A TEI Project

Interview of Clifford McClain

Contents

1. Transcript

1.1. Session 1A ( July 10, 2006)

STEVENSON
Hey, good morning. I'm starting an interview -- do you want to get the door? Can we --
MCCLAIN
Oh, yes, yes. OK.
EDUARDO
Ready to go? Full crew today?
MCCLAIN
Eduardo.
EDUARDO
(inaudible). Can I get somebody a water?
STEVENSON
That's fine. Good morning. I'm starting an interview with Cliff McClain on Monday, July 10. First of all, I'd like to ask you about when and where you were born, about your parents and siblings, your family background.
MCCLAIN
OK. Well, I was born in Tulsa, Oklahoma, March 31, 1940. And so that my kids might here this or see this, it was:10:00 in the morning, so Claudia, it was not April Fool's Day. (laughter) I am the son of my father, Reverend C.C. McClain, and my mother Juanita Stephens. They were not married; they didn't get married. My mother moved to California from Tulsa, Oklahoma, and she's now with my stepfather, Ivory Scott, and have five children, five girls. My father went back to Louisiana, and he got married, and he had one girl, Claudette, and three boys, John, Cliff, and Asriel. So altogether, there are ten of us. My sister Claudette is just a couple of years younger than me, and then John, I think, is a year or so younger than her, and Cliff is a couple of years younger than John, and then Asriel was way down there; he is probably about seven or eight years younger than Cliff. Now, my oldest sister, Jessye, is 13 years younger than me, and then there's Nita, who's a year or so behind Jessye, Mikeal, who is a year or so behind Nita, and then Barbara, a year or so behind her, and then Merri, who is two years older than my oldest daughter, Karen. And then -- you want me to go on to my children?
STEVENSON
Well, I'd like, if you can, tell me something of what you know about your grandparents.
MCCLAIN
OK. My grandfather, Mike Stephens, was in construction. It is said that he was the first to make those -- you know how they have those stone fronts? He developed that. Didn't patent it, so we didn't get rich from it. (laughter) But he also worked in a brickyard, they made bricks, and he came to California, I guess in the late '50s, I think. Mid to late '50s. And he was there in Oklahoma; he was born in -- well, the house that they lived in was on the line -- as a matter of fact, this year my mother and I are going down to see if we can find it. It was right on the Georgia -- I guess the Georgia/Mississippi or Georgia/Alabama -- whichever state line, you know. And so we're going to go down to see. He always said that the front of the house was in Georgia, and the back of the house was in Mississippi or Alabama. (laughter) So we want to go see that. My grandmother was really the pillar of the family. I mean, she left Oklahoma and went to Stockton, California, and as I grew up, I spent a year in elementary, a year in junior high, and a year in high school in Stockton. Because every time things got a little lean here, we'd go to grandma's. And she was the place where we all kind of came to, it was sort of the center. So on my father's side, I only knew of my grandfather, and I went to a funeral, my Aunt Belle, who was a pillar of the community down in Ruston, [Louisiana], which is right outside of Grambling [State University]. And she was an entrepreneur, and very well known and widely respected, and at her funeral, 1962 -- it was the first time I had gone to Louisiana. And I remarked, after the funeral, to my aunt, I said, you know, I know Aunt Belle was a revered in the black community, 'cause she'd done a lot to help with Grambling, and she was trying to do this that and the other, I said, "But it was really nice of all those white people to come." And she said, "What white people?" I said, "Those white people there." She says, "Those are not white people; those are your relatives." And to top it off, there was a picture on the mantle of this gentleman, this impressive-looking gentleman, and I'm not just saying that because he was my grandfather, but he was -- I saw him and I said, "Wow, who is this?" And I said, "Who is that white man?" She said, "That's no white man; that's your grandfather.But anyway, my grandfather was a preacher; he was an entrepreneur; he had -- as a matter of fact, I'll say, I had a platinum spoon -- I was born with a platinum spoon that was snatched from me before I got here, because my grandfather owned a lot of land, he had a sawmill, it was said that he always bought two limousines: one for the kids and one for him and his wife. (laughter) And he, you know, was a man of means. But the irony of it was that he had a falling-out with a gentleman, white man, and the white man had done something, and my grandfather roughed him up a bit, and he came back and waited in the bushes and shot my grandfather in the back. And the guy who did this, his brother became the executor of the property, because I think either the youngsters were too young to assume control or something, or as I understand it, my father had an older brother who was a bit wayward. And so they wined and dined him, and somehow they got much of the property. But my father being underage, they forged his name, so when he got older, he was able to come back and get his piece of the property back. And we still have it, it's still in the family.And my grandmothers on my fathers side -- I just know of the first Mrs. McClain, who was -- I forget what they call them, a Beecher or something -- there was some term they used, it was a very dark, Indian -- like Indian/African mix. She was dark, but she had this long black hair. So most of the older McClains, my father's older siblings, were brown-skinned, long-haired, straight-haired types. My father's mother, I don't know very much about her, but she had some children as well, and they were of a lighter hue. But I never really knew that much about her, sort of a legendary talk about our first -- (laughter).Now, as far as my parents, my mother, she still lives; she is 87 years old. She is a pillar in her community; I mean, I run into people all the time that tell me, "I see your mother, she still gettin' around," because she walks to church, her church is about five or six blocks from the house. She goes to Ascension Catholic Church; she walks up there for Mass most every day. She's very active in the community, she's always been a help. As a matter of fact, she got me involved in the adult library reading program, teaching adults to read; she's done that for years. She -- I remember when Maxine [Waters] first ran, she had us all out to walking, campaigning. And she's just been one of those civic leaders, not upfront but always there. And to the extent that people really recognize it. She's been my best buddy. And a mom, she gets the respect, but we do have that close relationship.
STEVENSON
All right. A couple of things. One, in terms of your mother's activism, which is what I think it is, did she set the stage with that with you when you were young? I mean, if you can -- looking back on it.
MCCLAIN
Well, I think my father -- since I wasn't around my father, and a lot of my family, especially my Aunt Lena and my Uncle John, they used to tell me tales about my dad. My dad was an activist. I didn't know much about my dad. As a matter of fact, the one thing that really bothered me for awhile was the fact that my dad had so much knowledge that I didn't tap into. I've always admired George Washington Carver, for what he did and his meek manner. I don't know if I could have been that. You know, if you have it, flaunt it. I don't know if I could have been that mild-mannered (laughter) and accomplishing the things that he did. I mean, he's done so much -- this country owes him a great deal.But I found out, when I went to my dad's funeral, went to his church, and there was a Shreveport Herald or whatever the big paper is in Shreveport, and it had this front-page article on my dad. And I found, in reading the article, that he had jumped on a train and went to Tuskegee [University] to go to school, and the first person he ran into was George Washington Carver, and he became an assistant, because he was an agricultural major. So that -- I just said, "Wow, I missed that opportunity to really --" My mother has instilled in us this need to share with our children and our grandchildren, so we have family reunions, we have grandchildren's day, we have a lot of different things that we do as a family. We practice Kwanzaa; we do all of these things that kind of really bring the family along. And -- which is good, because a lot of times, much of your history and much of the strength of that family fabric is lost because you don't pass these things on. So that's why I'm glad you're doing what you're doing, so as a village that's raising this child, we come together.
STEVENSON
OK. Tell me something about your grandmother and her values. You mentioned she played a real integral role as you were coming up.
MCCLAIN
Oh, Jessie Kern -- because she was married to Barney Kern, who was a contractor up in Northern California -- a real quiet man who didn't say much, but when he spoke, you heard him. Not only because of that booming bass voice, but you knew he wasn't playing, he had a smile, but you took him seriously. And everybody, adults, white folks, everybody seemed to take Barney seriously. But anyway, my grandmother was -- she was that old school, go get me a switch (laughter) type grandmother, and if you wasn't dead, you went to church. And she had the last say. And she taught some real strong lessons; I mean, she truly was a remarkable lady. I remember I had this friend Petey, we were playing sandlot football, and I hit Petey, and as a result of my blocking him or tackling him or whatever, he broke his arm. And my grandmother said, "Now Petey's folks are struggling like all the rest of us, and you have caused them some harm. So all those new school clothes you have in there -- you and Petey are about the same size; you're going to have to give them to Petey, because his mother had to spend some money on the arm, deal with Petey's injury." And that bothered me at first, but then as I looked back on it, I think it kind of helped me to be more appreciative of other people, and more aware of my actions and how they might affect others. And she taught me a good lesson on that one. And really may have helped me to really be the person that I am, because I am concerned about other people. I feel good about the fact that I have been able to work and help other people, as well as be blessed as I have been blessed, as far as my family is concerned, although there are a lot of people that I've come in contact with, such as your father, who have given me advice and shown me examples of being concerned and caring for other people.
STEVENSON
Let's go back to maybe your elementary school years when you were young. Could you tell me something about your neighborhood, your neighbors --
MCCLAIN
My neighborhoods. (laughter) Well, we started out on Vernon [Avenue] and Morgan [Street]. And -- well, my mother came to California in the late '40s -- no, mid-'40s, because she came before the end of the war, because she worked at Douglass Aircraft, and she was in Long Beach. So she left Tulsa, [Oklahoma], because she worked there, and then there was an opportunity to come west. Well, she had an opportunity to go to either Chicago, [Illinois] or Los Angeles, [California], so she chose Los Angeles -- well, actually, it was Long Beach. And you know how kids are; they want to be where their mommy is.So I stayed in Oklahoma with my grandfather for a couple of years, and then I had this opportunity, or my mother decided, I guess after the war, in '45, she says, come on. But coming here, she wasn't quite as stable as she needed to be, so I stayed with some McClains, my Aunt Lena and my Uncle John, who are brother and sister as a matter of fact, but they had a real strong relationship as brother and sister. They were on Morgan and Vernon, had a theatre right there, and so I remember living there and going to -- starting out at Ascot [Elementary School]. And then we moved over to 53rd Street, which was where my Uncle John stayed, and he had a house right next to -- a little shotgun house, it's still there, as a matter of fact, on 53rd and Wadsworth [Avenue]. And then I left -- when I went to 53rd and Wadsworth, I went to 49th Street, second grade, started in second grade.I still relish the opportunity to interact with kids that I grew up with in that neighborhood. I run into them from time to time, and it's really like a family reunion. 'Cause we were really a family; I mean, you know, this gang stuff, we had a thing -- if you lived on 53rd Street, others in the neighborhood had your back. It wasn't like we were out going -- looking to beat up anybody, but if you got into a little hassle, I had your back. We just -- that was sort of -- really a village. And like I said, when I see people that -- and it was more than 53rd; it was 53rd, 54th [Street], 55th [Street], 56th [Street], all of those kids right in that area, we just all kind of met in the Delgados, and the Swaiters, and -- let's see, what was Betty's? -- the Johnsons. Oh, it was just a whole bunch of folks that we just all came together. And then it went on down to I guess 51st [Street], the Hendersons and the Grosses, I think they were on like 48th [Street] and 49th [Street], and we just really -- just one big family.
STEVENSON
So -- so this is in the '40s, like late '40s?
MCCLAIN
Yeah. This was like -- I went to 49th Street in 1947, and I graduated in '51. I went to [George Washington] Carver Junior High for a year. Then we moved up to Stockton, stayed in Stockton for a year and came back to LA, and went to [Thomas Alva] Edison Junior High. Now, my group at Edison, which includes [Los Angeles County] Supervisor Mike [Michael D.] Antonovich, the late Paul Winfield, Congressman Henry Waxman -- it was just a bunch of -- Larry Doby -- I mean, not Larry -- Winston Doby. Oh, just so many.
STEVENSON
OK. A stellar class. So it sounds like your neighborhood in Los Angeles was very mixed.
MCCLAIN
Mm-hmm. And as a matter of fact, about two weeks ago -- wait a minute, let's see, I hope there's someone -- well, that's OK. The -- about -- let's see, when was it? It was around the end of -- no, it was around the first of July, we had a reunion, because we do this about maybe three, four times a year, we come together, that group from the Edison/Russell/Fremont area. Because many of the youngsters, Mike Antonovich and Del Rosario and Ruíz -- many of them, they went to Russell [Junior High School], and then on from Russell, they came to Edison. And I came to Edison that last year, in the ninth grade. And Mike and some of the others that went to Russell just kind of kept in touch, so it's just kind of now expanded to where -- I think we had maybe 30 people at the last gathering, and we usually meet at Mike's office and just kind of get together. We've done some things -- we went back to Edison to do a Career Day; we tried to assist the principal in some way, but I think she was a bit intimidated by the group. And so we wanted to do something; Fremont's been having this difficulty, and that group is black and brown, but it's like family. And so we thought maybe we could help to deal with some of the black and brown conflict, but we -- also, we haven't found a way yet to deal with the school in the manner the school wants to be dealt with, I guess. (laughter)
STEVENSON
I see. OK. Going back to your neighborhoods, plural, it sounds like the interrelationships were harmonious. I mean, any racial tensions at all? And also, like I said, going back to your elementary school, near or in your own neighborhood?
MCCLAIN
I don't recall much of a problem in elementary school. Except for in Stockton; I do remember my first real conflict, which was in the first grade. I had this little girlfriend, she was white, and we were really buddies. And there was some white kids that had a problem with that. And so they confronted us, and I won't forget this probably never (laughter). I mean, I've forgiven, but I haven't forgotten, you know what I mean? But she sided with them; she said, "Well, OK, if you're upset about me being with him..." and she was kind of... And that really hurt my feelings. It wasn't the male/female thing; it was the friend thing. And it really, really upset me. That was one thing.And I remember also, back in that same period of time, we lived by the railroad tracks, and there was me and mainly the Mexicans, and I really thought I was a Mexican, I guess, because we just -- we were -- and there was one incident where there was one kid who drew a distinction, but it wasn't nearly as -- it wasn't a confrontational thing. But there was -- I understood there was a difference, but like I said, it wasn't a confrontational kind of thing; it's just that there was a difference. But then later on, in junior high school, we had a race riot in Stockton. And the Latinos and the blacks -- well, the blacks were -- what happened was there was some people who came in from Oklahoma, called them the Okies, and they had a problem with the harmonious environment, because -- I mean, there was no tension, it was like -- me and my friend John, there was these two girls, one was Italian and one was Irish or whatever, and we used to just -- I mean, junior high school, so we used to talk and such. And I think the girls were a lot faster than we were (laughter), we were just talking. And I just remember the different relationships that I had; I had this teacher, Miss Sweet, she was old San Francisco money: red hair and gold teeth. And -- because I think there was something about that San Francisco society, about having gold teeth or something, because I think every tooth in her mouth was gold. I think if these youngsters really understood where some of this came from, they might be able to kind of let it loose. (laughter) But anyhow, Miss Sweet, I never thought of her as being racist; I just thought she didn't like me, you know what I mean? It never -- the racism piece never came in.But then we had this flare-up, and I remember that white folks was -- they were coming at us pretty heavy, and the Latinos and Mexicans came, but they came prepared; that's the first time I'd ever seen motorcycle chains used as a weapon, and the little girls would have the knives in their hair and stuff. And so when they came to our aid, it appeared that maybe white folks weren't going to be able to have their way, so then, I remember, the state troopers came in to guard us, going back and forth. And when we were the prey, it was like, "Well, you know..." but then when it seemed like, "Well, uh-oh, some of these white kids might get hurt," then they responded. And truly, they -- some of them did get hurt, because our Mexican friends who came to our aid, they came ready.
STEVENSON
So the whites, or the Okies, as you termed them -- looking back, it seems that they were importing racism from where they came from, trying to import it into this harmonious --
MCCLAIN
Right. So -- and you know, when I look back, I really kind of felt badly about it, because being from Oklahoma, I didn't recall -- well, you know, when I was Oklahoma, I was five years old when I left, so there was all good feelings for me there, and never really understanding anything about racism or anything, and I'm sure from 1940 to 1945, there was certainly plenty of it, but I was never exposed to it. And then to have them do this, and I was really an Okie; I pull for Oklahoma as a football team. So it kind of really bothered me a bit that these folks -- but then when I really looked at the history of what happened at Tulsa and all of that stuff, I can understand it.
STEVENSON
Yeah, that was going to be my next question, if you could -- being from Oklahoma, did you speak to either the Tulsa race riot, or any -- there were a lot of all-black towns in Oklahoma --
MCCLAIN
Yeah, we -- but I mean, there was like -- you never thought of it as being that, but it was; I remember I had an uncle who -- I think he was in Beggs, [Oklahoma] or Muskogee, [Oklahoma] or something, and he had a lot of cows and stuff, and I used to love to go there, because they lived real good. And then I didn't know anything personally about the Tulsa situation; I learned about that later in life. But in looking at that, it was something that I thought this country really owes black people an apology, because they have treated us real badly in certain situations. Not only -- I mean, when you look at here in California -- what's that place over there near Bakersfield?
STEVENSON
Allensworth, [California].
MCCLAIN
Yeah, Allensworth; it's like, how could you, you know what I mean? Goodness gracious.
STEVENSON
Right. Let me ask you, when you were a child, when would be the first time you ever had race or racism discussed in your home?
MCCLAIN
In my home.
STEVENSON
Or was it?
MCCLAIN
No, as a matter of fact, my mother and I had a conversation later in life -- when I say later in life, I must have been -- I was probably going to Carver, so it must have been probably about the seventh grade, so I had to be 11, 12 years old. And I asked her, "Why didn't you say anything to me about these white folks?" And she said to me that, "I figured you'd figured it out for yourself." She said, "I didn't want you to draw any conclusions based on my experiences; I figured you would see it for yourself." And I certainly did. (laughter) And I still didn't -- but then I understand my mother, as I step back and look at it, that she would do something like that, you know, want to be fair and impartial, you know. But like I told my son recently, and he's 28 years old, I told him that there are things that he will experience and things that he has experienced that he has to experience on his own, but whenever I saw the opportunity, or felt I could, I tried to tell him what point I ought to show him some things, not to try to give him a biased opinion, but just based on the facts of my life. And hopefully it helped, although sometimes he didn't seem like he heard me; he had to figure it out for himself. And that wasn't on race, but it was just on life in general.
STEVENSON
OK. What effect would you say having lived in multiracial neighborhood, having multiracial circles of friends, has had on your own views on race, racism?
MCCLAIN
Well, I think a lot of what happened to me as a young person gave me almost a superiority complex, because -- I mean, I tell people, they say -- they refer to us as being "culturally --" what was the term they used? -- there's a term that they used, I can't really think of it -- impoverished, in a sense, you know what I mean? And I had -- I woke up to Dorothy Donegan playing the piano, you know? I mean, I was on Central Avenue, and all that stuff that was going on -- I mean, culturally, if anything, I felt I was a billionaire. I don't know, I just -- I remember there were times when we'd go over to the [Los Angeles] Coliseum or something, because -- I had my time in the street; my mom, being a single mom, she couldn't see everywhere, although at one point, I really thought she was clairvoyant. They had a real network. But they'd jump on some little white boys and take their coats or something, and I would kind of get in and say, "OK, you got the coat, leave him alone. You don't have to beat 'em up." So I was always the kind of wanting to be fair kind of guy. And I really wouldn't participate in the negative stuff. I might be there, and that's the thing I think that kind of kept me out of jail, was that I had this ability to see stuff coming, and know when to say -- you might say I'm chicken, but I'm gone; I think you've crossed the line --
STEVENSON
(inaudible)
MCCLAIN
Yeah. (laughter) There were a number of times, the police would come knockin' at my mom's door, and I'd be sitting there, and somebody may have given my name up, because I might have been with them before we crossed Central Avenue, and then when I saw where they were heading and what they were up to -- "See y'all later." (laughter) And I might have even been involved in the conversation that got us to that point, but I thought you know I was kidding. But that's one of the things that -- I know, sometimes there's been a divine intervention that kept me out of jail. (laughter) But I've been -- I'm able to say that I don't have a record.
STEVENSON
OK. Can you tell me about the role of religion in your upbringing?
MCCLAIN
The role of religion. I think that's why I'm still here, because my grandmother, as I said before, she used to make us sit on those little hard benches at Second Baptist Church in Stockton, [California] and listen to that boring preacher. (laughter) But it was there, you know, and then later in life, we came to stay on 53rd Street, there was a little church on 52nd place, Calvary Baptist Church, between Central [Avenue] and Wadsworth [Avenue], and we started going to that church when we moved on 53rd Street, and there came a minister, young man, real young man, who was a friend of my father's, Manuel Scott. And Reverend Scott just -- I don't know, there was just something, because we had a lot of preachers who came in and they said very little; they did a lot of hooping and hollering and stuff. But Manuel, the priest -- Manuel would send you to the dictionary. This man was remarkable, and he made it all make sense to me.And so I, at the age of nine, I joined church, and I believed, truly believed what was being taught, and it -- like they say, you train up a child -- and I've been -- I've made some twists and turns, even as a Nationalist, I couldn't turn loose my religion, you know what I mean? Because people would down the church, and they'd talk -- but then I would think about the people I came in contact with at Calvary Baptist, because my mother was a very attractive young lady, but the help I saw her getting wasn't men trying to get next to her; it was families helping a young single mother. And I mean, I saw all the good stuff, so that really stuck with me. I mean, it sticks with me today it's like, that's what I feel we ought to be about. And I think -- and this probably is after -- but I think that had we, during that real militant black period, stayed closer to the church, there'd have been -- and I think Malcolm [X] really had a spiritual sense. He may have said Allah, but I really believe that he had a deeper religious understanding. It's like I heard Minister [Louis] Farrakhan speak of Jesus in a very -- I consider to be a correct way. And it really kind of shocked me a little bit. But when he said it, he said it in a way that he wanted folks to know; he said, "I'm not crazy." But he did, he mentioned Jesus as the son of God, and I said, "Wow." So we do have more in common than may meet the eye.And so I'm saying that as we, us Nationalists [HOLDS UP FIST], if we had kept more in tune and intact with our religious upbringing -- one of the things that we wouldn't have done, is we wouldn't -- the drugs would not have been around. The corruption would have not been as prevalent. And we could have truly come together and done the things that we needed to do. Maybe there was just a little bit too much anger involved for that to happen, because we were angry; I know I was angry. Should have been more love for those that we -- and there was love, I mean; we love black people, but we didn't have to hate white people. We could have done without some of that negative energy. Because, you know, when you think about it, as you get older and you kind of look back, I mean, we've done some dastardly things ourselves. Like Jesus said, you know, cast the first stone, if you've never done anything wrong. So we all would have had to put our rocks down. (laughter)
STEVENSON
Let me ask you what emphasis your mother, your grandmother, and other adult relatives places on education when you were coming up.
MCCLAIN
Well, they placed -- my grandmother -- I think my grandmother looked at more getting a good job, because -- I don't know how much education Barney had, but he had skills, he had sellable skills, and he was able to amass quite a bit. They lived real good. But he had the skill, he was a contractor. And so her thing was probably more, "Get a job." My mother -- education was key to her -- I know my sisters, she tried to push them all -- like my older sister, she got her Master's; she went to USC [University of Southern California] and got her Master's. She went straight on through school. The next sister, she wanted to go to work; she went to Cal Poly [California State Polytechnic University, Pomona] because that's where my older sister went -- and when I say older, she was 13 years younger than me, but Nita went to Cal Poly for a year and came back home and said, "Mama, save your money; I want to go to work." She went to work for the County, she's still working for the County. She's a supervisor -- I mean, she's worked her way up. But school, per se, was not her thing at that point in time. My mother went back to school, she became an LVN [Licensed Vocational Nurse].So she -- I think education, to her -- and I think with my mom, her thing was: read, study, investigate for yourself. I mean, you can do it formally in education, but do it. So -- now, my father, that was -- because he wanted me to go to school, he wanted me to go to school. And then I had an Aunt, my Aunt Ruth and my Uncle George; they really pushed the education thing. They were like, "You've got to go to school." They wanted me to be a lawyer, because they said I'd argue with anybody. (laughter) So there was education -- emphasis placed on education by folks in the family around me. Like I said, my mother, her thing was, "You need to go to school, you need to, but do what you have to do."And I tried the school thing; as a matter of fact, I was on my way to Grambling, and my girlfriend at the time got pregnant, and as I look back on it, sometimes I think her family really faked me out, because they seemed to treat her so badly I couldn't just leave her to that, so I came back, and we got married. Probably if her family had been a bit more supportive, I would have just went on to school, and figured we'd work it out, but I didn't want to leave her to have to deal with that, fend for herself, so to speak. And sometimes I -- I really -- there are times when I should have gone back and didn't, and I look at it, and I say, wow, that's an opportunity missed. And -- but then I've never let it get in the way. You know what I mean? It's like if I want to do something, I try to do it. And it's like this particular position that I'm in now, you're supposed to have a degree, but then I had so much experience that they counted that. I know in the early '70s when we were making the changes, we institutionalized the experience factor, so that it would take -- have the same weight as education.
STEVENSON
OK. Can you tell me something about your recollections, remembrances, of Central Avenue? And I guess this would have been probably the tail end of its heyday.
MCCLAIN
Yeah. It was really the tail end of its heyday, because -- I remember, there was a club -- when we lived on Morgan, there was a club on Long Beach [Boulevard] that I could hear the music -- I mean, it was jammin', jammin', jammin'. There was a lot of things going on on Central Avenue, but being a kid, I never got a chance to really go down there. So later on in life, when I was able to just kind of go where I pleased, all of that had dissipated, except for the Lincoln Theatre. My mother used to take me up there, I saw a lot of good entertainment at the Lincoln Theatre.
STEVENSON
Like who?
MCCLAIN
Lionel Hampton. What was it, Johnny Otis. Oh, wow. Just so many folks. But those were the prominent, because they were always there. And just remembering such good music. And they had the Million Dollar Theatre downtown; I don't remember exactly where it was, but I know it was downtown, we went to some things down there. And then I remember the pool hall, Mr. Specks Pool Hall.
STEVENSON
Mr. Specks?
MCCLAIN
Uh-huh. And one day, I said -- I kept telling myself that I was going to go down and get a picture of Mr. Specks sitting in front of the pool hall; I just wanted to have that picture. But I never got it, he passed away before I did it.
STEVENSON
And Specks is spelled --
MCCLAIN
Like Specks, he had freckles, and they just called him Mr. Specks.
STEVENSON
Oh, OK. And it was located --
MCCLAIN
On 52nd Place -- between 53rd and 52nd Place on Central. Specks Pool Hall. A lot went on that pool hall. And then there was Al's Store, on the corner of 53rd and Central. What was Al's last name? I should never forget that. Anyhow, Al had a market, but I think he made his money after-hours. (laughter)
STEVENSON
All right.
MCCLAIN
And I think he made a lot of it. (laughter)
STEVENSON
So the pool hall was -- the store, rather -- was a front?
MCCLAIN
The store was -- it wasn't a front, he just sold liquor after-hours. He was not -- I mean, he wasn't into drugs or anything like that. Well, except that is a drug, but, you know. But no, he just -- you could just get you a pint or whatever at any time of day. And Specks Pool Hall, there was probably a lot of -- I remember my Uncle John had a -- when we stayed on 53rd Street, in the back there was this big barn-type thing. And they had a couple of pool tables back there, and they used to shoot dice, used to have serious after-hours -- and I think that was Mr. Specks, and I think it started out with my cousin John T. And I think John went to jail or something, and I think then Uncle John kind of stepped in and kind of kept it going. But I think they did pretty well back there. But Central Avenue was fading, I guess, when I was of the age to really appreciate the music and stuff. But like I said, we did -- we did the Lincoln Theatre, and the Million Dollar Theatre, which was downtown. And so we -- and I did get some of that rich musical heritage.
STEVENSON
Can you tell me what some of your mother, your grandmother's political views might have been, or did they ever voice them? And also, at this time, there were many things going on in the South, still a lot of violence. Did you ever discuss any of that -- did they ever discuss that?
MCCLAIN
My grandmother, I don't think we ever had any political conversations. I don't think she ever shared any of her views. She -- like I said, her husband, Barney, Mr. Kerns, he was not a forceful person, but I think he was pretty firm, and he had the ability to deal. So he was pretty successful. Stockton was not the South, but it was not as liberal as it may have appeared to be. I mean, as long as you're on your side of the town, probably everything was cool. (laughter) But I think there was this underlying thing, and I think what happened in our junior high school, when we had the race riot, it just kind of brought it out, but it was not -- I mean, it seemed to be really an OK place, but I'm sure there were barriers. But my grandmother was more into us having spiritual, correct upbringing than anything else. Now, my mom, she was an activist of sorts. She used to tell me about the Marcus [Mosiah] Garvey parades and stuff like that. She -- as a matter of fact, there's a picture of her and Rosa Parks. She was quiet, but like I said, she had us -- when Maxine ran for Assembly the first time, she had us out there -- (telephone rings) Excuse me.[END OF McClain.Clifford.1.07.10.2006-a]

1.2. Session 1B ( July 10, 2006)

STEVENSON
OK, you were talking about your mother's political views, and you were referring (inaudible) --
MCCLAIN
Oh, OK. Yeah, because Rosa is -- she is related to my girl's mother. I don't know exactly where, but they're somehow related, because I know when she was here -- like in this picture here, when they honored her in Duchamps, this is my cousin Barbara, and Barbara was carrying her around, so there's some connection.
STEVENSON
OK. Some familial connection. OK.
MCCLAIN
Yeah, so. But this was -- we had Rosa out for -- I don't know, it was some kind of family something, so my mother -- she and my mother were there together, and so I took that picture.
STEVENSON
OK. If you could tell me about how far you went in your education?
MCCLAIN
Well, I graduated [Thomas] Jefferson High School in 1957, summer of '57. I went to [Los Angeles] Trade Tech [College] -- well, it wasn't Trade Tech at the time, it was Los Angeles Junior College of Business. I was going to go for accounting, and I decided I really didn't want to be an accountant; I wanted to deal with people. So I started -- I took some classes at UCLA Extension, and I was taking tests for the City of Los Angeles. First for an auto messenger, and I got 100%, but I wasn't 18, so they couldn't hire me. So in August -- I think it was August of that next year -- August or July? Anyway, I got hired on for the city, and then I said, well, you know, I could do pretty good with these city tests, so... So at any rate, I got a promotion, took the clerk typist test, got a promotion. I said, well, maybe this city thing will go, so the school thing was sort of, I'll take a class here or I'll take a class there. Took a test, again got 100%; went in for the interview, and I was told that -- and this was the City of Los Angeles in about 1959 -- I was told that there were no blacks -- well, I don't know if they said blacks, they said, "None of your kind," that was probably what they said -- in the department, and we don't think you would fit.
STEVENSON
And which department was this?
MCCLAIN
It was something to do with maintenance, auto maintenance or something. And so that kind of crushed me, so I took a test for the post office, I passed it and moved on to the post office, because I could see that there was opportunity to move in the post office for blacks. So -- and in the process, I still was going to UCLA; I hooked up with -- I forget who it was, somebody over at UCLA was giving me scholarships, or there was some kind of reduced rate, so I could take classes at the UCLA extension. So I did that, and I did it along the lines of -- I had thought about international business or something along those lines. So I was taken classes moving in that direction, but did some organizational things, and -- which helped me.And then -- '65, things changed. And I decided I wanted to get involved. I thought I wanted to be a revolutionary, but Miss Opal C. Jones convinced me that I wanted to be a change agent, which is a little more palatable. But it was probably closer to what I really wanted to be, because I said I was a Panther without a gun. (laughter) So anyhow, I did a class, Reverend -- Reverend, he was like a saint -- Bill Williams, Professor Bill Williams over at USC, put together a class - I think it was like '66, '67, at USC. And through this class, he really taught us a lot, and what helped me -- it was a certificated program, a bunch of us went through it; I can't remember who all was in it, but it was a lot of us in there. And everybody in there just kind moved on. So from that certification program, I was able to use that to kind of move along. So it was -- the educational piece was not as necessary for my upward mobility.
STEVENSON
OK. I have another follow-up to your early life. You mentioned your mother worked at Douglass Aircraft during the war years; can you talk a little bit more about that?
MCCLAIN
Yeah. As a kid, I must have been three or four years old, I remember she took us -- took me to Douglass Aircraft, because she was there in Tulsa, and I fell in love with airplanes. And I don't know where I got the term from, but I had decided that I wanted to be an aeronautical engineer. I didn't even know what that was, but that's what I wanted to be. And I remember going to Jefferson High School in tenth grade, going and sitting down with this young white counselor, and he asked me, "Well, what do you want to do?" So I said, "I want to be an aeronautical engineer," and he fell out laughing. And he said, in earnest, "Your people don't do that. You might want to be an auto mechanic or something." And that really -- that -- the devil used that a lot.
STEVENSON
Yeah. That wasn't that common even well into the '70s, tracking black youths -- white counselors tracking black youths. And I guess this would be an example of this.
MCCLAIN
Yeah. And like I said, he didn't -- I felt no malicious intent. It was just his response. And I'm sure it wasn't his alone; it was probably the response to give, you know?
STEVENSON
Right, exactly.
MCCLAIN
And -- but I know it really hurt my feelings, and kind of changed my -- took some of my enthusiasm about school. Because I -- I mean, I never really thought about cutting class until -- you know, it was just like, what the heck. It was then, let me hurry up and get out of here.
STEVENSON
OK. What was it your mother did at Douglass Aircraft?
MCCLAIN
She was a riveter.
STEVENSON
A riveter. So like Rosie the Riveter.
MCCLAIN
Mm-hmm.
STEVENSON
And so were you aware at the time that there were other African-American women also working at Douglass Aircraft?
MCCLAIN
Oh, there probably -- I would assume; I mean, I probably -- I don't know if I knew any, but I'm pretty sure that it wasn't an odd thing.
STEVENSON
OK. Why don't we stop there for today?
MCCLAIN
Fine with me. OK.
STEVENSON
Because I want to --[END OF McClain.Clifford.1.07.10.2006-b END OF Clifford McClain Session One]

1.3. Session 2 ( July 17, 2006)

MCCLAIN
(inaudible) or anything?
STEVENSON
This is all digital, so it's good. Good morning, it's Monday, July 17; I'm continuing an interview with Clifford McClain, and I want to pick up where we left off in 1965; I'd like you to discuss the beginnings of your activism. And also, that being the year of the first Watts Rebellion, if you could speak about that as well.
MCCLAIN
Well -- good morning. (laughter) '65. '65 was a good year. What happened for me in '65 was, I kind of had things, I thought, kind of had things figured out, in terms of how I was going to approach this thing of husbandhood, fatherhood, you know, and all of these positions of responsibility. And I had thought at first that the City of Los Angeles was going to help me, and as I told you, things happened that showed me that that wasn't going to happen, so I was in the Post Office, and I decided that I didn't want to be a supervisor, but I wanted to do something more. And one of my patrons, Mr. Simpkins, a realtor, on Arlington [Avenue] just south of Jefferson [Boulevard]. And one day, I went in, "Mr. Simpkins," -- he had this big diamond ring, and he was always dressed nice -- just a real classy guy. And he treated his wife -- I mean, his wife was always like -- so I admired this man.So one day, we got into conversation, and I said to him, I really -- I'm kind of tired of this, you know what I mean? I used the post office as sort of a developmental thing for me, in terms of dealing with the public. I mean, I had a route that my patrons waited for me to come back, you know. They'd talk to me about their wayward grandchildren, they just -- (laughter). And so consequently, I had one of the shortest routes, and they were really upset when (inaudible) because I was such a young person, I was maybe 25. And -- but it was because I told my patrons, when you see me coming with that white man, don't you run. You come out and you bring two glasses of lemonade. (laughter) So consequently, when I checked my routes, they'd -- it lasted a long time, but they weren't very full. So -- but anyway, Mr. Simpkins told me, he said, "You know, when I was a young man, I felt pretty much like you; I was working for this post office." I said, "You worked for the post office?" He said, "Yeah." He said, "And one day I just came in, and I told my wife that I wanted more, and that I was going to do something different. And I just walked out from the post office, and I haven't looked back." And I said, "Wow!" (laughter)
STEVENSON
So did you see the post office was sort of a stepping stone, as it was for many African-Americans?
MCCLAIN
Yeah. It was. It was -- as a matter of fact, I remember when I told my grandmother that I was going to leave the post office, she just couldn't understand. "Boy, why do you want to walk away from that good job?" Now to look back, I could have been retired. But I didn't really feel the administrative part of the post office, at least that that I saw; I didn't want to live like that. And it seemed like to me, they were kind of pushing people, you know what I mean, trying to get -- and a lot of times, you had to get folks to produce. So -- but anyway, I kind of looked at politics, and I began to kind of look and see what it took to get into politics, and I couldn't understand why there were not more blacks involved. And so -- and then I looked, and I looked at the demographics, and I saw that there were areas where we may not have had the majority, but we had a good portion, and we had some very influential people, like the district that I finally did run in 1966 -- there was a lot of substantial folk in that district.So at any rate, '65 also, my wife became pregnant with our second child, and so this whole fatherhood thing was really taking some form. And in August, when my baby girl was born, the riot broke out. Now, I'm going to share something here, and I hope that whoever reads this will read it understanding that I'm just trying to be truthful. I had a real misconception about what marriage was. (laughter) I had a real misconception about what marriage was, and I kind of felt, because of some of the -- and I'm not going to blame it on anybody, but I did see -- well, let me just put it this way. One of my role models was my cousin John T. McClain, and anybody who knew John T. would understand why I might have some difficulty. (laughter) Although John T. always tried to show me the other side; he always discouraged me from runnin' the streets; he always encouraged me to go to school. As a matter of fact, during that period of time, he had a nightclub called the It Club, and I worked in the It Club, and I would want to get involved with -- you know, entertainers and all of this, and I'd want to get involved in the parties and the different -- if he ever came in and I was there, the party was over. And he would reprimand people, you know -- "He does not belong." (laughter) And -- but I, as a young man, I kind of took it like, well, why can't I have fun. But then later in life, I truly understood where he was coming from, and I love him today for that. He really tried to steer me in the right path.But any rate, so during the -- and I'll tell you why I shared that, is because I was out partying when the riots broke out, and I -- as I was coming home, I noticed the police were looking at me real funny, and so I'm on my way; now, my wife is pregnant, so I come home, and she goes into a false labor, so we go to Kaiser [Permanente] up on Sunset [Boulevard], and so we're there for a bit, and they said, "No, take her back home." So we're coming back home, and as we're coming home, I turn on Western [Avenue] and Venice [Boulevard]; there was a blockade there. And as I turned, I guess my headlights startled a young man, looked like he was no more than 17 or 18, National Guard. And he just brought his rifle right down, as though to aim it. And I stopped my car and got out, raised my hands up, and told him -- and these words, I don't know where they came from -- "It's OK. It's OK." And he like -- it seemed like he almost broke into tears. I guess it startled him, he made a reaction, and I guess he saw the mistake he could have made, and it just shook him up. And I got back in the car. But that's a real vivid recollection there. That was will stick with me forever probably.So -- but now, '65, the riots, which happened in April -- I mean, in August, so it was sort of like the tail end of the year. I was -- I guess I was listening a lot to Malcolm [X] and John Coltrane, and it -- something was happening in me. Something was -- I was -- yes, I was for -- oh, and I was also going to Bootstrap, Operation Bootstrap, and Lou Smith -- well, I always say, Lou Smith, Walt Bremond, and Danny Bakewell showed me, beyond a doubt, that pigmentation had nothing to do with being black. (laughter) Had nothing to do with being black, because these are the blackest people that I know. And Lou and Walt, to me at that particular time, because they had the education, the access, I mean -- they could do whatever they wanted to do, but yet they were still down here with us.So I admired those two tremendously, and I tried to hear what they had to say, and somewhat pattern my life after them. It was like, yeah, we've got to do this thing, and as I said before, they weren't trapped in it; they could have -- I feel they could have gone wherever they wanted to go, but they were here, and they were setting a great example. So, but any rate, all of this was going on. Lou used to have this thing at Bootstrap; he had these little books, and that's where I really found out about Denmark Vesey and -- what's his name? -- one of my real heroes -- oh, Nat Turner. And he just -- he had had these -- maybe a dozen little history pamphlets, and folks that I had never really come in contact with. And so -- and then Lou also developed these dialogues with the outside community, and as a matter of fact, I remember once I had an opportunity to go and speak -- where was I? -- it was in the Pacific Palisades, I think the guy's house that we went to, he was the chairperson or the chief operating officer or something of -- what is it? -- oh, my goodness -- oh, it'll come to me. It's in Santa Monica now; sort of the think-tank type --
STEVENSON
Rand?
MCCLAIN
Rand, yeah, right.
STEVENSON
Rand Corporation.
MCCLAIN
Yeah. Very gracious gentleman, but really an incident that happened as I was speaking, there was a brother there, and he was a little uneasy with my presence. And as I got to talking, and I hit a few points, the next thing I knew, this brother was cheering. (laughter) I (inaudible), you know, maybe I could share what I'm feeling, right? So I hope it didn't hurt him. (laughter) But he did, he kind of came out, you know? So anyway, and then getting around, like I said, as we came into August, and we had the riot rebellion -- as I was in the streets, as I said, when it happened, I came home to make sure my family and everything is all right, and then we're dealing with this situation of my daughter being born -- she was born on the 24th -- I began to get out in the streets, and as I was in the streets, I ran into some young people -- I remember one day probably about three days into the riot or the rebellion, I ran into some young people I went to high school with. And they had -- well, when I ran into them on the street, we were talking, they said, "Man, we're socking it to the Man, I'm socking it to the Man with you." So I went with them to their place and go in, and there was a Hudson's on Slauson and Main. And they had gone into Hudson's, took boxes and boxes and boxes of these shoes, and -- you know the shoes that the gang bangers were wearing at one time? They were sort of a house shoe, but they were sort of corduroy like? A bunch of those. I was so disappointed; it was like -- and I told them, I said -- they said, "Yeah, man, we going --" I said, "Look. When you get to Wilshire [Boulevard], I'll join you."But speaking of disappointing, probably well into that week, I have a cousin, Warner Wright, he's the son of Crispis Wright; he has an apartment up on Doheny just south of Sunset. Real nice, nice place. And he and another friend, Lynn Dixon, the three of us were sitting in Warner's living room. Beautiful living room, a tree growing up in the middle of the room -- really just a classy, classy place. And we're sitting here, there's a riot raging, or a rebellion. And I'm thinking more rebellion than anything else. And so as we're sitting there talking, and I'm reflecting on Malcolm and all of these other things, and some of the things that I'm feeling, and Warner and Lynn together kind of just said, "Gene, wake up." "What?" Said, "Man," -- and I don't know if I should say it this way -- well, I will, I'll put it this way -- "When those Negroes sober up, if you go out there, you're going to be out there by yourself." And I said, you know -- it hit me. I was like, wait a minute, no, it's not quite that bad. But then I really went out and started looking, started paying close attention to what I was seeing. There were liquor stores being -- there were a lot of people drinking and doing some real strange things. And I kind of really looked at it to see that it wasn't what I -- it wasn't that romantic type of thing that I was really feeling, that we were finally saying, "Hey, we've had enough." Yes, we did; we did have enough. But that wasn't the context, or the total context, in which this thing was happening. And it did kind of bother me. And then as I reflected on my friends that I had gone to school with, and how they responded, it just kind of drew me more into this thing of, we've got to do something. And as I said before, I thought I kind of had things figured out about how to raise my family, and what I was about to do. But the need to include more than just me and mine began to really develop.So there was this group after the riot, rebellion; it was called TALO: Temporary Alliance of Local Organizations. And this group came together as a result of Walt and Lou and I think the Men of Tomorrow, and Dr. Ballard, and everybody, Celes[tus King, III] -- everybody just kind of came together. And we used to meet on Central, I think it was Central and 46th or 40 -- maybe it was 48th; there was a little corner building there with a glass front on it, so you know we had a lot of nerve. And we met there regularly; I don't remember how often the meetings were, but I remember -- and folks came, [Maulana] Karenga, everybody came together. And there was some rough times, but we really, for a minute, seemed to be willing to come and sit together, from the NAACP [National Association for the Advancement of Colored People] to US to SNCC [Student nonviolent Coordinating Committee] to -- everybody. And I don't know it dissipated, but it did. But I think probably from that, that's probably where Walt thought about this whole thing of the Black Congress, a more formal structure, a place that you could kind of control the environment, and also sort of incubate groups, because you have office space -- which I thought was a great idea. I'm sure there was a lot of organized intervention, because you hear people talk about, you know, who was this and who was that, and I don't know, I can't -- and everybody that I knew and know now, I mean, I just can't see them being anything other than just some young black folks trying to do -- now, they may have been misguided or misdirected, perchance, but I don't think anybody was openly engaged by the CIA [Central Intelligence Agency] or anything like that.
STEVENSON
Well, let me ask you this. So TALO was a direct result of the Watts Rebellion?
MCCLAIN
Yes.
STEVENSON
And then -- so TALO really is the forerunner, you would say, of the Black Congress?
MCCLAIN
Yeah. It was something that just came together; I don't know who all pulled out -- I know Walt was involved, I know Lou was involved, I know that Dr. Ballad was involved, Karenga was involved. But I'm seeing probably Celes and Walt and folks like that pulling it together, and like I said, it operated for awhile, and I don't remember what happened -- I know we had some misunderstandings. Media, I believe, was the fly in the ointment. It was -- things -- the disagreements developed around media.
STEVENSON
OK. More specifically?
MCCLAIN
I think there was this lady, and I don't know -- I can't remember her name, I think it was -- I almost want to say Fran Savage; I'm not sure if that was her name, though. But she was a Jewish lady, and she kind of caused some friction. And what happened was, a couple of guys got into it, and I don't know whether it was partly personal or was wholly a problem with somebody getting more media than somebody else, something like that.
STEVENSON
Could that reporter have been Jessica Savitch?
MCCLAIN
Maybe it was -- was it Jessica Savitch? I'm thinking her name was Savage, though.
STEVENSON
OK. We can probably check that with the time period. OK. So the Black Congress -- what was your understanding of its philosophy, organizing principles?
MCCLAIN
Well, I may have had some specific ideas about it at the time, but as I reflect, I really -- I just know that coming together down there on -- right off of Florence and Broadway -- that it was a good thing that -- it was a necessary thing, in the sense that groups needed to come together, needed to have some space, needed to have this opportunity to sort of formulate their plan, and see how they can fit it into the master plan, so to speak. And I saw that happening through this effort. I also -- you know, the thing is, the real outstanding quality of Walt Bremond, to me, was to get Walt into conversation meant that you were going to bring some resources. If you were talking to Walt about something, and there was a need that was identified, every time I know I've been in a conversation like that, Walt found some money or something. It was almost expected, you know? He just -- it was like, OK, well, I'll do that, and then the next thing you know, that was not the issue, the lack of money; the issue was, let's get it done. And so that was what I saw, the Congress coming together, because here was Walt -- and others -- who were helping folks to get off the ground. And it was -- I mean, it was US, it was the Panthers, it was everybody, militant and not so militant, and they all had a place. Now, I wasn't there on a regular basis; I was busy doing something else during that period. I was trying (inaudible). And so I saw it happening; I would even go through there, but that wasn't my spot.
STEVENSON
Well, let me ask you this. The major issues that led to the rebellion: could you discuss that a little bit? And secondly, were those the same issues, conceivably, that both TALO and the Black Congress were trying to address?
MCCLAIN
Yeah. I would say the issue of the police, certainly. The issue of lack of jobs, lack of opportunity, all of those things, came into play. I think what TALO was trying to do mainly was to stabilize things. Tried to bring people to a point where they were looking for some constructive ways of addressing this. And really kind of seeing what we could do as a group, because as I said before, you had the Men of Tomorrow, you had US, you had everybody at the table, so we could talk about how we move forward. And it wasn't about tearing up the place; it was about building, which was a good thing. Now, I think the Congress -- Walt -- I think its basic philosophy was institutional, building, institution building. He wanted to put things in place that would outlast an individual. What happens often is that, you know, you have an individual, dynamic leader, and when that leader's gone, whatever effort that is just falls by the wayside. Walt's thing was, let's institutionalize the effort, not only in terms of one entity taking it on, but maybe a thrust in that particularly direction that might be carried by a number of different entities. So I think that's really where he was coming from. And I think that's really what we need to look at, because I've seen so many things just fall by the wayside. Like your father's involved in one for instance, that whole thing with the [George] Washington Prep[aratory High School], with your dad and --
STEVENSON
Ten Schools Program.
MCCLAIN
Yeah. Dr. Martin and George McKenna. That to me should have been replicated and spread all over, you know? But maybe we didn't have enough Al Moores and Dr. Martins and George McKennas to carry it out. I don't know. So even if you go and look at those neighborhoods now, I'm wondering what you see. I know I took a peek a little while ago, and (inaudible).
STEVENSON
I see. Could you talk a little bit about the War on Poverty, in terms of its effect -- in terms of its programs, how successful were they, and chronologically, how it fits into this whole scheme, starting with the Watts Rebellion and even before that time, and whether there was any cause and effect there?
MCCLAIN
Well, the War on Poverty worked for me, worked for me and my family. When I say me and my family, I mean my whole family: my sisters, my children, we all benefited. One, for instance: my oldest daughter was one of the first graduates of Headstart. She went to Frederick Douglass Headstart. I knew there was a problem, because when she went to 24th Street Elementary School, and she graduated from Headstart, I asked her, I said, "Baby, how was school?" She said, "Daddy, I don't like school." I said, "What? You used to get your mom up at 5:00 in the morning, talkin' about 'Come on, Mama, let's get ready.'" She says, "Yeah, Daddy, but all I do is play, and I got better toys at home." And so we were down at the school, I said, "Wait a minute, what's up here?"So what they did was that there were a number of kids who came into that school from Headstart that were creating a problem, because they were bored; they didn't have -- they were not prepared for these kids. So what they're trying to do -- one of the things they did, they skipped my daughter. So it was like, they were trying to do some makeshift things. Now, we paid close attention, and we did the things that we needed to do, so consequently, out of our children, we have two University of California graduates. I mean, this is out of a household that college was -- (laughter) wasn't the thing. But since then, their mother, my ex-wife, went back, and she has two Master's degrees. But starting out, that wasn't the case. My problem with, or the problem that I saw with the whole thing of the War on Poverty as it relates to Los Angeles was that the city and the Board of Education, and probably the county as well, but I know the city and the Board of Education, because I saw it firsthand, did not participate in good faith with what was going on.
STEVENSON
This is the War on Poverty program?
MCCLAIN
Yes. They blocked a lot of things; they just messed up a lot of things. They really weren't the good-faith operators in this endeavor. I mean, I could -- there were situations -- we had in the schools, New Careers in the Schools. We had mothers who had been on welfare who came and got involved in the program. Wasn't making a lot of money, but making a little money. Your self-esteem was going through the roof, because they were doing things, and they were able to help their communities. I remember this one lady over in East LA, her mere presence broke up fights. I mean, always say, "Here come Miss So-and-so," and everybody disbanded. And you had other campuses pretty much run that way. This whole thing about the gangs would have never happened if we had been allowed to do what it was that we set out to do.And we had five positions that we wanted to institutionalize with the school setting. One of those was dealing with attendance, having a person who'd check and see who's not coming and why. There was a social service person who was going out and developing resources -- you know, one of the reasons some kids didn't go to school the first of the year was because they didn't have any new clothes, so they kind of held back and waited and kind of blended in. So most of the kids come in on the first day of school, the first week of school, they've got it going on. So a lot of students just didn't make that. Now, I know there was this program, Operation School Bill, which I thought was a marvellous program that I ran into years later, this was back in the '80s when I ran into this program. It was put on by the Junior Achievers or something, the wives of doctors and lawyers -- young ladies. And they had this little house over in Hollywood, and I brought a group of youngsters over there from Compton. The school wouldn't do this; I had to do it on my own. Took the kids, they had clothes laid out; they talked to them about color schemes -- it was like going to Giorgio's, you know what I mean? It was truly a beautiful experience, uplifting experience. And all of those kids left out of there feeling good about themselves. And if they just had the draw for that for a year, they had something, you know what I mean? But there were things that could have happened.And then we looked at also the delinquency problem; we had a person that would go out and find the kids that were ditching, go to the places where they went to play the games when they should have been in school, talked to the proprietors about, maybe you need to change your hours, or at least not let them in, things like that. But, you know, you had -- like I said, these five positions that could have helped any campus be successful, would have utilized people from that particular neighborhood, so increasing employment opportunities, and the automatic buy-in for putting the effort into that particular school. So I mean, just stuff like that. There were probably a number of things that I could draw on that could show that if we had been allowed to do what it was we were supposed to do, it would have worked. Even with some other areas of the New Careers Program, there were some people -- like I remember, I went to, a few years ago, a lady retired from probation, and she was one of our New Careerists, and she came in and she worked her way up, and she went to school, and moved up the ladder. But she had the opportunity, and I think we could have done a lot more, if we'd had the participation and cooperation and the money that we needed along the way.
STEVENSON
So had government been more invested in the War on Poverty programs, do you think it would be a stretch to say that even the first Watts Rebellion could have been averted?
MCCLAIN
If we had started early enough, yeah. It could have been. It could have been, but see, there's one thing -- it could have been averted, is that it might have been a flare-up because of what happened -- unless you change your police, you're going to always have an opportunity to have a flare-up. It can last a long time, or it can last a short time, depending on the conditions. Just to show you. Mayor [Thomas] Bradley -- and I don't think we give Mayor Bradley the credit that he deserves. Yes, he was the first black, but Mayor Bradley had a way of doing it. When that second verdict after Rodney [King]--
STEVENSON
King?
MCCLAIN
Reginald -- no, what was it --
STEVENSON
Denny?
MCCLAIN
-- [Reginald] Denny thing, yeah. What Bradley did, Bradley said, "Look, we're not going to have the same thing happen." He came up with this Neighbor-to-Neighbor program, hired a bunch of us, community organizers, go out and work and do some things. We also did some gang intervention stuff; I had the ability to hire a number of youngsters at Banning High School and Jordan High School; there were others who had the ability to do it other places, get the kids involved, have them doing some very positive, constructive things. When that verdict went down, folks were upset, but -- and there may have been some flare-ups, but it wasn't this mass thing, because we began to work with people, we had done some real positive things in those communities, and so folks said, "Yeah, OK, so it didn't go right, but look, we're doing something..." But then not too far after that, when the Mayor went out and [Richard J.] Riordan came in, then all of that went -- disappeared, all of that energy and effort that should have been, I think, really built on. So we've had some opportunities to take some steps, I think, to make things better. I believe -- you know, we talk a good game, usually -- this whole thing about community policing -- it really should be community policing, but it should be community policing on our terms.
STEVENSON
OK. The community's terms.
MCCLAIN
Yeah. See, and the police -- it's still a them-and-us kind of situation. And there are some good -- there are some people I truly believe in in the police department, but they're up against it, because the culture is so inept. Really, it's -- because of what's happened in the past, there's going to have to be a complete -- what's the word I need? -- a re-culturing; the whole culture's got to be revised, revitalized, in some respects, because where it is now, I don't think it -- there's still a them-and-us.
STEVENSON
So has the culture of the LAPD changed that much from the days of William Parker, and further down the line, Darrell Gates?
MCCLAIN
Well, I would say yes. But that change -- [Bernard C.] Parks and I, I was probably his most loyal supporter at one point, but I think he distanced himself from me, because -- he used to tell me, "Cliff, you cannot hire and fire," and that was my thing. I need to be able to hire and fire. I need to be able to have some say about who patrols my neighborhood. If you get out line, you need to know, I can fire you. When I say "I," the community.
STEVENSON
Right. And isn't that what community policing --
MCCLAIN
That's what it needs to be. And -- but Bernie's done -- he did some things, I think he -- one of the things that he did which really got some folks upset was, he said, "You can get fired." And some folks really -- they didn't take that well at all. They felt that once I put on this blue, this is for life. "I'm a blue for life."
STEVENSON
So some people felt there should have been more loyalty on his part.
MCCLAIN
Yeah. But I think his loyalty was due to me. I'm the one back here trying to make sure that you get an opportunity to change things, so... (laughter)
STEVENSON
Could you talk a little bit about, I guess as it relates to the Black Congress to the extent that you can, or just dealing with issues in the community, other than Tom Bradley, and maybe you could talk a little bit more about his role -- who were the African-American elected officeholders that addressed issues in any kind of concrete way during this time?
MCCLAIN
Well, I think Merv, Merv did a lot. Certainly Bradley. Gus Hawkins. I think Gus really has not received the -- all the love he deserves. Gus did some stuff that, you know, from what I understand, Miss [Opal C.] Jones wrote the NAPP [Neighborhood Adult Participation Project] program on the back of an envelope and gave it to him and told him to have this done.
STEVENSON
That's Opal, Opal Jones?
MCCLAIN
Yeah. So, I mean, and NAPP, one of the things that we should have done is we should have institutionalized NAPP. We should have made sure that neighborhoods really have a place in their development.
STEVENSON
So by institutionalized, you mean in the way in which the Brotherhood Crusade, or, say -- because I also include, when I talk about institutions, like, say, the King Hospital, or the Watts Health Foundation -- institutionalized in terms of making it a long-term --
MCCLAIN
Long-term, but longer-term. You get to a point where there are no poor people, you don't need NAPP. Everybody's off doing whatever -- and I don't know if we can ever get there. I think you'll always have a need for NAPP. Anyway, so you're going to have a need for NAPP if you have immigrant communities coming; there's always going to be somebody at the bottom. So how did they get their justice without a NAPP? So Neighborhood Adult Participation, gotta be able to participate. And oftentimes, people are locked out at certain levels of participation. So consequently, their growth is stunted. Unless you find some other way, sometimes it's illegal, to amass some money, you can hang it up.
STEVENSON
Right. You said that you weren't as involved with the Black Congress as some of the other people I've interviewed. Could you talk about what you were doing -- I'd like you to elaborate on your campaign, that you ran for office -- was that Assembly?
MCCLAIN
Yes, I ran for the Assembly; I ran against -- see, I always do these kinds of things: I ran against the chairman of the Democratic Party, Charlie Warren. And I got my heart broken a couple of times, because I thought that folks could appreciate what it was that I was trying -- another thing was that if someone had came to me and said, "Cliff, you know what? We like what you're trying to do, but we don't think you're the one to do it, so we're going to put so-and-so." I would have been able to accept that, because I didn't know (inaudible), but I knew something needed to be done. And I was learning by the seat of my pants, I was reading and just trying to figure out which way this thing really goes. So I remember, I had -- Lois Davis Jones, Lois Davis, (inaudible). But I mean, her kids were like my brothers and sisters, and Dr. Davis was -- oh, man, this guy was -- he was phenomenal, this gentleman that created all of this, he was just -- he was a person that I really held in awe. Truly remarkable. But anyway, I went to talk to Miss Jones, see Lois, and she told me, "Cliff, I love you," -- because I was one of her kids -- she says, "but I need Charlie." And my thought was, "Well, what can Charlie do that I can't do if I'm in the position?" Yes, Charlie has far more in-roads into stuff. But I'm thinking that through me, you're sitting at the table; through Charlie, you're getting whatever he gives you. And really, I couldn't get that, I just couldn't get it. To me, it was like, you need somebody at the table; I was sick and tired of this leftover stuff. I said we've got to move it beyond. Now, had I known about -- maybe if I had done my research and known about an Assemblyperson, Mr. [Frederick Madison] Roberts, who was a Republican --
STEVENSON
Fred Roberts.
MCCLAIN
Yeah. Then maybe I might have taken a different approach; I might have been a Republican before (inaudible). Because let's face it, Democratic politics, at one time -- Plantation Politics. And as good as Merv was, he still had to go through Jess. Now, I think Merv later in life developed -- well, look at what he did; he had -- Bill [Greene] came through him, Teresa [Hughes]; a lot of people came through him. And probably if I had had a little different attitude, I might have. But Miss Jones warned me about that, though. She said, "You don't want to go that way." And so I kind of understood it. Not saying anything against Merv; I think Merv is a great guy. But I think Merv also has his way of dealing with and seeing things too. And I don't know; I can say this because I've never held office. But I believe I would do with an office much different than anybody that I have seen in there, because of my motivation.And my motivation is, I would want to be like Gus. I would want to be like Adam Clayton Powell [Jr.], you know what I mean? My thing would be that it's not about what I amass; it's about what I'm able to do for my community. I think I would want to be judged by the monuments that have been built within the community. So -- and that's not to say that everybody doesn't go -- I've known Maxine [Waters] for years, from the beginning, and I know Maxine wants to do -- but then I also know that there are distractions, and I guess being human, you kind of succumb to some. But I just think -- it's the same thing with being in the Republican Party; I am a Republican, I do believe in Republican principles, but I'm also a black man, and anything that goes against my people, I have to be in opposition to it. So because it's the Party's line doesn't make it mine necessarily. There are some things that I believe black folks need to relate to, such as family values. Without family values, we would have never come this far. And as we lose those, we get to the point where we see so many black people on Jerry Springer. (laughter)
STEVENSON
Could you tell me what it was about Fred Roberts' persona, or the way he ran his campaign, his political office, that you wish you would have taken more to heart? And the same question about Mr. Hawkins.
MCCLAIN
Well, the thing is is that Fred Roberts, I know during that period of time -- that's probably why we didn't know anything about him -- to do anything to help black folks, which he did -- civil rights legislation, just stuff that he did during his tenure, in spite of -- now, I don't know what the political climate was then, as it relates to his party; I don't even know right this minute who was governor, or I don't know whether he had access to the throne, so to speak. He may have, I'm thinking he probably did; there's a reason why he was able to get so much done. But he did quite a bit, and so knowing that, I think I would have used that for my argument for making sure that we have an African-American in office, if we could have one, because that's where we can make a difference. That was really what I wanted to do. The other thing was, in terms of Mr. Hawkins, Gus had a -- well, he did quite a bit; he did quite a bit. But he had a connection to the community. He never -- I think Adam had more sense of community, he would have never have gone through what he went through. I think Gus, I don't think there was no way you could have taken Gus down, because Gus was loved. He had his -- yeah, Charlie Knox was a good guy, so he had some folks -- not only that, Bill, Bill Williams. So we had some folks that did community stuff, and you have to do that; you have to maintain that connection.
STEVENSON
OK. What was your platform when you ran?
MCCLAIN
Dorothy Donegan, my cousin, she used to -- she'd see me coming in, "Here he comes, there's the man with the clean air..." -- what'd I have, clear air, good water, better schools. Anyway, I had this thing, and she would run off these things whenever I would come into the room. But that was -- my thing was, you know, improve the environment -- and that was back then --
STEVENSON
Which was -- what year was it when you were campaigning?
MCCLAIN
'66. And also, I wanted to do something about the police. I don't even remember exactly how I had it formed, but it was something probably about Civilian Review Board, something -- some kind of way to be able to -- 'cause my thing was, I believe when you say to a police officer, yes, we appreciate you; we're going to take care of you. But if you get out of line, you can (inaudible).
STEVENSON
OK. And so you ran against Charlie Warren, and you obviously lost hat race by how much?
MCCLAIN
Oh, quite a bit. I think I must have got maybe 30% of the vote, (inaudible).
STEVENSON
OK. I see. Could you talk a little bit about, as much as you know -- I know that the Black Congress played a role in keeping the peace after Dr. King's assassination. So could you talk about that in detail, which is something every one of the other interviewees have talked about. I know there was a rally called at the Coliseum, and that -- I've read some Times articles about how the Black Congress in particular played a role in bringing people together and trying to keep the peace, and did keep the peace, that was acknowledged in the press.
MCCLAIN
I'm trying to think of what -- I'm really trying to think of what I was doing during that period. I guess I was in -- NAPP, I guess -- yeah, it had to have been NAPP. So I didn't have time to go to the Black Congress, I was at my outpost doing the stuff that I felt I needed to do. Now, I know there was a lot of tension around the time of his assassination. And there was a lot of talk about keeping things down. So I guess through the Congress, you got folks to buy into "Let's keep a lid on it." And so -- but like I said, I was just so busy at my center, outside of the NAPP family, I probably didn't see too much else, except for them when I got into the Brotherhood thing, around '68. But up until that time, I was just planning to get through my day-to-day obligations with NAPP.
STEVENSON
OK. Perhaps you could discuss in detail for me the Neighborhood Adult Participation Project, its genesis, what its mission and goals were, and your involvement in it.
MCCLAIN
It started in '65, I think it started before August -- I'm thinking it did, but I know funding came after August, that's finally when everything just got opened up. But I think Miss Jones had given its outline before. But anyway, after it took hold, I came -- it was really funny, I was standing in the parking lot at Ralph's on Western[Avenue] and Olympic [Boulevard], and I was out there -- I don't know what exactly it was, it might have been something from SNCC or something I was raising sand about. I was passing out flyers, and Miss Jones, who lived right down the street, and I guess she must have shopped at that Ralph's, and she walked up in, and she says, "Young man, do you really want to make a change?" And I said, "Well, yes, ma'am." And she said, "Would you let me help you?" And she gave me her card; she said, "I want you to come, we're having a meeting, and I want you to come."So I went to the early NAPP meetings, and I got involved; went to the Board of Education, we were talking to the board about some changes that needed to be made, and I spoke, and she asked me if I want to work on NAPP. And -- $333 a month. (laughter) And I took it, and I worked there -- and Mr. Wills, Carl Wills, was the director at the Exposition Outpost, we were right across from the Health center on Western [Avenue] and 38th [Street]. So I went there, and then Mr. Wills made me his assistant, and then we got some funding for some bigger program, and Mr. Wills moved up and then I moved into his spot as the director, or the -- I guess that's what they call us, the director -- of the Exposition Outpost. And we had neighborhood workers -- I had a board, I had Maxine Waters as the chairman of my board -- I had a board, and I had neighborhood workers that we could hire, and then we had Operation Mainstream, people to be placed in agencies. And Operation Mainstream -- this was the philosophy of NAPP. NAPP said that the recipient of service should be an integral part of the service delivery team. And so that was -- two people, say someone who had been on welfare, coming off of welfare, going to work, who could sit in a welfare office and help bridge the communication gap between the intake workers or the social workers and the folks that were coming in, who could assist you, who might go out and help you with making a visit into the projects where you might be a little bit timid about going in by yourself, but she could go in and kind of -- you know.So what we were saying is that we all have something to bring to the table, and if you bring me in, utilizing me at the level that I'm comfortable with, and then train me, then you can bring me on in and make me a part of this -- an integral part of this service delivery team. So that was why we tried to do community work, I think the CETA [Comprehensive Employment and Training Act] and the SEP and all of that. So but originally, it was the Operation Mainstream, where we paid the people's salary, placed them in these government and community-based organizations. And then a little bit later on, we developed the New Careers programs, that came in in about '69, maybe '68. And so this is where we sit down, and we wrote this New Careers in the Schools program, where we were going to take the new careerist and place them into the schools; we had these five different positions, and we wanted them to go to school, and so we had academic release time, and then we had core training where they would come to the Center, and we would deal with whatever their particular issues were. One thing, it was like having people make sure that they had their tickets taken care of, because a guy would get a job, he's working, and on his way to work, gets pulled over by a cop; he's got a warrant, gets taken away, loses his job, you know. So we're trying to deal with folks on the level of, hey, all these things (inaudible), let's take care of. And then, they had issues, how you deal with somebody on the job that such and such -- you're normally used to smackin' folks that get out of line with you. So we would work through those issues.And that first year, we would pay the whole salary. The second year, then, the school or community-based agency or whatever, they were supposed to pick up half of the salary, and then the third year, you're on your own. We were doing that, and so I got the opportunity and -- I think it was around '70 -- they had just about run out of funds, they weren't going to re-fund the New Careers program. So I went to Miss Jones, because I wanted that program, because I had helped to write it; some of the job descriptions I felt were what I wrote. Some other folks (inaudible) the same thing, but anyway, I said, "Wow, I just want to have this opportunity," and so I went to Miss Jones, and she told me, she said, "Cliff, we only have funding for three more months," and she said, "(inaudible) coming out of your position and giving it up." And I said, "Well, I'll take the gamble." I said, "If you will do one thing for me, I want the job." And she said, "What's that?" I said, "I want you to go with me to the DOL [Department of Labor], and let me talk to them."
STEVENSON
That's Department of Labor?
MCCLAIN
Yeah. Dr. Aguirre was the Head in San Francisco. So she did, we went to San Francisco, and we had no problem meeting with Dr. Aguirre. Miss Jones came in, she said, "This young man wants to talk to you." So I told him what I thought and how I thought it would work, and we could do... He called in Bob Reynolds and Grace [Montanez] Davis, and told them, "Give this young man whatever it is that he wants." And it was on from there. We had a good run. We were able to -- (inaudible), what does it do with the schools? What happened with the schools was that I think I was a little bit out of step with the workers, and most of the workers were former welfare mothers who needed the job, first of all, liked the idea of doing the stuff that we wanted to do, but the way it was proposed to them was, "Look, you either go in this classroom and become a teacher's aide, or we're going to get rid (inaudible)." And so I couldn't convince them to take a chance, so I just kind of (inaudible), that's what you want.But what I did was I began then to concentrate on what we did outside of the school system. Slots and Lowly's place, Hillsman's Central City, Bricks Kick, that place -- a number of people who have -- Evelyn Knight's castle program was a part of community services. And I had some -- quite a few people placed in Avery's Boys' Home. The reason I did that was because I thought we could have an impact on the juvenile justice, because what I tried to get Avery to understand was that if you hired or trained your staff, you could get more done. I said, you guys are talking about just taking bums off the street, saying, "Hey, you can sleep here; I just want you to watch these boys." So what happens? Guy gets three or four checks, he's able to get the dope he wants or the booze he needs, he's gone. You'd better hope he's gone, because he may be trying to stay there and do it.
STEVENSON
So it didn't address rehabilitation?
MCCLAIN
No. See, and my thing was that we want to deal with that; we want to bring them in, do the core training, we do all these things, we want them to go to school, we want them to be prepared, equipped to deal with these kids, because these kids are so frightening. You've got some dummy up here, they'll run circles around him. So somebody who's not really thinking, especially if he's into drugs or alcohol or whatever, he's not going to be able to help this situation. So we didn't get the cooperation that I thought we should. As a matter of fact, I formed an organization called the California Council on Youth to deal with that. But -- California Council on Youth wound up being my avenue to deal with kids. First, I thought in terms of developing something similar to what California Youth Homes do, because California Youth Homes had a big facility over in Inglewood; they had hundreds of kids, they even had their own school -- I forget what it's called, Masada or something like that.
STEVENSON
Masada?
MCCLAIN
Masada, was it Masada?
STEVENSON
Masada maybe.
MCCLAIN
It's out in -- what is that? -- Lawndale, something over there. And so I said, "Wow. They can do it, we can do it," especially since most of the kids placed there were black. And so -- but never was just able to gel. I put a little bit too much faith in one of our folks, and he was moving into retirement, he was a placement officer for the county, and between you and I, he liked to -- you know -- and this never -- But what I did was I began to develop activities for kids, camping, and develop a great relationship with the Department of Parks and Recreation, State Department of Parks and Beaches, and they helped me a great deal. As a matter of fact, they developed a program that's called Famcamp, and now they have about eight trailers located in various state parks with camping gear, from tents and sleeping bags, Coleman stoves, lanterns, dishes, everything, to outfit about 32 people for a camping experience.
STEVENSON
Famcamp.
MCCLAIN
So they did a lot to help me, because Jack Shu was the guy that put that together; I (inaudible), want to go camping, but got to try to find the money to buy sleeping bags. Folks mainly out of -- I was dealing with Compton and housing developments, and -- well, these families, camping gear was not a priority. (inaudible) I'd take some kids on a camping trip, they didn't have a jacket, much less a sleeping bag. So -- but anyway, I don't know how I progressed to that, but the whole thing of NAPP, again, was having people in the community, showing them that -- this was one of the things that Miss Jones would ask us -- find a project that you can do. Just find something that you can do, organize people around that, get that done, and then don't stop. I remember we did this thing where one of the bus lines coming up Normandie Avenue, and I remember -- we did a survey, we asked people what they wanted, and this was what most of the people want. So I said, OK, we'll try that. So we went and talked to the -- so it's RTD [Rapid Transit District] at that time, and we had these meetings, and I think it was -- Billy Mills was the councilperson at that time, (inaudible). And so we got everything lined up, and we did these petitions, and sure enough, they changed the line; they made the line come up Normandie [Avenue]. And boy -- then we had folks, they thought we could turn the world upside, you know? And we were able to get some things done, but like I said, we really should have institutionalized in some way.
STEVENSON
So how was Councilman [Billy G.] Mills able to facilitate this, or what was his role in this line up Normandie?
MCCLAIN
I think -- one of the things he did, he got us a meeting with the people, with the RTD. So he -- one of the things about -- and this is something about Judge Mills -- Billy was always there. Any situation that we found ourselves in, he was always there, you know what I mean? He -- that's why I really hate that we didn't get in to become supervisor; I (inaudible). Boy, a missed opportunity.
STEVENSON
So he was a real advocate, it sounds like.
MCCLAIN
Yeah. And sharp, really was -- I don't know if you've had an opportunity to --
STEVENSON
No, he hasn't been interviewed.
MCCLAIN
Is he still living?
STEVENSON
I think so, but I think the stroke debilitated him.
MCCLAIN
Yeah, because he was sharp; he was really -- he helped me -- what I did was I kind of just told my staff, I said, "Here's a man, he's running for office, he's in office, in the Council," and every time we'd call him, he comes through for us.
STEVENSON
OK. Why don't we stop for the day, and -- [END OF Clifford McClain Session Two]

1.4. Session 3A ( August 7, 2006.)

MCCLAIN
Yeah, this was my class I was telling you about. Byron Simmons belongs in there, he didn't make it that day.
STEVENSON
That's a nice [truck?]. You ready?
MCCLAIN
Yeah.
STEVENSON
Good morning.
MCCLAIN
Good morning.
STEVENSON
I am continuing the interview with Cliff McClain on Monday, August 7. And I'd like to spend this session wrapping up and doing some follow-up questions. Looking back, can you tell me what you think the long-term legacy is of the Black Congress?
MCCLAIN
Well, the long-term legacy is that it demonstrated that varied aspects of the community could come together and could work together, and could benefit by such an association. I think, as maybe a fallout from that effort -- I think that it spoke volumes to the fact that groups, even dissimilar groups, could come together and work together. So it probably made it more difficult for people to speak against the NAACP, the Urban League, Core, and so forth, you know, working together. And even to the point of the churches. So I think that's what it gave to me, I mean, if there was ever a discussion about, let's work with this group, and someone said, well, we can't -- that was not a valid argument, because it had been demonstrated that these various and varied groups came together and worked together, even though there was conflict -- there was some serious conflict between some of the groups -- they were still able to get beyond that.
STEVENSON
Anything that we can take from those days that would be instructive for dealing with some of the challenges we're facing now in the community?
MCCLAIN
Yes. One thing is that we have more in common than we have that separates us. And that we really can get more done if we collaborate and cooperate. Even now, working in the field that I'm in, collaboration is key. Some funding sources, they look for collaboration; they want to see something of groups coming together, organizations working together in a true collaboration. So -- and I think the idea of collaboration helps in the broader community as well, because oftentimes, what happened was co-opting, but collaboration is a much better situation. So hopefully we can all see that. It just makes me feel good to see -- and I really believe this is a good thing that you're doing -- is because I'm seeing a lot of young people who are interested in doing the work, and perhaps if they see something like this, because it may not be presented to them in a way that they can understand, by just their normal day-to-day carryings-on, but here, they could see, and maybe get an in-depth view of something that happened in the past that they could. Because at least, oftentimes at least, in this work, what you have to have is faith. You have to have faith in the fact that your cause is just, faith and the fact that you will overcome, because sometimes it looks so difficult. And so when you can see something that says, "Ah, it can be done." It was done in this context, so...
STEVENSON
OK. In our last session, you talked about a lot of groups, and work you did with at-risk youth. And you talked about some of those groups -- California Council on Youth, California Youth Homes. Could you talk a bit more about that? And also, again, some of the things that worked when you were working with youth at risk in those days -- what can we take from that for dealing with some really serious problems? And yeah, if you could say some more about maybe some other groups you worked with as well?
MCCLAIN
Well, I tell you, if -- I keep saying I'm going to write a book, and I said I was going to call it "A Feeble Attempt." (laughter) If I could redo something, I would go back and I would really put more emphasis and effort on the work I was doing in the group homes, and working with at-risk youth. The camping trips, the things -- I think I should have been a bit more aggressive. I went and I talked to people like Elbert Hudson, who would give me $400 or $500 to get a bus, and people who -- from Golden State [Mutual Life Insurance Company] that would help me out. But what I should have done was been more aggressive, because we really needed to dedicate more resources to that effort.Now, Lou Danzler did a great job. He's one of the reasons why the name of my book will be "A Feeble Attempt." Because Lou did so much with so little, but he was very aggressive; he played the political card much better than I did. He went to some folks and got some resources and got some help, and he really parlayed it into a wonderful thing which Challengers Boys and Girls has become. We need more of that. We need -- and the thing is is that, we said, "Well, we've got the Boys and Girls Clubs, we've got this that and the other," but one of the things that we have to accept is that in this country, color does make a difference. And we can wish that it didn't, but it does. So you have to operate from that point of view. That's not to say to be anti -- I think the Muslims, black Muslim movement, would have been much stronger if it had not been so anti-white, if it had -- yes, white folks were a problem, many of them, but I think they should have been more specific; they should have said, "Now, here's George [Corley] Wallace," and even George tried to change, from what I'm understanding.And to me, when I look back on people who influence me -- Barry Goldwater had a very strong influence when I read his book, "Confessions of a Conservative," something, I can't remember the exact name of it. And it really turned me to politics, because the errors of our ways -- and when I say the errors of our ways, oftentime black people take a spectator view in this society. I used to be somewhere in that vicinity. But one day, me and the good Lord was talking, and I said, "This country is like a train," and I really thought about a situation when I was a little boy, my Uncle Paris was driving -- (telephone ringing) -- I'll call you back. Driving while drunk. And we were on Central Avenue, I never will forget coming down Central Avenue going north, and I looked over and he had fallen asleep, and so I just reached over, turned the key, and grabbed the steering wheel. And he woke up and cussed me out. But I was just a kid, I was maybe nine, ten years old, but that was the thing that I thought to do. So as I'm thinking about this train that I see heading for a collision -- and I really did see this country coming to a point, because I knew as a young man that I didn't want to grow up in this repressive environment, and I -- anything I could do to change it, I was from -- whatever. And like Malcolm [X] said, by any means necessary. And I know I wasn't the only one.So as I saw this trainwreck, the good Lord said to me, "Well, where are you?" And I thought, I'm on that train. So then, you know, the analogy of what I did with my uncle to save our lives, you know, I have to do here. I'm like, "Well, you better try to grab ahold of that steering wheel or do something." Because you too are on this train. So in that, we have to take some responsibility for making this change, and today, I truly believe that white folk are not our problem. I really -- I think we've moved beyond that, because we have the resources -- I mean, I spent two weeks in the Hamptons this June, and I saw black people -- I mean, they're living as large as anybody else. (laughter)So we have the resources. It's just -- like I said, taking some responsibility, and we have to look at that lesser accomplished group within our ranks. We can no longer look at these kids -- and the rappers have -- they've done some things that are offensive, yes. They curse a lot. But they've told the truth about a lot of things, and I will never forget Coolio [Artis Leon Ivey, Jr.], because I wasn't really into -- my son was into rap, and I'm trying to hear, what the heck is he listening to? And I remember, I heard this record by Coolio, and it was called A Can of Corn. And it made me cry, because it talked about a young man, on a good day, would go into the cupboard and find a can of corn. My kids, it's like -- some of them don't even want to eat leftovers, you know what I mean? It's like -- I mean, I have never -- I don't believe I've ever gone hungry because there was nothing to eat. It might have been, I didn't want what was there, I was being stubborn, you know -- which I finally gave in, I'm sure. But it's just to think that there are -- and some of the work that I've done when I was with the Taking Our Community Back campaign, and working in Avalon Gardens, I got a chance to see up close some of the despair and hardship that many families are going through.But worse than that, I had an incident at -- when I was working with Youth Gang Services, I was at a school -- because what I did in Youth Gang Services, they said, "We're going out here to try to do something to prevent gangs, prevent these kids --" And I thought, I said, "Well, the best place to do that would be in continuation schools," because that's where most of the kids go -- at least these kids are going to school. But then when they get out of school, they go back to the block with their homies. And maybe if we give them something positive, they can take that back. And I didn't realize how strong that influence was, going both ways, until one day I went over to Jordan Downs, and two very impactful things happened to me. One, I was also working on the SARB, Student Attendance Review Board, I was a member of that. And we had this kid, and so we had a group of kids, and I said, "Well, I'll go and check on these few." So I went to Jordan Downs, and I went to a unit that said this is where this kid lived, and I went to the door, and I didn't knock, because I said, "No one lives here. I know no one lives here." This has to be an abandoned building. And as I was walking away, I heard something. So I did go to the door and it was open, it was ajar, and I just kind of pushed it, and there were some kids. And there were little stair-steps, and I come to find out the kid that I was looking for was there, but he was babysitting his siblings, that's why he wasn't going to school. Didn't know where his mom was; there was no lights, there was -- I mean, it was just -- again, I cried. It was so depressing.And then, coming out of Jordan Downs, I saw a young man who went to -- was in one of my groups over at Simon Rodia [Continuation School], which is Jordan's continuation school. And when I saw him, I said, "Hey," I started going towards him, and he ran. So I was at Jordan Downs, I went to five different continuation schools, one day a week, and I guess Simon Rodia was my Tuesday or Thursday or Wednesday or whatever, so that next week when I went to the school, I saw him, and I said, "Hey, man, why did you dis me like that? I came, I wanted to talk to you." He said, "Mr. McClain, you had on a suit and tie, so you looked like the Man." (laughter) He said, "Man, if I'd have come over to there talking to you, I might have gotten a little flack, wanting to know why I'm talking to the Man." So there was -- it was like, whoa, you know, is it that bad? And I think that's something else that we have to deal with. We have to break down some of these stereotypes.And I know I have a daughter that is -- she just got her Master's from Tulane [University], she did her undergrad work and was magna cum laude at Spelman [College], and she's probably going to go and do her doctorate at George Washington [University]. Brilliant young lady -- I'm not just saying that because she's my daughter. But I remember having to chastise her early on, probably in ninth grade, because she said to me one day -- I was talking to her and I corrected her, and she said, "You just want us to talk white." Boy, did I go off. I said, "Since when do white folks have a lock on standard English? As much as you want to spend money, you better speak the money language." (laughter) So anyway -- and it must have took, because later on in life, she understood. But we have to tear down some of these stereotypes, because we have some kids that hold desperately to that. Because I guess that's all they have.So they've got to -- so what we have to do is we have to show them, no, no, no. I'm sorry, I know it's painful, but like my teacher, Miss Nellie Render, would do: she would not accept anything less, and she worked you hard enough to get you to the point where you understood. She put in the time and the energy -- I don't know how that lady -- she used to come dressed, hair in place, and she would leave somewhat (inaudible), and I wonder how she did that, because we worked her. (laughter) I mean, we worked her. But she -- that was -- she thrived on that. And I -- as I look back on my fellow students at 49th Street [School], she did a good job. She did a tremendous job. As did many people around; when I look at [Thomas] Jefferson High School, there was a lady -- I never had her as a teacher, but I saw her from afar, and I heard all of this acclaim she was given from my fellow students. Her name was Mama Campbell, and that lady -- she was just a beacon. And -- but I do remember Coach Brice Taylor, and I did have the opportunity to be very close to -- almost too close from time to time, because he'd hit you with that numb, he was born with a deformed hand. (laughter) But I mean, you had people who wouldn't accept less there. And I remember, even the custodian at Jefferson High School, Frank, he had -- and that was one of the things that really helped me to make the decision to do youth work, because Frank didn't have a PhD; Frank probably might not have had much more than a high school education, but he had wisdom and he had the students interests at heart, and I can remember him counseling us on many occasions. I mean, people, when they got in a little trouble or had a little difficulty or something, they would come to Frank, and he would talk to them and make a lot of sense.So we do, as a community -- we keep talking this -- it takes a village to raise a child -- we really need to put that into practice. George McKenna used to always challenge me, we'd be sitting up at a Brotherhood Crusade board meeting, and I'd be telling about how good my girls were doing, and what they were doing, and he'd say, "What about little Bubba?" or whatever name he'd used, and I said, "What?" "What about little Bubba, the little guy down on the corner? Doesn't have a daddy, doesn't have all that going on. What you gonna do about him?" I said, "Well, George, I'm doing what I can to take care of my household." He said, "Look, if you don't bring Bubba along, your daughters are not going to be able to come home; they're not going to be able to park them BMWs in the driveway and have those Blaupunkts be there when they come back out. Which is true, and we really -- we do, we have to do all that we can. Like the Lou Danzlers, who took his truck and put all the kids in it and took them wherever. I did -- I didn't have a truck, but like I said, I'd go to Elbert and get a bus, and later on I found out how you could go to the politicians and get some buses, and I started moving things around so maybe I'd get one in the 15th district, and then we'd go and ride over into the 8th district and pick up some kids, and then maybe we'd start in the 8th district, get one from there, and come and pick up the kids at the 15th. So we'd just kind of move it around, because you could get from each council district so many buses, so we were able to work that.
STEVENSON
OK. Would you say, if I were to ask you about your overarching philosophy for dealing not only with at-risk youth, but also at-risk families, would be to bring along those that are at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder, or whether employment, whatever, and like you said, putting into practice, it takes a village not only to raise a child, but a whole community.
MCCLAIN
Right, yeah. And I think the church is the best place for that, because I know it happened in my family. My mother was a single mom, and I know my church, Calvary Baptist Church -- I'll never forget that church, it was on 53rd between -- 52nd Place, between Wads -- what is that? -- Wadsworth [Avenue] and Central [Avenue], and those people just embraced us. My mother was a beautiful black woman, and I know that often the tendency is for men to try to see what benefit it might be, you know, to embrace, but I didn't see that. I mean, these were folks that were genuinely interested in us on our behalf, and I mean, that's one of the reasons why -- I don't know if we talked about this, but that's one of the reasons why I wasn't able to relinquish my religious beliefs as I picked up my political beliefs.I believed in black power, I believed in all of the things Malcolm talked about, but I couldn't give up my Christianity, because it had worked for me. I mean, I had seen so much good that it overcame -- I saw the Brennans, and I saw the different ones that were doing the stuff, whatever they were doing. But I mean, we all make mistakes. Like Jimmy Swaggart. It's -- there are some issues that I have with the church, but it's with church members that I have the issues. I think the church is an institution that can take us where we need to go, because the philosophy is there. Your basic philosophy is to help your neighbor. Actually, it's to hold your neighbor in higher esteem than you hold yourself, which is a difficult thing to do in this country, because you don't get that support from anywhere. If you adhere to the doctrine, then you can do that, and that's what's actually necessary. I have this cartoon in my head, and this came about because I was working in Compton, or -- yeah, I probably was working in Compton.And this thing just came on me, about this -- it takes a village. And some of these kids are so bitter, and rightfully so, if you can see how they came up, how neglected they were, and how the adults in their environment, whether you be police, teacher, social worker, neighbor, saw this abuse, and did nothing, said nothing. So I mean, kids are -- they're not stupid, and they can see that, and then quite naturally, at the end of the day, you're saying, "Wait a minute, now y'all see all this and you're saying nothing? Only time you go off is on me." They get kind of calloused. So in this callousness, I just saw this kid standing, and he had rocks in his hands, and there were other kids coming, and he was throwing it at them. And he was saying, "This is my village. Go find your own." So, you know, it was just a thought, 'cause really, we do; we have an obligation. And I think -- because some of these youngsters are so bright -- you know, I took a group of kids, and I have a friend that's all -- every time he introduces me, he tells people, "Cliff McClain was doing this way back when; he had some Bloods over here, some Crips over here, we took them on a trip, and no problems." Because my thing was, I'd tell the kids, it doesn't matter whether you live in Nickerson [Gardens] or in Avalon Gardens. Y'all have the same situation going. Only thing is Nickerson is a little larger. You're in an economic situation where you need, your family is experiencing some difficulty, you probably don't have as strong a family structure as many folks do. So if your mother moved to Avalon, you'd be a Crip, and if she moved to Nickerson, you'd be a blood. You're not having anything to do with that. Around here, "I'm a Blood; I'm a Crip." And I'd tell him, I said, "The gang that you're in is my gang, and this is the way we do it." And they would come in, you know.The thing that -- I guess the point I want to make is that these kids need -- these families need leadership, and we can provide it. I mean, I remember we did this program, it was LA Bridges -- this was another program I was involved in through community development department. And this young lady comes from a fine family; she was running one of the programs, because each middle school -- well, not each, but certain middle schools within the city had this LA Bridges program. And her school was Bret Harte [Junior High School], and I know back in the day, Bret Harte was sort of on the upper crust. But any rate, so we had these kids, and we were taking them to Washington, DC, there was a program -- I can't remember the name of the program right now, but it was a program that took them to DC, they met with Congressmen, and they met with their Senator, and it was really a great, great program. And they talked about issues, and they presented some issues to their elected officials, and it was really just a great program.But this young lady, who came from wealth -- her family had -- they owned a Golden State Mutual, so I mean -- but it was really something, how she took her kids, took them shopping, money out of her pocket, getting them ready for this trip to Washington, and she was so flabbergasted, because one of the young ladies that she went to pick up to take to buy some clothes confided in her, when she took them to Robinson's or Macy's or whatever, that that's the first time she'd shopped in a store, she'd always shopped at a swap meet. I mean, it was something. It really kind of floored her, but it wasn't a shock to me, but it was one of those -- hmm. Because there's probably a lot of other kids. And it's like, until I say that, to say there are some basic things that we need to do. I know there used to be programs where they taught kids how to set tables -- I mean, they just went the basic manners thing, and I don't know where that is now, but we're always saying, you know, "What happened to please and thank you?" Well, it was taught. I mean, it's not a natural thing for you -- unless you've got it at home, some of us, you've got it at home. But then there are some homes that are in such disarray that that might not be -- you know, a good day is just you don't get cussed out. (laughter) We get to thank you and please much later on, maybe.
STEVENSON
Yeah. I'd like to ask you, as opposed to 30 years ago, what are the new challenges to dealing with at-risk youth, including gangs, that you didn't see then? I'd like to know your thoughts on that.
MCCLAIN
Well, today -- there's a real disconnect. I even hear adults -- there's a young man that said he wanted to be a police officer, and some adults in the community were -- I mean, I couldn't really understand where they were coming from. They thought that was a no no. And -- now I know from the kids, this has been for some time that this chasm has been there. But for the adults to feed into that, that bothers me, because their despair runs so deep -- because I can remember, back in the day when I was a kid, that there was some folks who had little hope for themselves, but they had great hope for me. There was a lot of fear and apprehension, whether it was about me being able to survive to get to a point where I could do whatever it was for me to do. But to just have that much despair going, to where the adult can't find uplifting words for the kids -- that bothers me. So we really need to work on that.My thing is that until we assume the responsibility for public safety, we're going to have this mess that we have. And we have to assume some responsibility, because without public safety, what else can you have? I can remember, when I was at Dominguez High School, the coach said one day, he says, "Man, with this gang truce, I'm going to have the best team --" and they did, went to state, I think they took state -- because the kids were afraid to stay after school to practice, because they had to go home. So rather than come to school there, they would go somewhere else, or they wouldn't play. So when we can get our communities safe, and -- safe.We are the problem, as again, I said, white folks are not our problem at this particular point in time. We need to really work on us. We need to take some of those Operation Bootstrap and things that we did, and we went out and we tried to talk to white folks about straightening up their act. We need to do some home cleaning. And as you said, we need to look at the families, because I can't remember who it was, but I read somewhere, and then a guy was talking about the levels of a acculturation. And he was saying that there are some folks that have not made the transition. I mean, they are really a subculture. And that's -- I mean, there are some things that I will never give up, you know what I mean, sometimes I listen to -- what is it? -- 88.1 [KKJZ Radio Station], the Jazz program, and some of the music that I hear is like -- I just turn it off and listen to my CDs. Thank the Lord that the Blue Note stuff and the -- I can't remember -- Impulse stuff, all that old stuff they have on CD now, so I can hear my Trane [John Coltrane] and my Miles [Dewey Davis] and my Lee Morgans and my -- you know. (laughter) So there's some things -- but that belongs to everybody. That's not just a black thing. There are white people who appreciate jazz.But I'm just talking about my -- and that's to say that white folks can't play jazz. But this is what I grew up on, and this is what got me through. And I just -- I'm not going to give that up, so I'm not saying that you -- and really, I put it on a higher plane anyway. Yes, I like [Ludwig van] Beethoven and [Johann Sebastian] Bach, but I like [Thelonious] Monk and Trane too. So -- but the point I'm trying to get to though is that there are folks who have not -- it's not so much -- it's like, OK, so you like to eat hot-water cornbread or collard greens, and whatever. That's fine. I love it too. But you need to understand that all that pork is bad for you. There are other things that you can do. And still they're talking the salt pork and putting it into greens -- maybe you can take some smoked turkey wings or something. So I don't know if I'm making the point.
STEVENSON
Yes, you are. OK, let me go back to something you said about not leaving your Christianity behind when you became politically involved, and I take it that you saw other people who perhaps did live their religion behind. Do you see that that has changed at all, with people that are becoming politically involved today?
MCCLAIN
Yeah. I hear -- like when I hear [Harold] Ford [Jr.] speak, I mean, it really just -- it just knocks my socks off. And I'm a Republican, but it knocks my socks off to hear that young man, and to hear his beliefs come through. So one of the things that -- see, the whole thing of the black power, I think one of the strongest things, and one of the things that was left out of the history books, and one of the things that we don't talk enough about, one of the groups, which was really one of the groups that I idolize, and that's the Deacons of Defense. These were church folk who had an influence, because I remember when I was in Louisiana, and a young man had gone berserk, and he'd shot up a whole bunch of folks, and the police went to the Deacons of Defense to go and see if they could handle the situation. And they did; they went and they handled the situation. And I thought that was -- I said, "Wow, now that's a step in the right direction."
STEVENSON
Now, who comprised the core of that?
MCCLAIN
These were, as far as I know, some men of the church who decided that they were not -- I mean, they were listening to what [Martin Luther] King, [Jr.] was saying, and they were non-violent, to a point. But they also heard what Malcolm[X] said, I believe, and they were willing to defend themselves and their families and their communities. And they were not aggressive, in terms of going out, but they were men, and they were going to stand up to whatever forces came against them. And I know my father was that kind of guy, I mean, he was -- as a matter of fact, my wife, she tickles me, she says, "Yeah, that old preacher was packin'." But he just -- he had this thing about -- he just wasn't going to take any mess. They threatened to come ride a horse up in his church if he let King come and preach, and he says, "And I'll get my non-violent riflemen to blow your brains out." (laughter)
STEVENSON
OK. (laughter) Could you talk a little bit about your involvement with the Brotherhood Crusade over the years?
MCCLAIN
The Brotherhood -- it was an honor. It is an honor, to be involved in the Brotherhood. I was drafted by Mrs. [Opal C.] Jones, I'm sure, because I was working for NAPP, and she had said, you know, Walt[er Bremond] was doing this thing, and we needed to support him. So I don't know exactly how I got on the board, I was in this group, and I found myself on the board, and I really felt a part, because we went to Goleta for a retreat, to kind of really focus on what it was that we were going to do.
STEVENSON
And that's spelled how?
MCCLAIN
Goleta is G-O-L-E-T-A, I believe. It's up near Santa Barbara. And -- beautiful place, had some very interesting things happen. Had my little girl fall off a ledge and it scared me to death, but -- well, we were there for -- I was kind of lost in that -- but was to really kind of come up with a strategy about how we were going to do this thing. I couldn't understand, but now I do, why there was such a fuss about us trying to raise some money. It was like, why is everybody -- and even down to -- I can remember almost going to jail, which I could have done then, because Celes[tus King III] was alive -- we went -- who was that? -- Edison. [Southern California] Edison was really just vehement about -- they did not want to let us in for the payroll deduction thing. I mean, they fought it. And I just couldn't understand why, and as a matter of fact I made a few people very angry, former mayor Riordan was really upset with me, because we were on a program or something and I said something about United Way. Now, there were some people in United Way that I didn't know about that I met later on that were helpful to Walt, but as a whole --
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN
Hi.
MCCLAIN
Hello.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN
(inaudible)
MCCLAIN
Yeah. The what...? [END OF McClain.Clifford.3.08.07.2006-a]

1.5. Session 3B ( August 7, 2006.)

MCCLAIN
Now, where were we?
STEVENSON
Oh, talking about the Brotherhood Crusade, and this was an organizational retreat at Goleta...
MCCLAIN
Yes. But the thing was that the United Way, I felt, was unduly apprehensive about our development. And I understand; if you can have a monopoly, you want to maintain that. But I just felt, and like Walt said, he said, look, we've got to be willing to fund our own stuff, because there's some things that nobody else is going to fund. And there's enough philanthropic money out there, enough black folks giving money to United Way and whomever, to be able to do this. And so we need a Brotherhood Crusade, we need a Black United Fund. Now, the Crusade happened, and I think Danny [Bakewell] had a great deal to do with it, because we had Buck Newsome, Buck did what he could do; we had Charles Grey who did what he could do. But Danny was --
UNIDENTIFIED MAN
(inaudible)
MCCLAIN
Oh, OK. OK. [END OF McClain.Clifford.3.08.07.2006-b]

1.6. Session 3C ( August 7, 2006.)

STEVENSON
OK. Charles Grey?
MCCLAIN
Yeah. And so when Danny came, it was really something, because I knew Danny, and I didn't know that he had the ability to do this. I mean, I'd seen him operate, but I'd never seen him operate on this level. And he came and he said he wanted the opportunity, so I said, hey, I support you. And he took it, and he just blossomed before our eyes. I mean, he went places that I just never thought we'd go. And did some things and developed some relationships, and just -- he had this thing -- I called him the Leverage King; he knows how to take what he has and leverage it to make it better.
STEVENSON
At this retreat, who else was in attendance? Mr. Bremond, of course, Danny; who were the other --
MCCLAIN
Opal -- no, I don't think Danny was there, because Danny had not come on the scene yet. Yeah, Buck was there, Opal was there. Who else was there? Probably [Edward] Abie [Robinson]. Could have been -- because at that time, Elbert Hudson was a part of the board, I even believe -- what's his name? -- [Herb] Carter, what was Carter's first name? -- Carter, he used to be -- he left the Brotherhood, he became a chairperson or -- yeah, I think he was chairman of the United Way for awhile -- Herb, Herb Carter. Herb Carter. Norman B. was there.
STEVENSON
Is that Houston?
MCCLAIN
Yeah, Norman B. Houston. Probably Cliff Jones.
STEVENSON
Other women that were in attendance, besides Opal?
MCCLAIN
Maybe. Maybe Bertha [Bremond] was there. You know, I can't really think of -- I really can't think. Nobody just jumps up. That was a long time ago.
STEVENSON
Yeah. I do have a question, though. Other than wanting to keep control or monopolize the fundraising, could you speculate on what the United Way was really afraid of?
MCCLAIN
Well, I think it's like -- oftentimes, people give money because they want to help the underprivileged, or the most needy. I think the thought was that the Crusade would show them up, would really be able to bring about some change, would do some very significant things. And then, you know, people would be able to kind of say, "Well, do I want to go here; do I want to go here?" It's almost like, do you want to go to Nordstrom's, or do you want to go to the outlets, because you might get more bang for your buck.
STEVENSON
So you think it was probably as simple as that, because certainly there have been other racial/ethnic groups, like say the Jewish community, who had fundraised around a racial/ethnic group.
MCCLAIN
Well, and the thing is is that I believe the Jewish group was a national -- you know, they always put -- the Jews take Israel, and whether they believe in it or not, they put that national or international thing up there. And -- but we still don't do that. I don't know; I kind of feel that that's coming.
STEVENSON
Making it global rather than local, or making it national rather than local.
MCCLAIN
Yeah, yeah. I really -- but there's some serious work. But I see everything in place, though. I actually see everything in place, from -- my thing is this; I remember years ago, they used to say, "You're either going to the [United States] Army or you're going to jail," so folks would go to the Army. I see some of this gang stuff being nipped by something similar.
STEVENSON
So channeling gang members into national service, and that might not necessarily be the Army, or it might be?
MCCLAIN
Could be. But it could be a force. It's like -- you know -- let me just say this. There are some good things that happened with television, and there are certainly some bad things that happened with television. I think maybe the term might need to change, but "soldiers for hire," sort of mercenaries and all that. Or a privatized force might be a good thing in some instances, because there's a lot of corruption that's stifling the development on the [African] Continent, and I believe, really, that as the Continent goes -- I mean, look at Israel; Israel is what, that big, and here you've got this big old -- so can you imagine what could happen if you've got this organized and moving in the right direction? We'd all probably be like the Saudi elite, we'd be --
STEVENSON
Right, or as the Native American community is becoming a force.
MCCLAIN
Yes. And I'm a Republican, and I go to the conventions, and they have the biggest ramp and the biggest strawberries covered with chocolate. (laughter) I'm looking, going, "Where are the poor folk?" I went in there; they're all wearing Armani, you know. So, hey. (laughter)
STEVENSON
OK, well, I think I'd like to wind it up by asking you about your more recent political involvements, and also if you could talk about -- there were -- Neighbor to Neighbor, but any groups that you've worked with that are dedicated to community empowerment, and actually, the Brotherhood Crusade falls in that category too.
MCCLAIN
Well, Neighbor to Neighbor was a good effort, I really -- that was one of the things that I thought [Richard J.] Riordan messed up on. He had an excellent opportunity, because [Thomas] Bradley had put this force together, we were working with people in the community, and people were really getting a feel for coming together. We had an opportunity as well because we had a youth component where we were taking these high school students to elementary schools, paying them to work on the campus and tutor -- it could have been a great effort, I believe.
STEVENSON
And what year was this program?
MCCLAIN
That was in '92, I believe. And -- well, it was right after the [Rodney] King, and just before the Reginald Denny trial. So -- and it worked, because we -- and there were some people who were really down on it, saying that we were working for the man. We were working for ourselves; we didn't want our community torn up. If we wanted some issues to explode about, it wasn't because some black guys were going to go to jail for jumping on some white guy; that's no reason to -- I mean, go to jail, if you -- I mean, I understand if you're mad and all that, but still, I was really appalled at the display. It was really sickening. But -- so the thing, too -- there was another thing, I mean, the Neighbor to Neighbor thing was a good thing, and we put some resources together, we took some community organizers, black and brown, and put them out there, and we really -- we had the opportunity to alleviate some of this tension between blacks and browns as well; we had an opportunity to kind of sit down as a neighbor to talk about some standards.So one of the things that tickled me is that this is a group that I really think we should have put some money into. We had that Taking Our Community Back campaign. And we didn't put any money -- and I became the executive director, and I think all they did was give me somewhat of a salary, and that was it. I didn't have any real help. I could go to Brenda [Marsh-Mitchell] and get her to twist some arms and do some things, but outside of that, I didn't have near the help that I needed. And one of the things that I found -- I remember going down on -- I think it was 88th or 89th Street -- no, going that way was going -- so probably 87th Street -- going down towards Central, and there's this nice house, painted yard, immaculate, and this little lady who was a widow, and they probably bought that house years ago and it was paid for, so she can do pretty good with her Social Security and whatever, so she's not hurting. But I stopped, I said, "Ma'am, how you doing?" She says, "I'm fine." I says, "I'm trying to do a survey trying to find out what you think the problems are in your community." She says, "Them," and she pointed to some Mexicans. And I said, "What?" She says, "They hang their clothes on the fence, they do this; they got chickens in their yard..." I said, "Ma'am, when did you come here?" She says, "I came --" '40-something, whatever. I said, "I kind of remember some chickens and things..." and she had to laugh herself, because in a sense, where a lot of the immigrants are is where we were when we came here.And yes, we've moved, we've progressed, but you know, you've got to help people. And I think really -- like my mother helped a lot of Jewish families, 'cause she was a domestic. A lot of the immigrants can help our families. And so I mean, I think there's this process that we could go through if we would that could be helpful to everybody. So rather than being upset with folks -- and I'm not saying -- I don't believe that you -- well, talking about politics -- one of the things that I believe that I would advocate for is the taking of Baja California, and making it a part of California, annex it into California. Now, that's going to create a problem, because people can come over from the mainland readily, but, you know, the thing is is that if we just went by the rules that we have in place -- if you act up -- I don't mind people, if people come and they try to do the right thing, fine. But if you come and you're acting up, God deal with you.But how often do we allow stuff to go on as long as it's contained? Now, the minute you go to Westwood and you start acting up and acting the fool, we're going to come down on you real hard. Go down to Santa Monica Bay, and... But if you stay out there in Compton, or if you keep it Inglewood, or you keep it down in South LA, it's OK. So we -- I think that's where the problem lies, is that we don't regulate as we should. And the only way we're going to really ever be able to regulate is to -- for one thing, you have to increase your constituency. When you're talking about law enforcement, they talk about community policing, we ought to have truly community policing, the community's involved. This was one of the things that Mr. [Bernard] Parks and I used to have a problem with. And I love Bernie, I do. But my thing to him was, Bernie, you need to let me help you hire and fire. As a community, I need to be able to have some input. Now, I'm looking for -- with John Mack, I'm looking for a change. Now, I don't know -- as a matter of fact, I've been threatening to go down and talk with him for awhile, and I do intend to. I'm wondering if there's some effort in the community that we might need to have.
STEVENSON
Well, vis-à-vis your definition of true community policing, how do you deal with the LAPD culture, historical culture? Is that a problem in implementing true community policing? And how do you do that?
MCCLAIN
Cultures change. Cultures change -- cultures truly change. Case in point: we had, we have had, two Secretaries of State of color [Condoleeza Rice and Colin Powell], in an administration that don't like black people, so they say. Two key -- had a Secretary of Education of color. Then you go back to Ron Brown, you know what I mean? So we've had some changes in the political culture, and we can have some changes in the police culture. And the way you do it is, in Los Angeles, you recruit from within. The reason they go to Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, other places, is they got some folks that can have the mentality that they feel they need to have things work. I believe, because I happened to be able to sit in on an interviewing panel -- and it was so funny, I've never seen so many white people who had black friends -- I mean, that was how they started out -- some of them might have even said they were raised by -- (laughter). But that was a very important statement to make.But we hired this young man who grew up in the neighborhood, he became a senior lead officer -- he was great. Then he promoted and went on, but I mean, that's OK. But there should have been 10 or 12 behind him to fill in his spot. But we need to have young people who are willing to do the job. I started going in law enforcement, but what kept me out of law enforcement is, I know I would have been trigger happy; I would have just shot somebody. Unintentionally, but they would have made a wrong move, reached for a cigarette, or did something, and I would have shot them, because I'm going to hurt you before you hurt me. So -- but so therefore, I didn't go into it, because I knew -- and I think there are people that need to be screened out, certainly. And there are some folks, I think they know they don't -- but we don't have anybody, so we can lower our standards, so to speak.So what I'm saying is that we really need to -- and we need to start -- we need to do this at home, need to do it in the church, need to do it in the school; need to have these young people understand that law enforcement is an honorable profession, and if you don't do it, we're going to get somebody that we don't want. So we really need -- and then not only that, there are various aspects of law enforcement. If I had known I could have been a ranger, I would have gone into that, because I've met some rangers, 'cause we do a lot of camping and things, I said, "Wow, now that's a beautiful profession." It just so happens I was 40-somethign when I met them. But if I had known about that in my '20s, that might have been a role that I would have taken.
STEVENSON
Lastly, would you like to say anything more about your involvement with the Brotherhood Crusade?
MCCLAIN
Yeah, the Crusade is really like home. I mean, yes, it's Walt's baby; it's Danny, he's put the finishing touches on it. So it belongs to them, but I feel I have a part. I would not want to see it go away. I do want to see it prosper, because I feel that the Crusade is the place -- I mean, there are some things that I -- what I would like to see with the Crusade, I would like to see us come to a point where we could sit the Al [Alfred S.] Moores and the Dr. Martins and the George McKennas down, and the Bertha Bremonds -- and I say Bertha because she was a teacher par excellence. Bertha, she really -- she's someone that I really wish we could duplicate, as far as teachers are concerned. And there's others, to sit them down and say, "Hey, what do we need to do?" Have them come up with some plans, with a plan of action. Sort of like what Minister [Louis] Farrakhan was talking about when he was saying we want to sit -- but you want to also be able to have -- and this is what Walt showed me -- you've got to have money, because when you come up with a plan, then the next thing is, how do you implement it? And you don't need to have to spend a whole lot of time trying to run out and find ways, because there are some people who will say, "Well, I'll fund this, but I'm not going to fund that."So you've got to be able to reach in your own pocket, because some of the things that we may want to do may be very radical, because -- well, some of the stuff that we did, going to take a radical move to get us out. And when you talk about how many dropouts we have, when you talk about the kids -- I mean, I went to -- my daughter graduated from Tulane, Tulane had a thing over in Century City a couple of years ago, had a thing a couple of years ago for the parents and alumni, and I went to it, and the guy was saying, "It's going to take a 1400 SAT score to get in," not only into Tulane but into [University of California] Berkeley and Stanford [University] and a whole bunch of schools, it's going to take that, and we've got kids that are barely making a 700. So, you know, we really have a ways to go, and we'd better hurry up and get there.
STEVENSON
OK. All right, thank you, Cliff.
MCCLAIN
OK. (laughter) [END OF McClain.Clifford.3.08.07.2006-c END OF Clifford McClain Session 3]


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