?
-
NICHOLAS
- Everybody wanted to meet her. Everybody. All the agents, like the
William Morris Agency, because they heard that we had gotten married.
They wanted to see, because they had heard so much about her. And they
loved her pretty legs. [mutual laughter] She had little hands, little
feet. Size three shoes, she wore.
-
WHITE
- Oh my goodness, very small.
-
NICHOLAS
- Very small, yeah. And a lovely figure. She was something. She was really
something. And they all wanted to meet her. And all the show people
liked her. They wanted to meet her. So my mother gave a special party
and invited everybody to meet Fayard's lovely wife. She invited Lena
Horne, Hattie McDaniel. She invited Eddie Rochester and his wife, Carmen
Miranda and her band. They were all there. They wanted to meet Geri. And
when they met her, they fell in love with her right away. Naturally,
Dorothy was there.
-
WHITE
- Of course, they were best friends, right?
-
NICHOLAS
- They were, yeah. They became best friends. They weren't best friends
then.
-
WHITE
- I see.
-
NICHOLAS
- Herb Jeffries was there. And Nick Stewart, who was also called
Nicodemus. He was there.
-
WHITE
- He owns the Ebony Showcase Theatre.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, that's right. He was there. Oh, gee. All these wonderful show
people came. They wanted to see Geri, and they fell in love with her
right away. They even performed for her. Hattie MacDaniel was singing a
song. My mother, she arranged this at her place.
-
WHITE
- Oh, this was at her home?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes, she arranged it, because I was staying with my mother before I
married Geri.
-
WHITE
- I see.
-
NICHOLAS
- I was still staying with my mother, but when I came back to Los Angeles
I didn't want to stay with my mother anymore.
-
WHITE
- Of course not.
-
NICHOLAS
- So we found a place to stay.
-
WHITE
- Well that was nice, to start off your life with your new home and your
new wife in Los Angeles.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, and this home is where my brother and Dorothy Dandridge got
married.
-
WHITE
- Is that so?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay. They had the wedding ceremony there.
-
NICHOLAS
- They had this wedding ceremony there. They invited everybody, the agents
and Nick Castle was there with his wife and naturally, Vivian, Dorothy's
sister. Etta Jones was there and other celebrities. Those were happy
days then.
-
WHITE
- Yes, you have very fond memories of those times.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, very good memories.
-
WHITE
- And you continued your career, because in 1942 you were in the
production of Orchestra Wives. What was
Geraldine doing while you were at the studio?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, she always would travel with me wherever I would go.
-
WHITE
- She would come on the set? Here in Los Angeles?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes, and when we'd go to Europe she would go with me. My first son, Tony
[Anthony Nicholas], when he got a little older, like five years old,
then she would bring him to Europe to visit me. She would get involved
with different people. She was always reading books. She was a college
graduate and everybody liked her. There would be men who would be trying
to hit on her, but she knew how for them to keep their distance. She
talked to them, and they learned so much from her. There were a lot of
times they would just come by to see her to learn something, and not
thinking about hitting on her, because they knew they couldn't.
-
WHITE
- Right. That's interesting.
-
NICHOLAS
- She set 'em off right away— "It's not like that, Jim."
-
WHITE
- She was faithful.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah.
-
WHITE
- That's excellent.
-
NICHOLAS
- She got involved with many different friends who were intellectuals that
she could talk to and [they could] learn something from each other. She
was very good friends to my sister and her husband. Byron Morrow is his
name. And my sister, Dorothy Nicholas Morrow. They've been married for
fifty-one years now.
-
WHITE
- Oh, my goodness, that's a lifetime.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, and so Geri's still friendly with them, and Geri's [second]
husband [Leo Branton]. And I'm still friendly with Geri, too, because we
have something in common—we have two sons.
-
WHITE
- Absolutely, that's wonderful. Early on in the marriage you were in the
production of Stormy Weather, which was of
course the all-black production. This was, I guess, probably your most
famous dance routine.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes. [laughs]
-
WHITE
- This film was presented as sort of wartime escapist entertainment,
because the war had begun, and people wanted to be entertained, so it
actually fit the bill very nicely. Of course, that was with Lena Horne
and Bill "Bojangles" Robinson—
-
NICHOLAS
- And Cab Calloway.
-
WHITE
- Of course, Cab Calloway.
-
NICHOLAS
- Fats Waller.
-
WHITE
- Yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- And Katherine Dunham.
-
WHITE
- Yes, lots and lots of stars, yeah. And it's interesting, because in a
couple of different articles that I read it says that audiences
routinely assumed—which was, of course, incorrect—that the dance
sequence was a product of trick photography.
-
NICHOLAS
- [laughs] People always thought that. Especially Orchestra Wives, running up the wall.
-
WHITE
- This is true.
-
NICHOLAS
- I would talk to a lot of people and they would say, "That was trick
photography." "No, no it wasn't. It was real." They couldn't understand
how that could be done and not be trick photography.
-
WHITE
- Right, it was fascinating to watch.
-
NICHOLAS
- I know! Every time I see it, it's fascinating. [White laughs] And we did
it!
-
WHITE
- Yes. So what was that experience like for Stormy
Weather? How did your experience in making that film differ
from other films that you had been in previously?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, every film that we would approach, we always wanted to do
something different, so Nick Castle got together with us and we figured
out what routine we would do that would be different from everything
else that we had done. It was so funny. When we first arrived there on
the movie set, Clarence Robinson was the choreographer for the whole
movie. He did all the choreography for the movie. And he's talking to me
and telling me about what he wanted us to do, and I said "No" to myself.
"No, that's not it. We have to do something better than that." So I got
in touch with Nick Castle's manager and I said, "I'd like for Nick to
come over here and help us with this new film called Stormy Weather. You get together with the
agents and all of that and the money situation. We want him to come and
do this thing with us." Nick came over and we found out what song we
would be dancing to, "Jumpin' Jive." We got together and made up this
routine to this song that Cab was singing. We arranged it where Cab
would sing it first and we'd be sitting at a table like we were guests
there at the club. He'd come over and start singing to us. [performs
some scatting] And we'd answer him [scats] that way, and that's when we
jumped on the table and jumped off the table and came over there. Then
we hit his hands, like "Give me some skin." And then we went right into
the dance. [sings] "Doo-doo dee doo-doo doom doom."
-
WHITE
- I understand that Fred Astaire called it "The greatest dance number ever
seen on film."
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh yes, yes.
-
WHITE
- That's quite a compliment, coming from him.
-
NICHOLAS
- That's a great compliment. When he said that to me, I said, "Oh, Mr.
Astaire, that's a wonderful compliment, coming from you." And he said,
"Mr. Nicholas, I'm telling you that because it's true." I said, "Well,
thank you again."
-
WHITE
- So I suppose that the notoriety from this film caused you and your
brother to become even more popular, both nationally and
internationally. Basically, this film sealed your fate in the film
industry, I understand.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes. [laughs]
-
WHITE
- I also understand that during this same period of time, you and your
wife separated, in 1943.
-
NICHOLAS
- No, not right away. No, we were still trying to make it turn out to be a
good marriage. Let me see. My first son [Anthony Nicholas] was born in
1945. And my second son [Paul Nicholas] was born in 1950. So you see, we
were still together. The film Stormy
Weather was made in 1943. We were still together.
-
WHITE
- Had you separated, though, throughout that period of time?
-
NICHOLAS
- We separated in 1955, so we were still trying to make this marriage
work.
-
WHITE
- Right. Yeah, when I said separated, I didn't mean divorced. I mean just
maybe—
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. No, we weren't divorced yet, because she said that she would let
me know. I would be the first one to know when we would be divorced and
when she would get married again. I was in Spain, in Madrid, Spain, when
I got a cable from her. And she said, "Divorce is final." In 1955.
-
WHITE
- I see. Do you feel that perhaps your hectic schedule or the fact that
you worked in an industry where you were exposed to so many different
people—
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, that's what did it.
-
WHITE
- Women, I'm sure, would lay themselves at your feet—
-
NICHOLAS
- That's what did it, yeah.
-
WHITE
- That caused tension in the marriage?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, it did. Wherever I'd go, there would always be these ladies who
would come backstage to see us—in every country you could think of:
Spain, England, Sweden, France, North Africa, Asia. [White laughs] Every
continent. I'm exposed to this, and what am I going to say? "Girls, you
can't come in here, I'm married." [mutual laughter]
-
WHITE
- The temptations were too great, I suppose.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, the temptation was there. And all of them, they were lovely. Not
as lovely as my wife, but the temptation was there. Whenever they'd come
around I'd tell them right away, "Listen, I'm married." I had pictures
on my desk or in my dressing room or at the hotel, and I said, "This is
my wife." And they— [he shrugs]
-
WHITE
- That probably made you even more desirable.
-
NICHOLAS
- I guess it did. I guess it did, because they kept pushing all the time.
I couldn't push them away. [mutual laughter]
-
WHITE
- You couldn't, huh?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, and [puts on disgruntled voice] my wife finds out about all this.
Oh, while I was in America, I was a good father, a good husband.
Everything was great. But when I started traveling, that's when
everything exploded.
-
WHITE
- Oh my goodness. So she stopped traveling with you as much.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, she didn't go with me all the time. When she was with me,
everything was fine. If it was in Europe, in America, wherever we'd go,
New York, Chicago, everything was great, it was fine. But once we were
separated that way, she'd be in Los Angeles, and I'd be in Paris or
wherever.
-
WHITE
- That's difficult for most marriages, though, the long distance.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yeah. I think that has happened with a lot of marriages of people in
show business, other entertainers who were separated from their wives.
During that particular time, [they are] going to foreign countries and
the wife is still here. And if the wife isn't with them they go astray,
or whatever you may say.
-
WHITE
- Interesting. You had an interruption, of course, in your career earlier
in the mid-forties, when you were drafted.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, that was the unluckiest day of my life. [White laughs] Oh, I was so
unhappy. Oh, when they drafted me into that—army. Oh, my goodness. But I
adjusted myself. "Well, I'm in here. Let's make the best of it."
-
WHITE
- Sure.
-
NICHOLAS
- But the first place that they drafted me was in Camp Van Dorn,
Mississippi—the worst place in the world. Oh, jeepers. It was awful and
I was in a laundry company. What they did was they would wash clothes
for the soldiers who were in combat. Naturally, they would be crawling
on their stomachs and all of these outfits would get dirty, so we'd have
to wash those. We were behind the lines. We weren't fighting or
anything. We just had to wash these clothes for these soldiers. That's
what was happening in Camp Van Dorn, Mississippi. Naturally, to keep up
my morale I would entertain. I'd entertain soldiers, and so the officer,
the head officer of this unit that I was with, liked me. He said I was
keeping up the morale of all the soldiers, [but] I wanted to get out of
that place. I would always correspond with my valet, Lorenzo Hill, and
he was in the army, too. But he was in Fort Huachuca [Arizona]. That's
where he was, and we were writing to each other and he said, "This is
where you should be." He was in special service and there were a lot of
other entertainers there who were in special service, and that's what
they did, entertain the soldiers. They didn't have to go "hut, two,
three, four"—marching and carrying the rifle and doing all those things
that a soldier does in the army. Well, that's what I was doing besides
washing the clothes, I was "hut, two, three, four," marching, and all
those things.
-
WHITE
- Where was Harold?
-
NICHOLAS
- He was doing his thing. He made a couple of movies before— Yes, he made
movies called Carolina Blues and Reckless Age. They didn't draft him. I'll
tell you about that story, too. So that's what he was doing. I had a
furlough to come to Los Angeles while he was making this film Carolina Blues, which starred Ann Miller and
Kay Kyser and his orchestra. I was there on the set while he was working
and he was doing a song called "Mister Beebe." It was a big production
number and he'd open up with this song. He was dressed in a high hat and
a special outfit that he wore, something like tails. He was singing
"Mister Beebe" and he danced with everybody. He was with June Richmond,
who was a singer. He danced with Marie Bryant and Anise Boyer, and he
also danced with the Four Step Brothers. It was his number, he was the
star of this production number. The thing I told you about what he did
in Babes in Arms, where he'd slide through
the girls' legs, well the Four Step Brothers would line up back to back
like that and he'd go right through their legs.
-
WHITE
- So he was having a measure of success himself here.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yeah, he was doing well.
-
WHITE
- Your wife and son at that time were still living in the house on Van
Ness?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes, they were. And so there I was, suffering in Mississippi, and when
this company commander didn't want to let me go— I went to his office
and he said, "You don't want to go to Fort Huachuca. Stay here. You're
good morale for my soldiers and you're doing all right." I said, "Yes, I
am doing all right, but I think I can do better in Fort Huachuca."
[mutual laughter] Then he turned [my transfer request] down.
-
WHITE
- He turned you down?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, he turned it down. He said, "No, you're not going." Then my friend
Lorenzo Hill started writing to Washington, D.C., telling them about me
and that it'd be better for me to be in Fort Huachuca. So an order came
from Washington to this commander, the papers saying, "Let him go."
1.11. TAPE NUMBER: VI, SIDE ONE
JUNE 1, 2000
-
WHITE
- We're almost halfway through the year 2000.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes, this is the sixth month of the year 2000. Well, many things are
going to be happening, as far as the Nicholas Brothers [Fayard Nicholas
and Harold Nicholas] are concerned. We're going to different places,
like Detroit, St. Paul, St. Louis, and my brother will be [inaudible] on
these three occasions. I think we're going to St. Louis in August, but I
don't know what's happening in September. October—Catherine [Hopkins
Nicholas] and I may go to Paris to celebrate her birthday, which is in
November. November 2. In December we're going to Washington, D.C. for
the Kennedy Center Honors. We're invited there every year because they
honored us in 1991. You remember that, don't you?
-
WHITE
- Yes, indeed.
-
NICHOLAS
- Did you see it on TV?
-
WHITE
- Yes, I saw it on videotape.
-
NICHOLAS
- The videotape of it, yes. And so now Catherine and I were thinking
about— Maybe we could arrange it this way— We will fly to Washington,
D.C. in December. It's usually December the fifth until the seventh in
Washington, D.C. for the Kennedy Center Honors, then we'll take a plane
from Washington, D.C. to Paris, and spend in Paris there maybe a week
and then fly back to Los Angeles. So we're thinking about maybe we could
arrange that, so we will get all this vacation that we were planning
before, because we were supposed to go to Paris May 21, but it didn't
work out, because it was going to be with my brother and me and my
brother's wife [Rigmor Newman], and my wife, Catherine. So Catherine
said, "Why don't we go anyway and perhaps do it this way: Los Angeles,
Washington, D.C., Paris, then back to L.A."
-
WHITE
- Oh, that sounds like lots of fun.
-
NICHOLAS
- That will be a lot of fun.
-
WHITE
- It sounds like the year 2000 is going to be full of adventure and
excitement for you. Well, let's see, the last time we spoke, last
Thursday, which I believe was the twenty-fourth of May, at the end of
our conversation you had just finished talking about the fact that when
you were in the service at Camp Van Dorn in Mississippi, how you used to
entertain the soldiers and that you had a deep desire to go to [Fort]
Huachuca [Arizona]. You had spoken with your superior and he basically
told you no, because he wanted you stay there to help entertain and keep
morale up.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, keep the morale up of the soldiers. Well, who's going to keep my
morale up?
-
WHITE
- Exactly. So you indicated that Lorenzo Hill, a friend of yours, had
written to Washington, D.C. and the order came back from Washington to
let you go.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, right.
-
WHITE
- Okay. Can you tell me what happened from that point?
-
NICHOLAS
- I remember when the order came from Washington, D.C. and the company
[commander], he received it, and he called me to the office and he says,
"I see they want you to go to Fort Huachuca." I said, "Yeah, that's
right." And he says, "You don't want to go." I says, "Yes, I do." I
said, "I want to go because there I'll be in special service and I'll be
doing the things that I've done in my life in show business. I'll be
entertaining and that's all. I won't have to be marching and washing
clothes, like I'm doing here in Mississippi. That's why I want to go."
And he said, "Well, we will really miss you." I said, "Well, I've had a
nice time. I'm happy that the soldiers enjoyed my performance and if it
helped in any way, I'm glad. But now I'm going where I'm going to be
glad." [mutual laughter] And so he said, "I wish you luck." Well, I got
there and I met all my friends there—a lot of the guys who were in show
business, like Eugene Jackson and—let me see—the trombone player who
used to play in the Duke Ellington orchestra. I can't remember his name.
Orlando Robeson was there. I don't know if you know of Orlando Robeson.
He was a singer. He had one of those high voices when he'd sing "Trees."
Remember that song? [singing] "I think that I shall never see a poem as
lovely as a tree." Well, he sang that song and it was real high. He was
there, entertaining the soldiers. That's all I was doing, was
entertaining the soldiers who were going overseas, like maybe the 93rd
Division or the 92nd Division. And we would always rehearse different
shows that we would do. That's the only thing that I was doing. I didn't
have to make bed check. I didn't have to make reveille. I'd go to bed
when I would want to, get up when I would want to, and just have a ball.
When the company commander would want to see us at his office, well, we
had to be there, so he would tell us, "Fellahs, this is what we're going
to do. We're going to rehearse a nice show for these soldiers who will
be going overseas in a week or so, so we have to get ready for that." So
that's the only work that I was doing in Fort Huachuca, just
entertaining and rehearsing for these shows and it was great. It was
great. Then I met one of the soldiers who was stationed there, who was
always there. He was a first sergeant, and he was there with his wife,
and they had a cottage and they had a beautiful little baby. And they
had an extra room and I said, "Ahh." And I said, "This would be great.
I'll call my wife and ask if— Could I stay in your extra room?" He said,
"Sure, that would be great." So I called my wife and sent for her to
come to Fort Huachuca, and we stayed with this couple and we had fun
with the baby and it was great. It was just like being home, because all
I was doing was entertaining soldiers and being there with my wife and
with my friends, this married couple with their baby.
-
WHITE
- It was as pleasant as it possibly could have been?
-
NICHOLAS
- It was pleasant. It was great, it was great. My wife at that time was
Geraldine. Before she married me, she was Geraldine Pate. Then she
became Geraldine Nicholas. And it was wonderful, wonderful. And so I was
there for quite a while and everything was fine. I'd go to the PX [post
exchange] there and have my ice-cream and my Coca-Colas and whatever
else I'd want—potato chips. Then I would get sandwiches and something
like that. So everything was going real well.
-
WHITE
- When were you actually discharged?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, let me tell you what happened. Everything was going
well—entertaining the soldiers and getting up when I wanted to, going to
bed when I wanted to, and all of a sudden there came an order from
Washington, D.C. that every man will soldier. So that meant that we had
to soldier, too. All the entertainers, we'd have to get up for reveille,
and stand up like all the soldiers lined up in a line, and then the
sergeant would say, "Thomas." And he'd say, "Here." "Smith." "Here."
"Nicholas." "Here." And that type of thing we had to do. We were dressed
up in these uniforms where we would have to carry a rifle and [we were]
marching, just like the real soldiers. Before we were just being
[inaudible] in our khaki. We had to put on these outfits and the big
boots and start "hut, two, three, four, hut, two, three—" Going through
all of that, and with this heavy rifle. Oh, jeepers! [White laughs]
Damn. I said, "What happened?" Everything was going along so well and
then this thing happened. Then one day they were telling us that they
were going on some kind of a— I forget the correct name of it. You would
have to crawl on your stomach and they would shoot live bullets—machine
gun bullets—over your head. I asked them— I said, "These will be
blanks." They said, "No, they're not blanks when they're shooting over
your head." They said, "You must stay down. Don't stand up, because if
you do you'll get killed. Just stay there." He told me, "The reason why
they use real bullets is because they want you to get used to that
sound. You know that sound. If they're blanks, there won't be that
sound." I said, "Well, tell me some of the things." And they said, "Well
there have been some tragedies where some guys would stand up, they're
so nervous and they're just frantic." They would stand up and they would
get shot and they would die. He said, "That's why you must stay on your
stomach as you're crawling, crawling towards this machine gun, as they
fire." I said, "That's not for me. Oh, no!" So I got sick. [laughs]
-
WHITE
- Oh, did you?
-
NICHOLAS
- I got sick. I went to my barracks and I just— I played the part. I got
the idea and said, "I'm going to have lemon juice in the morning and
orange juice in the evening." So I told the guys, "Go out and get me two
jelly jars. Take all the jelly out of the jars, then squeeze the lemon
in one of the jars, then squeeze orange juice in the other jar. And put
it by the window sill there so it will get real cold." So that's what I
was doing, drinking this lemon juice in the morning and the orange juice
in the evening. I got so skinny— Yeah. [mutual laughter] And so one day
I was feeling real hungry. I said, "Here, guy, take this money. Go get
me a hamburger." So I got the hamburger and then I was satisfied, but I
went back onto the lemon juice and the orange juice and I was getting so
thin. The chaplain came by to see me and asked me, "What's the matter,
Fayard?" And I said, "I can't make it with this army. I don't like the
food. It's just not for me. I'm very unhappy here." He was trying to
make me feel better, and I said, "No, I can't stand it." So they sent me
to the hospital and there I was in there with this pretty little nurse
and she'd bathe me, and boy oh boy— [mutual laughter] Things happened.
And so, like a lot of guys said, "Oh, I really hate [getting up in the
morning]." I'm happy when morning comes. And they said, "Why?" I said,
"That's bath time." Every day, bath time in the morning. So I got used
to that, too. "Oh, hooray for bath time!"
-
WHITE
- How long did you stay in the hospital?
-
NICHOLAS
- Not long. So I was there and they would feed me good food. Oh, boy. And
I loved it and so I started eating. They would take me and weigh me. I
started gaining weight. I was gaining this weight every day, so they
sent me back.
-
WHITE
- Oh, no. Your plan didn't work.
-
NICHOLAS
- And I said, "Oh no. My plan isn't working." So what did I do? I went
back on the lemon juice and the orange juice. It didn't discourage me.
The doctor, this officer who examined me, he liked me and he was very
friendly to a lady [Alice Keyes, who] was writing for this newspaper,
the Los Angeles Sentinel. She wrote for
that paper and she was friendly with my wife, Geraldine. So they came
there to the hospital to see me. They said to me, "Everything's going to
be all right." I said, "Oh yes?" "Yeah, you're getting out of here."
Because this officer was going to help me, but in the right way, though.
There I was, still playing the role. And this nurse, she knew what was
happening. Every time she would see me, she would laugh. And I still was
acting sick. So my wife and Alice Keyes said everything's going to be
all right. There was an officer who came there. He was called the
inspector general. He doesn't have to be a general, but at that time he
was acting like a general. He could be a colonel. So he was there. This
doctor, this officer who was a captain, had this inspector general to
come to see me. When the inspector general came in with some other
officers, and I'm lying in bed [makes groaning and grumbling sounds] and
so the doctor said, "Sit up." So I sat up. He said, "This is the
inspector general. He came by to see you." Okay. He said, "Let's go out
on the patio." So I struggled to get out of the bed, and they were
sitting outside talking and I was sitting there listening to them, and
all of a sudden my leg just goes—[demonstrates] like this. Just shaking.
And I had to stop it, because I was very nervous, yeah, and the leg was
still going. So I had to just hold it, because if I turned it loose, it
would still go jumping like that. After they finished talking the doctor
said, "Fayard, you can go back to your bed." So I went back to my bed
and I guess they were deciding what they were going to do with me. Then
a couple of days later my wife came to say, "You're going to be
discharged."
-
WHITE
- Oh, my.
-
NICHOLAS
- Uh-huh. I said, "O happy day." And so I got the papers and everything
was signed. Honorable discharge.
-
WHITE
- Terrific.
-
NICHOLAS
- And I got it. I had this gown on that they'd give you at the hospital.
Now it's time to get dressed. My clothes were so big on me—
-
WHITE
- Oh, really?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yeah. Lucky I had a belt, so I could just—
-
WHITE
- You had played the role well.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, I played real well. I was so skinny— Oh gee, I must have gone down
to 95 pounds.
-
WHITE
- Oh, my goodness.
-
NICHOLAS
- They were giving me some money each month. It was only ten dollars. I
was getting that ten dollars each month. I had to go to—I think it
was—the Veteran's [Administration] Hospital here in Los Angeles. So I
would have to go there to see how I was. They would examine me, and when
I got there they found out I had gained weight. That's no problem. I can
gain weight anytime I want to. I can lose it when I want to. No problem
there. It doesn't mean that I'm sick. They found out that I was gaining
weight, so I didn't get the ten dollars anymore.
-
WHITE
- After you were discharged you and your wife came back to Los Angeles.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, we came back to Los Angeles and I got in touch with my brother and
his wife at that time, Dorothy Dandridge. They were married.
-
WHITE
- You were still living on Van Ness [Avenue] at that time?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, I was still living on Van Ness. And there I was with my wife, [and
I was like] a skinny little boy. My brother has always been smaller than
me, but now I'm smaller than him.
-
WHITE
- Oh, my goodness.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah.
-
WHITE
- So then you just sort of got settled back in Los Angeles, got
reacclimated to the area?
-
NICHOLAS
- Right, I got settled back. We were still on the contract with 20th
Century- Fox.
-
WHITE
- Right, you did The Pirate in 1948.
-
NICHOLAS
- That was at Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer.
-
WHITE
- Oh, it was? Okay. Now what year were you discharged? Was it '47 or '46?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, '44.
-
WHITE
- You said Tony [Anthony Nicholas] was born after you were discharged.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, in '45. Tony was born then. We got married in '42, Geraldine and
I. Then, after I was discharged out the army, I guess I got a lot of
strength and— [mutual laughter]
-
WHITE
- I suppose so.
-
NICHOLAS
- And then my first son was born, Tony.
-
WHITE
- So you finished up your contract at 20th Century-Fox. Your next big hit
was at MGM [Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer] with The
Pirate.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, right. With Judy Garland and Gene Kelly. But we did a tour in the
South—one-nighters. Did I tell you that before?
-
WHITE
- You mean during this period of time, just before you did The Pirate?
-
NICHOLAS
- Before we did it, yeah.
-
WHITE
- Actually, you did.
-
NICHOLAS
- Let me see. Yes. Now I'm trying to think, did we do those one-nighters
before we did the show St. Louis Woman?
Let me see, I think we did. I think we did those one-nighters, because
it was in 1946.
-
WHITE
- Right. You told me about that. We thought that a lot of your parts [in
movies] had been cut out in the South, but that wasn't in fact the case.
-
NICHOLAS
- That wasn't the case. They did not cut us out. There was no reason to
cut us out.
-
WHITE
- Exactly, yeah, we talked about that during our last interview.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. After that we did St. Louis Woman,
which was in 1946 with a great cast. Pearl Bailey was in it and Rex
Ingram was in it and Juanita Hall was in it. Remember her?
-
WHITE
- Juanita Hall?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. She was in South Pacific, the movie.
Remember, she played [Bloody Mary]. Did you see the film?
-
WHITE
- I did not.
-
NICHOLAS
- In fact, she was in the show South
Pacific, and I think she was the only original actor who was in
the film, because Mary Martin was in [the stage version of] South Pacific and this Italian singer, [Ezio]
Pinza. And so she was in St. Louis Woman
with us and then she was in South Pacific,
the stage show, and also in the motion pictures, playing the same role.
Juanita Hall. And she also was in the first movie that had all Chinese
actors.
-
WHITE
- Okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- What was the name of that film? Was it Flower Drum
Song?
-
WHITE
- Could be.
-
NICHOLAS
- I think that was the name of it. And this girl, oh, jeepers. The first
film I saw her in was [The World of Suzie
Wong] with William Holden and she played a Chinese girl. In
fact, she is Chinese, but a beautiful, ooh, beautiful Chinese. And they
were lovers, William Holden and this girl. What is her name? Goddammit,
I forget names. [Nancy Kwan]
-
WHITE
- That's okay. So now these were some of your fellow actors that you were
working with at this period of time?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah.
-
WHITE
- Before you actually changed your contract over?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh yeah, before we went to MGM. When we were in St. Louis Woman, Gene Kelly came by to see us and at this
time he was in the navy and he saw the show. He came backstage to our
dressing room and he said, "Fellahs, we have got to do a movie together,
but at the moment we haven't found the right story." And he said, "We're
going to do it, we're going to do it." And we said, "Yes, that would be
great. We can work together." Arthur Freed, who produced most of Gene
Kelly's films, called him into his office one day and said, "Gene, I
just found a story. Now you can work with the Nicholas Brothers. It's
called The Pirate." And Gene was so happy
because he always wanted to work with us.
-
WHITE
- Yes, yes. In some of the literature it says that—like you just said—he
wanted to make a film with you all for a very long time.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, right.
-
WHITE
- But he refused to be in a film with you where you and your brother were
playing butlers or chauffeurs or something like that.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yeah, nothing like that. No, he didn't want any part of that, no.
-
WHITE
- He didn't want any part of racist ideology. So then they finally found a
story.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, and it happens in the Caribbean, so it was the right story to have
us in. He had this group of actors who were traveling with him all over
the Caribbean and we were a part of the troupe.
-
WHITE
- Now you had— Once your contract finished at 20th Century-Fox, that was
the last bit of business you had with that studio, then did you sign a
contract with MGM?
-
NICHOLAS
- No, we only signed a contract with MGM for that movie, for that one
film. We didn't do any other films, just that one that we did. And we
were on that film for a long time, oh yes.
-
WHITE
- Was that an enjoyable experience, working with Gene Kelly?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, we had so much fun.
-
WHITE
- And Judy Garland.
-
NICHOLAS
- With Judy Garland, and we all became very good friends. Gene loved to
give parties at his house and he'd invite all these different
celebrities over there to play games.
-
WHITE
- Where did he live? [tape recorder off]
-
NICHOLAS
- In Beverly Hills.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- At his mansion in Beverly Hills, and he loved to have his friends over
and invite them all over to his house and at that time he was married
to— What was her name—his wife at that time? Betsy something— Betsy
[Blair] I think. I'm not sure, but I think her name was Betsy [Blair].
And she was an actress too; she did movies. In fact, she did one of the
Academy Award [Best Motion Picture] movies, Marty.
-
WHITE
- Okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- That won for best picture, I think, and also for best actor. She was the
girlfriend of Marty in the film. The star, Ernest Borgnine, won for best
actor and the picture won for best picture. And she played the
girlfriend of Marty. That was the name of the film, Marty. And so—
-
WHITE
- She was Gene Kelly's wife?
-
NICHOLAS
- Wife, yeah. I think his first wife, yeah.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- And we were there— Let's see, oh, we get to his home and knock on the
door, and Gene Kelly opens the door and there we are. And Judy Garland
was there, Ricardo Montalban was there. You remember him, don't you?
-
WHITE
- Yes, indeed.
-
NICHOLAS
- With his wife [Georgiana Young], who was the sister of Loretta
Young—yeah, they were married. And there were other celebrities. Oh, and
Vincente Minnelli, the director, who directed The
Pirate, he was there. Judy Garland's husband, yeah. And we
were all there and as he opened the door, there was my wife, Geraldine,
and my brother's wife, Dorothy Dandridge, and Gene looked and he said,
"Oh my goodness. Gee, you've got some beautiful wives." We introduced
our wives to him and he said, "Gee, this is great, you two brothers have
beautiful wives. Sometimes, when brothers have their wives, one of them
has the lemon, but you guys— Both of your wives are beautiful."
-
WHITE
- You guys were lucky.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, yeah.
-
WHITE
- Was there a lot of intermingling and that sort of thing in his home?
Were there other people of color, for instance?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, we were playing games and Gene loved to play games and so we were
all together. We were playing kind of a game, I think it's called
charades or something like that.
-
WHITE
- Sure, charades.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, we were doing that. It was like we weren't playing at all. It was
Gene and his wife. They were the ones who were doing all the answers.
And we were just standing. I'm just standing like this [demonstrates]
because I wasn't guessing anything.
-
WHITE
- Were there other African-Americans that would come to his parties—say,
that worked at MGM Studios?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, I don't recall any. I don't recall any— There could have been, but I
don't remember. Because Gene, he was that way. He didn't have a
prejudiced bone in his body. He just liked everybody, like [Nicholas's
current wife] Catherine—just loved everybody. We're human beings. That's
what we are—human beings. And when you see each other, you don't think
about color. You just think about that person.
-
WHITE
- Right, of course. Just curious if in fact he would intermingle with
other African American stars at that time or have them to his home.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh yes. Well, during the movie The Pirate
there were a lot of— What do they call us now? African Americans?
-
WHITE
- Yes, yes, African Americans.
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, I don't like that. Just call me an American. I was born in this
country. I don't know nothing about Africa.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, because I wish they'd make up their minds. First they were calling
us "Colored," then "Negro" and "black" and something else. Now they've
decided to call us "African American." Why are they calling us African
American? They don't say Irish American, German American, Swedish
American.
-
WHITE
- Right, we talked about this.
-
NICHOLAS
- I told you about that? Yeah. So why don't they just call all of us
"American"? And then they [say] Mexican American. When you say Mexican,
that's his nationality. It's not a race. It's his nationality, being
Mexican. Rita Hayworth was born in Mexico and her nationality was
Mexican, but her parents came from Spain.
-
WHITE
- Right. I guess it's just a matter of how certain people want to identify
themselves.
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, I'll say "I'm an American." That's how I'm going to identify
myself. You can look at me and you can see what I am. You don't have to
put that label on me. [laughs]
-
WHITE
- Okay. So now you did the movie with Gene Kelly. I understand that The Pirate was actually the last film
appearance of you and Harold as a team?
-
NICHOLAS
- As a team. The last film appearance of my brother and me as a team. Of
course, we did other things separately.
-
WHITE
- Right, of course.
-
NICHOLAS
- I made a motion picture without him, called The
Liberation of L.B. Jones.
-
WHITE
- Yeah, I'm familiar with that one.
-
NICHOLAS
- And then he made movies like— Uptown Saturday
Night he did by himself.
-
WHITE
- Now, just in looking at some of your literature, some notes indicated
that you and your brother had been a witness to the minority experience
in a television and film industry that often promulgated sort of
stinging racial stereotypes and withheld stardom from many minority
performers who actually had very extraordinary gifts. Back in those days
not very many black Americans were getting starring roles, because the
codes were very strictly enforced in Hollywood.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes, yes. They were not really starring black actors in these
movies. It was always the white actors and the black actors would be a
part of that story, but not the real star. But today— Oh, it's a
different story today, because the black actors are there for box
office. They are box office today, like Eddie Murphy, with his Beverly Hills Cop, or whatever it is. He was
the number one box office attraction in motion pictures all over the
world.
-
WHITE
- Yeah, things are changing.
-
NICHOLAS
- Changing, really changing.
-
WHITE
- Yes, we've made a lot of progress.
-
NICHOLAS
- Like I told you, whenever these stars see us—like Eddie Murphy or,
what's the other one, Denzel Washington, Diana Ross— You name all these
wonderful actors of color today who star in motion pictures, and people,
they pay to see them—black and white pay to see them. And whenever they
see me they're so happy to meet me. They say, "You paved the way for us.
You are the pioneers. You made it possible for us to do the things we do
today, because of what you have done in the past." And they'll say to
me, "Now, if you guys were younger and could do the same thing in movies
today that you did in the thirties and the forties and the fifties, no
telling how much money you would be making and you'd also be starring in
films. You would be dancing with Ginger Rogers."
-
WHITE
- You certainly would. Anyone you choose.
-
NICHOLAS
- Anyone I choose.
-
WHITE
- Now, there was a quote in Ebony magazine
in 1983. You were quoted as saying that although old movies provided you
with immense popularity, both brothers resent the fact that you were
never allowed to do anything else in the films.
-
NICHOLAS
- No, just singing and dancing.
-
WHITE
- Exactly. For instance, Lena Horne only sang and when that trend faded,
people in Hollywood weren't very—
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, they thought it faded. It didn't.
-
WHITE
- When they thought it faded, they weren't that enthusiastic about hiring
you in other roles. Another quote said that of course you guys were
barred from some of those leading roles, and you watched as other white
dancers became stars, such as Charles "Honi" Coles, etc. In a 1980
Newsweek article you were quoted as
saying, "I felt history did me wrong. Had I been white, I would probably
have had the same opportunity as Fred Astaire or Gene Kelly."
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh yeah, and I've heard a lot of white people say that to me, because
they liked what we did in motion pictures. They've said to me, "If you
were white, Fayard, you would have been starring in motion pictures,
much like Fred Astaire and Gene Kelly. But what you have done in motion
pictures is great because it made you famous all over the world."
-
WHITE
- International star.
-
NICHOLAS
- International. Just for those five minutes in each motion picture that
we have done. We would headline everywhere, in Europe or wherever it
might be. And sometimes we would do concerts where it would only be the
Nicholas Brothers and the band—a big band and the Nicholas brothers. And
because of our versatility, we could stay on stage like an hour or an
hour and a half. Sometimes we might stretch it to two hours, because we
would have a little intermission. It would just be the Nicholas
Brothers, entertaining the audience. We became very successful doing
that.
-
WHITE
- And like you said, it really set the path and the tone for actors to
come in the future— Actors, and dancers as well, performers,
entertainers in general. You really are pioneers, mavericks of sorts.
-
NICHOLAS
- And like I said, tap dancing never did die out because we always did it,
where we went. The audience just loved it. They loved to see us
tap-dancing. So I was saying to my brother, "What is this bad propaganda
about 'tap dancing has died'?" I said, "Listen to those people out
there. They can't get enough of it. They love tap dancing, so I just
couldn't understand— I think I told you, I think television had a lot to
do with it.
-
WHITE
- Yes, absolutely. In my notes there is some discussion about the end of
the 1940s. I guess the unfairness of segregation had taken its toll, but
black entertainers were beginning to rethink their routines. Movies, for
instance, that jumped from one dance number to another were sort of
inappropriate and so was blackface at that point in time. The audiences,
they wanted the old stereotype, what they considered, "The oldtime tap
dancing." They thought that acrobatics were no longer really in place,
but you and Harold, of course, kept doing what you did best.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, we kept doing what— We incorporated the acrobatics with the
tapping and we would throw in a little ballet into it and eccentric
[dance style] and all these things.
-
WHITE
- So at a time when other black Americans were sort of changing their
routine according to the times, you and Harold stuck with your same
routine throughout this period into the forties and early fifties, and
you still had audiences that were still enthusiastic for your work?
-
NICHOLAS
- Always. It's so wonderful— The wonderful thing about television now is
that they show all of our old films on television and the generations of
today are seeing these films. Before they saw these films, they were
doing the rock and roll and the rapping and all these other things,
like—what do they call it?—hip-hop?
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- So when they see us on TV in these old films, it's like they're seeing
something new, like they never saw anything like that before. And they
like seeing that. Now they're trying to start learning tap dancing and
they hear jazz on the radio and they buy these records of Duke Ellington
and Cab Calloway and Glenn Miller and Benny Goodman and Count Basie and
all the other jazz musicians. This is something new to them and they
like it better than all that jazz they were listening to before.
-
WHITE
- There's a lot more substance.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes. And so, like I said, jazz hasn't died. Tap dancing hasn't died and
the generation today is getting hip to it, as you might say.
-
WHITE
- Absolutely. On that note, we're going to go ahead and turn the tape
over.
-
NICHOLAS
- All right.
1.12. TAPE NUMBER: VI, SIDE TWO
JUNE 1, 2000
-
WHITE
- It was known that in Hollywood, back in the forties, whenever they
thought they were going to have trouble with a movie in terms of its box
office appeal, they would get the brothers to do a number in it.
-
NICHOLAS
- You mean the Nicholas Brothers?
-
WHITE
- The Nicholas Brothers.
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, it just happened. It just happened. It seemed as though when they
put the Nicholas Brothers in these movies for only five minutes it made
the movie more successful, because a lot of people would go see these
movies just to see the Nicholas Brothers.
-
WHITE
- Right, that's what I understand.
-
NICHOLAS
- Right. When that Down Argentine Way came
out, that really did it.
-
WHITE
- Sure, that made you superstars.
-
NICHOLAS
- People would go to the theater to see our performance in Down Argentine Way. And some people would
find out when we were going on in the film. So they'd find out, they'd
go there to see our number and then walk out of there. That's all they
wanted to see was us, that was all they wanted to see.
-
WHITE
- Right. Well, as you mentioned a moment ago, when television actually
came to the fore the Hollywood musical extravaganza became sort of the
first victim of the economy. More attention in general was just directed
toward the television industry. So I understand that you jumped on that
bandwagon—you, and your brother as well—and you performed on a number of
TV shows, like the Ed Sullivan show.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, we did a number of TV shows—the Ed Sullivan show, Jackie Gleason,
the Frank Sinatra show.
-
WHITE
- [Bud] Abbott and [Lou] Costello.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, Abbott and Costello. Did you see Hollywood
Palace?
-
WHITE
-
The Hollywood Palace? Yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, we did Hollywood—
-
WHITE
- Ebony Showcase [Theatre]?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, Ebony.
-
WHITE
- Nick Stewart.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. We did, let me see, what were those shows? Oh, when Ebony magazine had their TV shows—
-
WHITE
- Right, okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- I think we did about four shows with them.
-
WHITE
- Okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- There was no more vaudeville, so TV— We were doing vaudeville on TV.
-
WHITE
- Right. How was that experience in comparison to doing it in film or in
the theater?
-
NICHOLAS
- We felt comfortable wherever we were performing. It's just it was a new
medium. It was different from the theater and from the movies because
some of those TV shows we did, it was live.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- Ooh, did I hate live television!
-
WHITE
- Is that right?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, my goodness. I remember when we had just returned to this country,
and we were in Manhattan for Milton Berle's TV show. Now at that time he
was known as Mr. Television. And we were still under contract at the
William Morris Agency. He said, "Fellahs, you've got to do the Milton
Berle show. It's the number one show in America. People will stop going
out, going to the theater, going to see movies. They stay home on
Tuesday night to see the Milton Berle show, so you've got to do this
show." They knew we'd be seen by millions of people. We got there and we
did the show with Milton Berle. As we were doing our act, Milton said,
"Well, I want you to do something like you do in the movies. I want you
to go up these stairs and get up on this platform and jump off into a
split." I said, "Sure, that's easy." So this would be the last trick
that we would do. We get up there, dance up the steps and we jump down.
Now, we go down into the split. My brother gets up, but I'm still down.
I'm having a hard time getting out of the split. And my brother is
looking down there at me and he says, "What are you doing down there?" I
said, "I'm trying to get up, man!" [mutual laughter] So we made a
routine out of it.
-
WHITE
- Oh, did you? Okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, and so I finally get up and then we finish the act. It was live.
Now, see, if it is a movie and I jump and I can't get up, cut and do it
over again. So that's why I hated television.
-
WHITE
- Oh, sure.
-
NICHOLAS
- Live television, that is. I was so happy when videotape came, because
with videotape, we could do it over again.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- It's not live.
-
WHITE
- The expectations are different.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yeah. And some people liked that, but I never did like that because—
Like a dramatic show, I remember, I think it was Playhouse 90 , one of those shows. Now there was a scene
where two guys were in the living room of this apartment and they were
talking. One of them pulls out a pistol and BAM!!!, shoots him dead.
WHAM!!! He's on the floor, dead. And so there he's wondering—the guy who
shot him—what to do and he's looking to see if anybody's around, if
anybody heard it. He's looking out the door and he thinks, "Oh, my
goodness, my girlfriend is coming here. I've got to do something about
this." Now, all this time he's doing like this. [demonstrates] Guess
what? The camera is on the dead man. The dead man is out like this.
[demonstrates] Now the dead man thinks the camera isn't on him, so he
gets up and crawls off the stage. And the camera is on him. He's
supposed to be dead. The camera's still— Live television.
-
WHITE
- That's one of the disasters.
-
NICHOLAS
- That's it. And people like that. I didn't like that. This is a dramatic
show. I want to see the story like it's supposed to be. And they love
those mistakes. Some people love those mistakes. Boy, I hated live
television.
-
WHITE
- That was quite a different experience for you, I'm sure, from the film
experience and from theater.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes. Well, in theater you rehearse. Let's say you're doing a show
like St. Louis Woman. You go out of town,
maybe to Philadelphia, Hartford, Connecticut, and Boston. You're
rehearsing. It's like a dress rehearsal. You're rehearsing the show so
you will be ready for Broadway. When you get to Broadway everything is
supposed to be intact. You have rehearsed all these weeks and so you
don't have to worry about making mistakes. You might, but you're well
rehearsed. You know the story, you know what has to be done. But in
television, ugh, this was a new thing for us. When I would try to do
these live shows, and try not to make any mistakes, because you'd see
that with millions of people seeing you making this— It was a funny
thing. After we did the Milton Berle show and made this mistake, when I
couldn't get up out of that split, we went to Harlem—as they say, Harlem
in Manhattan—and went to some of the clubs and everybody— It seems as
though everybody had seen that show. They said, "What happened to you,
Fayard? You couldn't get out of that split. What's the matter? Is it
age, or what is it?" They kept kidding me. I said, "Oh, man, live
television! I don't like live television. If it was a movie, I could
have taken it over again."
-
WHITE
- That's fascinating. So you guys actually covered the circuit more or
less with all the television shows. I understand that in the late 1940s
your popularity began to wane and the William Morris Agency encouraged
you to go to Europe.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes.
-
WHITE
- Is that correct?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes, because we used to work nightclubs all the time, and no more
nightclubs. People were staying home watching television. It's free, you
see? And so they said, "Fellahs, go to Europe. You should always be
active, always. Don't be sitting at home waiting for the telephone to
ring to do another movie." He said, "Go to Europe. They want you over
there. We're negotiating with Europe." They wanted to see the Nicholas
Brothers in Europe, because of all the motion pictures that have played
over there. And I said "Okay." So we went over there and stayed the
first time four years before coming back to this country.
-
WHITE
- Oh, really? What about your family life here in Los Angeles?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, with my wife Geraldine and my son Tony? They would come to Europe
and be with me. They'd go to different countries, like Italy and France
and North Africa. They were always with me.
-
WHITE
- So this was back in 1948. When you went there for the first time, to
Europe, you actually stayed for four years?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, the first time. Well the first time we went over there was to
England in 1936. The first time after that, in 1947. After World War II,
we were at the Cirque Moderne in Paris, France. It was like a circus and
we were the headliners. They had all of the elephants and the lions and
acrobats and all of that. It was a one-ring thing. See, usually at
circuses they have many shows going on at the same time. Have you ever
been to a circus?
-
WHITE
- Certainly.
-
NICHOLAS
- And you can see that, in one part, there are the trained elephants and
in another part, there's the animal trainer with the tigers and the
lions, another one with the trapeze. You just look and so much is going
on until there will be the main star. He will be right in the center and
you're only watching him or her. And forget about all of this [other]
stuff. That wouldn't be there. And they have the spotlight on this star,
whatever he or she is doing. But at Cirque Moderne in Paris, France, it
was only this one ring, you might say. And that's where they did
everything. So when it came time for the Nicholas Brothers they brought
out a special stage for us to tap-dance on.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay, that must have been exciting.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, and the orchestra leader was up on a platform and it was a lady
who was conducting. We'd come out and do our thing and [perform] at the
microphone and all of that. And I was leading the band as my brother was
singing a song—I think it was "[Oh,] Lady Be Good!" And we had such
great write-ups in all the newspapers. And one critic said—they were so
happy to see me directing the band—we should have moved the leader out
of the way. Let Fayard direct the whole show. That's what it said.
-
WHITE
- So that was a terrific experience for you in Paris. I understand that at
the London Palladium, you did a royal command performance for the king
of England [George VI].
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, the king and queen [Elizabeth] were there. That was in 1948. I
don't know if I told you this before. They were telling us how to
acknowledge the king and queen. Oh, and Princess Margaret, she was up
there too, in the royal box with the royal family. And they said, "After
you finish your act, first you bow to the king and queen. Then you bow
to the audience. Then you bow to the king and queen again. Then you
exit."
-
WHITE
- I see.
-
NICHOLAS
- They rehearsed everybody on how to do that. And oh, we broke up the
show. Yeah, we were great. It was so great being there, doing a royal
command performance for the king and queen. But we were disappointed,
because— Whenever there was a royal performance, the king and queen
would always come backstage to meet everybody, but this time they
didn't. And I could see— I was in the wings looking at them and I saw
them getting ready to leave. Someone came in and told them something. I
found out later that the reason why they left was that Queen Elizabeth
[II], who wasn't queen at that time, was giving birth to her first
child, Prince Charles [later Charles, Prince of Wales]. That's why they
went to Buckingham Palace, to be there with her, because it was time for
her to give birth.
-
WHITE
- Prior to your knowing this, did you feel a little uncomfortable or
neglected by the fact that they hadn't come backstage to see you?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, I understand why.
-
WHITE
- Yeah, after you found out, but before that—
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, before that, I was wondering, "Why did they leave? They didn't like
the show?" What was going on? Then, when I found out why they had left,
I was relieved, I could understand. They wanted to be there with their
daughter.
-
WHITE
- So you had some really great experiences when you were in Europe, I
understand. You said that your wife was commuting back and forth, and
would come and stay with you and travel with you a bit. I understand
that in 1950 your son Paul [Nicholas] was born.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, that's right. He was conceived in North Africa.
-
WHITE
- Was he really?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. In Casablanca, Morocco.
-
WHITE
- Oh, romantic.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, that's right.
-
WHITE
- So were you here, actually, when Paul was born? Did you come back to the
States for the birth?
-
NICHOLAS
- He was born before I got back.
-
WHITE
- He was?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah.
-
WHITE
- Okay, so you missed that.
-
NICHOLAS
- I missed it, yeah. But I was here when Tony was born. I was at the
hospital. She was going through labor and everything, like pregnant
women do, and I was there with her holding her hand. She didn't suffer
much. Then all of a sudden they said, "It's time." So they took her to a
room with the doctors—I didn't go—and then Tony was born and they
brought her back to the room, because I waited there for her. And she
said, "Oh, Fayard, he's so beautiful." At this time we were trying to
find out what we were going to name him. We said "Anthony"—that would be
the name. And she said, "Oh, you should see him, Fayard." He was born
with a full head of hair.
-
WHITE
- How did you feel about the fact that you were out of the country when
your second son was born?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, I wanted to be there, but I had signed all these contracts to play
all over Europe.
-
WHITE
- It wasn't possible.
-
NICHOLAS
- It wasn't possible for me to— But my wife, she called me and she wrote
me letters about Paul and said, "Oh, he's beautiful, just like Tony." I
didn't get with Paul until I arrived and came back here, and he was
walking and talking.
-
WHITE
- Right. You came back in 1953, is that correct?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, he was walking and talking before—
-
WHITE
- Before you got a chance to see him?
-
NICHOLAS
- Before I had the chance to see him.
-
WHITE
- Oh, my goodness. So she didn't have an opportunity to come and visit
with—
-
NICHOLAS
- No, because she was there with her two sons, and taking care of
everything.
-
WHITE
- Now, rumor has it that this is when you were considered sort of an
international ladies man.
-
NICHOLAS
- I was an international ladies man? I was? [laughs]
-
WHITE
- That's how rumor has it.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, wow. Oh, gee.
-
WHITE
- At that time you were in Europe, before you came back to the States in
1953?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, I couldn't fight these girls off. I guess I didn't want to.
[mutual laughter]
-
WHITE
- That's key. My goodness. When you returned to the States, I understand
that you performed at the inauguration of Dwight D. Eisenhower.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, President Eisenhower. We were at the White House and took pictures
with all the different celebrities there, with President Eisenhower and
Mrs. [Mamie D.] Eisenhower right in the center. Jeanette MacDonald was
there and Lionel Hampton was there and Marge and Gower Champion were
there. Dolores Gray, she was there. All these celebrities who
entertained took this picture with the president and the first lady.
And, oh, that was a great night. That was a great night, the
inauguration of President Eisenhower, and a lot of parties were going
on. Oh, it was great. They had a great party at someone's home there.
Very elaborate. Gee, and good-looking women. I was there, and this
lovely girl came over to me and said, "Oh, Mr. Nicholas, I really
enjoyed your performance tonight. You thrilled me. I want to give you
something, but I don't know what. To show you my appreciation of your
performance." I said, "Thank you very much." She said, "Here's what I'm
going to give you. This is my last one." It was marijuana, this little
cigarette. [mutual laughter] She said, "This is mine. I want you to have
it. This is my last one and this is—" Like it's the greatest thing in
the world to her. She said, "This is yours." And I said, "I'm sorry,
sweetheart, I don't smoke." If I don't smoke cigarettes, why am I going
to smoke this thing? And she broke down and cried, because this is the
greatest thing in the world for her and I refused. I said, "Oh,
sweetheart, I'm sorry." And so she was crying and I pulled her in my
arms and said [in a solicitous voice], "Oh, no, no." She was melting—
-
WHITE
- Oh, of course.
-
NICHOLAS
- So I don't know where she— I think she dropped it. I don't know what
happened to this thing. And so I talked to her. I said, "I just want to
talk to you." We got real close and she said, "Would you like to come to
my apartment?" I said, "Sure." Oh, she was pretty. We went to her
apartment, and there I was with her in the bed and all that jazz.
[mutual laughter] I woke up the next morning and she was up cooking
breakfast for me and she brings it to the bed. Oh, wow. And she had on
her robe and there I am in bed, like a king, having my breakfast. Oh, it
was great. Then it was time for me to leave. I said, "It's been
wonderful, and I hope we meet again." And I don't think I ever met her
again. It was the first and last time.
-
WHITE
- Wow, it's quite a wonderful experience.
-
NICHOLAS
- She had fun with me without going through all of this dope stuff, like
sniffing the cocaine and smoking the reefer. She had fun just talking to
me and then me caressing her and making her feel good in a way that I
guess she never had before. Because she was always [at] parties with
this dope. So that was the fun for her. I showed her how to have fun
without that, because I told her, "Look, sweetheart, I was born high. I
don't need this stuff to make me high."
-
WHITE
- Now, this is during the Eisenhower era. Of course, the country was sort
of in an upheaval. You know, the Supreme Court decision of 1954, the
"separate but equal" [Brown v. the Board of
Education of Topeka, Kansas] decision, the Martin Luther
King, Jr. [protests and marches], lots of sit-ins at restaurants,
[African Americans] demanding equal rights. Tell me, what were your
thoughts during this period of time?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, I admire— I admire those people who would go down to Alabama with
Dr. King and walk. The only way I could help, and the only way I would
help, was to send them a check.
-
WHITE
- I see.
-
NICHOLAS
- That was my way of it. Me going down there in that atmosphere, that
wasn't for me. I didn't. So that's the way I would help. And I admired
all of them who would go. Like Harry Belafonte would go and I think
Sammy Davis, Jr. went down there and other well-known entertainers would
go. So I said, "Great. That's great." I saw them on television as they
were marching. Wonderful. I said, "This is the way I will do my part,
send you money to help the foundation." I tried to stay away from the
South as much as I could because I didn't like the things that were
going on. They had these dogs that were attacking people because they
would march and say "We want a better life in the South." It was great
what they were doing and it worked, but what they had to go through for
all of this—! Governor [George C.] Wallace [of Alabama] was trying to
fight so that black children couldn't go to white schools, and they sent
the [National Guard] down there to protect these children. And, oh,
Governor Wallace—yak yak yak—he was firm right until the very last
moment—"No, they don't come here." And then these [guardsmen] came down
and marched these kids right past him, right into the school. Then he
laughed— "Ha, ha, ha, ha." [laughs]
-
WHITE
- Yes, it certainly got national media attention.
-
NICHOLAS
- Right, oh, gee.
-
WHITE
- So now, your son, Tony, he would have been about nine around this time.
Was he going to an integrated school? What was his experience?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes. In Los Angeles? He was going to an integrated school. I think
he was going to a Catholic school, because my wife Geraldine was
Catholic. So I'm sure that he was going to a Catholic school. But he
doesn't go to a Catholic [church] anymore now.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- He's still a Christian, but he just changed from Catholic to something
else. I forget what it is now.
-
WHITE
- He's involved in something else that's more to his liking.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, with his wife, Vanita [Nicholas].
-
WHITE
- I guess at this point in time, when a lot of this political turmoil was
going on in the country, you weren't necessarily directly impacted in
terms of your interactions in the industry, in terms of your
interactions with your colleagues, that sort of thing. Did you feel the
impact of this political turmoil in your own personal life?
-
NICHOLAS
- You mean politics?
-
WHITE
- Sure.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, I think I've always been a Democrat, and that's that way I would
always vote. I've been in the presence of six presidents, [such as]
President [Franklin D.] Roosevelt, who was a Democrat. I would go with a
lot of celebrities and entertain the soldiers, like Lucille Ball and
Desi Arnaz, James Cagney and Laurel and Hardy, Mary Martin and Ann
Miller. We'd go and entertain the soldiers at these different camps.
They were soldiers who were eventually going overseas to be in combat.
So those are the things I was doing. We went to Washington, D.C. for a
special gathering there with President Roosevelt. We were all there and
we did a show like, what is that, that long, skinny building? It looks
like a needle.
-
WHITE
- Oh, I know what you're talking about. It escapes me at the moment, but I
know exactly what you're talking about.
-
NICHOLAS
- We did a show right there, in front of that, with Lucille Ball and all
the other entertainers. So like I said, I've always been a Democrat. But
President Eisenhower was a Republican. But whoever is in office, I'm
with him and want to help him to make America a better country, yeah,
whoever was in office. But I'd always vote Democrat. I was with [Richard
M.] Nixon. I was with— Let's see who else. Oh, I didn't have the
pleasure of being with President [John F.] Kennedy. No, never did, but
all the others, like [George H. W.] Bush, who was a Republican.
-
WHITE
- Right. He and Barbara [P. Bush] actually honored you and your brother at
the Kennedy—
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, at the Kennedy Center in 1991. I was with President [William J.]
Clinton. And so it's been six, I think, six presidents altogether that
I've been associated with. And I'm going to be with President Clinton
this year, too. The year 2000, in December. My wife Catherine and I will
go. We were there in 1998. We were there and we met the president and
the first lady, Mrs. [Hillary Rodham] Clinton. They were gracious. We
had a wonderful time. We took pictures with them.
-
WHITE
- It's great that you've had the experience of interacting with so many
presidents. That's quite unusual.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yeah. And President Reagan, too—I forgot him.
-
WHITE
- So back in the Eisenhower era, times were actually changing a bit for
black Americans in the film industry. For instance, Dorothy Dandridge
starred in Carmen Jones in 1954 with Harry
Belafonte.
-
NICHOLAS
- Dorothy Dandridge starred in Carmen Jones,
and she was nominated for [the] Best Actress [Academy Award].
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes. She didn't win, but she was nominated. That was a big step forward,
even being nominated for Best Actress.
-
WHITE
- Did you and your wife have a lot of interaction with her and Harold at
that time?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, we became very good friends. Dorothy and my wife Geraldine were best
friends, the best of friends. Dorothy was crazy about Geraldine because
Geraldine was a college graduate and she reads a lot. Even today, she's
always reading books and everything up to date, in politics and
everything. And she's very, very bright. People would like to come to
see her and to talk to her because they learned so much from her. Very
intelligent. I remember there were times when guys would come to see her
and they tried to hit on her, but she knew how to keep the distance. And
she'd talk to them and they would start listening to her. They'd learn
new things from her and so they didn't think about hitting on her
anymore. They'd leave and then they would call and say, "May I come
over? I'd like to talk to you." She'd say, "Sure, come on over." So
they'd come over and it was only to learn something from her because she
had all this information.
-
WHITE
- So she quite an intellect.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, she was very intellectual, yes. And I learned so much from her. I
remember one time I was getting ready to go to the William Morris Agency
here and she said to me, "Why don't you tell them so-and-so—" I forget
what it was "—and see what they think." And I listened. I said, "Geri,
that's a good idea. I'll tell them about that." So I went to the William
Morris Agency and told them her idea, but it was like it was mine. I
came back and I said, "Look, they liked that idea that you just told
me." And she said, "I thought they would, Fayard." The thing was she
would never say "It was my idea" when I'd tell people about it. She was
happy that it was coming through for me, and never would say, "That was
my idea." No, she let the people think it was mine.
-
WHITE
- She was quite supportive to you as a wife, obviously.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes, she was. She was.
-
WHITE
- She bore you two sons and actually helped to sort of raise the boys at a
young age when you were in Europe and taking care of your career.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, she was a good mother.
-
WHITE
- I understand, though, in 1956 you both decided to call it quits.
-
NICHOLAS
- Um-hm.
-
WHITE
- And got a divorce.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes, because she called me and said, "Fayard, I still love you but today
I'm not in love with you." And I knew the difference.
-
WHITE
- Sure.
-
NICHOLAS
- I knew exactly. I knew that we could still be friends, but no romance.
And I understood that. She said, "When I get a divorce from you, you'll
be the first one to know." I was in Madrid, Spain, and she sent me a
cable and said, "Fayard, the divorce is final." At the time, she was
with Leo Branton.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay. Her current husband.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, her current husband. He's a big-time lawyer. She married him. It
was a funny thing. When I met her in Chicago, they were going together.
-
WHITE
- Is that so?
-
NICHOLAS
- I took her away from him.
-
WHITE
- Oh, my goodness. [laughs]
-
NICHOLAS
- But how about him! He has a lot of patience. He waited. He waited.
-
WHITE
- So she was really his special lady.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh yeah, because when he found out that we were separated, ooh, he
started moving in.
-
WHITE
- Moving in for the kill.
-
NICHOLAS
- For the kill.
-
WHITE
- Do you recall how you felt at this point in time?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, I didn't feel—
-
WHITE
- Did you feel relieved that you could go ahead and live your life as a
bachelor?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, I didn't feel good that she divorced me. I didn't feel good at all,
but I kept living. It wasn't the thing that—like, "Oh, this is the end
of my life" and "Oh, what am I going to do now?" But I knew I could
always depend on her if there was anything I would want. She'd be right
there. We were still great friends. So it gave me the courage to go on
with my life. Then I met my second wife, Barbara.
-
WHITE
- Right, later on.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, Barbara January, who became Barbara Nicholas.
-
WHITE
- Exactly. That was, I guess, in 1967 when you married her?
-
NICHOLAS
- I married her in 1967, yeah.
-
WHITE
- Well, let's see. After your divorce you continued traveling, and then I
suppose a couple of years later you came back to the States and I
understand that Harold wanted to launch a solo career in France after
being told that Sammy Davis, Jr. would be a star, but not him. Does that
sound familiar?
-
NICHOLAS
- That's what they told him.
-
WHITE
- That's what they told him.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, because my brother didn't take any of that jazz from those guys,
and they said, "That's all right. We'll make Sammy Davis a star."
-
WHITE
- When you say "those guys," who are you referring to?
-
NICHOLAS
- I'm talking about those gangsters who were running Las Vegas, because
that's where we were doing our thing at that time in the fifties. We did
shows with Frank Sinatra and Jeanette MacDonald and other celebrities,
so we didn't just take that type of thing— Like, they were rubbing our
heads for good luck. "No, man. You don't do that to me." And they said,
"Oh, really? Well, I do it to Sammy." "Well, that's Sammy. You don't do
it to me." And they said, "Well, all right, we're going to make him a
star." "Well, okay."
-
WHITE
- Interesting. Of course, Harold was very interested in having a singing
career at this point.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, he always wanted to have a singing career. There were times that he
would make records. He made records for the Decca Records company. He
did that. And, oh, we made an album, the two of us. In Sweden we made an
album that was released in this country on Mercury Records. Well, in
that album he did most of the singing, but we'd do some songs together.
And I would do one by myself. And we'd do sort of a talking type of a
song, like conversation. We'd do things like that in this album. It was
about twelve songs on this, a long-playing record. They don't have those
anymore, long-playing records. On the cover of this album it said, "We
do sing, too. —Nicholas Brothers." And they have us jumping up in the
air in the same color on this album.
-
WHITE
- Interesting. So I understand that between 1958 and, I believe, 1964, you
and Harold had parted as a team. Harold was in France and you were
touring in those days.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, in the fifties. I left Europe—I think it was in 1958—and he stayed.
I told him I was homesick. I wanted to come back home. So he said,
"You're going home. Take care of the business and I'll come later."
-
WHITE
- And when you say "come home," where did you come? Did you live in Los
Angeles at this time?
-
NICHOLAS
- Um-hm. I lived down [inaudible]. Let me see, I think I was still staying
on Van Ness. Yeah, I think I was. Now let me see— No, wait a minute. No,
I wasn't.
-
WHITE
- After your divorce.
-
NICHOLAS
- Because I had divorced. No, I was staying with my sister [Dorothy
Nicholas Morrow]—my sister and her husband [Byron Morrow]. I stayed
there when I first came back to this country, the United States of
America. I stayed with them and that's when my girlfriend Vikki was with
me.
-
WHITE
- Right, Vikki Alvarez.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, Vikki Alvarez. I stayed with her and then we went to Mexico and we
went to a little town that was near Juárez, Mexico. And I did a show
with her at one of the— it was across from Texas. I forget the name of
the city in Texas.
-
NICHOLAS
- Across the border in this nightclub, where I was performing with Vikki
Alvarez, mostly Americans would go there and so we'd do our act in
English.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- Because it's close to the border and this is a nice nightclub in Mexico,
and so a lot of Americans would go there. And the Mexicans would go
there, too, those who spoke English—and maybe those who didn't. But they
just wanted to see these entertainers. I remember, just before I opened
there, Earl Grant— Do you remember Earl Grant?
-
WHITE
- Yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- He'd sing and play the organ. He was there before we were there.
-
WHITE
- Okay. So you were well received in Mexico.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes, yes. I'd go there a couple of nights before he'd close and see
his show and talk to him. And then he'd introduce me. So it worked out
well. Vikki did all these Latin dances, like the mambo and the [cha-cha]
and the rumba. I would get in there and do it with her and do my thing,
too, my tap dancing. And I would sing my song. It worked out nice and so
I was doing that with her and then we— I was staying with Vikki and her
family, her mother and all her relatives. Boy, those Mexicans, they live
in this house and it's the whole family.
-
WHITE
- Oh, my goodness.
-
NICHOLAS
- They sleep, and they'll even sleep on the floor, everywhere, and so—
-
WHITE
- Well, I'd like to finish up that conversation in our next interview.
We're going to have to end the interview for today. Okay?
-
NICHOLAS
- Okay. We'll talk about that.
1.13. TAPE NUMBER: VII, SIDE ONE
JUNE 8, 2000
-
WHITE
- I'm at the home of Mr. Fayard Nicholas, once again. Hello, Mr. Nicholas.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, how do you do do? [laughs]
-
WHITE
- I'm very well. And yourself?
-
NICHOLAS
- I'm still rolling along.
-
WHITE
- Still rolling along.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes. I'm happy as the day is long and I feel like I'm seventeen.
-
WHITE
- Oh, excellent. Wow. [mutual laughter] That's pretty youthful.
-
NICHOLAS
- I hope to tell you.
-
WHITE
- That's terrific. Well, let's see. Last time we spoke last Thursday, at
the end of our conversation, you had just basically given me some
insight about your travels in Mexico. And you had, I guess, met Vikki
Alvarez and you guys had performed there. So from that point I wanted to
just move on back to the United States. From your travels in Mexico, did
you come directly back to Los Angeles?
-
NICHOLAS
- After Mexico?
-
WHITE
- Uh-huh.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes, yes. I came back here. After I spent a little time down there
with Vikki Alvarez and her family. Oh boy, she's got a big family. Holy
Christmas. And there were so many of them, they had to sleep on the
floor. Vikki and I, we had our own bedroom. Her mother was nice. We
performed in a city across the border from Texas, and it's called
Juárez. Juárez, Mexico. We were in this nightclub that really catered to
Americans going across the border from Texas, so they had American acts
there. And, well, the Mexican people, they would go there too, those who
spoke English—and maybe those who didn't speak English, but they enjoyed
the music. Just before Vikki and I opened there, there was Earl Grant.
Do you remember him?
-
WHITE
- The name is familiar, yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- Earl Grant, he would sing and play the organ. He was good. When he was
singing, he sort of reminded you of Nat "King" Cole. He had that type of
voice. He was a good entertainer. So Vikki and I, we did our little
dance, American and Spanish type of act. [laughs and claps his hands]
Oh! We'd show them.
-
WHITE
- It brings back fond memories, it seems.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yeah, it was good at the time. Vikki was a spitfire. Oh, yeah, so
jealous— Oh, my goodness. Well, I had to leave her.
-
WHITE
- Oh, is that so?
-
NICHOLAS
- She was so jealous that— I remember one time we were in Europe together
and we were in Helsinki, Finland, staying at this fabulous hotel. An
American friend called me, because he was there, and he said, "Fayard,
I'm here in Helsinki, Finland. I just arrived here from America. Could
we come up and see you?" So I said, "Sure." So they came up and Vikki,
naturally, she was in the room with me. He knocked on the door. I opened
the door and he said, "Hello." And we shook hands. He said, "I want you
to meet my girlfriend." Oh, pretty little girl. And I said, "Oh, glad to
meet you." And then she put out her hand to shake my hand. I said,
"Yeah, I'm glad to see you." Just like that. Just a few seconds, right?
And when they left, Vikki said to me, "You held her hand too long."
[White laughs] "It was only a second." So what am I supposed to do,
then? Say "I can't shake your hand— My girlfriend doesn't like it"? Oh,
I had to get rid of her. Yeah.
-
WHITE
- I noticed in your archival records that you guys traveled to Copenhagen?
You guys were in Denmark together performing?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes. Copenhagen, Denmark, yes, we were there in a review, a Danish
review. We were the headliners, we starred in the show. We recreated the
number that we did in Stormy Weather on
those big stairs.
-
WHITE
- Yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- They built them for us. They always wanted us to do that. Wherever we
would go, all over Europe. I said to them, "Well, I don't have those
stairs." They said, "It's all right, we'll build them." I didn't want to
do that damn thing, but they found a way to build them so we could jump
up and down those stairs, splitting over each other's heads.
-
WHITE
- That's a signature dance. Everyone is so excited to see it.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, I guess it is. Yeah. What a signature!
-
WHITE
- Now at the time you were traveling in Denmark, Harold and Dorothy were
traveling with you as well? Is that correct?
-
NICHOLAS
- When I was with Vikki Alvarez, my brother [Harold Nicholas] was
divorced.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yeah. He was divorced from Dorothy Dandridge.
-
WHITE
- I see. Do you recall what year Harold and Dorothy divorced?
-
NICHOLAS
- Let me see. [hums for a moment—] Wham! [laughs] Yeah, because they
divorced before Geri and I divorced.
-
WHITE
- Oh, they did?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes. Yes, they did.
-
WHITE
- Okay. Was it around the time that Dorothy Dandridge was in Carmen Jones, in 1954?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, they were divorced [by then].
-
WHITE
- By then?
-
NICHOLAS
- Before Carmen Jones, yeah[, in 1950].
-
WHITE
- I see, so quite some time ago.
-
NICHOLAS
- But they were still friends. Now, you're talking about Copenhagen,
Denmark?
-
WHITE
- Yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- We were in Copenhagen, Denmark, at the time that Dorothy Dandridge was
flying to Copenhagen, Denmark—
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay, that's probably what your literature was indicating.
-
NICHOLAS
- We found out and we met her at the airport.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- And we took pictures with her and they put it in the Danish newspapers.
She was just passing by. She wasn't staying, just going somewhere else—I
think to Paris, France, to do a motion picture.
-
WHITE
- Sure. Okay, so you traveled around Mexico and you were in Copenhagen
performing with Vikki Alvarez. At what point did you come to the United
States?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, from Mexico, you're talking about?
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- Uh-huh. Let's see, I was there in 1959. In '59 I was there, and I stayed
with her down there until 1960 and I came back to America. I left her
down there and I came back here.
-
WHITE
- Did you come to Los Angeles?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes. I was always in Los Angeles when I would come back to America
from foreign countries—Mexico or Europe. This is my headquarters, Los
Angeles.
-
WHITE
- Where did you live at that time?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, when I first came back to this country I lived with my sister and
her husband. My sister, Dorothy [Nicholas Morrow] and her husband, Byron
[Morrow].
-
WHITE
- Where did they live?
-
NICHOLAS
- Up in Laurel Canyon, up in the Hollywood Hills. They still live there.
So I stayed with them for a while. Then I tried to do a simple act.
First I did it with Vikki. We worked at the Sahara Hotel in Las Vegas.
-
WHITE
- Oh, did you?
-
NICHOLAS
- Uh-huh. We were there with Sophie Tucker and Paul Anka.
-
WHITE
- So there was a point that Vikki Alvarez did come to the United States
with you. And then she went back?
-
NICHOLAS
- Then she went back to Mexico.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay. And you stayed.
-
NICHOLAS
- And so, yeah, I stayed here. I stayed here.
-
WHITE
- Now Harold, in the meantime, seemed to be doing quite well in Europe.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yeah. He was doing well in Europe. He was making records,
longplaying records, and doing his European act. He was singing in many
languages. And also English, too, as well.
-
WHITE
- Is that so? He sings in French and other languages?
-
NICHOLAS
- He sings in French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and a little English.
-
WHITE
- Does he really? He's quite talented.
-
NICHOLAS
- He's quite talented. And so that's the type of act he was doing. And he
would dance, too. He was doing quite well. Then he married this lovely
lady of France. Her name was Elyanne [Patronne], and they had a son.
They named him Melih [Nicholas].
-
WHITE
- Melih?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, Melih. It's a Turkish name. So he was there doing his thing and I
was here, doing mine. Burt Diamond, who became my manager, said he
wanted to get the Nicholas Brothers back together again. Did I tell you
that?
-
WHITE
- No, we haven't gotten to that point, yet.
-
NICHOLAS
- I thought so.
-
WHITE
- Before we talk about that, I wonder if you could tell me how you felt
performing without Harold. What was it like for you?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, I used to perform without him, before we got together. I was
performing before I taught him.
-
WHITE
- Right, but you were so much younger then.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, but I still had that same feeling of doing my own thing. I was so
young and I could do my own choreography and everything like that. So it
was easy for me to do it again, even though I was older.
-
WHITE
- Right. I don't mean technically.
-
NICHOLAS
- What do you mean?
-
WHITE
- I'm sure you certainly had the skills, continued to have them, but
emotionally, psychologically—
-
NICHOLAS
- I missed him. I missed him, because whenever I would perform I'm looking
for him to be beside me and he's not there.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- "What happened to you, man?" And so, like that. I missed him, but I was
still performing and trying to please the audience.
-
WHITE
- Do you recall some of the places that you performed? I understand you
did a number of one-nighters in sort of medium-sized nightclubs. Do you
recall any of the clubs in Los Angeles?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, I can't tell you exactly the names of the clubs. I remember I
performed in San Francisco, in one of the clubs there. And it was real
funny— I'm there on stage just singing this song and I'm doing my dance
and I think it was the song [sings the title] "Call Me Irresistible." I
did that song and I was dancing and I was having fun. There was this man
in a party of six. He looked at me and he said to me, "You think you're
good, don't you? Don't you? You think you're good." So I said, "Man, I
know it." And the lady beside him said, "I guess he told you." He was
being a heckler, so I answered him like that. I didn't want to.
-
WHITE
- That was quite rude of him.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, but he was rude. He said, "You think you're something, don't you?"
"Man, I know it." [mutual laughter] And everybody laughed.
-
WHITE
- Well, my notes indicate that without the team, actually, a lot of the
booking agents in this city or in the United States weren't as
enthusiastic about the whole notion of tap dancing or hiring one of the
Nicholas Brothers, as opposed to the team. What are your thoughts about
that?
-
NICHOLAS
- [laughs] Well, I could understand. When you see me by myself, you're
thinking about my brother, as a team. Through the years, they had never
seen me doing a single act. It was a little hard. Burt Diamond, who
became my manager, he was taking me [to do] club dates, and introducing
me to many, many important people. It was pretty good. It could have
been better.
-
WHITE
- Sure. At what point did you sever the relationship with the William
Morris Agency and move over to Burt Diamond?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, that was when I came back here, to the USA. When I got back, the
contract had just expired. Then I got together with another agency
called the Associated Booking Corporation. Joe Glaser was the president.
He really ran that agency, and he became a partner with Louie [Louis]
Armstrong.
-
WHITE
- Oh, did he?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yeah. Louie Armstrong said to him, "Joe, listen, I don't know what
to do with all this money." He said, "Just give me $1000 for pocket
money and you take all the other [money] and put it in a bank as a joint
account with you. Just put it all in the bank." And so Joe Glaser did
that. It was wonderful, because that was money for Louie Armstrong's
wife. Louie Armstrong passed away and she got all that money, and Joe
Glaser saved it for her. Isn't that nice?
-
WHITE
- That's great. It's a nice story. It's an unusual story in Hollywood.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, very unusual.
-
WHITE
- That's for sure.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, because see, Louie Armstrong, he trusted Joe Glaser and they
worked well together. Joe Glaser kept him working all the time. Louie
Armstrong never did rest—he was working from this date to that date.
-
WHITE
- So then you were introduced, I would imagine, to Burt Diamond by someone
in that circle?
-
NICHOLAS
- No, I wasn't introduced to him. I was in that drug store at Sunset and
Fairfax, called [Thrifty Drug store], I think.
-
WHITE
- Yeah, it's still there.
-
NICHOLAS
- It's still there, yeah. They didn't change the name, did they? To—
-
WHITE
- Maybe Rite Aid.
-
NICHOLAS
- Rite Aid, yeah. I was in the drugstore and I was looking at postcards of
Los Angeles. He saw me looking at these postcards and he approached me
and he said, "Aren't you one of the Nicholas Brothers?" I said, "Yes, I
am." He said, "What are you doing now?" I said, "Oh, I'm doing something
here and there and in other places." He said, "Where's your brother?" I
said, "He's in Europe. He's coming back here sometime, but he's doing
well over there." And he said, "You haven't been thinking about getting
back with your brother?" I said, "Sure, that would be fine." He said,
"I'm going to get the Nicholas Brothers back together." I said, "That
would be great, if you can do it." Then he said, "Well, in the meantime,
I'll see what I can do with you until we get him to come back." I said,
"Okay." And so he took me over to the Hollywood Palace building [now the
Palace] where they did the TV shows. You heard about this variety show
called [The] Hollywood Palace?
-
WHITE
- Yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- So he took me over there to meet all the producers. At that time I was
slim and trim and I looked good. So I walked in and met the producers.
They looked at me and said, "You look good." And I said, "Well, what
other way am I supposed to look?" They said, "Well, we thought we'd see
an old man come in here with a cane and he can hardly walk." I said,
"Listen, this is me. I feel this way all the time."
-
WHITE
- You were just in your early fifties at that point.
-
NICHOLAS
- You think so? That was in 1964.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay, yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- Right, was I in the fifties?
-
WHITE
- Yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- I don't know what age I was.
-
WHITE
- Yes, you were fifty.
-
NICHOLAS
- Thanks for the arithmetic. [mutual laughter]
-
WHITE
- No problem.
-
NICHOLAS
- They said, "Yes, you look good." And I was dressed sharp, too. They
said, "Would you get up on stage and do a little something for us?" So I
got up onstage and I sang a song and I did a little number for them. And
they said, "Ah, that's great, Fayard, that's great. But it would be much
better if your brother was here." [laughs] He said, "Don't you think you
can get him to come here from Europe?" I said, "We'll try. We'll try to
see what we can do." And I said, "Wait a minute. If he doesn't come
here, will you still have me on the show?" And they said, "Yes."
-
WHITE
- Oh, good.
-
NICHOLAS
- They said, "Yes, if he doesn't come, okay. But you will try, won't you?"
I said, "Yes, we'll try. We'll try." So we called him. At the time he
was in the south of France. I think he was in Nice or Cannes, one of
those cities. Burt Diamond called and he talked to his wife in
Paris—because that's the headquarters, in Paris—and she told him that he
wasn't there but he would be coming in tomorrow. So Burt Diamond called
the next day and talked to my brother and he said, "I got a good deal
that you can come to America and do this Hollywood television show with
your brother." Then he told him that everything was, like, first class
tickets, airline, first class hotel, they can sign the check for room
service, they can send a limousine for him. "All these things, you don't
have to spend any money at all." And he told him what a good salary he
was going to make. Oh, that sounded good to him.
-
WHITE
- What an incentive.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. So my brother said, "Honey, would you like to go to America?" She
said, "Oh, yes, I would like to go to America." He said, "I'm going and
I'll make all the arrangements and I'll send for you to come. And you
bring Melih." That's their son, Melih.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- And so he arrived here, in LAX [Los Angeles International Airport]. I
met him at the airport. And it was— What airline was it? Pan Am [Pan
American Airlines]. I don't think there is Pan Am anymore, is there?
-
WHITE
- I don't think so, no.
-
NICHOLAS
- No, and I met him there and they took pictures of us at the airport. We
were in a dance pose. They put it in the newspapers and all that. After
he got settled in the hotel— it was the Knickerbocker Hotel. It's right
there in the area of the Hollywood Palace; he could come out of the
hotel and just walk to the theater. So we were there and we were
rehearsing. We got together with a music arranger, and [laughs] we did
the dance that we did in Stormy Weather.
They wanted those damn steps.
-
WHITE
- Once again.
-
NICHOLAS
- Once again. Oh, my goodness. They said, "Oh, we'll build the steps."
-
WHITE
- Oh, no.
-
NICHOLAS
- I'm trying to get out of this thing. "Oh, we'll build it for you." Okay.
All right. So that was the first time that we did The Hollywood Palace television show and we did that
number.
-
WHITE
- Did you really? You guys were still able to perform it?
-
NICHOLAS
- We were still able to perform it.
-
WHITE
- Wow, that's incredible.
-
NICHOLAS
- And, boy, I was so thin then— I was thinner than my brother. Now he's
always been smaller than me. So we went to wardrobe to get measurements
and all of that, and found out what outfit we would wear. Now, a show
before we did the show, they had special costumes for little boys, so
they tried these costumes on us. And they found out my waist— Well, the
trousers were too big for me. They had to take the waist in. They had to
do it for my brother, too. And it fit fine. So the wardrobe lady came to
our dressing room and gave us the trousers. My brother, he was looking
at the trousers and he said, "These are mine." I said, "I don't know. I
think they're mine." And he said, "Oh, come now. Give me that." And he
put them on and he couldn't button it. He couldn't button the trousers.
I said, "Let me try." So I put them on. Wham! I could button them. He
said "What?" because he's always been smaller than me. I said, "My waist
is just smaller than yours. That's it. I'm a little taller than you, but
it seems as though my waist is smaller than yours." And he was
flabbergasted. He couldn't understand that because he's always been
smaller. So we got into these costumes and we did The Hollywood Palace show and they loved us.
-
WHITE
- Did they?
-
NICHOLAS
- They loved us. And so they asked us to be on another show. And on that
show, we did "My Kind of Town"—[singing] "My kind of town, Manhattan
is—" [substituting name of own home town for Chicago]
-
WHITE
- Do you remember what show that was?
-
NICHOLAS
- That was the one with, let me see— He plays the piano and he's a comic.
Victor Borge. He was the master of ceremonies and the star of that
particular one. Now the first one we did was with Ed Wynn, the first
television Hollywood Palace show we did,
with Steve and Eydie—Steve Lawrence and Eydie Gormé. They were in the
show, too, with Ed Wynn. Ed Wynn was the star of the show. That's when
he welcomed us back to America. He was talking to us and he said,
"Harold Nicholas was in France—very successful. He made a special trip
to come back to America to perform with his brother." And he said, "Here
he is, ladies and gentlemen, with his brother, Fayard Nicholas, the
Nicholas Brothers." That's where he brought us on. Then the second show
was with Victor and that was great. That was great. When we did all of
those splits and we went over to shake Victor's hand after we finished
the routine, he said, "Those famous Nicholas Brothers. They jump like it
was ten feet high right down to the stage." And he said, "If they jumped
any higher, there would be four Nicholas Brothers."
-
WHITE
- So it seems like this was a very exciting time for you to be reuniting
with Harold.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes. Yes. And then we did another Hollywood
Palace show. Oh yes, they liked us very much and this is
when we did the song "That Old Black Magic." [singing] "That old black
magic—" And then we did our dance. We did our dance. That was with Roy
Rogers and Dale Evans, the husband and wife team, the cowboy. They were
the stars of that particular show. And it was fine. My brother was
supposed to go back to France after the first Hollywood television show. Then the producers said, "We'd
like you to do another show." And then we did the third one.
-
WHITE
- Did his wife and son remain here with him?
-
NICHOLAS
- His wife came over later and then they decided that they wanted to go to
Las Vegas, because they heard that Las Vegas had changed from the way it
used to be, as far as race was concerned.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- They found out that now you could stay in any hotel— There was one time
that every hotel had black entertainers, all headlining—Lena Horne,
Harry Belafonte. At different hotels. Sammy Davis, Jr., the Mills
Brothers, and others, they were starring in all of these hotels. And
here, these hotels are making all of this money with all of these black
entertainers and they're going to tell them they can't stay in the
hotel? And they're making money for these people? That was when it
stopped, this segregation. It stopped.
-
WHITE
- Right, and the Civil Rights Movement at that point in time—
-
NICHOLAS
- Right. And all of that, yes.
-
WHITE
- It was one of the most important decades for African Americans in the
twentieth century.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes. Oh, right.
-
WHITE
- It was definitely sort of an evolution of a black cultural aesthetic,
and there was a resurgence of interest in black entertainment and black
art and that sort of thing. So I'm sure that would account for a lot of
the entertainers headlining in Las Vegas.
-
NICHOLAS
- Right, because they helped. And my brother and I, we helped too, to
break down this type of thing.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes, so my brother went to Las Vegas, and he liked what was going on and
he decided to stay, so we opened up at the Desert Inn hotel with Pearl
Bailey and did our show with her.
-
WHITE
- Were you able to stay at the hotel?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes. Oh, yes. Sure, this was in 1965. And things were better.
-
WHITE
- Sure.
-
NICHOLAS
- Much better. Everybody got together. Maybe the NAACP [National
Association for the Advancement of Colored People] was a part of this,
where they built this hotel in Las Vegas. It was called the Moulin
Rouge.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- Remember that? It said, oh, okay, we can't get what we want at these
damn hotels on the Strip [Las Vegas Boulevard]. We're going to have our
own hotel.
-
WHITE
- Okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- And so they built it and it was great. Gee! All of the entertainers from
the Strip were coming there after they would finish their shows, because
the Moulin Rouge would stay open all night. Gambling and everything. And
all of these stars would just come over there and just have a ball. They
would get up on stage and entertain. Sammy Davis, Jr. and Steve and
Eydie, and— What's his name? He plays the trumpet and he sings. What's
his name? You don't remember, huh? Oh, damn it. I know his name so well,
because he sang [singing], "That old black magic has me in its
spell"—and his wife would sing with him. Man, I can't think of her name
now. Isn't that a drag? I can't think of their names and I know them.
It'll come to me. [Louis Prima and Keeley Smith]
-
WHITE
- It's okay. For the record, we hear Catherine [Hopkins] Nicholas's voice
in the background, Mr. Nicholas's wife.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, oh there she is, isn't she?
-
WHITE
- Just for the record.
-
NICHOLAS
- Boy, isn't she pretty? Ooh, I'm a lucky guy, huh?
-
WHITE
- Yes, you are.
-
NICHOLAS
- Look, she's much taller than I am. Guess what she tells me? She says,
"Fayard, you're ten feet tall." CATHERINE
-
NICHOLAS
- You're the tallest man I know.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, I'm the tallest man that she knows.
-
WHITE
- That's terrific, that's terrific.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, I was thinking about this man, Louie Prima.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay. The name comes back to you, okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, he would go to the Moulin Rouge in Las Vegas. Now this hotel was
like it was on the other side of the tracks, but it was a place just
like the other hotels on the strip, exactly. And everybody went there.
And then all of the managers of all the other hotels heard about this
and said, "What is going on? All of you are going over there and
performing for nothing and we're paying you millions of dollars over
here. You're going over there and giving your talent to them for
nothing."
-
WHITE
- That must have started quite a bit of controversy.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, controversy. So they had to cut that out.
-
WHITE
- Oh, really? The performances at the Moulin Rouge had to be cut out?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, cut out. They're going out there and not getting paid.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- They're just going over there and having fun and getting up there and
doing the same act that they do in the other places, and they're paying
them all this money on the Strip and they're going over there and doing
it for nothing. So they cut that out. Well, I could understand that. So
the hotel, it folded. It stayed open as a hotel, but it didn't have the
entertainment like they used to have, where they had their own special
shows, something like a Cotton Club review, with all the beautiful
girls—showgirls and dancing girls—and their own show. Then afterwards
all of these entertainers would come from the Strip and go there and
that's another show. With all these entertainers, all these headliners,
like maybe Wayne Newton would be there and Louie Prima and Sammy Davis,
Jr. Oh, Sammy, he just loved to entertain. He didn't care if you didn't
pay him anything. He just loved to entertain.
-
WHITE
- This reminds me of the Cotton Club, with all of the black entertainers
kind of getting in one place. Of course, it was a different time,
different era, but it still reminds me of it.
-
NICHOLAS
- It does. Oh, yes.
-
WHITE
- So how long did you guys stay in Las Vegas?
-
NICHOLAS
- We opened up with Pearl Bailey and did our show and then my brother—
They decided to move there, he and his wife and his son. And then we
went to— Let me see, where else? We went to the Flamingo Club and we
were performing there with Larry Steele. Did you ever hear of him?
-
WHITE
- Larry Steele, no I can't say that I have.
-
NICHOLAS
- Larry Steele, he always worked in Atlantic City at a club they called
Club Harlem, and we worked there with Larry Steele before we worked with
him at the Flamingo in Las Vegas. We did a show there, in the lounge.
And we worked there and then we worked at the Castaways. The Castaways
hotel, there with Louie [Louis] Jordan. We worked there and then we
worked at the Thunderbird hotel. We worked there.
-
WHITE
- You guys were quite busy.
-
NICHOLAS
- We were quite busy. Then we went to the Landmark [hotel]. We worked at
the Thunderbird with— Well, the first time we worked at the Thunderbird,
was in the review called The Ziegfeld Follies of
1965.
-
WHITE
- Yes, of course.
-
NICHOLAS
- We did that one and we came back again to the Thunderbird and worked
with Della Reese. Uh-huh. Then later on we went to the Landmark and
worked with Redd Foxx.
-
WHITE
- Oh, my goodness. You guys were certainly very busy.
-
NICHOLAS
- So we were going from one hotel to the other and then we— Oh yeah, we
worked at the Sahara [Hotel] with this guy who had this puppet called
Madam something. Do you remember that? What was it called? Madam— I
can't remember the name. I'll think about it later and tell you. But we
worked there. This was the first time we danced with the film that was
made in New York for Warner Brothers [in 1936] called The Black Network. And we were singing the
song and dancing to "Lucky Numbers." So we showed that film at the
Sahara Hotel on the screen. We did the same dance on stage that we're
doing on the screen. It was the first time that we did it. And then we
continued doing it at other places. Now the first time that we performed
this at the Sahara, they cut off the sound of the movie and the
orchestra played the same arrangement that the orchestra played in the
film.
-
WHITE
- That must have been terrific.
-
NICHOLAS
- It was terrific. But I said, "I like it better the other way."
-
WHITE
- Oh, did you?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, just the song and the taps were there, too. All right there. So we
did it that way. Oh, okay. We didn't have to have music to give to the
orchestra. It made it better, because if we wanted to do it that way all
the time, we'd have to be carrying this music around and giving it to
musicians to play and maybe the orchestra isn't big enough.
-
WHITE
- Sure, it becomes too problematic doing it that way.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, so let's leave the sound on of the film and just dance with it
like that. So that's what we were doing.
-
WHITE
- So tell me, did you actually move to Las Vegas also, or were you
commuting?
-
NICHOLAS
- I was commuting, and they—my brother and his wife, Elyanne, and their
son, Melih—stayed there. I'd come back to Los Angeles because this was
home to me.
-
WHITE
- You would come back and still reside with your sister, Dorothy?
-
NICHOLAS
- No, I found other places to stay.
-
WHITE
- Oh really? Where did you stay at that time?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, sometimes I would stay with my mother in Compton. That's where
Mother was staying. She had a house there that we had bought for her, so
I'd go stay with her, because she had three bedrooms, so it was easy for
me to stay with her.
-
WHITE
- There was a certain point in time where she moved from the home on Van
Ness over to Compton? What period was that?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, that was like— Let me see now. That was like in the fifties. Yeah,
it was, in the early fifties.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay. You guys moved her over there.
-
NICHOLAS
- We were in Europe. And just before we went to Europe, we saw that she
was well taken care of. It was in the early fifties, yeah.
-
WHITE
- Okay, so you would come back to Los Angeles and you would stay with her.
And who else?
-
NICHOLAS
- I'd find a place to stay. I don't remember where it was [mutual
laughter], but I'd find a little place to stay for a while and I'd give
it up and go back to Vegas to be there with my brother.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay. So what were your thoughts about what was going on in the
Hollywood film scene? Like, for instance, Sidney Poitier, he had been in
Lilies of the Field, I think in 1963—
-
NICHOLAS
- Uh-huh, he won [the Academy Award for Best Actor].
-
WHITE
- —and Guess Who's Coming to Dinner, in
1967. Yeah, what were your thoughts about what was going on in Hollywood
at the time?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, I wasn't doing any movies at the time and all of a sudden— I had
this agent, her name was Lil Cumber. She had me going on interviews and
all the things like that, and then I went to be interviewed by William
Wyler, the great director who won Oscars [Academy Awards] for Ben-Hur and other movies. So I went to his
office. Lil Cumber arranged it. We were there and he didn't ask me to
read or do anything. He was just talking to me. So I told him what I
have done, that I've done a little acting, like in the movie The Big Broadcast of 1936. I did acting in
that. I was in shows like Babes in Arms. I
was acting in that. And I wanted him to know that I was an actor.
-
WHITE
- Sure.
-
NICHOLAS
- See, I acted in St. Louis Woman. I had my
part in that. My name was Barney in that and my brother was named Little
Augie. So it was still the Nicholas Brothers, but the Nicholas Brothers
were singing, dancing, acting, and doing everything. So I told him this.
I told him this, that I've had my experience in acting. I knew that this
movie would call for dramatic acting. I said, "I can do that." And so we
talked and talked, and he was looking at me, and then we finished and I
left. I was staying at my sister's at this time. And Lil Cumber called
me the next day and she said to me, "I want to tell you something." I
said, "Yes, what is it?" She said, "You got the part." I said, "You're
kidding."
-
WHITE
- Excellent.
-
NICHOLAS
- "You got the part for—" "The Liberation of L.B.
Jones, that's the one you're talking about?" "Yes." She said
to me, "I think I know why you got it." I said, " Well, why did I get
it?" She said, "Because you fit the role of this character in the story.
His name is Benny. You're five feet four [inches], you're slender, and
your complexion is the right complexion." She said, "It wasn't because
you told him what a great actor you are. He liked the way you looked."
[laughs]
-
WHITE
- That's half the battle, though.
-
NICHOLAS
- And she said, "If there's any acting to be done, he can bring it out of
you, because he's a great director. But he just wanted that look."
-
WHITE
- Sure.
-
NICHOLAS
- And I said, "Well, I'll be damned. Well, this is the first time I didn't
have to read and do an audition." They just looked at me and said,
"You're the one that we want in this film."
-
WHITE
- That's terrific.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, like this film I'm doing now.
-
WHITE
- Right. Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- Because the writer, he had me in mind.
-
WHITE
- Exactly, when they actually did the casting.
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, that's the way to go. That's the way to go. I used to go on these
things where you'd audition. And they'd give me the script. So I'd look
at it for a while and then they would call me into the room where I'd
see all these guys sitting around. And they're just looking. They're
looking like to say, "Give me blood."
-
WHITE
- Right, entertainment.
-
NICHOLAS
- They don't smile at all.
-
WHITE
- It's very intimidating.
-
NICHOLAS
- You say, "Hello. Good afternoon." They say [in dour voice], "Good
afternoon." That's it. No smiles. And it's like, "Go on. Give me blood."
And I'm reading this script and it's a two part script. There's a lady
involved. Now, a man is reading a part for the lady. I'm supposed to
read this and give them all [this] emotion and he is reading the lady's
part and doesn't give me anything. He's just reading. No emotion or
anything. But I'm the one who's supposed to give all the emotion.
1.14. TAPE NUMBER: VII, SIDE TWO
JUNE 8, 2000
-
WHITE
- You were saying about your audition.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, yeah. Like I said, I was in this room with all these men. The
producers and maybe the director. They are all there. And I have this
script to read to them and there's a lady's part in the script. So
there's a man who's reading the lady's part. Now I'm supposed to give
all the emotion of how this should be done. But he doesn't feed me
anything. He's just reading, just like he's reading a book. And so I'm
supposed to give all the reaction there. I was never good at auditions,
never. So I didn't get the part. I didn't get the part. A lot of times
when Lil Cumber would call me and say, "Fayard, you must go on this
interview. I know you got it. This is for you," she's saying it like
they really picked me. And so I get there and I see this long line of
actors for this one part. I thought I was just going on in.
-
WHITE
- Like you did with L.B. Jones.
-
NICHOLAS
- Like I did— Yeah, right. And so I was disgusted. I said, "Here we go
again with this same thing." So I'm looking at the script and there's a
lady's part in it, too. I said, "It's going to be the same thing. It's
going to be a man." So I go in and there they are, the same way, like
"Give me blood." And I get there and I sit down and I look at the script
and here's this guy with the script. I said, "I'm sorry, fellahs. I
don't need this. Thank you. Goodbye." I walked out.
-
WHITE
- Did you? Good for you.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. I knew the same thing was going to happen. Why should I waste my
time? You see, because they will interview all these different actors
for the same role and then they will pick who they want. There are some
actors who are good at that, at these auditions. The one that they pick
may be the wrong one. He's good at reading, but when he gets before the
camera he's not the same. Now maybe they should have picked me for going
before the camera, but at the readings I'm no good at all. My
brother-in-law, Byron Morrow, who's married to my sister, he's an actor.
He's good when he goes on these interviews, but he can do it both ways.
He'll read and give them a good performance at reading and when he's on
camera, he's good.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- That's good. But I'm only good on camera, not reading. He was telling me
about this wonderful Shakespearian actor, Maurice Evans. Did you ever
hear of him?
-
WHITE
- Yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- He said that he and Maurice Evans went on this thing and were reading
the part. The both of them had lines together they were going to read,
and he said, "Fayard, you know how good Maurice is when you see him on
that screen—oh, he's wonderful. But when he's there reading," he says,
"for instance [speaks in stilted voice], 'the boy went to the store.'"
He said, "He would be reading that way—
-
WHITE
- Oh, no.
-
NICHOLAS
- Instead of giving the performance. He said, "When he's reading, he's
terrible. But when he's on that screen or on stage, he's marvelous."
-
WHITE
- Sure, it's a different skill.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, but you see, when he's reading— He said, "Fayard, he's terrible."
And so the producers, they know that he does great performances, so they
don't say he's not good because he doesn't read well. They say, "We know
he's going to be good." So he's just reading what the script is all
about, whatever it is. So he said, "Fayard, don't feel bad. Maurice
Evans doesn't read, either."
-
WHITE
- Okay. So tell me now, how was your experience in The Liberation of L.B. Jones? That was with Lola Falana, if
I'm not mistaken. How was your experience in that film?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, we had a wonderful time. Wonderful time. It was— Barbara Hershey was
in it and Lee J. Cobb. Let's see, who else was in it? All well-known
actors. Yaphet Kotto—He was also on this TV series not too long ago—
-
WHITE
-
Homicide.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. He also was in the film. And Lola Falana, and let me see who else.
The guy who was the Bionic Man [on the television series The Six Million Dollar Man].
-
WHITE
- The Bionic Man? Lee Majors?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, Lee Majors. He was in it, too. All these well-known actors were in
this film, and there I am, Fayard Nicholas, one of the Nicholas
Brothers, doing the dramatic part without singing or dancing, uh-huh. It
worked out well. Everybody connected with the film liked me, and I saw
they were praising me and everything. Then we had a reception where they
invited the press, and naturally they wanted to talk to everybody. So
they started to talk to me, and I told them about the story and the part
I played and how everything— And then they'd say, "Hey, now we know
something about the story," because I was telling them everything about
it, all the details. The actors, they didn't tell them anything. They
were just there posing for pictures.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- And they wanted to know more about it. Then I thought I would be getting
more parts, but nobody called me up.
-
WHITE
- Exactly, in your archival records, it said that you looked for other
roles based on your success in that film, but no one called.
-
NICHOLAS
- Nobody called me. I guess Lil Cumber was still trying to get me in other
films. But she did get me on a Bob Hope television [special].
-
WHITE
- Okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- At that time Sammy Davis, Jr. was the special guest on the Bob Hope
show. And so I had a little part in there with Frenchy. Do you know a
dancer, his name is Frenchy? They call him Frenchy.
-
WHITE
- No, I don't. I have not heard of him.
-
NICHOLAS
- No? His— Oh, I can't think of his real name, but they call him Frenchy.
He was also in the show. Let me see, how did it go? I think it was the
thing where Sammy Davis, Jr. was looking for a dancer and I was
Frenchy's agent. And Sammy said, "I want this dancer." And I said, "Oh,
Mr. Davis. I've got the man for you. Here he is. He's a dancer. He can
do this. He's done that." And then I go and show him, "This is what my
man can do." And I'm dancing. My dancer is just there looking, and I'm
dancing. "He does this and he does that." And Sammy said, "Oh, that's
great. You're good." I say, "Wait a minute, it's not me. He's the
dancer." But I had shown him what my dancer does.
-
WHITE
- Right, as his agent.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, as his agent. Oh, that was funny.
-
WHITE
- That's interesting. That sounds like a fun experience.
-
NICHOLAS
- I did that. That was one of the shows I did by myself, and Lil Cumber,
she got that job for me.
-
WHITE
- I'm sorry, who got the job for you?
-
NICHOLAS
- The Lil Cumber agency. Oh, she's still an agent, and she books for
commercials and television and movies. All those types of things. So she
did some nice things for me.
-
WHITE
- Now, I get the impression, based on some of the archival records, that
at that time many black Americans saw the Nicholas Brothers as sort of
an old stereotype from an unenlightened Hollywood time.
-
NICHOLAS
- Who saw that? Who?
-
WHITE
- In some of the archival records.
-
NICHOLAS
- Really? Is that what they said? You mean, these were black entertainers,
not the white entertainers?
-
WHITE
- Not necessarily entertainers, just black Americans in general. They saw
the brothers as an old stereotype.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, you mean like the ones who payed the money to see?
-
WHITE
- Sure.
-
NICHOLAS
- And who said that?
-
WHITE
- I don't have specific names. It's just the general feeling that—
-
NICHOLAS
- But the general public had that feeling that— Say that again.
-
WHITE
- That they saw the brothers as an old stereotype from sort of an
unenlightened Hollywood era.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, stereo? What do you mean stereo? What is that? I don't know that.
-
WHITE
- Well, stereotype in the sense of the idea that the style of tap dancing
that you guys performed was of another time, of another era, and they
associated it with sort of a Steppin Fetchit, stereotypical kind of a
performance.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, now how could they say that? We were nothing like that. And then, in
that way, they were not only talking about the Nicholas Brothers, they
were talking about Fred Astaire and Gene Kelly, because we were all in
that area. During that time we were very popular: Nicholas Brothers,
Fred Astaire, Gene Kelly, Bill Robinson, and Eleanor Powell and Ann
Miller. We were all in that area at that time, and we were all very
popular. People were paying to see us. So how they were putting that—
Oh, they wanted to get to what they— Rock and roll was their thing.
-
WHITE
- Probably, at that point in time, yeah.
-
NICHOLAS
- And the rapping.
-
WHITE
- Well, rapping came a bit later, in the eighties, but in the seventies
there was another sort of black aesthetic coming around where— There
were a lot of independent films, for instance, being made and a lot of
more independent actors and that sort of thing. Like, for instance, the
black exploitation films, like Superfly
and Shaft. So it was a different kind of
an era with a more current mindset.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, I remember, I saw those movies.
-
WHITE
- Yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- There were a lot of those movies.
-
WHITE
- Yeah, a lot of them. What are your thoughts on some of those
blaxploitation films?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, they were all right. Shaft was the
first one that I payed any attention to. Then they went on to these
other types of things they do, like a gangster type of thing and—
-
WHITE
-
Superfly
-
NICHOLAS
-
Superfly. And Cotton
Comes to Harlem, or something like that? Then they had Pam
Grier in—
-
WHITE
-
Coffy. [mutual laughter]
-
NICHOLAS
-
Coffy. They wanted to make film after film
after film. I was never approached to play in any of those films.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- I guess they were just thinking of my brother and me as singers and
dancers.
-
WHITE
- That's true.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, and maybe that's why we weren't called.
-
WHITE
- Do you think you would have agreed to perform in some of those films?
-
NICHOLAS
- I don't know if I would have or not. My brother, he was in Uptown Saturday Night with Bill Cosby, Harry
Belafonte, and Sidney Poitier.
-
WHITE
- Exactly.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. Well, how would you classify that film? Would you classify it with
those others?
-
WHITE
- Oh, no. No, it wouldn't be considered blaxploitation, no.
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, they did call my brother for that film.
-
WHITE
- That film, Uptown Saturday Night, had more
of a humorous sort of comedic flare. There was a certain formula that
was associated with black exploitation films, and this one didn't fit
into that genre.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. But I can't understand how they were sort of putting down the
Nicholas Brothers and what they did, and all of a sudden what they were
doing didn't have class—The Nicholas Brothers had class. I don't
understand how they were going to put us in that type of category.
-
WHITE
- Different generation. Different things were important to different
people at that time.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, but isn't it something? Today they're still showing our films.
Every day they're showing our films on television.
-
WHITE
- Oh, yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- And this young generation today, they like it.
-
WHITE
- Absolutely. I think it was just this period in the sixties and
seventies, when there was such change and such turmoil, particularly in
the black American community. What had happened in the thirties was not
necessarily appreciated, because they were so involved with what was
happening at that point in time. But in the 1980s, of course, we see a
resurgence in tap dancing, a resurgence of interest and the popularity
of tap dancing. You know, The Tap Dancing
Kid and Gregory Hines and a number of other different vehicles
that sort of brought it back to the forefront. People developed a deeper
appreciation for it in the 1980s, but the 1960s and seventies, I think,
were very particular, special decades that didn't really appreciate the
history and the talent of the people in the 1930s during the Harlem
Renaissance, you know, performers like yourself. Let's just backtrack
for a few moments. We've been talking about what you've been doing in
your professional career at this point in time. I know that you got
married again, to Barbara January, I believe back in 1967.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. Yeah, that's right.
-
WHITE
- Okay. All right. Can you tell me about that? How did you meet her?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, the first time I met her I didn't know I did. [laughs]
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- We were in New York City—in Manhattan, that is. There was a club there
where Bill Bailey— Do you remember him?
-
WHITE
- Yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- Pearl Bailey's brother, he was appearing there. I went by to see the
show and they had all of these lovely girls, like dancing showgirls, and
Barbara—she was Barbara January at the time—was in the show. She wasn't
a dancer, but the choreographer arranged it so it looked like she was
dancing, because she'd walk across the stage. She was a model.
-
WHITE
- Right. A very famous model, I understand.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes, she was, so she knew how to walk, and she would walk in and he'd
show her a little step that she could do. And so she was in this show.
After the show all of the girls came over to our table and wanted to
talk to us, and so we got acquainted. Bill Bailey came over, too. So my
brother and I said, "Let's go have breakfast"—because it was like four
o'clock in the morning. The shows run late, there in New York. I said,
"Let's go." So we went to one of the restaurants and invited all the
girls and Bill Bailey and everybody else to come over and have breakfast
with us. So they did. And that's how I met her, but I didn't know that I
had met her. I was in Las Vegas at the Desert Inn and we were playing
there with Lionel Hampton and Freda Payne. And after we did our show, we
were working in the lounge. Lounge was big in those days.
-
WHITE
- Yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- Like in the sixties. We went to the restaurant in the hotel. I was
sitting there with two of these tall showgirls. I had a blond on this
side and a redhead on the other side, and I'm sitting right in the
middle there—we're there talking and having our Coca-Cola. All of a
sudden I see this pretty little girl with a man and I'm looking and I
just said, "Hello, there." She looked and she saw me and she said,
"Aah." And she came running over and she's pushing the other girls so
that she can sit down. [mutual laughter] Not really like that, but she
wanted to— "I want to sit here and talk to Fayard." So she started
talking to me. She said, "Don't you remember me?" I said, "No, I don't."
And she said, "Don't you remember when you came to this nightclub to see
Bill Bailey? I was one of the dancing girls in the show." I said, "You
were?" She said, "Yes, don't you—?" And she told me all of it: "Don't
you remember you invited all of us to have breakfast? You took us to a
restaurant?" I said, "I remember that; I don't remember you. But I'm
happy to meet you." She was with her ex-husband, named Caleb Peterson.
You ever hear of him?
-
WHITE
- No, I haven't.
-
NICHOLAS
- No? He was like an opera singer. Yes, and he— Caleb Peterson. And so she
was there with him and she said, "We came in to have a little bite." I
said, "Well, get your table and I'll come over later." So they went and
got their table and I'm still with these two girls. And I said, "Girls,
I'm going over to see my friend and I'll see you a little later." I left
these two gorgeous girls to go with another gorgeous girl. [mutual
laughter]
-
WHITE
- Poor thing.
-
NICHOLAS
- I went over and started talking to them. I asked them what they were
doing here. They told me that Caleb Peterson was doing a concert, and
she was helping to sell tickets. She said she was like his secretary
because she took care of all the paperwork and the business. She told me
where they were staying—it was a hotel there—and she let me know right
away they had separate rooms. There was no hankypanky just because they
used to be married. They weren't together anymore.
-
WHITE
- She wanted to make that very clear.
-
NICHOLAS
- Very clear. And I found out that they were divorced, and they weren't
together in any way and they weren't trying to get back together. It was
just business. I said, "Would you like to go out with me, say tomorrow?"
And she said, "Yes. Just call me." She gave me the number and
everything. So we started going to different places. I took her to— I
think it was the Dunes Hotel, which isn't there anymore; it's torn down.
We went to the Sky Room and there was this big orchestra there. Let me
see, I forget the name of the orchestra. And we danced. Oh, we just had
a wonderful time. We danced and so I said, "Would you like to go other
places with me?" So we did. We were going to the different hotels, and
we didn't gamble, because I don't gamble.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- I just like to see other people losing their money. I say, "Oh, you
sorry soul. Oh." I say, "Do like I do. Keep the money. Don't give it to
them, because that's what you're doing. That's why they can run these
hotels, because you're coming in here and giving all your money to them
when you gamble."
-
WHITE
- That's for sure.
-
NICHOLAS
- There are some who hit the jackpot. Very few, though. And I think that's
why they keep coming back. They say, "Oh, he won that. He won one
million dollars! Let me go there. Maybe I can do it, too." So everybody
has a chance.
-
WHITE
- Right. So you guys were spending a lot of time in Las Vegas, but you
were living in Los Angeles.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, I was living in Los Angeles.
-
WHITE
- Okay. But you spent quite a bit of time in Las Vegas?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes, the only time I would say I might be living there was that when I'd
be doing a show for maybe a month or two months, I'd have a place to
stay.
-
WHITE
- I see. Okay. So at what point did you decide that you wanted her to be
your wife?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, I was in Atlantic City appearing at the Club Harlem with Larry
Steele, who was a producer of the show. We were in that show, oh, I
think it was two months, two months or more. And we were always being
the featured act, but each week, they would bring in another star, like
what's her name, Dionne Warwicke. Dionne Warwicke would be there and
Slappy White. Slappy White and the Nicholas Brothers stayed for the
whole two or three months.
-
WHITE
- You said "Slappy White"?
-
NICHOLAS
- Slappy White used to be with Redd Foxx. They were a team.
-
WHITE
- Okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- So we'd perform each week, and Barbara, she was there with me. She would
come to see the show in Atlantic City. We became very good friends. We
went to Philadelphia, where one of her sisters stays. There were five
sisters. Vivian [Vaughters] was the one that stayed in Philadelphia. She
had sisters that stayed up in the Bay Area, San Francisco. Another one
stayed in San Bernardino, and there was one staying in Los Angeles and
Barbara would be staying— She stayed in Los Angeles. She had her own
apartment. So she was visiting her sister Vivian in Philadelphia.
Barbara and I were so close that when we would go to her sister's
house—with her husband—she had a special room for us. Now we weren't
married, but we stayed together. And I guess because her sister liked me
so much, that was all right. So we were driving in the car— Vivian was
driving and she said, "Why don't you two get married?" Just like that. I
said, "Well, yeah. How about that?" Barbara said, "Well, I guess so,"
and Vivian said, "Don't worry about it, I've got it all fixed." She
called the preacher and everything, took us to the church and got us
married.
-
WHITE
- You're kidding. And where were you? You were in Las Vegas at the time?
-
NICHOLAS
- No, this is in Philadelphia. I met her in Las Vegas. We kept
corresponding. We'd call each other. And then when I started doing shows
in Atlantic City, we'd get together and we'd go to Philadelphia and her
sister arranged where we'd get married.
-
WHITE
- Wow, how'd you feel about that?
-
NICHOLAS
- I felt good.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- But after we got married, we got into the car and Barbara was saying,
"Did it happen?" She was confused. "It did happen." I said, "Yeah, we're
husband and wife now."
-
WHITE
- Wow, boy!
-
NICHOLAS
- And she was still flabbergasted. I said, "Wake up, Barbara. It really
happened."
-
WHITE
- Oh, sort of knocked the wind out of her.
-
NICHOLAS
- That was in 1967.
-
WHITE
- Right. Where did you guys make your home?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, I stayed in her apartment right after we got married—
-
WHITE
- In Las Vegas?
-
NICHOLAS
- No, no. In Los Angeles.
-
WHITE
- In Los Angeles. She had an apartment in Los Angeles, okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, you're getting the two cities mixed up.
-
WHITE
- Okay, I'm clear now.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, I told you what happened in Las Vegas, then we went to Atlantic
City, and we went to Philadelphia and we got married. And now we're—
-
WHITE
- In Los Angeles.
-
NICHOLAS
- In Los Angeles now. So we stayed in her apartment.
-
WHITE
- Where was her apartment?
-
NICHOLAS
- It was really in West Hollywood.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- On Harper Avenue. It was a duplex apartment—we stayed upstairs and we
had a little terrace where we'd come out and sit down and have chairs
and the table, and drink our lemonade or whatever and look out and see
all the other people walking and the cars going by. It was very nice.
She had a very nice apartment, so I stayed with her and we were there
for a while. I remember when I was doing The
Liberation of L.B. Jones we were staying there.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay. So you were close by.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, that was in 1970.
-
WHITE
- Right, exactly. Okay on that note, we're going to go ahead and end the
interview for today.
-
NICHOLAS
- Okay.
1.15. TAPE NUMBER: VIII, SIDE ONE
JUNE 15, 2000
-
WHITE
- How are you today?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, I'm still rolling along.
-
WHITE
- Good, good. Glad to hear it. Well, the last time we spoke, we wrapped up
our conversation really just talking a bit about some of the
blaxploitation [black exploitation] films that were out and just
chatting a bit about that. So I want to move on from there and talk a
little bit with you about some health challenges that you had around
1975. You had some arthritis in your hips.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes, yes. When I first realized that I had arthritis, I didn't know
what was happening with me. It must have been in 1973, I think it was. I
was still working with my brother [Harold Nicholas] and doing these
splits and things like that and we were doing a tour with Sammy Davis,
Jr., theater in the round, and we went to Europe with him. And here I'm
in pain trying to do these things that I used to do and I'm just having
trouble. And so my brother said, "Don't do that. Just let me do it." He
said, "When I go down in the split, you bring me down in the split with
your hands and then when I come up, you bring me up with your hands."
And it worked out well and all the other things I could do pretty good,
just tapping, because I did impressions of all the different dancers and
I had special music to do it. My brother would sit offstage on a stool
as I'm doing these different impressions—like I'd do Bill Robinson, Fred
Astaire, Roy Bolger, Gene Kelly, Eleanor Powell, Jose Greco. And
sometimes, when I'd— Maybe I'd do Ray Bolger and my brother would say,
"Oh, I know who that is. Oh, yeah. That's Bob Hope." And then the
audience would laugh because they'd know that's not Bob Hope. That's Ray
Bolger that I'm doing, and they recognize everything that I'm doing. And
that was fine. But sometimes, to do those splits, there would be— Like
my brother and I would do a run and split and slide. Well, I would just
run and he'd go down and slide and I'd come up and shake his hand or
something. So it worked out fine. But then it was too bad. And Sammy
Davis, Jr., he could see what was happening. It was in 1975 that I just
said, "I can't do it anymore." So it was like I was going to retire. My
brother, he did a single, because he's really versatile. He's a great
singer. He sings in five languages and he was doing his single act. Some
places, if there's a stage large enough to dance, he would dance a
little bit. But he would do these supper clubs and all he'd do is sit on
the stool and just sing. Just sing. He's a great entertainer. So in 1975
it was 10 years that I was suffering. I remember my brother and I, we
were out here and they were doing this film called That's Dancing produced by Jack Haley, Jr. It was over at
Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer, when it was [still] Metro-Goldwyn- Mayer, out there
in Culver City. It had all the dancers you could think of. Everybody was
there. Oh, gee, Sammy Davis, Jr. was there, Paula Kelly, Ginger Rogers,
Gene Kelly, Fred Astaire, Gene Nelson, Buddy Ebsen, Shirley MacLaine,
and every dancer you could think of. We were there. And we had a
luncheon there, at Metro. They took pictures of all of us. I was walking
around with my cane. Roy Bolger saw me and he said, "Well, what's the
matter, Fayard?" I said, "Ray, I have arthritis." He said, "You have
arthritis?" I said, "Yes, I have." He said, "Fayard, I have arthritis,
too." I said, "You do?" Then he started dancing, kicking up his legs and
turning. I said, "Wait a minute, how can you do that and you have
arthritis?" He said, "Fayard, I had an operation on my hips. That's why
I can do that. You should have it done, too." Now you see, I didn't want
anybody cutting on me.
-
WHITE
- Sure.
-
NICHOLAS
- I didn't know, because maybe they'd cut on me and maybe I'd be worse. So
that's why I wasn't so cool about having this operation. And Gene Kelly
was there and Jack Haley, Jr. and they said, "Listen to Ray, Fayard.
Have that operation." And so I started thinking. So when I went back to
the Motion Picture and Television [Fund] Country House, I talked to the
board of directors and said, "I think I want to have an operation on my
hip." So that's fine. They said, "We know the doctor who would do this
for you. His name is Dr. Koshak." And I said, "Okay." So I got in touch
with the doctor, I found out his telephone number and we got together. I
went to the hospital, the Northridge Hospital, out here in the [San
Fernando] Valley, the city of Los Angeles—I always put that in because
people don't know that all of this is the city of Los Angeles.
-
WHITE
- Right, that's correct.
-
NICHOLAS
- We talked, I listened to him, he listened to me, and he told me what
would happen, complications there could be. He said, "But I've done this
operation many times and there hasn't been any trouble." But he just
wanted to let me know what could happen.
-
WHITE
- Certainly.
-
NICHOLAS
- Then he said, " I want you to go to the clinic and have them draw your
blood, because if we have to have a transfusion, we have your blood, no
other [person's]." So I went for four weeks; four pints of blood, I
think. But it was lucky—I didn't have to use it.
-
WHITE
- Good.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. So I went there to have the operation and I said, "I'd like a
spinal. Give me a spinal, I want to be awake when this goes on."
-
WHITE
- Oh, you're kidding.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yeah. Well, I couldn't feel anything, see? And so they said, "Okay.
We have a lady who's a specialist in this type of thing." So she said
"Bend over" and she put the needle in my spine. She said, "Don't move."
I said, "I'm not going to move!" I could feel the needle as it was going
in, just a pinch. And then the anesthesia. I was numb from here down.
-
WHITE
- Oh, my.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, and then they took me to the operating room and the doctor was
there. "Hi, Doc!" [laughs] There were two of them there. They had a
screen in front of me so I couldn't see what was going on. So they
started doing the operation on the right hip. The nurse was coming by
and saying, "How are you doing, Mr. Nicholas?" "I'm doing fine." And
she'd come back again, and I was talking to her and telling her jokes
and we were just laughing and carrying on. Five times she was coming by,
saying, "How are you doing, Mr. Nicholas?" I said, "I'm doing fine,
sweetheart. But tell me, how are they doing?" And she said, "Don't worry
about it. They've done this many, many times so you have nothing to
worry about." After it was all over the doctors came over to me and
said, "Well, that's it. It's finished." I said, "How long did it take?"
They said, "Two hours." I said, "It felt like fifteen minutes." Well, I
guess I was just having so much fun with this nurse, I didn't know what
time it was. The time was just going by, yeah. Then they took me to my
room, there at the hospital, Northridge Hospital. I was there and I was
thinking in my mind, "Now when the anesthesia wears off, there will be
no pain." That was in my mind. "No pain." And there wasn't.
-
WHITE
- Really?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, no pain. During the time that I was recuperating, all the nurses
would come by. Like two of them would come by and I'd have them laughing
and carrying on. Ah, they were having so much fun. And one of them said,
"I'll be right back." And she went back and she brought some other
nurses. So I did my show [mutual laughter] with all these nurses. Oh my
goodness, there must have been about six, seven, or eight of them. They
were all there having fun with me. And there I was recuperating and I
said, "No pain." No pain. Now they're saying that "we don't want you to
stay in bed and just to feel sorry for yourself or anything. You must
get up and walk." Yes. So the next day they got me up right away.
-
WHITE
- The very next day?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, with a walker. So I was walking around. After that, they had me on
the crutches, and after the crutches, the cane. So I was in Northridge
Hospital for ten days and then they transferred me to the hospital out
there, the Motion Picture and Television [Fund] Hospital. I was there
seven days, going through therapy and all the different things and
getting stronger and better and just walking with my cane now. They
released me on a Tuesday from the Motion Picture and Television Hospital
and Thursday I was on a plane going to London to do a special television
show called Cotton Club Remembered.
-
WHITE
- You're kidding.
-
NICHOLAS
- No. I was doing it with my brother. It was at the Ritz Hotel in London,
where the queen would go every afternoon to have her tea. [mutual
laughter] I was doing the show with my brother, with my cane and
tapping. The cane was making more taps than my feet.
-
WHITE
- Okay. Well, this was within three weeks of the surgery, right?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, how about that!
-
WHITE
- That's terrific. You're pretty resilient.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, I guess I healed easily.
-
WHITE
- Sure.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, and these operations were six months apart, because then I had the
other hip done.
-
WHITE
- Okay, right.
-
NICHOLAS
- So it was great there in London. We had a great time. Cab Calloway was
on the show and Adelaide Hall and Max Roach, the drummer, and the
trumpet player— let me see, I think his name is Chi Chi, or something
like that. Very good trumpet player. And we did this show. First it was
shown in England and then here, I think on PBS—that's KCET, channel 28.
So that's what happened. Six months later, I had the other hip done and
went through the same thing, spinal and all of that.
-
WHITE
- You had a similar recovery time with the second one?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, and then I thought the same thing. "There will be no pain. No
pain." The nurses were coming around all the time and I was entertaining
them. And with the walker and the crutches and the cane. Then after I
was getting better we were doing shows out there at the Motion Picture
and Television Country House every year. Paula Stone was the producer of
this show; she would write it, she would choreograph it, and be the
mistress of ceremonies. She did the whole thing and she always asked me
to be a part of the show. So now I was better. Yeah, I was better now
and dancing a little bit, and so I would do these shows every year with
her and this time I invited my doctor to come and see the show. Yeah, I
invited him to come and see the show. And I was performing with a little
girl. Her name is— I have got to find out her name. Oh, it's been so
long ago.
-
WHITE
- No problem.
-
NICHOLAS
- I think her last name is Lane. Her first name— I'll find out.
-
WHITE
- Okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- We were doing this number together and it was like a little soft-shoe
that we did. And after we did the soft-shoe she said to me, "You don't
need that cane." Because I was dancing with the cane. She said, "You
don't need that cane." I said, "Yes, I do. This is my crutch, it holds
me up. I can't dance without this cane." She says, "Oh, yes you can."
And she took it from me and she threw it off the stage. And then I was
without the cane. Holy Christmas. I said, "What am I going to do?" She
said, "Go on. You can do it without the cane." I said, "Okay." And I
started dancing. Well, I could dance better then than I can dance now.
-
WHITE
- Sure.
-
NICHOLAS
- And I went through— [makes tapping noises] and I did the old standby
[hums the "shave and a haircut" beat]. And the audience— [clapping]
"Yay! Yay, yay, yay!" Then we did another number together, and I did
this number without the cane. I would dance around her, then she would
go up and I'd follow her, and I'd look at the audience and I'd say,
"Later."
-
WHITE
- She was right after all.
-
NICHOLAS
- I went to my dressing room when the show was over, after we did our
finale. And my doctor came by and he says, "Oh, my goodness. Everybody,
they were pulling for you out there. Performing without your cane, and
you're out there dancing like a teenager and everybody's thinking, 'I
hope he doesn't fall.' There were tears in their eyes." And he said, "I
almost had a heart attack." He was pulling for me. "Oh my goodness. I
hope he makes it." And he said, "Oh, Mr. Nicholas, don't ever do that
again. Please don't do that." I said, "Doctor, I know just how far to
go. I know what I can do and what I cannot do. You have nothing to worry
about. I know exactly. I'm not going to do anymore of those splits. I'd
be crazy to do that." [laughs] He said, "Okay, Mr. Nicholas. Just take
it easy, because you were one of my special patients."
-
WHITE
- Aw, that's nice.
-
NICHOLAS
- So that's what happened with this operation.
-
WHITE
- Overall it was a pretty good experience. I mean, it relieved a lot of
the pain and the recovery was very short.
-
NICHOLAS
- Uh-huh. And let me tell you this— I get x-rays of my hips every year.
-
WHITE
- Okay, good.
-
NICHOLAS
- And they're still in place. That was in 1985, and this is the year 2000,
and they're still in place.
-
WHITE
- That's great. Fifteen years ago. Yeah, that doctor was quite
accomplished and proficient.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, he was wonderful. Wonderful. He doesn't practice anymore now, he's
retired. I'm so thankful for him because, like I told you, I didn't want
to have this operation.
-
WHITE
- Right. Speaking of which, let's just back up for a few moments. I
understand that before you actually decided to have a hip replacement in
1984 you actually moved to the Motion Picture and Television Fund
Country House.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, in 1984. Yeah.
-
WHITE
- From my research it says that one of the reasons you decided to move
there is because you had been robbed when you were living in Hollywood.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, oh my goodness. Yes, it was terrible, it was terrible. It really
was terrible. I was living with my mother in Compton, California. I
remember the first time that they broke into the house. I was going to
take my laundry to have it cleaned at one of the places where you can do
it yourself— Laundromat they call it, don't they? As I was driving away
I saw all these guys were outside—talking like they do, talking about
girls or whatever. I saw them looking at me as I was driving away. All
of them stopped talking and were just looking at me. I didn't realize
what was going on, so I drove away. They were watching me to find out
when I would leave the house. They made up their minds to come and rob
it, because they thought I was a millionaire.
-
WHITE
- Okay, sure. Fayard Nicholas.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, Fayard Nicholas. So after I washed the clothes and everything, and
I came back and looked, the front door is open and the place is just
torn up. They stole the television and the radio. They tried to get the
couch out of the place, but it was too big. They couldn't get it out the
door, because they had to do things fast, you see. Maybe they could have
gotten it out if they had had more time. But they had moved it and the
couch was in the kitchen; they tried to get it out the back door. And
then my music was all on the floor. And they were searching for money
but there wasn't any money. My wife Barbara [January Nicholas] was also
staying there with me. She had some money, but she put it in something
like a box of cornflakes or something and put it up on the shelf. That's
the last place they would look for money. I knew where it was so I
looked up there. The money was still there. "Ha, ha. You guys weren't so
smart after all."
-
WHITE
- Exactly. Outsmarted the robbers.
-
NICHOLAS
- I can get another television set and radio. But all my music was all
over the floor. I had to pick it up and put it back together.
-
WHITE
- It's an awful feeling. You feel so violated.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, and that was the first time that someone broke into the house.
Then I put bars on the windows and the doors. That didn't stop them.
-
WHITE
- They came again?
-
NICHOLAS
- They broke the bars, yeah.
-
WHITE
- They broke the bars?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. Boy, they were desperate.
-
WHITE
- Sure, they were determined. That's for sure. So that, of course,
prompted you to decide to go ahead and move, and move into the
retirement community.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes, when I found out about the Motion Picture and Television Country
House, I went to the office. There was an office on La Brea [Avenue] and
Beverly [Boulevard], and I went by and spoke to this lady. Her name is
Veronica. I said, "I'm thinking about moving out there, to the Motion
Picture and Television Fund [Country House]." And she said, "Okay.
Here's the application you can sign. I want to tell you this— It's going
to take about four or five years before you can move out there." I said,
"Well let me sign now. I don't want to wait ten years."
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- And I said to her, "Can my wife move out there with me?" She said, "Yes.
Bring her in tomorrow." I said, "Okay." So I took her there and
introduced her. I said, "This is my wife, Barbara. This is Veronica."
She looked at Barbara and she said, "Oh, Mr. Nicholas, oh, she's very
pretty." I said, "Well, thank you." She said, "But she can't move out
there." I said, "Well, what do you mean she can't move out there?"
"She's too young." I said, "Well, if she can't move out there, I don't
want to move out there."
-
WHITE
- Certainly.
-
NICHOLAS
- And she said, "Take it easy, Mr. Nicholas. I'll see what can be done."
So she called me back in about three days. We went to the office and she
said, "I have some news for you, Mr. Nicholas. Your wife can move out
there with you." I said, "Oh, that's great. But I still have to wait for
four or five years." She said, "Yes, maybe so." So she said, "Well,
we'll keep in touch." I said, "That's fine." And then in about two
weeks, she called me again to come to the office. I said, "Okay. What
news do you have for me now?" She said, "Mr. Nicholas, you can move out
there now." I said, "Wait a minute, what strings did you pull?" She
said, "I'll tell you this. They have double cottages out there that are
empty. Nobody's living in them. The long line is the single people,
they're waiting. But these double cottages are there and nobody's living
in them, so they decided that you can move out there with your wife
now."
-
WHITE
- Oh, excellent.
-
NICHOLAS
- And that was in 1984. We signed the application in 1984 and moved out
there in 1984. That was in July. They gave us a month to get everything,
because I said, "Wait a minute." [laughs]
-
WHITE
- It took you off guard a little bit.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, it took me off guard. I said, "I've got to get all my things."
They said, "Well, they'll give you a month to move your things out
there." I said, "Well that's fine. That's fine." So that's what
happened. And I got my sons to help me move out there because they had a
truck so that we could move clothes and everything. When I first moved
out there, I was moved to cottage 51. There was a couple who was in this
cottage, and they were moving out of the cottage and going back to this
jungle where we are now.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay. The urban sprawl.
-
NICHOLAS
- So we saw it and said, "Oh, that's nice, very nice." So we got our
pictures together and put them up on the walls, and we moved into
cottage 51. And it was fine. It was fine— We met all the residents and
got acquainted with everybody and met Paula Stone, who wanted to do the
shows at our theater out there, called the Louis B. Mayer Memorial
Theatre. That's where we performed. This is the theater where we show
first run motion pictures every Thursday and every Sunday, first run,
just like they are in the big theaters. We get them at the same time.
And the studios donate these films to us; we don't have to pay for them.
And the residents, when we go to the theater to see these films, it's
free for us. If we have friends who would like to come and see they can
come with us, as long as they're with us, and go in free. But there are
people who will come who would like to see these movies, because when
they go to the first run theater it costs $8.
-
WHITE
- Sure, $8.50.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, something like that. So when they come to our theater, they can
donate what they want to. They can give $2 or maybe $5. See, they don't
have to pay $8.50. Whatever they want to give—$1. And go right on in.
Give whatever you like. And so it's nice, it's nice. And we've got the
hospital right there. If you're sick and if you're not really bad, you
can walk to the hospital and see the doctor. Of course, they have little
cars, like a little tram, where you can get on and they drive you over
to the hospital.
-
WHITE
- It's a very special place.
-
NICHOLAS
- Very special. Very.
-
WHITE
- In fact, I know that it's one of the only industries—film and
television, obviously—with a retirement community and a hospital that
work without the benefit of government funding. It's one of the very
few.
-
NICHOLAS
- One of the very few. Yeah. It's like— If you want to retire, that's the
place. You see, you have to be in motion pictures or television for
twenty years. Then you become eligible to move out there.
-
WHITE
- Right, you also have to—
-
NICHOLAS
- And they take good care of you, yeah.
-
WHITE
- Exactly. It's my understanding that you also have to have earned more
than half of your income from movies and television.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yeah. Well, when I was making motion pictures, something came out of
my check every week, and it went towards the fund.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- That's why I can move out there, because all my money's there.
-
WHITE
- This is an investment you've been making for a number of years. That's
your place.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah.
-
WHITE
- You and all the residents.
-
NICHOLAS
- That's my place, right.
-
WHITE
- Well, let's see. So things continued along from that point and you had
your surgery in 1985. Now around this period of time it seems there was
a resurgence of interest in tap dancing. Sort of a revival in the
theater world. I think there was a play called My
One and Only. There was The Tap Dance
Kid and 42nd Street.
-
NICHOLAS
- And then there was Sophisticated Ladies.
-
WHITE
- Exactly. And Gregory Hines sort of brought the notoriety back to the
forefront.
-
NICHOLAS
- Let me tell you this story about Gregory Hines. Gregory Hines retired
and he was here in Los Angeles, that place in Los Angeles called Venice.
-
WHITE
- Yes, it's a beach community.
-
NICHOLAS
- By the beach. He was there like a maître d'[hôtel] in this restaurant
and he was playing drums, had his combo. He was just having fun, just
having a ball. He used to work with his father and his brother.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- And they called the team—let me see, what did they call it—Hines, Hines,
and Dad. Dad played the drums and the boys would sing and dance and do
their thing. All of a sudden they separated, broke up the trio. And so
Gregory just wanted to do what he wanted to do. He went out to Venice
there and became this maître d'. He'd invite people as they would come
and he would seat them where they wanted and all that, and then he would
do little shows for them. And all of a sudden they were getting a show
together they called Eubie! And it was a
musical about Eubie Blake.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- Like this song he wrote, "Memories of You." Do you remember that show?
-
WHITE
- Yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- Maurice Hines was rehearsing for this show and the producers loved him.
They were crazy about him. Now, Henry LeTang was the choreographer for
the show. So Henry went to the producers and said, "Look, this will be a
better show if we had Gregory Hines in the show with his brother. It
would be the Hines Brothers." And they said, "Fine. Oh, that's great.
Oh, we're crazy about Maurice. That's fine. Why don't we send for
Gregory to come here and be in the show?" And so the producer said,
"Okay. We'll send for him." So they sent for Gregory to come to the
theater to be there. They were there for rehearsal and they said, "Okay,
Mr. Hines, get up and just do something for us." So Gregory went up and
he was just doing like this [demonstrates], real nonchalantly. No energy
at all, because he's one that doesn't like to rehearse. My brother
doesn't like to rehearse, and some other dancers, they don't like to
rehearse. When it's time for the show, wow, they give their best
performance. So Gregory was doing like that, just taking it easy. And so
the producer called Henry over and said, "Listen, this guy is no good.
Look at him." Henry said, "He's fine, he's fine, don't worry about him."
He said, "Yeah? I don't like him." He said, "Listen, tomorrow, we'll
come and see—" So the next day Gregory gets up on stage and he's the
same way. He doesn't do anything. Just like this, so unconcerned. [The
producer] said, "Henry, come here. I told you this guy is lousy. Now
Maurice is great. He's wonderful. He's very professional. He does
everything well." And so Henry said, "Listen, I'll tell you how much
faith I have in this man. If he doesn't do a good show, you can have all
of my salary. That's how much faith I have in him. I know he's great."
He said, "What? You will give all—" He said, "Yeah. You can take all of
my money. That's how much faith I have in him. I know how great he is."
And so they did the show. The producer said, "If he likes him that much,
he must be something." Gregory was the best thing in the show. He got
the best write-ups. When he gets on that stage he gives his all.
Naturally he worked with his brother. But then they both did solos and
Gregory did his solo and the people just went wild about it.
-
WHITE
- Oh, my goodness.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, and so that started Gregory back. He might still be in Venice if
they hadn't called.
-
WHITE
- Maybe so.
-
NICHOLAS
- So Gregory was getting all this publicity, and then all of a sudden they
wanted him to do other shows. Then along came Sophisticated Ladies. Then he had trouble in that show,
too.
-
WHITE
- Oh, really? For rehearsals?
-
NICHOLAS
- With rehearsals, with— Oh, jeepers, I can't think of the choreographer's
name. Sophisticated Ladies, they opened in
New York, but naturally they go out to Philadelphia or Hartford,
Connecticut, and different places as a dress rehearsal before they reach
Broadway. Gregory and the choreographer were always arguing. The
choreographer—and I think he was like a producer, too—fired him, I mean
fired Gregory Hines.
-
WHITE
- Oh, really? From Sophisticated Ladies?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. Fired him while they were on the road. I think it was in Hartford,
Connecticut. Fired him. "No, I don't like you. Get out of here." And the
whole company says, "Wait a minute. If Gregory goes, we go." The whole
company said, "We're leaving if Gregory has to leave." And so the
producer says, "Come back, Gregory." Yeah, did you hear that? Yeah, he
said, "Come back, Gregory. You've got to stay in the show because you're
killing me. I put all this money in this show."
-
WHITE
- Then they probably doubled his salary at that point.
-
NICHOLAS
- So the choreographer who did the show was all done now. He said, "I'm
leaving."
-
WHITE
- Oh, no.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, he was leaving. So they got Henry LeTang to come in and finish the
show.
-
WHITE
- Oh, really?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. You didn't know that? Yeah. And that's what really started Gregory
tap-dancing again. And not only that, they wanted him for motion
pictures, as an actor.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- He was such a big hit in New York and then the show came out here to Los
Angeles, at the Shubert Theatre. A big success, with Paula Kelly and
Hinton Battle. Remember— Hinton Battle, he won a Tony [Antoinette Perry
Award] in the show Sophisticated Ladies.
And I think Gregory was nominated too, but he didn't get it, they didn't
give it to him. So that was good publicity for Hinton Battle, and the
show was a big success. I was there opening night and I went there with
Henry LeTang. We were on television and everything the first night of
the show. It was a big hit. And then they had a reception right after
that with all the cast and we went over to the Beverly Hills Hotel and
everybody was waiting for us there. I remember— I remember this so well.
Oh, thank you, sweetheart [to his wife Catherine Hopkins Nicholas as she
hands him a glass]. Yeah, I need that. Best drink in the world. The best
drink in the world—water. I bet you thought I was going to say something
else. [laughs] I was there in the lobby talking to the people from the
cast of Sophisticated Ladies. As I was
talking, I turned my head and looked, and I saw this guy way over in the
corner there. And it was Fosse, yeah, Bob Fosse. He directed this film
Cabaret. He won an Oscar [Academy
Award] for best director. Now I saw him there and I said, "Hey, come
here." So I met him half way. Right away he started talking to me. He
said, "Oh, let me tell you something." I said, "Yes, what is it?" He
said, "When I was living in Chicago I used to go to this Chicago theater
to see the Nicholas Brothers, who were headlining there. At that time
you were doing eight shows every day. I stayed there for the eight shows
to see you and your brother perform. Because of the Nicholas Brothers
and Fred Astaire, that's why I got into show business." And I said,
"Thank you. That's a great compliment." And he started praising the
Nicholas Brothers. I said, "Wait a minute. Let me tell you something.
You have done some wonderful things. You are a great choreographer.
You've become a great director. You won the Oscar for best director for
Cabaret. You won the Tony Award for
[Pippin]. You won the Emmy Award for
the show that you did with Liza Minnelli [Liza
with a Z]." I said, "You won the Tony Award. You won the
Emmy Award. You won all of these awards, and every time I see these
awards you're running up the steps to go get your award—for the Oscar,
you run up again for the Emmy, you run up again for the Tony. It looks
like a rerun— You're going up. Every time I see an award show, there you
are going up the stairs accepting these awards. Listen, that's so
wonderful. That's great." And he says, "Well, it's because of you and
Fred Astaire. That's the reason why I'm in show business." I said,
"Well, you've done some wonderful things. I want to congratulate you."
That's what happened when I was there to see Sophisticated Ladies with Gregory Hines and the rest of the
cast. It was so surprising to see Bob Fosse there. They invited me over
to the house of one of the cast members. I had my 16mm [millimeter]
films of the Nicholas Brothers, and they had a projector for 16mm film.
They put on the Nicholas Brothers. Now they were showing the Nicholas
Brothers doing the first one, which was Down
Argentine Way, and as it was going on there was no sound. I
said, "What's the matter?" Paula Kelly, she arranged this whole thing.
And I said, "Paula, no sound." So they're trying to get the sound
together. And I said, "That's all right. Just let it go." Then I
started— When my brother starts singing, I sang with it. I said, "Here's
the sound." And I'm going with how the music was arranged. I said, "You
don't need the sound. I'll be the sound." Oh, they had a ball. In the
routine I jump over the handkerchief frontwards and backward. And all
the dancers said, "Ah! Rewind that. We want to see that again."
1.16. TAPE NUMBER: VIII, SIDE TWO
JUNE 15, 2000
-
NICHOLAS
- We were at this apartment. I think it was Paula Kelley's apartment,
because she arranged everything where all the cast would be there and
they had me there like a special guest. And I brought my film clips and
they were showing all these different films. The first one was Down Argentine Way, where my brother and I
were singing in Spanish. And there was no sound. I said, "What's going
on?" They're trying to get the sound to come on, but they couldn't do
it. I said, "That's all right. I'll do the sound." So I would do the way
my brother was, singing in Spanish and the little thing where we'd go
[does the clicking vocalism from the number] like that. And then we were
going through these routines. There's a part in the film where I take my
handkerchief out of my pocket. I jump over the handkerchief in the split
frontwards, then jump over the handkerchief backwards in the split, and
I'm down and I'm out like a Chinese split. And I'm going like this,
right? And going right to the camera. All of those dancers said, "Oh,
wow. Rewind that. We want to see that again. Just that part."
-
WHITE
- Wow. That was a terrific experience.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yeah. We had so much fun. And then they showed other clips of my
brother and me and so I did the sound for those movies, too. A silent
movie with Fayard Nicholas's sound.
-
WHITE
- You were the sound director. Well, let's see now. So from that point, I
understand that in 1987 you danced with Chuck Green and Jimmy "Slyde"
Godbolt at the Kennedy Center Honors and everybody was really thrilled
to see you dance after you had had your two hip replacements. Do you
recall?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes. That's when President [Ronald W.] Reagan was president, and we
were there with President Reagan and the first lady, Mrs. [Nancy]
Reagan, and we were paying a tribute to Sammy Davis, Jr. And there we
were with Jimmy Slyde and Chuck Green, Sandman Sims, and I think that
was it. My brother and me, there we were and we opened up with singing
"Chattanooga Choo Choo." My brother and I were doing this. And we were
looking up there at Sammy Davis, up there in the balcony seat with the
President and the first lady, and we were doing the "Chattanooga [Choo
Choo" number], and Sammy would stand up and go like this: [makes
high-pitched sound]. He gets excited when it's something he likes. He
goes to shaking like this. He stands up and lets everybody see him.
Walter Cronkite, he introduced us. He said, "Now we're going to talk
about dance. Who could be the ones who represent dance, tap dancing?
It's the Nicholas Brothers." Then he brought us on out, and we sang this
song "Chattanooga Choo Choo" and then we brought out everybody. We said,
"Sammy, this is for you. We've got all these wonderful dancers that you
know. And we're going to bring them out." And then I said, "Come on out
here, Jimmy Slyde." And Jimmy would slide out. And I said, "Okay, Chuck
Green, bring it on out here." And he brings it on out. "Okay, Sandman,
the man that dances on sand, come on out here, fellah." They would do
just a little dance before they would really make their entrance, and
each one of them did a solo. Each one. My brother was the last one. I
didn't because I was still recuperating.
-
WHITE
- Sure.
-
NICHOLAS
- I could dance, but I couldn't get out there and really do a real good
solo.
-
WHITE
- Right, this was just two years after your last surgery.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, right. So I just let all the guys do their thing. It was like
this. Jimmy Slyde would do his thing. We had to raise the floor, a
special floor to tap-dance on, because they sound better with this
special floor they had for us. They even had microphones strapped around
our legs.
-
WHITE
- Okay. To illuminate the sound even more.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, so the sound would come over. So they wanted to put it around me.
I said, "You don't need it around me because I'm not going to tap. No,
I'll go through the motions." And then Jimmy Slyde, he would slide over—
I'd be standing and he'd slide over here, and then he'd slide so close
to me and I'd jump. That got a laugh, because I'm getting out of their
way. [mutual laughter] My brother was the last one to do it. And then my
brother, for the finish of his routine he did a long sliding split over
to where I was. When he was there, and I could see him making the
preparations, I said, "Come on over here, fellah." And he came.
[demonstrates the routine they do together] And then all of us got
together to do this last thing, the finale of us tap-dancing. We did the
BS [bullshit] chorus.
-
WHITE
- Oh, right. I know about the BS chorus.
-
NICHOLAS
- All of us did the BS chorus. And as we went we did a thing where we went
off, like this. [demonstrates grand finale] Then we came back and said,
"That was for you, Sammy." And applause. We said, "See you later." And
then we danced off.
-
WHITE
- Oh, what a terrific event.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, that was great. That was the first time that we performed for the
Kennedy Center Honors.
-
WHITE
- Exactly, that's what I understand. It was in '87. Well, this was quite a
busy time for you. A couple of years later you won the Tony Award for
choreography for Black and Blue.
-
NICHOLAS
- That's true, yes, in 1989, yeah.
-
WHITE
- How was that experience for you?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, it was great. Oh, I had a great time, being one of the
choreographers. There were four of us. There was Henry LeTang, Cholly
Atkins, Frankie Manning. Cholly Atkins, he would do the soft-shoe. He
would teach all of the dancers. And Frankie Manning, the lindy hop and
the swing. Let me see, Henry LeTang would teach tapping with all the
kids, the different styles they would do. I was teaching them how to use
their hands, and style and class. That's what I was teaching. I remember
the opening night I'm sitting there in the theater when these three guys
came on stage to do this number, called "I Want a Big Butter and Egg
Man," and Kerry Smith was singing it. And as they were coming on, some
people in the back of me leaned over and tapped me and said, "I know you
did this choreography, Fayard." I said, "How do you know?" They said,
"Oh, they're moving their hands."
-
WHITE
- That's your trademark.
-
NICHOLAS
- That was the trademark, see? So I had them doing that. And I was also
teaching Savion Glover, who is the great tap dancer of today—and he's so
young. And with him and Diane Walker— Have you heard of her?
-
WHITE
- Yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- She was my assistant.
-
WHITE
- Oh, was she?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, she was my assistant. I asked that she would be because lots of
times I'd do a step and I'd say, "I'm going to sit down and rest a
little bit. Go ahead, Diane, you saw what I did. You show it to them."
Then when I wanted to do another step I'd get up and start showing and
have Diane look at it, too. They all look at it. "You got it? Okay, well
let me sit down." So that's how she helped me.
-
WHITE
- Right. That's a true master— You can delegate.
-
NICHOLAS
- So I won a Tony Award for one of the best choreographers. It was so
funny. I had so much fun. Oh, just before we went on to watch the show
as it was progressing— It was live and we were sitting in our seats as
they were saying the different shows of different choreographers and all
that. Now just before that happened we were in a dressing room there at
the theater. I said, "Now, if we should win, I know all of you will want
to say that you thank everybody, thank the academy, thank the audience.
Now who's going to make this speech?" They said, "Well, we won't flip a
coin to say who will do it. We'll let the one who's the oldest.
Whoever's the oldest, let him make the speech." And that's one time that
I was the youngest. [laughs]
-
WHITE
- Oh, you were? Oh, okay. Who was the oldest?
-
NICHOLAS
- Cholly Atkins.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- So we said, "Okay." So Cholly, he had that purpose. After he made the
speech and we were there accepting the award— We didn't know we were
going to win, but we said, "If we do, who's going to make it?" So Cholly
Atkins made it. After the show was over, Cholly wasn't satisfied. I
said, "What's the matter? Your speech was nice. It was nice, Cholly." He
said, "Yeah, but I was bending over. And I know that mike [microphone]
will pick up my voice. I don't have to bend over." You've seen that on a
lot of shows. They're bending over. They don't have to bend over the
mike, that mike will pick up their voice. Just stand up straight and
just talk. But they think they've got to do like this because they're so
used to having a hand mike that's right in their face.
-
WHITE
- Right, exactly.
-
NICHOLAS
- So they think they've got to stoop. I've seen some when the mike is way
low and they do like this, turn their heads and talk into it, and then
some of them will say, "I wish they'd make these microphones higher."
They don't know that the voices are picking up.
-
WHITE
- Right. So he was a little unsatisfied because—
-
NICHOLAS
- He was a little unsatisfied because he was bending down. He didn't bend
down too much, but he did like that and he shouldn't have. Just stand up
straight and just talk—the microphone will pick his voice up.
-
WHITE
- So this was a nice closure to the decade for you, when you got your Tony
Award in 1989.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, of the eighties, yeah.
-
WHITE
- So now, in the nineties this interest in tap is continuing to build
momentum. For the last ten years of your life I know that you have been
called upon so many times to discuss your life history—for instance, the
book by Rusty Frank, Tap! The Greatest Tap Dance
Stars and their Stories, 1900-1955 [New York: William
Morrow, 1990]. And actually, Gregory Hines did the foreword for that
book.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah.
-
WHITE
- It's very interesting.
-
NICHOLAS
- Very interesting.
-
WHITE
- And it really gave me some insight—and I'm sure, of course, a lot of
people that have read it insight—about your background and a lot of the
dancers that were performing at the same time as you.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes, yes, yes.
-
WHITE
- Actually, it was interesting because Rusty Frank said at some point in
an interview that you had told her how to "pull the trenches." Is that
true?
-
NICHOLAS
- I told Rusty Frank how to do it, yes.
-
WHITE
- What exactly is "pull the trenches"?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, the BS chorus that every dancer knows, like they know the shim
sham shimmy. All dancers know, and they will get on stage and they don't
even have to rehearse, because they know these two dances, shim sham
shimmy and the BS chorus. And we just say, "Let's do the shim sham
shimmy." And the orchestra will strike up and we just go right into it—
They don't have to rehearse; they all know it. We all know the BS
chorus, as well. Now, in the BS chorus there are four steps that we do.
First we start off with the time step. The second step is the crossover
step that we do. The third step is a wing. You kick up your leg and the
right leg makes that tap. And then the fourth step is like the finale of
the BS chorus. We do "over the top." Now we're going for the trenches—we
go like that. [demonstrates and finishes up with the "shave and a
haircut" beat] Now, that's the BS chorus with the trenches, what we call
the trenches.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay. That was interesting. When I read that I thought, "I'd like to
get some clarification on exactly what that is."
-
NICHOLAS
- Uh-huh, it's a slide thing like they do.
-
WHITE
- Sure. Well, I'm sure that that book did quite well. Subsequent to that,
in 1991, you and your brother actually received the Kennedy Center
Honors yourself. I understand that, of course, the Kennedy Center Honors
were created "to provide national recognition to individuals who
throughout their lifetime had made significant contributions to American
culture through the performing arts." So at this point in time they
decided to honor the Nicholas Brothers.
-
NICHOLAS
- Honor the Nicholas Brothers. When I got this letter from George Stevens,
Jr. I looked at it and said, "Wait a minute. Is this right?" So I called
him.
-
WHITE
- Did you really?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, I called him. I said, "Wait a minute. Didn't you make a mistake?"
He said, "No, that's true. You will be honored this year." I said, "My,
that's a great compliment. It's a great honor that you're going to honor
the Nicholas Brothers." He said, "Yes, it's true. Fayard, at the moment
when we all were going to vote for who should be honored this year—" And
naturally, it's for classical music, it's for dance, it's for motion
pictures and television, it's for theater, and it's for popular music.
-
WHITE
- I see.
-
NICHOLAS
- That's the five, yeah. And he said, "When we were deciding who it was
going to be, I just mentioned to everybody, 'Well, what about us
honoring the Nicholas Brothers?'" He said, "All of them said, 'Yes!'"
They weren't thinking about the Nicholas Brothers, but when he mentioned
it, "Yes, we shall honor the Nicholas Brothers."
-
WHITE
- It's a unanimous decision.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah,a unanimous decision. They didn't have to say, "Well, maybe this
one or this one." No— "The Nicholas Brothers, right. For dance, yes."
-
WHITE
- Wow, it was a slam dunk.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, right. They didn't have to write down others. Yeah, so this year
it's going to be the Nicholas Brothers. When I called him I said, "It's
true?" He said, "Yes, it's true." Now, they took care of everything— The
airfare, first class. They took care of the hotel, of a special
limousine to take us to wherever we wanted to go and to all of the
events, like, they picked us up at the airport with a chauffeur and took
us to the hotel. We registered there and then that same day, then we
went to the Kennedy Center, and that's when the TV people were there
interviewing us and they had a luncheon there. The past honorees were
there and the present ones, so they introduced all of them. We had a
nice luncheon and then we went back to the hotel and rested. Then that
evening we went to the state department and that's when we received our
award. Many celebrities speak for each honoree. Jack Lemmon spoke for us
and he did a magnificent job. Wow, I wish I could get a recording of
what he said about us. He was great. Naturally, there were those who
spoke for Gregory Peck and Robert Shaw and Adolf Green and Betty Comden
and the country and western singer Roy Acuff. This particular year there
were seven. See? Because Adolf Green and Betty Comden, they're a team.
Fayard Nicholas and Harold Nicholas, they're a team. It's always five,
but this particular year it was seven that were being honored.
-
WHITE
- I understand you guys got a standing ovation.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. After that Gregory Hines came out and started talking
about the Nicholas Brothers. He said, "Ah, the Nicholas Brothers. Ah.
Oh, we love you." This is one of the things Gregory said— He said when
he and his brother were younger and they were doing their act together,
he said that everybody said that they would be the next Nicholas
Brothers. He said, "I never saw the Nicholas Brothers. I thought my
brother and I were pretty good, but we never saw the Nicholas Brothers
and we were thinking, 'Wow, everybody's saying how great they are.'" So
he said, "I never saw them. And when I saw the Nicholas Brothers I said
to myself, 'Nobody's going to be like the Nicholas Brothers.'" He said,
"As for my brother and me, nobody's going to be like the Nicholas
Brothers." [laughs] And he went on and said more nice things about us,
and then he said, "Now watch the screen." And that's when they showed
the film clips. They showed all the film clips and they ended with
Stormy Weather and coming down those
stairs.
-
WHITE
- Oh, of course.
-
NICHOLAS
- And then after it was over we stood up and the whole audience just stood
up, just praising us. And then I hugged my brother and then I turned
around to shake hands with the first lady, Mrs. [Barbara P.] Bush. She
pulled me over and kissed me. My, I didn't expect that.
-
WHITE
- Oh, really?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, no. And it was on TV. Did you see it?
-
WHITE
- Yes, I saw the tape.
-
NICHOLAS
- You did see it. And then I shook hands with the president [George H. W.
Bush]. And my wife was there, Barbara was right in the back of me. And
my brother's wife was there with him, Rigmor [Newman Nicholas]. It was a
great night. It was wonderful. Right after that we had dinner there at
the Kennedy Center. The Count Basie band was there, directed by Joe
Williams, who was singing all these songs, like "Every Day I Have the
Blues." So we had this wonderful dinner, and then we went back to the
hotel and rested. Then sometimes [during the annual festivities], if we
weren't really sleepy, we'd go out to maybe a nightclub.
-
WHITE
- Okay. What a great experience. Sounds wonderful.
-
WHITE
- Oh, yes. It was wonderful.
-
WHITE
- Yeah, and at that time you were obviously feeling quite healthy. There
was an article in 1991 in the Warner Center
News * in which you indicated that the doctor says you have the
heart and the blood pressure of a twenty-one-year-old.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes. Yeah.
-
WHITE
- In 1991. So obviously you were feeling real good. Your recovery was
going fine.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, I was feeling good, then. Oh, I was feeling good. Every time I
would see a doctor and be examined, that's what they would always tell
me. "You have the heartbeat of a man twenty years old."
-
WHITE
- My goodness, that's quite a compliment.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. "You have the blood pressure of a man twenty years old."
-
WHITE
- Oh, my goodness.
-
NICHOLAS
- I said, "Well!"
-
WHITE
- So you must only be about thirty-one now. [mutual laughter] The
accolades continued. In 1992 I understand you guys did We Sing, We Dance: The Nicholas Brothers. You
did that for PBS that following year.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes. We Sing, We Dance, now let me
tell you something about that. Now my brother's wife, Rigmor Newman, was
one of the producers of this We Sing, We
Dance. They went to all the different networks to get them to
put this thing on the air, and they were given this thing about "we'll
call you"—one of those things. Naturally, they never called. So they
said, "Well, let's go to England. See what they say." They went to
England and presented the idea, what they wanted to do. And they said,
"Yes." Right Away. That's it. "We'll do this documentary on the Nicholas
Brothers." Naturally, it showed in England first and got awards. Then
they showed it here, and here it got an award from— Let me see, what
award was that? Oh, I can't remember it. Oh my goodness, and I think it
was on A&E [Arts and Entertainment network].
-
WHITE
- PBS [Public Broadcasting System]. It was on PBS.
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, you'll find out about that. We received the award. I remember we
went down to the— One of the producers was here from England, came here
because we were nominated in that category of documentaries. And so I'm
sitting there with him. It was black tie. And they named all the
different shows. Our show was the We Sing, We
Dance: The Nicholas Brothers. And I'm listening. All of a
sudden this lady, who is in competition, said, "Nicholas Brothers." And
I said to the guy, the producer, "Did I hear right? Did she say
'Nicholas Brothers'?" He said, "Yeah, let's get on up there and get the
award. So I get up there and this tall, beautiful girl presented us with
the award and I said, "Oh, my goodness. Isn't she lovely? Isn't she
something?" I said, "I know what you're thinking. You're thinking she's
too tall for me, aren't you? Ha? Right? But that's all right. I'll make
two trips." [mutual laughter] And so I got a big laugh. So now I do that
with Catherine.
-
WHITE
- Right, exactly. Oh, that's a nice tribute to you and your brother.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, so just think— The networks here in America didn't want to know. I
had to go to England. And then when I come here, we win for best
documentary.
-
WHITE
- Isn't that interesting? It happens like that often.
-
NICHOLAS
- Isn't that crazy? And we went to Canada. We went up there and they gave
us the award for best [documentary], yeah.
-
WHITE
- Oh, my goodness.
-
NICHOLAS
- Then we found out that in Switzerland they gave the best [documentary]
award to this documentary, We Sing, We Dance: The
Nicholas Brothers. I guess after that, then, A&E—
-
WHITE
- They jumped on the bandwagon.
-
NICHOLAS
- They jumped on the bandwagon and said, let's do [an A&E Biography episode on] the
Nicholas Brothers and call it [The Nicholas
Brothers:] Flying High.
-
WHITE
- Right. They tried to take all the credit. Now, a couple of years later
then you guys got your star on the Hollywood [Boulevard] Walk of Fame.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, we got a star in—let me see—it was 1994. It's on Hollywood
Boulevard between La Brea [Avenue] and Sycamore [Avenue], yeah.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- It's on the same side of the street as [Mann's] Chinese Theater.
-
WHITE
- On the north side.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. On the other side is the Roosevelt Hotel. That's where they had
the first Academy [of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences] Awards. The
silent movie, [nominated for] Best Picture, was called Seventh Heaven, starring Janet Gaynor, and
she won for best actress.
-
WHITE
- Right. Janet Gaynor, right.
-
NICHOLAS
- Uh-huh, a silent movie. And the best movie was Wings, starring Clara Bow and Buddy Rogers. That was the
silent movie [that won Best Picture]. In 1927.
-
WHITE
- Definitely a very historic period. The hotel has just been really
remodeled. I saw your star not that long ago. I went down there to take
a look at it.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, you saw the star? You walked down there? There it is.
-
WHITE
- That must have been very exciting for you and your brother to receive
that.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yeah. Let me tell you this— We should have had that star a long time
ago.
-
WHITE
- You're absolutely right.
-
NICHOLAS
- A long time ago. See, they charge like $4000 to give us a star. Now at
the beginning of having a star on the boulevard, nobody had to pay.
-
WHITE
- Oh.
-
NICHOLAS
- No, nobody had to pay at the beginning. I guess they thought it was a
little too expensive, so they said, "You've got to have a sponsor [and]
you'll pay for it yourself." So that's when it happened. And it's like
$4000. So you get a sponsor [and] pay for it yourself. Now in this year,
1994, Johnny Grant called us and said, "We want to honor you with a star
on Hollywood Boulevard on the Walk of Fame." So we said, "Okay." That
year, they honored thirty celebrities. And nobody paid.
-
WHITE
- That's peculiar.
-
NICHOLAS
- That is, yeah. Sophia Loren, she was there; she got honored at the same
time. I talked to Johnny Grant and I said, "Hey, this is wonderful.
We've been wanting this star for so many years, [during] that time that
we would have had to pay for it. I remember when we worked with MGM
[Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer] and I was talking to Jack Haley, Jr. He said,
'Fellahs, you've got to have a star. MGM will finance you.' But MGM was
having trouble during those days and then the studio just closed down,
so they couldn't finance us." I said, "Johnny that's wonderful that
everybody's getting a star today and nobody's paying. Next year, it will
be the same way, nobody will pay?" He said, "Oh, yeah. Next year,
everybody pays." It was just this year that they decided that everybody
would get their star. So we said, "Well, we waited a long time, but this
is the best time. We don't have to pay that $4000."
-
WHITE
- That's the perfect time. Oh, my goodness, that's a funny story. So you
guys continued to receive awards, the Gypsy Award, the Dance Magazine Award in '94 and '95. Then in
1997 I understand that you had some more health challenges, in that you
actually had a stroke in 1997, actually on the same date as the bombing
of Pearl Harbor, December the seventh. Is that correct?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, that's true. That was a bad experience in Pearl Harbor and my bad
experience with me having this stroke.
-
WHITE
- Right. Do you recall feeling under a lot of pressure or anything like
that? Was your life very full at that point in time, before the stroke?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, I was feeling good. That year, 1997, they were honoring the present
honorees and past honorees [at the Kennedy Center Honors]. So they had
all of us to go on stage. And there they were, and Walter Cronkite was
calling everyone out. Like say, "Gregory Peck," he'd come out. Sidney
Poitier would come out. "Nicholas Brothers," we'd walk out. And at this
time I was feeling so good I just put my cane down. I walked out there
on stage without the cane. But my brother had his cane. So I walked out
first and walked slow and he followed me with his cane, and there, the
Nicholas Brothers were coming up. Right after that, everybody was all on
stage. The president [William J. Clinton] was coming out. He was going
to make his little speech. And he passed right by me, and he saw me and
he shook my hand. And then the first lady [Hillary Rodham Clinton] came,
and she saw me and she grabbed me and hugged and kissed me. Now you
didn't see that on television because the camera was following the
president. He was going over there in the middle of the stage to make
his speech. And here I was with the first lady. Well, everybody in the
theater saw it, that she hugged and kissed me. We became very good
friends. After it was all over we went to have dinner there at the
Kennedy Center. And we're there and we're listening to the Count Basie
band, Joe Williams is singing, and all of a sudden my wife says, "I'm
tired. Let's go back to the hotel." I said, "Okay, all right. That would
be fine." So we went and we got our coats. The chauffeur was waiting
outside in the limousine, and so we get into the limousine and we said,
"Take us to the hotel." So he starts driving and all of a sudden
something happens to me. My right arm was like this, it was like lead. I
couldn't raise it. My wife saw what was happening and she said, "Take
him to the hospital." So they took me to this hospital, and they had me
on this gurney and I was going to the room where I was going to be, and
I was looking up at the ceiling and I was trying to talk, and I was
going— [makes sounds of garbled speech] I couldn't say anything. I was
thinking. I had all my faculties. I knew where I was. I was trying to
speak, but it wouldn't come out. I couldn't say what I was thinking. So
I said, "Oh, the hell with it. I'm going to sleep." I guess I was
sleeping about an hour. My wife called my brother and his wife. I woke
up and there they were. My wife, my brother, and my brother's wife. I
looked at my wife and said, "Hello Mamacita"—because she's Mamacita and
I'm Papacito. And I looked at my brother and I said, "Hello, Little Mo."
Now, see, he's Little Mo and I'm Big Mo. And then I looked at my
brother's wife and I said, "Hello, Sweden." Now, I call her Sweden
because she's from Sweden. I couldn't pronounce her name, Rigmor, so I
just called her Sweden. After I had learned her name, she said, "You
don't like me anymore? You don't call me Sweden anymore?" I said, "It's
Sweden from now on." I still call her Sweden, even though I know her
name now. I can pronounce it. So as I'm talking to them, then I
realized, "Hey, I got my speech back. I'm talking." Then I started to
tell them what had happened. That I was trying to talk and I was going
[makes sounds of garbled speech]. And they laughed. I said, "But isn't
it wonderful? I can talk again." But this arm was still down like that.
I couldn't move it, I couldn't move my fingers. The doctor, Dr. Cox, he
came by the hospital. I was at the George Washington University
Hospital, and he came by to see me. He said, "Mr. Nicholas, the reason
why you had that stroke is because you had a tumor on your heart."
-
WHITE
- Right, that's what I understand.
-
NICHOLAS
- And he said, "I'll have to operate." So he cut me down here and spread
my rib cage, and he doctored on that and got it back in shape. Then I
was going through therapy and all of this, and still couldn't use this
arm. So one morning I could raise it, and then I started doing this.
[demonstrates] The doctors would come by and see me and they said, "How
are you doing, Mr. Nicholas?" I said, "Oh, I'm feeling much better
today. Yeah. I don't like the food, but I'm feeling great. Could my
friends bring me some food?" They said, "Sure, they can bring you food.
Yes, that would be fine." And I started to tell them, "Bring me some
Chinese food. Bring me some Italian food." I was going overboard. "Bring
me some nuts." Like those Hawaiian nuts, macadamia nuts. I said, "Bring
me those." And ice cream. I wanted everything. Oh gee, I just went— At
that time I only weighed— Let me see, what did I weigh then? At the
beginning, I was weighing like 110 [pounds]. But I went down. I went
down to 95.
-
WHITE
- Oh, my goodness.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yeah. I was real thin, but I was feeling good, though. I was feeling
real good. The doctors came in and said, "You look well." I said, "I
want to show you something." They said, "Yes." I said, "Look at this."
[wiggles his fingers] They said, "What?" They were so surprised when
they saw I could move my fingers. I was in that hospital three months,
at the George Washington University Hospital, recuperating. I was doing
well. I'd go walking, and they would put a belt around my waist and it
would be there to hold me, in case I would—
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay, to keep you steady.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. So I'm walking and they'd be right there to catch me if I did get
a little wobbly. I'd do that and I'd do the bicycle—I'd be peddling on
that. They had stairs where I could walk up and down. The little nurses
would bathe me. They said, "Maybe you can do it yourself." So I'd do my
face and do this arm. [mimes washing his right arm] But now I can't do
this arm because this hand couldn't work. So they'd have to do that. I
learned how to brush my teeth with my left hand, because I'm
right-handed.
-
WHITE
- You have to improvise a bit.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. And then when people would come to see me and they'd want an
autograph, I had to learn how to write with my left hand. And I tried to
imitate my right hand.
-
WHITE
- That must have been a little bit of a challenge.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, it was a challenge. So that's what was going on there. I was
getting ready to come back to Los Angeles.
-
WHITE
- Right. February, I believe, of 1998.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, yeah. My son was there with me and he was going to bring me back
to Los Angeles. And see, every day they would examine me, take x-rays,
and give me my medication, take my blood. All those things that they do
in hospitals—weigh me. That's when they found out that I went down to 95
pounds. Because I wasn't eating. I didn't like that food at all, so I'd
just eat little bits to survive.
-
WHITE
- Sure.
-
NICHOLAS
- And so they were looking at these x-rays. And I'm ready. I made the
reservation. I'm ready to come back to Los Angeles. And they said, "Mr.
Nicholas, we have to cancel your reservation." I said, "I'm ready to go.
My son's here. He's ready to take me back." He says, "No, you can't go
back right now." I said, "Why?" He said, "From your x-rays, we found out
you have a hole in your heart." I said, "Wait a minute."
-
WHITE
- Oh, boy.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, wow. I said, "Well, whatever you need to do, do it." So they
straightened that out. And Valentine's Day, February the 14th, I was
ready to come back. Now just before that, I called my wife, Barbara—
-
WHITE
- We're going go ahead and have to end this particular tape, okay?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, okay.
1.17. TAPE NUMBER: IX, SIDE ONE
JUNE 21, 2000
-
WHITE
- The last time we spoke you were getting ready to discuss a little bit
about when you were about to leave the hospital after your surgery and
you had contacted your wife, Barbara January.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. Barbara January Nicholas. [laughs]
-
WHITE
- Correct. Correct. Thank you for that.
-
NICHOLAS
- When I talked to her she sounded fine, real fine, so I thought she was
getting better with this illness that she had. And I said, "Oh, that's
great." I arrived here in Los Angeles on Valentine's Day, and I had
presents for her, cards that I wrote for her. I arrived at the hospital,
the Motion Picture and Television [Fund] Hospital, out there in Woodland
Hills, in the city of Los Angeles. I always put that in because some
people don't know.
-
WHITE
- This is true.
-
NICHOLAS
- They don't know that the San Fernando Valley is the city of Los Angeles,
so I educate them. [laughs] So I arrived there at the hospital and they
had me in a wheelchair and took me to J wing and had a room for me
there. And I'm there and they said to me, "Your wife is here." I said,
"What do you mean my wife is here?" "Yes, she's in a room here." I said,
"I just talked to her and she sounded so good. She didn't sound like she
was really ill." They said, "Oh, yes, she is. She's sitting in the room.
She's sleeping now." I said, "Well, don't wake her. Let her sleep. I'll
talk to her tomorrow." And then they said to me, "But she's not doing
well." I said, "Oh no. Don't tell me that." And so they took me to my
room and I slept until the next morning. Then I said to the nurse, "Is
my wife awake?" She said, "Yes, she is awake." I said, "Well, you can
wheel me over there." So I went over to her and she looked good, she
sounded good, yeah. Her family would come. All of her sisters would come
to see her. She had one sister from the Bay Area and one sister from San
Bernardino, and then another one from Philadelphia and one from out here
in Los Angeles. They would come and we'd see her and talk to her and
naturally she'd talk with us. We were just having a wonderful time. But
she was getting worse every day. Weaker. I didn't feel good at all,
because, really, I didn't know how sick she was, and she kept it to
herself. She didn't tell anybody.
-
WHITE
- She didn't want to worry you while you were recovering.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, I guess she didn't want to worry me while I was recovering,
because she was there in Washington, D.C. with me. And she said to me,
"Do you want me to stay with you?" I said, "No, sweetheart. You go on
back to Los Angeles. I'll be all right now. All these nurses, they'll
take good care of me. You go back and take care of your health. You go
on back." And she did. It was so wonderful. George Stevens, Jr., who
produces the TV show The Kennedy Center
Honors when you see it on television on CBS— He arranged where
we would have an apartment there while I was in the hospital, and she
stayed at this apartment. It was a two-bedroom apartment, with a living
room and a kitchen and two bathrooms. Oh, it was great. I never did get
a chance to go there. I was thinking about maybe I would go there and be
at this apartment with my wife, Barbara. And I never did get there,
because I was in this hospital for three months recuperating. And
Barbara would come by and see me. And one of her sisters would come—
June came by and June's daughter, Linda, whom I call my niece, would
come by, and she has a daughter, whom I also call my niece. Her name is—
Linda is June's daughter and Laurie is Linda's daughter. Laurie is a
ballet dancer. And so they'd come by and see me and make me feel good.
-
WHITE
- Sure.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes. And then I had a lot of friends who would come by. And the TV
people would come by.
-
WHITE
- And Barbara was still coming to the hospital at this point. She was
still staying at the apartment?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes, she was staying at that apartment. Oh, yeah. So I never got a
chance to stay there, but her sisters would stay there with her.
-
WHITE
- Sure. So then she decided to come on back to L.A.
-
NICHOLAS
- I told her to. She said, "Do you want me to stay here?" I said, "No, no.
Go on back home. Go on back home."
-
WHITE
- Right. So once you got here, you found out she was ill.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, when I found out [she was] in her room, there at the hospital. So
they were switching us to different rooms, and the rooms that they were
switching us to were better rooms. Yeah. And there she was, and she was
having a hard time eating so sometimes I would feed her. I said, "Come
on, sweetheart. Eat this. Eat this." Because she was getting weaker and
weaker.
-
WHITE
- What was her illness?
-
NICHOLAS
- Cancer, yeah. And she was a vegetarian. She was always eating fruits and
vegetables and just taking good care of herself. She had me on this
kick. Loved spinach. Oh, she was throwing that down my throat all the
time.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- And we ate fish—protein—and chicken, but not fried chicken.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. But she had this habit of smoking.
-
WHITE
- Oh.
-
NICHOLAS
- See, everything else was great, but she just had to smoke.
-
WHITE
- Did she have lung cancer?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah.
-
WHITE
- I see.
-
NICHOLAS
- And she tried not to, because she— When she'd want to smoke when we were
in our cottage out there, she would go out on the patio so she wouldn't
disturb me with all the smoke, because she knew I didn't like the smoke
in my face. So she'd go outside and smoke. And she tried— She cut down
on it, but she kept on. Kept on smoking. And that's the only bad habit
that she had. But everything else— She took good care of herself, took
good care of her body. Everything— But just had to have that damn
cigarette.
-
WHITE
- Yeah, that habit, it's awfully hard to break.
-
NICHOLAS
- But everything else she did was wonderful.
-
WHITE
- So her health continued to deteriorate.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, uh-huh. Then, when she decided not to smoke, it was too late. It
was there, it was too late for her. I would always go to her room at the
hospital and have dinner with her and all these things. That's when
Catherine [Hopkins Nicholas] would call me and she didn't know that both
of us were in the hospital. So she said, "We're going to celebrate Herb
Wills' birthday."
-
WHITE
- Whose?
-
NICHOLAS
- Herb [Herbert] Mills. One of the Mills Brothers.
-
WHITE
- Okay, Herb Mills.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, see that picture up there?
-
WHITE
- Yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- There they are. See the one in the middle, right up there? That's him.
-
WHITE
- Okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- It was his ninetieth birthday. She said, "Would you like to come?" I
said, "Yes." I wanted to get out of that hospital. She came and picked
me up and took me over to Thousand Oaks, over there with Herb and his
family. I didn't tell anybody I was going. It was so interesting.
Gregory Hines came by to see me. He heard that I was in the hospital,
but he didn't tell me he was coming by, so when he got there I was gone.
But he saw Barbara. He saw Barbara. And he wrote me a little note and he
said, "Barbara looks wonderful." So I was over there with Catherine and
Herb. We were celebrating his ninetieth birthday. After the party
Catherine took me back to the hospital, the Motion Picture hospital. And
when I arrived there, they said, "Where have you been? We were looking
for you. We wondered where you were." I think I didn't get back until
one o'clock in the morning.
-
WHITE
- Oh, my goodness.
-
NICHOLAS
- We were having such great fun. So Catherine said, "Tell me, what
happened—" They said, "You should have signed him out." She said, "Well,
I didn't know." And so they said, "Mr. Nicholas, next time let us know
when you're leaving. Miss, if you're coming to pick him up, you sign him
out."
-
WHITE
- Right, of course.
-
NICHOLAS
- Because they were afraid. They didn't know what had happened to me.
-
WHITE
- Sure, you probably frightened them.
-
NICHOLAS
- A little after that, my wife passed away. She passed away. We had the
funeral and a lot of her friends were there, show people. And Barbara's
family. And Catherine was there. All this happened. I had the stroke. I
lost my wife. And then I couldn't stay in the cottage anymore. They
moved me over to the lodge, where it was one room. A small room with a
single bed. I wanted to stay at the cottage, but they said, "No, I don't
think so. We don't think you can take care of yourself." And they were
right. I couldn't have taken care of myself. The maids would only come
there once a week, on a Friday.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- So now I'm there by myself. I've got to make up the bed. I had a kitchen
there. I could cook if I wanted to and all those different things. It
was a nice cottage; it was one of the new ones. We were lucky that we
could move into the new cottage. It had a living room, it had a bedroom,
a dining room, a kitchen, and the bathroom.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- It was good for two people.
-
WHITE
- And then they encouraged you to move over to the single.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, and they were right, that I should move over to the lodge, because
I'd be there all by myself and I wouldn't be able to—
-
WHITE
- Uh-huh, you'd get more support at the lodge.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, because the nurses were there. They could give me my medication.
-
WHITE
- More interaction with the other people at the center.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, and something in my room, if I couldn't manage, if I couldn't
button my shirt, I'd call them and they'd come by and do it for me.
-
WHITE
- Okay, sure.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, because if I was at my cottage, they're busy over at the lodge
with the other residents. And they can't come over there to help me, but
while I'm there, they can.
-
WHITE
- Sure. So I would imagine that you went through quite a mourning process,
getting adjusted from your own surgery and your wife's passing and the
move. It must have been a challenging period for you.
-
NICHOLAS
- Right. And Catherine was so wonderful, because she would always call me
and come and see me or take me out to dinner. She'd take me to— She was
wonderful.
-
WHITE
- Very supportive.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, very supportive. She took better care of me than the nurses.
-
WHITE
- That's great.
-
NICHOLAS
- And then— See, we'd been friends since 1971, and so we always kept in
touch. I did shows with her and the Mills Brothers. She was a part of
the act. And so I would do that. We always kept in touch. Then I asked
if she would like to go to Washington, D.C. with me [for the annual
Kennedy Center Honors], which was in 1998, and she said, "Yes." So we
went there and had a wonderful time. She met the president [William J.
Clinton] and the first lady [Hillary Rodham Clinton]. We went to the
state department. We had a wonderful time. She met Shirley Temple and
Bill Cosby. I introduced her to everybody.
-
WHITE
- So you began to gradually move on with your life, to heal and move
forward. I know that back in April of 1998 you were still getting
tributes, like you guys [the Nicholas Brothers, Fayard Nicholas and
Harold Nicholas] got the tribute at Carnegie Hall with, once again,
Gregory Hines and Jimmy "Slyde" Godbolt.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, but Gregory Hines wasn't there.
-
WHITE
- Oh, he was not there, oh, okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- His brother was— Maurice Hines.
-
WHITE
- Maurice Hines.
-
NICHOLAS
- Bobby Short was there, Savion Glover, Bill Cosby, Lena Horne—
-
WHITE
- It was quite an extravaganza.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh yeah. Ben Vereen. To honor us. The place was a sell out. They wanted
to see the Nicholas Brothers being honored. It was great. Oh yeah, Bill
Cosby was the master of ceremonies. And naturally, they showed film
clips. Those things.
-
WHITE
- Another terrific experience.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, and so— Let me see, Bill Cosby, he introduced us and brought us
out on stage and— Oh, no, here's the way it was. They showed the film
clips. The last one was Stormy Weather,
coming down those stairs, jumping over each other's heads. And then we
just walked out on stage. They didn't have to announce us, because they
saw the film clips. We walked out and then I went to the microphone and
started talking. Something I always say: "Thank you very much, ladies
and gentlemen. We're happy that you liked that film clip. But if you
think we're going to do on this stage what you saw us doing in the
movie, forget it." [White laughs]
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- And then my brother says, "Go on, do a split for them." I say, "Wait a
minute, man. No way." He says, "Yes, you can." And he says to the
audience, "Ladies and gentlemen, you want to see him do a split?" And
they say, "Yes." I say, "Wait a minute. I cannot do that anymore. And to
tell you the truth, I don't want to do that anymore." Then my brother
says, "Why?" And I say, "It hurts." Right then Bill Cosby walked on
stage. He said, "Fellahs, there's something I want to do. We have a
table for you over here. And we're going to imagine that you're in the
Cotton Club. Just walk over there." He walked over with us. And we both
had canes; my brother had his cane; I had my cane. We sat at the table
and it was all arranged, like they had a little lamp in the middle of
the table, the dishes and the silverware, the tablecloth and everything.
We were just imagining that we were at the Cotton Club. He said, "You
guys stay there. We're going to entertain you." Then everybody came out,
like Bobby Short came out and spoke. Ben Vereen spoke. Maybe some of
them sang a song for us. Maurice Hines came out and talked and sang a
song. Savion Glover came out and danced for us, and he came right up and
danced for us right at the table. He didn't look at the audience at all,
just looked at us, and he entertained us. So that was great. Each one
would come over and give us a hug and wish us all the best.
-
WHITE
- That was quite a memorable occasion.
-
NICHOLAS
- That was a great night.
-
WHITE
- Yes, it was. I've heard lots of wonderful things about it. Well, you
continued on, still busy as ever. Like you said, you went to Washington
at the end of 1998. And in 1999 you did the A&E Biography [episode], Flying High.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, The Nicholas Brothers: Flying High.
-
WHITE
- Exactly. And then I believe you went to Sweden for a tap dance festival
shortly after that.
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, yes. Yes, in 1999.
-
WHITE
- Exactly, you've been moving right along.
-
NICHOLAS
- It's wonderful. Always moving and receiving these awards from so many
different places. And I'm still active, even though I'm semi-retired.
-
WHITE
- Right, exactly.
-
NICHOLAS
- Not completely.
-
WHITE
- I understand now that your granddaughters have actually moved into this
arena and they're— I think you were quoted as saying that they're now
taking over, but now they're wearing skirts.
-
NICHOLAS
- The Nicholas Brothers in skirts, are my granddaughters. Nicole
[Nicholas], who is fourteen [years old]. Cathy [Nicholas], who is
twelve. They're great tap dancers. Oh, yes. I'm so proud of them.
-
WHITE
- You've passed the torch to them.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes. Well, I thought my two sons, Tony [Anthony Nicholas] and Paul
[Nicholas], would be the next Nicholas Brothers, but they gave it up.
They used to imitate me when they were younger. But they said, "Dad,
that's too hard."
-
WHITE
- It wasn't their cup of tea.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, so I have four grandchildren. Now Tony has my granddaughters,
Nicole and Cathy. And Paul has the two boys, Jerry [Nicholas] and Paul
[Nicholas]. I thought they would be the next Nicholas Brothers, since my
two sons— So I thought my grandsons would be the next Nicholas Brothers,
but they like sports. Yeah, they like sports. So my granddaughters are
the tap dancers of the family.
-
WHITE
- Oh, that's great. It only skipped one generation. But it's certainly
nice to be able to sort of perform vicariously through your
granddaughters now. And I've seen them and have spoken with them and I
know how incredibly talented they are.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, I like that videotape that you made of them with the Paul Kennedy
kids [the dance students of Paul Kennedy and Arlene Kennedy].
-
WHITE
- Exactly, yeah.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, Tony showed it to me. Yeah, that was good. While I was there
watching, Cathy said—Nicole wasn't there—"This is the best video of the
Kennedy kids that I have ever been in."
-
WHITE
- Oh, my goodness, that's terrific.
-
NICHOLAS
- And it looked that way, too. They were really having fun and they were
dancing the best I've ever seen them.
-
WHITE
- Yes, wasn't it wonderful?
-
NICHOLAS
- And Cathy said the same thing, yes. Tony is going to make a copy of
that.
-
WHITE
- Oh, good, good. Yeah, that's great. It's so nice to see them dance.
You've made so many contributions in your life, and the latest tribute
to you is the book by Constance Valis Hill, Brotherhood in Rhythm: The Jazz Tap Dancing of the Nicholas
Brothers [New York: Oxford University Press, 2000].
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, right.
-
WHITE
- Once again, a sort of retrospective of your life, you know, making sure
that future generations have a real sense of who you are, who your
brother is, and contributions that you've made to this art form.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, and Constance, she did a good job writing this book.
-
WHITE
- Yes, she did.
-
NICHOLAS
- She knows more about me than I do. The way she expresses herself in
talking about the way we perform— She starts right at the beginning [and
goes] to the end of our performance, right? Like Down Argentine Way— She starts right in the beginning, when
my brother is singing this song "Argentina" in Spanish. I'm playing the
maracas. From that right to the very end. But she has a gift for words.
-
WHITE
- She certainly does.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, and so that's why I say she can say it better than I can.
-
WHITE
- Absolutely.
-
NICHOLAS
- Because she has this gift for words.
-
WHITE
- Sure, a wordsmith.
-
NICHOLAS
- I can say the same thing, but it's not as good as she says it.
-
WHITE
- Right, she has a poetic style of communicating.
-
NICHOLAS
- And she's a dancer, too.
-
WHITE
- Right, I understand that.
-
NICHOLAS
- See, so she understands. And she's been writing this book— Let me see,
five years she's been writing.
-
WHITE
- Oh, my goodness, so she's done extensive research.
-
NICHOLAS
- She did a lot of research. She would call me on the telephone and ask me
different questions and I would answer the best way that I can. And
whenever I was in Manhattan, she'd call me and find out the hotel where
I was staying. She would come over and have lunch with me and we would
start talking. And it turned out good, it turned out good.
-
WHITE
- Good experience.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, very good experience.
-
WHITE
- Well, tell me, so what are your future plans?
-
NICHOLAS
- Oh, right now we are getting ready to go to Detroit. My granddaughters
will be going, my son will be going, I think his wife is going—Vanita
[Nicholas]. My wife, Catherine Hopkins Nicholas, is going with me, too.
And Catherine might perform with me.
-
WHITE
- Oh, terrific. My goodness, that's terrific. It should be very exciting.
-
NICHOLAS
- So we're leaving on the twenty-second of this month, June, 2000. We'll
be there from the twenty-second till the twenty-fifth. And right after
that we come back here, on the twenty-sixth. On the twenty-seventh I'll
finish this motion picture that I'm doing, called Night at the Golden Eagle.
-
WHITE
- Okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- It's about an old hotel, yeah. And my part in the movie is— I'm playing
Mr. Maynard. And Mr. Maynard is half of the team called the Maynard
Brothers. I'm staying in this old hotel, the Golden Eagle Hotel, and I
have my room there, that I've been living in for a long time. I'm eighty
years old and I have pictures on the wall of entertainers and all my
friends. I have a record player, and I just play classical music and
operas. And I have a little dog. His name is Truman, and I fix food for
him and for me. I give him half and I eat the other half. So that's my
room. I'll look out the window and I will see people passing by. I see
prostitutes and I see dope pushers, and I'm looking and I just shake my
head. It's like "What is this world coming to?" when I see this. I have
an old suit that I've been wearing for years, but I always wear a tie. I
have a three-piece suit: trousers, the vest, and the jacket. And it's an
old dirty suit. [mutual laughter] And I have a little hat that I wear.
Now everybody else, they're in sports shirts and jeans and sneakers, or
whatever they wear. But I'm always with my tie.
-
WHITE
- Dapper.
-
NICHOLAS
- I'm dapper, even though the suit is old.
-
WHITE
- Okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- That's my part in the film. I have a friend whose name is Silvester and
I'll come down the stairs with my little dog. I have him on a leash, and
I see my friend sitting there in the lobby of the hotel. And I go and
say, "Hello, fellah, how are you doing?" And he says, "All right. Sit
down." I'll have my little dog right beside me, and we start talking.
The desk clerk at the hotel says, "Hey, Mr. Maynard—" I don't think he
called me Mr. Maynard. He'd just say, "Hey, Maynard," or something like
that. "Get that dog out of here. He's bringing fleas with him." I just
look at him and say, "Aah." And then my friend says, "Listen, you don't
know who this is, do you? Listen, this is Mr. Maynard of the tap dancing
team the Maynard Brothers. You don't talk to him like that. He's been
around a long time. He's famous." And then the guy says, "I've never
heard of him." [laughs] And he says, "Oh, you've never heard of him,
huh? All right. Mr. Maynard, show him something. Go on." I say, "Wait a
minute, man. That was a long time ago." He says, "Go on, go on. Show him
something." I say, "I don't think I can do that." He says, "Go on and
shut this man up. Go on out there and show him." I say, "Well, I'll
try." So I'm straining to stand up and I get up and I go out to the
center of the hotel [lobby]. And then I say, "Well, let me see if I
remember this. Now let me start my motor, shift my gears. Okay, here we
go." And I say [hums a stock introductory phrase]. I do the shim sham
shimmy.
-
WHITE
- Right, exactly.
-
NICHOLAS
- I do about two choruses. And then I say [hums the "shave and a haircut"
beat], and then everybody applauds. The guy at the desk, he applauds
too, because I did get out there and do it. Then I bow like this and
then all of a sudden I'm out of breath. And so my friend, he comes up
and says, "Oh, Mr. Maynard, come on over here and sit down." So I sit
down. Then we continue the rest of the story.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay. Well, we don't want to spoil the rest of the story before we
see it. Well, I tell you. This has been such a great experience. I've
learned so many things about you and I've basically asked all of the
questions that I intended to. Is there anything else that you might like
to add?
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, I'm going to appear here in Los Angeles starting June 5.
-
WHITE
- Okay, right, at the Ford [Anson] Theater, right?
-
NICHOLAS
- At the Ford Theater, across the street from the Hollywood Bowl.
-
WHITE
- Yes, indeed.
-
NICHOLAS
- My brother's going to be with me. In fact, my brother is going to be in
Detroit with me, too. And he's going to be here in Los Angeles with me
at the Ford Theater. And we're going to do a book signing of Brotherhood in Rhythm. And Constance Valis
Hill, she will be out to sign the book with us.
-
WHITE
- Terrific.
-
NICHOLAS
- That's happening in July, next month. That's what's on the agenda, you
might say.
-
WHITE
- Yes.
-
NICHOLAS
- And I'll be doing a master class on the fifth with my granddaughters.
-
WHITE
- Okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- My brother will be singing at the Jazz Bakery club.
-
WHITE
- In Culver City.
-
NICHOLAS
- In Culver City. Oh, Catherine and I will be staying at one of the hotels
in Culver City.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay. Maybe that old hotel, the Culver City Hotel?
-
NICHOLAS
- I don't know.
-
WHITE
- Yeah, it's a neat hotel there.
-
NICHOLAS
- I don't know, but one of the hotels.
-
WHITE
- That's in the month of July?
-
NICHOLAS
- This is all going to be in July. So on the fifth— Oh, I'm going to be
interviewed on a television show that same day, on the fifth.
-
WHITE
- Boy, you've got a busy month.
-
NICHOLAS
- In the morning, six o'clock in the morning.
-
WHITE
- Oh, my goodness.
-
NICHOLAS
- I'm going to be doing this television show because, naturally, I'm going
to be talking about what's going to be happening at the Ford Theater and
all the other things. I think the sixth, that's the day of signing the
book. I think on the seventh, this is when my brother's going to sing at
the Jazz Bakery. On the eighth we're going to be performing at the Ford
Theater with all of the famous dancers. They'll be paying a tribute to
my brother and me; they're going to show the film clips. Then on the
ninth day of July there's going to be a reception at the hotel where
we're going to be staying. All the cast from the show will be there.
We'll have food, all of that. And that will be the last day. The fifth,
sixth, seventh, eighth, and ninth. Oh, wait a minute, there's some other
place we're going—UCLA [University of California, Los Angeles], your
place. [laughs]
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay. Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- We're going there for something.
-
WHITE
- What month is that?
-
NICHOLAS
- In July.
-
WHITE
- In July as well?
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah. So we have these five days, isn't it? The fifth, sixth, seventh,
eighth, and ninth, those five days that something is going to be going
on, paying a tribute to the Nicholas Brothers. And UCLA will be one of
those days.
-
WHITE
- Well, you certainly have a lot to look forward to in the very near
future.
-
NICHOLAS
- I hope to tell you.
-
WHITE
- Very, very fruitful plans.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yes. Well, I like it. It keeps me young. Keeps me alive. It keeps me
doing things and not just sitting down and doing anything at all.
Because I could really get that way, staying out there at the Motion
Picture and Television Country House. I see so many other people there,
who— They're just existing. They get three meals every day. They come
out and eat and then go right back to their room and watch television,
and they watch television until it's time for the next meal. Breakfast,
lunch, and dinner. So they like when I go out and I'm doing things.
-
WHITE
- Sure. They can live vicariously through you, with all your energy and
gregariousness—
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, and they like that I do that. They don't have the opportunity to
do those things. I think some of them don't want to.
-
WHITE
- That's true.
-
NICHOLAS
- They're happy just being there, eating the three meals a day, going to
their room, watching television, and that's it.
-
WHITE
- My goodness, and here you are, flying off to Detroit, you're in a movie,
you're going to Paris—
-
NICHOLAS
- I'm going to Sweden, I'm going—
-
WHITE
- St. Louis, etc., etc. You're quite a role model for them.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, so I'm still rolling along and doing my thing. And it's so
wonderful, being married to my beautiful wife, Catherine, Mrs. Catherine
Hopkins Nicholas.
-
WHITE
- Yeah, that's terrific.
-
NICHOLAS
- See, she's keeping me young. After I lost my wife Barbara and had the
stroke, I was really down. Then, when she came into my life more, we got
closer and closer. We didn't know that this would happen, that we would
get married and fall in love. I guess she told you about why we decided
to get married, huh? Did I tell you that?
-
WHITE
- Yes, you did. We talked about that, yeah, that's a nice story.
-
NICHOLAS
- Yeah, isn't that a nice story?
-
WHITE
- Yes, very nice. Well, things are just going along just wonderfully for
you. You know, it's been such a wonderful, wonderful opportunity to
spend time with you and get to know you a bit better and for you to be
able to share your life with so many people that will have access to
this material in our library. So on behalf of the UCLA Oral History
Program, I'd like to thank you.
-
NICHOLAS
- Well, let me tell you this— Some other things are coming up.
-
WHITE
- Oh, okay.
-
NICHOLAS
- A lady just called me from Chicago and would like for my brother and me
to go there and talk about this guy Jelly Roll [Morton], who wrote blues
songs. He was from New Orleans, Louisiana. She would like for us to go
there and talk about that old show business.
-
WHITE
- Right.
-
NICHOLAS
- And then Catherine and I are planning to go to Washington, D.C. again.
And we will see President Clinton for the last time, because this is his
last time in office. And we will also see the first lady. Then we're
also planning to go to Paris, France.
-
WHITE
- Great.
-
NICHOLAS
- So these are things that are coming up. And if anything else comes up,
I'll let you know. [laughs]
-
WHITE
- Okay, that's a deal. I'd like to thank you very personally. I've had a
great experience coming to your home. Thank you for your hospitality.
It's been a terrific experience for me and I just want to thank you.
-
NICHOLAS
- Thank you.