Interview of Werner Hirsch

1.1. Session 1 ( November 6, 2006)

BURKE

I'm here in Dr. Hirsch's living room in his home in Los Angeles which is just north of the UCLA campus and we're doing our first interview for the UCLA oral history program and I think we're ready to get started. Dr. Hirsch, why don't you tell me a little bit about your family background?

HIRSCH

Well, I was born in 1920, June 10, 1920 in a little community in Germany, a village called Linz Am Rhein, different from Linz in Austria which is rather infamous. My family, or at least I can trace it back, my grandfather was born in 1853 in an adjacent village. I never met him. He was no longer alive, nor was my grandmother from my father's side, and I went to a school in Linz and recent correspondence, unexpected, from what might be the headmaster, or mistress. The name of that school was Martinus, M-A-R-T-I-N-U-S Gymnasium, which is basically a high school and was forced to leave in 1936, having been unable to go to school for the better part of half a year. And this communication that I got very unexpectedly about two months ago, approached me that I apparently, was the last living Jewish student in Linz, and they had decided to celebrate this year their 300th years existence, and will publish --

BURKE

Of the school, you mean.

HIRSCH

Of the school, and they will publish a volume in connection with this event, a book about eleven former students of the last 300 years of which the school is particularly proud. and the title of this book is Menschen in Ihrer Zeit and the theme is Life with Its History -- Shaping the Future, which basically means they must have grown and become more sophisticated than ever in my days. (laughter) And it will include my chapter. They apparently -- it was an e-mail that contacted me got me through the Web, found a book that I recently had co-edited with the former head of the university, University of Geneva, Luc Weber, and they wanted to get permission to reproduce a chapter, which I obviously agreed to with no interest in it not being read. And they asked me as a former student would I be willing to tell their present students something, and I again agreed and if it's of interest to you it's only about a few words, because as you see they're very interested in stimulating the young people, and there's -- the statement that they wanted was about the life for which a school today should be responsible, of these young people, and what I wrote to them, and I shortened it and I said that the school of today should prepare your students so that you can contribute to the intellectual, cultural, and economic betterment of society through education, fostering respect for each other and justice for all. The book was published in 2006.

BURKE

That's very nice, and I think you're a very appropriate person for them to ask.

HIRSCH

Well, you're very kind. Anyhow, usually I do not respond but I thought as you will see I have certain misgivings, but the young generation deserves to have some response from me.

BURKE

Now, if you don't mind, can we back up a little bit and talk a little bit more about your family?

HIRSCH

yes. From my mother's side, she and my grandparents lived in a little town called Reinheim, had nothing to do with the river Rhine, and I had the good fortune of meeting both of these grandparents who also had lived for a long time in that part of Germany, so in a certain sense I go back and my family goes back quite a period in Germany.

BURKE

What did your mother's parents do?

HIRSCH

I think they also were in the same kind of dry good business, I believe. I met them when they were very much advanced in age. And my father had a brother and a sister. The sister passed away very early. I never met her. And based on some-- my father was a stamp collector and based on some envelope in his collection, I learned that apparently her husband, namely my father's sister's husband served for a while as a secretary to the founder of Zionism. He had a brother who moved in -- from Linz to Berlin and immigrated about 1933 or so to Haifa. That's where it was, that's where was my first stop. His son, who was about as close to a brother in a sense, I'm a single child, his father was a successful man. He passed away early, a heart attack. He served both as the ambassador of Israel to Norway, to Canada, and then as secretary of the Cabinet. However, as something we do not do in the western world, usually, to really be part of the government it is a custom although only a recent one because the country is so young, that you change your name. So the name Hirsch disappeared. Anyhow, gives you a little bit of a feel of that period -- and his mother is still alive. She visited here off and on and lives in Jerusalem.

BURKE

His mother you're referring to.

HIRSCH

My cousin's mother, yes. She is also in her early eighties. Now, that gives you a little bit of a feel. In Linz itself there were a number of members of the Hirsch family and most of them left in time Germany. One went to Argentina, and another one to Israel and so on. That's about what I can tell you about my father's side. My mother had, I think -- there were 11 children. One or two were killed in WWII fighting for Germany and two cousins are still alive, here one in Texas and one in Virginia.

BURKE

Now, were both your mother and father Jewish?

HIRSCH

Oh, yes.

BURKE

And where did they meet?

HIRSCH

I don't know. (laughter) Well, there was a big difference in age, by the way. My dad was born in 1880 and I think my mother was born in about 1897 or so, but this issue never came up.

BURKE

But you grew up in Linz and it's actually known as Linz on the Rhine, I believe you said.

HIRSCH

yes, you can say that, yes. Particularly to differentiate it with the Austrian Linz.

BURKE

Right, which has an association with Hitler, is that right?

HIRSCH

Exactly.

BURKE

What is that association?

HIRSCH

Well, he was born there, raised there.

BURKE

And so you grew up in Linz on the Rhine and your father had a dry goods store.

HIRSCH

Right.

BURKE

And, um...

HIRSCH

My mother helped in it, too.

BURKE

And it was right on the town square.

HIRSCH

Exactly, yes.

BURKE

I have a picture of it, in fact, that was published in a book about Linz, is that right?

HIRSCH

yes, it's the second book.

BURKE

Oh, OK.

HIRSCH

yes.

BURKE

Which is -- could you pronounce that title for me?

HIRSCH

To the best of my ability.

BURKE

(laughter) OK. Die Ehemalige Judische Gemeinde in Linz am Rhein-Erinnerung und Gedenken, and published by a couple whom I had the good fortune of meeting once. Anton, which is Anthony, and Anita Rings, R-I-N-G-S.

BURKE

Now can you translate that title for me?

HIRSCH

Yes. The One-Time Jewish... "gemeinde" is, well, in many respects "population in Linz am Rhein."

BURKE

Oh, OK. And in this book is a picture of your father's dry goods store, and it looks like a three-story building and it's right on the town square and there's a big sign on the front and it says "Josef Hirsch." And that was your father.

HIRSCH

That was my grandfather.

BURKE

That was your grandfather, excuse me.

HIRSCH

And it is like so many buildings in England and Germany and so on. That's a very old building and I believe it is basically designated as a historical building in that if you want to paint it you need a special permit, leave alone if you want to do anything major. I mean, they have the wooden part of the house on which stucco is placed.

BURKE

So if we were to go to Linz today, we would probably find this building pretty much the way it was?

HIRSCH

Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. Mainly dilapidated.

BURKE

Is that right? (laughter) So your father ran the store and your mother helped out. What was your mother's name?

HIRSCH

Toni, T-O-N-I.

BURKE

Did you also work in the store?

HIRSCH

I didn't. Well, during that short period that I couldn't go to school and leave, yes, I cleaned the floors and did all the work, and it came handy because when I later on got to Berkeley, I made a living -- just married, I made a living of mainly I cleaned houses in Berkeley and took whatever it takes. The wooden floors were one, and the other one, gardening. I put in about a day and a half a week as a gardener.

BURKE

Oh, is that right? When you were going to school.

HIRSCH

When I go now there, I still can identify the gardens that I took care of around the university.

BURKE

Now, you were born not long after the end of WWI. Germany suffered through a bad economic crisis in the early 1920's. Do you recall, or did your father ever talk about that period of hyperinflation? Do you know what effect that had on your family?

HIRSCH

Well, as I understood it, we were lower-middle class people, having a business which was reasonably stable. It was not one that would go up and down. But inflation was a great problem. I mean, somebody paid, you took the money and tried to get rid of it into something real. But I do remember, as you might know from history, this part of Germany changed hands between France and Germany quite frequently. I can remember that the French came in and we closed the shutters and all that and so on and so forth.

BURKE

Why did you close the shutters?

HIRSCH

Well, I guess my parents did because of stones being thrown or whatever it could be from the freewheeling Frenchmen.

BURKE

And was that because your family was...

HIRSCH

No, no, no. That was French, France versus Germany. There was enormous animosity between them and this was not very far from what I say was a very unstable border.

BURKE

What kind of interests did you have when you were a child?

HIRSCH

I played what we call there "soccer," so much so that I broke a wrist playing it.

BURKE

Oh, is that right?

HIRSCH

Now, I -- my mother was in many respects an interesting intellectual. I mean, she had no college education. I'm the first one who went to college, but she would fill whole little diaries with quotes or interesting paragraphs and so on from her reading, and --

BURKE

So she was very well-read.

HIRSCH

Yes, but not just superficially in terms of reading novels, but really trying to benefit from ideas.

BURKE

And what about your father?

HIRSCH

Well, he was a businessman and at least over the last ten years I was there he had a car and a chauffeur and he was very well-known in the community and lived there all his life, many friends and so forth.

BURKE

So the store must have been doing well.

HIRSCH

Well, this was a small community with not that many customers. And I think he also traveled some. He had clients that he served.

BURKE

Now, um, the Nazis came to power in 1933, and you were 13. Talk about what happened at school.

HIRSCH

Well, again, really not too much because this was a community where one was part of, and give you a set of answering it that way, mention the only time since I left Germany that I returned for three days, was when I was invited to a conference where the president of the German central bank, what they call Reichsbank and I would be speakers and it was on that occasion that these people who are responsible for the book on the Jewish Community. I think the German government financed this. There was an interest in this kind of soul-searching efforts.

BURKE

And by this, you're referring to...

HIRSCH

The one about the Jews of Linz. He was there -- my dad knew him and had visited them, and they were at the --

BURKE

I'm sorry, your father knew...

HIRSCH

This man, Rings.

BURKE

Oh, he knows the author of this.

HIRSCH

And they had been -- I think Mrs. Rings had been the historian of the town, and if the Germans collect something, they collect all of it. Every meeting of the city council were all there. And you're smiling and you can because the story really enlightened me. The meeting was in Frankfurt, which is also the place where the German Reichs bank was.

BURKE

How many years ago?

HIRSCH

Beg pardon?

BURKE

What year was this?

HIRSCH

I would have to check. Most likely about twelve to fifteen years ago.

BURKE

OK.

HIRSCH

And I had informed them that I was coming and they had to pick me up at the railway station, which Linz apparently has, in the car, so I had to go from Frankfurt by train and change -- I had to change trains to get from Frankfurt to Linz. And this was really very interesting to me. The train from Frankfurt to Koblenz was about thirty minutes late, and the Germans were known in my youth for being punctual!

BURKE

Right, right.

HIRSCH

Well, I missed the connection. (laughter) And had to get the station master to find these people out in Linz in order to tell them that I will have to take the next train and it was an interesting experience for me.

BURKE

But you did make it out to Linz.

HIRSCH

Oh, yes. But the interesting thing is, I mean, countries like Germany and Italy were known that they made their railway be punctual.

BURKE

Right, right. And of course the one time that you back there and try to take a train, what happens?

HIRSCH

Well, just (inaudible) the country has changed enormously. Germans were hard-working people. They were giving you a day's work for a day's pay, and that not in any way reflects any value judgements of mine, but there has been an enormous shift as in so much of Western Europe to -- have to be careful in the language I use -- there became much greater concern egalitarianism. And therefore the bargaining between employees and employers became much more difficult, was it has been often very hard for an employer to get a day's work for a day's pay today, and that's why Germany I would assume over the last 20 or 30 years seldom got unemployment below 10-11 percent. Anyhow, I mean, that's not a value judgement. I'm talking as an economist and so Germany has changed enormously, just as it has changed. You see, during that period, we're talking about 1920 to about 1932-33, science in Germany was first class. Many of our best physicists and chemists went from the United States as graduate students to get trained there since the beginning of the postwar period, academia has been in bad shape in part because of the equality movement. Often staff and students are members of the governing board of the university.

BURKE

Now, we might want to talk more about that, if we can go back to high school experience.

HIRSCH

Well, the high school really, I was one of the boys, and there were very few girls.

BURKE

Now, were there many Jews in your high school?

HIRSCH

Oh, no, the whole community (inaudible). I would assume that in high school there might have been another eight to ten Jews or something like that.

BURKE

So not very many.

HIRSCH

And it was the only high school that was there.

BURKE

But at some point you were forced to leave your high school.

HIRSCH

yes.

BURKE

What happened? What happened leading up to that?

HIRSCH

Well, I think that although they used a very funny language in this communication that I'm talking about that came a few months ago, that my dad took me out of school. (laughter)

BURKE

Oh, is that right? But that's not really what happened.

HIRSCH

Oh, no.

BURKE

But I think you're saying that at first things were fairly normal.

HIRSCH

Oh, yes, the period -- I mean in terms of relationships during my period there, were genial in many respects because we were part of the community. And again, you can stop me because I jump ahead, but I think it's relevant, but this one time that I went back and (inaudible) was there in this little place Linz, for I think most likely from 12 pm to 3 or 4 pm, the (break in tape)

BURKE

Now, you were telling me about when you returned to Linz.

HIRSCH

Well, the vice mayor of that little town arranged for a luncheon for me in a rather fancy place, and I don't know, perhaps six to eight people who claimed to have been classmates and I don't remember them. They brought along a picture, came to that luncheon and the vice mayor had a tie for me with L on the tie, L for Linz. Anyhow, anyhow, so they were very accommodating, trying to make up for the past.

BURKE

Was there any discussion at that luncheon of the past?

HIRSCH

yes, but not of the sort that would really fit into what we were talking about, because I think both parties were somewhat sensitive to the past.

BURKE

Right, right. Well, let's...

HIRSCH

But it did make me feel good.

BURKE

Let's go back to the past, then. Under the Third Reich, what was happening at your high school? Was anti-Semitism part of the curriculum at all?

HIRSCH

No, I don't think so. And there was no change in teachers. I don't think they dismissed anybody and didn't bring anybody in. But no, that was relatively early part still. That was between 1933 and 35.

BURKE

Right, right. So, and you weren't really treated any differently than you had been in the past.

HIRSCH

At least, I do not remember that I was.

BURKE

Now, you mentioned earlier, that you were the last Jewish student to leave your high school.

HIRSCH

That's what the lady wrote. I haven't the faintest idea.

BURKE

Now, were you aware that your Jewish classmates were leaving?

HIRSCH

No, I was the last one, I guess who survived that they were able to identify, the last one in the school.

BURKE

Oh, I see what you're saying. You're the last surviving Jewish student from that high school. How is it that you were kicked out of your high school?

HIRSCH

I guess I was just told it's over.

BURKE

Do you remember that day?

HIRSCH

No.

BURKE

Do you remember if you were called into somebody's office? Or did you receive a letter?

HIRSCH

No, I don't think it was in writing. No, I don't remember that. But note that is in the neighborhood of 70-odd years ago.

BURKE

Right, right.

HIRSCH

And moreover it's something that obviously I'm not terribly keen on remembering and living down. But anyway, I think that is about most of what I can tell you about this period until about 1936.

BURKE

Do you recall actually leaving your home, packing your bags? I think you said that you left -- the first place that you went to was Triste, is that right?

HIRSCH

Well, actually, I stopped overnight in Munich where I had a cousin living.

BURKE

So you got on the train.

HIRSCH

I went on to Munich.

BURKE

Oh, you went to Munich, because as you said, there was no train in Linz at the time.

HIRSCH

Well, I don't know. (inaudible) I am not sure that we had -- I think we might have had a railroad station but not many trains, so I went from Linz to Munich, stayed overnight with these relatives.

BURKE

How could you leave it with your parents?

HIRSCH

Well, they were slow in deciding and unwinding their business and so forth, and they stayed another two years.

BURKE

But you felt that there was some urgency in your leaving.

HIRSCH

Well, no, I couldn't go to school. My life was very simple; the decision, I had no choice but I'm going to sit as a sixteen-year-old and... whereas families that had lived there, members of families who had lived in that community for 80, 90 years, their parents and so on, and they had a financial interest that you could not just leave. You wanted to sell although I don't think my parents sold anything.

BURKE

So you didn't necessarily feel that you needed to leave for your personal safety, but you couldn't go to school and there was no point in your staying.

HIRSCH

Well, what does a youngster of that age do when he or she is confined at home?

BURKE

In what way were you confined to home?

HIRSCH

What could I do? And obviously, I also was aware that I needed an education.

BURKE

Right, right. And did your parents indicate to you that they would also leave Linz at some point?

HIRSCH

Well, I think that became clear. Yes, I would leave by myself, but they would try to follow rather promptly. Fortunately, they did.

BURKE

Was that a difficult thing to do? Were you scared? On your own?

HIRSCH

Well, what you see is a strong belief of mine and value. There's an enormous value in having some hard times in your youth, because things only can go up. And it's no fun to be poor or be discriminated again, but on the other hand, if you're able to overcome those and gain internal strength, rather than the other way around, that you're born with a silver spoon in your mouth, then life may not treat you that well because you're not willing to fight for the success to the same extent.

BURKE

So it toughened you up.

HIRSCH

Beg your pardon?

BURKE

The experience of leaving.

HIRSCH

Well, I made the best of it.

BURKE

Did you have any money when you left?

HIRSCH

Well, just enough in order to get, I guess from the railroad station in Munich to the home of relatives. I don't know, perhaps 100 pounds in German money.

BURKE

And a suitcase, I imagine.

HIRSCH

But I knew that I was expected by my uncle and aunt in Haifa. So it was easy.

BURKE

So you first went to Munich.

HIRSCH

Munich.

BURKE

And you stayed with a relative there.

HIRSCH

One night.

BURKE

Oh, just one night.

HIRSCH

And then I picked up a train to Trieste and a boat from Trieste to Haifa.

BURKE

Trieste in Italy.

HIRSCH

yes.

BURKE

And then you got a boat to Haifa, which is where you had -- where you had an aunt and uncle.

HIRSCH

Where my relatives were, yes.

BURKE

OK, and this would've been on your father's or mother's side?

HIRSCH

Father. I mean, my father's brother lived there. yes.

BURKE

Your father's brother lived there. And so you were able to stay with them.

HIRSCH

Well, only for a few days, because then from there, I don't know, my parents and I together most likely had tried to make arrangements for me to be admitted as a student in the school of agriculture. I went with a clear purpose and showed up and the only trouble was I didn't know the language. (laughter)

BURKE

Well, how did you handle that?

HIRSCH

Well, again, you had no choice. This happened to me twice. I mean, once on my way to Israel, which then was Palestine, and leaving Palestine in a troop carrier -- we were just married -- for the United States and I had to learn English.

BURKE

And in Palestine, you had to learn what language?

HIRSCH

Hebrew. Modern Hebrew, and a little Arabic because I also served in the British Police--which I'll talk about later if you want to--and served in the British police force and had occasion -- I mean, the commander was an Englishman, and not the kind of Englishman that I later on met in life.

BURKE

How do you mean?

HIRSCH

Well, what did the English, who did the English send to the colonies or mandates?

BURKE

I don't know.

HIRSCH

Well, these are not necessarily the most successful people (inaudible).

BURKE

Well, let's go back to the agricultural school. You had a plan in going to Haifa and that was that you would enroll in an agricultural school. Now, did this have something to do with a Jewish agrarian movement at the time?

HIRSCH

Oh, yes, yes. Well, we had really two issues. One is that for a society that had until about the, let's see, mostly likely until about the end of WWI, being discriminated against, most professions were closed to Jews in Europe and so on and so forth, and there was a determined intellectual and practical decision to live off the land, to become really a totally different kind of a person, and to be self-sufficient insofar as food and fiber was concerned, and I think I mentioned to you at another time as I then started contemplating going to the United States, I was impressed by WWII of how people had suffered because of absence of food and fiber, so I thought that was an area in which I would like to make a contribution. So these worked together and it was a great experience.

BURKE

So, OK, you were -- you went to Haifa in 1936.

HIRSCH

yes.

BURKE

And at first you stayed with an aunt and uncle.

HIRSCH

For about two weeks.

BURKE

Oh, OK.

HIRSCH

yes.

BURKE

Where did you stay after that?

HIRSCH

Then I was in that agricultural school.

BURKE

So you did enroll in...

HIRSCH

Most likely, again, I can not at this moment find any correspondence, and most likely I had already requested admission to that school.

BURKE

Oh, I see. And so you had an idea of becoming a farmer?

HIRSCH

A farmer, oh, yes. And I did.

BURKE

In Palestine?

HIRSCH

Oh, yes.

BURKE

So what level was this school? Was it a...

HIRSCH

Well, it was one of two or three agricultural schools in Palestine in those days, and it was the best. It had been founded by Baron Rothschild and his interests, I don't know whether I should jump ahead. After about three years as a student, I was hired as an instructor there, and spent quite a bit of time and specialized in horticulture and became truly an expert in vineyards. I had learned to identify what variety of grape it was, of seventeen, by just looking at the leaves.

BURKE

Oh, is that right?

HIRSCH

yes.

BURKE

And there was a big grape-growing industry.

HIRSCH

Oh, yes. It was significant and one year I was more or less in charge of the vinery.

BURKE

Now, was this an issue at all? OK, you eventually found a home for yourself in academia, but...

HIRSCH

That was my wife. I was fortunate that she married me. (laughter)

BURKE

Oh, is that right? OK, we'll get to that later.

HIRSCH

No, I'm kidding. (laughter)

BURKE

But you had a great interest in agriculture.

HIRSCH

Oh, yes, yes. Again, you might not be able to fully appreciate that. You come out of a totally different world and here is an opportunity to enjoy working with your hands and seeing results. For me one of the great things was to be woken up at 3 am and go to the cows and milk them.

BURKE

You're serious?

HIRSCH

No, no, I mean it! Oh, yes.

BURKE

You'd never had a chance to do this in Linz. You lived in town and your father...

HIRSCH

Oh, no, no, no. We had a dog. (laughter) We had a dog, and my dad had, as I said, was being driven by a chauffeur in a car. An American car, by the way.

BURKE

Oh, is that right? What kind of American car?

HIRSCH

I forgot it. They're no longer in business. I can see it in front of me but I don't remember. It's no longer in business.

BURKE

And so this living off of the land was something that is very new and exciting for you, and you really took to it, it sounds like.

HIRSCH

That was not unusual. I mean, you had an enormous influx of people and it was a totally new world, not only moving from being an urbanized person to a farmer and so on, but it also was that you were able to supply yourself. You didn't have to depend for food or blah blah blah, or anything. You could really be independent in that sense, and you were building something. I mean, here was a country -- well, it was not a country. I don't want to go into the history of how...

BURKE

I think it was a British mandate at the time.

HIRSCH

Well, you know the British. I don't know how much you know about history, but at the end of WWI you had three or four clerks, quote unquote, in the Foreign Office who had divided the Middle East into bits and pieces and that's what we're suffering from today.

BURKE

Right.

HIRSCH

They established an Iraq, they established a Syria, they established a Lebanon and so on and so forth. All artificial. We're suffering from that today. And here we had an opportunity to help build a new country.

BURKE

Now, was this controversial?

HIRSCH

No. That was almost unanimous. No, we were running into opposition.

BURKE

Was it controversial among the Arabs?

HIRSCH

Oh, yes. You ran into opposition from them, but again, this is a difficult area. To what extent -- this was indeed a fear of losing land or a fear of becoming exposed to Western culture, and whatever political interests there were, that's a different story. But anyhow, all of us were members of an underground organization.

BURKE

Well, now, I want to talk about that but let me go back to the agricultural school, but do you recall the name of the school?

HIRSCH

Mikveh Israel. It's the source of Israel, and it's again interesting because here the name basically says that here we want to build a new society.

BURKE

And I think you said that bef- even before you graduated, you were hired as an instructor at this school. Is that right?

HIRSCH

Was a three-year curriculum, and I was hired as an instructor, yes.

BURKE

Before you graduated.

HIRSCH

No, no, after -- it was a three-year curriculum, and as I graduated after three years, I became an instructor, at the same school.

BURKE

How long did you do that?

HIRSCH

Let's see. Most likely another three or four years, and then I decided that indeed I should take the next step and get an education and I moved to Jerusalem.

BURKE

Oh, OK. Now, this -- when you were teaching, you were also farming.

HIRSCH

Well, an agricultural school is really working with your hands, planting trees, harvesting grapes and so on, and at the same time there is a curriculum that you have to educate youngsters in that way. Remember, there was no tradition. This was totally new.

BURKE

Now, did you buy property? Did you buy a farm?

HIRSCH

No, I did not. But when my parents came, they bought by that time -- they bought property and I took major responsibility for building a home for them on it.

BURKE

So your parents resettled and they fled to Haifa.

HIRSCH

Well, no, they settled in a place, I'll say ten miles away from Tel Aviv, which is south of the northern city of Haifa. This is a truly small country. You might not realize that. For example, it's so small a country, that there are spots in the middle where the whole width of the country might not be more in that area than 10 to 12 miles.

BURKE

Oh, is that right?

HIRSCH

yes, which is an unfriendly environment and a problem.

BURKE

And so did you work, did your parents buy a farm?

HIRSCH

No, they bought a piece of land in a community called Ramataim and this was in the midst of the inflation and they made the correct decision in many respects. You don't want to have cash, but you want to have real property.

BURKE

Now, you talked about working in the viticulture(?) industry. Now, where was that?

HIRSCH

My main interest as a student and instructor in this agricultural school was really centered on horticulture and it was in that connection that I was for about six years, in Mikveh Israel. That's when I did that, but during that period also I spent a lot of time freeing myself to go to what really in many respects was a new phenomenon -- collective communities, where young people would build a farm and have no private property, and usually these developed in areas where the population wasn't very friendly to it. So I helped about three or four do that, and also in order to help them have some income I would work in a private orange grove. In all, we would work about ten-twelve hours a day and would have to walk about two hours one way and the other way for a day's pay.

BURKE

Now, what was the clandestine organization that you mentioned?

HIRSCH

That is something that relates to the period that I lived in Jerusalem and this most likely was 1943. And we're really jumping. I'm glad to do it, but if it's hard for you, then stop me.

BURKE

Maybe we ought to get to that...

HIRSCH

Later.

BURKE

And I want to go back to a question that I should have asked earlier. When you moved to Haifa, was it difficult for you to get in?

HIRSCH

No, I had up to that -- most likely it took me most of the seven months or nine months since I was kicked out of school, I had to apply to British, you know, to get a permit to immigrate to Palestine.

BURKE

So you went in.

HIRSCH

I went legally, yes, yes.

BURKE

So you worked in agriculture a number of years, in the Haifa area.

HIRSCH

No, that was in Mikveh Israel, which is near Tel Aviv. You see, I landed in --

BURKE

Oh, I see. What was the name of that town?

HIRSCH

Beg your pardon?

BURKE

What was the name of that town you just mentioned?

HIRSCH

The school was Mikveh Israel.

BURKE

OK.

HIRSCH

But that was near Tel Aviv, not near Haifa.

BURKE

Not near Haifa.

HIRSCH

Right.

BURKE

Oh, OK. OK. So you worked in agriculture for a number of years, and then you said that you decided to get serious about your education.

HIRSCH

Yes, and I moved to Jerusalem, trying to combine two things. (inaudible), you realize this was during WWII and I joined the British police force, and...

BURKE

Why did you do that?

HIRSCH

Why? Well, first of all, the German Army was very close to the borders of Palestine. There was an interest in some of us being in this police force. For example, I was spending a lot of time in a station that was, oh, half a mile from the gates, called the Jaffa Gates, into the Old City of Jerusalem.

BURKE

And when you said you were spending a lot of time at a station, what do you mean?

HIRSCH

In a police station, in their intelligence unit.

BURKE

Why was that?

HIRSCH

Well, that's what I got into. You enrolled, enlist, and you go through training.

BURKE

You enlist and enroll...

HIRSCH

In the police force, the British police force, and at the end of the training period, the last thing was that one would be sent to the two weeks final; and I was sent together with eleven Arabs, as the only non-Arab, to Bethlehem and we slept in the same room for about two weeks.

BURKE

How was that?

HIRSCH

(laughter) It was different from my present life. Anyhow, so that I doubled up and started to go to the Hebrew University because I had left Germany without finishing high school, and to get into university I was trying to make up and I think I took a written examination for the London Matriculation and had trouble to get admitted as a regular student. But, so I was part-time studying at the university, full-time in the police force, and I can still see myself spending part of the night sleeping on a table in the police station.

BURKE

Is that right? That must not have been very comfortable.

HIRSCH

Well, that's when I was young. It's a different story.

BURKE

Now, I think you said that the British police force had some interest in getting -- I think you said us into the force. What were you referring to there?

HIRSCH

Well, I think it was a very difficult assignment that the British had--a mandate that involved the creation of a new nation on the one hand, and I don't have to elaborate the strains and stresses in the Arab community, religious and so on; and on the other hand, they brought from England, as they did throughout most of their colonies, a few Englishmen to be all the way from sergeants up, and but this would not be a sufficiently large police force, so locals had to come in, and that's what -- I was one of them.

BURKE

So this was a way of supporting yourself?

HIRSCH

Oh, yes. This was the way to support myself and slowly move into becoming a student at the university.

BURKE

And were you doing law enforcement type work, or were you doing surveillance type of work?

HIRSCH

No, that didn't do -- there was no separation, basically. This was a tense situation, particularly Jerusalem, and we would be responsible for policing the area. And I don't know whether I should talk about that. For example, I was on duty one night, perhaps the only officer, when a very aggressive group, the Stern Gang, of which a later prime minister, Menachem Begin, was a member if not a leader, they blew up the headquarters of the British police in my area. And well, I was on patrol. There was an English sergeant who, for reasons not clear to me, forgot his or didn't have his weapon on himself; he commanded me that the two of us should pursue, try to find the ones who had exploded any number of things in this headquarters, through a dark cemetery.

BURKE

So you were told to chase the suspects --

HIRSCH

Together with this English sergeant who didn't have a weapon. Who's that?

BURKE

No, it's not, nobody (inaudible) (break in tape) Now, was Menachem Begin one of the people you were chasing?

HIRSCH

It could have been. No, I don't think in this case, but shortly after we got married, I again was able to get a position with a British lieutenant general, recently retired, who was heading up a company that was trying to identify flowers unique to the Holy Land and sell them in Western Europe. He stayed at the King David hotel, the nicest hotel overlooking the old city, or rather, for this town. A part was occupied by the administration of the mandate, mainly Englishmen and some natives. And one day, I visited with him. Fortunately, he was in the other wing. This group, the Stern Gang, blew up the wing that the British administration was in.

BURKE

What year is this?

HIRSCH

That was Nineteen Hundred and... either late '45 or early '46.

BURKE

'45 or '46.

HIRSCH

yes, and a very large number of people got killed, and I was in the building when it exploded.

BURKE

You were in that building?

HIRSCH

That building, but not that part of the building. The Brits had the administration there, that's where they put the explosives.

BURKE

So you were not injured.

HIRSCH

I was not injured.

BURKE

What happened? Continue the story about what happened that evening. You described running through a cemetery.

HIRSCH

Oh, that wasn't evening. That was during mid-day.

BURKE

Oh, OK.

HIRSCH

Newly married. My wife was deeply concerned. She was worried, and immediately there was a curfew, and when these things happened the first thing people did was go to the store and get some fruit and food. She worried for me to get home.

BURKE

I'm sorry, who was it who went? Who went shopping?

HIRSCH

Well, both of us. I, on my way back from the place where these things happened. I mean, this was the most serious one, and my wife would go out and try to -- well, she worked at the Hebrew University.

BURKE

Did you ever catch up with the bombers?

HIRSCH

Well, that wasn't my task. By that time, I was no longer part of the police force. That was because I was working with this British Lieutenant general on his business of trying to develop a business of flowers and other things from the Holy Land that he could sell. Because I, being interested in agriculture, they thought that I really was able to identify these plants and roots and so forth.

BURKE

OK, at any rate, going back to Jerusalem, at first you had trouble getting admitted because you hadn't been able to finish high school.

HIRSCH

I was never admitted. I was only given the right as a part-time student, not as a regular student.

BURKE

Oh, I see. And this was the university --

HIRSCH

That's called the Hebrew University. That was the first university that was founded there.

BURKE

Now, you said that you wanted to get serious about your education. What kind of future did you have in mind for yourself?

HIRSCH

Well, I don't know that at that time I really was thinking very much about what future, other than that I was interested in making my contribution and I thought particularly in regard to agriculture. That's why I went to agricultural school and so on.

BURKE

And so you wanted to continue studying agriculture.

HIRSCH

Yes, but that basically meant on the undergraduate level that I would take courses in biology and botany and so on, yes. And that's why this man hired me.

BURKE

And to support yourself, you were working for the British police.

HIRSCH

Well, by that time, I had left the police force and supported myself by working with this Lieutenant General and that was mainly -- but that was for a relatively short period, let's say a year or so.

BURKE

How long did you work for the British police?

HIRSCH

I was a member of that police force for I guess about four years or so.

BURKE

And you mentioned that that was a very tense time, and as a member of this police force you were caught up in this. Talk a little bit about the politics of what was going on at that time.

HIRSCH

Well, it was a very complicated relationship between -- a local community of Arabs who had lived there and their families and there was a long history, and here you had, from their point of view, a foreign element suddenly move into the country, and Jerusalem obviously...

BURKE

The foreign element obviously being the Jews?

HIRSCH

Well, and the Brits, too. (laughter) I mean, there was a lot of fighting between the Arabs and the Brits, so much so that, particularly once the Israelis also started to be unhappy, the Brits were driven out of Palestine. So, work in a community that was very reluctant to accept the Brits or the Israelis, I learned a little Arabic and I would go out on various occasions with an Arab corporal to investigate matters and so forth and then because of the intelligence parts trying to prevent things from happening. It was a job, but I didn't stay long. I think about four years or three years and the transition was starting to be a part-time student and be able to have an income and starting to -- the beginning of my effort to become educated.

BURKE

And so you were studying part-time at Hebrew University. You weren't able to enroll as a first-time student because you had...

HIRSCH

I didn't have a high school degree. And there was -- the difference between my experience at the Hebrew University in terms of admission(?) and the University of California is rather significant.

BURKE

That's a fascinating story, and we're going to get to that in a little bit.

HIRSCH

They were really bean counters, the administrators at the Hebrew University.

BURKE

Doesn't seem very sensitive to your plight.

HIRSCH

(laughter) (inaudible), yes, makes the best of it.

BURKE

Now, you met your wife somewhere around...

HIRSCH

In Jerusalem.

BURKE

Tell me a little bit about that.

HIRSCH

Well, she had been a student at the Hebrew University and had a Master's degree there and worked as an assistant to a professor of botany and both of us went out on a blind date in Jerusalem.

BURKE

Do you recall who set you up on the blind date?

HIRSCH

No, I don't know how this happened. We either took someone out or were taken out by somebody that we knew, and as a matter of fact, I don't even know the name. And we danced together, and rather not well, and that was the beginning. (laughter)

BURKE

And your wife's name is Hilde.

HIRSCH

Esther. Well, again, both of us were born in Germany and for whatever reason we never felt that (inaudible) was right to change our names, so but except for this, and in school you particularly in Palestine in those days you had to change to a Hebrew name more or less and see that -- professionally, she published under the name of Hilde E. Hirsch, and yet, she's known as Esther Hirsch.

BURKE

And you did not take a Hebrew name either.

HIRSCH

I did it in the sense, when I was at Mikveh Israel, I adopted the name of Joseph, yet it turned out that there were a lot of people by that name. That's the story.

BURKE

So you stayed Werner.

HIRSCH

yes.

BURKE

And so you met Esther and how long after meeting did you get married?

HIRSCH

It was a couple of years or so, a little less perhaps, and then --

BURKE

You got married in Jerusalem?

HIRSCH

Yes. Oh, yes. And oh, what, nine months thereafter we were able to get a spot on a boat and embarked for Haifa.

BURKE

Well, now, tell me a little bit about what led up to that. You're talking about leaving to go to the United States, is that right?

HIRSCH

I think going from Palestine to the United States, there's a very clear objective, and again, it comes back to both of our interests in botany and agriculture and so on. We thought we would come to Berkeley for a short period to get a Ph.D. degree.

BURKE

And Esther had obtained her Master's degree from Hebrew University, is that right?

HIRSCH

Yes.

BURKE

Which was where you were studying and you both wanted to...

HIRSCH

To get a Ph.D. degree. Right.

BURKE

OK. Now, why did you think that you'd be able to do that in the United States, when Hebrew University hadn't even...

HIRSCH

Well, you have to be optimistic in life! (laughter) But I had written the London Matriculation and I thought that might be a substitute and it was a substitute in some sense.

BURKE

I'm sorry, you say you had written the London Matriculation? What does that mean?

HIRSCH

Well, I think it was the University of London or something that had already in that period a system of awarding a degree without being present in classes.

BURKE

Oh, OK. So you'd give some thought to going to London.

HIRSCH

No, no, no. This was just one of the few opportunities that existed in those days, without being in class; they had developed a very sophisticated and most likely financially rewarding system of having people get a degree by correspondence.

BURKE

Did you do that?

HIRSCH

yes, that's what I did. That's how I got a London certificate of some sort.

BURKE

And this would've been -- you mean a high school degree?

HIRSCH

Well, it was a high school degree, right. Namely -- more or less the equivalent of one. (inaudible) one of the few occasions or opportunities you had to do that. How else would I be able to finish high school or get at least recognition of having finished high school?

BURKE

Right, so that was something that you did via correspondence?

HIRSCH

yes.

BURKE

And so you did that when you were still in Jerusalem.

HIRSCH

I did that -- no, I think I did that when I was still in Mikveh Israel. I was still in agriculture, yes.

BURKE

OK. But nevertheless, Hebrew University still wouldn't admit you.

HIRSCH

No, they were really real bureaucrats, almost as much as our medical establishment is here.

BURKE

That's saying a lot. (laughter) So you and your -- you and your wife set out for the United States for the University of California at Berkeley. You took a train to Haifa, and then you took --

HIRSCH

No, we started from Haifa. We made a mistake in that process. We had been accepted at the University of California and assumed that this was in Los Angeles because there was a town that was large, we knew the name of. So we showed up at Los Angeles, not at Berkeley, and we're told, no, you really ought to go to Berkeley. (laughter) Any how, so we went there.

BURKE

Now, how did you get from Israel, or -- you left in -- what year was it that you left?

HIRSCH

We left in 1946. We got married in '45.

BURKE

(inaudible) statehood, is that right?

HIRSCH

That was before.

BURKE

You got married in '45 and you left in...

HIRSCH

'46.

BURKE

'46, and how did you get from Palestine to Los Angeles?

HIRSCH

It was quite difficult because there were not many slots for people to get on ships -- it was the end of WWII. So we were able to get into an arrangement on a former troop carrier.

BURKE

Oh, is that right?

HIRSCH

yes, that's how we got into Haifa, and...

BURKE

A U.S. troop carrier?

HIRSCH

yes.

BURKE

Do you remember the name of the ship?

HIRSCH

I think it was something life Marine Karpf.

BURKE

So it had been decommissioned, and it was being used to take...

HIRSCH

Mainly refugees from various countries, and you didn't get a cabin there. (inaudible) et cetera, et cetera.

BURKE

Do you remember how many days the sailing was?

HIRSCH

No, I really don't.

BURKE

But you slept on the deck?

HIRSCH

I don't remember, but I was down in the lower part or the higher part of the ship. We were very interested in getting out because it was so short after the end of the war that there was such great demand for transportation and so forth. And we were young. We didn't mind that. That's why I say it's nothing like starting way down and it's easy to take a lot of difficulties.

BURKE

Right. So it was an adventure, partly.

HIRSCH

Well, no. It was something that had to be done. And, and, so --

BURKE

And so did the ship port in Los Angeles?

HIRSCH

No, it went into New York.

BURKE

New York.

HIRSCH

yes, we disembarked in New York, and we had some relatives in Virginia and from there I think we took a plane to Los Angeles to go to Berkeley. (laughter)

BURKE

Do you remember when you -- I imagine -- OK, you went to Los Angeles and did you go to the UCLA campus?

HIRSCH

We must have gone, we must have gone to the administration building, to be told that we were in the wrong place! (laughter)

BURKE

What did you and your wife say to each other?

HIRSCH

Well, we were rather unprepared for it. (laughter) Let's put it this way.

BURKE

So you took a -- you went up to Berkeley. Do you recall how you got up to Berkeley?

HIRSCH

Well, I think we took a bus or something like that. I do not remember exactly. And we were very fortunate. There was no housing at Berkeley. We would walk the streets trying to find a room.

BURKE

Really?

HIRSCH

And what we --

BURKE

Why was that?

HIRSCH

Well, this was in the fall of 1946. The GI's had come back. We looked for housing not only in Berkeley, we also walked the streets of Oakland and we came across a sign, a room for rent in a nice neighborhood and then the landlord was a black woman, very pleasant, very nice, and she very nicely explained she feared we really would not be comfortable in that part of town.

BURKE

What part of Oakland was it?

HIRSCH

I don't remember exactly.

BURKE

But it was a black neighborhood?

HIRSCH

We didn't realize that, but apparently it was. In the flats, not in the hills.

BURKE

Right, right.

HIRSCH

And what was fortunate is that we, again, Berkeley was just terrific and well-organized and the student center had arranged for trying to get lists of available rooms. And a professor of religion in the School of Religion in Berkeley, had a room on the second floor on La Loma Avenue, which was just adjacent to the campus.

BURKE

On what avenue?

HIRSCH

La Loma. La Loma.

BURKE

La Loma, OK.

HIRSCH

We had a lovely room overlooking the two bridges and all that, and there was a closet that we converted into quote-unquote a kitchen with a burner. And it was a great time.

BURKE

Did you speak English at that time?

HIRSCH

Very little. Really, very little, although I took classes while I was in the agricultural school. I would take a bike, drive at night into Tel Aviv and, and took classes. And then having been for a number of years in the police force, the British, I learned a little bit.

BURKE

Oh, right.

HIRSCH

And now that again takes an effort and it works out all right.

BURKE

So you found someplace to live, and it sounds like you were lucky to have done that.

HIRSCH

Oh, yes. Very nice people. His name was Williams, had two young children. He later left Berkeley and went to the School of Theology at Harvard. Very, very good man, very nice people, very friendly.

BURKE

And you've arrived on the Berkeley campus and tell me what happened when you tried to enroll?

HIRSCH

No problem. They had, I think I mentioned to you, on a field they had opened a huge tent, and faculty, even full professors would sit at a table, would ask you a few questions. And in my case, they were extremely generous, because what did they know about what I did at the Hebrew University? I mean, whatever I explained was not very helpful and there was not much to explain. The attitude was, this was the end of WWII, it's a new world. (inaudible).

BURKE

I mean, you had no documentation with you, is that right?

HIRSCH

Well, I might've had something, but I don't remember what it -- it surely was not what you usually have, you produce. But for example, high school diploma or something, I didn't have that. And my wife again was hard for her to show what is the equivalent of having a Master's degree in a young country and a young university compared to the public university? So her professor she met there, said "you're in, and why don't you take my class, and if you make it, we'll move you."

BURKE

Now, this was your wife's experience.

HIRSCH

yes, my experience was that after I got in, I got a remission of tuition in the first quarter already.

BURKE

How did you manage to do that?

HIRSCH

Well, you just ask for it. This is what creates loyalty to a place.

BURKE

Right, right. Now, you felt that you were -- well, you're very appreciative for what that professor did for you.

HIRSCH

Yes, but I don't think it was just -- I think it was the general environment. Berkeley was obviously a lot smaller than it is today, and it was recovering from a period where the conventional student body wasn't there, so I'm sure that under Robert Gorden Sproul there were some meetings and they decided (inaudible) this can be our attitude. I have no proof, but I assume because it was universal.

BURKE

Right, and the attitude that you're talking about is when in doubt...

HIRSCH

Be helpful. Not to be crossing all the T's and dotting all the I's.

BURKE

Right, which was very different from your experience at Hebrew University.

HIRSCH

Well, yes, and also medical establishment. I have tried to get an appointment today to try to sit down with them. Took me about 40 minutes to get to the first person.

BURKE

Oh, brother.

HIRSCH

And then when I finally said I want to talk to X, Y, and Z, she wasn't in.

BURKE

yes, yes, yes.

HIRSCH

Anyhow, that's the...

BURKE

Now, you mentioned that's a big tent, and this was the big admissions...

HIRSCH

Everybody who wanted to enroll and remember this was basically the first post-war class and here we were in, I guess September of '46. So not enough has been written about that experience and that commitment of an academic institution including its administrators.

BURKE

And the openness.

HIRSCH

yes.

BURKE

Now, did the -- I think you said it was a professor who interviewed you. Did he ask you what it was you wanted to do, what it was that you wanted to --

HIRSCH

Oh, yes. And I do not know who he was. I don't know his name. I can not thank him, because by that time we really had to process a lot of students. (inaudible)

BURKE

What did you tell him that you wanted to study?

HIRSCH

I wanted to get into agricultural economics.

BURKE

Oh, OK.

HIRSCH

It's the Giannini Foundation.

BURKE

OK. Now, a few minutes ago, you said that your wife was responsible for sort of turning you towards a future life.

HIRSCH

Well, that was a bit facetious. She played a big role, yes.

BURKE

In what way?

HIRSCH

Well, she was way ahead of me. I needed something to show her, I had to compete! (laughter) yes, no, that's...

BURKE

And so you both -- both of you enrolled at...

HIRSCH

Berkeley.

BURKE

At Berkeley. And what kind of experience was that?

HIRSCH

Well, again, we had -- after the housing problem was settled, was the question of how do you keep -- how do you finance your being there. And so I think she --

BURKE

But neither of you had much money.

HIRSCH

I had no money. She had a job at Heinz in Oakland and by bicycle she went down there. And I got a remission of tuition and then after one year got my bachelor's degree and then I got a research assistantship, and then I worked about 20 hours a week as a gardener. That's how we stayed financially alive.

BURKE

Now, you earned your bachelor's degree...

HIRSCH

In one year.

BURKE

Is that because you were able to use some of the courses you had taken at Hebrew University? How did you earn a bachelor's degree in one year?

HIRSCH

Well, I can not exactly explain what they decided that I had to do and why, but they indicated to me -- excuse me -- what kind of courses I should take and I took the 21 units. That adds up to, what, about 63 units.

BURKE

You mean for three quarters.

HIRSCH

Three quarters. I think we were on a quarter basis. I don't know if that was -- I think it was. But anyhow, I had no problem to graduate.

BURKE

You took 21 units and you also worked as a research assistant.

HIRSCH

No, that was when I became a graduate student. What I did is when I worked 21 -- when I was an undergraduate -- I cleaned floors and I did gardening and things like that.

BURKE

Just around, did you work...

HIRSCH

In the neighborhood. Well, it's actually -- Berkeley was good for that because in the hill area, there are well-to-do people and they hire.

BURKE

And your undergraduate degree was in agricultural economics?

HIRSCH

yes.

BURKE

And then what about your graduate studies?

HIRSCH

I got a Ph.D. in agricultural economics and again remission of tuition and became a research assistant.

BURKE

How long did it take you to get your Ph.D.?

HIRSCH

Two years.

BURKE

Now, that seems like an awfully short period of time to get a Ph.D.

HIRSCH

(laughter) I don't think so -- I had a student who when I arrived at UCLA was already seven years working on his dissertation. I helped him after two years get a degree. That's all over the map. But usually, I would assume four years on average, yes.

BURKE

Were you very disciplined? It sounds like you must have been disciplined and hardworking.

HIRSCH

Again, I had a purpose. I -- there was something to be done, and we had to fight for it.

BURKE

Was part of it proving to UC Berkeley that they'd done the right thing? Was part of that that you didn't want this institution... (inaudible)

HIRSCH

That was part of it, but also again remember we were very hungry! We -- once we were in the University and right before Ph.D. degree, we'd better do something to deserve a job thereafter. yes.

BURKE

What did you do your Ph.D. thesis in?

HIRSCH

Which was just the opposite what we have today. In that period, there was a great interest in what we called vertical integration. Today it's just the opposite. We're trying to contract out stuff. And it had to do with some theoretical and empirical analysis of vertical integration in agriculture.

BURKE

And you earned your Ph.D. in what year?

HIRSCH

In '49.

BURKE

And how about your wife?

HIRSCH

She beat me to it! (laughter) '48.

BURKE

Now, how'd you let her do that?

HIRSCH

She deserved it. But then we had a great occasion, and I do not remember whether it was my graduation or hers when we went to the commencement exercises in the football stadium and Robert Gordon Sproul was still president. The speaker was Harry Truman.

BURKE

Oh, is that right?

HIRSCH

And the person who introduced him was Earl Warren, and Earl Warren had to excuse himself. He was running for Vice President. He had to get back onto the campaign trail, he said. (laughter) Was a great occasion.

BURKE

OK, and so that -- you told me that year was 1948...

HIRSCH

I don't remember but it was either '98 when my wife got her Ph.D. -- I mean, '48, or '49 when I got it. I can look it up. I don't remember. But again...

BURKE

Harry Truman was no longer president then.

HIRSCH

Oh, yes, he was president.

BURKE

He was president then. OK.

HIRSCH

In fact, he was running for election.

BURKE

He was running for a second term?

HIRSCH

First term. He inherited the first term.

BURKE

Oh, I see, right, right. So he was running...

HIRSCH

First (inaudible) run, and Earl Warren was the vice presidential candidate under what's his name from New York who was the presidential candidate.

BURKE

Adlai Stevens?

HIRSCH

It was a lovely experience and I often have said to people, people who can do something, it's a grave mistake that you're making. We have now these little graduations of ethnic groups and disciplines. I think it's an enormous mistake, because an event like this you look back to the great experience and it made a community. We became part of a -- even those who didn't have the positive experience that I had, I think that they really would -- you can not substitute it by a football game. (laughter)

BURKE

Do you remember how you felt that day? You were finally earning a Ph.D. which was your dream. And you were -- the President of the United States was speaking at your graduation.

HIRSCH

And I had been offered a job in the Berkeley economics department.

BURKE

And you had been offered a new job? What was the new job?

HIRSCH

Oh, yes. I was an -- you see, in those days, you were hired as an instructor with a Ph.D., not as an assistant professor, so I was hired as an instructor and my salary I think was either $3,300 or $3,400 a year.

BURKE

Oh, is that right? Did it seem like a lot of money at the time?

HIRSCH

Sure, yes!

BURKE

How did you feel that day. Do you recall?

HIRSCH

Oh, great. Because I was so grateful and we were so happy and satisfied, both in terms of having accomplished something but also found a community that we felt we were a part of.

BURKE

And this community being the University of California?

HIRSCH

The university. yes.

BURKE

Well, I think we'll leave it on that note, and then next time...

HIRSCH

Now, I don't know whether the things that I told you are really of relevance to you, nor the right ones, and you can stop me any moment.

BURKE

OK, no, this is fine. This is all interesting. This is all interesting. And then next time we'll pick up with you beginning your professional life.

HIRSCH

OK, that's easier because I have -- then I have at least files that I can draw on easily.

BURKE

OK.

1.2. Session 2 ( November 20, 2006)

BURKE

Dr. Hirsch and I are in his home again for our second session, for the UCLA Oral History program. We ended last time with Dr. Hirsch earning his PhD from the University of California at Berkeley, and he was hired immediately as an instructor at Cal Berkeley. But I want to ask him to go back to something we talked about much earlier in the conversation, and talk a little bit more about a couple of things for me. And one of them has to do with a correspondence that he received, an email correspondence that he received just in the past couple of months, from a woman from his high school in Lentz-on-the-Rhine(?), Germany. And she told him that the school was celebrating its 300th anniversary, and she had located Dr. Hirsch on the internet, and she had a couple of requests for him; she wanted to publish an article of his, or an article that he had co-authored, in a book that the school was putting out. And she also wanted him to pass along some words to students of today. I think the idea of this letter was to sort of recognize Dr. Hirsch as one of the Jewish students at this school during the 1930s -- I think she said that he was the last surviving Jewish student, either from that period or ever. It wasn't really clear. But Dr. Hirsch had said that when he received this correspondence, he had some misgivings about participating in this anniversary commemoration. And so, Dr. Hirsch, I just wanted to ask you a little bit about your misgivings.

HIRSCH

Well, based on my experience, and that of many other cases, I think it would not be unusual to have a somewhat divided attitude towards Germany, as to whether there is a basic goodness among Germans, which only took a shortcut during a relatively short but very important period, the Hitler period, or whether that was deeply rooted in the history of Germany and did exist for many years before, it was all over the map. But what determines my attitude is that when it comes to young people, and having a chance to express some hopes, as well as point to some responsibilities that all of us have as citizens on this earth. I decided, yes, I would reply.

BURKE

Was -- now, you were kicked out of this school in 1935, I believe it was.

HIRSCH

It was in 1935 -- I don't know what the legal term is, but basically, I somehow was informed that I no longer could attend the high school.

BURKE

Did -- were you offered an apology, in this correspondence that you received?

HIRSCH

No.

BURKE

Did you feel you deserved one?

HIRSCH

No.

BURKE

Why not?

HIRSCH

I don't think any person was responsible. I don't know what this lady had done about all this; but obviously, she's not responsible for the development and coming to power of the Hitler regime. But clearly, her contacting me was an indication of good will.

BURKE

Did she acknowledge the circumstances of your leaving this school?

HIRSCH

No, she used a slightly different approach to it, in defining my relationship to the school, that my father came to -- what was the term she used? -- to have me discontinue -- I will have to go back to the term that she used -- but basically that my dad showed up there and terminated my being a student there. Turned things around.

BURKE

yes. That wasn't, in fact, what happened.

HIRSCH

Oh, no, no.

BURKE

I neglected to ask you last time about your relatives in the Holocaust. Did you lose many relatives in the Holocaust?

HIRSCH

No, fortunately, my father-in-law was a Zionist from way back, and was -- he was a physician, had served in World War II in the German army as an officer, and while he was not terribly keen on leaving Germany, because he had -- lived in Berlin and had a good practice -- he was able to visit frequently during the '30s, and was ready to get out on short-term notice. So both he and his wife and his two children left in due time. And from my father's side, his brother had already left for Palestine. So in that sense, we were not directly affected. But when it comes to the parents of some of my cousins, yes. Some of them did not survive the Hitler period.

BURKE

And of course, in retrospect, getting -- being forced to leave this school may have saved your life.

HIRSCH

Yes, but when I left, in particularly in that part of Germany that we lived, we could easily have the illusion that the Hitler regime really was not terribly important, because this was a community into which my parents and my grandparents really had integrated for many years. As I think I mentioned to you, I have information that goes back to 1840 that my great-grandfather lived in Linz, a long in and a small community. So yes, I might have felt that this was a secure place. But I cannot go back; it's too long ago. This is too long ago for me to remember.

BURKE

OK. Fair enough. Now, I want to fast-forward a little bit, and ask you to explain to us how you ended up in the field of urban economics. You talked earlier about a sort of back-to-the-land movement among Jews, and you became interested in that when you moved to Palestine. And this was all sort of new for you, because as you explained, you were sort of a city boy; you grew up right on the --

HIRSCH

Well, this was a village.

BURKE

A village, OK. But you didn't have a lot of experience with farmland and farming and that type of thing.

HIRSCH

I didn't know anything.

BURKE

OK. But you did become very interested in farming and agriculture --

HIRSCH

Well, again, the interest in agriculture must have been very prominent when the Hitler regime really asked Jews to reconsider what they were doing and where their hopes would lie. This whole movement of Zionism, of rebuilding Palestine, and -- you had physicians come and -- other physicians, lawyers -- and they tried to do some farming. And for young people like me, this was a logical step to take. Moreover, I could handle this, because I could go on a one-to-one basis; I didn't have to join a group in order to leave Germany. I applied to the agricultural school, by the name of Mikveh Israel, and I was admitted, and I came, I showed up, I got a number -- I was Number 41; I still have a sweater that has Number 41 on it.

BURKE

And that sweater was issued to you by whom?

HIRSCH

No, that -- my mother bought me that sweater before I left.

BURKE

Oh, OK. And the Number 41 -- what did that refer to?

HIRSCH

That was my number as a student in that school.

BURKE

The -- this is the agricultural school you talked earlier about. And then I think you said it was near Haifa.

HIRSCH

No, it was near Tel Aviv, on the way to Jerusalem.

BURKE

OK. And then you became interested in the field of agricultural economics.

HIRSCH

Well, both I and my wife were interested in getting -- completing our education, or in my case, getting an education. And therefore, we thought the place to get an education was the United States, and particularly California. My interests was to see that I could become a farmer and work in agriculture; it was very logical. And that's why we came. Now, we came over to get a degree, and we -- as we finished our work for the degree. In 1948, my wife got her PhD and in 1949 I got it. We were hired actually by the Hebrew University, we were given positions there, teaching positions. And there was one particular concern -- in Palestine, there was no housing available. And in order to get a domicile -- by that time we had two little children -- we had to not only get a position, but also a commitment from the University that they would assist us financially in other ways in getting housing. Because there was an enormously large amount of money to be paid, using the term of "key money," that you had to pay in order to have access, a little bit under the table, we had in Santa Monica. And we left Berkeley for Jerusalem; all of belongings, including the car and two children. Halfway towards the East Coast, we were informed by my father-in-law that the Hebrew University did not see how they really could meet their obligations to subsidize our housing. So we decided we would be staying in the United States, if permitted. And that's why I had this rather complicated one year at the UN, and another year the Brookings Institution, before I really was able to establish a relationship with a university -- in this case, Washington University,

BURKE

Oh, I see. So you taught at Cal Berkeley as an instructor for a period of time.

HIRSCH

In those days, you were hired with a PhD as an instructor, not as an assistant professor.

BURKE

Right. And then you got this offer, what you thought was a good offer, from Hebrew University? But --

HIRSCH

We were offered a position.

BURKE

But there was a problem with the housing.

HIRSCH

Not at that time. They were very late in coming back and not fulfilling their obligation.

BURKE

In what way was it not fulfilled?

HIRSCH

Well, through friends, my father-in-law learned that they would not be able to provide us with housing.

BURKE

I see. Now when were your children born?

HIRSCH

Beg your pardon?

BURKE

When were your children born?

HIRSCH

Well, the oldest was born in 1950.

BURKE

And that was which one?

HIRSCH

That was Dan, the son. And I think -- yes, in February of '50. And in August of '51, the second boy was born. So we had two children, and then on the way to Palestine, got the information as we were visiting relatives on the East Coast, and then suddenly, I started to look for a job on the East Coast.

BURKE

I see. And you found a job at the United Nations. And what did you do there?

HIRSCH

I was employed in the secretariat in the fiscal division.

BURKE

And what kind of experience did you have at the United Nations, which was only --

HIRSCH

Very disorganized organization.

BURKE

Is that right?

HIRSCH

Well, by the very nature -- this is not a comment that was designed to be negative -- but an organization that is by force hiring staff to represent each and every country, regardless of whether that country can provide people who are adequate to the task. And the director-general at that time had the reputation of being, as I was told, in the hip pocket of the US State Department. And most of the people who -- no, quite a few of the staff really had nothing to do. And in order to be able to do something, they would buttonhole members of the delegation of their country, and tell them, "Hey, let's do this kind of study," try to get it funded, (inaudible) opportunity. This was not a place that -- I mean, the United Nations -- and I'm a strong supporter of the idea -- but it's a very difficult thing to pull off.

BURKE

Right, right. You didn't stay there too long, I don't think.

HIRSCH

Just a year.

BURKE

Just a year. And then --

HIRSCH

They offered us housing, and gave us housing through the UN, outside Manhattan, on the -- I forgot what the -- maybe Kew Gardens or something --

BURKE

But you still weren't happy there, and you looked elsewhere.

HIRSCH

Well, we were happy, but that was not what I wanted to do in the future. I was not born to be a hired hand.

BURKE

I see. Now, I'd like you to explain how your transition from a specialist in agricultural economics to urban economics.

HIRSCH

That's a good question, but it's easy to answer. St. Louis -- Washington University, obviously in St. Louis, which is an urban community, has had, and now even more so, a significant percentage of its population being minorities. And somehow, I became, among other things, interested in problems of the Negro community, and I was looked upon really as an honorary member of one of their major organizations, and did some studies. And at the same time --

BURKE

Are you referring to the NAACP?

HIRSCH

No, the other one. The Urban League.

BURKE

Oh, OK.

HIRSCH

And the other one was that there was a political move to have the population vote on a merger, a consolidation, of the City of St. Louis and the County. They are two distinct areas, in a certain sense. The city is in the middle, and surrounded by a ring of the county. And I was approached, and agreed, to join an effort called the Metropolitan St. Louis Survey, funded by the Ford Foundation, and the aircraft company McDonald in St. Louis. In this capacity, I was asking myself, how do you provide politicians and the electorate with information that could be useful for them to decide whether they should vote for or against (as an economist). So I joined as Assistant Research Director and Chief Economist.

BURKE

And where were you when you were asked to contribute to this?

HIRSCH

I was at Washington University.

BURKE

You were teaching at Washington University. And this was after you had spent a period of time at the Brookings Institution in Washington, DC.

HIRSCH

Well, we came from Washington, from the Brookings Institution; we moved to St. Louis. And my wife joined the Department of Psychiatry, and I, Economics. Working on these questions, looking at particularly two methodologies -- One, to try to develop what became known as a regional input-output analysis, which could show, in a sense, consolidation's effect on employment and income on parts of the economy of the area. The second one was, what were the chances that the expenditures of providing services would be lower, once it would be consolidated. And these were relatively new economic efforts. The first had been developed 10-15 years earlier on a national basis -- the national input-output -- analysis by Wassily Leontief of Harvard, who got for that work the Nobel Prize in Economics. We were friends. And so I guess I became known to the Ford Foundation, and joined as a member a committee that they established. I think they gave us $1 million -- to study whether there should be and could be a sub-field of Economics named Urban Economics. And if so, what would it take, intellectually, to initiate that field? And that's how I got into Urban Economics. In Regional Economics -- the emphasis was on regional accounts, which again, we have national accounts -- we talk about, what is the change in the national income, GDP and so on, and do that on a regional basis. And that's how I got into Urban and Regional Economics.

BURKE

Then -- the field of Urban Economics didn't really exist?

HIRSCH

No. I was one of the founders.

BURKE

And so this was while you were on the faculty at Washington University --

HIRSCH

Yes,, that happened after. I was on the faculty, I got interested and involved as an area of specialization, and then the University created an institute, and I became the founding director of the institute in that area.

BURKE

So where were you --

HIRSCH

In St. Louis.

BURKE

Oh, but you were not yet on the faculty at --

HIRSCH

Oh, yes. I came in 1953, was hired as an associate professor of economics and shortly there after promoted to full professor.. And in this capacity I taught and did research -- for example, I wrote a textbook on modern statistics in the first year or two that I was there. But then these opportunities appeared that interested me, having sort of miscalculated what the world would look like after World War II, in terms of food and fiber demand. The action really was in the urban area. As a matter of fact, it was in that period, early in the middle 1960s, that the federal government created the Department of Housing and Urban Development. I became a consultant to the first secretary and so on. These things -- once you get in there, you're getting known and you do become visible, and you meet new people and, perhaps not even deservingly, you become involved. I hope I was deserving.

BURKE

Early in your career, you work in the area of agricultural economics. And as you mentioned briefly --

HIRSCH

I didn't anticipate that family farming in the post-war period would decline and be taken over by industrial farming. It was a totally different kind of -- you look in California, one of the great contributions made here in California was the Agricultural Extension Service, which played an enormous role by working almost on a one-to-one basis. We had at Berkeley, in the building where I worked, the Extension Service that went to various communities of farmers and helped them to fertilize, irrigate, fight diseases, and so on. That was the agriculture that I had in mind, and I knew. And yet today, family farms don't exist to any large extent. Farming has become an industry, taken over by large corporations.

BURKE

How is that relevant to the fact that you left that field of agricultural economics?

HIRSCH

Well, it's really not the research that one could do that would be different, in relation to farming and in relation, let's say, to the building of cars. Because these were all industrial organizations now, whether for growing apples, chickens -- you go outside San Francisco, you have tens of thousands of chickens in little cages. This is not agriculture; this is industry. Anyhow, so it was by this coincidence, and it was very helpful, because my last recent 15, 30 years of taking an interest in governance of universities was stimulated by Washington University. We had a -- I don't know how I got into that, but I think the Sunday Morning Crapshooting, I think it was, every second or third Monday morning, we would meet with the Chancellor --

BURKE

You're talking about the University of California here.

HIRSCH

No, I'm talking about Washington University.

BURKE

OK.

HIRSCH

That's how I got interested in governance as the whole -- it's the whole issue of how universities retain their excellence or become excellent.

BURKE

I want to go back to something you mentioned just a little while ago. One of the reasons that you were asked to contribute to this question of, should the St. Louis city and county merge, was because you had taken an interest in Negroes. Was --

HIRSCH

Well, that was only one --

BURKE

Well, that was just one area. And so -- was this -- were you interested in African-Americans in a rural setting or in an urban setting?

HIRSCH

This was a significant, researchable question. And the same holds later on when I came out here and was the founding director of the research institute at UCLA. You had the riots, and this was an issue -- we haven't unfortunately resolved that completely, in terms of urban communities.

BURKE

But how did you -- I'm wondering if you could explain a little bit more about how your interest in economics started centering on the urban setting?

HIRSCH

Well, I think in many respects, it might have been a coincidence, maybe, that -- there were elements in the community; the Chancellor of Washington University, the President of St. Louis University became very active, to try to help answer the question for politicians and so on -- is there a positive case that can be made in favor of metropolitan consolidation? And they went all out to get funds and establish the Metropolitan St. Louis Survey. There was a group of leading citizens not known by name necessarily in the community who were moving the community. And I had to make presentations to them.

BURKE

At this point, your academic focus was on what?

HIRSCH

On urban economics, but not solely. As I just mentioned also I wrote a textbook on modern statistics, and taught modern statistics. And -- as a matter of fact, if you look at some of the publications that came out by students and faculty -- we addressed a very large plethora of urban questions; that really helped to find a much easier solution. And books in 1953, the first few. The first was the St. Louis economies, an analysis of hospital costs and hospital charges in Greater St. Louis. Path of Progress of Metropolitan St. Louis -- that was sort of a volume on this effort to create a metropolitan government. An analysis of the rising cost of public education -- (inaudible) -- because I also was a consultant to the Joint Economic Committee of Congress.

BURKE

Now the Joint Economic Committee was --

HIRSCH

Federal.

BURKE

Oh, OK.

HIRSCH

yes, which is both Senate and House, and there's an annual change of which Senator or Congressman is heading up that Joint Economic Committee. Anyhow, these are all issues the urban community encountered, and we got well-endowed, and able to work in these areas, faculty and so on. It was one of the early things that we talked so much about now, perhaps too much, namely moving from single disciplines, and having students and faculty becoming deeply involved and knowledgeable in one particular problem area with the help of different disciplines. This was an early movement of having more than one, two, or three disciplines meet. This produces a better result, in terms of teaching and research.

BURKE

What we know today as multidisciplinary research.

HIRSCH

Today we might have too much, possibly.

BURKE

Is that right? (laughter) What appealed to you about the field of urban economics? What appealed to you personally, as a researcher, as a scientist?

HIRSCH

It was new. That is exciting. But the other is that there are -- and it's really when the country realized that, and established the Department of HUD, a realization that we had serious urban problems. And it coincided with decline, for politicians; perhaps, less for scholars' interest and community interest in the problem of farming.

BURKE

And by the problem of farming, you're referring to --

HIRSCH

What agricultural economists do; they deal with a whole plethora of what the rural community, the farming community, faces.

BURKE

And was a city like St. Louis a good place to study what was going on in urban America at that time?

HIRSCH

Oh, yes. It's in the heart of the United States, and for the longest time, I didn't know whether it was part of the South or not. And that meant that it was rural. Yet Missouri has two very large metropolitan areas -- Kansas City and St. Louis. So it was a natural one.

BURKE

So tell us what happened with the merger question.

HIRSCH

I think -- I don't remember, but I do believe it was defeated.

BURKE

Is that right? Do you remember your conclusion?

HIRSCH

We really -- there's a book that we published that -- I think that the merits and the area in which I've worked, of consolidation, were questionable. And as long as, for example, the costs of producing services were not declining as the community increased, that was not a strong support for consolidation. And I don't remember all of the political issues. I had two jobs; I was at the university, and I was at this institution the Metropolitan St. Louis Survey.

BURKE

Do you enjoy -- do you personally enjoy examining these questions? It seems like that politicians will talk a lot about what's good for us and what's bad for us, but as an economist, you were trying to sift through this constant rhetoric and talk, and come to an unbiased conclusion about whether certain public things are good or bad for the citizenry. Do you enjoy that?

HIRSCH

My whole philosophy is somewhat different than you describe it. I look upon myself as a technocrat who has no party affiliation. And as I think I mentioned to you, my students never knew -- at the end of the quarter or semester -- was a liberal or a conservative. So this was my position in relation to decision-makers. And I worked all the way in the Executive Office of the President of the United States at the federal level; I was a consultant to a number of departments in the federal government; I've worked very closely with Governor Pat Brown on the state level and served on a number of committees and commissions. I served as the President of the Committee for the City in the election of Tom Bradley. So I saw my responsibility to provide information, input. To define the problem in an orderly way, do research that would shed light, and say, here is the result of my research. You use that information, where you see it as a politicians.

BURKE

Right. That executive-level appointment that you mentioned -- what was that? We'll probably -- we'll get to that later, but --

HIRSCH

You know in the District of Columbia, the old State Department building --

BURKE

Yes, I do. The old State Department building? I know the current one; I don't know if I know the old one.

HIRSCH

The old one is just very near -- adjacent almost -- to the White House. Anyhow, the executive offices of the President -- various kinds of the activities supported the White House, the President. My support was in relation to what we call Program Budgeting System.

BURKE

Right, OK. That's probably something we're going to get to a little bit later. Now I believe it was in St. Louis that you came to know a man named James Webb --

HIRSCH

yes. Again, that was really unexpected. He served as a board member of McDonald Aircraft, had a very broad interest, and was appointed in first few days of the Kennedy Administration to be the head of NASA. His role was not only of getting to the moon, but also of justifying spending on getting a man to the moon, and what kind of activities that this money was generally increasing and with it , will increase income and growth in society. Take an example of -- the various types of things that we sent into space, had something that shortly became useful -- Teflon. So these kind of things were of concern to him. Economic impact -- so that's why I worked with him.

BURKE

And how did he -- how did you meet, or how was he familiar with your work?

BURKE

How did I meet him first?

BURKE

yes.

HIRSCH

The heads of the two universities who were really deeply committed to exploring Metropolitan Consolidation --

BURKE

The two universities would have been Washington University and --

HIRSCH

-- St. Louis University.

BURKE

-- and St. Louis University.

HIRSCH

They had off and on meetings. St. Louis had a group of 30 or so citizens who were really leaders. And unlike other communities, they are unknown to the rest of the community. So they would bring them together. And I made presentations to that group from time to time. And one of the people was Jim Webb, and he came to talk to me. And that's how it all began.

BURKE

And he asked you to help out --

HIRSCH

Once he was appointed to be head of NASA. And he had experience in government -- I believe under Truman he was the Undersecretary of the State. And he hailed from Oklahoma, was very close to a key Senator, Kerr, from Oklahoma. And so he got the job, and he was just a fascinating leader -- the best manager I've ever met.

BURKE

Why do you say that?

HIRSCH

Because he could excite people. He could define what it was that had to be done, and he could attract people to come and work with him on them. And he was able to excite legislators. His method was to invite the delegation of a state for a whole day, and wear them out and he got their interest and commitment.

BURKE

Right. Did you make a contribution to that effort?

HIRSCH

To get to the moon? I don't think that this was much of the area where I was expected to make a contribution, other than being a person that he could tryout-- he could throw something at and get an objective view of things.

BURKE

What kind of work did you do with NASA?

HIRSCH

Well, first of all, I would sit in on many of the meetings. The research that was most important, as he saw and I saw it was assuring that the money that went into NASA would make a contribution to income and growth of the economy.

BURKE

Right.

HIRSCH

Regional and national.

BURKE

Now -- and at the time that you were doing this consulting work with NASA, you were still on the faculty at Washington University.

HIRSCH

Oh, yes. I would go for two or three days every month to work with NASA.

BURKE

You'd go to Washington, DC every two or three months.

HIRSCH

Every month.

BURKE

Oh, for two or three days --

HIRSCH

-- a month.

BURKE

-- every month. Now, Dr. Hirsch, during this period in St. Louis, you did some work with the federal government. You were involved with a Congressional committee that was looking at K-12 education. Tell me a little bit about that.

HIRSCH

No, it was the -- Joint Economic Committee of Congress -- which initiated an effort to get somebody to write the monograph on important issues facing the nation.

BURKE

And this was a Joint Economic Committee established by whom?

HIRSCH

That's part -- it was in existence.

BURKE

Oh, OK.

HIRSCH

It's a committee that -- first it looks at the budget problems of the federal government. And as an example, a friend of mine looked at the steel industry, and I was asked to look at K-12 and I think that was a major effort.

BURKE

Sounds like it.

HIRSCH

yes.

BURKE

What was -- could you be a little bit more specific about what they were asking you to look at?

HIRSCH

BURKE

(laughter) OK. Now, you also did some work with the National Science Foundation.

HIRSCH

Well, the National Science Foundation has committees that review grant requests. And I was on the committee that reviewed applications of economists.

BURKE

OK. Now, I remember during our first session, you told me a pretty funny story about you and your wife coming to the United States for the first time, and you both wanted to study at UC Berkeley, and you were a little confused about California geography, I think, and you ended up mistakingly at UCLA. Now -- and maybe that wasn't such a bad thing, because you found out where UCLA, because you would end up at UCLA a number of years later. Tell me how that happened.

HIRSCH

I think we were really corresponding with the University of California, not with the campus. And in those days, I became -- the University was really run by one man. I think we talked about that -- Robert Gordon Sproul. So it was a natural one, to ask yourself the question -- where do you expect the head for this would be? And who knew of Berkeley? I didn't know Berkeley; I knew Los Angeles.

BURKE

yes, no, I didn't mean to -- I was teasing you about that. No, but tell me how you -- after you left St. Louis, you got a faculty position at UCLA. Tell me how that happened.

HIRSCH

Well, I had retained relationships with the people at UCLA, because of my spending summers at RAND.

BURKE

Which you were doing --

HIRSCH

In 1958, I started to be a consultant at RAND, in Santa Monica.

BURKE

And so you would come to Southern California during the summer.

HIRSCH

yes. Well, during summer, then I would come by -- I spent time consulting the Governor of Hawaii, and I would stop over here for a few days. And it was quite interesting, going back to California.

BURKE

And did you have it in mind all along, to get a faculty position at the UC?

HIRSCH

Oh, yes. Yes.

BURKE

And so you liked Southern California, and so --

HIRSCH

Well, it was a question -- where to be -- Berkeley or Los Angeles, for somebody in my position? And considering, founding an institute on urban government and public affairs was a challenge.

BURKE

And so did they recruit you for this new institute? OK.

HIRSCH

It was a dual position; I got to be a member of the economics department, and at the same time part-time, a third of the time or so, to direct that institute.

BURKE

OK. And the institute was called -- I'm looking for it -- the Institute of Government and Public Affairs?

HIRSCH

-- and Public Affairs, right.

BURKE

OK.

HIRSCH

It's the forerunner of the School -- they changed its name here again; it's now called the School of Public Affairs, I believe.

BURKE

Right, right. OK. And so you moved with your family to Los Angeles. And did you move into this house where we are now?

HIRSCH

Oh, yes. Yes. Again, my wife came first, and she looked at the openings of houses, and she was close to buying when she asked me to come.

BURKE

Wow. Well, it's a beautiful part of Los Angeles; she did well. OK, well, I think we're going to leave it off here, and then pick up next time with your career at UCLA. OK.

HIRSCH

Very good.[END OF AUDIO FILE]

1.3. Session 3 ( December 4, 2006)

BURKE

This is Anne Burke, and Professor Werner Hirsch and I are here for our third session for the UCLA Oral History Program. And we wanted to pick up where we left off, which was when Professor Hirsch came to UCLA to teach, and I think that was in 1963. And he got -- founded, actually, an Institute. And so I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit about the Institute that you founded.

HIRSCH

Well, the Regents of the University of California, in 1963, voted to establish an Institute at UCLA, and I was asked to come join the Economics Department, and be the founding director.

BURKE

Now why do you think the Regents asked you in particular?

HIRSCH

No, they didn't ask me; that wasn't the role of the Regents. It was the Department and Chancellor, through the Senate and so on, I was selected or approached to come and be the director.

BURKE

Why did they approach you?

HIRSCH

Well, I had established some reputation, having already established one Institute at Washington University in the middle of the 1950s, quite successfully.

BURKE

And so they were familiar with your work in urban economics?

HIRSCH

Yes. If they were not before, they tried to become knowledgeable, because they had an opening. There was an Institute established by the Regent; therefore, they'll need a director.

BURKE

OK. And so you founded this Institute, called the Institute of Government and Public Affairs. And what type of research did this Institute do?

HIRSCH

Well, if you give me a minute, I will show you the report. Most likely in the neighborhood of 100 to 150 research articles and books, including one that you mentioned. For example, I got a group together who went into Watts at the end of the riots, and they ended up with a book that Praeger published on the riots in Los Angeles, as an example.

BURKE

So the Watts riots occurred a couple years after -- not too long after you came --

HIRSCH

Please, no connection. (laughter)

BURKE

(laughter) OK, no connections. Now, why did that subject appeal to you as a research topic?

BURKE

Well, you have to understand what an Institute is. We had a board; we had a group of faculty. And one of the functions of a research institute is and was, particularly then, is to help departments attract new faculty, partly because of the excitement of the research, but in part also to help the department find the money to be attractive. So we had about, during the whole period, perhaps as many as 60 or 70 faculty members who were part-time, mainly. Some of them were very distinguished, and I can give you the list. I pulled out the record, and -- name of the members of the Institute. And some of them had that interest. As a matter of fact, the Watts project was led by the then Dean of the School of Public -- of Social Work, Nathan Cohen.

BURKE

Now there's also some continuity between your -- this research into the Watts riots and your work in St. Louis, that you had been interested in the situation of urban Negroes, as they were called at the time. And here you have a similar situation. Was that just coincidence, or was that --

HIRSCH

Well, no. When you have an event like this -- namely, if you have these riots -- I got together the senior people in the Institute, and we decided that this was area that deserved to be studied. We put in perhaps as many as ten faculty members, part-time, into Watts, to do the research -- this was not paper research; this was interviewing people, understanding what led to the event, social, psychological issues, and so on and so forth.

BURKE

And I believe this work came up with some remedial initiatives. Do you know if any of them -- if anything came of any of those proposed remedies?

HIRSCH

Well, I personally worked very closely with Tom Bradley, the Mayor. And therefore we had occasions to discuss some of the findings and some of the problems of Los Angeles.

BURKE

And were -- did he put any of them into place?

HIRSCH

Well, he created the environment in which people got together as a community, and so on and so forth, and -- as a matter of fact, the federal government established a commission that one of our members, Victor Palmieri, headed up. I served as a consultant to the national commission.

BURKE

Sometimes somebody might think of it as a --

HIRSCH

Palmieri was his name.

BURKE

Palmieri? And -- I'm sorry, he was the one -- who was he?

HIRSCH

He became the head of the federal effort -- the National Commission on Civil Disorders.

BURKE

And were you one of those professors who were working in Watts?

HIRSCH

No. No, I was teaching and directing an Institute, so -- I mean, this was almost a full-time job for people.

BURKE

Right. Did you enjoy being involved in very topical, current issues?

HIRSCH

Yes. Because I really felt, and feel to this day, that academics have a role to play.

BURKE

And what is that?

HIRSCH

To create knowledge, and to be available for advice.

BURKE

And for example, that's what you did --

HIRSCH

yes, I was a facilitator. Got the money, et cetera et cetera. But I did not go to Watts, no.

BURKE

In other words, an academic's job is not to sit in an ivory tower.

HIRSCH

Well, that depends. When you are a mathematician, if you are a statistician, or if you are a philosopher, you might be close to what we did 200 years ago; you were cloistered. To this very day, great minds want to be left alone. I had been one of those who really feel very strongly academics and academia can make a contribution to facilitate and improve public policy making. And I told you last time what my philosophy was, not to tell them what to do, but work in three stages. You remember that?

BURKE

Yes, but let's -- go ahead and mention that again.

HIRSCH

yes, well, if there was -- we identified a problem, or a legislator, or even a commission came and said, "This is a problem that I see. What are we going to do?" I took the position, yes, you help me define your problem, it's ingredients. And then I will try to identify potential initiatives, and try to provide some benefit/cost analysis for each of these major initiatives. And this material I'm handing to you as a policy-maker.

BURKE

But you do not feel that your role is to propose policy. You feel your role is to --

HIRSCH

Well, as an academic, no. But I mean, when it came to, let's say, the relation between Pat Brown and me, or Jim Webb and me, yes. Over dinner, we might talk about -- and I let my own view come out.

BURKE

Right. What about in the classroom?

HIRSCH

Oh, no.

BURKE

Why not?

HIRSCH

Because the importance of educating youngsters is to give them the ability to be discerning and identifying means that can lead to an understanding of solutions to the problems. And these are affected by values of the person. I mean, that's why we have Democrats and Republicans. But to come out -- or in the case of the court, when the court ruled on an issue that I was interested in, they called on me, the law firm usually, to discuss that in class would be totally improper. I would present the two sides, and let students then put their own values in if they wanted to.

BURKE

I imagine that many of your students would be curious about your personal opinion on a matter of law or economics?

HIRSCH

Well, they might be curious about the alternative way -- let me say, there's a court case the US Supreme Court decided in a very controversial area, let's say in relation to property rights. And while I personally felt this was a decision that is unfortunate, I would not tell them that. I would say, "Here, this is what these judges took into consideration; here's the other side." I can give you an example about the court cases that -- firms -- sorry -- let's say, what Microsoft faced. And I had a group present the case for Microsoft, and a group to present the case for the government. And that was it; they didn't want to have an answer. At the end, I asked a show of hands as to how the class comes out. They were very consistent.

BURKE

What did they decide?

HIRSCH

They came out for Microsoft.

BURKE

Oh, is that right? Interesting. Now --

HIRSCH

Over a number of years. I did that four or five years, and each time -- yes.

BURKE

Now, I believe that happened a little later on in your career, when you started teaching law. And we're going to get to that later. But what you've said about your role as an academic is very interesting. You told me once off-tape that you were very proud of something. What was --

HIRSCH

Well, I was very proud that students, at the end of the quarter, hadn't the faintest idea of whether I was a Conservative or a Liberal.

BURKE

Right. Do you want to tell us now which one you are?

HIRSCH

Well, on a general basis, I could perhaps. But I have not consistently taken a position that would be conservative, or a position that would be liberal. For example, much of the work on the takings clause again, that is law, not economics -- I come out on the conservative side. On the other hand, when it comes to issues of race and justice the liberal side.

BURKE

OK. We'll talk about the -- maybe we can -- well, that has some relevance to some of your professional friendships, among politicians. I'm talking about Pat Brown and Margaret Thatcher. But before we talk about them, I wanted to see if you could tell us about your work at the RAND Corporation, where I believe you were --

HIRSCH

Consultant.

BURKE

-- working on a part-time basis?

HIRSCH

No, a consultant.

BURKE

You were a consultant.

HIRSCH

It meant that before, when I was at Washington University, I was hired as a consultant. And I would spend summers there, in addition to off and on for a few days. And I think what got us together was the work on the learning function.

BURKE

Explain to me a little bit about that.

HIRSCH

The learning or progress function, because clearly RAND in those days, was virtually exclusively financed by the Air Force, not the Defense Department. And one of their interests -- and correct me -- was, for example, the manufacturing of aircraft, and their cost. As a matter of fact, I've always been associated with the department, then called cost-analysis. So the objective was to see, if you have assembly lines or partial assembly lines, for example, I told you, turret lathe manufacturing.

BURKE

I'm sorry, what?

HIRSCH

Turret lathe. There was an interest in the decision, how long to keep a particular airplane in use? Although you can see that there are great improvements that could be made, compared to the cost, the savings, to stay with the previous model. That was a great issue in those days. And that's how we got together. And then later on --

BURKE

That's how you and RAND got together?

HIRSCH

Beg pardon? Oh, RAND> yes.

BURKE

That is how you and RAND got together. Tell me a little bit about the development of what was then a new system of output-oriented planning and budgeting. Can you describe very briefly --

HIRSCH

Well, the name is really PBS -- Program Budgeting System. And as I spent more time at RAND in that period, the chair of the Department of Cost Analysis, David Novick, who was the chief editor of this volume that I showed you -- he got interested in getting together a group of people who would try to think through how we could get a more powerful technique for budgeting and planning.

BURKE

Powerful in terms of --

HIRSCH

Cost-effectiveness. That's what President Lyndon Johnson said. He compared it to the means we need in order to go to the moon.

BURKE

And we -- by "we," you mean --

HIRSCH

Well, there was a group of people -- one from Harvard, one from Columbia, I think a couple from UCLA -- who, together worked on this problem, mainly in terms of the overall theory, but each of them was assigned, or agreed, to work on the application of the method, to a part of government activity. For example, I was interested in education and in environment.

BURKE

And so this -- I believe you called it Program Budgeting System.

HIRSCH

Program Budgeting System, which applies Program Budgeting.

BURKE

Program Budgeting.

HIRSCH

yes. PBS. Program Budgeting seeks to improve the decision-making process of government. Toward this end it first structures the problem and then collects and analyses relevant outputs -- major objectives of government processes -- and -- inputs -- government activities produced by manpower, material and real estate. This is done in a way that intelligent comparisons among alternatives can be made in an uncertain world.

BURKE

When you boil it down, it will be a more cost-effective way for government to budget its money.

HIRSCH

Right.

BURKE

And you developed this.

HIRSCH

The group.

BURKE

The group developed it.

HIRSCH

yes. And you know, ultimately, after -- it was in force for quite awhile in the federal government, and some state governments; it ran into difficulties, and in part disappeared from the scene. And if you ask me why, I will even tell you why.

BURKE

Why is that, Professor Hirsch?

HIRSCH

The bureaucracy.

BURKE

Is that right?

HIRSCH

The bureaucracy was fearful that it could be judged.

BURKE

How do you mean?

HIRSCH

Well, here. If you have an output and an input, you can show whether indeed in this department its management is up to snuff. So they developed a powerful opposition, arguing any number of reasons they had. But I think that was the main reason why it became less important and less powerful.

BURKE

The bureaucrats were threatened by it, essentially.

HIRSCH

yes. That's an opinion, that's an opinion.

BURKE

OK. OK. And how do you feel about the fact that it slowly disappeared?

HIRSCH

I don't know that it disappeared, because I don't think that new methodologies and new approaches easily disappear. You build on them; it's like all knowledge. I don't think that you can readily trace any one new contribution to knowledge and say it appeared suddenly. Knowledge is being built on previous experience and so on. But to the extent the methodology is not as broadly used as the President in his statement had envisioned, it was a declining slope, over the years.

BURKE

OK. Now, I understand that you have a philosophy of the role of government, that you are able to state very succinctly -- I'm wondering if you could state what that basic philosophy is, and then tell us how PBS fits into that philosophy.

HIRSCH

Well, the overall philosophy -- and that's really on a macro basis -- my philosophy is in part that there's room for a government to create an environment in which the private sector and the family and so on can thrive; which means -- this is different from -- let's say Communism, that tells people what to do. We create the environment. And sometimes we fail For example, I think at this moment, the United States is trying to create an environment in which Iraq will become a democracy. And we thought, or the leadership of the United States thought, that if we get elections, we're going to make progress towards democracy. Now, you look at four or five of the countries that we are concerned about -- Iraq, Iran, Palestine -- let's see, there is two more that is -- anyhow, yes, they had elections, and they elected people that are so unfriendly to democracy, you can cry. So that's the difference, I mean -- that's the difficulty. You try to help them have an environment -- the same in this country. All this does not exclude some government intervention. That's my philosophy.

BURKE

Your philosophy seems to be -- the conservative line of thought in economic matters.

HIRSCH

Well, that depends on where you draw the line. I mean, if you draw the line, and say, on the one hand, you have a planned economy, where government is responsible for everything, then, indeed, I'm very far removed from that philosophy. I mean, greatness and new knowledge and a better world and life comes about because people are educated to benefit from an environment that helps them make socially desirable, and yet also valuable for themselves, decisions.

BURKE

And tell us briefly how Program Budgeting fits into your philosophy of the role of government.

HIRSCH

It is a tool to improve the planning-programming-budgetting process toward greater cost-effectiveness of government.

BURKE

Explain a little bit more about what you're saying.

HIRSCH

I think it can assist government to act in the socially most desirable and most productive manner and make intelligent trade off decisions. Do we want to benefit from the fact that we know to build a much more powerful airplane, but have uncertainties what the costs are, costs and performances will be? Or are we going to stay another year or two with the old model, where we know what we have, and we know the costs and performance?

BURKE

Do you see any connection between your early life or your upbringing, and your philosophy of the role of government, and your interest in these techniques for making government cost-effective?

HIRSCH

No, I don't think so, except for one part, and that was my unfortunate experience in Germany. I mean, that had a great bearing on me, in terms of a country that -- starting in the '30s, until the end of World War II -- was really pursuing pretty much the same kind of approach that the Soviet Union was using. And yes, that affected me. I don't want to be told what to do. I want to be given an environment that helps me be socially responsible.

BURKE

And the -- and are you referring to the Weimar Republic, or are you referring to the Hitler regime?

HIRSCH

Right.

BURKE

Which one? Or both?

HIRSCH

No, no, no. The Hitler regime.

BURKE

OK. And in what way were you being told what to do?

HIRSCH

I couldn't even go to school. Relatives were taken into concentration camps and all that.

BURKE

OK.

HIRSCH

You couldn't be in business; you couldn't be in academia; you couldn't be a professor.

BURKE

If you were a Jew.

HIRSCH

yes.

BURKE

Well, as long as we're on that topic, just briefly -- were there other instances that you can recall of the Nazis affecting your family life, or your life -- your early life? Apart from being forced to leave your school.

HIRSCH

Only to a relatively minor extent, in that my parents had had a small store, and that -- there was not much interference. But anyhow, I think -- to answer your overall question, this, to me, surely -- this alerted me to the role of government, and the non-role of government. And I believe therefore it's -- society should be able to create an environment -- not to repeat myself -- where it brings the best out of people, for themselves and socially for the community.

BURKE

So your experience during 1930s Germany opened your eyes to what you feel should be the proper role of government.

HIRSCH

Don't forget, at the very end, I was 16 years old only.

BURKE

Right, right. Well, probably some of these ideas have clarified for you over the years.

HIRSCH

yes, coming in and going to college and all that -- college had an effect on me.

BURKE

Right, right. Now, getting back to Program Budgeting System -- this caught the eye of the President of the United States, I believe.

HIRSCH

Oh, yes. Because that volume was brought to the attention of the President, and I think what I was reading to you --

BURKE

And the book that you have open there is called -- what?

HIRSCH

That is called "Program Budgeting," and the subtitle is "Program Analysis and the Federal Government."

BURKE

And you are the -- one of the co-authors, or the author?

HIRSCH

No, no, no. The editor is David Novick, and there were eleven of us who were doing certain parts of it. I did two or three chapters. But I think you might be interested in this statement. Here it is: an event occurred on -- and you stop me if you don't want -- August 25, 1965, President Johnson's announced at his news conference that Program Budgeting was to be introduced into the entire establishment. "This morning, I have just concluded a breakfast meeting with the Cabinet and the heads of federal agencies, and I'm asking -- " -- here, you can read --

BURKE

No, that's OK. Please continue.

HIRSCH

"-- each of them to immediately begin to introduce a very new and very revolutionary system of planning and programming and budgeting throughout the vast federal government, so that through the tools of modern management the full promise of a finer life can be brought to every American at the lowest possible cost." That's a strong statement.

BURKE

That's very strong. And you're reading from the foreword to your book.

HIRSCH

That's a quote -- I mean, David Novick says here, something before the foreword, this announcement by the President.

BURKE

Oh, OK. How did you feel at the time that Lyndon Johnson ordered the government to implement the system that you had helped create?

HIRSCH

Well, it was satisfying, by all means, yes.

BURKE

And it -- as you just read, it held the promise of revolutionizing government.

HIRSCH

yes. And here you had a powerful man, and he was a politician; he could make things work. As a matter of fact he ordered that a special staff be established in each department and so on, to see that this would be implemented.

BURKE

Did that happen?

HIRSCH

yes.

BURKE

And was the promise of Program Budgeting fulfilled, would you say?

HIRSCH

It surely -- I think as I said earlier, in its full -- perhaps not to the extent that one would have hoped, but the idea that rather than having a -- what we had before, inflation was 5%, so you're going to get 5% for the department, without any reference as to how effectively that money would be used -- nobody asked the question -- in order to fulfill this and this function, what kind of activities are needed, and how do they contribute to the achievement of the objective of the department? That's a powerful way of looking at it. In fact, that was the most important -- lasting effect that it formalized. A process, I think, that not only government, but also many of us are trying to use -- in a less comprehensive and sophisticated way. My daughter, who is an orthopedic surgeon -- whenever she talks to somebody about any affliction, and what ways are there to cure it, she starts talking about, what are the benefits and what are the costs? So it really -- I think it did, to some extent enter the whole way that we try to handle our private and public affairs. And again, credit to Mrs. Thatcher; she made the first contact with me. It wasn't David Howell or the other people.

BURKE

Well, now, tell us about this. Mrs. Thatcher had also heard about this system, and she --

HIRSCH

yes. She came to this country quite often, and somehow the British Consul General made arrangements for her to come to my office.

BURKE

And this was when she was the leader of the Conservative Party, is that correct?

HIRSCH

Now, let me just be quite clear about that. That was when she was the leader of the opposition, preparing for taking over government.

BURKE

Right, I think that would have been in the mid-'70s, does that sound right?

HIRSCH

I can look it up. As a matter of fact, I have a letter from her here that it was April 1968. --

BURKE

OK. Well, she was Leader of the Opposition Party.

HIRSCH

yes. You see, that's -- I was then -- I guess I very often got into London, and she made sure that one time I would address the Shadow Cabinet in the House of Commons in the major Hall. And that's what I did. But they were still in opposition.

BURKE

Now, tell us about your first meeting with her. I understand that she came to your office at UCLA, is that correct?

HIRSCH

The arrangements -- yes. The arrangements were made by the Consul General -- would I see her? Obviously, I would.

BURKE

Tell me about that first meeting with Margaret Thatcher.

HIRSCH

Well, she is -- do you know anything about her background?

BURKE

A little bit, yes.

HIRSCH

She is a self-made person. Her parents had a grocery store, and they lived above it, and that's where she was brought up.

BURKE

Well, now, that's interesting, don't you think?

HIRSCH

Well, sure. No, no, but it's interesting for England, that has such a long tradition -- I mean, very few people have ever believed that a woman could become prime minister, among other things. The local government gave her the money to go to Oxford, and she got an undergraduate degree at Oxford, I think, in the physical sciences.

BURKE

So you're a great admirer of hers.

HIRSCH

Over the long years of being in power, yes.

BURKE

But at any rate, she --

HIRSCH

She is enormously important, virtually all of what happened in England after her -- what happened in Germany, and in some of the other western countries -- is very much influenced by her, because she took on Labour, among other things, and introduced these scientific methods.

BURKE

And one of them was yours.

HIRSCH

Well --

BURKE

Partly yours.

HIRSCH

I helped her, and then met all these interesting people.

BURKE

So anyway, she -- your first meeting was at UCLA; she came to your office and she told you that she was interested in Program Budgeting, is that right?

HIRSCH

yes. And -- would I explain it to her, and so on and so forth, and talk about perhaps it not being just bound by the uniqueness of a country, but how would it fit into England, and so on and so forth. And from then on, each time I was in London. The interesting thing was, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer Lord Barber became interested in it. I had an interest in the governance of England, and I once dared to ask him the most important question that I can ask him. In the English system the Chancellor of the Exchequer produces the budget, and introduces it, without showing it to the Prime Minister. And I said, is that true? Is that what you did? He said, "yes." Unbelievable.

BURKE

Now, why do you say it's unbelievable?

HIRSCH

The budget basically means the plan and what you're going to do in the country next year. And that is being prepared and put before the House of Commons -- without consultation with the Prime Minister, by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Anyhow, that's a side story.

BURKE

(laughter) OK. And as you mentioned, she invited you to address the Shadow Cabinet --

HIRSCH

Shadow Cabinet.

BURKE

-- which is the -- an opposition, right? So that was before she became --

HIRSCH

Like this country, the Brits do indeed -- under the leadership of its leader -- establish -- pick people to represent this and this and this area. And that's -- in the Cabinet. That's the Shadow Cabinet.

BURKE

And you addressed them on the subject of PBS.

HIRSCH

yes.

BURKE

And you maintained a friendship with --

HIRSCH

I don't know whether you can call it a friendship, but we had a positive relationship. By the way, that -- after I made my presentation, she called my wife in the hotel, and said, "Would you please come for dinner with us?" And we had dinner in the House of Commons, and her husband drove us home later on, and bitched about high taxes in England -- he was a very rich man. But anyhow.

BURKE

And so did -- this relationship, I think, continued for many years, during her term as Prime Minister?

HIRSCH

Oh, sure. Shortly thereafter, she assumed the position of the leader of the government.

BURKE

Did you advise her?

HIRSCH

No. Well, we talked off and on, on these matters. She came out to LA quite frequently, and often I would meet with her.

BURKE

And -- here in Los Angeles, or on campus, or --

HIRSCH

yes, here in Bel Air and other places.

BURKE

Oh, is that right? At your home here?

HIRSCH

Not here, no, no.

BURKE

At a restaurant or something.

HIRSCH

No, we met -- she was meeting under the auspices of the Consul General in a private home or something like that.

BURKE

I see. And you would talk about economic matters?

HIRSCH

Yes. We didn't talk politics.

BURKE

So she really sought you out, as a -- sort of an informal consultant?

HIRSCH

yes. Because -- note, the system in England is very different from ours. As under Johnson, for example, academia was all over the place, as consultants: the English didn't have that. The English government used a handful of academics, that's all. Now, it has changed a bit.

BURKE

OK. I think we're going to end it here, because it's getting a bit late, and we are --

HIRSCH

No, that's fine.

BURKE

-- having some (inaudible) difficulties, and we will pick up where we left off next time.

1.4. Session 4 ( December 12, 2006)

BURKE

This is Anne Burke, and I am here with Professor Werner Hirsch for our fourth session for the Oral History Project, and it is December 12th, 2006. And to start off with, we wanted to go back and clarify a couple points that we talked about during the last session, and one had to do with this economic tool known as Program Budgeting, I'm wondering if, Professor Hirsch, you can maybe define that for us simply.

HIRSCH

Budgeting, basically, is a means by which an institution is pursuing its mission, and as a result, there is a need for a process that permits decision-makers to be effective and efficient in obtaining the goal that has been set, or is being discussed. Now, the big issue is, what is a government's department's mission? How can it allocate funds, and therefore plan the execution towards the attainment of this mission, this objective, so that it is indeed cost-effective and efficient? For example, the department that deals with environment could visualize spending a certain amount of efforts and funds in obtaining an objective of reducing pollution. What is the level that is indeed desirable? In the absolute, you can reduce it to a very low level, but at enormous cost, not only in terms of the industry itself, but resources that otherwise would be used for something that might be more important to society that would have to be neglected. What we are trying to show is that the output-oriented effort is undertaken as we plan and budget next year's use of funds. How much money should go into this and this and this activity that will take this and this form, and at the same time say that we would like to quantify that, namely have numbers, estimates of what it will cost and what the benefits will be.

BURKE

And does it employ the technique that we know as cost-benefit analysis?

HIRSCH

No, cost-benefit is one of the elements. In Program Budgeting, first of all, you have to define the objective, quantify it. Then get an understanding of what are different ways of getting there, and then, what are the costs and benefits of applying these particular efforts? And then look at the totality of how they supplement or compete and effectively use the resources.

BURKE

So it sounds like a very rational way of budgeting. But this wasn't the way that budgeting had been done in the past.

HIRSCH

What we basically did was, we added, more or less, every year, something to a department, in order to keep it going on about the same level -- namely, the new budget was mainly concerned with covering the cost-of-living change. We perpetuated whatever inefficient or efficient use of resources we had.

BURKE

I see. And you mentioned that President Johnson ordered this system implemented at the federal level, and I think you said including the Defense Department. Because McNamara, who was then the Secretary of Defense, was a person who had come through the Ford Company, and he was very sympathetic to this kind of approach.

BURKE

And so he ordered that it be used at the Defense Department?

HIRSCH

Oh, yes.

BURKE

How long did that last?

HIRSCH

I cannot answer that. (laughter)

BURKE

OK. But as you --

HIRSCH

I can answer it this way. It didn't disappear suddenly; it sort of became less powerful, as I said, in part because it really put administrators on the spot. And they were not terribly keen. They were human beings.

BURKE

Right, right. Let's jump over to another point we wanted to clarify, which has to do with the Institute that you were brought to UCLA to head up -- the Institute of Government and Public Affairs. And I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit about the mission of this Institute.

HIRSCH

When I accepted the appointment, I asked myself what were the great issues that we were facing. An example was, can you say something about the challenges that K-12 public education faces? Or a research university faces? Or, how do we deal with poverty, race? Try to find knowledgeable people in the university, and probably even people outside the university, who could join the department, share in financing, to even bring for a year or two, or on a permanent basis, ultimately, persons of this sort into the university? And also, I tried very hard to find scholars at the university who would be willing to work together on advancing knowledge on issues of that sort that seem to loom large. And so, we also had the opportunity to establish some units within the Institute. For example, we managed to get the designation from the federal government to develop, or be the center of dealing with poverty. And we got substantial funds. This made it somewhat easier in many respects, to understand -- to try to understand -- the riots in Watts, and look for solutions. That's why we put a whole team of people in there, a critical mass. So we went -- I basically went around and said, "Now, where are the challenging areas?" And I think we made a reasonably good -- did a reasonably good job, and -- not only in conferencing -- had some national conferences -- but also in terms of publications, and we hoped that it spilled over into the teaching and research of departments.

BURKE

You brought up the Watts Riots again. Do you remember any of the conclusions in your study?

HIRSCH

I must admit, I was not involved in the research itself; I did not go into Watts. I was a facilitator. It was not an area in which had competence. Moreover, it came relatively early in my directing the Institute, so I was keen to stimulate people in areas in which I had competence, and had some kind of record of achievement.

BURKE

Right. But at the same time, do you recall any of the recommendations?

HIRSCH

yes, one stands out in my mind. I haven't thought about this in years; thanks for asking me. We were greatly concerned -- and I too -- as to why Watts was such an explosive area, physical area. And one reason was that there was no way for people, of an age where they could be gainfully employed, to have a job outside Watts, because there was no public transportation. I remember that distinctly. That was one of our recommendations, ultimately, that we had to get public transportation into Watts and out of Watts.

BURKE

Does that seem to have happened?

HIRSCH

Not too much. And today, Watts isn't what it was, both in ethnicity and (inaudible)-- et cetera.

BURKE

Uh-huh. But about the public transportation --

HIRSCH

Well, all throughout the metropolitan area, transportation is in very bad shape in many respects, for good reasons, and others not. To build a subway that starts nowhere and ends nowhere for billions of dollars -- is not a solution to the problem.

BURKE

OK. And the subway you're referring to is --

HIRSCH

Beg pardon?

BURKE

The subway that you're referring to is which one?

HIRSCH

That's the one that goes three or four or five miles downtown. But on the other hand, there are ways -- they don't cost money, but they really require a lot of political courage and integrity to institute them. The mayor of London has instituted one of these, with great success.

BURKE

Which one are you referring to?

HIRSCH

Basically, what he has said and has done, that if you want to get into a downtown area, you have to have a permit. And you go beyond it, you can have these days in your car an electronic device that will register somewhere else where you were at what time, how long; and therefore you get a bill, without indication, though, who it was. You only register, because it's a First Amendment issue. You do not try to pursue and provide information where somebody was, at what time, when and where. But you send him or her a bill; the computer just puts it all together -- he gets a monthly bill. And if you suddenly find that you had three times what you thought you had to pay for the right to pass through downtown, or park, and so on --

BURKE

And what's the relevance of that in connection, with the issue of people in Watts or South Los Angeles not being served well enough by public transportation?

HIRSCH

Well, insofar as Watts is concerned, the most important thing was to provide public transportation. But at the same time, there were also significant numbers of people who were traveling through Watts, and those numbers could have been reduced if you would have had this kind of system. Even people from out of town -- if they want to go through there, they will be charged a fee.

BURKE

If they want to go through Watts?

HIRSCH

Through Watts, or in the neighborhood of it. Anyhow, transportation has been a very difficult thing to solve in a community that many decades ago decided that pouring concrete was superior to using public transportation and move people more effectively.

BURKE

You're talking about the buses versus subway argument?

HIRSCH

Well, not just buses, that's a subset. What I'm saying is, if you pour concrete, as we have done here in the Los Angeles area -- so we have -- we started out with a relatively efficient freeway system. Our community was spread out, and it's very hard to remedy this. And you don't have even a center, unlike San Francisco (and New York and so on). I tried to tell students, "Close your eyes, and somebody says San Francisco; what do you see?" They'd all say they see Knob Hill. (laughter) That's indicative. If you say that about Los Angeles -- what do you see when you close your eyes -- what do you see?

BURKE

Well, there's not a particular landmark that I'm picturing. (laughter)

HIRSCH

It's more diffused.

BURKE

Yes.

HIRSCH

So anyhow, you ask me for one particular finding that I remember; I mention this relationship between providing employment opportunities, income, on the one hand, is access to jobs. That loomed large, as I remember it.

BURKE

Right. When you look at Watts today, what do you think?

HIRSCH

Well, as I understand it -- and I have not been lately in Watts -- the community is undergoing an enormous change, in terms of ethnicity and race. Like Inglewood, when I started working here on urban problems, Inglewood was a community that was almost entirely white.

BURKE

Is that right?

HIRSCH

It ain't today. (laughter)

BURKE

No, no. But you're talking about a much bigger Latino population in South Los Angeles?

HIRSCH

Partly, it was also the black community moved into other areas. There were wide areas that made room for a greater number of black citizens; in recent years, blacks have been replaced by Latinos. Note that only 8% of the students in the Los Angeles Unified School District are white.

BURKE

Is that right?

HIRSCH

Yes.

BURKE

And the significance of mentioning that is what --

HIRSCH

It's a change. 40 years ago, would you assume that such a small percent of students of K-12 would be white? And there's no value judgement involved; these are the facts, that there's great mobility. And this means great challenges.

BURKE

But getting back to Watts, and the issue of poverty among African-Americans, racial discord or harmony in Los Angeles -- what do you see when you look at the community of Watts today?

HIRSCH

I cannot answer that; I really have not been down that way. But my understanding is that there has been enormous turnover, in terms of population.

BURKE

Now, I want to switch gears here a bit, and talk about Clark Kerr, who was the president of the UC when you came to UCLA, in the early 1960s, I believe. Your relationship with him goes back a bit further. Could you talk about how the two of you met?

HIRSCH

Well, it happened when I received my PhD degree, and was offered a position in the Economics Department. He was one of the most senior people, that was Clark Kerr.

BURKE

In the Economics Department at Berkeley.

HIRSCH

Economics and the Business School. And interestingly enough, South Hall, which is one of the oldest buildings still today in Berkeley housed both the Economics and the Business School -- there were two sides in South Hall. So we had a lot of give-and-take. And in those days, you see, you would see your students in a huge room; you had a desk and you'd see students there. You wouldn't see them in your office.

BURKE

Oh, is that right?

HIRSCH

So you had many occasions to meet with people in the department. There was no cloistering.

BURKE

Is that right? Is it different than it is today? Or was it different back then than it is today?

HIRSCH

No -- today we don't have that system at all; we have no place where office hours are held other than your office.

BURKE

And so that was the environment in which you met Clark Kerr.

HIRSCH

(inaudible). But as time went on, we had common interests, because he had come back from some time in England, and had an important vision. Namely, the University of California cannot continue to become increasingly a collection of campuses that would all try to emulate the best of all campuses -- Berkeley. So he was looking for some diversity, and he -- together with the former chairman of the political science department at UCLA, Dean McHenry. And they decided, let's emulate Oxbridge, and have colleges in campuses..

BURKE

He had this -- you're saying he had this vision when he was president.

HIRSCH

That vision -- well, just like coming out with a new theory, or a contribution to knowledge, I think it's virtually impossible to determine when it started. And quite often, it sort of -- it's a very slow process. I have only one example that I know, of a man who made a major contribution that led to a Nobel Prize, that I can identify exactly where, when, and how he discovered -- he made that contribution. He was on, I think it was, Eastern -- shortly thereafter -- sitting in London at a tennis match, and suddenly an idea came to him.

BURKE

Who was that?

HIRSCH

Dennis Gabor.

BURKE

Let's go back to Clark Kerr. Are you saying that he was thinking along the lines of this Oxbridge model even as early -- even when he was in the Economics Department at UC Berkeley?

HIRSCH

Well, he was in the Business School and Economics Department. I would assume that his experience in England -- and it is a very stimulating experience, I can testify to this, at Oxbridge -- is he saw there something that was itself of great value, because it brought together people in a way that would lead to great stimulus between people, and a lifelong association. And most likely, as he became president, by that time some of these idea had already formalized in his mind.

BURKE

OK. Well, we'll talk about that Oxbridge model, if I can go back to UC Berkeley -- I read an anecdote that you'd tell about a baby cradle. Do you remember that?

HIRSCH

Yes.

BURKE

Can you tell us?

HIRSCH

Well, again, that shows -- the post-war period was not an easy period. But it was one of sharing. At Berkeley, we had a system that one member would pass on the baby, whatever you call it, to the next one, depending on who had a baby at that time. We got it from the Clarks in this instance -- yes.

BURKE

A bassinet, I believe, is a better way to describe it.

HIRSCH

That's the right term, yes. So it was really a community, which is somewhat at risk today, particularly because you don't have to be in the same room at the same time in order to do research and to exchange ideas, because of the high tech Revolution that we have.

BURKE

Videoconferencing, and --

HIRSCH

Well, not video. I mean, you do your research at home.

BURKE

Right, because of the internet.

HIRSCH

Oh, yes, I think at that time, all of us showed up in the morning, and went home in the late afternoon.

BURKE

Is that right? That doesn't often happen today. (laughter) Well, it seems to me -- this is a little bit off the subject, but it seems to me that many faculty prefer working at home, and a lot of them consider the less time, the better, spent on campus.

HIRSCH

Two aspects that I see. One is time spent. Again, program budgeting comes in -- it's cost-effective not to work on campus, if you don't have to work at a bench (physics or chemistry). Because here, we just were talking about the time that it takes to get from home to work, and the nerve-wracking experience, et cetera, et cetera. You avoid that. And at the same time, when you work at home, as a philosopher or an English professor, other than not being able to exchange ideas in a personal way, you might be very effective and productive. On the other hand, it's not clear at all that something very important doesn't get lost. Because I believe that the proximity is important. The present president of the University of California, namely Robert Dynes, told me once, we belong to an organization that would meet about every two months on a Saturday to talk about the issues that face higher education, particularly the University of California. And one day, the two of us were sitting alone at a table, and we got to talking, and he said, "You know, the most important contributions I made occurred at a water fountain."

BURKE

Well -- I'm sorry, say that again? The trough(?)

HIRSCH

You want to go and drink some water. What do you call this? Water --

BURKE

Tap?

HIRSCH

Tap, yes, something like that. He says, "Then you start talking about things really at the cutting edge -- often you talk about things you are deeply concerned about, and you share that with somebody else, and you get a very lively conversation, and it's very fruitful. And there are -- very often there are positive and negative sides to it. And again, Program Budgeting can come in -- (inaudible) a lot of opportunities for people to meet and make their contributions, at the cost of really having to travel and being disturbed by students -- exclamation marks. Anyhow, this -- that was one occasion. But then, a highlight, I think, of our getting together, was -- I served for quite a few years as a trustee of the Berkeley Museum. And one year, we asked Clark Kerr -- that was after he retired -- to join us at lunch. And again, the greatness of his vision comes out. He mentioned in a short talk that when he was Chancellor at Berkeley, he went East one day, and was concerned about attracting faculty. And he found that many of the truly important scientists and scholars looked upon California as the backwoods of America. And here, he decided -- what we need is a great museum on the Berkeley campus, because that would attract great scholars and scientists. That's how the first museum of Berkeley was founded and built.

BURKE

The University Art Museum, which is a fabulous museum.

HIRSCH

Well, it's being torn down, because (seismic problem). It is adjacent to the building of The School of Environmental Design. Today, we would call architecture. It's called the -- I forgot the name of -- the school, its name. So these two buildings are next to one another, and both are found to be seismically unsafe.

BURKE

Oh, I didn't know that.

HIRSCH

The architecture people built something that was unsafe -- the museum was built only about 30-35 years ago. And today, Berkeley is trying to raise about $60 million in order to build a new museum, quite far removed from where the old museum is.

BURKE

OK. And I wanted to get into art maybe a little bit later, and your interest in art: you're an art collector and a patron of the arts, it may be fair to say?

HIRSCH

No...

BURKE

No, not a patron of the arts. OK.

HIRSCH

A lover of the arts.

BURKE

OK. But I do want to go back to before Clark Kerr was appointed Chancellor of Berkeley. This was the era of loyalty oaths, and I wonder if you could talk about -- (break in tape)

BURKE

We were talking about loyalty oaths, and this was -- when you came to UC Berkeley late '40s, early '50s -- this was the era of loyalty oaths. Now, were you asked to sign a loyalty oath?

HIRSCH

When I was hired, I am sure I was asked. And I think probably it was justified

BURKE

You mentioned off-tape that you were an immigrant, and you didn't feel that you had much choice in the matter.

HIRSCH

No, I was privileged.

BURKE

And it didn't raise any red flags for you at the time? No pun intended, red flags. But --

HIRSCH

No. None whatsoever. I looked upon this as extremism, of the forces who were (inaudible). And I wasn't qualified. I had been in the country at that time I think three years or something.

BURKE

You weren't qualified to --

HIRSCH

Judge.

BURKE

Say, you weren't in a position -- oh, you weren't qualified to judge. OK. Because you were a newcomer to the country, more or less.

HIRSCH

Right. I mean, I took a course in American history and so on for students, but that's all I knew.

BURKE

I'm sorry, were you going to make another point about the loyalty oaths?

HIRSCH

Beg pardon?

BURKE

Were you going to make another point about the loyalty oaths?

HIRSCH

I think it was very destructive. And it's to this day that the leadership, of those who still are alive, feel that it affected the psyche of senior faculty at Berkeley, the loyalty oath issue.

BURKE

Well, some refused to sign, is that right?

HIRSCH

The whole atmosphere it made -- I mean, many of the unique characteristics -- particularly the one of rebellion and so on of some faculty taking some very extreme positions -- there are people who traced that back to the fact that it left a mark and a burden on the faculty. It was very destructive.

BURKE

Well, make that connection -- I'm not sure I understand that connection that you're making between the loyalty oath issue and what I think you're calling rebelliousness on the part of the faculty later on.

HIRSCH

No, let me put it this way. Here -- I described to you that the faculty was almost like a family, the department was. Take my department in 1949. You had -- the chairmen of the department I mentioned earlier was very active, not necessarily because of philosophy, but in his role as a leader of the Senate --

BURKE

He was very active in what?

HIRSCH

Tried to negotiate between the position that the Regents took and what the faculty took.

BURKE

In regard to loyalty oaths.

HIRSCH

He had some people who -- I don't remember how many -- who wouldn't sign, and others would say, "Well, it's all right." So it led to an enormous friction within the department, imposed from the outside. And it had a lasting effect. And I've heard later chancellors of Berkeley refer to this experience as still a background of some people, to the extent that they're still alive, in dealing with policy issues at the university.

BURKE

In what way does this issue still live --

HIRSCH

It takes, every so often, positions that are not universally accepted.

BURKE

Faculty members do. But what does that have to do with the loyalty oath issue?

HIRSCH

Well, the loyalty issue was so destructive; it really took apart departments, the college and the university; and really put it -- it was a terrible experience.

BURKE

Because the Regents were forcing the faculty to do something that they felt was morally --

HIRSCH

Wrong.

BURKE

-- wrong.

HIRSCH

And moreover, it was inconsistent with what this country stood for.

BURKE

And so as a result of that, to this day --

HIRSCH

I couldn't prove it, and I'm not taking that position. But I have quite frequently shaken my head and said, "Well, look at these colleagues at Berkeley -- well, it gets back to the days of the loyalty oath."

BURKE

So a lot of them did not forgive and forget the -- would you call it resentment that lives on, or -- how would you describe it?

HIRSCH

I don't know whether that's resentment, but it was an event which had a lasting effect on the values and the esteem of certain faculty for the Regents --

BURKE

Is it that some who signed felt they signed under pressure, under duress, and --

HIRSCH

Oh, yes, there's some. But look at David Saxon, who later became president of NC. He recently passed away -- he did not sign, and he was not resentful. He said if that's what's required, I will do it. And he also wanted to show that he was an independent. But you see, this was a source of friction, that those who sign up versus those who didn't sign. Those who didn't sign really felt that they were being pushed into a corner, and did not get support from their colleagues. And this, as I see it, was so contra to what the geniality of Berkeley was. I think I described to you, for example, the greatness of -- at the end of World War II, full professors became interested -- hey, we have young people, we have to get them education. There was nobody who would not agree, and sit down at a table.

BURKE

You're referring to your experience being admitted to UC Berkeley.

HIRSCH

(inaudible) I was one of tens of thousands, yes. And this was very destructive, there's no doubt about it.

BURKE

The loyalty oaths.

HIRSCH

yes.

BURKE

And it caused friction that persists to this day between the Regents and the faculty ---

HIRSCH

Also within the faculty.

BURKE

Also within the Berkeley faculty.

HIRSCH

Those who didn't sign -- how did they look, in some instances, on those who signed?

BURKE

yes. Do you recall any of the professors who refused to sign it at UCLA?

HIRSCH

Well, one was David Saxon, obviously.

BURKE

He signed --

HIRSCH

He did not sign --

BURKE

Oh, he did not sign. Oh, OK.

HIRSCH

I think Aaron Gordon, but I am not quite sure. I'm almost sure that Aaron Gordon didn't sign, talking about Economics. But it's too long ago.

BURKE

Right, right. What was Clark Kerr's role with -- in the whole loyalty oath issue? First as a faculty member, and later as Chancellor at Berkeley. Do you recall?

HIRSCH

I believe that was an issue before he became Chancellor.

BURKE

Right, right, right.

HIRSCH

And he had to cope, later on -- put these two groups together again. Faculty groups. And eke out a modus vivendi between faculty. And remember, at that time, Berkeley had perhaps the best faculty in the hard sciences in the world. These were the heavy hitters. Some of them had been trained in Germany.

BURKE

I'm sorry?

HIRSCH

This was a very important event that was remembered, and mostly like preoccupied for many many years, faculty who had been through that.

BURKE

Do you recall if Clark Kerr signed a loyalty oath?

HIRSCH

I do not know. I do not know.

BURKE

And where did you fit into all of this, this friction and discord?

HIRSCH

I told you, when you got a PhD, and you were hired with a PhD, you were not an assistant professor; you were an instructor. And you were not a member of the Senate. And this was really an issue that was really a topic in which the Senate played a very major role.

BURKE

The Academic Senate?

HIRSCH

So I wasn't --

BURKE

-- eligible for this.

HIRSCH

No. I even couldn't go to the meetings.

BURKE

And you were pretty young.

HIRSCH

Yes. I was -- let's see, we're talking now about 19--

BURKE

Around 50.

HIRSCH

Oh, '50, yes. I was 30 years old.

BURKE

OK. Not so young. But you do recall this discord. How did it manifest itself?

HIRSCH

Well, friendships were broken. That's the best way to describe it, within the faculty. And these were very basic issues -- this was freedom of expression; this was First Amendment rights and so on. And this is where faculty comes in. This, as I can remember it, reduced the productivity of the faculty.

BURKE

Really?

HIRSCH

Oh, sure. The time that was spent in discussing it, and hiding this from one another. We could have spent that doing research, or seeing students.

BURKE

Were those -- well, you mentioned at Berkeley, there were only -- you can only recall maybe a couple who refused to sign.

HIRSCH

Oh, no, no. There were many.

BURKE

Oh, there were many. Oh, OK.

HIRSCH

I'm -- as a young instructor, I mainly knew the people who were in South Hall; I didn't know the engineers -- I'm sure, there was less of a friction between faculty than there would have been in philosophy or history.

BURKE

And what about Economics?

HIRSCH

Well, Economics -- we were a pretty forward-looking faculty. I think by and large, you would say, to make these terms mean anything -- clearly First Amendment rights played a very important role in our life and in our values.

BURKE

So does that mean that there tended to be a lot of discord and disharmony on the Economics staff, among those who did and didn't sign? Or are you saying that the majority refused to sign, or -- what are you saying by that?

HIRSCH

No, no. I think the majority signed. But again -- it was too long ago for me to remember. But it was not only whether you signed or not that you spent time on it. It was a topic of conversation, and a very heated debate, regardless of whether you were at the cutting edge or not. It had a very chilling effect on the faculty, as I remember it.

BURKE

A chilling effect on research.

HIRSCH

yes. (inaudible) what a great university stands for.

BURKE

And explain what you mean by that?

HIRSCH

Well, academics pride themselves on being independent in pursuing ideas and ideals, and fight to the end for these ideals, particularly in the soft sciences, and the humanities.

BURKE

And so it caused certain members of the faculty to question the university's commitment to open inquiry, or the Regent's commitment to --?

HIRSCH

Well, remember, Regents, who are written into the Constitution, their role is written into the Constitution -- they basically are the ones who are making the ultimate decision, and they're the ones who basically accepted the mission to have faculty sign.

BURKE

And so faculty really questioned the Regents' commitment to these ideals that the university was supposed to be upholding.

HIRSCH

Now, again, it's a difficult issue, because Regents have different objective functions than faculty. Faculty tries to be purists; Regents have to weigh the losses that occur if they fight the legislature or the governor, budget, et cetera et cetera. And honest people can honorably disagree. That was not an issue for the faculty; faculty doesn't look at this.

BURKE

Did there tend to be more anger on the part of those who refused to sign? Which --

HIRSCH

I don't know that I can really speak to this, because again, remember, I was at the lower end of the totem pole; I was first year, second year, and an instructor. As I mentioned, I did not go to Senate meetings.

BURKE

OK. So this controversy started before Clark Kerr became Chancellor, and then what did he do about it when he became Chancellor of Berkeley? You mentioned --

HIRSCH

(inaudible). I mean, once you had the separation of those who signed and those who didn't sign. It started slowly -- and as I said earlier, until quite recently -- it was still something that was lingering on in the mind of people, and resentment. But he -- I think he intentionally really was not at the forefront of the fight. But once he became Chancellor, he took a stronger position. But remember, his Chancellorship was limited according to his biography -- he wasn't the Chancellor. (laughter)

BURKE

Wait, I'm sorry, he -- say that again?

HIRSCH

He was appointed Chancellor, but he had few rights of today's Chancellors. Why? Because when he was appointed by the Regents, President Robert Gordon Sproul assigned to him a rather small office. I think he had either no or one secretary. He was coming home one late night via plane to Oakland, the plane had been late, and he had to take a taxi. He had to go and get an OK from President Sproul so that he could get reimbursed.

BURKE

Oh, is that right? (laughter)

HIRSCH

Robert Gordon Sproul was a very powerful man; he was really looked up to as being the leader of the university. The Regents' action to establish campuses -- and particularly Chancellors -- I don't think was something that he was very happy about.

BURKE

He wasn't happy about the role of the Chancellor?

HIRSCH

That there were any Chancellors. He was used to running the university out of his office. He had one person as a vice-president, philosopher Monroe Deutsch, and that was it. So he was the university.

BURKE

Robert Gordon Sproul was.

HIRSCH

I think he had been a classmate of Earl Warren, so he had very good outside relationships.

BURKE

Well, so the situation is obviously that the power structure is obviously very different today, with the President's Office and the various Chancellors. What role did Clark Kerr play in shaping this job of Chancellor?

HIRSCH

An enormous one, because before he really became president, an enormous amount of staff and budgets for staff was concentrated in the President's Office. And one of the things that Clark Kerr did, he freed quite a few of these positions and pushed them into the campuses. He really strengthened the campuses. And he had another characteristic that was good, but had unforeseen side effects -- he was very fair. When it came to new campuses, and during his presidency we built new campuses -- he made the decision to support new campuses more so than some of the established ones, in order to give them a chance to grow. And I think that was a very decent act --

BURKE

Was that controversial?

HIRSCH

Well, I'm not sure to what extent it was seen. We were not necessarily very transparent, when it came to decision-making on that level. But that was his philosophy, that he had to nourish the young ones. On the other hand, that's the negative side, as he did so, it made it easier for the young campuses to invest so heavily in becoming another Berkeley.

BURKE

But that's a pretty still challenge, to become another Berkeley.

HIRSCH

Well, yes and no. Many of us who have been reasonably close to the situation feel that, for example, the Chancellor of Santa Cruz, who later on became the number two person under President Dynes, namely, I think her title was provost -- she was a hard scientist; she totally abolished the philosophy on which Santa Cruz was built, and cut these beautiful sequoia trees, and put science buildings there, so that today, in the eyes of knowledgeable people, the science court at Santa Cruz is not only more up-to-date and modern, but in many respects larger, than the one in Berkeley.

BURKE

Well, let's go back to Clark Kerr. What was your relationship with him like after he became president?

HIRSCH

Well, he was in Berkeley, and I was at UCLA. We would meet off and on, but he would come out here to Los Angeles, and we had correspondence. Then, as I mentioned, for example, his interest in art and my membership as a trustee and so on. So then we would meet.

BURKE

And to talk about what kinds of matters?

HIRSCH

Well, he had, obviously, he had enormous interest and capacity to think through the role of the research -- the public research university in the later part of the 20th, and the first part of the 21st century. And he also joined, when he was forced out of office, the Carnegie effort in education. So we would meet in what we might call issues that relate to the governance of universities in general, and research in particular; that has been an area of concern to me for quite some time.

BURKE

When you were talking about Clark Kerr and the Oxbridge model, I interrupted you. Did you want to explain that a little bit more in-depth?

HIRSCH

Well, Oxford and Cambridge, both are built on colleges. As a matter of fact, the wealth is in the colleges, not in the university. The assets, land and so on, and much of the budget, is really not controlled, or quite sparingly controlled, by the university. So on the other hand, that's where students get the education, in the college. And the most important part, in my view, because both at Oxford and Cambridge I spent time, is the informal education at High Table; perhaps the most important education is informal. compared to certain low-income groups and immigrants and blah blah blah. So the High Table is part of the surroundings. Before you sit down for dinner, first of all in cap and gown, you go and have drinks in the common room, and you sit next to faculty and so on. And after you had three or four different drinks at dinner, you go back to the common room and have -- now, it's time for sherry. Anyhow, it's a culture, but it's one that is very conducive to being creative, different, tolerant and so on. He thought that this was an alternative to Berkeley. Berkeley was just the opposite, because even after Sproul was retired and was no longer president -- but still Berkeley has been run by the Chancellor in the fullest sense, not the Senate. So he, together with Dean McHenry thought to emulate Oxbridge. The two had the opportunity, and Clark Kerr established Santa Cruz, and McHenry became the first Chancellor. So it was very, very different. It failed in some sense.

BURKE

Why did it fail?

HIRSCH

The tradition of Oxbridge, of being organized into colleges -- you cannot emulate a long, deep-seated tradition. Can you visualize cap and gown to have your hamburger at UCLA cafeterias?

BURKE

No, I can't.

HIRSCH

It's one manifestation -- as a matter of fact, what we do is to have our students, at least some of them, go to eat in their undershirts and barefoot. I served for five years, until recently when I resigned, as the faculty representative, on the board of ASUCLA, and I spent much of my good will in trying to make some effort to get faculty closer to the students, and to eat. Together, all I got is that six or seven times a year, 10-20 students eat with a faculty member. That's not it. Anyhow, it's really difficult, for our whole way of life is different.

BURKE

You tried to create some sort of atmosphere in which students and faculty would dine together. And --

HIRSCH

That's an enormous opportunity to have lunch together, and engage in a discussion of substance, and not come in barefoot, as I said, in an undershirt, and run in and out. It's an enormous opportunity lost. Didn't get anywhere.

BURKE

What venue did you have in mind?

HIRSCH

What I had hoped was that there would be more efforts to attract faculty to eat at the different eating places that ASUCLA has, and to bring about more of a give-and-take. For example ASUCLA has perhaps the largest halls, which they rent out for money, rather than do something to have faculty and students interact.

BURKE

Such as Ackerman.

HIRSCH

Well, not only Ackerman; all over. There are a lot of places. And only few faculty member ever show up at places, and there are quite a few, where students study, at ASUCLA facilities. No, the culture of our students is so different from the culture of Oxford and Cambridge students; it's just amazing. (inaudible), We rented a house that belonged to Lady Poston, who had a high title, and her husband was an economic historian from Russia. And it was not very far from King's Chapel in Cambridge, with a lot of interesting activities, and so on. We would walk at night either to the Chapel or from the Chapel, and we would just listen to the conversation between these students. An enormous amount of learning and sophistication.

BURKE

OK. Well, I let us jump ahead a bit there, but we might want to come back to that. I think we're going to stop for the day, and pick up next time.

HIRSCH

You did not permit me to clarify my position on the role of government, right?

BURKE

I apologize.

HIRSCH

No, no, no.

BURKE

Let's do that, let's do that right now. I apologize for that. Yes, you wanted to clarify your philosophy of the role of government.

HIRSCH

Well, I'd like to look upon government as a facilitator of a society where both people as well as industry make decisions that are socially sensitive. And therefore, the marketplace can be helpful. But there are a large number of very important decisions where the marketplace does not work -- war and peace, environment. These are mainly issues where there are differences in the time horizon of a person towards attaining an end, versus the duration of the phenomenon when it gives -- it really comes to fruition. For example, in the environment. If we wait until we realize that the icebergs are disappearing, and the side effects for society are enormous, we cannot hope that today the right decisions are being made by the citizens; the marketplace doesn't work.

BURKE

And in that case, the government has to take on a role that's greater than that of a facilitator.

HIRSCH

yes. You see, the facilitator uses mainly inducements, in order to make -- help people make the right decision. But there are no inducements today for us to really deal with the environment, although here, too, we are -- in one of books, I developed that -- we have now a system which actually is being in use. This air pollution district, where we are trading pollution rights. You know what that means. So there, we use the market. And a minor power we assign to the government, to make the first decision by how much to reduce pollution, and then supervise the trade of these pollution rights. But otherwise, I think the government has to step in.

BURKE

OK. Good. I'm glad you added that. We will continue next time. [END OF AUDIO FILE]

1.5. Session 5 ( December 15, 2006)

BURKE

It is December 15, 2006 and this is Anne Burke and I'm here with Professor Hirsch again. We talked last time about Clark Kerr and I wanted to pick up there again. And I wanted to, Professor Hirsch, I wanted to see if you could tell us a little about the relationship between Clark Kerr and Franklin Murphy, especially in the context of the role of the UC president.

HIRSCH

Well, the relationship between a president of a multi-campus university and the head of any campus, namely a chancellor, is undefined by and large, except for certain limits, and perhaps in addition to the mission that they have. The president is to represent the university, basically, to the Regents, to the legislature, to the governor, and to the people of the state of California. And for example, David Gardner, president -- and over the last four years, as we have discussed these issues, always took the position that the president is really the only spokesman for a university, because Regents are many and so on. On the other hand, Regents work with -- I mean, the president works with Regents in ultimately bringing recommendations to the Regents and the regents work with the president supposedly in fulfilling their obligation of setting policy. They don't meet with chancellors to set policy. It's between the Regents and the president. The budget ultimately has to be submitted to the regents by the president after he has met with chancellors. And oversight of what is going on supposedly anywhere in the university system is the responsibility of the regents that they delegate this by and large. Furthermore, the Regents have delegated virtually all educational decisions to the academic senate and the academic council. Nothing to do with chancellors. As a matter of fact, in many respects, you might say that the academic council needs not to work with the chancellors, other than it would be a mistake; but there's no formal need to do that, because both the president and the academic council represent the university at large. On the other hand, chancellors run into problems of how are we going to educate our students. How do we deal with all these problems that ultimately involve the campus? But at the same time, chancellors also are responsible for running what I consider to be a small city. There's a fire department, there's a police department. We generate electricity here at UCLA and so forth. So, the line where the chancellor can assert his authority in dealing with the president is not clearly defined one. Some chancellors have been quite cooperative with the president and few, very few, have looked at their role as almost independent.

BURKE

And you're referring to Franklin Murphy?

HIRSCH

Franklin, yes, Franklin Murphy, who came to us having been president of the University of Kansas and before that, Dean of the school of medicine. By the way, he and I served together before we came out here, on the board of the Midwest Research Institute in Kansas City. So I've known him for a very long time, yes. I think he was one of the greatest chancellors that the University of California ever had.

BURKE

Well, tell me a little bit more about his -- his ideas about the power of the chancellor's office, or how much power the chancellor's office should have.

HIRSCH

The chancellor is his campus' chief operating officer. Not policy-making to the nth degree as to what the educational system in the University of California should be. As a matter of fact, the chancellors, he or she, somehow have their ideas of how we are going to distinguish ourself as a great research university. They have to go through the president to the regents on the best of circumstances. That assumes that we have active and deeply committed regents, and this assumes that we have a president who really is deeply involved and concerned about the future of the University of California.

BURKE

OK, but can we come back to Clark Kerr and Franklin Murphy on this?

HIRSCH

To the best of my knowledge, it seems that there were occasions where their view of their roles were not necessarily totally consistent.

BURKE

What was Clark Kerr's view?

HIRSCH

Well, Clark Kerr had to act and did enjoy acting as a president. Remember, Clark Kerr innovated, and terribly important innovation, what a system of higher education in California might look like and has to look like because of the various forces that were changing California and the youth of California and the demographics so rapidly, which led to his overt contribution, namely the three-tier system and the California master plan where he had the great fortune, of being helped by McHenry, whom he had known for a long time. He had been a professor of political science of UCLA. They had gone together to Europe. And then he had the good fortune of having a governor who was very keen about using education just as he (to a lesser extent, water project highways and so on) to make California a leading state.

BURKE

And you're referring to Pat Brown?

HIRSCH

To Pat Brown, yes. Pat Brown came to -- he was a -- in many respects, just a wonderful and yet very modest person.

BURKE

Now, I want to get to Pat Brown in a few minutes, but I just want to wrap up this discussion about Clark Kerr and Franklin Murphy if you don't mind.

HIRSCH

No, it's...

BURKE

And OK, so you made a point about Clark Kerr and how he had created this very important master plan and this three-tiered system in education. Well, what about Franklin Murphy on that score, then?

HIRSCH

No, I don't think that that was something that Franklin Murphy participated in. As a matter of fact, if I'm not mistaken, the Master Plan, it was a cooperative effort of the governor and the president of the university. That effort took place before Franklin Murphy came to California.

BURKE

OK, OK. But again, I'm just trying to get a little bit more insight into this -- I don't know if we can call it a dispute or not. It seems from what I've read that it was a dispute between Clark Kerr and Franklin Murphy.

HIRSCH

No, these are different views of the role that a chancellor had and a president had, as I said earlier. That view as to what the role of a chancellor within a system led by a president and regents was differed enormously and has continued to differ as we have different presidents and different chancellors.

BURKE

OK, and Franklin Murphy felt that the chancellors should have -- or a chancellor should have a degree of autonomy.

HIRSCH

Well, not autonomy, but there was a relatively broad slice of responsibility that in turn also required ability to advance programs rather than push them up to the president's office and have the president's office be leading it. And that's good, that's competition between campuses.

BURKE

Hmm, what is your opinion on what you just talked about?

HIRSCH

Well, I'm a firm believer in this instance that a university that has ten campuses, only one specialized -- that's the medical area of the University of California San Francisco -- two that used to be somewhat specialized, one is San Diego which still is quite so because it has continued to emphasize the biological sciences all leading in the university, and one that has moved away from it to some extent, which is Davis. I think that there is need for very powerful decision-making by a president in cooperation with the regents to move the university as an entity rather than staying or being tempted to stay in the same kind of a format that they evolved in, particularly since there is apparently for many chancellors a hope to be able to emulate Berkeley. That leads to great uniformity at a time that what we need is to be experimental and to concentrate in certain campuses and areas where we can gain from specialization.

BURKE

So you're feeling is that a chancellor ought to be able to guide and direct a branch campus to be experimental and to seek to distinguish itself?

HIRSCH

No, a decision has to be made on a higher level, because if you leave it up to each campus and its leadership, in the past it has led to a great emphasis of trying to emulate Berkeley. Again, with Clark Kerr taking the lead, when he became president, and with the help of Pat Brown establishing a campus in Santa Cruz, that emulated Oxbridge. But I don't think that if you leave it up to chancellors without really coordinating that and getting a dialogue going, and getting an agreement ultimately all the way by an active board of regents, if we have one, then the change is going to be haphazard and very, very slow.

BURKE

I see. Now at this time when Franklin Murphy was chancellor at UCLA and Clark Kerr was UC president, you were running the institute that we talked about before at UCLA and doing research and --

HIRSCH

Of government and public affairs, right.

BURKE

-- teaching, how did these differing opinions about the role of the chancellor and the role of the president, how did they play out or how were they manifest to you as a faculty member and a researcher? Were you aware of this? Did you have any role in it?

HIRSCH

No, I didn't have any role. I had the good fortune of knowing both quite well, but I also had the good fortune of knowing David Gardner and actually in terms of the number of years that we have been friends and really cooperating, it's a much longer period that I engaged in cooperation with David Gardner than with either Clark Kerr or Franklin Murphy. And particularly on issues of governance. David Gardner joined the board of the Glion Colloquium where we really dealt with these questions almost on a worldwide basis, with special emphasis on Western Europe and the United States.

BURKE

OK, OK, we'll talk about --

HIRSCH

Right.

BURKE

-- David Gardner. The last time we talked, you mentioned the legacy of loyalty oaths, a very painful legacy in the UC system.

HIRSCH

No, no. Particularly in Berkeley.

BURKE

OK, at Berkeley only.

HIRSCH

At Berkeley. Well, mainly.

BURKE

Well, that's what I was going to ask you. Did this -- did this -- was this legacy felt at UCLA as well as Berkeley?

HIRSCH

My limited observation, which led me to the conclusion that it was much less if at all, but I have often heard particularly since I spent about eight years as a trustee of the Berkeley museum and would get in often. I had very often discussion that basically said we are different because of our experience, leading experience in the loyalty oath issue.

BURKE

And so, there was much less discord at UCLA than there was at Berkeley. I wonder, were faculty members divided into signers and non-signers? Were faculty members aware of...

HIRSCH

I can not answer this because I was a very junior faculty member at Berkeley when the loyalty oath was an issue, and I was not at UCLA.

BURKE

Right. And so it didn't really become much of an issue at UCLA?

HIRSCH

Not truly, not in the sense I have been here in mainly '63. Not, it's not much of an issue.

BURKE

yes, but it still was at that time at Berkeley, is that correct?

HIRSCH

I think at Berkeley it was, and some people who really were deeply involved. Note that at Berkeley at that time, friendships were being broken because Berkeley was at the cutting edge of this problem. I don't think the other campuses were so deeply involved as Berkeley was.

BURKE

Right. We did talk about that before, but as long as you've brought it up, why would you say Berkeley, the situation at Berkeley was so much more intense?

HIRSCH

Well, first of all, administration was in the Bay Area. As a matter of fact, the office of the president, when I got into senate affairs. I was then at UCLA, the office was still in Berkeley, and then it moved to Oakland. It was a proximity. The other was, it was the lead campus.

BURKE

And the proximity, promixity...

HIRSCH

Physical promixity between the regents' staff, which would've been in those days the general Counsel's office. This was before the university moved and made the General Counsel not only responsible to the regents, but also a vice-president, (which in my view, by the way was a mistake) and the Treasurer and so they were all initially at Berkeley and then in Oakland, still in Oakland. And the other one was, look, in the early 1950's, the bulk of the faculty and the excellence in the leadership came out of the Berkeley campus. There were fewer campuses than we have today, and really, none came that close to the importance of Berkeley, having the most distinguished departments of physics, chemistry, blah blah blah, in the world. So they had great people there, and the senate was well organized.

BURKE

What did you -- what did you think about Clark Kerr's firing?

HIRSCH

Well, there's a book, again, that I think was written by David Gardner and I think it indicates that it was in many respects a misunderstanding. The regents politicized the university, because it was, as I understand it, to no small extent partially guided by the governor.

BURKE

Ronald Reagan.

HIRSCH

Governor Reagan. It was no an effort where the -- well, let me put it this way. There is much of a misunderstanding and if you read the biography of Clark Kerr, he feels very strongly that it was an intervention by the governor of the state. But for a distinguished man like Clark Kerr to be sitting, as all presidents sit, with the regents in the Regents meeting, and being informed that he was dismissed immediately without being allowed to complete the agenda he has prepared, is unheard of. And I think it has done great damage in the early days to this university.

BURKE

In what way has it done great damage?

HIRSCH

Well, after his dismissal, Clark Kerr said "I left the presidency of the university as I had entered it, fired with enthusiasm."

BURKE

Now, when to move on to another topic. During the 1960's, you met Pat Brown.

HIRSCH

'63.

BURKE

In 1963, you met Pat Brown? Oh, OK. Tell me a little bit, tell me how you met him.

HIRSCH

Well, that's a long story. I'll try to make it short. I had been working as an advisor to James Webb who was the administrator of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, charged by President Kennedy to organize his departments to reach the moon within a limit -- a short period. He organized a meeting in Oakland, namely Jim Webb, and I don't remember the name of the house. It's a very old beautiful house, wooden, where the meeting took place, and Pat Brown came and we started to talk to one another and we became friends.

BURKE

And he was governor...

HIRSCH

He was governor at the time, yes. Again, shows how informal he was.

BURKE

And this friendship lasted for many years, is that right?

HIRSCH

To his last days. We would have either breakfast or sometimes lunch together about every few months, ever since he came to Los Angeles after he left the office of governor and a short while before he passed away, yes. He was a great inspiration.

BURKE

A great inspiration for you?

HIRSCH

For me, yes. yes.

BURKE

In what way?

HIRSCH

Well, first of all, he was an enormously generous person. His enormous experience and social consciousness. He together, and again that's a very personal view, together with -- let's see, what's his name? Earl Warren. They were giants among governors in the post-war period. What they did for this state is almost unbelievable. And I got to know Pat Brown not only in us having lunch or breakfast, but for example we took our wives and the former attorney general and his wife and a few other people, we went on a two or three day tour of all the irrigation projects that basically first started under his guidance. By bus, we went for two or three days.

BURKE

What was the purpose of the trip?

HIRSCH

Well, partly to celebrate him.

BURKE

Is that right? Because Pat...

HIRSCH

He was responsible for -- for...

BURKE

The California Water Plan.

HIRSCH

The Water Plan and for the university and for much of the highways and so on, yes.

BURKE

(inaudible) So this was Pat Brown and his wife, and you and your wife Esther, and did you say Earl Warren was also with you?

HIRSCH

No, it was a former Attorney General, and I had his name, but -- a Republican by the way.

BURKE

Is that right? (laughter)

HIRSCH

So this was -- it's unbelievable, how this period was different, at least from my limited point of view, from what we have now in terms of partisanship. Let me give you another example. Three or four times over these years, Pat would tell me that when he was Attorney General of the state of California and Earl Warren was the governor, they would take a weekend and the two of them would go fishing together. Can you visualize that today?

BURKE

No, because Pat Brown was a Democrat.

HIRSCH

Oh, yes!

BURKE

And Earl Warren...

HIRSCH

Was a Republican.

BURKE

Was a Republican.

HIRSCH

As a matter of fact, I think it was at the graduation of my wife getting her Ph.D. at Berkeley that Warren was presiding as governor. The celebration was at the football stadium and the speaker was Harry Truman, President Truman, and Earl Warren had to excuse himself and he had to leave early because he had to get back on the road. He was running for Vice President on the Republican ticket. It's just inspiring to have this kind of a period of cooperation, and the state benefited.

BURKE

Now, did you advise Pat Brown on policy matters?

HIRSCH

Well, not in a major way. Not advise. I did not have -- I did not play a formal role.

BURKE

Uh-huh. Did you play an informal role?

HIRSCH

Oh, we discussed a lot of policy issues, yes. And also later on, when he was defeated, at least for 15 years or so I think, he -- I would invite him and he would come, twice or three times a year to address my class in Law and Economics.

BURKE

Oh, is that right?

HIRSCH

yes, and once he brought along -- his daughter who was running for governor, wonderful lady, and she talked to the students. yes, very inspiring.

BURKE

Was that Kathleen?

HIRSCH

Beg your pardon?

BURKE

Is that Kathleen Brown?

HIRSCH

Kathleen, yes.

BURKE

Are there any issues, policy issues in particular that come to mind for you that you are particularly interested in or that you and Pat Brown discussed at length?

HIRSCH

Well, we surely were interested in higher education, because when he came, accepted my invitation to lecture to my class we then after would go from the class to the Faculty Center and you could really see how he was proud of having contributed to the Higher Education in California. You just could feel it.

BURKE

Is that right?

HIRSCH

So we talked a lot about higher education but also about some of these other issues in which he had been so deeply involved. One, I shouldn't really tell you.

BURKE

Why don't you anyway? (laughter)

HIRSCH

But you might want to use it. He was asked -- well, he had to be asked, I suppose, to make a decision in connection with a bridge to be built from the San Diego side to -- there was an island, I forgot what it is.

BURKE

Coronado.

HIRSCH

Coronado, right. And we talked about that, and he said, look they brought to me three different or four different sketches and I decided that it's the most expensive, it's the most beautiful, that's going to be it. And now by the time he had left office, they invited him when they opened the bridge, and he showed up -- somebody, and I was not involved in it -- as a matter of fact, I was not there -- had a placard and he ended up standing in front of it to celebrate Pat Brown's last erection.

BURKE

(laughter)

HIRSCH

Anyhow.

BURKE

That's cute.

HIRSCH

I mean, I think it indicates in a certain sense that it was a very (inaudible), friendly relationship in talking about matters, and he was really generous.

BURKE

Generous in what way, would you say?

HIRSCH

I was just a faculty member, he was the former governor! Former attorney general of the state! Et cetera, et cetera. Anyhow.

BURKE

What did draw you two together, do you think?

HIRSCH

I never have thought that through. I can not answer that.

BURKE

But clearly, you just -- you hit it off in the way that friends do, I suppose.

HIRSCH

Yes, and as I say, he was very generous to me, to engage me in conversations and explorations of issues that really particularly during the days of his being in office concerned him and perhaps having a certain amount of quiet knowledge and having no stake at all in credit, wasn't a very easy time or way to talk.

BURKE

I'm sorry, you meant that he had a certain amount of acquired knowledge? Or that you did?

HIRSCH

Well, when it came to technical problems, education or even agriculture, or on some of the -- there was a period we were considering bringing, it's again an issue today, what is it called? Gas that was cooled -- there's a term for it -- into the Los Angeles area offshore in order to increase the supply of fuel. (bell) Let me see who that is. Personable.

BURKE

Are you saying that you admire him for seeking out a university professor and being willing to talk to him about...

HIRSCH

No, I admired him for what he had done for the state and his personality. I mean, he was a man who had an enormous responsibility, for eight years as governor and I think eight years attorney general of this state, and he had some tough decisions to make. For example, his son and he didn't look eye to eye on an execution of a criminal, and so on.

BURKE

Pat Brown granted a reprieve to that criminal. I can't recall his name at the moment.

HIRSCH

No, initially did not want to do that, but Jerry very heavily influenced him, yes. And first...

BURKE

Oh, Pat Brown did not want to grant the reprieve, but Jerry influenced him to do it?

HIRSCH

yes. And it was politically very damaging to him.

BURKE

To Pat Brown.

HIRSCH

yes.

BURKE

Right. Right. Right. Right. Did he regret doing that? Do you know?

HIRSCH

Not to the best of my knowledge, no. I mean, he was a principled person and again being a politician, being elected in a state that was really unpredictable, growing and at the cutting edge, there was courage, integrity.

BURKE

Now, off mike, you told me earlier about an anecdote involving Pat Brown and Clark Kerr. Can you tell me that again?

HIRSCH

Yes. Pat Brown was a person who did not have the financial means to go through Yale as Jerry did to get a law degree and all that. He had to work himself through, and yes, he ended up passing the bar and -- no he didn't. Before he passed the bar, he went to work for a blind attorney in -- I believe in San Francisco and read to him. And --

BURKE

You mean he read...

HIRSCH

The cases. I think Bernice in those days was a student at Berkeley, and they got married ultimately.

BURKE

Well, what does that say to you about Pat Brown that he would...

HIRSCH

Well, there are some people who are born with a silver spoon in their mouth, and others aren't, and he had one person in his family that had a silver spoon in his mouth. Full stop.

BURKE

(laughter) Now, wait! Well, now I'm a little bit confused.

HIRSCH

No.

BURKE

Well anyway, OK. So Pat Brown really pulled himself up by his bootstraps.

HIRSCH

Exactly, yes.

BURKE

And he worked for this blind attorney and then I believe he'd took the bar.

HIRSCH

I think he started out as city attorney, you know, in San Francisco. You're not wrong. Then he became attorney general, two terms I believe, and then he had two terms as governor.

BURKE

And when he became governor, he knew nothing about higher education.

HIRSCH

No, you see, because he really, as I say, was self-made (inaudible) but also he had the integrity -- he admired academics and he realized that he really did not have the background so he, shortly after he was elected as governor, approached Clark Kerr to ask him to help him become knowledgeable as chairman of the Board of Regents." And he took that position important -- I mean seriously. And by the way, I think under him, the state had perhaps the best Board of Regents, at least that I'm aware of, and I've seen boards since 1946. Yes, he had a good balance between Democrats and Republicans and he had the same attitude towards the California Supreme Court. He had appointed some outstanding people in terms of making contributions to law, for example, Mosk, an intellectual legal giant.

BURKE

Stanley Mosk?

HIRSCH

yes. (inaudible) most likely. I mean, there are two or three rulings that as important as perhaps any we had in that period in any state or even on the federal level. So we owe him a lot.

BURKE

And so, Clark Kerr schooled (inaudible) in the ways of...

HIRSCH

Oh, yes. No, look, you have to realize the relationship between the board in general and the chairman of the board, on the one hand, and the president is terribly important. David Gardner used to tell me that he was spending more than half of his time between Regents meetings on the phone with Regents.

BURKE

Instead of -- instead of running the university?

HIRSCH

Well, not instead. To do it. When he had decided what a policy issue was or what a question was that he had to go to the Regents and wanted an answer that he thought was right for the university, he would spend half of his time on the phone.

BURKE

Lobbying his position?

HIRSCH

Well, I wouldn't call that lobbying, because this is really a question of integrity, in that good Regents care for the university, but they have too many other things in terms of their business, in terms of their law firm, and so on. So David did it and he -- I think he and I often discussed that. He had only one instance where his position that he had advocated over the phone and so on with the regents, the vote went against him.

BURKE

Hmm, OK. But getting back to Pat Brown, why do you say that Regents under his term -- well, two terms as governor -- why was the board so great?

HIRSCH

Well, remember that these are very long-term positions to be a Regent, so he couldn't appoint all of them. Some had been appointed by Warren, quite good apparently, but those appointments that he made, particularly since he looked for quality and creativeness, and tried to minimize the politics, we owe him again a lot. If he would only have appointed Mosk, he would've been a great governor.

BURKE

What do you consider Pat Brown's greatest accomplishments apart from the higher education things that we just discussed?

HIRSCH

Well, the waterworks. I mean, he in a certain sense had a vision. What was the infrastructure? By infrastructure, I do not mean only the physical infrastructure, but also intellectual infrastructure. How do you create and contribute to the state moving ahead? And he had the ability to identify these things, convert them into programs, and more or less sell them. Let me also remind you, he had some difficult days. He had a very, very strong Speaker of the Assembly, Jess Unruh.

BURKE

Oh, OK.

HIRSCH

And they were not always looking eye-to-eye, to put it mildly.

BURKE

They had some very famous disputes, then.

HIRSCH

Well, they were rivals. Look, Unruh was a very, very bright man, also self-made.

BURKE

Now, you mentioned that one of the things you admired about Pat Brown was his social conscience, and you brought that up -- I think you brought that term up in your discussions before. You also brought up the issue of justice, and I think you brought it up in the context of social justice, but could you talk a little bit about what it means to you to have a social conscience or to believe in social justice?

HIRSCH

Well, the social conscience is the beginning, and social justice is the implementation. He really felt very strongly about fairness, he felt about that this was a growing state and he realized to the extent that it happened. But the diversity that would occur in this state, he did not only see it happen, but also to create incentives to solve friction that could come about.

BURKE

Would you say that you also have a social conscience?

HIRSCH

I would hope so!

BURKE

(laughter) What does that mean to you?

HIRSCH

Well, I'll give you an example as a teacher. I was early asked -- involved in how the state would provide funds to underprivileged students, and there are two ways to do that, or at least two. One is to provide relatively low -- what the state really deserves credit for -- fees and tuition for everybody. And the other one is to have high fees and provide a lot of scholarships. I became convinced that if you really use the second route, you inadvertently will handicap many, many poor students and many of them -- in those days, not that many -- would be immigrants, they would neither have the courage nor the knowledge to apply for scholarships. That's social conscience for me, in terms of social justice, to see that indeed if you are concerned about bringing in people who did not have the privilege, for whatever reason, to be as eligible, and yet you want them to participate in the opportunities that the state offers and provide opportunities, that you're looking for means that indeed you carry this one out. The second alternative would not -- it would've gotten very, very few youngsters who basically were promising, who would have the courage and the ability to fill out the forms.

BURKE

Did you come to that belief over time, or would you say that that's a belief that you have always held? Not necessarily on this issue of scholarships, but sort of the broader idea?

HIRSCH

No, that's a very narrow example that I gave you. No, I think I'm basically a person, partly -- and I hope you have seen that. I feel that I was a beneficiary and now should help the next generation.

BURKE

And when you say you're a beneficiary, you're referring mostly to...

HIRSCH

Well, (inaudible), we arrived in this country, my father in law gave us $5,000 so we could marry. That was what we had. And we were able to -- I would hope that this is not incorrect -- we feel that we had become part of society and attempted to make a contribution.

BURKE

Right.

HIRSCH

And because of the generosity by which we were treated.

BURKE

Right. You meant-- OK, this very narrow example that you mentioned...

HIRSCH

Oh, yes, but in a certain sense it was a tangible one. It's not something that people can disagree with. This is clear-cut.

BURKE

Wait, how do you mean it's clear-cut?

HIRSCH

Empirically, you can establish and prove that if you provide a system that underprivileged kids have to apply for a scholarship, a relatively significant number of eligible ones will not apply.

BURKE

Right, right. And that's an interesting example, because as you just mentioned, that you can empirically prove.

HIRSCH

Exactly.

BURKE

Yes. I wonder if there -- but are there other examples of your social conscience or your idea of fairness that aren't subject to -- what am I trying to say -- the scientific method?

HIRSCH

Well, I don't know, but unfortunately I have been in academia a long time. (laughter) But again, in terms of my work, and the newspaper has at the moment a case like this -- when -- let me first state a fact and you can refute it. I believe it is very unfortunate that so many Americans don't have decent housing, or don't have housing. And the legislature has seen fit years ago to demand -- the term is unfortunate, but to demand decent housing for all Californians. For example, somebody comes to Orange County and wants a permit to develop a new subdivision. In order to get that permit, let's say that it's for a thousand lots or a condominium Under the Inclusionary Zoning, a certain percent, let's say 10 percent have to be set aside for low-income groups. That basically means that those who are moving into the development, the new development and can afford it, are subsidizing a group of people who would otherwise not have housing. I'm very much in favor of that. On balance, you might say well, it's a difficult question. Why should those who are well off pay for them, or whatever it is; but the fact of the matter is, that if you can afford this housing, why shouldn't you, on the basis of need, subsidize the housing of a certain percent of these less fortunate people.

1.6. Session 6 ( December 18, 2006)

BURKE

This is Anne Burke and I am here with Dr. Hirsch and it's December 18, 2006. During our last section we ran out of space on the recorder, so we're going to pick up where the machine cut us off. We were talking about Dr. Hirsch's sense of social justice and he was giving a couple of examples and one of those was an example involving college students, university students and maybe I'll just ask Dr. Hirsch to repeat briefly what he said about that.

HIRSCH

Well, I look at social justice not only as important in terms of the quality of a society, but also its ability to provide stability and satisfaction among members of society. And I use two examples. They're very minor, but these in a certain sense can use hard facts. If we want to help a university to be able to attract and accommodate students, including students who are disadvantaged either because of immigration status or because of family background or income, two major options do that: One, is to provide relatively low tuition across the board, and everybody is eligible to the same conditions, and the other one is that you have high tuition but at the same time allow students to apply for scholarships. The second way is really not producing the same kind of opportunities and social justice as the first, because immigrants and youngsters coming from poor families often do not have the ability, the incentive, the knowledge, and the courage to apply for a scholarship. Moreover, this thing of providing scholarships makes it so easy to really favor groups that are low in need. For example, it could very well be that relationships between the family and the university will produce scholarships to middle-income and high-income people. So I would say that you are producing more social justice by being able to go ahead and give everybody the same opportunity to have access and leave a "tax" on higher income groups. In relation to housing, the issue is to what extent , for example, are you sincere about providing low-income groups with housing. Let's agree on the fact that when politicians promise to build new low-cost housing, either they don't know what they're talking about or they don't mean it. There's no way of getting to build low-cost new housing. On the other hand --

BURKE

What -- you say that because...

HIRSCH

There's no way to do it! It's too costly. There's no way to do it. But if you use the process by having people move from say middle-class housing after they've made money, to upper-class housing, to new housing, then you open up housing for lower income groups to move into middle-income group housing, and further down even from people who don't have any housing there will be opening up housing from those who are moving up. So now, why is that important? In my view to society, particularly in an age where you have a lot of unrest, social unrest -- in some countries even terrorism -- I think certain groups feel discriminated against. Groups who have six or eight people in two or three rooms because they cannot afford more, and on television or otherwise they see how the upper class lives. That doesn't lead to social stability. So, there are not only values that you want to advance for social justice, but also a greater stability and cohesiveness of a community.

BURKE

And you mentioned something last time about immigration status. How does immigration status fit into that?

HIRSCH

Well, I don't know that I mentioned status, but to the extent that you're illegal, you live under great uncertainty. You don't know when your illegal status will be challenged. On the other hand, I believe that every country has the right, and in many respects even the responsibility toward its own people, to protect its borders.

BURKE

yes, I think the point you were making was that you are very hard-nosed on the subject of illegal immigration and believe that people should come in legally. However, once they are here, they're entitled to decent housing?

HIRSCH

Well, no. I didn't say that, and I don't have a view on that. As a matter of fact, that really depends to some extent even on the constitutional interpretation as to whether illegals are eligible to the same free education that legals are. Or are illegals eligible to the same kind of health services (in county hospitals) free of charge as legals are? Now, these are really difficult issues and here you have to go by U.S. Supreme Court decisions. Although, the judgement of persons can differ.

BURKE

OK. So you talked about your philosophy of social justice by using these examples. Could you state it in broader terms, your definition of social justice, or your view of social justice?

HIRSCH

In the broad sense you treat everybody in a just manner. But that doesn't get you very far, because it really means that you have to deal with almost an unlimited number of situations where this shows up. We talked about housing, we talked about education, you talked about -- you can really look at this problem in terms of equality and egalitarianism. And yet at the same time, equality should not become an impediment of people to exert themselves in trying to excel.

BURKE

Give me an example of what you're thinking.

HIRSCH

Well, the best example that I come up with is between Western Europe and the United States. In the post WWII period, much of Western Europe is deeply concerned with egalitarianism and therefore equality in terms of services and treatments and provision of goods and so on, because as human beings they should be able to get at least a minimum of goods and services and opportunities. Yet that has led to almost a stifling of efforts to be productive, resulting in that Germany in the post-war period can't get away from about a ten percent unemployment, and in France the same, might be 11 percent. So that again, the complexity of life, and it's easy to talk about one position without considering that, to quote Harry Truman, economists talk about on the one hand and on the other hand. But it's really true, and that's what makes it so tough for judges to consider all the issues, and particularly the Supreme Court in terms of constitutional provisions. But that's what makes for the Great Society, on the one hand. On the other hand, I think that the Europeans might have gotten themselves into a bind which they're unable to get out of. I remember the only time that I went to Germany (since I left it in 1936) was on the invitation a small conference where the President of the Bundesbank (the counterpart to the chairman of the Federal Reserve Board) and I gave papers. On that night I was taken to a country club and I was sitting between two heads of state, in our case they were governors, one just was defeated and the other one was still in office. I had the courage to ask what their particular program would be to reduce unemployment. And I said, because this was a period in which I thought that the unemployment was a great challenge, "Why couldn't you take steps to reduce unemployment?" which basically meant impose on labor, and impose also on industry. By labor in this case I mean to extend the ever-shorter work-week. After thinking for half a minute they said "that would be political suicide."

BURKE

How much of your view of social justice is informed by your own experience in Germany and in this country, when you attended university?

HIRSCH

Well, I really don't know how to answer that except to say that, yes, this opposite of Germany in the 30's and particularly what I found when I got in '36 to the United States was so refreshing. Here was a country that was just bubbling with enthusiasm and innovation and ability to move forward and raise the standard of living, and very tolerant at least in my view. Perhaps I was more impressed in some cases than was due because of my experience. But it had a tremendous impact on me, and it's -- I think it shaped to some extent my values. But I also came from a home where we had respect for everybody and wanted to see therefore social justice (inaudible).

BURKE

But that was something your parents instilled.

HIRSCH

Right, yes.

BURKE

We're going to jump to another topic, and that is your interest in art. I'm sitting in your living room and I'm surrounded by very nice pieces of art, sketches and oil paintings and other pieces. Could you tell us a little bit about how you developed an interest in art?

HIRSCH

Well, as with so many things, they are a mixture of coincidence and at the same time of purposefulness. In 1953, I joined the Washington University in St. Louis and I felt that if I only would devote my energy and my grey cells to my professional needs, I would miss a lot. To go even further, as the years progressed, I felt you need a hobby to retain your sanity. And I had a student in 1953, who was a night school student working for a Masters degree, who was a manufacturer of ladies' handbags, high quality, and he would go once or twice a year to Europe and as a matter of fact made friends with a very great Italian artist and bought perhaps more paintings of this artist than anybody else. Anyhow...

BURKE

Do you remember the name of the Italian artist?

HIRSCH

Yes. Morandi. M-o-r-a-n-d-i. His sisters lived I think in Florence. Anyhow, because of him I started to become interested; and he helped me buy a few works on paper in the next ten years. I was mainly interested in what you might call modern art, truly not contemporary art and truly not classical art. And then I came to UCLA. I found this to be a very active university in terms of art, and not only did I volunteer to help found the Friends of the Graphic Arts of UCLA and just to mention that UCLA in those days had the best graphic arts collection in those days west of the Mississippi. It had a great curator by the name of Maurice Bloch, B-l-o-c-h. And he again was very, very nice to me and worked hard in persuading me that I was all over the map when it came to art. So I decided to focus a bit. And so starting in about the, oh, middle 1960's, I began focusing on Italian and Dutch 18 and 17th century art; and this is what really has preoccupied me, and just for example among the Dutch is the Van Dyck iconography.

BURKE

Is that Van Dyck?

HIRSCH

Oh, yes, I will show you three hanging and three that just came back from the Getty Museum.

BURKE

The Getty Center?

HIRSCH

yes, mm-hmm.

BURKE

What pieces were those and what was the exhibit?

HIRSCH

Well, I can show them to you. Antonio Van Dyck is particularly known among other things in relation to paintings, but also the Van Dyck iconography. It's about 188 prints, and I have virtually all. In some instances, even different states, early and late ones, and I'll show you one particularly set where the quality differs greatly partly because they are different states.

BURKE

Different states, you...

HIRSCH

These are graphics, mainly etchings. I had the good fortunate of having many of them exhibited in a show at the UC Berkeley Museum, and there's a catalogue in my honor. I will show you. And there's a catalogue from Holland because the exhibit was also in Holland because it was the 400th birthday of Van Dyck.

BURKE

How did you come to focus on, I think you said 17th and 18th century Dutch and Italian?

HIRSCH

And Italian.

BURKE

How did you come to develop that focus?

HIRSCH

Because I had a tutor, Maurice Bloch, and I admired great craftsmanship.

BURKE

Oh, is that right?

HIRSCH

yes.

BURKE

Did you go to him and ask him?

HIRSCH

Well, no. When I came to UCLA as a professor and also director of an institute, I met a lot of people on various occasions and that's why I helped found the Friends of the Graphic Arts and served as president. He was the director of the foundation. Initially it was a foundation, and I persuaded the late Franklin Murphy that that was really not what it should be. It should be a center and not a foundation. Anyhow.

BURKE

When was it approximately that you founded the Friends organization?

HIRSCH

Well, the group was founded most likely in the mid 1960's. And I think it's still in existence. Moving from Dutch and the whole group of great artists that I became very, very deeply interested in. On the Italian side, one example is Tiepolo, father and son. And again, I had an exhibition of Tiepolos, and I have graphics and drawings. At Berkeley, it was an exhibit at the museum of Tiepolos. And over the years, various museums all the way from Los Angeles County Museum and so on, came to me and I loaned them some pieces for an exhibit. But also in 1991 I joined the board of trustees of the Berkeley Museum. I had provided as gifts a number of art pieces.

BURKE

So over the years, you collected a great deal of art.

HIRSCH

Yes, I always said to somebody who invited me to give a professional talk, I have a request for me to consider an invitation, I will have one day during which I can go to a great museum in your community and to a gallery. yes, I was very much interested in seeing things, spent a lot of time in London museums and in Cambridge and so on. But I think it makes life fuller and at the same time gets you off only looking at your profession.

BURKE

What was the -- what was your first... (phone rings) We had a brief interruption. Professor Hirsch was talking about the first piece of art that he purchased. When was that?

HIRSCH

It must have been in the middle 1950's in St. Louis and it's hanging in my dining room.

BURKE

Could you describe the painting?

HIRSCH

It's really contemporary in a sense, yes. It resembles a Picasso painting of women on steps. Anyhow, here you have four or five old men or women who are dancing, or whatever it is. And the colors I think are very attractive.

BURKE

It's very bright.

HIRSCH

Well, it's colorful. Right, yes.

BURKE

And who is the artist?

HIRSCH

I would have to check on that. I don't remember the time. I met S. Boccia once. I don't remember. I mean, it's contemporary. It's most likely painted in the 40's or 50's.

BURKE

OK, OK. Now, how many total pieces do you have in your collection. Do you know?

HIRSCH

No. Mainly because I have made it a policy for the last 30 or 40 years to donate art and if I am particularly enamored with an institution like Berkeley, I gave them perhaps, oh, 30, 40 pieces by one artist in one year, for example, by Adriaen van Ostade who was a Dutch artist, but I still have about 30 or 40 left by him. And I also had some bad luck. In an auction, I bought a painting that was supposed to be an original but it needed cleaning so I went to the County Art Museum. They recommended a cleaner and I gave it to him and he called me after two weeks and he says, "I messed it up." (laughter) And he was nice, he says, "I give you what you paid for it, but it's gone."

BURKE

Oh, really?

HIRSCH

yes.

BURKE

What artist, do you recall?

HIRSCH

No, I don't recall exactly what it was, who it was, but I have a very nice oil by van Ostade that I also bought in a Sotheby auction, and then you see over here this gentleman standing here. It's not Van Dyck, but it is a contemporary oil, this one here.

BURKE

Describe that painting very briefly for us?

HIRSCH

Well, it's a portrait of -- a typical portrait of a Dutchman of that period, namely of the 17th century most likely, and it just caught my fancy.

BURKE

And it's sitting on a cabinet in the corners.

HIRSCH

yes.

BURKE

Do you know that artist?

HIRSCH

No, I don't think I can -- as a matter of fact, what I have done in two cases, and it's very important to do that actually. There are perhaps one or two persons in the world who are specialists in certain artists are concerned; and in one or two cases I really went through the trouble of identifying all of the specialists and sent them color photographs, and in one instance, and I will show you the drawing, one of the nicest drawings that I have, there's a man in the United States who was invited by the Getty to come and spend some time there and I invited him to the house and I said "take a look, is this really a genuine drawing of hands," and I will tell you in a minute by whom. And he said yes, there's no doubt in my mind that it is by Guido Reni. And that's quite reassuring. On the other hand, I have this painting sent to a number, including people in Europe, and they all said, well, it could be, by Adriaen Van Ostade or somebody of his school.

BURKE

Oh, is that right?

HIRSCH

But I didn't buy it because it was an X, Y, and Z. I just liked it. It fits quite nicely in the Van Dyck collection that I have.

BURKE

And who was the artist you alluded to just a moment ago?

HIRSCH

I will have to look that one up. Oh, Guido Reni is 1575 to 1642. And it's a study of hands, and again, we had at the County Museum here some ten years ago a beautiful exhibit of oils by Guido Reni's and I went and spent at least two or three hours in looking at these different paintings, looking for the hands that I had! (laughter) Now, you see this is what I say is relaxing, getting out of the rut that one gets in. It's not rut, but I mean day and night we focus on one profession. It deserves to be interrupted a little bit and art is to me a great recreation.

BURKE

And you mentioned that you in the past few years, you've been donating pieces to various art institutions. What other museums?

HIRSCH

Just to -- not to be facetious, but last week, must have been Friday, at quarter to seven a.m. a person from UCLA had come to pick up a drawing I had promised. (laughter) Right. It was a drawing by a local artist who passed away, I think a great artist, Joyce Treiman. We have a piece of sculpture of hers and she had done two portraits of me in oil. Anyhow, she I think --

BURKE

Excuse me, let me interrupt you there. I think I saw her name on an oil painting that (inaudible).

HIRSCH

Oh, yes, the one you see next to the first one.

BURKE

Right, and that's here?

HIRSCH

That's Joyce Treiman here, yes, and they're two portraits she had done.

BURKE

But the subject of the painting that she -- the subject of the painting is you.

HIRSCH

This is not me.

BURKE

Oh, in the dining room it's not.

HIRSCH

No, it's not.

BURKE

Oh, OK.

HIRSCH

In the room where we picked up the Bruegel, there are two portraits that she did of me.

BURKE

Oh, OK.

HIRSCH

I think she was a tremendous craftsman. She had an ability to bring out a person's personality by looking at his head. This is the one that I picked -- five -- heads of persons in a courtroom.

BURKE

Oh, really?

HIRSCH

yes, and anyhow, no, I'm delighted to make them available either on a loan basis or in other cases too as gifts.

BURKE

So somebody from the Grunwald Center came last week to pick up a Joyce Treiman sketch.

HIRSCH

yes, a -- drawings. Yes.

BURKE

OK. Did you commission the portraits that she did of you?

HIRSCH

No.

BURKE

She did them on her own.

HIRSCH

yes. Well, we were friends.

BURKE

Oh, I see.

HIRSCH

yes.

BURKE

And as you mentioned earlier, you have quite a relationship with the Grunwald Center.

HIRSCH

Well, not a relationship, but when Maurice Bloch was the director, I helped found the Friends of the Graphic Arts, and then served as first the vice president and then as president. I think I was the second president. But not, otherwise. I provide them with art, that's about it, whereas Berkeley, yes, I spent many many years as a trustee.

BURKE

The Berkeley University art museum at Berkeley.

HIRSCH

Of the art museum, right.

BURKE

And was that when you were -- after you came to UCLA and you became a trustee there?

HIRSCH

Oh, yes. As a matter of fact, we can look it up, but I think I terminated it about seven years ago because I no longer felt that I was able to get into Berkeley every month to attend the meeting, the board meeting. And one has to be honest with an organization. One has to either do one's job or get the hell out.

BURKE

Did you mention maybe a few other museums or art centers to which you have donated pieces?

HIRSCH

Well, I have donated quite a bit to LACMA over the years. But again, it really very much depends on the personal relation -- personal relationship. The curator of drawings, I got to know her, she passed away at the best of our relationship, and Jim Cuno came who is now the director of the Art Institute of Chicago, and I mean, that's the same museum that a former director is joining the Getty Museum as president of the Getty Trust. I think Bose is his name. It depends on personal relationships.

BURKE

Now, in your collection is something called the Van Dyck Iconography. What is that?

HIRSCH

Well, it's a totality of about 188 graphics. The first 18 are by Van Dyck himself, and the others are by people who had been, or most of them had been, closely associated with them. An example is Lucas Vorsterman, very closely associated. I think he worked in his studio. Then let's see, some other ones. Yes, Peter de Jode and Paul Pontius was very important, and S.A. Bolswert. So I don't know exactly how it started out but it was created and there are two or three different -- I don't know what the best term is -- publishers who put together the totality of these 188 of different prints.

BURKE

You mean totality, of the 188?

HIRSCH

Of these 188, and actually these are known as being the iconography of X, Y, and Z, and one was -- and at this moment the name escapes me, but I got a letter from 19 years ago from a lady who had the name of one of those who put this all together and she inquired of me -- she had heard that I had the entire collection[*].

BURKE

And by one of these efforts, you mean --

HIRSCH

Of organizing the Van Dyck Iconography, and they came out under different names. Later on if you have time, I will pull out some books that you can see. Whole books are devoted to the iconography. There are pictures and so on.

BURKE

So some of the pieces are graphic reproductions, is that right?

HIRSCH

No, they're not reproductions. They're different states. You see, artists -- very often great artists either etch or use another form of art and then they're dissatisfied, and make changes on the plate and that's state two. And in the iconography, some of them go up to 10 states.

BURKE

Oh, really?

HIRSCH

yes. For example, that -- that Bruegel that I showed you, one of them is the first or second state, and the other one is about tenth state.

BURKE

Oh, interesting. So the pieces are all portraits, and they're of prominent citizens of the day?

HIRSCH

Yes, and as I mentioned to you, the first, 50, are men, and only in 51 or 52 a woman appears.

BURKE

Finally!

HIRSCH

Finally. (laughter)

BURKE

OK, and for example, there are two Bruegels.

HIRSCH

And son.

BURKE

And portraits of Bruegel's father.

HIRSCH

And son.

BURKE

And son.

HIRSCH

yes, separate, yes.

BURKE

Johannes Bruegel and.

HIRSCH

Johannes.

BURKE

Johannes Bruegel and Petrus.

HIRSCH

Pieter.

BURKE

Petrus Bruegel, thank you. Now, talk a little bit about the difference between these two pieces.

HIRSCH

Oh, well first of all, they were different people, but the prints are of distinctly different quality. I mean, the one of Pieter Bruegel is a very fine impression. I think it's a first or second state, and as a matter of fact we have over here etched into it, GH. That is the identification of which of these three or four parties who put them together. This one over here is -- does not have that, but this is Johannus and it's nice, but in terms of quality, yes, it's a late state but not an early state, and you can readily see, if you use the very same plate that you use in order to produce the etchings, it becomes vaguer and vaguer the more you use it, and that partly is a quality issue; but the other one is that if you have the first state versus the tenth state, yes, the artist reworked it quite a bit, but the part that was not reworked was really used up quite a bit.

BURKE

How did you come to collect the iconography?

HIRSCH

Well, first of all, I think there was near the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, there was a very well-established gallery. He introduced me to it, and I bought first time around, I don't know, about 10, 15 of them, and then each time that I -- I mean, this was not that I bought in totality. I bought them wherever I could find them, and then I had to establish the relationship with galleries who knew that I was collecting Van Dyck and they would inform me and so that's different from one other artist that I bought, but then I bought the whole set, and if I -- if you give me a minute, I might be able to find what that was, and I bought it from a great gallery in London. Let me see. Over here. That's (inaudible).. That's the Tiepolos. Drawings. Well, I will come back and I will tell you. In one instance, I was really able to get from Sotheby's the equivalent of, oh, I think an entire series of 30 by one artist, the whole in that series, and they had come from one of the best collections in England. But it's not that interesting to buy a whole lot. It's much more interesting to be excited when you find another item to be complete.

BURKE

(laughter) So you acquired the iconography over a period of time and as I understand it, it is almost complete but not quite. How many pieces short is it?

HIRSCH

You mean in terms of the iconography?

BURKE

yes.

HIRSCH

Oh, I think we might be short by two or five or whatever it is, but not the important ones. I think there were 188, so basically just a complete set.

BURKE

And has this been exhibited as a complete set? Or is it nearly a complete set?

HIRSCH

It has been exhibited. Well, at Berkeley, I think we had 100 of them or something.

BURKE

At the UC Berkeley Art Museum?

HIRSCH

Yes.

BURKE

And did it travel to Antwerp?

HIRSCH

Some of them went to Antwerp, but not all of them (apparently because they had locally some prints) and shipped them all the way from here to Holland.

BURKE

Oh, OK, OK. You also have a Picasso. Could you talk a little bit about that?

HIRSCH

Well, yes. Actually, this friend who introduced me to art in St. Louis, bought me a Pi-- Picasso and but that -- I really haven't been collecting much by him. I have Toulouse-Lautrec and so on from the early days of my collection.

BURKE

OK. You also have a Matisse, is that right?

HIRSCH

Two. And they're wonderful, because these -- one is the head of a man, one is the head of a woman, and you couldn't really find better examples of what is male and what is female. Matisse used very, very few lines to produce a head and an expression.

BURKE

Mention just a couple of other -- perhaps a couple of other of your favorite pieces.

HIRSCH

Well, there are some hanging -- let me see. Romney, there's a nice drawing by Romney, and you are looking at a little drawing by Maximillian Luce.I have some nice Jan Lievens, one of which was exhibited at the county museum here in Los Angeles. Right, and there are two nice Goyas, we see on the second lower tier.

BURKE

Two Goyas?

HIRSCH

yes, these are Goyas. Francisco Goya.

BURKE

What are the names of those works, do you know that?

HIRSCH

OK, hold on. I have to look this one up. The (inaudible) to the right of it is a good artist by the name of DeWit, Jacobo DeWit. Let's see. One is called -- that's all in Spanish and I don't speak spanish.

BURKE

I could give it a try. Where is it?

HIRSCH

Here it is, Goya, it says here (inaudible) pieces.

BURKE

Oh, OK. One is "Por Que Fue Sensible." Why it was sensitive? Maybe. "Que Querrero(?)" is the other one. I think that means the traitor(?).

HIRSCH

One is a woman in disgrace.

BURKE

OK, OK. "Subir y Bajar," going up and going down, which looks to be the one on the wall there, is that right? The one in the upper right-hand corner?

HIRSCH

No, only in the lower two.

BURKE

Oh, I see. OK, OK. Thank you. Now, when you donate a piece to a --

HIRSCH

A museum.

BURKE

A museum or institution, does the plaque say that it's a gift from Werner Hirsch?

HIRSCH

No, usually no, I don't want that. For example, the three that came back from the Getty Exhibit, I made sure that my name doesn't appear.

BURKE

Why not?

HIRSCH

Well.

BURKE

Is it because, if you don't mind my asking, because of security concerns?

HIRSCH

Not necessarily, but no, could be misinterpreted by somebody as showmanship.

BURKE

As showmanship? So you donate it not for self-aggrandizement. Because you want to share these works with the public?

HIRSCH

Right, yes. I like, particularly universities I'm interested in, because to my mind, universities are facing a great challenge, the American universities in particular, because they have overemphasized, in my limited personal view, the contemporary stuff rather than having a broad menu. That was why I was so pleased to be invited to serve on the board of trustees at Berkeley, where I was able to help the director to persuade the board to balance its collection and exhibitions... (break in tape)

BURKE

Professor Hirsch, you have a drawing on your lap. Talk a little bit about that.

HIRSCH

Well, it's an indication of the fun. One Saturday morning, after, I had spent two or three days at Harvard and I wanted to stay over and go to the museum. So on Saturday I did. There had been again a flood in Venice and they were trying to raise money. They had some nice pieces of art that they were selling. So I bought a drawing and it is here. It's a drawing. It has a signature and everything by Pier Leone Ghezzi, G-h-e-z-z-i. It's pen and ink and it as a matter of fact reminded me a little bit of Rembrandt's work. I took it home, I hung it up and started, in off hours, to try to find other pieces of work by this man who I knew as having been known for heads and caricatures, but are there no other landscapes? Well, I couldn't find any landscapes. Getty has a program where they bring in scholars on a fellowship basis, and I'd gotten to know a person, respected her. She came to the house and I said, you know about this artist over here. I had already gone to London, to the British Museum, and they had pulled out all the drawings that they had. No, no landscape. Well, she said, "Hey, what you might want to do is go to the Burlington Magazine, June 1960, and you will find something similar." So indeed, I went to the Burlington Magazine and there was one! So these are perhaps the only two landscapes by this artist. Now, that's real fun to do something like that, and I think it's a nice drawing and in that sense it has a rather personal history.

BURKE

That's interesting. Now, is it terribly indiscreet to ask an art collector the value of his collection?

HIRSCH

I have no idea.

BURKE

Is that right?

HIRSCH

Well, most of it is in safe deposit boxes in a bank.

BURKE

Most of the pieces.

HIRSCH

Oh, yes, most of the -- yes, particularly the -- Italian and the Dutch, yes.

BURKE

Because there must be hundreds in your collection.

HIRSCH

Oh, the size of the collection? Oh, yes, but they differ greatly. Some are -- I shouldn't brag, but I was able to buy 30 years ago a beautiful small sculpture of a head.

BURKE

Oh, is that...

1.7. Session 7 ( January 2, 2007)

BURKE

This is Anne Burke, and this is January 2, 2007. And I'm here with Professor Hirsch, and we're continuing our discussion for the UCLA Oral History Program. We had some technical difficulties during the last session, and we were discussing the size of Professor Hirsch's art collection. And I'll let him talk a little bit about that; he mentioned that it's so large that some of the pieces are stored in a bank security vault, is that right?

HIRSCH

In the bank.

BURKE

In the bank. So there are thousands -- you would say there are thousands of pieces in your --

HIRSCH

Oh, no. No.

BURKE

Hundreds.

HIRSCH

As a matter of fact, permit me to say something; that is -- the size, the number of items are totally irrelevant in a collection. It's a question of the quality and the importance of the artist. And sometimes, you get into a situation where it is almost impossible to control the size. For example, when I got interested in the Van Dyck Iconography, I remember distinctly, I bought about ten of these at a very fine gallery near the National -- the Metropolitan Museum in New York. I had no idea that there were 188 in that Iconography. So in that instance, you really are stuck. No, I don't know that -- it's not a large one. But I think for me it has a redeeming value. Particularly since it focuses on the 17th and 18th century, in Italy and in Holland; so that it is somewhat specialized. Not to the exclusion of the School of Paris where I started initially, before I had the good fortune of a knowledgeable friend to guide me and say, "That's enough of being all over the map. Concentrate a bit." That was Maurice Bloch, who was the head of the Grunwald Center at UCLA.

BURKE

OK. Recently, I think you donated a piece to the Grunwald Center, and in fact you've been donating pieces to various --

HIRSCH

Oh, I must have given hundreds of pieces away.

BURKE

Do you enjoy acquiring a piece of art or giving it away more? Which one is more satisfying to you?

HIRSCH

Well, these are totally different issues. Acquiring is, in many respects, an enormous adventure, because you see something that you have been searching for for years, and you finally find it. Giving away, you have to discipline yourself. Yes, you want to assist museums and so on, but pick the right stuff for the right museum, and at the same time, do not give away those things that are important to your collection.

BURKE

You mentioned that giving away art is not as easy as it sounds.

HIRSCH

Well, if you want to do it on a large scale, it's not that easy. Because, I mean, if you would want to help a museum or university, particularly a university, to establish a particular recognition in the long run for that university in a certain area, so that scholars, art scholars and so on, from various places in and outside the university, come to work there and benefit from it. It's very hard to find an arrangement, even if you are willing to step to the plate, --

BURKE

Are you speaking from personal experience here?

HIRSCH

yes.

BURKE

Tell me about that.

HIRSCH

No, I cannot.

BURKE

OK.

HIRSCH

It's mainly because the university -- speaking about universities -- and my interest really was to give to a university museum the art, particularly the Italian and the Dutch, because I thought, here was a real opportunity for establishing a center of sorts that really would attract scholars and graduate students and so on. But universities, by and large, have somewhat unique arrangements with their museums. The university, in very few instances, provides the director of the museum, with a regular university appointment at a department. And basically -- so there's not as much control and influence. I had one or two occasions where I was all set to make a -- not only to provide the art, but even step to the plate -- you can interpret that any which way you want to -- and the President or the Chancellor was very keen, and he was not able to persuade the director of the museum to do cooperate.

BURKE

Now, what museum and what --

HIRSCH

No, I will not give you names on that. But they're in the United States.

BURKE

OK. And you were interested in establishing a center for 17th and 18th century Dutch and Italian art, main works on paper --

HIRSCH

yes, by providing the art. and also some direct funding, so that they could provide the kind of support from a knowledgeable person in the field.

BURKE

And your interest was specifically in a center for 17th and 18th century Dutch and Italian --

HIRSCH

That's where most of my interesting art is in. And -- anyhow, you asked me, is it easy? No, it is not.

BURKE

Have you given up hope of --

HIRSCH

Well, I wouldn't -- I never give up hope. But I think it's going to be very hard to do, unless I really take a lot of time and go outside California and travel. At least here in California, I have working relationships with many of the institutions.

BURKE

I want to see if we can move to a different topic, and discuss your academic career during the late 1960s, and the period leading up to your sabbatical. What were you doing at that time?

HIRSCH

Well, in -- I had returned to California in 1963, to UCLA --

BURKE

OK, OK --

HIRSCH

I joined the Department of Economics at UCLA, and at the same time, assumed the Directorship of the Institute of Government and Public Affairs just established by the Regents. So my work was cut out, in terms of -- there was a certain intent by the Regents, as to what the Institute should cover. And I was -- I thought I was very fortunate, in that I brought in people of great distinction, from other universities, from the federal government in Washington, for a year or so, and also brought in colleagues in different departments at UCLA, and we made a major move. I arranged with a publisher to publish all our works; most likely 20 - 25 books were published in the ten years and so forth. But I went on sabbatical in '72, initially to Harvard and MIT, and then on to Cambridge, England. And I used that period, really, to ask myself -- are there other things that I might want to do and enjoy, and perhaps make a contribution? So when I got back, I decided that the area to move in was a relatively young developing field called Law and Economics. It was concerned with the question of how economics can contribute to legal matters.

BURKE

yes, let me interrupt you here, and ask you how you got -- what was it that made you think about the field of law?

HIRSCH

Well, there's

BURKE

Did something happen during this sabbatical, or did it have something to do with --

HIRSCH

Well, one was that at Harvard, I had an office in the building that Wassily Leontief had, and that was adjacent to the law school; I had already some friends in the law school, spent quite a bit of time in the law school, and --

BURKE

And the name you just mentioned, I believe, was the Nobel Prize winner --

HIRSCH

Wassily Leontief. He was the Nobel Laureate in economics, a friend. And we had a common interest -- he made a great contribution in developing Inter-Industry Relations, or Input-Output Analysis. He had stimulated me to do the same for a metropolitan area, namely Saint Louis, in connection with a Ford Foundation-financed effort, to provide information prior to an election in Saint Louis, as to whether city and the county of Saint Louis should merge.

BURKE

Right. That happened many years earlier.

HIRSCH

That happened in the -- well, not many, but in the mid-'50s. Anyhow, that's how I got interested; at least explore this as one thing -- I mean, I came to Harvard with no idea of what my alternatives were, and then I realized that this was a relatively young field, where indeed, economists may be able to make a contribution to an issue that was very important -- "Law and Economics," the book, just for a minute there -- and what impressed me most was a short sentence that was attributed to the great member of the US Supreme Court -- turn it off for a minute, because I have to go and get -- (pause) Well, I had been very impressed by a statement that Justice Brandeis included in an article in 1916 in his Illinois Law Review article, called "The Living Law." And he said, "A lawyer who has not studied economics is very apt to become a public enemy." And that really sort of excited me.

BURKE

But you were an economist, not a lawyer. Is the reverse true as well, that an economist who didn't know the law was likely to become a public enemy?

HIRSCH

No, I don't think so. You see, the great difference between a practicing lawyer, either in private practice or on the bench on one hand, and an economist who is either in a university or a private enterprise, a non-profit or government enterprise, is basically -- the law doesn't tell us what the economics are. But on the other hand, when the economist makes a contribution -- namely had a powerful framework and analysis, and is willing to do both the theoretical work and test it empirically, he might be able to say something about what a court's ruling can do, namely can have a positive or negative effect on society. And the same holds for the legislature. And these two things obviously -- they were very close to me thereafter, because -- I must have testified, I don't know, a few dozen times in court, and worked very closely with legislators on the state, local, and federal level. So I was able -- to use good economic analysis and whether this and this particular legal ruling, and this and this particular law, would contribute to the welfare of society, compared to the burden that it might impose on certain groups.

BURKE

Talk -- OK, so that quote from Justice Brandeis that you just read inspired you. And you completed your sabbatical -- you started off at Harvard, and then you went to Cambridge?

HIRSCH

yes, from -- no, that was part of the sabbatical. I -- we divided our sabbatical into two parts, both -- Esther, my wife, used her sabbatical to do some work; we spent about, I think, a quarter at Harvard and at MIT on the one hand, and then the rest of the sabbatical at Cambridge, England, at Cambridge University.

BURKE

And what were your feelings about the Institute at that point?

HIRSCH

Well, I felt that, on the whole, I had done what I wanted to do. And I had a very, very good associate director. I opened up the opportunity for somebody else.

BURKE

And so you went back to UCLA --

HIRSCH

yes, full-time teaching, and almost immediately after I came back, I went to see the then-dean of the law school, we were friends.

BURKE

Who was that?

HIRSCH

That was Murray Schwartz, and I said, do you have any comments on me trying to learn law, because I don't believe you can do Law and Economics with merely being an economist, and claiming that you understand the law. The two are very different fields. Research in economics is almost the diametrically opposite of research in law. Law looks for precedent primarily. And I said, well, how about me getting into the law school? Anyhow, we were each in agreement, according to which, yes, he would make sure that I would get into all the classes that were relevant towards a law degree, by good people. And then the Dean said, "In return, I want you to promise me never to practice law." And both of us kept our word.

BURKE

(laughter) So -- and you were probably about age 50 at that time, is that right?

HIRSCH

This was in the year 1972; I was 52.

BURKE

You were 52. So what kind of experience was that, to go to law school as a 52 year old? And not only a 52 year old, but a 52 year old university professor, an esteemed university professor at that.

HIRSCH

Well, let me clarify this for you. While I benefited from being part of the schooling, I did not sit for examinations, and as I said, I wouldn't take the bar examination. It was really for me, of being able to be a student who had only limited formal requirements. And I think it helped me also as a teacher, because yes, it's not easy to compete with the youngsters who just got a bachelor's degree. So I was much more responsive in my own teaching when I taught both undergraduates and graduates.

BURKE

Did you do all the reading?

HIRSCH

Oh, yes. I read all of it. All assignments, I read. Oh, yes.

BURKE

Were you called on in class?

HIRSCH

I don't remember that I was, because it was -- again, I had the good fortune of knowing personally virtually all the people that I was assigned to as my teachers. It has always been a good relationship.

BURKE

It is interesting that you decided to pursue a completely new field, in middle age.

HIRSCH

Well, but as you know, I also started to learn and teach and publish the Modern Statistics book with MacMillan, which was way out of my work before. At Berkeley, in 1949 - 1950, I taught in two areas: economic theory, on the graduate level, and some marketing. And I published in those days mainly related to agricultural economics. No, I think it's terribly important, and I believe I mentioned to you earlier, is that even in terms of a policy issue for a policy-making institution, foundation, or government that funds research -- I think it's a great challenge, not as an applicant of research grants, to continue to be in the same area, and work at the margins. There are exceptions to it, but all too often, it turns out that you take part of this year's money in order to write your next year proposal. And I think it's -- there's a great advantage in moving into new fields. It takes courage, and particularly the courage -- because you cannot come along and say, "Look what I have done in this field; I deserve support." You have to do it on the basis of confidence in your donor, that your past work is promising and you are promising, therefore, to do good work in a new area. I personally feel that all too often, both the scholar, scientist, on the one hand, and the foundation, do not make the greatest contribution by continuing to support minor contributions in the same area, just what I call marginal contributions, as they often turn out. Now, there are exceptions. I would assume that great contributions were made by people who stuck with it. On the other hand -- I might have talked to you about it -- a friend of mine who had made a major contribution, ending up, therefore, as a Nobel Laureate -- was sitting on Easter on a bench in London watching -- in the spring, it was, actually -- watching a tennis game, and he had an idea, and that led to a really major contribution. But these are exceptions.

BURKE

And that was the Nobel Laureate whose name you mentioned earlier --

HIRSCH

That was Dennis Gabor.

BURKE

Oh, OK. OK. And so you went on to do research and teach in the area of Law and Economics.

HIRSCH

I started then to teach -- I taught both one or two or three years, the economics of state and local government because of a book that I had published before, and then Law and Economics. And it was a very exciting period, because in many respects, I did a lot more than my students did.

BURKE

But you learned a lot more.

HIRSCH

Oh, yes. And it was a relatively new field, and I had the good fortunate of meeting many, and getting to know many of the early contributors to the field of Law and Economics.

BURKE

Now, was some of your research cited by the US Supreme Court? Could you tell me a little bit about that?

HIRSCH

Well, it had to do with a leading case in relation to landlord-tenant relations. And in many respects, the issue of this was whether rent control contributes on balance to social welfare and therefore was constitutional. This was a relatively new area, and my son, who had finished law school at Berkeley just a few years earlier, and had been on the Law Review -- we worked on that together. And for many years did I actually continue to work on Landlord-Tenant Relationships, and Habitability Laws, and Just-Cause Eviction Laws, and so on.

BURKE

And -- I'm sorry, which son was that?

HIRSCH

Just-cause eviction laws --

BURKE

No, I'm sorry -- what is the name of the son who you --

HIRSCH

Oh, Joel. Joel Hirsch. My son, yes.

BURKE

Oh, OK. OK.

HIRSCH

Anyhow, so I continued to do the research, and testified quite a bit, as I said earlier.

BURKE

You -- on the subject of testifying in court, you then would have been an expert witness on lots and lots of cases, is that right?

HIRSCH

Well, ever since I became interested in Law and Economics, I concentrated really in that area, namely issues of Landlord-Tenant Relations; but the basic issue is the Takings Clause.

BURKE

OK. Were there any other interesting areas that you explored, in the area of law and economics?

HIRSCH

Yes, and that was really, you might say, in labor law. I looked at city governments, and the various kinds of areas where laws were imposed on -- you know, public employees or similar things, and try to help understand their contributions, their potential contributions, as well as the potential cost that they would impose on those who are to be served, and those who are serving the public. And I did this, so I must have worked on about four or five different subjects of cities.

BURKE

Now, during this period, were you also involved with the state of California, in looking at K-12 -- reorganization of the school system?

HIRSCH

Oh, yes. Well, one of the early theoretical and empirical studies I had made, had to do with the question of whether there are scale economies in local government services. To quote a former governor and present attorney general, "small is beautiful." I mean Jerry Brown. And it came about because of this study that I mentioned earlier, of the vote on consolidating the city and the county of Saint Louis. And I did both the theoretical and then the empirical work that basically showed that the expenditure function -- namely, the per-unit expenditure -- as how it changes as more and more people are being served is basically stable. Namely, that if you want to consolidate for the sake of reducing expenditure, the chances are very slim, if not nonexisting. Now, as a result of this kind of work that I had done, the then-chairman of an ad-hoc committee of the California Legislature, Senator John Harmer, came to me and said, "I would like you to be my consultant," because he had managed to get established by the legislature a joint committee of the two houses, on the pros and cons of large urban unified school districts. This was a major focus on the Los Angeles Unified School District. So I worked with them for about a year, and brought in half a dozen good scholars, and with the help of the chairs -- the chair and the co-chair of that committee -- by the way, Senator Harmer later on became Lieutenant Governor, and there was another member, a Democrat, on the committee, who became Lieutenant Governor under the Democrats -- they managed to get the two houses to approve the proposal that they had; and the proposal basically was that "small is beautiful;" namely that rather than having -- today, in Los Angeles, a district of more than 3/4 of a million students, and have them all under one jurisdiction -- and as you know, today, there's much going on under the leadership of the mayor of the city of the Los Angeles -- we recommended that the school district be broken up into about 10 or 12 school districts: that way, there was a much better chance of involving parents, of having a better learning experience. So that was the vote of the two houses; Senator Harmer asked me to join him to visit Governor Reagan, to talk to him about this before he had to sign it; and we had a good half-hour meeting, and we were convinced that it was a successful meeting, particularly since it's sort of consistent with his philosophy in favor of small government. About three or four weeks thereafter after our visit, we learned that he had vetoed the bill.

BURKE

Really?

HIRSCH

Mm-hmm.

BURKE

What kind of impression -- during that meeting with him -- did he betray his feelings about this --

HIRSCH

Well, he wouldn't say that he embraced us, but surely half an hour's discussion was quite positive; he showed an interest, he had his education advisor with him; and there was neither Senator Harmer's nor my feeling that he was not sympathetic.

BURKE

What happened, do you think?

HIRSCH

Well, I was told -- and I have no proof -- that organized labor was able to influence him to veto it.

BURKE

So politics --

HIRSCH

You call it by any name you want to. (laughter) Anyhow, so that was --

BURKE

Was that discouraging?

HIRSCH

No. As a matter of fact, I'm just publishing a long paper in a volume called "California's Policy Options 2007." And I selected for myself to write on the issue of reorganizing unified school districts of large cities, with special emphasis on Los Angeles, because I got again interested in what I had worked on so many years ago, and now an enormously energetic mayor is seeking greater concentration of school districts. But it was rejected by the California courts.

BURKE

Well, why wasn't it discouraging? It sounds -- the effort back in the 1970s -- it sounds like you put a lot of work into it, and as an economist, you had concluded that --

HIRSCH

I only helped. I think I told you what my philosophy is as a consultant. I'm trying to help understand the problems, trying to produce insight, and the cost and benefits of going one way or the other, and then step aside. And, yes, if the chair, in this case Senator Harmer wanted me to be there -- I went only there as somebody who could be asked questions that were somewhat technical and answer them. I didn't go there pushing a position, although by implication, I was pushing it.

BURKE

But again, why -- why weren't you discouraged?

HIRSCH

Well, I had other work to do. (laughter)

BURKE

(laughter) Do you think today that the LAUSD should be broken up?

HIRSCH

Well, as a personal view, based on my training in economics and econometrics, yes, I have serious misgivings on two issues. One is a premise that is, the group who would want to bring about the enormous concentration, take those 720,000 students and have them all in one school district, and have a leadership that can indeed move them in the direction that they can learn something -- the argument that this can be remedied and can be improved upon, is really most likely somewhat limited in its correctness. We have to realize that this school district today -- and this is not a racial comment; this is from a person who is interested in the solution -- the Unified School District of Los Angeles has some 60-odd percent of its student Latinos; there are only about 8% whites, and so on and so forth. And unfortunately -- this is again not a value judgement -- many of those Latino students do not have the same home environment that some of the white kids have. Namely -- I'm convinced that an enormous amount of learning in certain families takes place at the dining table. And many of these Latino families work very, very hard; there might be four or eight to a room, they sleep. It's not an easy environment to learn. But just to overcome these difficulties, really, by having somebody on top, who says, "I want to make the place more transparent, and bring to bear the prestige and the power and the ability to work with state governments and so on," I feel is not going to really get the results that we need. If anything, if you would have smaller school districts, just as having smaller classes, I think that is the way to go, and that's very difficult. Anyhow, I've never expressed publicly a position on that, and I don't intend to.

BURKE

What was your point of bringing up Villaraigosa's quote-unquote "failing school system"?

HIRSCH

Well, it's a total misunderstanding of facts. "the schools are failing" -- is following the statement that the dropout is enormous. But again, the dropout is to no small extent related to -- again, I emphasize that this is not a statement of a bigot -- the parents' I have children, both parents work, and they come home; they don't get help in homework. I have two grandchildren in public schools -- and I am, by the way, amazed of how much those two kids homework that they get. So there are some good schools and some bad schools. But the fact of the matter is that the dropout rate is partly a function of whether the family is stable; whether they are stable in terms of where they live, and in terms of the ability to learn, and parents having an influence and so on. So to improve the success of public education, unfortunately, to no small extent, depends on the outside world, not on the school system alone, but really on housing, on income, and opportunities, and on relationships between parents and children. And just to use this thing and say the dropout rate is 50% or 60%, and therefore this different system would stop a failing school system -- I think it's not the most helpful view, in terms of analyzing a situation and bringing to bear the kind of forces and challenges, and to meet these challenges, that are necessary to be brought to bear in order to improve the system, and thereby learning.

BURKE

Now, you mentioned learning that takes place at the dining room table. Did the Hirsch family follow that model?

HIRSCH

Well, it was not a model. The discussion with both our children, our grandchildren, yes, I hope there is no question that we don't raise, and compare notes, yes.

BURKE

I mean, when you were bringing up your kids --

HIRSCH

Oh, yes. In learning -- yes, yes, oh yes. As a matter of fact, for the longest time, we didn't have a television set.

BURKE

Oh, is that right? When did you get your first TV set?

HIRSCH

Well, the reason that we didn't have a television set was because we didn't want to fight with our children, who had all other children in the neighborhood watch television all the time; they didn't read.

BURKE

So your kids did not watch television at all when they were growing up?

HIRSCH

Well, what changed our mind after a few years was that they went to the neighbors to watch TV. (laughter) But not as much as you do now. I mean, the amount of time my grandchildren -- one grandchild -- watches television is enormous.

BURKE

Six hours a day on the average, I think I read.

HIRSCH

I don't know. But fortunately, he does other things too.

BURKE

Now, getting back to the -- your work as a consultant on K-12 reorganization, do you know what happened to your work? Is it on some dusty library shelf? Does anybody ever use it anymore? Is it cited very often? Is it still --

HIRSCH

Once we were defeated, I moved on. I really don't know. Because again, this was 1971, something like this -- I was really trying to learn law and do urban economics. And I disciplined myself working on the areas that I can concentrate. (break in audio) It relates to the issue of the application of the Takings Clause.

BURKE

OK. And this has to do with your interest in property rights.

HIRSCH

Well, yes.

BURKE

Why did you get interested in property rights?

HIRSCH

Again, it turned -- it became a very exciting and open area for investigation, and its implications were far-reaching, because they really reach into the very values of our society. I got interested, actually, I believe, by teaching. Part of my course dealt with property law. And the Takings Clause, for example, in relation to the eminent domain which was so clear for so many years, suddenly was challenged, not overtly, but indirectly. Property rights and eminent domain subscribed, as I saw it, to the notion that the right to exercise the power of eminent domain by government depends on its ability to show a public purpose. For example, for the longest time in this country, it was clear that if a city was growing and needed to build a new fire station, there was no doubt about it, that the power of eminent domain should be exercised, because it was for a public purpose, to provide protection against fires. In a case that related to the slums of downtown --

BURKE

Washington, DC?

HIRSCH

Washington, DC, the Supreme Court ruled that it was enough that you could show a public interest.

BURKE

Benefit?

HIRSCH

Let me be sure that I get the right term. Public -- (break in audio).

BURKE

Just say public interest again.

HIRSCH

Public interest.

BURKE

Public interest, OK.

HIRSCH

yes. Because the courts said that this area is slum, and there it is a public interest to getting it rejuvenated. That went as far as that they permitted the government to get the power of eminent domain and hand it over to a private developer; it really was relatively far. But that at least made some sense, because here there was some socially desirable result could come about. There was no other way. But the next thing was that in Michigan, when one of the large car-makers threatened to leave Michigan and move its assembly line somewhere else, unless it would be given a piece of land that they had selected. There was a public interest to retain employment opportunity, and the court said, "yes." And a little closer to home, when the Los Angeles football team left Los Angeles and went to Oakland, and in order to attract them, the city had to build a new stadium. The argument for condemning land for the sake of having a football team in Oakland was that bringing the football team, was for recreational purpose's sake; it was a public purpose. Now, you can see how far we went here over the years, and that interested me. And then the most recent ruling where the Supreme Court did something which is unbelievable, because basically, it says, if you have a community -- and it might be 40 - 50 years old, and you have people who have been living there for 40 - 50 years, and have nice houses, and -- it's a community. Well, you should give the city the right to condemn it, because it doesn't bring as much tax, property tax, as would be coming into the city if we have from a different use -- namely, either a condominium, or whatever it is. Now, to me, this is a very important issue. Not that I argue in any way that there's a clear-cut line; it's a very difficult area to say when is public use and public interest sufficiently similar. But in this one, I find it very interesting; I would like to work on it.

BURKE

Well, it sounded as if you were saying that you found that recent -- was that a Supreme Court case?

HIRSCH

yes.

BURKE

It sounded as if you thought it was outrageous.

HIRSCH

Well, I don't use that term, and I'm respectful. But I mean, just in terms of analysis, and -- again, I'm not acting now as an economist; I'm acting here as a person who believes that this country has certain values. And if I can make a contribution in terms of showing the difference between public use and public interest, and show how difficult it is sometimes to differentiate, or to draw the line, but how easy it is to go all the way from the fire station that I mentioned to you, to Oakland's stadium -- it seems to me it is something that deserves to be explored for any number of reasons. Because, let me tell you, if this is the case -- I'm deeply involved in a community; I'm serving on the board of this community. Most of these houses were built 60 years ago, and Prop 13 basically says, therefore, your tax payments are about the same that they were 20 - 30 years ago -- well, why don't we condemn the land over here, and put something else in here? My position is not because of my interest here, but I'm using that as an extreme example. Nobody can -- I mean, if you take that view, nobody can be safe, in terms of his home. And I think that is a very damaging position to be in, and inconsistent with what this country stands for.

BURKE

And did your research in this area contribute to legal precedent, or the legal discussion?

HIRSCH

Well, here it was mainly my teaching; that was mainly my teaching in this area. I have not worked with law firms and testified on the issue of eminent domain condemnation, no.

BURKE

OK. We are going to end it here, and pick up next time.[END OF AUDIO FILE]

1.8. Session 8( January 5, 2007)

BURKE

This is Anne Burke, and I'm here with Professor Hirsch, and it is January 5, 2007. We are getting into the 1980s, and this is a period when Professor Hirsch became involved in UC governance. And so, Professor Hirsch, could you tell us how you became involved in UC governance?

HIRSCH

In the 1950s, at Washington University, Chancellor Ethan Shepley established a small informal group that would meet in a private home from time to time to talk about initiatives related to assuring the excellence of Washington University, which at that time was an institution that was distinguished by its medical school, but not equally by the rest of its departments and schools. At UCLA, I got only active in the Academic Senate, after I resigned as Director of the Institute of Government and Public Affairs. And one of the first committees I joined --

BURKE

Why did you wait until that point to become --

HIRSCH

I had my hands full. (laughter)

BURKE

Did you?

HIRSCH

I was teaching, and was trying to establish a new institute.

BURKE

Now, what was it that appealed to you about becoming involved with the Academic Senate, or UC governance in general?

HIRSCH

To me, as an economist who had policy interests, it became increasingly clear that one, the institution of a Senate, and its importance and powers given to it by the Regents were great and almost unique. And on the other hand, the challenges were exciting --

BURKE

Almost unique in what way?

HIRSCH

Well, Regents have delegated virtually all say over educational matters to the Academic Senate. And anyhow, so it offered an enormous opportunity. And at the same time, the issue of the future of the university became, at least for me, one of -- again, a great challenge, in that universities in general -- I mean, public universities in general -- started to be discriminated against, if I can use that term, in that people, Californians, were very keen on getting their children into the University of California, but were rather reluctant to pay for it. And as a result, there was a fiscal crisis, which however, was somewhat interrupted, in the governorship of Governor Pat Brown, who was deeply committed to the university and worked very hard, in order to get a decent budget. But once he was defeated by Governor Reagan, the plight, to me, was quite clear, that the University of California will have a much more difficult financial future, than it either was used to or was aware of.

BURKE

And what kind of contribution did you feel that you could make?

HIRSCH

Well, I don't know, but at this time, I asked myself this question; it happened that I was asked to serve as an economist on the UCLA Committee on Faculty Welfare, which made sense. It addressed a whole host of welfare questions.

BURKE

And you were asked by whom?

HIRSCH

Beg pardon?

BURKE

Who asked you to serve on this committee?

HIRSCH

Well, the Senate leadership. And the next year, they made me chair, and a few years thereafter, I became the chair of the University Committee on Faculty Welfare. And I did this, off and on, for quite a few years; perhaps as many as 20 years, being at UCLA, active on Faculty Welfare, on the Committee, as chair or member, and/or statewide. I realized that two areas were particularly urgent, and the faculty should have a major input. And one was the area of health insurance, and the other was the area of retirement benefits and funding of retirement. And I became chair of the statewide Academic Senate Welfare Committee; I established subcommittees in these two areas, and the one in health was headed by Harold Simon of UCSD, a very able man from the medical school; continued to be interested in it.

BURKE

And when you say "health," are you referring to health benefits?

HIRSCH

Health benefits, and the funding of health benefits, which became a rather interesting issue almost every year, in terms of the University of California establishing its position, its salary position, in comparison to other institutions; we have established a comparison eight -- namely, eight institutions. Not only in public education, but we included some private institutions, and tried to estimate what their salary was for different levels, mainly for Professor, Associate, Assistant, and how did it compare to UCLA? And one of the things that we never wanted to talk about, but we did act on, was that almost every few years, we were looking for another combination of these institutions, in order to show that we were financially badly off, which, however, excluded all the fringe benefits on health and retirement, et cetera. Note that health benefits are basically for the rest of the life of a faculty member, so it is an enormous benefit. So these were the kind of issues that I became interested in, and pretty soon I was co-opted to serve different committees, including the UC Retirement Board. It was headed by the Senior Vice president for Administration under David Gardner -- Ronald Brady, (we had only one more for academic affairs -- that was Bill Frazer, F-R-A-Z-E-R --) Ronald Brady was a very energetic man. So that we were really dealing with the totality of retirement policy, both from the expenditure and the receipt side.

BURKE

Now, let's go back for just a minute, to this sub-committee that was looking at health. And you mentioned another topic, retirement --

HIRSCH

Budget items. But there were many others -- I mean, what you had was parking, and so on and so forth. Local faculty had these problems.

BURKE

Was there an ultimate outcome to the work this committee did in the area of health benefits?

HIRSCH

Well, I don't know how you define an ultimate outcome, but we surely greatly contributed to both the policy discussions, as to what kind of a health program we needed. And even we participated in reviewing the performance of the private companies who were serving us, and even participated in -- or at least had an opportunity to express a position vis-a-vis the selection of a new health insurance company. Note that that is a very complicated issue because of the fact that the University of California has activities all over the state, and there are today very, very few health insurance companies who could really meet that objective; they come down to three or four. And so I always felt we were at a very great disadvantage, in relation to the bargaining with health insurers, because there were so few that we could turn to. And I made a few times the proposal formally -- unsuccessfully, though -- that even if we did not intend to have our hospitals, our four university hospitals, assume that responsibility and let it be a known for the purpose of creating some competition between them and us. I never got very, very far, and I think that was a great mistake; I think we should let it be known that we were ready to consider having our own hospitals finance it. On the other hand, I was fully aware -- and that's why it was only a ruse, in a sense -- that the directors of the hospitals -- for good reason -- are rather unwilling to assume that responsibility, because they are not their problems.

BURKE

Explain to me just in a little bit more depth the position you were taking, in regard to health providers. And this would be health providers for faculty and staff, is that right?

HIRSCH

Oh, yes. For anybody who was paid by the University of California for services, namely faculty, librarians, and staff.

BURKE

OK. So your position was that the hospital should assume a greater role in -- the hospitals should be the --

HIRSCH

The insurer; they should be self-insured.

BURKE

And why did that make sense to you?

HIRSCH

Well, because if these three or four private companies knew that we had an alternative, we would introduce some competition into the bidding. I mean, I've participated in at least three or four meetings over the years that I was chair, where we tried to negotiate with these private companies. And I think our bargaining position has never been very strong. It comes out also by the very fact that we have changed very often the health insurance company. Presently, we are with Blue Cross; we were with Prudential; et cetera.

BURKE

So your position was, the UC should be able to say --

HIRSCH

The best deal.

BURKE

-- to these -- yes, if you don't give us a good deal, we will consider to do this ourselves.

HIRSCH

Yes. As a matter of fact, say, "We are exploring the possibility of us doing it ourselves."

BURKE

And -- well, you can help me out here, but -- is the UC a health provider currently?

HIRSCH

Well --

BURKE

-- as a faculty -- if I were a faculty member -- could I sign up for a UCLA or a UC health plan? Is that one of the options?

HIRSCH

No.

BURKE

No, OK.

HIRSCH

The University of California signs up with one health provider. It's a multi-year contract, namely that costs incurred by us are covered by them in a certain manner. But there's a second contract; that each of our hospitals provide us, who really pitch in and provide the insurance and so on; they themselves have contracts, so that it's sort of two levels. One is university-wide, and then for the four campuses that do have their own hospitals, they have to find the arrangement by which they -- working with some insurance company in terms of what they are doing.

BURKE

And you were never able to prevail with this idea.

HIRSCH

It wasn't that big an issue. You asked me what kind of issues interest me; I tried to be helpful. This just was one of them in the health area. And basically, I paid more attention, because I thought I was more competent to do that to the retirement area. I mean, I'm not a physician, so therefore, Harold Simon from San Diego was much better equipped. We went to some campuses off and on and made presentations and so on. But in the retirement area, yes, indeed, I was very much concerned. I also --

BURKE

Concerned with what?

HIRSCH

To retain what was accomplished, the best retirement program among universities, and perhaps even private companies.

BURKE

In California, or in the country?

HIRSCH

Country-wide. You see, benefits is something we never wanted to talk about, and this was a difficult issue; to this very day, it's a difficult issue. I could see why we were picking different universities to be included in the comparison-eight, in order to be able to show the legislature that we were really under-funded, compared to others. On the other hand, when we were trying to hire young people, or even senior people, we would have done a lot better, our bargaining positions between us and some other universities, including private -- we would have had a much better bargaining position if we would have been able to have pointed out that in addition to your money salary, you're getting about 40 percent in terms of intangibles, namely, fringe benefits.

BURKE

But for political --

HIRSCH

If you'd put those two together, we were really not that underprivileged. This problem goes on to this very day.

BURKE

And -- well, that's kind of interesting. You mean, to this day, the UC wants to be able to tell the legislature that its retirement program is slightly lacking, but to --

HIRSCH

Oh, no, no. Excuse me interrupting. What we really -- the vice president who negotiates in Sacramento - feels he is better off, to be able to show that insofar as our comparison of any position is concerned, we are 12, 14, 16% below the average salaries of those eight, not taking into consideration the benefits. The two benefits are funded differently. Health benefit negotiated almost annually, and depends on from legislative decisions. None of that is true for retirement funding. So, I mean, there's a difference between what you tell the people in relation to health, and what you tell the people in relation to retirement, and I was not very comfortable with the decision of trying to reorganize our comparison eight in order to be able to negotiate state contributions to the operation of the university.

BURKE

You weren't comfortable because you didn't feel it was a really accurate picture of compensation?

HIRSCH

No -- well, it's an issue of ethics; I don't want to get involved with that, because I don't negotiate, I didn't negotiate. But in terms of our ability to attract great faculty, it is easier to do so if you can say, yes, your salary might be x-percent below the comparison eight, but if you add to your salary the intangibles, the fringe benefits (health, retirement, et cetera), the numbers are very different. They might even be in our favor.

BURKE

Well, when a department chair is recruiting a faculty member, doesn't he or she do that?

HIRSCH

Well, I had hoped that that would be done more -- in a more comprehensive manner.

BURKE

I see. OK.

HIRSCH

You see, the university doesn't have a very good system of training chairs, and even deans and vice-Chancellors. So they --

BURKE

Training them to negotiate? Or to recruit?

HIRSCH

On anything. I mean -- OK, we say we do not train teachers. But I think the training of chairs, in this complicated world, in a university, which is of great complexity, and of deans and so on -- yes, we do some training, but it could be more elaborate.

BURKE

So they might better recruit faculty members? Is that what you're saying?

HIRSCH

It would be easier for departments to attract and retain faculty, concerned about being disadvantaged in terms of salary at Michigan, Harvard or Stanford.

BURKE

Now, during the early to mid-1980s, you became involved in a committee that looked at UC investments. And this was in the context of the divestiture question. Could you talk about how you got -- how you became involved in that committee in first place?

HIRSCH

Very simple: I was appointed. (laughter) I was asked -- and I think it was David Gardner, by the president; actually, although I think the committee was a Senate committee. But the administration participated in the appointment of this committee that worked for one year.

BURKE

Do you know -- if President Gardner was pressured to solicit faculty input on this question? Or is it something that he genuinely wanted?

HIRSCH

I cannot answer that question, I believe it was for five-year contracts, and we had these for almost, I would say since World War II, I believe it started, so that this was every five years.

BURKE

Wit, we're talking about -- I think there you might be talking about the DOE contracts. The committee that I was asking you about was the one that was looking at investments in the context of divestiture.

HIRSCH

You're right. No, I do not know that there was a precise standing order, but I would assume that it was something that was discussed between the administration, the Academic Senate leadership, and perhaps even the Regents, as to whether it should be an administrative committee, a Senate committee, or that it would be useful to combine them. I don't have the answer to this.

BURKE

I wonder if the faculty -- was the faculty of the opinion that they weren't being consulted sufficiently on this divestiture question?

HIRSCH

Well, that did come up -- leaving alone me as chair, it was a very distinguished committee; it included a former Governor of the Federal Reserve system; I mean, this was a powerful committee.

BURKE

Who was that? Do you recall the name?

HIRSCH

No, I forgot the name , but I could find it out. And we worked quite hard for about a year, and --

BURKE

What did the committee look at specifically?

HIRSCH

Well, as an economist, I can say that if you are forced to divest stocks and bonds at a time certain, compared to being able to make these decisions just in terms of the market and your need for money, you can possibly incur some losses, some real losses, or quasi-losses. I'll give you an example: if you have a major American company that did business with South Africa, and we had -- the University had stocks and bonds to the tune of $50 million -- if you are forced to sell them all by a certain date, rather than keeping them and selling them at another time when the market is better, when the price of these stocks and bonds is higher, this is a loss that accrues to the university.

BURKE

And let me interrupt for just one minute. I think this committee was called the Academic Council Committee on Investments, so this committee was looking at the effect that divestiture would have on UC investments?

HIRSCH

Divestiture of investments in American companies that do business with South Africa.

BURKE

OK. And you were the chair. So did you subject this question to an economic analysis?

HIRSCH

Well, I think there were mainly economists on the committee.

BURKE

Oh, is that right?

HIRSCH

Also a very distinguished member of the School of Management.

BURKE

OK. I interrupted you when you were in the middle of your story, so please go ahead. You were talking about the precipitous sale of stocks and bonds, and what effect that would have on --

HIRSCH

It's not precipitous, but being forced to sell suddenly at a point, rather than have the ability to sell and buy, depending on what your needs for money are, and at the same time, how the market reacts and retains a price for bonds and stocks that are involved.

BURKE

And was there a lot of pressure on the university at this time to divest immediately?

HIRSCH

Oh, well, divestiture meant immediate sale. But this was a political issue, and I've no position on that. I acted as I told you, and I think all of us acted as economists. What facts can we provide?

BURKE

And -- so the committee looked at this question from an economic standpoint over a period of months or years?

HIRSCH

Yes, I think for about a number of years.

BURKE

And the conclusion that the committee reached was what?

HIRSCH

Oh, I would have to go back to my files. That there would be significant losses for the university, if we were forced to sell at a point certain.

BURKE

And was there a question of whether Regents could be held liable for these losses?

HIRSCH

Well, the report of the committee, I presented on request, to a Regents meeting, that was specially called, in Royce Hall here at UCLA. And before I was called upon to make a report, I believe either a Regent or somebody else formally turned to the General Counsel of the Regents, and in those years, the General Counsel was serving only Regents, not as today where he was both a counsel to the Regents and a vice-president. That's a change in his role, in a certain sense; a broadening. Anyhow, the question was asked of the General Counsel -- if divestiture would result in tangible losses to the University of California, would Regents be personally liable? And he answered in the affirmative.

BURKE

Liable to whom?

HIRSCH

For the losses. Well, whoever would sue them. A public institution, which loses money in pursuing political objectives is not using its resources for the purpose that it is charged to fulfill.

BURKE

Were the members of this committee generally of a like mind on --

HIRSCH

It's unanimous. Yes. Otherwise, I wouldn't have reported it. (laughter)

BURKE

Is that right?

HIRSCH

Oh, sure they are. My report was that of the committee.

BURKE

And the losses could have been sizeable; I'm imagining tens of -- hundreds of millions, or --

HIRSCH

Well, I just don't remember. And obviously, we were hopeful that a report that we were making would provide factual information affecting the decision of Regents, so that they wouldn't be surprised if somebody sues.

BURKE

And so did you present your findings to the Regents?

HIRSCH

At that meeting, yes. I was called upon after General Counsel answered the question in the affirmative, that they were personally liable, I made my presentation, yes.

BURKE

And do you recall anything about how the Regents received your conclusions?

HIRSCH

I do not know that. Again, I acted -- and I think the committee acted, as we should -- as technicians.

BURKE

Do you recall if there was any sort of public reaction to these conclusions?

HIRSCH

Well, it was a time where Mayor Tom Bradley, were very friendly -- he was running for governor of the state of California, and as you know, the governor of the state of California is also the Chair of the Board of Regents. And you go from there.

BURKE

Well, no, but tell me a little bit more about what you're talking about with Tom Bradley here.

HIRSCH

The final meeting, and the vote, were not held at that special meeting in Los Angeles. The final vote of the Board of Regents on that issue of divestiture was held at the regular Regents' meeting in Santa Cruz. And it was a meeting at which David Gardner had worked hard to understand the situation, and basically reached the conclusion that it was not in the interest of the university to divest; he worked, as always he did, very hard to communicate with Regents before meetings, and yet, the Regents voted in Santa Cruz to divest.

BURKE

Did your report on investments form David Gardeners's ultimate decision or conclusion on the divestiture question?

HIRSCH

I cannot -- I do not remember the timing of the two. But I think -- and to some extent, it was a combination of what was right and what it is that -- the responsibility of Regents -- I cannot answer that.

BURKE

OK. But your conclusions were -- it sounds like they were very significant, and dramatic --

HIRSCH

Well, something very true before I could represent the findings of the committee, of having the General Counsel officially take a position on that issue; I was not aware of that when I got into Royce Hall.

BURKE

The divestiture was probably the most -- the biggest issue of -- or one of the biggest issues -- during the 1980s, facing the UC. Was -- I mean, it was very -- highly controversial; students were very involved; passions were inflamed over this issue. Was there any -- did your committee feel any of that? Was there any pressure on your committee?

HIRSCH

I was not aware of pressure. But again, it was very important that we as technicians would provide an answer to the very narrow question, and not worry about how politicians feel, how candidates feel, how students feel. That is not the role, in my mind, as you know, of a person who is not elected.

BURKE

Right.

HIRSCH

Elected persons should take into consideration what the technicians come up with, but they have to have any number of other inputs, which might be philosophical, which might be political -- whatever it is, I cannot answer that.

BURKE

What was your personal feeling on divestiture?

HIRSCH

In general, I feel that one should be very careful in turning to divestiture or anything of this sort. Because if today, you can penalize the university if it does not accept certain rules, why wouldn't tomorrow you penalize people who are not six feet high? So this approach to sort of problem-solving, has to be used very sparingly and sensitively. So I don't feel strongly about it. I feel we were very far removed from the discrimination that the government of South Africa was exercising. We were trying to tell a company that does some minor business that they are supporting this kind of discrimination? Anyhow, it's a very difficult question. Fortunately, again, acting as a technician, I don't have to worry about that. As a matter of fact, I should not worry about it.

BURKE

Because it can interfere with your work as an economist. It can --

HIRSCH

Well, yes. And you asked me for my personal feelings on an issue that I think is terribly important to a socially just society. Clearly, you can make a strong case why you do not want to tolerate a government discriminating against part of its population because of certain features; you can easily make a case. But on the other hand, there's so many other considerations. Particularly, I mean -- let's assume that we had IBM there; IBM's a multi-trillion dollar outfit that does a lot of business with some firms who buy computers that they sell to somebody. Anyhow, that is not our -- my competence, and I think my colleagues felt the same way. We acted as economists, say, "If we do that, and if this sale takes place at that and that time, these are the financial implications."

BURKE

The Regents did vote in favor of divestiture -- how long after you issued your report, do you happen to recall?

HIRSCH

I do not recall, but it was surely less than a year.

BURKE

And -- forgive me if I'm repeating myself -- but do you recall if these financial consequences that you discussed in your report -- did the Regents bring this up? Did these financial consequences give the Regents pause during these discussions?

HIRSCH

Well, that would have been at the session where they voted, namely the one in Santa Cruz. I do not know what the discussion was, and how much discussion there was. Because by that time, they had been faced with this problem for quite some time, and most likely they had thought about it; and there were sympathies, people who felt strongly about it, among them and among people who appointed them to be Regents.

BURKE

How much of what your committee predicted came to pass?

HIRSCH

I don't -- I really do not know; I was not at all involved as to how we acted on what the Regents recommended. And I even don't know -- vote -- I do not even know the nature of the vote, whether it was compelling us to (inaudible), whatever it is. That was beyond me.

BURKE

I see. So you're not sure if the particular scenario that you outlined in your report is the way it happened.

HIRSCH

My report, our report, did not include anything on that. What happened before I could make my presentation, the question was asked of the General Counsel, what are the implications? It was not part of my report. My report was that if we do this and this, if the Regents do this and this and this, then there's a probability that the University of California will incur losses to the tune of blah-blah-blah-blah. That's it.

BURKE

OK. Well, the Regents did do this and this --

HIRSCH

Yes, but still, I do not know to what extent -- what the final resolution was. I mean, yes, they voted for divestiture, but there might have been -- tomorrow you divest, or over the next year or two or three. I do not know. That was -- first of all, that was in Regents' meetings. I would go to Regents' meetings, because as a member of the Academic Council. I was invited to go to Regents' meetings; but only in Los Angeles. And in those days, they were quite often in Los Angeles. But --

BURKE

But did you have a relationship with David Gardner at that time?

HIRSCH

Well, a relationship that was of the following sort, yes. As a chair of the statewide Senate committee, and as a member of the Academic Council, yes, we had quite a few occasions to work together, but also, there would be two or three or perhaps four formal dinners, for Regents, for administrators, and members of the Academic Council.

BURKE

Did you ever talk to him about divestiture?

HIRSCH

No. I don't remember, no. No, I think there was more of a discussion that I had with him on some other issues. And one of them we were interested in later on, and that is the VERIP, because it was stimulated by one of his two closest associates.

BURKE

OK. We're going to come to that later. You mentioned -- I believe we were off-mic -- that David Gardner recommended against divestiture.

HIRSCH

It is my understanding -- and I don't know whether I learned this from him, directly or indirectly -- that he favored a position for the university that would not mean divestiture, as it was in the beginning discussed -- namely, for everything that has any effect on the activities of the government of South Africa. I do not know that. But basically, he was trying to find a position that would not support immediate divestiture.

BURKE

And ultimately, he lost that argument, that fight.

HIRSCH

Well, it was not a fight; the vote in Santa Cruz went against him.

BURKE

Right.

HIRSCH

And we have discussed that, later on, in the last 20 years, quite often.

BURKE

You and David Gardner?

HIRSCH

Yes.

BURKE

What kind of discussions have you had about it?

HIRSCH

Well, you see, I felt very privileged to know David Gardner, and thought he was a very, very good president. And so we were talking off and on about how he was able to work with Regents, and the very fact that he would spend an enormous percentage of his time between Regents' meetings, after having thought through what to put on the agenda, and so on and so forth -- discussing these issues with -- on a one-to-one basis by phone -- with Regents. I always admired him -- and we would talk off and on about the only time that -- he thought he had all his ducks in line, as he usually had and was right -- in this case, he was not right.

BURKE

And how does he feel about that -- looking back on it, how does he feel about it?

HIRSCH

Well, you have to realize that a president of the University of California has a lot of things to work with. He was able to move on.

BURKE

You were involved in a committee that looked at the UC relationship with the two Department of Energy labs. How did you become involved in that committee?

HIRSCH

I was appointed. (laughter)

BURKE

By whom, do you remember?

HIRSCH

I would assume that was an appointment that came from the chair of the Academic Senate, because that was an Academic Senate committee, that was to recommend the faculty position -- to make recommendations to the faculty, and in turn would go to the Regents.

BURKE

And at this time, were the Regents under some pressure to seek faculty input on this question of the DOE contracts?

HIRSCH

I don't think so. I think either it was a routine, because it had to be done every five years -- the contract had to be renewed. And we barely had finished signing a contract that they started worrying about the next contract and so on. So, no, I don't think it was an issue of that sort.

BURKE

But were the faculty consulted every five years?

HIRSCH

Yes.

BURKE

When these --

HIRSCH

I believe that's still the case.

BURKE

So was there anything different about this committee?

HIRSCH

You mean, this committee in relation to this contract, rather than the previous contract?

BURKE

Yes.

HIRSCH

That, I don't know, because I was only involved in one, and I was merely a member. But it was in a certain sense; we were aware that faculty was very sensitive to the university playing a major role in this direct, indirect support of nuclear weapons.

BURKE

Were you personally interested in that topic?

HIRSCH

I'm not sure that I would answer I'm interested, but again, my background had a bearing, in many respects, on my outlook. And that is -- in a very uncertain world, and note that at that time, the world was quite uncertain; there was still an enormous rift between the USSR and the United States, with nuclear weapons all over, ready to be used. I felt that we as a great nation would have to make sure that we are well-prepared, and therefore able to avoid a nuclear confrontation. And that, I became increasingly convinced of, because we made a trip to one or two of the labs for a day or two, and I became very much convinced of the importance of the University of California retaining a responsibility for these labs. Why? I was impressed by the caliber of the staff. And their, great emphasis, including their calling card, that they're part of the University of California. So it convinced me that if we would get out of it, and if there would be a private company, would assume that responsibility, as indeed they have on one or two occasions -- one is a facility not very far from the lab out in -- near Oakland -- we would have a hard time retaining the same quality of physicists and chemists and et cetera, et cetera. And I believe, actually, this concern has been borne out in the last two years, because the great uncertainties about the future of our labs -- I mean, when you talk about labs, you talk really about the two; we do not talk about the third, and that is the one at Berkeley, on the Berkeley campus. That is a different ball game. So yes, I was -- I felt very strongly that having been exposed to a Germany that was a danger to the world, that it was very important that we in the United States would retain the capability to prevent war, and the use of nuclear weapons. Now, this was diametrically opposed by one of the most distinguished members of that committee.

BURKE

Was that Walter Kohn?

HIRSCH

Yes.

BURKE

So there was a wide divergence of opinion on this committee.

HIRSCH

Well, in terms of one or two or three people, but not -- I mean, this was large committee; I don't know, it might have been 12 people, or whatever it was. And -- but Professor Kohn was the most deeply concerned, most vocal, and most determined.

BURKE

I think we're going to end it here, and pick up next time.

HIRSCH

Yes.[END OF AUDIO FILE]

1.9. Session 9( January 9, 2007)

BURKE

This is Anne Burke, and I am here with Professor Hirsch again, and it's January 9, 2007. And when we left off last time, we had started to discuss Professor Hirsch's involvement in a special committee that was created by the Academic Council in '85 -- it started its work in '86, I think -- to look at this relationship between the University of California and the DOE labs, Lawrence Livermore and Los Alamos. And so I want to pick up the discussion there. Before we start, I want to ask Professor Hirsch something that sort of precedes his involvement on that committee. As I understand it, this was the third special committee formed by the Academic Council to look at this relationship. And one of the reasons that one committee was followed by another was, Jerry Brown, when he was governor in -- well, he was governor from '75 to '83. But anyway, he -- and I'm quoting here from a document -- Jerry Brown was frequently articulating doubts about the appropriateness of university management. Professor Hirsch, I just wondered if this was something you ever discussed with Jerry Brown.

HIRSCH

No, I didn't. No.

BURKE

Did you ever talk about it with his father?

HIRSCH

No. Not to the best of my recollection.

BURKE

OK. It was just something that didn't come up. But you must have been aware that -- well, you knew Jerry Brown personally.

HIRSCH

Oh, I knew him well, yes.

BURKE

And were you aware that he was -- do you recall him voicing these concerns about the UC management, or UC's involvement with the DOE labs?

HIRSCH

No, I do not remember that this played a role in our deliberations. It was not an element in our deliberations.

BURKE

Now -- I'm not sure if this is something you can answer, but do you know why you were asked to be on this committee? What was the expertise that you were bringing?

HIRSCH

You would have to ask the leadership of the Academic Council. I was appointed to it, I think, in part because of my activities in faculty welfare of the university at large.

BURKE

Right, OK.

HIRSCH

And I had served on the research committee and so on. But I just cannot say why -- I surely have not worked -- yes, I had done one piece at RAND that was related to nuclear energy, but I'm sure that didn't play much of a role.

BURKE

But the Academic Council, I imagine, wasn't just interested in your skills as an economic analyst. They were interested in other things; as you mentioned you had been involved in faculty welfare issues.

HIRSCH

Well, I had served, starting -- let me see -- starting in about 1982, serving on UCLA or UC faculty welfare committees almost all the time, as chair and so on and so forth. But I assume that the leadership wanted a broad spectrum of people from all disciplines.

BURKE

OK. Let's go back. Professor, go ahead. You were talking about why you were selected to serve on the committee.

HIRSCH

Beg pardon?

BURKE

You were talking about why you were selected to serve on the committee.

HIRSCH

Oh, I do not know that. There's no doubt in my mind the university made quite explicit, the reason I was asked early to serve on faculty welfare was because, I think it is, as an economist I am well-prepared to deal with those questions -- this to me was quite different.

BURKE

Right. What was your understanding of the committee's charge? What was it you were asked to look into?

HIRSCH

Well, the charge was very simple. The contract between the Department of Energy and the university had to be renewed every five years. And the renewal obviously meant the Regents had to vote on that. And so we had established, (inaudible) a routine, how are we preparing ourselves to make recommendations to the administration, and ultimately to the Regents. And the scope, therefore -- there was some precedent to draw on -- and I think we followed, pretty much, the precedent, in terms of how we went about it, and what our main issues were, and --

BURKE

The precedent that you referred to is the precedent established by the two previous special committees.

HIRSCH

Yes.

BURKE

Now, do you recall your meetings?

HIRSCH

Oh, I sure do. This was the most difficult committee that I ever served on, in terms of the strong feelings that some of the members had on the issue.

BURKE

What kind of feelings did you bring to the committee?

HIRSCH

Well, first of all, it took me a long time to develop a position because of the need to have facts. And after we -- for example, we visited the labs, and I had a chance to talk to the staff. And their -- particularly the scientific staff, and so on and so forth.

BURKE

Let me interrupt you there and ask you -- rephrase the question: did you bring any preconceived ideas to your work on the committee?

HIRSCH

Well, in terms of my concerns -- and they might not have existed before I joined in, but as I was sitting in committee meetings, two things dominated my concern. One was -- this was still the period of the Cold War, and I thought it was terribly important that the United States could not give up its capacity to be able to respond rapidly, in case the relationship between the United States and the USSR would deteriorate. Therefore, I was concerned about the best group of people working on these problems. And number two, partly because of our visits to there, listening to and talking to some of the science staff, it became so obvious to me that -- these people who apparently looked upon us as being excellent experts -- they're proud of being part of the University of California. As I remember, even their calling cards had the University of California. And therefore, I was fearful that if we move these two installations from the University to a commercial enterprise, it would in a major -- it could in a major way reduce the quality of the staff working in the two labs. This was important to me.

BURKE

And that could have an effect on national security.

HIRSCH

Oh, yes. Yes.

BURKE

In what way -- well, especially your first concern -- in what way was that informed by your personal history?

HIRSCH

Well, I would assume, yes, that my experience in Germany as a youngster had left an imprint on my thinking and on my values, yes.

BURKE

In what way?

HIRSCH

Well, that you needed to be prepared. And a Western democracy had to be effectively protected and advanced.

BURKE

What do you recall of the meetings that this committee held?

HIRSCH

Well, as I said earlier, it was the most painful committee. Often more than one day, two or three days.

BURKE

Where did you meet?

HIRSCH

All over the state. Sometimes in the Labs, but also quite frequently in Oakland, and then in Berkeley -- usually at the airport. And there were people -- and I respect them -- who felt very strongly about a university being engaged in something that had so far-reaching effects on society, and felt that a university really should not be engaged in nuclear weapon's research.

BURKE

And when you said it was very painful, painful -- how do you mean that?

HIRSCH

Well, one member of the committee, a very distinguished member -- I greatly respect him as a scientist -- felt -- he was a physicist of great renown --

BURKE

Walter Kohn; we talked about him briefly last time.

HIRSCH

You mentioned the name, right.

BURKE

And he went on to win a nuclear prize -- I mean, excuse me, a Nobel Prize, in physics.

HIRSCH

I think he's a Nobel Laureate, and I believe also he was awarded the Presidential -- whatever it is that they award.

BURKE

Presidential Medal?

HIRSCH

Medal or something. I believe that -- I'm not quite sure. Anyhow, a very distinguished man, and I could sympathize with him in terms of the psychology, and being part of a profession and an effort and an institution that had contributed to nuclear energy, and its use in weapons. On the other hand, I don't think anybody else was as deeply committed, so outspoken, and as willing to slow down the process.

BURKE

How do you mean slow down the process?

HIRSCH

Well, we could have finished this job much faster.

BURKE

What was he doing?

HIRSCH

Well, he would each time intervene, in a very effective -- vocal, effective way.

BURKE

So he made speeches.

HIRSCH

Well, no. It's a small group; you don't make speeches. But present his opposition.

BURKE

And his feeling -- he was in favor of severance, is that right?

HIRSCH

Oh, yes. The university had no business being there.

BURKE

And again, when you said that it was a very painful process -- explain a little bit more, painful in what sense?

HIRSCH

Look, I have served on many committees, I don't want to emphasize that too much. But usually, you move along; you solve a problem, you reach an agreement. And this here was a very, very, very complicated issue, leading, in one case, that the chair and I, who had reservations -- about giving up the relationship. We came into Oakland, near the airport, to a meeting, and we were locked out.

BURKE

Now, the chair that you refer to is Malcolm Jenderson? Is that --

HIRSCH

Jenderson, yes. A member of the School of Dentistry at UC San Francisco. By the way, we did not know one another before; there was no collusion. We were really -- I really am proud; I think we all did our best by bringing different values and different concerns.

BURKE

And you and he were of a like mind, is that right?

HIRSCH

Well, we basically did not agree to the recommendation that the university should discontinue the relationship.

BURKE

And -- OK, so you mentioned this meeting -- did you say that it was in Oakland?

HIRSCH

Yes, near the airport, yes.

BURKE

At a hotel.

HIRSCH

At a hotel.

BURKE

What happened at this meeting?

HIRSCH

Well, we got there and the door was locked. (laughter) So we got there, had we had to wait -- I don't know how we learned that we were locked out or that somebody the key, but I think after one or two hours, the doors opened, and that's when we learned that we had not been welcome -- by intent, we were not to be present.

BURKE

Do you know who locked the door?

HIRSCH

No.

BURKE

Who was inside?

HIRSCH

Well, the chair was outside with me, so I don't know who was the member who did it.

BURKE

But there were some members of the committee who were inside.

HIRSCH

Oh, sure.

BURKE

And Walter Kohn was one of them who was inside.

HIRSCH

I don't know. I mean, note that we met for about three years, and very frequently, and often for two or three days. And it sort of hits you, when you suddenly -- travel all the way from Los Angeles to Oakland, and suddenly find that -- well, you're not supposed to be at the meeting at that time.

BURKE

But somebody had looked the door, and it was intentional.

HIRSCH

Oh, yes, it was intentional.

BURKE

Did you knock on the door?

HIRSCH

I don't remember; I assume we did. I mean, how else would we know that we were locked out?

BURKE

Right, right. How did you feel about it at the time?

HIRSCH

Well, I was astonished. But it had no bearing on how I proceeded. As I said, these are difficult issues. Perhaps, in many respects -- remember again that this was still during the period of the Cold War. And having worked at RAND as a consultant for many years, I was fully aware of the implications of nuclear weapons.

BURKE

What led up to this door-locking incident?

HIRSCH

I don't not remember whether there was a particular topic, a particular topic we had, or whatever it was. The meetings were not -- there was no --

BURKE

Loud voices, or --

HIRSCH

No, we still were colleagues.

BURKE

And so eventually, somebody opened the door, is that right?

HIRSCH

I would think so, yes. We went in, and we participated in the rest of the meeting, the rest of the day or two days, whatever it was.(break in audio)

BURKE

OK, so eventually you were let back in. And the members who were inside of the meeting room -- they were the six members, as I understand it, who were in favor of severance, who were in favor of discontinuing the contract.

HIRSCH

I do not remember if it was that late in the proceedings that they already had formulated a final position.

BURKE

Oh, I see. I see. So you would have meetings, and sometimes these meetings would go on for two or three days.

HIRSCH

Well, they were scheduled to go on for two or three days, yes.

BURKE

Did your opinion -- during the course of these meetings that went on for a couple of years, I think, is that right?

HIRSCH

Two or three years, yes.

BURKE

Did your thinking change or evolve in any way?

HIRSCH

It evolved. I mean, you asked me what were some of my concerns, my criteria. And they really developed, and were used to consider the facts in the future, and made it possible for me to take a position, even if it was not the most popular one.

BURKE

But explain to me a little bit more about how your thinking evolved.

HIRSCH

Well, I came in with my values, and learned facts as we met and went to the labs, which then made it possible for me to use my criteria to judge the facts that were presented to me. So this made it possible to formulate a position, ultimately.

BURKE

So your position had a more factual basis.

HIRSCH

Oh, it had to be a factual basis, yes. I mean, I had had no inkling of how proud the science staff of these labs were, proud of being part of the University of California. And there was unanimity, I'm sure, in the whole -- in the profession of physicists, chemists, and so on -- that this was a high-quality staff. These two things, in relation to my criteria, made it possible for me to formulate a position.

BURKE

Did you visit both labs?

HIRSCH

Yes.

BURKE

How many trips did you make, do you think?

HIRSCH

I don't think that I myself made more than one trip for a whole day.

BURKE

One trip to --

HIRSCH

-- to each one, yes.

BURKE

-- to each lab.

HIRSCH

But there might have been more trips. I was teaching too.

BURKE

Right, right. And so you held sort of informal interviews with the staff at each lab.

HIRSCH

We had some informal meetings, and we had I think lunch with them, and so on and so forth. And to me, it was very important to get a sort of a feel. Is this a sort of third-rate institution, in terms of staff, or is this top-notch? And what motivates these people to work there?

BURKE

Well, one of the reasons that they work there was because of the UC retirement system, wouldn't you say?

HIRSCH

Well, that's on the financial side; I don't know whether this was number two or three in their consideration. I think what really impressed me most, though, was that these were good people who were proud to be looked upon among their colleagues in the world as being part of the University of California. And that was important to them; that was important to me.

BURKE

And you made a link between their feelings and national security.

HIRSCH

No doubt about it. The alternative -- I mean, if we would have made a recommendation to discontinue the relationship with the Department of Energy, and the Regents would have approved that, clearly there would be a high probability that some of the best scientific employees would have left, or at least their enthusiasm for great work would have been reduced.

BURKE

Now, did you -- was David Gardner the UC president at this time?

HIRSCH

Right.

BURKE

Did you have any discussions with him on this issue?

HIRSCH

I wouldn't be surprised that I had, but I do not remember that. I had discussions since he left the presidency, with him on that issue.

BURKE

Can you tell me what you talked about?

HIRSCH

Well, I mean, we were reminiscing about that period, and this particular kind of a problem, as again an example of the enormous responsibility and difficulty of being president of a great university. If we would have been a small university, this little distinction -- I don't think that it would have been such an important element in the eyes of some colleagues, as to whether we were doing the right thing or not the right thing, so far as ethics were concerned.

BURKE

Why would it have made a difference if the UC were a smaller institution?

HIRSCH

Well, not a smaller, but also one of less distinction, because clearly -- well, I would assume that the leadership of the hard sciences in those days was reasonably strongly supportive of university participation, in retaining a nuclear arsenal. And if this would have been one -- the soft areas of the faculty would have been involved totally -- that would not have been the case.

BURKE

And when you say some "soft" areas of the faculty, you're referring to the "softer," -- quote-unquote -- sciences?

HIRSCH

No, many scholars.

BURKE

Now -- explain a little bit more about what you're saying?

HIRSCH

Well, if you look at -- and we have a very good example at the moment, here in the last two years -- who is responsible for the president of Harvard leaving the presidency? It was almost exclusively -- the major participants came from the humanities and the social sciences.

BURKE

And you're talking about Lawrence Summer.

HIRSCH

Lawrence Summers, yes.

BURKE

Summers.

HIRSCH

And again, I respect that. But the values tend to be quite different at times among hard scientists, engineers, on the one hand, and scholars in the humanities and the social sciences.

BURKE

And the faculty members on this committee -- you know, in addition to Walter Kohn as a physicist -- well, there's another physicist, history professor, philosophy professor --

HIRSCH

From Davis.

BURKE

-- political science -- I see a professor of Applied Science on this list. But I think your point is that scholars in the hard sciences come at this from a different perspective.

HIRSCH

Somewhat different, somewhat different, yes. But not all of them. I mean, just look again at our colleagues out of physics. I mean, he -- and again, I say, I respect that, that he felt he was carrying a very heavy burden, just being a member of that profession that produced nuclear weapons.

BURKE

Did he try to persuade you, during these meetings?

HIRSCH

Well, that's hard to draw the line, whether to persuade. Obviously, if you are eight or ten people, and you meet so often, you make your position clear, and if you're distinguished and if you're eloquent, yes, you have a very --

BURKE

And Walter Kohn was --

HIRSCH

Well, in any -- I mean, any person --

BURKE

But in these -- yes, but we're talking about these particular meetings.

HIRSCH

He made his point as strongly as he could make it, and I don't think -- nobody on the other side was equally committed to his or her position. Except for one woman, we were all men. It must have changed between that period and today; you couldn't have that. (laughter)

BURKE

How do you mean?

HIRSCH

Well, as you know, this one in the newspapers indicating that the chances that the (inaudible) success would be a woman.

BURKE

Right, right. Speaking of women, there was only one on this committee, is that right?

HIRSCH

I don't remember.

BURKE

Yes, I think there was only one woman, Anne --

HIRSCH

Who was that?

BURKE

Anne Kernan, a professor of physics at UC Riverside. Were there ever raised voices in these meetings?

HIRSCH

I don't remember that. But there were very, very strong, emotional statements made.

BURKE

Was there any feeling among members of the committee that the committee should speak in one voice, that you should be unanimous?

HIRSCH

Oh, yes. All committees I've served on have to have that, yes. There's a great desire that you bring everybody along.

BURKE

But you weren't unanimous at all.

HIRSCH

No. As a matter of fact, the question arose as to whether the two of us should write a minority report, and we decided not to.

BURKE

Why not?

HIRSCH

I don't remember that. We deliberated for quite awhile among ourselves, and we decided not to.

BURKE

So at the end of this long period of meetings, you had deliberations. Is that right?

HIRSCH

Well, yes. I mean, there was a draft of a recommendation deduced, and that was not very easy, because usually a chair produces that as being a member of the majority.

BURKE

But the chair in here -- again, we're talking about Malcolm Jenderson --

HIRSCH

Jenderson, yes.

BURKE

-- was in the minority; you and he were in the minority. If Walter Kohn was one end of the spectrum, who was the other end of the spectrum? You or Professor --

HIRSCH

Well, he was really -- he was unique. Among other things, obviously, his stature was beyond the stature of anybody else, but the rest -- this was not a bipolar meeting -- committee -- that had on the one hand, on the other hand. I think they -- nobody felt as strongly as he did for continuing, and nobody felt as strongly as he did, in his position, of discontinuing. No, no --

BURKE

Or continuing --

HIRSCH

-- the other way around. Yes. No, I don't think that it was really in that sense -- and perhaps that was helpful, because it would have led to an impasse. This way was two people opposed; that's it. The majority supported the report.

BURKE

Right. Well, who felt more strongly about continuing the contracts: you or Professor Jenderson?

HIRSCH

I cannot say that, and I'm even -- I'm not quite sure that I know what drove him to his position. We got to know one another well, but still, I do not know what was sort of the determinant in his thinking.

BURKE

Well, we talked just a minute ago about the desire for unanimity, which didn't happen.

HIRSCH

No.

BURKE

Who was it -- was there somebody in particular on this committee who was arguing in favor of unanimity?

HIRSCH

I don't think so. I think, particularly in a committee of this sort that makes recommendations which ultimately go to the Regents, on a terribly important issue not only for the university and science, but really for the nation -- you assume that unanimity is terribly important, because it would have been helpful in guiding -- the body who is being advised by faculty, although that body didn't need our advice, I assume.

BURKE

The Regents.

HIRSCH

Right.

BURKE

If they didn't need your advice, then what was the purpose of your doing this?

HIRSCH

Well, first of all, there was a tradition -- I even don't know whether it was memorialized, and it had been going on for many years -- moreover, it doesn't mean that Regents are particularly unanimously of a particular position; they can change over time. For example, today they might vote differently. I don't think they have, but -- anyhow, virtually all committees and committees and boards that I've served on: yes, you want unanimity. And that's helpful. And many of us -- there were many occasions where those who feel that they're not really in full agreement with the position of the majority, but just for the sake of unanimity, abstain or vote for it.

BURKE

How quickly did you realize that your opinion would be in the minority?

HIRSCH

I cannot -- I do not recollect that. Particularly -- there's always the chance of a compromise, that you come out with a version that you can subscribe to. But in this instance, both because of the nature of the issue, as well as the strong feelings of some, there was really no way of compromising.

BURKE

Well, let's jump ahead for a minute to what the Regents ultimately decided. This committee's work was done in anticipation of a renewal vote by --

HIRSCH

In preparation for --

BURKE

Preparation, thank you -- of a renewal vote by the Regents. And the Regents did vote to renew, as they have every --

HIRSCH

-- have done each time, yes.

BURKE

Did you take any particular interest in that vote? Were you there?

HIRSCH

Oh, no. No, I wasn't there.

BURKE

Do you feel that the lack of unanimity in the committee's report had any effect on the Regents' vote?

HIRSCH

I wouldn't know. I don't know.

BURKE

OK. Well, we -- OK. Let's talk a little bit about what the committee decided -- I jumped ahead a bit there. But before we do that, I'm going to throw out five topics, and I want to see if I can get your thinking on these at the time you served on this committee. And these are five areas that the committee was asked to look into, it was whether the contracts are supportive of the university's primary missions of teaching and research. What did you think on that score?

HIRSCH

We spent quite some time on getting empirical information, and we were surprised that by far, the majority of scientists visiting Livermore were members of the UC faculty.

BURKE

So, in other words, there was a lot of exchange --

HIRSCH

A lot of interaction.

BURKE

-- mutually beneficial --

HIRSCH

Moreover, there was a lot of cooperation and research between particularly the two campuses, Berkeley and Davis, on the one hand, and Lawrence Livermore. So, I think, yes. The other thing was that the two labs were able to get funding for equipment that was so expensive that no other part of the university either had them or could expect to have them. And I would assume that in the physical sciences in those days -- today it's also the biomedical sciences -- equipment is terribly important and terribly expensive.

BURKE

The second area was whether the contracts are consistent with the university's essential commitment to freedom of expression.

HIRSCH

Well, that's an interesting question. I do not see how our committee could find that anybody would be prevented, any faculty member or student, of -- in an orderly manner -- voicing an opposition to the Regents' decision. I mean, freedom of expression would express itself either in lack of cooperation, or even worse, in riots. That never happened. I think the question I would ask is slightly different, namely: is there any interference in pursuing one's research and teaching resulting from us having these two labs, and the answer, I think, would be by and large, no, I don't think there is.

BURKE

OK. The third area: whether the activity can be performed at least as effectively by the university as by other institutions.

HIRSCH

Well, I answered that earlier, and I think that -- look, David Gardner always took the position -- and actually now I can answer your question, because now I remember -- yes, we had conversations, David Gardner and I. And he was proud of our relationship, because we were performing this as a public service. And remember, we only took money to pay the out-of-pocket costs. We didn't get any overhead, blah-blah-blah. So it was not a financial enterprise; it was a public service. And that is an important role that the university plays.

BURKE

And the fifth area -- and you've dealt with this a bit too -- is whether the activity contributes to human well-being.

HIRSCH

That's, I think -- that's the great question, that if you look back from today to when we first started doing that -- well, it helped us defeat Japan. And that's a great contribution -- not because I hate -- as a matter of fact, I'm very close to Japan, and I've a dozen former students there, and all that. But the fact is, it shortened the war, and actually, because of mutual destruction -- that was the strategy; it prevented use of nuclear weapons to this very day. So it is certain that -- on the other hand, the world is more nervous than ever. Look today at North Korea, Iran, and you hear statements out of Washington that we, even in the United States, have to worry about them becoming nuclear. So this is -- that's a value judgement, and I -- as a matter of fact, I do not know who can answer that, other than in terms of hope and his intuition.

BURKE

I mean, some people would argue that nuclear weapons no longer have the deterrent effect that they had during the Cold War, and the nature of warfare has changed completely, and that these weapons can now get into the hands of rogue states, as you mentioned, or simply bad actors. So it's a completely different ball game.

HIRSCH

Well, and also that they're very -- as long as you're rational, and strong governments, which we -- now we're moving into a different age, where we have terrorists. As long as -- and that's again, remember the period we were in, when we met. But you had rational people, and that you're glad as the policy came in, that whoever started would end up dead too, because of retaliation. And the retaliation would be enormous. So this -- again, in spite of my work, for many years at RAND where we dealt with these questions, and so on -- this is one that I wish there was an answer.

BURKE

Let's talk a little bit about the committee's conclusions. The report that the Academic Council issued on that committee's work said that all but one member of the committee found that the university's operation of the laboratories failed to satisfy these criteria -- these criteria being the five criteria that I mentioned before. Now, who was that one member of the committee?

HIRSCH

I don't remember. I don't think that -- as a matter of fact, I don't remember that we went that way.

BURKE

OK. But that would have to have been either you or Professor Jenderson.

HIRSCH

-- or -- yes, either one. Yes.

BURKE

OK. And then six members of the committee recommended -- essentially severance, phasing out these contracts. The other two members, you and Professor Jenderson -- and I'm quoting here -- "...believe that it is not yet clear that a total contractual break is required, and suggest that consideration should be given to a separate corporate body to operate the laboratories within the university's legal structure," end quote. That was your recommendation at the time. That hasn't happened.

HIRSCH

No. As a matter of fact, you might say that was a way to compromise.

BURKE

Oh, is that right?

HIRSCH

Well, it's obvious. I mean, it would have satisfied those of us who felt that we would want to retain the best in the lab by still retaining the relationship for these people with the University of California. On the other hand, it would have, in terms of moral values and students and so on -- they would have -- might have been able to say, well, it is an atrocity to build nuclear weapons, but this way, it's really not the university, it's -- that's the way that --

BURKE

Yes, but wouldn't they -- but it would still be the university, wouldn't it?

HIRSCH

Yes, but not directly, there was a separate unit.

BURKE

Well, yes, it calls it a "separate corporate body to operate the laboratories within the university's legal structure."

HIRSCH

Right, yes. I'm not saying that this was -- I don't remember what influence that had, but I'm using it as an example that except for extremists, very often -- and all the -- except for these extremely far-reaching implications of a decision -- it's often possible to reach a compromise and unanimity.

BURKE

And you felt this would have been a good one.

HIRSCH

Well, at least -- it was a feeler.

BURKE

Yes. But it never went anywhere. Did you ever pursue it beyond your work on this committee?

HIRSCH

No, I -- once that report was issued, I was out of there.

BURKE

Did anybody else pursue it on your behalf, or on the behalf of you and Professor Jenderson?

HIRSCH

Not to the best of my knowledge, no. But again, remember, this was an activity we engaged in, in addition to all of other things we were doing, as faculty members, as teachers, blah-blah-blah. I mean, you have to get out of one or the other.

BURKE

Right. What do you think with the way the contracts are operated today? Lawrence Livermore remains under UC management, right, and Los Alamos is under this sort of new arrangement, a limited liability --

HIRSCH

I'm really -- I'm not up-to-date, and I'm really not qualified. Again, these are the kind of issues that became complicated by a fact, again, as you know -- I am very loyal to David Gardner -- he had the good foresight of having organized -- when he came, he reorganized the university management. He went from -- quite a large number of vice-presidents -- to two senior vice-presidents, one in the scientific, academic, and one in the administrative area. And under, there's quite a few others. But it's not today's subject, by the way. And as a result, he had the good judgement to bring in a good physicist to be the senior vice-president for academic affairs. One of the empirical studies that we engaged in -- the committee members -- we went through the calendar of Bill Frazer, and we found that about --

BURKE

Bill Frazer was, or is --

HIRSCH

He was the senior vice-president for academic affairs. We found that up to a quarter of his time was being spent on behalf of the university on affairs of the national labs. And he was a physicist. The kind of problems that the university had in the last few years after we no longer had Frazer there, or somebody like him -- again testifies to the importance of having the right people at the right spot. I mean, today's problem of the labs is not the ones of a physicist who has misgivings. It's really that it becomes more difficult to defend why it should be that the University of California runs the place, with us being accused of so many unfortunate situations.

BURKE

It's very distracting. Is that what you're saying?

HIRSCH

Oh, more than that, yes. As a matter of fact, now -- I mean, this whole darn thing of the new compromise that we have, both private and public and so on -- use this term that -- and you have to forgive me -- enormously increases the transaction costs of the university of participating in this program of the two labs.

BURKE

That was something that concerned David Gardner quite a bit, is that what you're saying?

HIRSCH

Well, he made the right decision. I don't know whether he foresaw that we would be in trouble, but he had the vision of saying, look, we have those labs, and I don't know exactly what, but each one had 3-5,000 employees, scholars and scientists -- to bring in a person on the second echelon. One of the two who really had the competence and commitment to do the job of oversight and leadership for the labs. And even he spent perhaps too much time on that. It took away from his being a leader in the academic affairs, he put that much time in there. But I'm using that only to show that really, some of us, we're very keen of getting as much hard information as we could. And for example, finding that he spent about a quarter of his time on these matters, I think, was just the right way to go.

BURKE

Well, what you were referring to was what they called the "opportunity costs" of running these labs, and they're enormous. Are the opportunity costs worth it today?

HIRSCH

Well, what we have today: the cost is enormous. I mean, you have to develop a totally new raison d'etre and implementation of a relationship between a great research university and private industry. Totally different culture. Totally different management. I mean, I'm talking about that -- in a broader sense, possible. Before, we had -- that's why I'm using Bill Frazer's example -- it was clear, you had the Regents who delegated to the president, the president had one of his two key people, he could rely on them, and he was right, and he was successful. This was clean, took a lot less time and energy and so on, than any new arrangements will take.

BURKE

OK. So it sounds as if you do have an opinion on the new arrangement.

HIRSCH

No, I'm talking in the abstract. I have no idea of how this will work out, but having seen -- having been in the university most of my life, and having seen (inaudible) private industry, these are totally different in every sense. Just look at the whole objective functions. What is -- private industry, what is the objective function of a private firm?

BURKE

Make money?

HIRSCH

You said it. That's not what I'm interested in as a member of a university.

BURKE

Well, is it discouraging to you at all, that your compromise -- the solution, which you felt was a good solution, it never came to pass?

HIRSCH

Well, I don't know. One tries one's best. And on the other hand, there's -- again, I emphasize -- I'm very respectful of the feelings and the anxieties and the crunches, psychological problems, that members -- leading members of the profession that brought about the nuclear weapon might have. And I don't know if we ever could persuade a person of that sort to move into the middle.

BURKE

Now, you mentioned before that you didn't think the Regents needed your help, needed the committee's help on this question.

HIRSCH

Well, that was facetious. That was facetious. (laughter)

BURKE

Oh, OK. OK.

HIRSCH

No, I think -- personally, I think it's good to do that, because, again, we have young people who are part of our community at the university, namely our students, who often feel very strongly about matters like that. We shouldn't forget that today, we are in a different period than we were during the Cold War, when it comes to nuclear weapons. And I think that we have the support of faculty, and in many instances, we go in, as you know, in these committees, we put even students sometimes in there, which -- that's not always -- works very well, necessarily. Anyhow, I think that's a good way. Remember, this institution excels in its faculty participation, in establishing its values and its competence. As an example, Regents basically do not interfere in any way in education issues. Totally delegated to faculty, designed to be competent to do that.

BURKE

Facetious or not, do you think that the Regents particularly cared what faculty thought?

HIRSCH

Well, I would assume that everybody would have come out with a very strong moral statement. And then foreseen, but for different reasons -- we wouldn't get into this bind of a mix between, yes, we can say we have still -- we fulfilled the public responsibility, but so -- in such a difficult arrangement, this private industry -- some might have said this is -- not the military cost, but for us to fulfill our responsibility to society is becoming too high. And under these new circumstances, we might not even be producing the same effect that we used to produce.

BURKE

But the point I was getting was, you know, back in the '80s when you were holding these meetings and discussing this topic, did you -- was there any sense that you were going through the motions, or did you genuinely feel that the Regents --

HIRSCH

No, no, no. We wouldn't have done that for three years, no. We were hopeful that we had something to say that would be taken seriously, and we were encouraged by the Academic Senate, and by David Gardner, and so on, to do the best that we could do. And we did; we really were deeply devoted to produce a set of recommendations that were the best that we could come up with.

BURKE

And did the Regents take your conclusions seriously?

HIRSCH

I don't know. I don't know.

BURKE

OK. We will pick up next time.[END OF AUDIO FILE]

1.10. Session 10( January 12, 2007)

BURKE

This is Anne Burke, and today's date is January 12, 2007. And I'm here with Professor Hirsch for another discussion. And today, we want to talk about a program that was considered pretty revolutionary, pretty radical at the time. Professor Hirsch, can you sort of walk us through the planning for VERIP, how it started, and where the idea came from, and what it was all about.

HIRSCH

In 1986, I was appointed by the president of the university to be a member of the University of California Retirement System Board, and served on it until 1994. And the scope of that Retirement -- of this committee -- was to have a vibrant and yet a very secure system of funding the retirement of faculty and staff shortly after we -- my appointment, the committee -- which was headed by the senior vice president for administrative affairs, Ron Brady, decided that it might be useful to consider efforts to improve the turnover of faculty, to rejuvenate the faculty. And as we started working on that, we ran into the financial crisis of the state of California, brought about by the fortunate event -- namely the demise of the Soviet Union, and therefore the East/West problems that we had. For California, that meant significant negative effects on California's aerospace industry, which meant then the state had financial problems, and that was translated into problems that were passed on to the university. I believe there was even a period that we paid not by cash but by IOUs for a short time. So very rapidly, we moved from rejuvenating the faculty to seeing whether we could not develop a program that would permit the University of California to use some of its retirement funds for salaries, and -- by having faculty induced to retire at an earlier age.

BURKE

Let me interrupt you for a minute. Why was it felt that the faculty needed to be rejuvenated?

HIRSCH

I have no opinion on that, but that -- as a matter of fact, you might say, private, public, and non-profit organizations could stand the rejuvenation, in the interest of these organizations fulfilling their mission as best as possible. So let me leave it on that level.

BURKE

Can we explore it --

HIRSCH

Well, remember, we have a system that makes dismissal of faculty very, very difficult, namely --

BURKE

Tenure.

HIRSCH

-- tenure. So anyhow, we looked then at the possibility of developing a rather comprehensive system that would induce early retirement. And we prepared a program, which was adopted by the Regents, where whichever (inaudible) stands for -- whatever it is.

BURKE

How about Voluntary Early Retirement Incentive Program.

HIRSCH

Excellent. You're much better than I am, right.

BURKE

And when you say "we," who are you referring to?

HIRSCH

This board.

BURKE

Can you remember any of the other players who were involved with this?

HIRSCH

Well, I can go to my files and find out who were members; I think there were only two faculty members, there were two staff, and I think the rest was really coming from the administration, including the chair. Actually, one of the staff appointees was an attorney at UCLA. Anyhow, so we called this VERIP I, which was made possible by the fact that the university -- and specially that means the treasurer -- had been rather successful in investing retirement contributions. So we had a significant amount of money that could be used to have faculty, who retires early, be remunerated. And at the same time, we also developed a part of the program of how those who retired early could be "recalled," and "recalled" should be in quotation; it means something at the University of California, and we developed even a pay scale. However, that was significantly lower than what particularly full professors, senior people, who retired get. I think 20% or 30% of the faculty made use of VERIP, and this program, in many respects, made it possible for the University of California to be financed at a time when the state greatly curtailed its contributions, because that money was saved; and we were bringing in young people, which was the initial idea, rejuvenation -- and senior faculty who benefited from VERIP but was willing to be recalled. Now, after the first VERIP, for a variety of reasons --

BURKE

Let me interrupt you for a minute again, and get back to the idea of rejuvenation. Who was it who was saying that the faculty needed rejuvenation? Where was this coming from?

HIRSCH

I would assume that that was a statement that was made at the beginning of our turning to this policy that the time had come to find incentives to rejuvenate the faculty. I, at this moment, do not remember who specifically proposed this as an objective.

BURKE

Was the faculty, on the average, getting old? Was it a greying faculty, was that the issue?

HIRSCH

Oh, yes. Sure. Almost by definition, because particularly with tenure, we had a lot of people who reached -- and then -- oh, I should not forget that the federal government had changed its conditions for retirement. Before, at age 70, you had to retire. And you're looking at a person who had the good fortune of having been born just a little before he attained the age of 70; so I had to, by law, retire. And later on, for about 15 years, have been recalled. Anyhow, so, yes, we were aging.

BURKE

And was there a feeling that the faculty wasn't attracting the best students? The best graduate students? Or that the faculty wasn't involved in the type of research that the administration wanted to see from them? What was --

HIRSCH

I cannot -- I was not involved in the discussions about rejuvenation. I have a hunch that the chair one day, after discussions on the highest level, decided to bring this up as a matter of policy that the university would want to pursue.

BURKE

OK. So it started off as a way to pump fresh blood into the faculty, but then it also --

HIRSCH

As a purpose -- the purpose was.

BURKE

The purpose.

HIRSCH

Yes.

BURKE

But then the second purpose became a cost-cutting measure.

HIRSCH

That only occurred later. It led into an accelerated effort to have VERIP, because of the fiscal condition of the university.

BURKE

Is VERIP counter-intuitive, in a way, because professors' retirement pensions and retirement benefits and all of that, and then they were collecting a second salary.

HIRSCH

No. They would only -- if they would be recalled. But that was a fraction of their salary. It might have been -- and I don't remember this exactly -- but for any one course that one taught, one might get in the neighborhood of -- I don't know -- $10-20,000, compared to $60-70-80,000.

BURKE

Oh, I see. But then didn't it also put a lot of pressure on the retirement system, because they were collecting retirement benefits, right?

HIRSCH

Well, it's not -- look, the system was so over-funded that as a matter of fact, we might -- we even gave some consideration that if we do not find a useful way to apply these funds, that the state might come along and reduce some other contributions that they're making to the university.

BURKE

Oh, I see. So the retirement system was flush with --

HIRSCH

Oh, it was, yes.

BURKE

Oh, I see. OK. Was VERIP considered radical?

HIRSCH

Yes, to some extent, because before -- and that was very difficult in a university -- you could, on an ad hoc basis, buy out -- quote-unquote buy out somebody, namely have somebody retire early and be induced to do so by a particular financial consideration. But that would have been on an ad-hoc basis. Here, it was -- and as I mentioned -- perhaps 20 or 20-odd percent of the faculty applied -- I mean, participated in this program.

BURKE

Who came up with the idea for doing it this way?

HIRSCH

I think they -- there was great leadership by the senior vice-president, namely Ronald Brady. He was a person who was very dynamic.

BURKE

And the idea may have originated with him?

HIRSCH

I don't know. At least, I did not -- for me, it was a new idea, which I was delighted to see us implement. I mean, it was a very difficult period, perhaps one of the most difficult periods financially, that I know, at the university. Now, and starting about the year 2001, where we have a fiscal crisis, it was not of the same magnitude of the one ten year's earlier.

BURKE

That would have been the third VERIP, or the second?

HIRSCH

Oh, no. I was still talking about the first VERIP.

BURKE

Oh, I see. OK.

HIRSCH

But then after we successfully launched the first VERIP, we were still in the midst of a financial crisis, in terms of the state's inability to support us as they used to do. So we decided we still had enough money, and we instituted a second and a third VERUP. And that had some problems, even personal problems, because some faculty that waited until the third VERIP felt that they got a less advantageous financial deal than they would have gotten if they had participated in VERIP I or II.

BURKE

Did they? Did they in fact get a less --

HIRSCH

Yes. I think that the third was not that generous. And I had a number of people who came to me and basically gave me a hard time, that --

BURKE

What did you tell them?

HIRSCH

We tried to do our best. And again, I felt very secure in saying that, since I had not benefited from the whole program, not VERIP one, two, or three.

BURKE

And so you were not eligible to participate in VERIP.

HIRSCH

No. By that time, I had legally been forced to retire.

BURKE

So you -- OK, because you had turned --

HIRSCH

-- 70 --

BURKE

--70.

HIRSCH

-- a few months before this all came to be.

BURKE

And because of that federal legislation, you had to retire.

HIRSCH

I had to.

BURKE

But then you came back.

HIRSCH

But on a recall basis. I -- all of -- my standing as a legally active member of the University of California ceased in 1970. No, no, no: in 1990.

BURKE

In 1990.

HIRSCH

When I was 70, yes.

BURKE

OK. Just before these VERIP discussions began. And when -- OK, so when you returned -- you returned to the university as an emeritus, is that right?

HIRSCH

I remained in the university, and my status was emeritus, yes.

BURKE

OK. And did you continue to teach?

HIRSCH

Oh, yes. That's what I call "recall." I taught until about two years ago, a course or two in law and economics, on the basis of a recall.

BURKE

Oh, I see. OK. Now, do you recall -- OK, going back to those early discussions of VERIP, do you recall hearing about this plan the first time? Do you recall what you thought about it?

HIRSCH

Well, I thought this was a very forward-looking -- not risk-less, but perhaps necessary program that was the best we could come up with to prevent this ship from sinking -- I mean, the financial situation was just terrible.

BURKE

It was that dire. What were the risks of VERIP?

HIRSCH

Well, the risk would be that somebody would take an early retirement, and would be unhappy about the fact that he's now retired, and/or is unhappy because if he would have stayed, his or her salary would have been much larger than it was now for being a retiree. Note that under our retirement program, you are getting a retirement check based on your last salary, whereas if you are employed, you would have gotten all of the annual or biannual increases that indeed took place. And that's a significant effect. For example, I was, when I retired, a professor step eight; that was the highest step that we had, and my salary at that time was pittance, compared to the salary of some of my colleagues -- for example, two colleagues of mine left the university this year; each one apparently is given a salary of close to $500,000 a year.

BURKE

Wow.

HIRSCH

Wow.

BURKE

And yours was considerably less.

HIRSCH

Oh, yes. Much, yes.

BURKE

OK, so there was --

HIRSCH

But I had no kicks coming.

BURKE

You did not stand --

HIRSCH

I didn't choose to retire. By law -- right.

BURKE

Was that unhappy for you, that you were forced to retire?

HIRSCH

Well, I felt I was young enough and active enough to continue to what I had been doing for so long. Yes, I would have been happier not to be forced to retire.

BURKE

Yes. And you would have been financially --

HIRSCH

But that was not an issue. I mean, this was the law.

BURKE

Right, right. Right. But getting back to VERIP, there was some fear that you would have disgruntled faculty members.

HIRSCH

No, I think we didn't really anticipate that. It was a rather busy period to get something totally new instituted, which is very difficult in an organization as large and as complex as the University of California. The issue came only up after some of our colleagues, who had availed themselves of VERIP III, suddenly realized that VERIP III was not as generous as previous ones.

BURKE

But what about -- were there any other risks associated with this program?

HIRSCH

Well, we could have gotten into a situation that -- let's say, that would have been a significant decline in the value of our investments.

BURKE

How do you mean?

HIRSCH

The university was drawing, basically, on the fact that we had accumulated funds; the treasurer had invested well. And it could have happened that her best efforts, because of external circumstances, would have depleted the kitty, and would have made it very, very difficult to implement VERIP I, II, and III, and have yet made commitments to people.

BURKE

Did that happen?

HIRSCH

No.

BURKE

Because it was not until 2001, when we had the decline in economic activity. And by that time, I think the whole system really got itself adjusted to these programs.

BURKE

Was VERIP controversial at all, at the time?

HIRSCH

I'm not aware of that, because it was a voluntary program. V for Voluntary. No, seriously.

BURKE

Right, right. But at the same time, the UC was losing a lot of faculty who really were in the prime of their careers.

HIRSCH

Well, I don't know "prime." I mean, I don't remember exactly what conditions you had to meet. You had -- what age, and how many years you had to be at the university, and so on. I don't remember the details. But most people really had reached an age of perhaps -- well, I think the year was 65, and a certain number of years having been at the university, before you could participate. So these were some people who by that time were ready to retire.

BURKE

Oh, I see. But a lot of them were recalled, and came back to teach at a much lower salary.

HIRSCH

Well -- but remember, they had a very, very generous retirement package, which they supplemented, complemented, by a relatively small amount of pay for teaching your course or two. Now, note: there were faculty who left the University of California through the rather generous arrangement of VERIP, and started at another university and started de novo. Then they had two salaries.

BURKE

That's not a bad deal.

HIRSCH

Well, again, but I think, speaking for myself, I looked at the problem that we had, and I was convinced this was not something that would disappear overnight.

BURKE

And which problem are you referring to?

HIRSCH

I mean the financial problem of the state. I mean, the Cold War's ended. So I was delighted to participate in trying to find an acceptable program that would be consistent with our values, namely in terms of the financial treatment of faculty, and at the same time, assist the University of California to remain, financially, in reasonably good shape. And I think we did this; the program, in that sense, I believe was a success.

BURKE

And how would you describe your role in VERIP?

HIRSCH

Well, I was only on the board. I mean, from day one, I participated in the deliberations, and I believe there was reasonably -- there was unanimity, although there was a difference, perhaps, in the interest of faculty on the one hand, and administration and staff. But I do not remember that in anyway did this handicap an effort to do the best for the institution.

BURKE

Do you recall any of those differences?

HIRSCH

Beg pardon?

BURKE

Do you recall any of the differences between the faculty, staff, and Regents?

HIRSCH

Well, the Regents were not sitting on the retirement board, but the administration, like Brady and some others -- they had to reflect the interest of the Regents. And faculty might have -- anyhow, I do not remember the detail, but I think we worked as a group devoted to the welfare of this institution.

BURKE

What response did you -- for that first VERIP, what response did you get from the faculty who were eligible to participate in it? What kinds of things did they say to you about it?

HIRSCH

Well, by and large, they agreed to support, because remember, it was voluntary, you could stick it up, or you could pick up and forget about teaching, research, or you could be recalled, or you could make arrangements to continue to do research, having a bench to work on. Or, in the extreme case, say, take an appointment at another university with a full salary.

BURKE

So there were two more VERIPs after that first one. Were they also successful?

HIRSCH

Well, they couldn't have been that successful if you define it in terms of number of faculty who availed themselves, because -- or yet -- induced, if I can use that term, a large percent of the eligible people to exercise that right. So the pool became smaller. And -- but yes, it was still a large number, and I would summarize this effort of VERIP: in many respects, it permitted the University of California to continue to work at about the same support level, and the support coming from the retirement program, because we had this decline in salaries, and yet we were able to take that money and use only part of it to replace the faculty that left, or have the faculty who are left, work at the small contribution, financial contribution, and basically do the same they did before. It was an excellent arrangement. All voluntary, you see.

BURKE

Right. So for the second and third VERIPs, there was less participation than the UC would have hoped.

HIRSCH

Right. Well, there were two countervailing forces. One was, there were fewer eligible. On the other hand, there was a greater understanding the second time around, of how a VERIP works out. I mean, you have to realize that the first time that you give up the right to be a full-fledged faculty member and go into emeritus state, there are a lot of uncertainties.

BURKE

Such as what?

HIRSCH

Well, among others, the respect of your colleagues. There's a bad habit of young people looking down at times at older people.

BURKE

Is that right? (laughter) Did that happen at all, would you say?

HIRSCH

I don't know that. I tried very hard to be a good colleague.

BURKE

So somebody looking at VERIP -- a professor looking at VERIP for the first time might say, "Wow, this is really a great deal." But there are some -- there are some negative things that you have to consider as well,

HIRSCH

Well, I haven't in life -- I've never found anything, or hardly anything, that is only positive. It's -- and particularly, there are -- uncertainties come about. Here, look, some had been teaching, by that year, the year 1990, had been teaching in the neighborhood of 40, 50 years. And suddenly to voluntarily give it up; there are quite a few other uncertainties. How are you going to fill your day?

BURKE

Right.

HIRSCH

How will your former colleagues look up you? Will you retain your office?

BURKE

Well, did they retain their offices?

HIRSCH

That's a decision that is totally outside the purview of the retirement board.

BURKE

Oh, it's up to each department?

HIRSCH

That's a departmental issue, yes.

BURKE

Well, I wonder -- did you ever hear anything from faculty members who took VERIP and then encountered some of these -- how did you refer to them? -- uncertainties. Were there faculty members who felt that, you know -- "My stature in the UCLA community is not what it was."

HIRSCH

No, I had not -- I had no experience in this sense, but I had experienced that those some -- small number of people -- who took the third VERIP, who were unhappy, and talked to me about them getting quote-unquote "short-changed," because the third was not as generous, in their eyes, as the first. On the other hand, you might say that they had the advantage of somebody else having experienced what it takes to participate in a VERIP, and it reduced the uncertainties.

BURKE

So they could look at their colleagues who had already taken VERIP, and see what kind of an experience they were having? Is that what you're saying?

HIRSCH

Yes. Talk to them, and they might even serve on committees, on a campus -- welfare committees -- where there was quite a bit of discussion, exchange of ideas. And I think there was the opportunity for learning from the experience of others. It reduces uncertainty.

BURKE

Now, you mentioned that you would not have been eligible for VERIP. What if you had been eligible for VERIP? Would you still have participated in the discussion?

HIRSCH

Oh, sure, yes. But I wouldn't have retired. Just like I continued to be recalled until a couple of years ago, mainly for -- my hearing deteriorated. I have a strong voice, the students could hear me, but I couldn't hear them. That wasn't fair. So I quit teaching.

BURKE

The point I was getting at was, you'd mentioned that there was no conflict of interest with you participating in these VERIP discussions. What if there had -- what if you had been eligible for VERIP? And what if this conflict of interest issue had been there? Would you have -- would you have participated in VERIP? I mean -- I'm sorry, would you have participated in the discussion? Would you have been part of the discussions?

HIRSCH

I would have recused myself from voting on it.

BURKE

Why?

HIRSCH

Because it -- a positive vote could be looked upon as self-serving. And I didn't have that problem, unfortunately, in that I was just not eligible, and fortunately, therefore, I think I was able to be an objective, respectful participant in the deliberations.

BURKE

OK. And you were just saying, if you -- even if you had been eligible, you wouldn't have taken it.

HIRSCH

No.

BURKE

Because you wanted to continue on as a full professor.

HIRSCH

Exactly. Which I did, have done, ever since 1990. Partly by teaching, but surely by my participation in university affairs, on the Senate level and administration level. I have felt that there are great issues that I had some competence in, and I would like to make whatever minor contribution I can make.

BURKE

Are you still involved with the retirement board at all?

HIRSCH

Oh, no. That's a four-year term, and I was reappointed for another four. So I could not participate, even if I wanted to. But, this is my understanding from colleagues serving on the board, that the scope, responsibilities, and areas of effective participation in the retirement program by the board been significantly reduced.

BURKE

In what way?

HIRSCH

I do not know the detail. But when I retired, for example, I felt that the university had not only participated in leading, and participated in the deliberations of that board, but also what -- eventually all instances except our recommendations. And I remember vividly that Jack Peltason -- because when I retired, Jack was the President, came to the meeting, and made a very nice speech, and handed over to me a plaque. So that was, in a certain sense, a recognition, that I had made a contribution.

BURKE

OK. I think we're going to stop here and pick up next time.[END OF AUDIO FILE]