JB:
Today is Tuesday, March 11, 2008, and I’m here in Santa Monica with
Michelle Arens, who’s visiting from her home in Australia. We’re going
to be talking about her involvement with the Craft and Folk Art Museum
as well as some of her personal background. And my name is Joan
Benedetti. So, Michelle--
MA:
Yes? (Laughing)
JB:
Start at the beginning. Can you tell us where and when you were born?
MA:
OK. I was born on April 20, 1951 in Kansas City, Missouri, but (my
family) only lived there for six months and moved to Austin, Minnesota.
And I lived in Austin, Minnesota for my entire adult life (until 1976).
I went to Beloit College in Beloit, Wisconsin. When I graduated from
there I went back briefly to my same hometown, worked (at the) Gerard
Center, which was a halfway house for mentally disturbed children. And
we had a snowstorm that snowed us in for a week and I decided (both
laughing) that I no longer wanted to live in Minnesota. And my sister
had married and was living in Los Angeles, so I came out to Los Angeles
in 1976 and lived in Los Angeles from that time until we moved to
England for one year and then on to Australia in 1992.
JB:
Mmm, wow. Tell me, you said you went to work at a home for the mentally
ill--
MA:
Yes.
JB:
Did you—what was your major in college? Was it psychology or something
(like that)?
MA:
No, actually, I majored in philosophy and minored in elementary
education and—when I did my student teaching in elementary education--I
discovered that teaching young kids was not what I wanted to do. And I
just sort of happened (into) this job.
JB:
Oh I see.
MA:
You know, after you get out of college you have to have your first job
and this was my first job so it really didn’t have anything to do with
anything!
JB:
Except the snow! (i.e., her leaving Minnesota)
MA:
Except the snow, yes.
JB:
And when you were in school—or any other time—in the early years—did you
take any art classes--studio art or art history or--
MA:
I always took art. When you were going to school back in those days they
divided everybody into the college-bound and the people who were never
going to go to college and so should learn a trade, like for women it
was secretarial school. And I was in the college-bound category. But I
insisted that I always take art and when they—you always had to take all
of the (college-preparatory) subjects—you know, you had to take math and
science and history and everything all year. So squeezing in my art was
a real challenge at times.
JB:
So they didn’t consider art to be part of the college-bound curriculum?
MA:
No, this was just an extra activity that I had to really work at, trying
to schedule in an art class every time.
JB:
And you really wanted to do that.
MA:
And I really wanted to do it, yeah.
JB:
And that was making art.
MA:
Yeah, it was mostly just anything, really, (that had to do with) making
art. When I came to Los Angeles, I worked for the first two years at the
Roxy nightclub on Sunset Strip because my sister worked there. My
brother-in-law was the lighting designer there, and I worked in the box
office.
JB:
Was that a comedy club?
MA:
No, no, rock and roll bands!
JB:
Oh! OK. I guess I never—(both laughing)
MA:
Bette Midler, Bob Marley—all of those people!
JB:
I’m showing my age!
MA:
And that was back in the—well, it was in the late seventies. And then in
1978 I got a job at UCLA in Publications Services. And while at UCLA,
because I was an employee there, I always got to take their extension
courses at a reduced rate. So I took basket making from natural fibers,
I took printmaking. I did lots of philosophy and Indian art and
archaeology. And, you know—just anything I was interested in. So I
always did those courses when I was employed there because I got a good
discount on the courses.
JB:
And I know that you have a special interest in printmaking.
MA:
Yeah.
00:05:00
JB:
When did that start?
MA:
Probably in high school. I had--one of my art teachers was a printmaker
and taught printmaking and etching as part of it and I just loved it and
took further courses and when I went to England for the year, there was
a group of printmakers that did etchings and they had a studio and you
could come in and make etching plates and make prints and I did that and
just sort of continued on. And then when I went to Australia I decided
to get an Associate Diploma in fine art and did printmaking there too.
That was my minor--printmaking.
JB:
Well, I want to get back to what you’ve been doing in Australia, but
first I just want to ask a little bit more about what may have led you
to your involvement with the Craft and Folk Art Museum. Had you ever,
before you came to CAFAM, had you ever worked in a gallery or a museum?
MA:
No, never. It was completely new. I had left my job at UCLA and I was
just sort of looking around, trying to figure out what would be
interesting to do and I’ve gone to museums all my life and have always
enjoyed going to museums. (When I was in L.A.) I lived near—I lived in
the Fairfax area on Curson--
JB:
You actually—I was just going to say—you actually lived on Curson--
MA:
I was very close.
JB:
--which is where the museum—well, it was the nearest cross street to the
museum.
MA:
Yeah. (Interruption in recording)
MA:
So when I was looking around for work I was—I really thought that
museums would be a great place to work—I mean, who wouldn’t think that?
(Laughing) And I, at first, went to the L.A. County Museum (of Art) and
sort looked around to see what their kinds of volunteers were doing.
JB:
So you were thinking about a volunteer job at this time.
MA:
Well, I figured that that’s the way you did it. I didn’t have any
qualifications--
JB:
That was smart, yeah.
MA:
--and so I figured the best way to do it would be to be a volunteer and
then you start—you know, people find out you’re capable of doing
things—and if something opens up, you’re there. But I didn’t like the
L.A. County—I didn’t like the atmosphere—I thought the museum volunteers
were—I don’t know—they just looked like older wealthy women and I didn’t
think I would fit in at all and I thought, no, this isn’t really a place
for me, so I went to the Craft and Folk Art Museum. And I thought, well,
this looks like a really good place to volunteer. So I asked them about
volunteering and that’s when Aileen had just recently started—this was
in ’86.
JB:
Oh, I remember—Aileen Colton--I think her name was.
MA:
And so she had recently started recruiting—I mean actively
recruiting—and starting up a volunteer program.
JB:
Yes, we had volunteers, but (until Aileen came along) we didn’t really
have--
MA:
--have a program
JB:
--have a structured program.
MA:
So I got the information and I thought—I thought it was very interesting
because I had to fill out an application and I had to have an interview
to be a volunteer and it was a bit intimidating, you know, at first. But
I actually think it’s a good idea and when I was living in Australia, I
tried to get our museum to actually do something like that, but they
never would, but I think it’s a really good program, cause it makes you
feel like you’ve actually almost got a job when you--
JB:
When you have responsibility--
MA:
--volunteer.
JB:
And the museum has some responsibility to you.
00:10:00
MA:
Oh, yeah. And she (Aileen) did. She had a great program and gave
everybody lots of information. So that when you started you knew a lot
about the museum and she gave you, you know, old programs and booklets
and just sort of tried to fill you in on everything about the museum and
introduced you to staff and took you around and gave you a lot of
options about different kinds of volunteer programs. And I knew I didn’t
want to do tour groups. I wasn’t really into the education program.
And—but they had a library and I thought, well, my other thing I always
do is go to libraries, so I figured a library would be a really good
volunteer job and then I was also interested in (the) installation of
the shows and so they thought they would try me out.
They talked Marcie (Page), probably, into (Laughing) trying me out.
Cause Marcie didn’t really like volunteers.
JB:
Oh-h-h.
MA:
She was not really--
JB:
I know that she liked you--
MA:
--enthusiastic about volunteers.
JB:
Yeah, I guess I’d forgotten that she had that general feeling.
MA:
Yeah, and--
JB:
Before she had met you! (Both laughing)
MA:
Yeah, and I guess people were a little surprised because she had sort of
been, sort of reluctant to take on a volunteer. And so I basically took
two volunteer jobs working with Marcie and working with you.
JB:
So you took them at the same time.
MA:
Yeah, I was doing both. I’d work—I was trying to remember if I
worked—when I started out as a volunteer—I know I had worked one day a
week with Marcie and I worked one day with you in the library, but I
think I might have had two days at some point in the library. And then
I’d work extra time when there was an exhibition coming or going. I’d
come in for doing condition reports and taking things out of the crates
and stuff. And also for packing up, so—because I wasn’t (otherwise)
employed, you know, I was pretty flexible and could work extra hours
when I needed to. So I started doing those two volunteer jobs.
JB:
Yes, I remember that in addition to working in the library that, you
know, my remembrance was that you were doing registrarial kinds of
things. But you were actually working with installations also.
MA:
Yeah, yeah.
JB:
Of course, the museum didn’t have a very big collection—permanent
collection—but it did have some—did you work on that at all?
MA:
I worked a little bit, but not a lot. I did a lot of the—the marking (of
permanent collection objects). Once I passed the pen-writing test (both
laughing) (and) it was found that I could write small and legible,
Marcie let me put the marks on, you know, put the registration numbers
on objects. So we would spend a bit of time doing that, but most of what
I did was helping out during installation and de-installation. And some
taking care of objects and putting them on shelves and things like that,
but it was mostly just working with exhibitions.
JB:
So what are some of the--I don’t know--specific experiences that you
remember as far as working with Marcie or putting up shows?
MA:
Oh-h yes. I remember—there probably are three or four really specific
ones I remember, and the first one was the first exhibition that I
helped—take out of the crates and put on the plinths--was the Alvar
Aalto (“Alvar Aalto: Furniture and Glass,” organized by the Museum of
Modern Art). And it was all this gorgeous, beautiful—and very
heavy—glass. And I was terrified ‘cause I knew how much each of those
pieces were worth (Laughing). (Accidental interruption in recording.
Some content repeated.)
JB:
OK. You were talking about how you got started at the Craft and Folk Art
Museum and I think you were actually living quite close by.
MA:
Yeah. I was living on Curson Street, just off Beverly Boulevard, which
is just blocks away from the Craft and Folk Art Museum. And I was
looking for a place to volunteer in.
JB:
So you were a volunteer, then, first.
MA:
Definitely I was a volunteer--
JB:
And that’s what you were looking for--
MA:
I was looking for volunteer work. I wasn’t looking for paid work at the
time. I was looking for a job switch and was looking into museums and I
sort of knew that volunteering would be the way to go to get a foot in
the door because I had no (museum) degrees, no experience in a museum.
So I was actually looking to volunteer for a museum, to work in a
museum. And because I didn’t need to work at the time, luckily--
JB:
And was CAFAM the first museum that you went to?
MA:
No, it wasn’t. (Laughing) I went to the County Museum because I love art
and thought it would be fun to volunteer in the County Museum—the Los
Angeles County Museum (of Art) and just didn’t like the atmosphere—I
didn’t like the volunteers there--they all looked like older women,
dressed very richly with pearls, the whole bit, and I thought it would--
JB:
I think there was actually a dress code (at LACMA)--for the docents at
any rate--
MA:
There probably was.
00:15:00
JB:
Not anymore, but I think there was at the beginning.
MA:
It just seemed a bit staid, and I didn’t like that. So I went up to the
Craft and Folk Art Museum and it was much more relaxed and it was a
great museum besides that. I really enjoyed it. And at the time they
were starting a big recruitment for volunteers and a big volunteer
program that was very structured. So I got an application form.
JB:
Was that Aileen’s--
MA:
Yeah, Aileen Colton. And it was—she was fantastic and she really did, I
think, a lot. In fact I remember I probably had started to go to the
Craft and Folk Art Museum because there might have even been an
advertisement or they were actually looking actively for volunteers.
That I can’t remember for sure.
JB:
I think that’s very possible. I know she was really pro-active.
MA:
Yeah. And I thought it was—at first I thought it was a bit intimidating,
going for a job interview to be a volunteer, but I think it was a really
good thing to do it that way because you really did feel like you had a
job, that this was a volunteer job. You had responsibility, you know,
and the museum thought of you as something more than just someone who
just sort of showed up, you know. And she gave us—all the volunteers—she
had this whole information packet about the museum—who everybody was,
all the exhibitions. And it was just really nice. It was a really nice
program. And when she was talking about all the different areas that you
could volunteer in, I knew I didn’t want to do tours or work with kids
or—so the education department was a “no.” And I liked libraries, so I
thought, well the library would be really good. And then I was really
interested in working with the objects themselves, and especially in
taking—putting up exhibitions and when she told me I could volunteer
(to) do something like that, I was--I thought that was really exciting.
And I heard afterward that Marcie Page, the registrar, wasn’t exactly
enthusiastic about volunteers, but she was willing to give me a try, and
we got along great. So it wasn’t a problem (Laughing).
JB:
Well, she was a very careful person about her responsibilities, but I’m
sure that once she got to know you--
MA:
Well, she was careful, and she certainly taught me a lot. But she didn’t
want just anybody working with the objects, so, you know, you really had
to pass Marcie’s tests, in order to stay. (Laughing)
JB:
I’m not surprised! So—did you work—go to work at the same time as a
volunteer (with Marcie) at the same time (as) in the library--?
MA:
In both, yeah. I did one day with Marcie, once a week, and I did one and
sometimes two days, I think, in the library. And when we had exhibitions
come in, I worked extra days to install the exhibitions, and we had to
pack up things, I would come in and work extra days for that. So it was
at least two days a week that I was there on a weekly basis and then
extra days as needed.
JB:
I know I should remember more about your early days in the library, but
I couldn’t remember exactly when you started. Do you remember
approximately when that was?
MA:
Well, I think it--I had always thought it was around August of ‘86
JB:
’86. OK.
MA:
Yeah. 1986 and I see by this that it’s probably right because my first--
JB:
Michelle is looking at the list of exhibitions--
MA:
My first exhibition was “Alvar Aalto: Furniture and Glass.” (Opened
September 10, 1986)
JB:
I always tend to think in terms of the shows.
MA:
Yeah, it helps remind you, you know, where you started and what you
(were) doing and that was the very first time I had actually worked with
Marcie—and we were unpacking for the installation of that exhibition—and
it was a really terrifying job because the pieces of glass—his glass
work--
JB:
Oh that’s right--
MA:
--was large.
JB:
I always think of the (Aalto) furniture, but actually there was--
MA:
No, I was doing the glass work and it was large and it was heavy and you
had to take it out of the crate and hold it next to your body and then
walk to wherever you were going to put it and it was a real, sort of
terrifying experience--
JB:
Sure.
MA:
As a first exhibition installation.
JB:
Yeah.
MA:
And because I’d had all the paperwork and we were doing condition
reports and stuff I also knew how much each one of those glass things
was worth--
00:20:00
JB:
Oh my God, yeah!!
MA:
Which didn’t help either because, oh goll, if I break it, it’s thousands
of dollars, but I do remember that as my very first job in installing an
exhibition was that glassware.
JB:
Now the museum did have a small permanent collection.
MA:
Yeah.
JB:
Did you get to work with that also?
MA:
Yes, in bits and pieces. I got to work with putting the registration
numbers on objects in which the writing had to be very, very small in
permanent ink (and) that we actually used an ink pen and ink, rather
than like a ball point or a rolling writer or anything like we have now,
and so you had to be able to write the number very smally and you had to
use an ink pen and ink to put the numbers on--
JB:
Without smearing it!
MA:
Yeah, without smearing it—and it also had to be legible, so someone
could actually read the number. And that was pretty tricky on some
things, but once Marcie was assured that I could actually write small
and legibly then she let me put numbers on objects.
JB:
Just to continue with the Alvar Aalto show for a minute—I think that
show took up both galleries--
MA:
Yeah, it was a big one. Yeah, it was both galleries. (The galleries at
5814 Wilshire before the renovation were on the first and third floors.)
JB:
It came from the Museum of Modern Art (in New York City). It was a very
prestigious show, I think. It really got the attention of other museums
in the area.
MA:
Oh it did. It was a fantastic exhibition.
JB:
Do you have any memories of being there at that opening or other
openings?
MA:
I was there for just about every opening, and a lot of times also
assisted in handing out, you know, the drinks and stuff like that—or
just sort of being at the opening and welcoming people, the sort of
things that you do at openings. I was pretty much at every exhibition
opening. The one opening that I remember—and I’m going to look at the
list again here—because this was a pretty funny one. This was a Saudi
Arabian costume--
JB:
Oh, costumes, yes.
MA:
--costume exhibition.
JB:
Yes, Janet Marcus was very involved with that, I remember.
MA:
Which was a really—I can’t even find it—I know it’s here--
JB:
We can pause for a moment. (Pause in the recording)
MA:
“Palms and Pomegranates.”
JB:
“Palms and Pomegranates,” yes.
MA:
“Palms and Pomegranates: Traditional Dress of Saudi Arabia,” (Opened
August 16, 1988) and this was in 1988 and it was a huge exhibition with
lots of dresses and costumes. And I helped—I was helping dress all of
the mannequins into these incredibly complicated costumes, you know,
with head scarves and veils and, you know, just wonderful clothing. And
it was big and Marcie and I were up on the very top floor and we were
still dressing mannequins at—when the opening started—(Laughing)
JB:
Oh, yes (Laughing). I don’t think that was the only exhibition at which
that happened.
MA:
Probably not—but this one I remember because we had, probably, at least
two (mannequins) to go and they had opened the doors and we were just
all—you know, hoping that they (the opening guests) were going to just
stop in the middle (on the mezzanine) where the food was--
JB:
Yeah and have a drink--
MA:
And give us enough time to finish putting the costumes on—and they did.
Nobody really knew that we had actually been that close to not having it
ready for the opening! (Laughing) Because it was a mammoth task having
to do all that work. It was a lot of work to do.
JB:
Well, I can remember—there was one show where the materials actually
didn’t—it was again a traveling show—and the crates didn’t come and for
some reason—I guess because the invitations had already gone out and it
just would have been impossible to--
MA:
--stop the opening--
JB:
--to let everybody know. They went ahead with the opening—and I think
the crates—I wish I could remember—we can fill this in later—but I think
the truck actually arrived in the middle of the opening. (Guardians of
Happiness: A Shamanistic Approach to Korean Folk Art; opened May 5 –
July 18, 1982.) That was unusual to say the least!
00:25:00
MA:
Yes, usually things were very orderly.
JB:
But it certainly happened! So do you have any memories of, oh, just the
kind of, you know--I was thinking about openings, because you’d see so
many members at that time, and—but do you have any thoughts about the
kinds of people you would meet at the Craft and Folk Art Museum?
MA:
Well, they were always very enthusiastic, I think, the people that came
to the openings, and there was such a wide variety in the types of
exhibitions that went on there. It was always amazing because there were
a lot of people, you know, who came to every single opening—whether or
not it was contemporary craft or traditional craft or costume or
furniture or—just the many multiple examples of craft and folk art and
architecture and design that happened at the Craft and Folk Art Museum.
But there was a real strong core of people who just came all the time,
you know, that group that were always members and went to every opening
and shopped in the shop and they just always loved whatever they saw—and
it was really good—they were really good people, really supportive and
enthusiastic about the museum and what it was doing.
JB:
Yes, and I remember there were some of them, at least in the early days,
that almost always wore what we used to call “ethnic” costume.
(Laughing)
MA:
Oh, yes, yes they did. Lots of the ethnic jewelry and, you know,
paisley, and you know, shawls and flowery dresses and all sorts of
things.
JB:
They were definitely gala events.
MA:
They were the “ethnic” crowd, yes.
JB:
Speaking of the variety of shows—and there was a variety of types of
objects in the permanent collection--what did you think about that? I
remember that there was a—something of a controversy from time to time
about just what the museums should be collecting—or if they should be
collecting at all--
MA:
Oh yeah.
JB:
And then a related issue was whether or not there should be more focus
to the exhibitions— What are your thoughts—or were your thoughts at the
time--about that?
MA:
I don’t know what my thoughts about it at the time were. A lot of it was
really new to me because I’d—most of the art fields that I (had
experience with) were painting, printmaking, and so it was all of the
fine art type of thing. And the folk arts I didn’t really know a lot
about or get involved in that much and textile design which was just
sort of—so everything was just really new for me. It was a whole new art
world, basically, that I was getting involved in. And didn’t know a lot
about. And so—I mean—for me it was fine because I was learning about all
of this stuff. It was great. And mural painting and, you know, all the
wonderful traditions that are in Los Angeles—the Mexican (and) South
American folk art and the Japanese folk art. I mean everything was just
great and even through you, I mean, outsider art, I mean that was
just—that is still one of my loves to this day, you know--
JB:
That’s right.
MA:
And being introduced to all of this kind of stuff. For me, it was
wonderful because it certainly expanded my own interests in art and
different kinds of art and different kinds of collecting. Now I collect
just about anything. It’s just what I like—and not necessarily, you
know, I don’t collect paintings or—a lot of people will just go only
with traditional fine arts: paintings, sculpture, maybe a little into
photography, but being able to blend everything together and just
collect everything—art from all sorts of traditions is really a great
thing, I think, to learn about.
00:30:00
JB:
Yes, I think, sometimes it was easier to say what the museum didn’t
exhibit or collect than to say what it did, but I think for—let’s see
what you think about this—for many of us that had worked at the museum
for a number of years—a pattern did emerge and there was a relevance to
each other of the kinds of things that were shown.
MA:
Uh-huh.
JB:
At any rate there were those who didn’t necessarily agree with that.
MA:
Yeah.
JB:
But I guess it was Edith Wyle’s vision that really dictated—in a very
flexible way—what was shown.
MA:
One of the interesting things about it too was--about the Craft and Folk
Art Museum and its collection or the art work that it exhibited--was its
emphasis on the people who made the art.
JB:
Yes.
MA:
And all the craftspeople who did the art--traditional, nontraditional,
sculptural, you know, whatever it was, there was a real emphasis on the
people who were actually doing art work and a respect that they (the
museum) gave them (the artists) for the kinds of art work that they did,
you know, whether it was tatting, or, you know, embroidery, or things
that people would think of as just sort of, you know, householdy type of
things.
JB:
I think that they were sometimes called minor arts. That used to drive
me crazy.
MA:
Yeah. And I think the Craft and Folk Art Museum generally respected
these people and saw them as creating art in what they did, no matter
what form it was.
JB:
Yes, and that was the case whether they were so-called contemporary
craft artists or--
MA:
Yeah.
JB:
Or so-called traditional artists.
MA:
Yeah.
JB:
But when they were working in traditional forms, there was also an
emphasis on the culture--
MA:
Yes, where they came from, why they were doing it, or how it shows up in
the culture. I actually went to the Mingei Museum (recently) when we
were in San Diego.
JB:
Yes, it’s now in Balboa Park. (Originally, it was located in a
storefront in La Jolla.)
MA:
Yeah, and I had really never been there.
JB:
It’s a wonderful museum.
MA:
It is a beautiful museum. But what they had on display—it was also sort
of thematic, like, spoons from all of these different countries and
(utilizing) all of these different kinds of (materials) like metal,
wooden, or whatever. But all of the cultures were all together, just
displayed together. And it was a really interesting exhibition, and I
think that—that was sort of the opposite, I guess, taking all cultures
and saying all cultures have spoons. But it also imbued in each
culture—because each spoon was different—it was a different
interpretation, and you had to really surround yourself with the culture
in order to get the interpretation of their spoon and what metal—what
type of material they used and things like that.
JB:
Yeah, well, of course, making the context at least as important as the
object or the art itself was something that I remember specifically
Edith Wyle--
MA:
Oh, yeah.
JB:
--saying, and I’m not even sure that I knew exactly what she meant when
I first heard her say it, which was back in the late seventies--
MA:
Yeah.
JB:
But it certainly was before its time.
MA:
Definitely before its time.
JB:
Later—I think you were still in Los Angeles—when did you—do you remember
when you left?
MA:
I left in 1991, September ’91.
JB:
So it was while we were still at the May Company building—
MA:
Oh, OK.
JB:
But there had (already) begun to be a lot of talk for a whole lot of
both specific and general reasons, about the importance of culture in
contemporary life.
MA:
Um-hm.
JB:
And I remember going to some Western Museum Association meetings--
MA:
Uh-huh.
JB:
I don’t know—I don’t think you actually went to those meetings--
MA:
No.
00:35:00
JB:
But I’m sure that—I hope that we talked about them. And about how
important it was beginning to be to a lot of museums to change the way
they looked at objects.
MA:
Yes. And now it’s traditional, I mean this is the way that you do view
the object is you pull on all of these things. But one of the other
things I remember is, well, as part of the library work, pulling
together all of the texts and information for the curators. And all of
the information they put into the wall panels and texts and label copy
to explain it. And how much study they did and how much research they
did, even if it was an exhibition that was coming from somewhere else,
with, you know, ready-made things available to them. The curators and
the education people--
JB:
And the docents--
MA:
And the docents always took the time to really, you know, study what was
going to be on exhibition—and Janet Marcus (former Museum Educator),
when she would take all of her education people through—you know, the
walk-through at the beginning of each exhibition--to tell the docents or
explain to the docents what everything was, why it was there, and give,
you know, the little stories so that they could actually tell people
that came into the museum these things. And there was a lot of
intellectual thought going into all of these exhibitions that I haven’t
really found in the other museums—well, I’ve only ever worked in one
other museum—well, no, I actually have worked in a couple of others—but
that kind of thing doesn’t happen everywhere. It’s--maybe a curator, you
know, when they want to do something really special will do it, but (at
CAFAM) this was an ongoing process. This was continuing. You know, “What
is our next exhibition going to be about?” Then you would look up and
try to get information on it. We’d do interlibrary loans, pull things
out of the text. We had the whole shelf, you know, of books on reserve
so that people could come in and look at it, try to pull together as
much information as you can. And everybody was really involved in each
exhibition. And on an intellectual level as well as on a design level
and on a display level. And I thought it was quite amazing.
JB:
Why do you think that was? Why do you think it was different there?
MA:
Well, it must have been because someone had to have started that kind of
thing going and I would assume it was Edith, you know, I mean, I didn’t
start working there until ’86 and the museum had already been up for
about ten years when I was there and so I think, you know, obviously,
this became the pattern of how you did things at the Craft and Folk Art
Museum. Who started it I don’t know, but that’s the way everything—I
think you probably had a good deal to do with it in the library.
JB:
Well, I just had a great interest in it.
MA:
Yeah.
JB:
Edith definitely, as far as the staff and the board was concerned—she
was the leader—in pretty much everything—but I think she did tell—I
don’t know if it was me or just (that) she was talking about it at a
staff meeting or something—I think she did say that Pat Altman, who was
I think one of the founders of the museum at UCLA, which is now the
Fowler Museum—I think Edith credited Pat Altman with pointing out the
importance of context to her.
MA:
Really.
JB:
That’s my recollection. If Edith was alive, she might very well (both
laughing) disagree with me—but that’s what I remember. And I also think
that because of the kinds of material that we were showing and
collecting, we had to explain ourselves, it seemed like, you know--
MA:
Yeah, that could be.
00:40:00
JB:
Other art museums, it was taken for granted, if you were an art museum,
you collected, as you were saying, paintings, sculpture, etc., etc. The
Craft and Folk Art Museum considered itself an art museum. That was
always important. I don’t know who—I don’t know if it was just something
that I assumed or if someone actually told me that when I first started
working there, but there was never any question in my mind—I think in
most people’s minds—that this was an art museum.
MA:
Yes.
JB:
Even though it showed a lot of material that other museums that called
themselves ethnographic or anthropology showed. But there was a
difference in the way CAFAM showed those materials.
MA:
Oh, there was a definite difference--
JB:
Do you want to talk about that?
MA:
Yeah, I mean, there—it’s hard to—I guess it’s hard to explain it because
today it seems so normal--
JB:
Yes.
MA:
Because that is now the normal way that objects—folk art, you know--is
exhibited, with all the background about who made it, where, what time,
how—its importance to the culture. We all take it for granted now
because that’s what everybody does. And even natural history museums and
traditional ethnography museums are all re-interpreting their
collections. You know, they’re all getting busy re-interpreting it.
JB:
Good point, yeah.
MA:
The Craft and Folk Art Museum always considered the object and the
culture as something, yeah, you put it on a pedestal--
JB:
Yes, you literally did.
MA:
Yes you do. And, you know, you put spotlights on it and you talk about
what skill it takes to make it. And you do have to explain it because
you can’t just say, well, that’s a Sam Francis, and so—you know,
therefore it’s important. Or, you know, it’s a Rothko, or you know, a
Cezanne or something like that. Which is supposed to be
self-explanatory. These are great artists so, of course, this is why you
have this hanging on the wall. So (at a place like CAFAM) you do have to
explain why these objects are so unique and so beautiful and you have
to—and you look at them as you would an art piece. You know, what is
this object telling me in its very many—how it’s made, what its colors
are, what does this tell me about it. So, yeah.
JB:
Yeah, I think there’s no question that the Craft and Folk Art Museum—it
probably wasn’t the only place that was doing it in the United States or
even on the West coast, but it was one of the leading institutions in
terms of changing the way people looked at what we used to call the
“minor arts,” the “applied arts” --
MA:
But it involved everything. I mean, the way that it was displayed. The
thought that went into wall colors—I mean--the walls were always
repainted for every exhibition. You know, things were moved around. And
everything was designed in order to show this in a very professional
way. And it was designed—the exhibition was designed—and it just, you
know, had that importance, and it had that attention to detail that went
into each of the exhibition designs.
JB:
I think that Edith did design some of the exhibitions herself. But also
Bernard Kester is someone who designed quite a few.
MA:
Yeah, they would bring in different people. I’m not really quite sure
who was doing what. But yeah, they would bring in people that would take
a look at it and decide how things should be moved, and I remember
Timoteo had a lot of work to do.
JB:
Yes, you know that (now) the museum finally has an elevator! But all of
those years--
MA:
Oh yes, gol, yes!
JB:
--that you were there--.
MA:
Yeah, walking up to the third floor--
JB:
It was terrible. People that used to come in—just as visitors—would
complain. And I would think to myself—oh-h-h, if you only worked here!
MA:
Oh yes!
JB:
Then you’d really be complaining!
MA:
Yes, and having to drag things up there, you know, some quite heavy.
JB:
Yes.
MA:
Yeah, it could be quite a task. Or even mounting—I remember the ship’s
head for one of the exhibitions. (It) was this gigantic woman—you know,
a ship’s prow—and it was huge—I mean it was gigantic! And it took all of
us, holding this—I didn’t—I really can’t remember how we hung it up on
the wall, but we did. But it was incredible and we were—there were a
whole bunch of us lifting this thing up, you know, to hang on the wall!
00:45:00
JB:
It’s just amazing to think about what—some of the things that went on
just because of the physical limitations that we had.
MA:
Yeah, and there wasn’t anything fancy—no fancy little people movers or
anything--
JB:
Cranes--
MA:
No, oh no. It was just all muscle and people, putting the exhibitions
up.
JB:
And a lot of heart, you know.
MA:
Oh, yeah, yeah. And that was the other thing about installing and
exhibitions was (that) all of the staff would participate.
JB:
And certainly at the last minute, they did!
MA:
Especially at the last minute, yeah, I mean, if things weren’t quite
going smoothly, I mean everybody would just drop their regular jobs and
everybody would be on the floor trying to get an exhibition together.
JB:
I remember, yeah, I remember sweeping the floor—and speaking of
painting—I think the floors would actually get repainted sometimes.
MA:
Yeah.
JB:
And sometimes they weren’t completely dry by the time of the opening
(both laughing)!
MA:
I believe that! It was quite amazing!
JB:
Yeah, yeah. Well, maybe we should talk a little bit about what you were
doing in the library (Laughing).
MA:
(both laughing) Oh! Oh dear. Well, most of what I was doing, at least in
the early days, was the exhibition slide cataloging.
JB:
Oh yes. That was such a huge project!
MA:
Oh yeah. And it’s still—I mean—we still have unlabeled slides. (Since
she moved to Australia, Michelle has worked with Joan in the CAFAM
archives a few times when visiting L.A.)
JB:
Yes, although I think that, thanks to you, every exhibition has a set—if
slides were taken—
MA:
Yeah, if slides were taken.
JB:
There were a few that somehow we missed, but at the time that you
started, which—if it was ’86—then, yeah, we had at least ten years
worth!
MA:
Hm-hm.
JB:
Of exhibitions—most of which had been photographed.
MA:
Yes.
JB:
And there were—I don’t even remember if there were labels at all. They
were identified in a very rudimentary way.
MA:
Yes—and a lot of it was going back when I was doing the backlog—the
identification of all of the old, old exhibitions—a lot of it was using
catalogs—hopefully there was a catalog.
JB:
Oh, the exhibition catalogs, right.
MA:
Yes, the exhibition catalogs to identify objects. And then there were
always the ones where sometimes you would remember something so that we
could put a name to it or try and find it. Exhibition lists—you know,
just lists of objects so that we could maybe somehow identify some of
these. And then there were always those shots where we couldn’t figure
out what anything was, so it was (labeled) an “installation shot.”
JB:
Yes, yes, I remember.
MA:
And it was a lot of fun because—I mean it was basically, it was research
work, you know, investigative work. You had to figure this out--
JB:
Detective work.
MA:
It was detective work, you know: where the slides came from--the
order—trying to visualize—the downstairs and the upstairs--
JB:
After the fact!
MA:
Yeah, having never seen the exhibition—and trying to visualize
downstairs and upstairs. And trying to fit the order together from when
you get one end—you get an object at the left-hand side of the slide
that matches the same object that’s the right-hand of the previous
slide--
JB:
And you hope that you’ve got the slide turned the right way!
MA:
Yes. And getting everything in order, you know, trying to make it in
order of exhibition and trying to figure out where the walls were and
where the cases were. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. I would sit there at
the desk with all of these slides and just sort of—at the light table--
JB:
That big light table that we had!
MA:
Yeah, and just try to figure out where everything was—and shuffle them
around and rearrange them and try and get them into an order. And I
think I did pretty good.
00:50:00
JB:
You did great! I was so grateful. I just—it was just wonderful! Now, of
course when you first started, we had a card catalog.
MA:
Yes.
JB:
But I think it was just a year or two later (1987) that we finally got
the first computer! It wasn’t the first computer in the museum, but it
was the first PC. It was the first one—of course it was a DOS operating
system at the time--but I remember how excited I was that finally there
had begun to be some stabilization of (computer) formats. You know there
was a big (competition)—was Apple going to be the one that was the
standard or was it going to be the--what at the beginning was the IBM
PC—Microsoft? So I was reminded of that because, talking about the
exhibitions, one of the first things that we did was to develop a
database of exhibitions. I think you worked on that a little bit.
MA:
I worked on that a little bit, but what I worked on more was the artists
bio files.
JB:
On the computer.
MA:
Yes, on the computer. And then putting the information into the artists
biographical files. And that was—it was interesting working on the
computers, mainly because—you know, I tell people these stories—you
know, when I first worked on a computer we were in DOS--
JB:
Yeah, and they don’t even know what that is—or was!
MA:
And this was scary stuff because when you crashed your computer in DOS,
you’d had it, you know, your information was gone forever. I remember—I
was working on—there was a time when you were—when you could compress
all of the data and then you—for one reason I was working in the
library—this was over in the May Company--
JB:
Oh.
MA:
And I thought I had lost everything in the artists bio files
JB:
Oh God! (Laughing) I don’t know if I knew about this!
MA:
No you didn’t. I think I was working on a weekend or something and I was
all by myself and I was sitting there—oh, no, I’ve just lost the entire
thing. But what I had done was inadvertently I’d compressed it, so I
uncompressed it and it was still all there! (Laughing) But those were
early days of the computer and I remember Marcie being thrilled to death
because she (also) had a computer—for the registration thing.
JB:
Yes, she got hers pretty soon after the library.
MA:
But being able to put all of this information on a computer where you
could manipulate it a bit more than you could with the typewriter--
JB:
And where you didn’t have to repeat the information once you’d entered
it. I don’t think people who romanticize what the card catalog was—and
there are people that do that--
MA:
Yeah.
JB:
--both librarians and nonlibrarians--realize or remember that we had to
have cards duplicated in order to have the different subject headings
and the different access points—whereas with a computer database, of
course, you enter it once and then you can sort it a lot of different
ways.
MA:
Yes, and you can do all sorts of things with it.
JB:
And you can sort it so many different ways—it was such a miracle at the
time!
MA:
Yeah, and we were getting exhibition information in there cause we were
trying to figure out dates and we were trying to figure out the actual
dates—and searching for information as to what the dates were. And then
we could use it and we could have (it sorted by) dates or, you know, by
title and that was much easier to figure out on a computer than it ever
was any way else.
JB:
And still—it was before the Internet!
MA:
Oh yes.
JB:
So, you know, there were still challenges. Let’s talk a bit about the
May Company, about what led up to moving to the May Company Department
Store and what that was like—the move and being there.
MA:
Well, I remember it in two parts. I mean it was a real—I remember losing
the library in the little house (at 731 S. Curson) was just a real
tragedy.
JB:
Oh, you know that it was torn down, finally, a few years ago?
MA:
Yes. And it was really sad because the library was just—it was just a
perfect house for the library. The library was great--
JB:
“The cottage.” We called it “the cottage.”
MA:
Yeah, the little cottage. It was really good. And it was a real shame to
have to leave that and put it on the mezzanine of the May Company
(Laughing).
JB:
Yes—the former luggage department I think it was.
00:55:00
MA:
Yes. And there was also—because I—before I started working full-time in
the library—which was in ’90--
JB:
That’s right. You—by now you were being paid by the library—were you
also working part-time in another department?
MA:
No—I was working full-time in the shop until you got money for the
library job and then I left the shop and I think that was in—it was just
before I left. I think it was in 1989.
JB:
Well 1989 is when we moved—in June of ’89 is when we moved to the May
Company.
MA:
And I was working still in the shop--
JB:
For pay--
MA:
Yeah, for pay for part of that time.
JB:
That was—now John Browse was--
MA:
John left—oh John left before—a long time—well he must have left in
’88—I think—’88, possibly ’89. (April 30, 1989 was John Browse’s last
day.)
JB:
But you got to know him when you were working in the shop.
MA:
Yeah, I worked in the shop. I got a full-time job working in the shop in
‘8—let’s see, it was ’86 I was a volunteer—’88 (actually 1987) I started
working full-time in the shop. And then one day (a week I) volunteered
still in the library.
JB:
I guess that’s why I had it confused in my mind cause I know you
continued to work in the library at least one day a week.
MA:
Yep. So I was working five days in the shop and then I did one volunteer
day still in the library.
JB:
Oh, my goodness!
MA:
And that was when—and when everybody left to go to the May Company, the
shop was still on the corner of Wilshire—it was in the place next door
(at 5800 Wilshire).
JB:
Yes, I’m very confused in my mind about just when that happened because
the shop did continue at the—in the original building at 5814 Wilshire
until everyone moved, didn’t it?
MA:
We (the shop staff) were the last ones out. Everybody had moved (June
30, 1989) and the shop was still there but we were moving into the
5800--
JB:
The building on the corner. OK.
MA:
The building on the corner. And they designed a new shop and then
we—Carol and I—moved—(The new shop at 5800 Wilshire was designed by Gere
Kavanaugh.)
JB:
What was Carol’s last name?
MA:
I can’t remember. I really can’t—John would know.
JB:
I can’t either. Yeah. (Carol De Runtz Day was John Browse’s assistant
until he resigned in April 1989; then she became shop manager and
Michelle was her assistant.)
MA:
He would know. But we (Carol and I) moved all of the shop merchandise
and we were really not supposed to be there because it was (at least
theoretically in terms of earthquakes) unsafe and we were on the very
last days and we had a shopping cart and we moved all of the merchandise
from the back of the shop (at 5814 Wilshire) into the new back of the
shop area (at 5800 Wilshire). It took us about two days to do that and
we were the last ones out of that place.
JB:
But John Browse had left before that.
MA:
He was gone before that. I think he had left about—he had left maybe six
months before that or maybe even longer. And Carol was in charge of the
shop (the manager). She was pregnant.
JB:
I remember that.
MA:
Very pregnant—and her daughter spent her first few months in the back of
the shop (at 5800 Wilshire). Carol would bring her into work and Sarah
would sit in the back in her little chair. It was quite amazing.
JB:
The museum was always very family-oriented. You could always get time
off if you had family emergencies, I remember. Well, I guess I shouldn’t
have jumped ahead to the May Company. But I think—let’s talk about that
and then we’ll try to come back to talk about what you did in the shop.
Let’s talk—since we were talking about the library--
MA:
Putting the library into the mezzanine--
JB:
You were working full-time in the library (starting in January 1990)—and
this was due to the grants that we got from the Irvine Foundation. Not
that I didn’t want—I would love to have had you working full-time,
but—so we had to move to this department store (the May Company), which
was still operating as a department store.
01:00:00
MA:
Yes, it was, when we first worked in there, we would go into the May
Company through the department store, you know, with all the clothing
and everything else and go up to the mezzanine level and—oh gol—I
remember the shelving—moving the shelving. (A moving company moved
everything from CAFAM to the May Company, and then the library shelving
units were put in place by Timoteo Torrico and Michelle.) And everything
was in boxes (and they) were numbered and we got it all together and
Timoteo and I (were) trying to fit the shelves back together. We did it,
you know, but it was just--sometimes you couldn’t—you just couldn’t get
your mind to work.
JB:
Well, it was all modular, and so it was a huge puzzle.
MA:
Yeah, it was. And we just--I can just see him looking at the shelving on
the floor and just telling me, “It’s not going to work.” You know, “We
can’t do this.”
JB:
He was such a sweet guy.
MA:
Oh, he really was. Really, he would try and do anything he could for
you. He was just a wonderful, wonderful person to work for (i.e., to
work with).
JB:
Timoteo Torrico, I think his last name was.
MA:
Yeah, yeah. And his name wasn’t Timoteo. It was Joaquin.
JB:
Yes, that was a little bit strange. I still think of him as Timoteo.
MA:
I do too.
JB:
But his name was—I think his father was Timoteo and somehow there was
some confusion when he was hired--
MA:
Well, there wasn’t confusion. He was illegal. He was using his cousin’s
social security number.
JB:
Oh-h-h. I guess I never got that! Oh that should have been obvious to
me.
MA:
Yeah, he told me that. And then Patrick Ela helped him when they had the
amnesty (in 1986). Patrick helped him get his papers together so that he
could become legal during the early amnesty.
JB:
Oh, I’m so glad you remembered that.
MA:
Yeah. One day I remember Timoteo coming up to me and I don’t remember
what we were doing because I was working in the shop full-time and
Timoteo was always around in the shop area so we got to be, you know,
really friendly, and he said something—I think he brought his little son
in, and his son is named Joaquin and he (Timoteo) told me, he said that,
his name—Timoteo’s name—was Joaquin too. And I looked at him and I said,
“It’s not Timoteo?” He said, “Oh no.” His name was Joaquin. But that’s
what it was. He was illegal.
JB:
He (Timoteo) probably wasn’t supposed to tell you that.
MA:
Oh, no, no. I’m sure he wasn’t.
JB:
Oh my. Yeah, I guess we should interject that Timoteo was the
maintenance person for the museum, although he did all kinds of things.
MA:
He did anything that you wanted him to do.
JB:
And he was there all hours—I think seven days a week a lot of the time.
MA:
I think he was, yeah. I mean, he was always there when I saw him. He
would be a guard. He would be a cleaner, fix-it, paint, build things. I
mean he just did everything.
JB:
If there was a party, he was there, he was the last one to leave.
MA:
To lock up, yeah.
JB:
So--
MA:
So now Timoteo and I are in the mezzanine trying to fit the modular
shelving together--
JB:
I don’t know where I was—I think I must have been out of town or
something because--
MA:
You could have been when we had to do the actual—you had everything set
up—and we had everything numbered and we’d done the floor plan and we’d
done the whole space—you know, figuring out where we wanted everything
and everything was numbered, taken apart, put over into the mezzanine
level and we were putting it all back together again. But for a part of
that you were gone for something--
JB:
I think I must have been because I can’t imagine that (I would have
abandoned you)—at any rate—go ahead.
MA:
We were trying to put the shelves up and we finally got all the shelves
up. And then we were redecorating.
JB:
That was fun.
MA:
That was fun. We had a lot of fun redecorating. And it actually worked
out—it was very comfortable. We finally got it to a very comfortable
state.
JB:
I thought so.
MA:
It was really nice and enjoyable.
JB:
It was surprising because there were no windows and you would have
thought that it would have been kind of dark, but I don’t remember it
that way.
MA:
No, I don’t either, and it seemed we had plenty of space. We had the
whole back workroom area and I was doing some of the MARC (copy)
cataloging, the—you know, the OPAC--
JB:
Yeah, we had gotten on OCLC (the Online Computer Library Center, an
online cooperative cataloging utility) by that time.
MA:
OCLC, yep. We were doing that and so we had a large work space. It
actually seemed like we had more work space than over in the cottage—it
just seemed—everything was just designed better—(Michelle had designed
the workroom space in the May Co. and Joan’s son, Ben, did the workroom
space construction.)
JB:
Well, we had more—I’m pretty sure we did have more than in the cottage.
MA:
Then your office—and then I had my desk—and I was at the reception and
(I had) my computer. And it was really pleasant. It was actually a
really pleasant place to work.
JB:
Well, I’m glad you remember it that way.
01:05:00
MA:
No, I do.
JB:
We were busy, not only because of the move but also because of the
Center for the Study of Art and Culture (CSAC), which was—had been
started—that was, of course, the main reason we got the grant from the
Irvine Foundation and the first meeting—oh, I hope I’m remembering
right—I think the first meeting of the National Advisory Board was that
fall, right after we--
MA:
Yes, I think so because we had just really moved in. (The library moved
to the May Company July 11, 1990; the first CSAC meeting was December
6-8, 1990.) And we were preparing—getting all of these people together
in the rooms, and setting up the conference tables, and the hotel rooms
and catering and--
JB:
You were really in the thick of that!
MA:
Yes, I was! (Laughing) I remember bringing things in, bringing things
out, you know, making sure the catering and tape recording--and making
sure everything got turned over so we could record everything.
JB:
That’s right, we were using cassette tapes.
MA:
Yes, we were using cassette tapes, and taking phone calls and making
sure people arrived and, yeah, I was—and we were both there—very busy
for the few days that it was on.
JB:
Yes, and you actually attended those meetings.
MA:
Yes, I sat in on all the meetings, yep. (Michelle acted as CSAC
Secretary.) And listened to them and listened to everybody talk. It was
a real big thing. It was the first time I had ever been involved in that
kind of—organizing a conference, which is never an easy thing to do.
It’s a lot of work.
JB:
A lot of details that you try to anticipate—but you can’t really imagine
how hard it can be until you get in the middle of it. And Patrick and
Edith attended most of those meetings.
MA:
Yeah, yeah. And there were agendas, what we were going to talk about—the
whole thing. Then you got to do the transcribing of the tape.
JB:
Yes, I got to know what transcribing is like.
MA:
Yeah, that was the first meeting.
JB:
So I think you—I’m trying to remember how long after that—I hope that
wasn’t the cause of it—no, I’m just kidding! (Laughing) that you left.
MA:
It wasn’t that long afterwards. (Michelle left in September 1991.)
JB:
You left for England, I guess, to begin with. And you thought you were
going to come back.
MA:
Yes, we had anticipated coming back. We were going to England for a
year—September to September—and then Eric got the full-time position in
Australia. So we came back in August (1992) just to tell you that we
weren’t coming back.
JB:
To say good-bye.
MA:
To say good-bye, yeah.
JB:
Well, let’s go back a little bit now. I kind of skipped ahead to get to
the May Company. I’d like to talk a little bit more about, you know,
about what you were doing (before the move to the May Co.]. We talked
about your working for Marcie, in terms of the registrar, and we talked
about the library. But there were other things that you did, I think.
MA:
Well, I was in—I worked in the shop.
JB:
Yeah, let’s talk a little bit more about the shop, about your
experiences there.
MA:
Yeah, it was basically, I took—I wanted a full-time job in the library,
but as we know (at the time in October 1987), the funding wasn’t
actually forthcoming, but they had a shop position going and--
JB:
Who was working in the shop at that time?
MA:
John was the manager. Carol was the Assistant Manager. Mary—and then
they just had, you know, a couple of people--
JB:
But Ann Robbins and Susan Skinner had gone by then. (Robbins resigned at
the end of August 1982. John Browse was then rehired—he had worked for
The Egg and The Eye Gallery as Edith Wyle’s Assistant Director in the
seventies. Susan Skinner was his Associate Manager and then she resigned
in March 1984 to start New Stone Age.)
MA:
They had gone. Yep, they weren’t there anymore. And I had been working
with Marcie on the “Puzzles Old and New” traveling exhibition.
JB:
Oh yes, that was a huge exhibition. (It was an exhibition of mechanical
puzzles primarily from the collection of Jerry Slocum; opened November
26, 1986.)
MA:
That was a huge one, yes. And we were—and she had purchased a bunch of
hard plastic suitcases, and inside the suitcases she put foam and then
we had to cut--
JB:
Oh—to prepare it for traveling!
MA:
To prepare it for traveling--
JB:
To Japan, I believe.
MA:
Yeah, to Japan. And we had to figure out what puzzles were going into
what suitcases and then cut foam out so that they would pack into the
thing--
JB:
Talk about puzzles! (Laughing)
MA:
And the other job I had for that (traveling show) was to—some of the
puzzles, when they were on display were displayed with pieces out of
them or parts out of them—and not all of them had solutions to the
puzzles. And so, whenever there was something that was taken apart or
taken out I made diagrams on graph paper--
01:10:00
JB:
Oh, my goodness!
MA:
--about how to return them into the put-together state and how to remove
them--
JB:
And I imagine you had to really figure out how to work the puzzle in
order to--
MA:
I did. I sat there with the puzzle and tried to figure it out. And I
used graph paper and we used colored pens and pencils for--you know, it
was a really–it was very crude in a way, but it worked, and Marcie told
me later, she said when she took the exhibition down—she was in Japan in
the middle of the night—and she was really glad that I had made those
diagrams because she could put it back together to put it in the case.
And so because, (when I was volunteering for) Marcie, (she) was doing
all of this in the shop area, I got to know John and Carol pretty well
and—I think it was Beryl—Beryl was the woman who used to work in the
shop—a younger woman—and she left. She got engaged and she left to get
married and so they needed a second shop assistant, full-time. And John
and Carol asked me if I’d be interested because they knew me.
JB:
Because they’d gotten to know you.
MA:
Yeah, they knew me and they figured they’d rather have a--
JB:
Excuse me, but I just wanted to kind of set the scene. The area that
you’re talking about where you were working on the puzzles--that was
that area in back of the shop.
MA:
Yes, in back of the shop—“the cage.”
JB:
Oh—“the cage.” That’s right. That was a secure area.
MA:
And Marcie had a little room and then there was a cage with a lock in it
and everything—you know, but she had room to work in it. Anyway, we were
back in the back of the shop.
JB:
And also the shop used that area for packing things or unpacking things.
MA:
Yeah, so it was a big wide area. That’s probably why we used it because
it had space. And so they (the shop staff) decided that, rather than
advertise for the position, (they) might as well have me come and do it.
And it was also the first time the electronic cash register was going
in. And I was trained solely on the electronic cash register before I
actually started at the front of the shop. So that when they took out
the old cash register, I could train all the volunteers on how to work
the electronic cash register. And this was a major job. You know, for
them—because this was just, you know, the new electronics as everything
changes, you know, your older volunteers—they get less and less able to
cope.
JB:
Oh that’s right. A lot of the volunteers in the shop were older.
MA:
A lot of the volunteers were older women. And we lost a few of them
because of that, but then we had some 80 and 90 year olds who were still
there, so it was fine. (Laughing)
JB:
Because it was complicated--
MA:
Yes, it wasn’t that easy.
JB:
I guess, you know, electronics do get simpler as time goes on, so the
first ones were not easy.
MA:
Yeah, yeah. And they had things to do. You know, we had to do the tape
run, and putting the money in, and checking out at night became more and
more complicated, because there were more things that they were required
to do for bookkeeping in the shop than they’d ever had to do before. So
it did get a bit more complicated. So I started working in the shop and
also became their book buyer because--
JB:
Oh yes, I remember that.
MA:
Because John was tired of—I think John was tired of buying books and he
said, “Do you read?” You know, and just sort of gave me the book lists
and I started buying books for the shop and that was quite fun too. I
did that.
JB:
Yes, I remember you were excited about that.
MA:
Oh yeah, I got to buy all the books.
JB:
And it was a very attractive display.
MA:
Yes, that was great. We had a great book shop. It was really fun.
JB:
So then the museum was—well, first of all, let’s just talk a little bit
more about the experience of being in the shop. There were obviously
times when you had to wait on customers.
MA:
Oh yes.
01:15:00
JB:
And also, did you work with some of the artists whose work—well, first
of all (Laughing)—tell a little bit about what made the CAFAM shop
really different--special?
MA:
Special. Yeah, well, most of the work was all original. A lot of it was
on consignment where local artists would bring the goods in and when we
sold them, they would get paid. We had beautiful jewelry work. And then
we also had purchases of ethnic art. The mask collection was
fantastic—and baskets--and John Browse, who was the shop manager, just
had an incredible eye and talent for bringing in really interesting
crafts. And so it was all—we weren’t a gift shop. We didn’t have
anything that wasn’t made by somebody, you know, handmade. We had
contemporary craft. We had traditional craft. John went to all of the
fairs and he would buy things from Guatemala, from Africa, from Japan.
We always had displays of traditional crafts from across the
country—countries--and overseas, and then we always supported local
(contemporary craft) artists who were actually making ceramics and glass
and jewelry and just anything.
JB:
So it really functioned—that was a good way of (describing it)—you said
it wasn’t a gift shop. It really was more of a gallery.
MA:
Oh, definitely it was a gallery, and John did themed shows for every
exhibition. So anytime there was an opening, there was this special shop
show, which complemented whatever was being exhibited in the Craft and
Folk Art Museum.
JB:
I wish that the archives (i.e., the CAFAM Records, which are at UCLA
Special Collections) had more records from the shop.
MA:
The shop shows?
JB:
Unfortunately, for some reason, I don’t yet have them. Maybe John has
them.
MA:
I don’t know. I don’t think so.
JB:
But I know that the shop always did have this tradition of having its
own exhibitions.
MA:
Yeah. There was a show that had a lot of fiber work, basketry work. I
remember—one I really remember was John got together a collection of
miniature baskets.
JB:
Oh.
MA:
And everything—just baskets made of all sorts of different materials,
but the only criteria was that they were small. They were all small and
they were just lovely, just wonderful. But he—and we--had artists coming
in all the time. I mean, people would come in and they would bring
whatever they had to show. They would show--Carol bought the jewelry and
John bought everything else. And so they would show the jewelry to Carol
and she would say yes or no or, “I like this. I don’t like this.” And
the other artists would make appointments with John and a lot of times
he would—if he wasn’t sure--or even if he really liked it and just
wanted to show us—he’d bring Carol and I into the back and say, you
know, “What do you think? Will this sell?” You know, “How do you like
it?” And we just had some incredible things in that shop.
JB:
It must have been nice to be included in that process of--
MA:
Oh yes, yeah. Got to meet all the artists, got to know them. And, yeah,
it was really, really, good. It was fun.
JB:
And then sometimes didn’t the shop have objects that were related in
some way to whatever the exhibition in the museum was?
MA:
Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. If you’d had an exhibition on, well, for example,
the Guatemalan masks. I think John practically filled the shop up with
masks—and other objects from Guatemala, you know, textiles and baskets
and stuff like that. So he really worked, you know. He always needed to
know what the next exhibition was because he would go out and try and
find something to go with the exhibition. So yes.
JB:
Speaking of masks. Let’s talk a little bit about the Festival of Masks.
What do you remember? What are your earliest remembrances of the
Festival?
MA:
Well, I never got that involved in the Festival of Masks. My earliest
remembrances were all of these strange people just sort of showed up.
(Laughing)
JB:
You mean in the shop?
MA:
No, no. When the Festival was on—they were working in—they worked (in) a
part of the cottage.
JB:
Yes, that’s true. There were sort of pre-Festival workshops, is that
what you mean?
MA:
No, the staff that were putting together—you know, sort of the itinerant
staff who would come in to organize all of the Festival.
01:20:00
JB:
Yes, sometimes the library would kind of get taken over for non-library
purposes. That’s right. I almost forgot.
MA:
Yeah, so it was a whole group of people who really came in (only) when
the Festival was on—to organize it and to run it and to get it done.
There were new people that I hadn’t seen before.
JB:
In fact, I just remembered that they (the Festival staff) had an office
in the back (of the cottage)—of course.
MA:
Yeah, in the back. So that was sort of my—I guess—my involvement with
the Festival of Masks was all of these people kind of scurrying around--
JB:
That’s kind of annoying, huh? (Both laughing)
MA:
I mean it was an enormous undertaking. I went to a few of them and I
think I probably—I think I did some face painting and stuff, you know,
did a couple of—helped out in a couple of the education workshops and
things like that. But I just remembered this big crowd of people just
sort of like showing up (probably 2-3 months before the Festival) and
then they would disappear again until the next year!
JB:
This was in the cottage on Curson.
MA:
Yeah, it was quite funny.
JB:
Do you—can you talk a little bit about just what the Festival itself was
like—when you would go into the Festival?
MA:
Oh, it was just enormous. It was a carnival, I don’t know, a carnival, a
circus—it was just really, really lively. There were so many things to
do. And I really, I have to say, I couldn’t believe that it was all
organized by what is a small organization. I mean the Craft and Folk Art
Museum was a very small organization. And this event was huge. You know,
it was just huge.
JB:
Well, as you said, they did hire some people especially--
MA:
But I mean it wasn’t like they had a horde of extra people ever.
JB:
No. A lot of volunteers.
MA:
Yeah, they had a lot of volunteers and of course a lot of things, you
know, would never get done without the volunteers—
JB:
Yeah, absolutely.
MA:
But still, the organizing and putting it together and doing what was
done for the Festival was just amazing.
JB:
It was. It really was. And for a while they were having—it was a two-day
affair (at the end of October): all day Saturday, all day Sunday. But
there was also—I don’t know if you were there then, but they had for a
while a masquerade ball on the Friday (or Saturday) night.
MA:
Oh no, I wasn’t--
JB:
That was before—well, they stopped doing that (the masquerade), I think,
mainly because they just didn’t have the help to do it.
MA:
Well, I can imagine they wouldn’t.
JB:
Well, let’s see. We’ve talked about the people you worked with. Can you
talk a little bit about some of the other people? Like, well, I guess,
Edith Wyle is the one—I don’t know that you had a whole lot directly to
do--
MA:
No I didn’t have a whole lot directly to do with Edith. (Edith Wyle had
retired in 1984, but she continued to be active on the board, and came
into CAFAM on Wednesdays especially to have lunch with Patrick Ela.) I
actually, really, only got to know her well, I guess, because of the
shop, because she always shopped in the shop (Laughing).
JB:
Well, that’s important to know! (Laughing)
MA:
She was always shopping in the shop—and especially at Christmas time,
you know, and Edith got her 40% discount in the shop too. That was one
of the benefits of being the founder.
JB:
Yeah, I think nobody else got that much of a discount.
MA:
No, no one else did. She would come in to the shop. And generally, she
would just gather up a bunch of stuff and we would send her a bill or
something like that and she would just take them away. But—and so that
was really—that was really my only contact with Edith.
JB:
Well, she probably expressed her opinions about things in the shop.
MA:
Oh, she always did. Yes, we always took--Edith was somewhat gruff.
JB:
Yes, she could be.
MA:
Yes, and she could be very demanding.
JB:
Yes.
MA:
And—I don’t know if I should even say this—
JB:
You can say whatever (laughs) you want.
MA:
There was one Christmas (when) it was really, really busy. And the line
was from the front of the shop to the back of the shop by the cash
register.
JB:
Oh, my goodness.
MA:
It was very, very busy.
JB:
It was a very popular place to shop, especially at the holidays.
MA:
Yes, especially at the holidays and it was just packed. And we always
had to bring in extra people at Christmas. But Edith was at the back of
the line and she was waving, trying to get someone’s attention to go to
the front of the line. And I was at the cash register and basically I
was ringing up the sales and I had two other people that were bagging
them and that’s all I was doing was ringing up sales and taking money.
And I ignored her (both laughing). I did not have the time to deal with
it.
01:25:00
JB:
(Laughing) Well, that must have been very tense.
MA:
I’m sure she didn’t appreciate it. But there wasn’t-- I just could not—I
just couldn’t be bothered. But anyway-- Yeah, so I really didn’t have a
lot to do with her. Mainly because I think—I don’t know—cause I was
always a behind-the-scenes person. And never really wanted to be out
front and so, you know, it was fine with me. I didn’t really care and I
worked in the library and I worked with the registrar and everything was
behind the scenes. And it was only in the shop when I was, you know, at
the front desk that I was really out with the public. And my preference
is not to be out with the public. So I did not have a lot to do with
Edith. In fact, I probably saw Frank more than I saw Edith.
JB:
Really! Well, what about Frank?
MA:
I sort of liked him. I thought of him—he reminded me of a cowboy or
something. I don’t know. He just had this--
JB:
He did wear a cowboy hat, I think, and boots.
MA:
He had this gentlemanly—yeah, and boots, yeah.
JB:
I think he still thinks of himself as a rancher—and he is! (Frank Wyle,
Edith Wyle’s husband, was the founder of Wyle Laboratories, an
aeronautics testing and electronics company; he also owns a large ranch
in the Sierra foothills.)
MA:
Yeah, and he had that look about him. He really did, yeah.
JB:
He has that—I think it’s over 4,000 acres up in—
MA:
Oh, gol.
JB:
--near Mariposa. (The Wyle ranch raises prize-winning cattle.)
MA:
Yeah. And I always liked him. I mean he always--he was always nice to
me. I mean—I don’t even know if he knew who (I) was, but he was always
very polite. And when—I think it was John’s—they had a going-away party
for John in some—in Westwood—the upper story of some building—God, I
can’t remember--you’d have to ask John that. But Frank Wyle had it and
it was in this really fancy place.
JB:
Oh, I think I know (where you mean). It was on the top floor of—the
Regency Club.
MA:
That sounds like it, yeah.
JB:
They were members and—ah--go ahead.
MA:
I was invited to that and I went with Carol and John and we went to
that. And he always seemed to be very polite and he really seemed to—I
don’t know—notice people I guess. But it was probably his way. You don’t
get to be a successful businessman by not having that kind of a
personality.
JB:
Yes.
MA:
Yeah. I think I have to get some more water. (Pause in recording) And
the—well, there was one thing I really remembered about Frank and Edith
and that was the party they had at their house--
JB:
Oh.
MA:
The Christmas party they’d get together for all of the staff and the
volunteers—and that was such a special thing for them to do. And I don’t
know if all the volunteers went to it. I hope they did because it was
just really nice to go to their home and just be treated so graciously
by the two of them. It was just a really wonderful memory—those
Christmas parties.
JB:
I’m glad that you mentioned that. Do you want to just talk a bit about
what their home was like?
MA:
Oh, I can’t remember! (Laughing)
JB:
(Laughing) OK.
MA:
A lot of folk art! (Laughing)
JB:
Yes, a lot of folk art.
MA:
A lot of beautiful furniture—I mean it was just an absolutely gorgeous
place and it was just such a special thing to go to those parties. It
was really, really nice.
JB:
It seems to me in retrospect that there were always a lot of parties
going on at the museum--
MA:
Probably, yes.
JB:
--or in association with the museum.
MA:
Yeah, yeah.
JB:
There was a lot of celebration.
MA:
There was. Well, I think there were a lot of people who—I think all in
all everybody really enjoyed being with each other—as a working place,
it was a really great place. And people were always, you know, they were
celebrating birthdays, you know, going out for lunch, bringing things
in. I mean everybody was just—it was like a family atmosphere, I mean--
JB:
That’s kind of a good segué to talk about some of the other people that
you got to know there.
MA:
Well, the other volunteers of course: Judy and Lorraine in the library.
JB:
Judy Clark and Lorraine Rudoff, yes.
MA:
Yes—I was trying to remember her (Lorraine’s last) name. I still have a
pair of gloves—when I went to England (because I had been living in
California for so long), I didn’t really have any gloves and we were
going to England and it was going to be cold--
JB:
You had thrown away your Minnesota gloves (Laughing)--
01:30:00
MA:
Well, I just, you know, I just didn’t have any gloves, but Lorraine
brought me in—it was a pair of Isotoner gloves—and they were grey and
they were cotton knit on the inside and she had purchased them for when
she went over to Europe on a trip. So she gave them to me as a
going-away present (for) when I was in England and I still have those
gloves. They’re the only gloves I really wear--
JB:
So you think about her when you wear them.
MA:
I really do. I really think about her. And then there was Judy (Clark)
and what a special woman she was. I mean, you know, we’ve kept writing
and in touch with each other, off and on, as you do when you go away
through the years, but until she died, we were regular correspondents
and I saw her every time I came back here. It was—she was just a special
lady—so interesting—I mean so interested in everything--
JB:
Yes, it was quite amazing.
MA:
Yeah, she was really wonderful.
JB:
She was, I believe, 96 when she passed away this past year, but until
just the last few months, she maintained her interest in so many things.
(Judy Clark volunteered in the library from 1975-1997.)
MA:
Oh, yes, yes. And then in the shop there were a couple of—as a lot of
museums are, your volunteer group is mainly older. I mean this is just
the way a volunteer group is—and it’s still the same.
JB:
Sure, when they retire—they have time to volunteer.
MA:
Exactly—and the same is true today—and there were two older women who
worked in the shop—Thelma and Callie.
JB:
Oh yes.
MA:
Yeah, and Callie was a buyer for a department store in her youth and I
think she—she must have been 80—she was in her eighties when I first met
her and she actually volunteered until basically the day she died. I
mean we really, literally, got a phone call in the shop from her niece
because our names were in the phone book—in her phone book—to let us
know that she had passed away. But she used to live in Park La Brea.
(Park La Brea is a large apartment complex near CAFAM.)
JB:
Oh, yes.
MA:
And when they gated Park La Brea, I could no longer—that was my shortcut
to work—
JB:
That’s right. I remember
MA:
--and she gave me her key.
JB:
Oh. Oh my goodness.
MA:
She gave me a spare key so that I could open up the doors and cut--
JB:
So that you could open the gate.
MA:
--and cut through Park La Brea.
JB:
How wonderful.
MA:
Yes. And there were so many like that. Mary, who was a really young
woman, who volunteered in the shop on the weekends. She was an artist
and she was a sculptor and was going to school at Barns—oh, I can’t
remember where she was going to school, but she was a crazy woman:
short, buzz-cut hair, always earrings—you know, glasses. She had about
ten different pairs of colored glasses and she was really good. She was
really hard on the floor, you know, she didn’t stand for any nonsense.
So we had our weekend volunteers, who mainly had—mostly had jobs during
the week.
JB:
Uh-huh.
MA:
And then would come in and do a Saturday or Sunday. So we had a couple
of young girls who were volunteers. Well, I say young. They were young.
They were probably close to my age at the time, but they seem very young
now. And there were just marvelous people that volunteered at that
place.
JB:
Yes. There certainly were. There were some people on the staff that I
thought maybe you might have some special memories of. (What about)
Lorraine Trippett?
MA:
Oh, Lorraine, yes. Lorraine was—she—poor Lorraine--
JB:
She was our, the bookkeeper--
MA:
--well, more than the bookkeeper--
JB:
Well she became the--
MA:
—financial controller.
JB:
Right, right.
MA:
And Sheri (Rodius), her assistant, who was really sharp and on the ball.
She was great. I really liked Sheri. Denise—Patrick Ela’s--
JB:
Oh yes, there were a whole series of administrative assistants who were
really helpful to those of us that were (Laughing) trying to get in to
see the boss.
MA:
Yeah. And I remember Denise the most. I don’t know why I remember her--
JB:
Denise Wakeman.
MA:
Yeah, and she was great. She always knew—she had the answer to
everything.
JB:
Very organized.
MA:
If you didn’t know something, you would ask Denise and Denise would know
it. And Janet Marcus in education and the other Janet—in publicity--
01:35:00
JB:
Lubkin, yes. I think actually her name—she got married and—but Lubkin
was her maiden name.
MA:
But then we also had the boys in The Egg and The Eye restaurant--
JB:
Oh yes, I knew I wanted to ask you about (the restaurant)--
MA:
Ian Barrington, yeah, and James--
JB:
Tell about the restaurant.
MA:
Oh the restaurant. The Egg and The Eye restaurant, run when I was there
by Ian Barrington, who was an absolutely fantastic—oh, he could be
cantankerous—but he was fantastic—and he just loved food and they had a
wonderful crew. John and Carol and Ian and James and a bunch of guys
from the restaurant about once a year, we’d go to a beach and have a
clambake and cook food in the sun. John and Ian and Carol were
particularly close and went out quite often with Ian and went over to
Ian’s house and to John’s house and had parties--and then Ian got AIDS
and Ian died and it was very, very sad.
JB:
Very sad.
MA:
Really sad.
JB:
He had touched everyone’s life.
MA:
He could make you laugh. He could make you kick him—sometimes. Actually
he loved getting drunk and playing bagpipes on the roof of the Craft and
Folk Art Museum.
JB:
Oh-h-h! Now that’s something I didn’t know about!
MA:
You didn’t know about that?
JB:
How wonderful!
MA:
Ah, yes, he would, he would be there after closing. You know, drinking a
little wine and every once in a while he’d go up to the roof of the
Craft and Folk Art Museum and he’d play bagpipes and he would play.
JB:
Yes, in addition to there being a restaurant, there was a bar.
MA:
Yes, yes, there was a bar and lots of fun people came into that bar and
actually it was interesting because there was a really—there was a
symbiotic relationship between the shop and the restaurant.
JB:
Well, you were open to each other, physically open (architecturally, the
shop on the first floor was open to the mezzanine, which held the main
part of the restaurant).
MA:
Yeah, yeah, and, you know, the offices were closed at times, and so--I
worked on Sundays. I had the Sunday shift. Carol worked on Saturdays. We
split the weekend shifts. And so we (the shop staff) knew everybody in
the restaurant. On Sundays, we’d come in early and have breakfast before
you went to work. You know, you’d watch out after each other if it was
slow or something was going on, so, you know, the restaurant people and
the shop people were always very close. And there were just—there were a
lot of people who came to the restaurant and then they came down and
shopped. And one of the reasons why we didn’t want to take the shop to
the May Company (other than it would be strange to have—since the May
Company was still the May Company—it would be strange to have a shop in
the middle of the department store—at least that was the feeling) was
that people knew where the (CAFAM) shop was. It belonged on that corner
and we were just sort of afraid that no one would find us in the May
Company.
JB:
Yes, in fact, I think there were a number of people who (regularly
frequented the shop and the restaurant who) were not even that aware of
the museum. They would come in just either to go to the restaurant or
the shop or both--
MA:
--or the shop, yeah--
JB:
--and were kind of surprised if you mentioned something (about) the
gallery. (Both laughing) But since you brought it up about the shop not
moving to the May Company—of course the restaurant couldn’t move to the
May Company.
MA:
Yes, yes, and (for) the restaurant (it) was the end.
JB:
There was never any question about that, so it did close forever when we
moved to the May Company. And Ian was there—I don’t know just when he
got sick. But he did work through the end (through the closing of the
restaurant).
MA:
And that was really sad to have the restaurant close.
JB:
Just talk a little bit about what made the restaurant so special—besides
the people—of course the people were wonderful.
MA:
Besides the people? The omelettes! And even in the—well, let’s see, I
was there (in the) late eighties into the nineties—when eggs weren’t
really getting a good--
JB:
--a good rap?
MA:
When no one was eating eggs—supposedly. Wonderful omelettes. I don’t
know how many different kinds of omelettes there were, a-a-h.
JB:
I loved the African one, which was kind of a lamb curry.
MA:
Oh, I loved all of them--
JB:
Yeah—they were great! (Both laughing)
MA:
The food was fantastic! And, actually, the receptions for all of the
openings—because they were catered by The Egg and The Eye—were
fantastic, except when Ian got angry about not having the bill paid and
he put out crackers and cheese (both laughing)!
01:40:00
JB:
Which happened occasionally.
MA:
Yes, it did happen occasionally. But the food was fantastic. It was just
really—it was good food. People had been going there for years and were
going there until it closed. I mean, it still could have continued. I
mean, it made it through the “egg crisis.” People still ate omelettes.
JB:
Yes. I don’t know if you had this feeling before you left L.A., but in
experiencing—well, you left before we moved back into the (5814
Wilshire) building.
MA:
Yeah, I did.
JB:
And we were not able to have a restaurant (there)—well, it’s a question
as to whether it was a matter of not able or--
MA:
Oh, OK.
JB:
--or not wanting to—but for whatever reason, the new configuration of
the museum did not include a restaurant.
MA:
Yeah.
JB:
And, in fact, there really is no—to this day, still—there is no good
place inside--
MA:
That’s true, yes.
JB:
--the building for a restaurant. And I—it took a while for me and I
think for others that worked at the museum to realize what an integral
part--
MA:
Yes.
JB:
--of the museum the restaurant was.
MA:
And actually—I’m sure you see it here too—I mean I know we see it in
Australia—any museum has a café and a restaurant. It is just a—it is so
important because when you get the people that go into the café, then,
OK, they might just be walking past an exhibition, but they might see
something that they like. The shop, the restaurant, the gallery, it all
goes together and it all brings in people that would normally—could care
less about going to a museum. They may be just going to a—you know,
going to have something to eat, or they might be going to buy a gift at
a special place because they know they have really interesting and
unusual merchandise, but those three have to be together. And the Craft
and Folk Art Museum—that’s what they started out as—all those years ago.
JB:
Well, it was, of course, The Egg and The Eye gallery (which opened in
1965) and the restaurant was part of the basic concept from the very
beginning. But it was more than the average museum restaurant,
especially at that time.
MA:
Well, yeah, especially at that time. Well, I think it would be more than
the average museum restaurant now.
JB:
Yes.
MA:
I mean, a lot of museums just want the cafeteria-type style, just to be
able to give their customers a cup of coffee or a sandwich--
JB:
This was a “sit-down” restaurant.
MA:
It was a “sit-down” restaurant. It was fancy. It was up-scale. You know,
I mean, you would, you could get dressed--people got—for Sunday brunch—I
mean, this was a special place to go for Sunday brunch was The Egg and
The Eye (restaurant).
JB:
And yet it wasn’t expensive. It wasn’t cheap, but it wasn’t high-end in
that respect.
MA:
Yeah, yeah. But, no, it was known. I mean it was one of the better
places to go.
JB:
Well, I’m really glad that you remembered to talk about that because
that was a very essential part of the experience. So tell us, now, what
you’ve been doing since you went to Australia.
MA:
Since I went to Australia--
JB:
In the next—six or seven minutes!
MA:
OK.
JB:
Unfortunately—this is just an aside—Michelle won’t be able to—we won’t
be able to have another session with her cause she’s going back to
Australia--
MA:
Unless the project lasts for a bit longer and then we can have Part II.
JB:
Oh, OK. (Both laughing)
MA:
If you’re still doing it the next time I come back, we can continue--
JB:
Maybe I will (both laughing), but I think it would be good to know (now)
what you’ve been doing (in Australia) because it’s very relevant to what
you were doing at The Craft and Folk Art Museum (before you left).
MA:
Well, I sort of started doing the same thing in Australia that I started
doing here. (It) was when we moved to a town—my husband (Eric
Livingston) got a job at a university—in a really small town. I (had)
enjoyed my museum work (at CAFAM) so well that the first thing I did was
volunteer at the art museum in town. (The New England Regional Art
Museum in Armidale, New South Wales.) And luckily we had a really,
really good art museum with a fantastic director, exciting programs, and
(I) volunteered for a number of years and then got project jobs, writing
grants mostly.
01:45:00
JB:
You wrote some of those grant proposals?
MA:
I wrote lots of those grants. That was one of my basic—one of my jobs.
And I worked there for eight years. And during that time I wrote a
number of grant proposals to start a museum of printing and I was the
collection manager for the museum of printing.
JB:
That came about because the museum had received a gift of a press—a
printing press?
MA:
No, it came (about) because the director saw a collection of printing
presses and it was being offered. It was going to go to scrap metal
because nobody wanted it and he couldn’t—he was a history major in his
background. And he just couldn’t stand to see this go away. So he came
back, talked to us at the museum, and said, “What do you think?” And we
said, “Ah, we’ll try it.” And so we started writing grants and proposals
and we got a quarter of a million dollars to build the museum of
printing.
JB:
Which was an annex to the--
MA:
The (Art) Museum was built on top of a bunch of pylons and underneath
was basically open, and so we enclosed the underneath area of the museum
to make a museum of printing with printing presses and
turn-of-the-century—from the turn of the twentieth century—so it’s 1850
to about 1950—all equipment and stuff, set up the displays and
everything like that. And then I left that job and was starting a little
museum business with a couple of friends, where we would offer our
services to anybody who wanted help cataloging or (with) registration or
writing grants or anything. And the university, where my husband works--
JB:
That’s the univ--
MA:
University of New England in Armidale, New South Wales, Australia. They
have a new vice-chancellor—the equivalent of a chancellor in the
states—who was interested in art, and for the very first time in the
university’s history (they opened in 1939), (they) advertised for an art
collection manager.
JB:
They had an art collection, then?
MA:
Oh, yeah, they had an art collection. But it was just sort of—no one
really took care of it—they had a couple of times where the secretary to
the registrar looked after it.
JB:
Oh, so there was a registrar.
MA:
Well, no, it’s not a registrar—it’s—the registrar is sort of the
bookkeeper at the university--
JB:
Oh you’re talking about the university registrar!
MA:
--a different registrar. Yeah, the university registrar.
JB:
Right, right.
MA:
So his secretary looked after it for a while. But mostly it just sort of
was not looked after. And the vice-chancellor and his wife are art
enthusiasts and collectors. So they decided they needed an art
collection manager, advertised for a full-time position, and much to my
surprise—because I still don’t have those (art or museum) degrees and
credentials (Laughing)—they hired me!
JB:
But all of your experience--
MA:
Yeah, they hired experience over degrees. In a university situation,
it’s not really that usual. I mean usually they like their pieces of
paper but I did get the job. So I’m very happily the—what is the
equivalent of a registrar for the University of New England art
collection.
JB:
What is the collection like and how big is it?
MA:
It’s got about 1,300 pieces. There’s probably about—a fourth of that are
actual paintings, original artwork. About half of those are actually
valuable. They’re mostly Australian artists, dating from (the) late
1800s to 1930 and then there is sort of a brief period where they didn’t
get any art work and then we get into the 1960s and 70s, where they’ve
got a lot of the big, abstract, you know, canvases. There’s a few of
those.
JB:
Uh-huh, minimalists or--
MA:
A lot of prints. And quite a few reproductions. But some of the
reproductions, I think, are valuable because they’ve actually been there
for 50-60 years.
JB:
So, they have historic interest.
01:50:00
MA:
They have historic value. And I’ve been sort of teaching the
administration about their art collection and just saying (that) “it may
not be valuable in (terms of) the names of the artists that you have or
the types of work that you have, but the art collection is another
history of the university, because it’s all given by students, alumni,
people associated with the university, people in town.” I mean, it’s
just—the whole history of the donors is the history of the university.
So, they’ve—they’re learning to look at it in a little bit different
light (Laughing).
JB:
It sounds like you’re also doing a little bit more “front-of-house,”
rather than behind the scenes too, than you used to do.
MA:
I am a little bit more, yes, I’ve had to give a couple of lectures and,
yeah. And the people up there (in the administration) know me, you know.
JB:
Sure.
MA:
Yeah, so it is a bit more front of the house, but basically my job is
still getting that collection on the computer, describing it, finding
the provenance, and taking care of it, making sure it’s hung properly,
getting the things out of those awful frames that some of it’s in—and
that’s my job and I really enjoy it.
JB:
Well, I’m really glad that you have found this wonderful place for
yourself there, since it looks like you’re not going to come back to
L.A. anytime soon.
MA:
Well, we would like to, but--
JB:
I know you would.
MA:
--but we don’t have a choice about that.
JB:
And I’m glad that the Craft and Folk Art Museum was able to play a part
in--
MA:
Oh, definitely!
JB:
--giving you some of those experiences. It certainly was good for the
Craft and Folk Art Museum to have you--
MA:
Well, see now, I have my artists bio file now. And I’ve got my library
that I’m starting (both laughing). So I learned a lot. I mean I learned
from Marcie, from you. I mean it’s just all come together where I can do
a whole variety of things and it’s just because of, you know, what--the
experience I got at the Craft and Folk Art Museum—and then followed by
the New England Regional Art Museum.
JB:
Well, I thank you very, very much for taking the time from your
relatively short visit here--
MA:
Yes, unfortunate, yeah--
JB:
--to talk about all of these different aspects of the Craft and Folk Art
Museum that you were involved with. It’s a real contribution to this
oral history.
MA:
I hope so.
JB:
Thank you.
MA:
You’re welcome. End of Session