00:00:20
CLINE:
-- we go. OK. This is Alex Cline, I'm interviewing Dr. Jimmy Choi. Today
is July 21, 2006, and the interview is taking place in his office in Los
Angeles. Actually, it's close to Hollywood. Good morning, Dr. Choi.
00:00:23
CHOI:
Good morning, Alex.
00:00:40
CLINE:
Thank you very much for sitting down to talk with me. As I already
described to you, we always start at the beginning with these
interviews, so that's what I'm going to do. My first question to you is,
where are when were you born?
00:01:12
CHOI:
I was born in 1936, on June 19, in Korea. Right now, my hometown is
located in South Korea, near Taegu, but (inaudible) that I was born.
00:01:15
CLINE:
And how many were in your family? How many children?
00:01:38
CHOI:
I was the first son, and I have two brothers and two sisters. But I
remember the two girls, (inaudible) they were young.
00:01:44
CLINE:
Oh, really. Wow. And do you remember how old you were when they passed
away?
00:01:59
CHOI:
Oh, one daughter, she was under six, and another daughter was maybe one
or two.
00:02:04
CLINE:
You were clearly old enough to remember this, then. Do you remember the
cause?
00:02:22
CHOI:
They say some -- (inaudible) -- medicine, overdoses, some kind of
narcotive.
00:02:26
CLINE:
Really? Whoa. Both of them?
00:02:43
CHOI:
One, the big one. But younger sister, maybe -- I'm not sure, but maybe
she was related (inaudible).
00:02:48
CLINE:
And what do you remember about your parents? Who was your father, and
what did he do?
00:03:35
CHOI:
My father was born in 1914. He was educated in primary school, but he
couldn't finish even six years. Even though his education was very
limited, he was very ambitious. His father wanted him to stay at home
doing the farmer's job, but my father ran away.
00:03:36
CLINE:
He had other ideas.
00:08:10
CHOI:
Yeah. He went to Manchuria. He cultivated his own way. And so in 1945,
the (inaudible), our whole family was in Manchuria. And after that, he
came back to our hometown, and we just sold agricultures, because
(inaudible), he purchased some land. But unfortunately, at that time and
during 1945, 1950, South Korea was politically very unstable, because
the Communist agent -- they imitated the life, and my father was
(inaudible), and then he was (inaudible), ran away to the city, to
Taegu. After that, he went to [Poson]. In 1950, we were in Poson, and he
had a small shop, a market. And (inaudible), and he did his best to
educate our siblings, and I admire him very much, I love him, and he was
very strong. All family members love him.
But when I came to America, he insisted, "Don't go to America. I will
support you until you die in Korea. Don't go to America." At that time,
I was also ambitious to taste a new life. So I did, I came to America.
And that was 1971. And later, he came also to America, and stayed with
us three years, and passed away. And so I brought his body to our
homeland, and (inaudible). It was 1993. But my mother was the same age,
a very kind, loving lady; I love her very much. (inaudible) her husband.
Unfortunately, she had some disease after my (inaudible) youngest sister
was born, and then after that, she passed away before 50. So it was
1963, exactly. So we miss her very much. And after that, my father
(inaudible), to be alone is not so good. And he came to America, he
married his wife, but she also died here. So these are my parents.
00:08:12
CLINE:
And what were their names?
00:08:30
CHOI:
My father, the last name is Choi, and [Jay Hong]. And my mother, her
maiden name is Lee, and [Yun Ho].
00:08:39
CLINE:
OK. And tell us then a little bit about your siblings, the ones that
survived.
00:09:14
CHOI:
Oh, my siblings -- yeah. My brother, he was born in 1939, he lives in
Tuscon right now. And he was really (inaudible), Chinese. But at that
time, Chinese was not popular, because China and South Korea were
hostile.
00:09:17
CLINE:
Yeah, you could say that.
00:12:39
CHOI:
So he did some kind of small business, and he has two boys and one
daughter. And he was a schoolteacher, and he is happy in Tuscon. And
another brother, he was born in 1948, yeah. Right now, he lives in
Seattle, and is in the laundry business. I invited him to come to
America. So he has two sons; they are not married yet, but -- the
laundry business is good; totally happy in Seattle. And another sister,
she was born in 1950, and married to (inaudible) doctor, a surgeon. And
so she has no son, but three daughters, all daughters.
They're grown up now, and they are happy. And the last sister, she was
born in 1954, and she was invited to America, so lives around here. And
she became a Christian minister, and is now working at a small church,
(inaudible). And she has four daughters, not boys. Her husband was kind
of bummed. (laughter) (inaudible). But my brother (inaudible). So it was
in the 50s, he became a deacon in the same chuch as his wife. They say
he's changed a lot, and so I expect something good. And those are my
siblings.
00:12:55
CLINE:
Wow, OK. So there's a lot of interesting material to talk about then. So
how old would you have been, then, when you went to Manchuria with the
family?
00:13:36
CHOI:
Oh, exactly, I do not remember. But maybe around 1940, so I was maybe
three, four years old. I remembered in Manchuria, (inaudible)
kindergarten, and I was in third grade. The world war -- the second --
was over, so we vacated from Manchuria to Korea. By that time I was nine
years old.
00:13:44
CLINE:
Right. So just -- not too long -- what do you remember about living in
Manchuria? What was that like?
00:14:30
CHOI:
Oh, Manchuria -- even though I am Korean, there was only a Japanese
school. Japanese children were attending, so my father negotiated
(inaudible), so there's no Korean school around there, and so I was
enrolled at that school. And all my friends were Japanese. Maybe I could
speak Japanese fluently at that time.
00:14:38
CLINE:
Wow. Which is kind of ironic, since most Koreans left Korea and went to
Manchuria to get away from the Japanese.
00:15:07
CHOI:
Yeah. Because my father worked in a coal miner company, the owner was
Japanese. So they hired Chinese laborers and Korean managers. My father
was a kind of manager.
00:15:10
CLINE:
So do you remember many other Korean people there?
00:16:31
CHOI:
Some, yeah. Some. Because (inaudible). And my father, he invited his own
brother, who was in Japan. So when I was -- 1945, my uncle and aunt and
my -- the uncle's family was -- niece and nephew, they all lived
together for awhile, when we came down to the hometown. Because my
father lost his own mother when he was 12 years old, and his brother was
7 years old. So these two youngsters grew up without (inaudible), a
tender mother.
00:16:33
CLINE:
Do you need to get the phone?
00:16:34
CHOI:
Can I interrupt?
00:16:57
CLINE:
OK, let me pause it. Take your microphone off.
00:17:05
CHOI:
Hello? I'm not going to answer the phone now
00:17:10
CLINE:
OK. Didn't get there fast enough?
00:17:36
CHOI:
Yeah. Maybe they can leave a message.
00:18:12
CLINE:
OK. We're back. You were talking about your father having to essentially
grow up without the parental love that -- yeah. So your father sounds
like a pretty tough guy then. (laughter) So you moved back to Korea with
the family; you were about nine years old then -- what do you remember
about your return to Korea? What was Korea like then?
00:22:53
CHOI:
I was a student; I went to school. (inaudible) a regular student. At that
time, we had to prepare the entrance examination to junior high. It was
a rural school, so to go to junior high, we had to go to the city, and
lots of competition. So we had to study hard and prepare for that.
Always study, study, study. That was 1949. And fortunately, I passed two
of the junior high schools in Taegu, and I chose one and attended there.
And at that time, my grandfather -- he married a young wife after my
grandmother passed away, and he had four, five children, with young
wives. So one of them is -- even though he is an uncle to me, only one
year older than me. (laughter) And his wife, two years older than my
mother. So we have some conflicts in our father's families and our
grandfather's families.
They stayed home, and not any education. But our father went to
Manchuria and (inaudible), some kind of civilized. And my mother told my
father, she cannot live with him. (inaudible) Not easy. So anyway, we
moved to Taegu eventually. They're always asking for financial help from
my father, because even though they are half-brothers to my father, my
father was very generous, and he did as they asked. Then my mother
married him. (laughter) And I was in high school and college in Seoul,
but none of my uncle's family, my grandfather's brother's line,
(inaudible) formal education. So I feel bad. Unfortunately, all of them
-- (inaudible) really older than me, he passed away. And one year
younger than me, he also passed away. And two or three years younger, he
passed away. And right now, none of them made it, no uncle lives.
00:22:59
CLINE:
Wow. And did they all stay basically in a rural sort of --
00:24:23
CHOI:
Well, now they're all spread, Korea is all industrialized. So they moved
out to cities. But still, we have a once a year family gathering to
visit our mortuary, the tomb, to go to my father and our ancestors
(inaudible). But I couldn't go there, so I was totally outside looking
in. So I feel guilty, because now I'm on my son's debt; all my ancestors
lived in Korea, and they are (inaudible), so I hear -- sometimes I
understand you want to go back. He's actually (inaudible), nobody --
00:24:45
CLINE:
So during your childhood, starting after you returned to Korea, you were
going to school, you said you got into this junior high school. What
were your interests, and what kind of activities do you remember
engaging in when you were a youngster?
00:25:38
CHOI:
You know, I'm -- not a talent student. Basically, the grade is good, but
so what? I did not have any particular subject I most like. I didn't.
But I know the music, and some kind of painting, and exercise -- I
didn't like it. I liked literatures, some of the foreign language kind
of a subject.
00:25:46
CLINE:
So do you remember engaging in any sports? Did you have a lot of
friends?
00:25:51
CHOI:
So even now, I'm not interested in sports. (laughter)
00:25:53
CLINE:
Well, that's OK.
00:26:05
CHOI:
(inaudible) The sports section, I throw it away.
00:26:14
CLINE:
Do you remember having friends in the neighborhood, things that you did
together with anyone?
00:26:55
CHOI:
At that time? Yes, I had close friends. It was my classmate in primary
school. He was one or two years senior than me. Now, he lives in Taegu,
doing -- herbalist. Do you know herbalist? Selling kind of -- yeah,
plants.
00:26:58
CLINE:
Herbal remedies.
00:27:39
CHOI:
(inaudible) doctors, yes. And he -- every year, sending me (inaudible),
and he just always does this. So whenever I go to Korea, I call him, and
visit him, and we meet together sometimes. Very close friends.
00:27:57
CLINE:
Now, you had a lot of siblings, a lot of kids in the house. Do you
remember what life was like in the house, in terms of different chores
or responsibilities everyone had, or what was expected of you as
children in the household?
00:29:44
CHOI:
In my family, I was the eldest brother, and in school, I was the good
student. And so whenever I had books, and in my study room, nobody
bothered me. But unfortunately, my young siblings (inaudible), and they
did a good job in schools, and (inaudible). But we didn't fight, and we
still have good relationships. But I feel also guilty, because they
expect something big, a big brother, but I am not -- 30 years old, I did
nothing for them. So if I were big financially, maybe I could give a
million dollars to them, invite them to America, give them tours, et
cetera et cetera.
00:29:55
CLINE:
Usuallly, there would be a fair amount of expectation or even pressure
put on the eldest son in the family. Did you feel much of that? What was
expected --
00:34:06
CHOI:
Yeah, I felt it. And I made myself (inaudible), feel that way. But I
felt. And one thing I have to tell you, I have an interest in our
situation of homeland in Korea, (inaudible) North Korea has big
problems. And I came to America in 1971; I immediately understood my
role could be the reconciliation of the North and the South Korea. As a
Korean living in America, I could visit both countries. And -- because
here, the South Koreans, they're very limited to visit North Korea. And
North Korea, they couldn't get any letter, any (inaudible), very poor
conditions for North Korean people. It's terrible, miserable things they
live. But I think guilty also. Nobody makes me guilty, but I feel -- I
make it. Because I've got nothing; what can I do? And so I just did --
1981, 25 years ago.
And so, with my naked eye, with the condition of North Korea,
(inaudible). So they isolate me, so I couldn't get a visa to visit South
Korea for many years. When my father passed away in America, I took his
remains to [Akimpo], but I couldn't get in. (laughter) So I (inaudible).
So that kind of thing, still generic Korean, they didn't understand,
because as you, American, cannot understand it, North Korea is so
bizarre or unlikely -- nobody likes that in their countries. I do not
like them, but I feel some kind of responsibility. What can we do? What
is the best solution? So when I realized (inaudible), they of course got
some kind of disadvantage living in Korea, because if I am their family
members, or government at that time, you know, watching other families
(inaudible).
00:34:44
CLINE:
So, yeah, we'll talk more about the whole North and South Korean
situation as we go along, and your travel to North Korea. I wanted to
ask you now, during this period when you were growing up in South Korea
-- this is obviously a very contentious time. I mean, there's a war that
goes on during your lifetime, during your youth. What do you remember
about living in Korea during the time when all this was happening? What
was that like?
00:40:53
CHOI:
I -- (inaudible) speaking, I pursued my own goals, and I didn't care, to
be honest. I wanted to be a full-time teaching staff in college, and I
liked to teach, especially the history of dentistry. When I was in the
first year of the (inaudible) school, a medical doctor, he came as a
lecturer, and taught us only medical history, not dental history. So I
thought, gee, in dental school, we should learn history also. So as I
grew up, I tried to be a teacher, and teach that kind of subject in
dental school. So I finished the master's degree, or even doctor's
degree, but that chance didn't come to me. The reason is that, you know,
credit. Medical history or dental history is a very, very small, minor
credit in the whole curriculum.
So a bigger department that has more power. So they didn't give many
chance -- I did not have any good background of professors to support
me, to recommend to be a full-time teaching staff. And I was
disappointed, my children growing up and my financial station was
terrible. So I decided this is not (inaudible), I could leave. Run away
to America. So I was very selfish; I had to come to America. Some of my
friends, they did a practice, and made money, and they didn't care about
teaching, academic studies like that. But I was some kind of -- I
declared the money-making practice would only (inaudible). So in the
meantime, I was three years in the Korean army; I served as a dental
surgeon.
And after that, (inaudible), so I understood that. And I was
(inaudible), came back to America, and he told me right now immigration
might be possible; you can go to America by immigration. So immediately
I applied, and fortunately, I came here, in 1971 I came to America. It
was 6 years I was in Korea, totally -- my father supported my financial
-- and I had my wife and my three children all dependent, financially,
to my father. So later, I felt ashamed, you know. What am I doing? I'm
grown up and still depend on my father, and didn't know how to be --
because without a full-time teaching staff, the income is very, very
limited. (inaudible) medical assistant, but in Korea, a part-time
lecturer, (inaudible). I couldn't make that living, and so --
00:41:04
CLINE:
Let me back up a bit here, before we get to that. First of all, how did
you get interested in dentistry, and when did that happen?
00:44:02
CHOI:
Oh, yes. It was high school years, and we had two choices. My father
wanted me to go medical school, because in Korea, always medical jobs,
profession, and stable. And they (inaudible). And I thought, gee, too
many medical doctors, or too many students going to medical school. But
if I go to dental school, maybe I can be more -- you know, the dental
position then -- and dental school was only four years; medical school
was six years. Two years pre-medical course; after that, advanced
medical school. So it was my mistake, and I decided to go to dental
school, and they were surprised. "Oh, we thought you were going to
medical school. How come you go to dental school?"
Because in Korea, dental school was not so popular. And some of the
brilliantest students would rather go to medical school than the dental
schools. But I chose dental school. And I later, in the paper, the
newspaper, my entrance score was top, so my high school teachers, they
understood -- "Oh, you made the top this time, in dental school." But in
dental school, I was -- even though I made (inaudible), top scores, the
(inaudible) techniques and other skills are not so good. So my academy
score is drop. But that's why I always, at the dental school, I hated to
become a so-called wet-finger practitioner.
00:44:05
CLINE:
(laughter) I haven't heard that one before. Wow.
00:45:14
CHOI:
Anybody pursuing money, they like that wet-finger practice. They're very
wise how to make the money, how to get it out from the pocket of the
patient, how to become rich. But I was so naive, you know? (inaudible)
dentistry. I thought that some kind of ethics, some history. It's a
problem, but you know, always the big power comes from the red-finger
practice. (inaudible)
00:45:43
CLINE:
And during your schooling and everything, to return to this question, was
there anything that you remember about having all this going on,
pursuing your life during wartime that you remember, were you ever --
did you ever have to take cover; were you relocated or evacuated ever?
Was anything going on that affected your life in any really obvious way
that you can recall?
00:46:42
CHOI:
No. The Korean War was started in 1950, and ended 1953. At that time, I
was in junior high school; I was under tense schools, and -- but after
that, 1953, I was in high school, and in 1955 in college in Seoul,
Korea. I was not affected directly to my life.
00:47:01
CLINE:
Because I was just wondering, since you were young, during your youth,
during those few years, if that affected you in any way, or if you
remembered being afraid, or if you saw soldiers coming or going --
anything that went on when you were a youngster.
00:49:02
CHOI:
Interesting thing was, when I was in junior high, first grade, 1950,
June, July, it was a hot summer. We were starting class, and the
American soldiers, they were all naked and in showers. (inaudible), in
the garden, and some kind of sink. So we -- it was an interesting scene.
(inaudible) and they, in the evening, played with Korean prostitutes,
Korean girls, many Korean girls -- and American GI, after this thing,
some kind of PS, they buy her lots of chocolate, whatever, American
food, (inaudible) girlfriend at the house, and she (inaudible), I think
some kind of chewing gum, chocolate. That I remember.
00:49:08
CLINE:
Wow. Was this the first time you had seen non-Asians in person?
00:50:14
CHOI:
No. Non-Asians we saw in Manchuria; at that time, the Russian army was
robbing even the rich aristocrat's watch. That was in 1945, when we came
down to from Manchuria to North Korea. Then we crossed 38th parallel at
that time, the Russian army prevented us to go down south. So we hid and
waited, the guard man was out, so we crossed it to the south. That was
very interesting.
00:50:16
CLINE:
How were you traveling?
00:50:19
CHOI:
Just walking it.
00:50:20
CLINE:
Walking, really?
00:50:34
CHOI:
Yeah. And when we came to the rail station, we got on the train.
00:50:47
CLINE:
I see. Interesting. So you were in class, and there were a bunch of
American soldiers bathing. There was like a window or something, you
could see in -- wow.
00:50:50
CHOI:
Yeah. The window was open, because it was hot.
00:50:55
CLINE:
-- because it was hot. (laughter) That's hilarious. Interesting.
00:50:58
CHOI:
They didn't care if we could see them or not.
00:51:57
CLINE:
Right, they're just kids, right? Fascinating. And you mentioned a little
bit earlier about sort of the charged atmosphere of suspicion, because
of the interest of the Communist and non-Communist factors in Korea that
were -- of course, the Korean conflict, and then eventually wound up
with the country being divided into North and South. Is there anything
else about that specifically that you remember, in terms of suspicion or
any kind of activity that you remember experiencing that was a result of
that suspicion?
00:56:55
CHOI:
At that time, we were young; (inaudible) at the moment. And the Communist
party doing this role. But later, I (inaudible) studying, I thought
about what the American government did during 1945 to 1950, five years
in South Korea. They didn't fully understand the South Korean mentality
or sentiment or history or background, and they had no definite plan how
to control South Korea. So some mistakes happened, the American
government, they made. For example, South Korean families had rice for
dinner, the main food source was rice, for South Korean. But
(inaudible), they said, "How come the Koreans leave only rice? They can
leave beef." Such a comment, you know?
And the American soldiers or military government hired lots of Korean
officials who were collaborating with the Japanese government before the
world war was over; that was another mistake, even though they have some
kind of know-how, the South Korean people didn't like the same guy
controlling them. Once they (inaudible) in Japanese, Koreans also hate
Japanese. But now they became part of American soldiers, and they
perceived being Communist things. So the same guy doing two kinds of
jobs. And before 1945, I remember seeing the so-called Korean
Independent Army. And after that, the Korean Communist agents. So
Koreans thought the real (inaudible) is not the (inaudible) or
American-supported government, but the real leader was Norse, because
they fight with the Japanese in the 1940s. That's all that I know. But
we didn't understand such things well; we were too young. But when we
were in college, slowly we learned, read books.
00:56:56
CLINE:
Interesting --
00:56:59
CHOI:
What time do we have now?
00:57:00
CLINE:
We've been going almost an hour.
00:57:02
CHOI:
An hour?
00:57:09
CLINE:
Yeah. How's your time? Do you have appointments today?
00:11:30 00:57:13
CHOI:
Today, can we stop around
00:57:16
CLINE:
Yeah, we can just do a few more minutes, OK?
00:57:25
CHOI:
Yeah, and maybe you can come often, if you want.
00:57:32
CLINE:
Next week, I'll -- I have to listen to this and make some follow-up
questions, so it may be about in a week, if that's good.
00:57:33
CHOI:
On Friday?
00:57:35
CLINE:
Would that work for you?
00:58:05
CHOI:
Yes, because my situation is that I'm not open, this office, every day.
Sunday through Thursday, I close, and Thursday, Friday, Saturday, open.
But Friday, only for you.
00:58:26
CLINE:
Oh, OK. (inaudible) All right. Well, we'll just go a little bit more
today, and then we'll schedule our next session. So it sounds like, as
you were getting through, coming out of high school, going into college,
during this period at some point, it sounds like you got married.
00:58:29
CHOI:
Oh, yes, I did.
00:58:33
CLINE:
When did you get married, and how did you meet your wife?
00:59:21
CHOI:
Oh, yes. I met the wife not as a wife -- at that time, big sisters,
while I was in college, and she was five years senior to me, and she was
helping a homeless orphanage as a teacher. And she was sleeping with
them as a -- some kind of manager, club manager. Don't you know the
proper English word?
00:59:22
CLINE:
(laughter) I'm sure, I do, but --
00:59:27
CHOI:
Some (inaudible) head.
00:59:32
CLINE:
I know what you mean, and I'm not coming up with it, sorry.
01:02:35
CHOI:
So I respected her, and she was also attending seminary school. So I
(inaudible) from 1956 and 57, 8, 9. And at that time, my mother was
sick, and she insisted on being -- "Before I die, I want to see my
(inaudible). Please marry." So my mother insisted. So many girls that
were (inaudible), but I couldn't marry with them, so I decided, to
father and mother, "I have this girl. If you allow me, I'm going to
marry her." Well, at that time, my father was very furious. "She is five
years senior to her, you are (inaudible), and it's a shame for our
family." I'm going to do that.
But I just insisted. So my father -- at that time, he lived in
(inaudible), and I lived in Seoul, and so (inaudible). And my father
said she may be too weak, and the housewife should be strong, so they
can bear good children. But then I insisted, and finally, my father told
me, "If you insist on your own way, you're not my son. Do whatever you
want to." And my mother told me, "You can marry." And so I married her
in 1959, I waited until I finished college, same year. So that was the
beginning of my new life.
01:02:40
CLINE:
How old were you then?
01:02:50
CHOI:
That was -- I was 23, and my wife was 28. So --
01:03:04
CLINE:
Yeah, that would be considered kind of old to be wife material at that
point, I'm sure. (laughter)
01:04:29
CHOI:
Now, thirty years later, maybe we can celebrate a golden anniversary.
Fifty years is too long. But anyway, in the meantime, we had one
daughter and two sons, and we're happy. And so my marriage life, even
though she is not an ideal wife to me, sometimes I want more, a
different type of talents from my wife, but anyway. She's not dangerous.
I'm not a danger to her. And so day by day, we (inaudible). But she has
a limited English understanding, and I want a more Americanized
style.
01:04:35
CLINE:
OK. And when you came to the United States, you brought her and your
whole family.
01:04:36
CHOI:
Yes.
01:04:47
CLINE:
OK, right. Well, we're going to talk about that in detail next time we
meet, OK? So does this seem like a good place to stop to you?
01:04:49
CHOI:
Oh, yes.
CLINE:
OK. It's almost 11:30.
01:04:51
CHOI:
OK.
01:04:54
CHOI:
You want (inaudible)?
CLINE:
Yeah, maybe when I'm taking this all down -- I'm going to turn this off,
and we'll officially conclude for today.
00:00:20
CLINE:
All right. Today is Friday, July 29, 2006. This is Alex Cline,
interviewing Dr. Jimmy Choi at his office in Los Angeles, and this is
session number two. Good morning.
00:00:24
CHOI:
Good morning. I told you 28th; you said 29th.
00:01:14
CLINE:
Oh, I did? 28th. See, I'm so tired today. 28th, today is the 28th.
Straightened it out and I didn't even get it right. OK, we're going to
follow up our first session with a few questions relating to that, and
then head into your immigration to the US. One of the questions that I
had -- you mentioned a couple of peripheral subjects that touched on
religion a little, one of them being that you have someone in your
family now who's in the Christian ministry. I wondered if during your
growing up, there was any particular religious focus or activity in your
family in Korea.
00:05:26
CHOI:
We grew up on Confucianism. And my father was the eldest son of our
family, and at least six times, we have a ceremony for our ancestors.
Great-grandfather or mother, or grandfather and mother, the father and
mother, et cetera. Every time it comes they passed away, we have a
memorial service in the Confucianist way at midnight. But I didn't like
that, so my father always blamed me. But I attended a church from my
high school days, because at that time, my mother's side grandma, she
was attending church, and always asked me to go to the church. So I
attended the church, baptized; that was 1953, maybe. And read the Bible,
and I like to be a Christian, but my father and mother, they didn't like
it.
And the reason is that the religion makes me more weak, not strong. The
religion is for older peoples, not for young. That was my parents --
especially my father insisted, he said, "Do whatever you want when you
are young." The man should be -- sometimes do a variety of activity, you
know? But if you already (inaudible) the church, and they emphasize only
do something good, then that's no good for the youngsters. (laughter)
That was my father's reason. And, well, I attend college, I met the girl
who was a seminary student, and later she became my wife. Anyway --
excuse me. And I grew up with Christianity, so I wanted sometimes to be
a seminary student also, specializing in the Bible study, you know? But
I didn't do that.
00:06:18
CLINE:
OK. And another thing I wondered about, since before you left Korea, you
were living there through the '60s, which was a very interesting decade,
in terms of culture, in terms of the sorts of activities going on in the
world, a lot of upheaval, a lot of change, a lot of heavy emergence of
popular culture that I'm sure got imported or exported throughout the
world. What do you remember about the '60s in Korea, in terms of the
culture that is happening, perhaps particularly in contrast to how it
may have been before the '60s?
00:15:10
CHOI:
'60s in Korea was my 20s, after graduation of my college. I finished
dental school in 59, and the next years, 1960, the South Korean
government collapsed, because at that time, [Shingman Lee] was the
President of South Korea, and he was part of a dictator, and the student
revolution uprisings, and the whole society, and in 1960, that
government was changed. Then, '61, a military coup happened in South
Korea, and [Pa Chung Hi], dictator general, governed the next 19 years,
South Korea. And so at that time, I was serving three years in the Army
as a dental surgeon and captain, so I discharged 1965, and then after
that, until I come to the United States in '71, I stayed in Seoul, tried
to get some position in my alma mater teaching staffs, and doing some
kind of part-time teachings. So the society at that time is rapidly
changing, because (inaudible) system was upside-down, and military
government, they said they are building a new society, and they
introduced some method from the Army systems.
That means the control, any problem, they always said there is a wrong
and a right, a wrong and a right; this is for good or this is for not
good. So -- and that military government set up North Korea as the prime
target of evils, and we haev to overcome that Communist idea. So the
South Korean dictator didn't allow any freedoms of speech or freedom of
publications in society. So I felt that that is no good; I didn't like
that. And I emphasized the so-called protesting class against the
dictator class, because most of the intelligentsia, they didn't like
that kind of military dictatorships. So in my mind, I wanted to escape
from this South Korea. And in the meantime, the corruption was rapidly
spreading over the society, because a new power group was emerging, the
military group, who had some kind of connection with that new group;
they get all the information and make money more fast than other people.
And they were emerging as a new bourgeoise, a new upper-middle class.
But it was unfortunate that I didn't have such good luck; I fell more in
the poors.
And at that time, the South Korea, they issued a project to divide up
the nation's highway systems, and they're making new highways from
(inaudible), and some already got the information, and the land, before
the government issued that project. And after that issue was known, the
price was tripled and immediately, they become rich and rich. Such
things happened in South Korea. The '60s in South Korea, for me, was not
happy, because financially I was very poor, and I couldn't get any fixed
positions, and so everything is unclear; I'm getting old, my children
are growing, and I lived in anxieties. How to live. And I felt ashamed.
So at the end of the '60s, I found a chance to process the immigration
to America, so I could come in '71, in March, in Los Angeles.
00:15:17
CLINE:
Right, which we're going to get into in detail. Hang on just a
second.
00:15:27
CHOI:
Yeah. Signatures? Yeah.
00:16:06
CLINE:
All right. Before I get into that, I wanted to ask you about your time
spent doing dentistry in the Army. I heard interesting -- some
interesting perspectives on this; I guess it can be quite the training
ground, to do dental work in the Army. What was your feeling about doing
that? Do you feel that it was beneficial? Did you find anything very
positive about it, or what was your feeling about your time spent doing
that?
00:19:10
CHOI:
Oh, I spent three years in the Army as a dental surgeon, but usually, I
served as a manager, or a leader, of a dental sect, a small unit in the
middle company. And as a practicioner, yes, I did some; not major
things, because usually in the Army, there are many different levels, in
the hospital, the Army hospital, and some (inaudible) arrange of
hospitals. But I served as a (inaudible) unit. So if serious things
happen, always we vacated to the bigger and the bigger hospitals. So my
job was very limited; doing simple things.
And presenting that as more (inaudible) units. And it didn't help me
any, clinically or whatever. But I was a captain; that is high rank, you
know? And so everybody salututes (laughter) and I had a Jeep, a car, so
whenever I drive, especially -- I cannot drive, the driver drives
everybody, respect the car. So I enjoyed three years in the rural area,
and weekends, I came to Seoul; the reason was that I had a class on
Saturday in Seoul, so I had to go back to teach. So weekends, I came to
Seoul.
00:19:29
CLINE:
And now, leading into your departure from Korea for the US, I wanted to
ask you: how much did you know about the United States before you
decided to relocate here?
00:20:22
CHOI:
Oh, you asked (inaudible) from my junior high period, always America was
a paradise to us. And especially, the Korean War, many Americans just --
they came to Korea, even though -- you may laugh -- the fishes -- do you
understand fishes? -- the dung -- was more nutritious than Korean
things. There's a saying like that.
00:20:23
CLINE:
Oh, really?
00:23:23
CHOI:
Yeah. Everything made in America is more high quality and better than
Korea. So food and the clothes and the cultures -- whatever. In America,
it's the best, or better. Got such ideas, without any criticisms. So I
wanted to speak English, and I wanted to go to America, and so I didn't
know what the other side of America is. But at that time, it was very
hard to go out of Korea, because the Korean government has a military
law prohibiting the youngsters going out without finishing their
military duty in Korea.
So firstly he should serve in the Army three years, then he could go out
to another foreigner -- foreign countries. But I attended school only,
so I didn't take the chance at the military service first. I postponed
it until I finished college. After college, I attended graduate school
also. So attending graduate school, I served three years of military
service. And so after that, now, I qualified to go out. So I tried to go
to America, but for me, it was very late.
00:23:28
CLINE:
Did you know anyone -- did you have any friends or family who had come
over here?
00:24:51
CHOI:
Not my own friends or families lived here, but fortunately, my wife, she
had a friend, Seminary friends, came already in Los Angeles, as early as
before, because they were -- one of them is without families there,
[Burgeons], so she was very easy to apply to go to America, and she
found some sponsors in Los Angeles, and she lived in Los Angeles. And
then some other friends also lived in Los Angeles. So my wife had some
information from them, the Los Angeles. That's why while I'm coming to
America, and the first place was Los Angeles, we landed here.
00:24:57
CLINE:
So I take it she also wanted to leave and come to the United States?
00:25:24
CHOI:
My wife, in the beginning -- very reluctant, because she couldn't speak
any English, so she worried about it. But I wanted her to go to America,
and she reluctantly allowed to move to America.
00:25:28
CLINE:
And by now, of course, you also have children --
00:25:32
CHOI:
Yes, at that time we had already three children.
00:25:45
CLINE:
So this is a major undertaking. What do you remember about your departure
from Korea and your trip over here, and coming here for the first
time?
00:25:47
CHOI:
I beg your pardon?
00:25:54
CLINE:
What do you remember about leaving Korea, getting ready to leave? What do
you remember about your trip?
00:25:58
CHOI:
Oh, remember. Oh, I see.
00:26:07
CLINE:
Yeah, your first taste of life in Los Angeles.
00:28:56
CHOI:
Yeah, it was large. We left Kimpo Airport in Seoul, and arrived -- how I
arrived first, because the airplane had some problems and some repair
job they needed -- how I was very warm. And then, several hours later,
then we changed airplanes, then arrived in Los Angeles at -- after
midnight, very dark times. And we phoned to the wife's friends; they
arrived to pick us up, so, the first day was starting in Los Angeles.
And my children were very delighted, and my youngest boy, he found the
bananas in the refrigerator, and he took, immediately, maybe five or six
bananas; he ate them.
(laughter) In Korea, it was a very expensive, exotic food. So one
banana, we could divide, and give the children, they share it. Food was
the first thing my children enjoyed, and the weather was nice. I was the
only member who could speak or understand English, and my wife and all
young children, they did not understand English, you know? So I was
teaching English to them, but eventually not. 30 years after, what
happened? I am the poorest English speaker. (laughter)
00:29:03
CLINE:
(laughter) Poorest. Well, they were young. How old were they, by the way,
at this point?
00:29:04
CHOI:
Right now?
00:29:05
CLINE:
No, when --
00:29:06
CHOI:
At that time?
00:29:07
CLINE:
Yeah, when you came --
00:31:40
CHOI:
Yeah, at that time, I was 36 and my daughter, she was ten, and my boy was
eight, and the youngest was six, like that, you know? So English was the
problem in the beginning. But they went to school, and they eventually
overcame the English, gradually. At that time, I had a conflict, though,
with my wife, because I told her, even though we are living in America,
we could not forget Korean history or Korean language, so we should keep
the Korean identity. So the Korean alphabet we have to teach to the
children.
But my wife opposed it, and she said, oh, leave them alone, because they
already have too much stress in learning English, and why do you put
another unnecessary stress to them to remember things Korean? So that
was an on and on dispute between my wife and me. Eventually, I gave up.
The result was, I'm still not happy, not satisfied, because even though
my daughter, she speaks Korean, but reading Korean alphabet is poor, and
my two boys, they do not speak Korean, they do not read Korean. So I
felt very ashamed, because I didn't do any good education at home, and
lost my fathership as Korean fathers.
00:31:46
CLINE:
And you said your wife doesn't speak English that well still; is that
true?
00:31:48
CHOI:
Yeah, still she does not speak well.
00:31:51
CLINE:
So how does she communicate with her boys?
00:32:09
CHOI:
Oh, yeah, and she speaks Korean to the boys, and the boys, they hear, and
they understand --
00:32:10
CLINE:
But they speak English?
00:32:56
CHOI:
They speak in English, and my wife, she understands English some, broken
English and whatever, and the communication that goes on between them --
but always I'm feeling some resentment. You see, for example, right now.
Here's a TV set; my wife always tried to watch Korean TV programs, and I
did not like that.
00:33:30
CLINE:
This is such a typical story in so many immigrant tales, though. So when
you first came here -- well, first let me ask: when you were traveling,
I'm assuming that it's likely that your children had never been on a big
airplane flight like that before or anything; this is was a big
adventure. What were the feelings surrounding this big relocation?
Leaving home, getting on a plane, flying to somewhere far away. What was
everybody;s mood?
00:33:55
CHOI:
They enjoyed it, you know? Just a big vacation for them; never they had
such a trip, airplanes, whatever, you know. Not hardships for them.
00:34:01
CLINE:
But you're leaving family and friends -- what was it like for you then,
and your wife?
00:36:51
CHOI:
Oh, I have family in Korea, but at that time, we -- what can I say? My
mother passed away already, and my father was the only parents I
concerned. But other -- a brother and a sister; they lived their own
life. But we didn't have such an intimate relationship within families,
so only my father told me, "Please don't go to America, please stay with
me." But I insisted, and he came to America. But my brother and sister,
they didn't care. And my friends, school friends, they admired, some,
because I had such an adventurous course. But they knew I was not in a
good position in Korea, so at that time, the immigration was not
welcomed in the upper class of South Koirea, so I was not proud of it,
to leave my country. If I were in a good position, if I were rich in
Korea, there's no reason to go or come to America. Most of them felt it
that way at that time, but later they changed their lot.
00:37:08
CLINE:
Yeah, and you had said that your father actually threatened to disown you
if you married you wife, and you did go ahead and marry your wife. It
doesn't sound like he disowned you; what happened?
00:37:56
CHOI:
Oh, he loved me anyway, because I was rebellious against him. And he
supported, after my marriage, every month he sent us living expense, and
he paid it. So he was very faithful to me, and so still, I feel so
grateful to him. He was generous, and I admire him.
00:37:59
CLINE:
So when you first came to Los Angeles, where did you live?
00:38:49
CHOI:
Oh, at that time, we had three children, so they suggested that renting
an apartment is no good, so maybe renting a house is a better idea. So
we drove here and there, and finally, we found one house on 17th Street,
near Arlington's. And we hired that, rented that house, and we enjoyed
that place for awhile.
00:38:58
CLINE:
What were you doing for income?
00:40:43
CHOI:
My income is nothing, you know? So the ministers, Korean ministers who
suggested to me, if you go to the Social Security office, you can apply
for some assistance from the government, you know? So I went with him to
the Social Security office, and he helped me to fill it out, and later,
we got food stamps. And that's good enough for just food from the
market, and my wife, she got a job immediately, because of her friends
attending some assembly company, and they took her, and gave her a job.
So she was attending there, and the children going to school. And I had
another job, but in the meantime, I went to some dental school, and the
teacher advised me, "Oh, you can have a job here," and I asked, "How?"
"(inaudible), they are hiring a busboy.
00:40:44
CLINE:
Oh, wow.
00:41:13
CHOI:
So I went there, and I worked as a busboy several months. At that time,
the first income was $2 an hour. Minimum expense was $1.60, something
like that. That was my first income in America.
00:41:24
CLINE:
Wow. And now your children are going to school, so they're evidently
having to learn English in the school.
00:41:24
CHOI:
Yes, yes.
00:41:39
CLINE:
What eventually happened -- clearly, you went into the dental practice at
some point, which I know requires -- you have to be licensed over here.
What happened? How did you manage to make that change?
00:44:22
CHOI:
Yeah, and as a dentist, in Korea, I'm not satisfied, so I didn't like the
wet-finger practitioners. So I always tried to run away from that part
of jobs. But when I came to America, some alumni from the same school in
Seoul, Korea, during school, was here already, and some of them were
attending the USC dental school, and they advised me, "Look, to get
dentists, here is the best way for you. So study to get into their
school first; then maybe your position could be settled."
So I followed their advise, and the USC dental school had, at that time,
international programs; whoever finished their education in foreign
countries, and after a test, they're accepted as a junior class student
in USC, and after two years, they give them USC degrees, the DDS, and
also gave the qualification to apply to the state for the exams, to take
the test. So I attended that USC dental school from '72 to '74, two
years. And eventually I passed, (inaudible) a license, and finished the
USC dental school in '74 or so. I worked as a dentist in California.
00:44:54
CLINE:
So during this time, then, you're going to USC; your wife is working;
your chlildren are going to school. What do you remember about the
Korean community in Los Angeles at that time, in terms of the people and
in terms of the various venues that were available for Koreans in Los
Angeles back then, during the '70s?
00:44:59
CHOI:
What is the key point? What are the main things you want to know?
00:45:26
CLINE:
Well, let's start with the people. You had friends of your wife's; you
were meeting people perhaps through your practice. How much interaction
did you have with other Koreans living in LA? Did you interact mostly
with Koreans, or did you interact also with non-Koreans, and what was
the Korean community like when you came here?
00:49:52
CHOI:
OK. The Koreans have some restaurants in (inaudible), and some grocery
stores, no Olympic bluebird. So immediately, the Koreans visiting the
Korean-owned stores. So they there get all kinds of information. The
church, the Korean church, and then Sunday, every Korean goes to some
Korean church, and so all informations, how to live in Los Angeles, they
get from church -- ministers with the church, I think. A job source, or
housing, or renting -- whatever, you know? So one job is better, or one
place is hiring some applicant, then all Koreans go in.
(laughter) And my case was the dentistry, and one or two students
already attending USC, and they were advertising what (inaudible) hired,
(inaudible) dental school in California. So we came from Korea without
any American educations, and studied hard to get into that USC dental
school first. And during weekdays, I am attending dental school, and the
weekend, going to church, and doing those kind of activities with other
Koreans who have a different occupation or different background. And so
the church was growing here and there, and we Koreans at that time, Los
Angeles was very rapidly growing, because new immigrants coming every
day from Korea, since 1965, maybe, the new immigration law was changed;
the quarter was increased.
So some ministers, their job was every day, going to the Los Angeles
airport to pick up or to meet new arrivals, so they were asking them, do
they have anybody waiting or know somebody; if they say no, then the
minister gives a ride or kind of helps, and then that person becomes his
congregation member. (laughter) Because he helps (inaudible) like
that.
00:50:27
CLINE:
So you said there were people at the church, they came from different
backgrounds, they have different occupations. What kind of people were
there attending at this point? Were there a lot of people like you who
had recently immigrated and who spoke Korean, or were there people who
maybe had been here longer, or economically, what are we talking about,
in terms of the kind of jobs that people are doing where they're at?
00:52:12
CHOI:
Yeah, when I went to church, most of them were the recently come, and
their financial background was not good. But they couldn't speak good
English, but they are willing to do anything to make money. So they have
some skills to live in new societies; who had the skills got promoted
more fast and making more monies, so he -- recruiting another of his
friends, doing the same thing, the same jobs. So different businesses
growing, and some who have talent in the business field, developing more
financial independence. I admire them. But I didn't have such business
skill.
00:52:21
CLINE:
And where would you think most of these people were that you knew were
living? What part of town were they living in at that point?
00:53:13
CHOI:
I was near Olympic Boulevard, between the Western and [La Bourmant]. So
typical Koreatowns. I was there. So I -- later I purchased a house at
14th Street. Only $20,000, and a big house. If I could keep that now,
maybe it would be more than half a million.
00:53:28
CLINE:
Well, it's a brick house; it may not still be standing if it got hit by
earthquakes. (laughter) So were most of these people living in the
Koreatown areas?
00:54:58
CHOI:
Yes, because they couldn't go out; their English is limited, and
(inaudible), the Los Angeles, the center of most of the first-generation
Koreans. This morning I read papers from New York and another state --
the first generation, the senior now, they're coming back to Los
Angeles, because Los Angeles is the best place to spend the rest of your
life. Because everything is convenient: the Korean restaurant and the
Korean church and the Korean -- whatever, you know? All Koreans living
in Koreatown, so their communication is easy, and they spend less
(inaudible). So the Koreans in Los Angeles; they are becoming a new
ethnic power. Already, they Wiltshire Boulevard, the buildings -- most
of them owned by Koreans. Did you hear that?
00:55:01
CLINE:
Yeah, I've heard that..
00:55:13
CHOI:
And this morning, I saw the paper; the Wiltshire and the Western, there
is a theatre, and cinema.
00:55:14
CLINE:
Right, the Wiltshire and (inaudible),
00:55:20
CHOI:
That building was sold to Koreans, did you know that?
00:55:31
CLINE:
I didn't know that it had just happened. I knew that the venue itself was
started a couple years ago, carrying the name [LG] (inaudible) --
00:55:34
CHOI:
Oh, yeah, [LG Wilton], yes.
00:55:36
CLINE:
So that pretty much tells the story.
00:55:47
CHOI:
Yeah, they stay here. (inaudible) $50 million.
00:56:25
CLINE:
That historical building. Yeah. So you essentially saw Koreatown go from
something small to something bigger and bigger. What do you remember
about the changes you started to see in the neighborhood, the increase
in Korean business? What kind of businesses and what kind of people do
you remember seeing there? Because this was of course largely a Latino
neighborhood before. What do you remember about the changes in the
neighborhood?
00:58:15
CHOI:
Small stores -- most Koreans, they do not have a good -- even though they
have a good education and background, they couldn't get any jobs from an
American company. So they prefer to start their own small business, even
small stores. So most Koreans, with a small investment, start very small
stores, pop and mom kind of stores, liquor stores, later developing some
clothing or Korean food restaurants. And all kinds of related to living
things, they are spreading fast in Koreatowns. And real estate brokers,
they're also selling and buying for the Koreans, and even (inaudible)
that Koreatowns were spreading (inaudible), yes.
00:58:19
CLINE:
Were most of these businesses then aimed at the Korean community?
00:58:19
CHOI:
Yes.
00:58:29
CLINE:
Do you remember much -- what do you remember about the interaction
between the Koreans and the non-Koreans in the neighborhood?
01:01:13
CHOI:
That is very poor, I think, because still, if you go to Koreatown, they
have signboards saying, "Only Korean." Only Koreans understand that kind
of letters: no English. That is no good. But recently, many suggested
that the Koreatown should be open to the non-Korean community, so they
could understand the nature of the business. So now, they express
English, the signboard. Slowly changing, yes.
And recently -- this, I don't like it, but anyway -- the nightlife --
many gangsters from Latinos, or some black -- they make troubles in
Koreatown, because the Koreans, they have karaoke, [anoray-bong], people
singing and drinking, even after midnight, they're doing business. So a
money-pursuing spirit, the Korean has some, like the Jewish people. Very
clever how to make money in America. But I worry about that ethic. Is it
good for the youngsters? Is that good for the American society, and for
other futures? And I doubt it. So we have to have some (inaudible) and
movement in Koreatown.
01:01:45
CLINE:
And this also leads to my next question, actually, in a way, which is: as
your children are growing up here, clearly they're growing up in a
different culture, speaking another language. What was that experience
like for you during all this time?
01:08:43
CHOI:
I'm now 70, and thinking of my three children in luxury, and I regret --
as a father, I didn't love them enough. So I didn't know how to be
father to them. Because when we became an American, I was struggling
with my own living, so sometimes, I thought that the children were the
burden to me. So instead of a loving care or hearing their problems, but
I didn't care enough, and I left alone. That, I regret. So now, the
youngest boy, he said, "Dad, I cannot become the good boy you think is
the Oriental way." He's totally Americanized. [Yupi] (inaudible) his own
happiness, and regardless of parents. And whatever I say, it's just,
"Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh," but he doesn't listen to me.
And I have no authority to say something to him, because he already
knows much, much better; whatever I say, he thinks it's not related to
him. He's in the computer business, doing computers. More than ten years
ago, he explained about the computer, the power of the computer, you
know? But still, I do not use computers. So I'm a very old, old,
stone-age man. So he thinks he knows; his daddy was already gone. And my
boy, another boy, the first boy -- he is a dentist, and living with
Japanese girls. I talked with him a few days ago, and he's a good boy to
me, because I told him my thoughts, and my ideas, and he's
listening.
And he loves me, and he wants me to live a happy life, and he helps me
whenever he could, that kind of a boy. And my daughter, she is busy with
her own life. She loves her mom better than me, so -- once, I heard, she
suggested to my wife, divorce me. So I was shocked at that time, why you
want or suggest such ideas to me. Still, I'm not clearly understanding
what they did at the end, mom and my daughter. A few years ago, I was
sick with pneumonia at the Kaiser hospital, I was hospitalized, and at
that time, my daughter came, and she confessed, "Daddy, I'm sorry; I
hate you. I didn't (inaudible) before, so forgive me," et cetera, et
cetera. So I heard that kind of a confession, and indeed, my mind goes
thorugh -- because when she was dating the boy -- right now, her husband
-- I didn't understand the dating of youngsters, so I yelled at it, and
I didn't like it, and we fought.
I had a lack of understanding the youth culture's school life, the
emotional development, et cetera et cetera, by already my fixed ideas.
That's why some lack of communications between my children and me, and
blocked the flow of love between the parents and the children. So that,
I regret.
01:09:38
CLINE:
So it was difficult then. What do you remember, if any -- if there were
any -- other than what you mentioned, the church, social security, food
stamps -- what sort of venues were there available during the '70s to
help the Korean immigrant who's arriving here? Now you have a lot of
non-profit organizations in place to help Korean immigrants, and to help
people with matters relating to their settling in the community. What do
you remember about any such service available during the '70s?
01:13:36
CHOI:
During the '70s -- I think the church was the source of informations, and
the ministers who could speak English, and he is in touch with the
social security, social workers, and they get some information in
spreading that way to get aid from the government. And I think the
social security was the main source of the help, the first immigrants at
that time. Even now, I think -- I don't know what other -- our
generation didn't have so much. The reason immigrants -- now, they are
rich, they are very rich, so they don't need any help from the
government. And another organization is senior clubs. In the Korean
community, there are maybe three or four senior clubs, and they are
putting information together on how to get into the city apartments, and
how to get the SSI or SSA or whatever.
So there are some problems. Even though they have enough money, they
hide the debt funds, and get the social security aid every month; they
get over $600, $700, and if a couple's together, they get over $1,200,
$1,300. And they live in cheap apartments, and they have extra money,
and they go to Las Vegas, and they enjoy that money. Very luxurious
living, and they're adverting to their friends in Korea -- "See? We are
living in paradise. Every month the US government sending is more than
$1,200, $1,300 money, and with that, we have such luxurious and
enjoyable living, but still, we have money left, and with that money,
the new year or whatever festival, give to the grandchildren as a gift."
Such a living, and many senior citizens in Los Angeles -- yeah. So yeah,
and this is the dark side (laughter); maybe you should not hear.
01:14:20
CLINE:
No, this is what we need to know. So in a way, too, of course, that
perpetuates a total illusion about what life here is really like. So
you're living in LA, your children are growing up, and at some point --
this I imagine, we're moving out of the 70s now -- but you get involved
in the Korean Resource Center after it becomes established, and I think
we're going to talk about that next time, the details.
01:14:22
CHOI:
Yes, that is 1980s.
01:15:02
CLINE:
Yeah, that's the 80s. But I wanted to ask you now, before we call it for
today -- living in Los Angeles in the '70s, as absorbed as you were in
your work and in raising your family, what do you remember about life in
Los Angeles at that point, and how much of Los Angeles did you see or
travel around outside of the Koreatown area during your time living here
during the 70s?
01:17:07
CHOI:
In the 70s and after I finished my dental schools, and from time to time
we went and traveled to a national park with the family -- the
Yosemites, that's the name -- and we enjoyed American life. And -- but
not another state with my children. But now, I think some of the time we
should have more traveling to another state or national parks, with the
family all together, you know? And the beautiful memory can be left
after we pass away. But that, I miss. And they were busy with their own
schedules, the children, you know? And I was -- my own schedule. When
they were growing up, we couldn't have time to spend together, but we
had to arrange it when the children was young. If the children were
grown up, they do not want to go together. And I lost the good
times.
01:17:20
CLINE:
But generally speaking, I mean, you were a full grown person when you
came here; you'd lived your whole life in Korea. What did you think of
Los Angeles? What was your impression?
01:17:46
CHOI:
Los Angeles was a good place for me, because everything's -- I was free.
I could speak English, and I could visit, and -- interesting, yeah. I
enjoyed my living here in Los Angeles.
01:18:01
CLINE:
Did you get around to different parts of town? I mean, clearly, USC,
Koreatown. Did you go to various places around the city?
01:18:44
CHOI:
In Los Angeles city, I didn't move around a lot. But proper Los Angeles,
(inaudible), or Santa Barbara, or San Bernadino, Las Vegas, and San
Diego. So I really moved around. So (inaudible) Los Angeles, but not
often.
01:19:10
CLINE:
And a lot of Koreans, of course, after getting a foothold here as quickly
as possible, moved to the suburbs, usual in pursuit of better schools.
Did you ever have any feelings about moving out of the city and out to
the suburbs somewhere? Did you ever have any goals like that?
01:20:09
CHOI:
That, I didn't have it. Because after I'd finished my dental schools, I
had jobs in Los Angeles, my children growing up in Los Angeles, so
there's no reason to move out to another city or another place, because
Los Angeles was the best place we could live. And when I purchased a
house in Glendale, we moved to Glendale. There, the children went to
Glendale High School, and they enjoyed Glendale, because
(inaudible).
01:20:11
CLINE:
Yeah, when was that?
01:20:25
CHOI:
Oh, it was 19 -- late 1970s and 1980s
01:20:27
CLINE:
So you did sort of move out to the suburbs.
01:20:28
CHOI:
Yes.
01:20:40
CLINE:
Then by then, there were probably a number of Koreans in Glendale. But
you kept your practice here in LA.
01:21:42
CHOI:
Oh, yes, I kept -- 30 years in LA. That was my failture as well, I think.
Because I -- location is in Los Angeles, but my clients or customers,
most of them were Armenians, not Koreans. This location is a little bit
north from the center of Koreatown, and still a little bit north. In the
center of Koreatown, there are many Korean dentist, crowded. So I didn't
like to compete with the youngsters there, but I couldn't make any good
money here.
01:21:56
CLINE:
Well, then, I think next time, we'll pick up with the end of the 70s, and
as we get into the 80s, your life in Glendale, your involvement with the
Korean Resource Center, and your travel to North Korea, OK?
01:21:56 01:22:00
CLINE:
OK.
All right. Thank you for this morning.
CHOI:
All right, thank you.
00:00:20
CLINE:
OK, it's running. Today is Friday, August 4, 2006. Once again, Alex Cline
is here, interviewing Dr. Jimmy Choi at his office in Los Angeles. Good
morning, Dr. Choi.
00:00:21
CHOI:
Hi, good morning, Alex.
00:02:12
CLINE:
Last time, we talked about your move from Korea to Los Angeles, your
location in Koreatown, the development of the businesses in the
community in Koreatown; we talked about the importance of the church in
providing aid and advice to immigrants coming into LA from Korea, and
about your family and your children's experience now, being
Korean-Americans living in LA, and you and your wife being Korean
parents to them; the challenges of that. I want to continue now with a
few followup questions before we move into the 80s and into the present
day in your life story.
One question I had; you talked about how many of the Korean people that
you met, in the church in particular, were more lower economic level
people; people who like you had immigrated from Korea, didn't know
English well, and were struggling to get a foothold here in Los Angeles
in the American world. I wondered how many people, how many of those
people, left Korea for political reasons, or if you knew perhaps what
the main reasons for them leaving were, since you talked about the
military dictatorship, that it was ruling Korea at that time, and how
that was certainly a motivating factor in leaving Korea. What was your
perception as to why these people were leaving Korea?
00:02:23
CHOI:
At that time, most of the people -- they came just for economical
reasons, I think not for political reasons.
00:02:24
CLINE:
Ah, OK.
00:07:51
CHOI:
They were a very few percept that didn't like that dictator in South
Korea, so they left. But I understand, most of them came to America just
for better living. So they had invitations from their relatives already
come to America. Some of them -- GI bride, (inaudible) GI stays in Korea
and they took Korean wives, and they married, and they came to America,
then this lady, she invites her whole family from Korea, you know? And
so they could live in America, much better condition, because they can
(inaudible) than in Korea. And their social level was a little lower
than in normal Korean society, but they have -- most of them, they
enjoyed American life from the beginning.
They could do any kind of work, because they have a little education,
but they are very hard, (inaudible), and they can get money by workings.
Yes, but my situation was a little bit different. I was
college-graduated, and I am very critical about the society and what's
going on in South Korea. But when I graduated USC dental school in 1974,
in Los Angeles, there were new organizations here that tried to restore
democracy in South Korea. The leader was [Kim Sun Dong]; he was mayor of
Seoul City in 1968, and his daughter and his son-in-law lived in
America, so anyway, he came to visit to America, but later he couldn't
go back to South Korea; he'd (inaudible) to come back.
So this Kim Sun Dong, he was a political leader, and he stayed in Los
Angeles, and he organized a small organization. But around here, mostly
seniors, (inaudible), but they recruited us, your generation. And I like
them, because they're much higher levels intelligentsia, and they're
always worried about the future of Korea, and thinking the dictator
should move out, so we should do something in America to help, with the
persecuting in South Korea because of their political opinions, of at
that time [Chang Chun Ha] was another very high active opposition leader
in South Korea. He was a publisher of the [Tsa Tsan Gai] monthly
[joiners], very active, but that dictator, he prosecuted him; finally he
was killed. So we organized also to help his children's financial --
because they couldn't get any jobs in South Korea, because of their
descent. So we organized that society also. And such movement was begun
in 1970 -- this happened in 1975. So I was a member -- (phone ringing)
--
00:07:58
CLINE:
We'll just let it go, OK.
00:14:44
CHOI:
I joined them, and so I had the same opinion, and I helped them whenever
they needed me, I helped. And at that time, whatever the leader was in
Canada, [Jim Jay Jun], he is a great Protestant minister, and he always
(inaudible) in Canada, but sometimes he came to Los Angeles, and talked
about (inaudible) to restore democracy in South Korea. And so --
(inaudible) woman in late 70s, by the time we left Los Angeles, and
finally I understood where (inaudible) a politician, because you can see
where South Korea and North Korea. Objectively, he asked if we could get
the information, and we (inaudible), so I wanted to see or understand
more in North Korea, because at that time, North Korea always said they
are living in paradise, and their propaganda is very excellent, you
know?
So whoever visited, and they came back and told them, told us, "Oh,
North Korea is a very beautiful country," or they are fine. But I was
not convinced of their reports. I want to see with my own eyes. And at
that time, in 1981, suddenly I heard they're accepting tourists, through
the newspaper that was published in Canada, the UK Times. So I was
surprised; how could I go? And I phoned that newspaper man, and they
said, "Oh, yes, you're interested?" "Yes, I am." "Then you can go
there." "I have no relatives." "It doesn't matter, you can go and stay
in North Korea for weeks." That's why I applied to visit North Korea.
And (inaudible) '81, and so I went to Beijing, and there I met a North
Korean ambassador, papers, and I got visas, and I finally went to
Pyongyang. At that time, our group was only four from America.
So (inaudible) and so we went to Pyongyang and (inaudible) and, oh,
(inaudible). And came back to Los Angeles, but I was very critical of
how it was in North Korea, because one morning, when I go out, we
(inaudible) the guide, and schoolchildren were praying, and their backs
were under the trees. And I was curious what they were eating, what kind
of food they were taking in the lunchbox. And so I ask one of the
children, "Can I see your lunchbox?" And he showed me. It was rice and
some (inaudible), and so I recognized (inaudible), the [padawan] gave me
a warning: "Don't do that. If you do that again, I might kick you out."
I came back, and we had some meeting, recording, and then my slide and
my impression of North Korea. But I told them the good side, and some
critical side, but not all of them, because at that time in Los Angeles,
the anti-North Korean movement was stalled, and --
00:14:47
CLINE:
Right, this where I wanted to go.
00:20:32
CHOI:
Yeah, and the (inaudible), they blamed the North Korean government. So I
couldn't join them, and also I couldn't give them some stuff they can
use. Anyway, I kept the [stone] in my hutch, but [Kim San Gon], the
ex-mayor, one night he invited me, "Dr. Choi, could you come to my
house, and just show you a slide again, and telling the insider story
frankly to me." (laughter) So I told him everything, and he (laughter),
and said, "Oh, you are an honest man. You are the first man I heard the
real situation on those Koreans." So I was glad.
Then at that time, you know [Yun Ham Bon] -- he is exiled from South
Korea, and secretly sailed over the Pacific Ocean, and landed in the
shallows. And this guy finally came down to Los Angeles, and we met him
around 1982. Then he suggested to do some kind of active, official
movement in overseeing -- to organize, some kind of organizations.
That's why we established [Min Jok Hak Byoy] in Korean. Later, in
English, it woudl be translated as "Korean Resource Center." That was
maybe 1983. [Min Jok] means "nation," or Korean people, and [Hak Byoy]
is "school."
Historically, that name is not new. When Korea was occupied by Japan in
1910 or before 1905, at that time, many Koreans, they couldn't resist
the influence of Japan, so they went across the border and went to
Manchuria. And in Manchuria, they established a school, and they
recruited young people and gave them Korean history and Korean language
and Korean spirit to fight against the Japanese invasion. And that is
Min Jok Hak Byoy, the nation of schooling. But they're scared
(inaudible). So we, in Los Angeles, we needed such a school, because
many Koreans living in Los Angeles, they are all brainwashed by the
American education, and the South Korean government view, not unified
total Korean view.
So we needed North Korea and South Korea as one unit and one country and
one history. So we had to establish again, not with an anti-Communist
eye, but with a unified Korean view, we have to review the past history
or past of the government, since 1945. And before that also, what
America did for Korea in the 20th century, and before that 19th century,
what America did for the Korea dynasty, we have to review history again
and again. So we need some kind of a building or some kind of a place to
meet together or study together, you know? That's why we rented a small
place and put the sign in Korean, Min Jok Hak Byoy, and we studied.
00:20:44
CLINE:
How did you meet this individual? I mean, he made it to Seattle, he came
down to LA; how did he begin to network with other like-minded Koreans
once he got here?
00:22:53
CHOI:
Yes, because this guy, [Yun Han Bone] -- Mr. Yun -- very younger than me;
he was born in 1948, but he already got all the information, who is
doing some kind of anti-South Korean government activities. And Kim San
Gon, the ex-mayor, also he was very generous, and he gave him
hospitality, because he invited, Mr. Yun, to his house, and allowed him
to stay with him several months. And through that, Mr. Kim, Mayor Kim,
because I was there often, and eventually got together, and he got some
information about me.
Because at that time, already I came from basically North Korea, and he
also saw my slide, and so he liked me. And this way, he later, when the
school was organized, he asked me, "Oh, Dr. Choi, you should be the
first (inaudible) chairman." So I said, "Oh, I have no such (inaudible),
so -- but I cannot do that." But he said -- he insisted. "(inaudible)
you, you become a chairman of the board members." So I was a chairman of
the board members. So I worked (inaudible), and I learned a lot. Because
when I was in school, we never heard about (inaudible) agreement. Do you
know that?
00:22:57
CLINE:
Yeah, I've heard of this, yeah.
00:25:17
CHOI:
(inaudible). But I was -- not for me at that time. And America betrayed
Korea, and Japan defied -- make (inaudible) easily, but America
(inaudible). And we can -- we started the education first, and then
eventually organized a young generation association. And he was
(inaudible) schools later, and there he also made a branch. And that's
-- young Korean united organization, in all of the states. Like New
York, Chicago, Philadelphia. And he (inaudible), and met there and
organized. So later, he could do kind of a national organization, and we
[shouted] against the dictator (inaudible). And when Kim [Day Joon] was
-- (inaudible). And very active, because they shouted, "Move (inaudible)
army from South Korea." And we made a placard, and most of the Koreans
said, "Oh, they're Communist groups."
00:25:28
CLINE:
Yeah. This is why -- you're walking right into my next question here.
What was the perception of what you were doing by the majority of the
Korean community here?
00:25:43
CHOI:
Yes. The majority of the community, they don't understand what the
(inaudible) end up doing, because they thought they are Communiist
--
00:25:44
CLINE:
Sympathizers?
00:26:51
CHOI:
Yeah, centers. Because Min Jok does not use often -- the word Min Jok.
But North Korea, they like it very much. So Min Jok Hak Byo, from the
name of the school, they [smell] North Korea. And also, Mr. Yun, they
didn't understand, you know, even though he said he came from South
Korea, escaping the [Chun Do Huan] persecution, and in the Los Angeles
area, people understood, no, no; how could he come without any
documentation over the Pacific Ocean and come to America? Maybe he was
planted by North Korean agents.
00:26:53
CLINE:
Suspicion.
00:27:35
CHOI:
Yeah, suspicious. And they accused him, yeah. And what they say is that
he is a radical, because Chun Do Huan is a popular in the American
Government, and we have to destroy the South Korean government, and we
should (inaudible) North Korea, and prepare for unification, et cetera.
At that time, it was very eye-opening, a new voice. But eventually, they
understoood that this is a Communist agent, so they didn't like
that.
00:28:36
CLINE:
Yeah, really. So what -- this is a big question, I know; maybe you can
give us a general answer. If you can summarize, perhaps, particularly
based on your travel to North Korea -- what is it that you think -- or
let's say, what was it, do you think, that was the incorrect perception,
the misperception, on the part of South Koreans, particularly those who
are now no longer in South Korea and who are now here -- what do you
think the misperceptions most commonly were about North Korea that
needed to be addressed? What did they need to know?
00:34:38
CHOI:
I'm not sure this is the correct answer or not, but I understood North
Korea as no freedom, there was no freedom, even though the government,
they broadcasted that all people were living in a paradise. But what I
understood and what I saw were the general people, the common people,
they're not enjoying their private freedoms. So always worrying
(inaudible), afraid of some authority. That kind of thing, I sensed in
North Korea. And some facilities, like the subway, was beautiful. At
that time, South Korea was known as a waste, and if I say North Korea
had a very beautiful subway, then they may put me in jail, because
(inaudible) North Korea.
So anyway, these two, the North and the South, the top political level
-- they maybe have some information. But the down, they totally let go
of correct information showing or allowing us to understand or know the
situation in North Korea. If we hear protesting from North Korea,
immediately a South Korean agent catches and puts them in jail, their
way of doing that, the North Korean agent, et cetera. So in South Korea,
they do not have correct information about North Korea, but in North
Korea, they have very skillful propaganda; they always overemphasize
doing something -- a fancy was to consider for South Koreans. And even
now -- just look at the South Korean labor movement leaders, you
know?
They visit North Korea, and they praise the North Korean leaders. They
just read through papers, you know? Idealogically, maybe they're
correct. All capitalists should be kicked out, and the labor, we have to
unite then to begin to build a better country than this one. Without
capital money, how can they build such a better country? Recently, the
car company, they made a big strike, and they couldn't export cars to
America because the laborers made the demonstration, and some kind of
sabotage. And they're making lots and lots of loss to the South Korean
economy. So still, South Korea is divided, and the left and the right
are still fighting.
But it is almost 25 years ago when I visited North Korea, even though
know, thousands and thousands of students or people from South Korea,
they visited South Korea, and after 19 -- no, 2000, June, I can get in
friends to visit North Korea, and (inaudible), and since then North
Korea and South Korea seemed to be getting along well, but now, you
know, everything is [crooked]. And even though Kim Jong Il was invited
to come to South Korea, he didn't keep that promise, and Kim didn't want
to go back to North Korea again, but they didn't allow to come again,
and they have these, North Korea, the big issue on the face of the
world.
00:34:41
CLINE:
Right, shooting off missiles.
00:34:43
CHOI:
Yeah.
00:35:02
CLINE:
Wow. So give me an idea of who some of the people were, and what kind of
people they were, who were involved in the Korean Resource Center when
it started? Who were some of the people like you who supported it, or
--
00:35:32
CHOI:
Yeah. In the beginning, we -- like Yun, Mr. Yun -- very much.
(inaudible), [Mr. Lily], was one of us, and another, [Hong Hu Huan],
have you heard of him? No, all right. Huan, Mr. Huan, is Yun's very
close friend.
00:35:36
CLINE:
Oh, oh, this was the minister? He was a minister?
00:36:10
CHOI:
Not minister. That was Minister Hong, but this guy is the same age as Mr.
Yun. And Mr. Yun met this -- his age group, Mr. Hong, because Hong's
mother was elder of Minister Hong's church. So (inaudible) Mr. Hong, you
know?
00:36:11
CLINE:
Right.
00:38:21
CHOI:
And so this Yun convered Hong -- he was a carpenter, you know, and a
(inaudible) teacher. And totally revolutioned the idea about the
Christianities. And so Huanmother, Mrs. Huan, was one of the church
elders, and didn't like this Yun, because her eldest son suddenly became
anti-Christian. And also the Minister Hong also didn't like Mr. Yun. But
Mr. Yun's idea is this: Christianity is some kind of idea going with --
making imperialism through all of the world. Whenever they would invade
the country, they're already saying, (inaudible), but later became
Americanized. Such a view that Mr. Yun had. And so his Huan easily
accepted his ideas, and became very close friends, and they're still --
he is a lawyer to Mr. Yun. Right now, Yun, after 12 years in America
went back to Korea, but he has physical problems; he is suffering from
eczema and emphysema, because he was --
00:38:22
CLINE:
A smoker --
00:39:00
CHOI:
Smoker, yeah; very, very heavy smoker. That made him an emphysema
patient. I think, yeah, he is (inaudible) in hometown, near hometown [of
Hanju], but not active now. (inaudible) fighting for his health.
00:39:29
CLINE:
So you've basically kind of said this already, but maybe more
specifically -- could you characterize the point of view of most
Korean-Americans then during this time? What was their -- I mean, you
made it clear that they were suspicious of you and thought you were
Communist sympathizers. What would be the standard political point of
view for most Korean-Americans, and most immigrants who had come during
the 70s and 80s?
00:44:02
CHOI:
They had almost the same understanding most South Koreans had, because
the South Korean government controls all the news medias, and basically
one way of news to the peoples. So they were educated as
anti-Communists, and so anti-Communist was the best way we survive, and
the Americans was the best country, so we have to follow, and
(inaudible) the Americans have during the Korean War, and so we have to
always keep the loyalty to the Americans. So they're simple, the South
Korean people; they are educated that way. So Americans are our best
friends, and we have to be loyal to Americans.
Also, we have to be loyal to South Korea, and we have to kill, or do our
best to remove, North Korea from our minds. But the big difference is
this: the Korean Resource Center, like me -- no, no; not that way. We,
Korean, North Korea, South Korea, is one Korea, and so we have to
embrace North Korea. So northern part, also our fatherland; the southern
part, also our fatherland. Anyway, near future, or a generation later,
we have to have one nation, one country, one history. To do that, we
have to have a corrected view and the right understanding, and what's
doing the Americans right now -- so we have to criticize the American
government, what it's doing for Korea.
It's very curious, even now, because Bush -- he didn't like North Korea
anyway, and he already criticized North Korea, and they tried to change
the leadership or change the political systems in North Korea. But the
South Korean government, they protest the war, (inaudible) Communist
government. Kim [Day Jo], and his next president (inaudible), are not
now here. These two presidents -- the South Korean people understand
that way. They are already too far to North Korea -- too close to North
Korea, incorporating North Korea too much. But a few years ago, the
South Korean people, they enjoyed or helped these two presidents, but
now -- it changed a lot.
And when I've seen newspaper -- even youngsters in South Korea now
criticizing these presidential governments, and the same (inaudible), so
they're changing. So in the 80s, when I was in [borat] -- yeah, more
typical sentiment, that line. North Korea should be down, and the South
Korean government is OK, and America doing good; we have to cooperate
with America, whatever the Americans do.
00:44:12
CLINE:
Right, right. So how did this affect your relationships in the Korean
community as a whole, personally?
00:48:53
CHOI:
Personally, I got very mad, in fact. Because even though I say nothing,
they regard me as dangerous, and so they do not approach to me. And even
though I'm here as a dentist, I think I got a lot lost because the
patients -- the rumors. "Don't go there; he's an ex-Communist." Like
that -- Communist. But for me, it doesn't matter, because still, I have
-- my way is not far from the correct ways, because we have to go the
right way, making America our good friends. And we are peacemakers, and
we have a good relationship, bridge or road, between Korea and America.
Not national interest -- national interests are worth fighting.
Americans are pursuing their own national interests too much. Then small
countries -- always sufferings, victimizing. That, I don't like it. At
that time, we have to shout, and give warning to our government. "Please
don't let them. Please don't do that." But our voices are too small; no
one hears. But I think it's -- and most Americans, they do not
understand Korea. So I think we are here as good ambassadors, Korean
ambassador, to let them understand the situation of Korea, Korean
history or Korean culture or background, whatever. And also, when we go
to Korea, we represent the Americans, the situation of the
Americans.
Because most friends in South Korea, they regard me as an American, not
a Korean, because 30 years later, everything changed. And I have the
same image of Korea 30 years before, but now, everything changes in
South Korea, you know? They adjusted, they live in a new environment. I
do not understand what they do. (laughter) So when I talk to say -- they
understand different ways. But anyway, my role is very limited, but my
-- ideally, ideally I want to be a peacemaker, and I want to be a good
bridgework between these Americans and Koreans. So this is my life. If I
pursue more (inaudible), or more activities -- writing or whatever I can
do, I do that. And I have children [tear against] the Korean things. And
they do not understand; they do not like to hear the things from me.
00:48:54
CLINE:
(laughter) Naturally.
00:50:28
CHOI:
Yes, (inaudible) me now. Because even my family, my grandson, my children
-- they do not want the Korea. Who else in America wants Korean things?
And the newspaper always creates the troublemakers. So that's not
correct; that's not the things that we want. If we have understanding,
every country becomes our good friends. So even Mexico and America,
Canada, America -- all over. America is very, very important positions,
even in the [revenue of Israel]. I think America is doing not our role
well. We should push more to Israel to stop that kind of massacres and
wars, and find out some peaceful way to coexist, and [make peace the
wars], but Bush is attacking people, our president. Even though he is
different from his father Bush.
00:50:41
CLINE:
Did you see, from your perception, a different way of handling, or a
different point of view, in previous American administrations, toward
the problem in North and South Korea?
00:51:49
CHOI:
Yeah. Carter's or Clinton's -- they tried to understand the situation of
North Korea, and do some kind of a dialogue. But this Bush government
has totally ignored or [flinched], and just -- Axis of Evil. And they
did not talk. So North Korea understands, it's not the time to talk with
the Americans, because this Bush should go out; two years or three years
later, he steps down, and a new administration forms, and that time,
maybe they're going to talk with America again; they're just awaiting
the time. So -- and everything at the time.
00:52:06
CLINE:
Yeah. You suggested a little while ago the impact of your point of view
on your family -- what was your family's take on your involvement in
this sort of political area? Were they sympathetic at all or not?
00:53:37
CHOI:
They understand what I'm doing, and they allow me -- "Oh, Dad, do
whatever you want to do;" they don't care. So I took my wife to North
Korea once, we went together, and suddenly, after she came back, she
became an anti-North Korea person. Before, she was sympathized --
sympathetic to North Korea, because she heard what I said, and she
understood -- maybe you misjudged it, or not -- saw the correct thing.
But I took her to North Korea, and stayed around two weeks, and we came
back, and after that -- very, very anti-North Korea. So we [three] see
and hear with their own eyes, our attitude or understanding could
change. But if they do not have such experience and conception --
00:54:10
CLINE:
Whoa. I think we'll have to take a break here. Let me start up again.
Before we were interrupted by that lovely sound, you were talking about
your wife's opinion after having traveled to North Korea with you, and
the importance of understanding based on personal experience, before
arriving at a point of view. She became anti-North Korean, you said.
00:56:33
CHOI:
Oh, yes. She saw some kind of -- inside the living of the people's, and
hypocrisy of the North Korean governments. What they say and the real
life of the people is totally different, and she saw by her naked eyes.
And when she talked with North Korean officials, they openly asked her
some kind of bribe, bribery. For example, the guy who did it asked, "Why
don't you bring some American cigarettes?" We couldn't understand such
things. How can you ask American cigarettes from us? My wife, she
protested. And they say, anti-America -- "America is evil," they're
shouting, "but still we like American cigarettes; we like to smoke
American cigarettes." They're hypocritical. My wife totally [agrees].
Even 30 years of [college dictator], and they couldn't change the brain.
It's such a [asynchrocies] she didn't understand.
00:56:36
CLINE:
How many times did you travel to North Korea?
00:58:44
CHOI:
I traveled, totally, [4]. In 1981, that was the first, and in 1989, that
was another one. And 1999 -- I tried to (inaudible) as members,
delegates, from some groups in America. So now, in this area, there are
many so-called pro-North Korean groups there at this time, so at times
to celebrate the [diversity] of their community in February, and the
[adversity] of Kim Il Song in April, and another celebration in June,
and another celebration in August, or whatever celebration in September.
All occasions from abroad, especially from America, some delegate, they
go over there and (inaudible). But they do have their [wars]
(inaudible).
00:59:11
CLINE:
(laughter) Wow. And eventually, though, you were able to travel to South
Korea again, despite your travels to North Korea. And you'd mentioned
that it had changed so much between the time that you left and the time
that you returned. How would you describe the changes that you've seen
in South Korea, having returned now?
01:02:47
CHOI:
South Korea is -- if I go there, and I see they enjoy some economic
[fronts]. But they have no brain, I think. They just think memories of
[managing good], (inaudible), much is good. And they despise not having
enough money on their terms. And they don't care to label; very
egoistic, very selfish. All people, all generations, all groups --
they're fighting each other for their own groups. They do not see as a
whole as a society or a whole country, especially the North and the
South, but don't care. Even in the South.
So every section, they are fighting each other for their small gains,
for their own interests. So I think that kind of country has no future,
even though South Korea, at least they enjoy economics, a very advanced
country. But spiritually, they were -- ethically-speaking, there is
corruption, too much corruption. Even churches, they're corrupt. And all
politicians, they think only of their own interests, nothing of the
future of the nation. So I am disappointed with South Korea.
But what can I do? I can do nothing. So even though I live in America, I
think that South Korea is my fatherland, and North Korea is also my
fatherland, but I was in South, because my hometown is in the South. But
North, there's too much left, too much left right now; South is too much
of a right, and they are fighting still each other, they do not
understand each other. And in the North, there's [a poverty line], in
the South there's too much. They have (inaudible), but they don't care
about it, helping people. So once more, I'm disappointed in South
Korea.
01:03:15
CLINE:
Yeah. And then how would you compare the changes in South Korea with the
newer arrivals and more recent generations of immigrants of Koreans to
Los Angeles, and how would you describe that impact on Los Angeles, on
Koreatown and the Korean community here, if any?
01:08:10
CHOI:
Right now, economically, the South Korean money, they're flowing the Los
Angeles, and they are building or purchasing high-rise buildings, and
developing and investing -- because when America opened the door, if you
had like $1 million to invest, in America, then our government, the
American government, allowed them to stay here on green visas, delay
their citizenships. So many rich people in South Korea, they come to Los
Angeles, and they invest, so eventually they can stay here. So right
now, Wiltshire Boulevard and Koreatown -- very, very rich people, they
meet together. And recently, I read papers -- the golf country, golf
club -- many Koreans, they purchased golf clubs all around the Southern
California area.
One of my alumni, high school alumni, younger than me, purchased two. So
they made it rich, and they're purchasing real estate. And they came to
Southern California like a second-home kind of careers. But, yeah, that
is good or bad? I don't know, again. [I got to watch.] But anyway, South
Korean, now a different problem, and North Korean refugees, they are
coming to Los Angeles also, and the North Koreans, they escaped North
Korea, and (inaudible) China, and through China, then coming to America;
the Bush allowed them. More ambitious people bribed, and they stay in
maybe [ellison pot], and in the future, more North Korean people are
coming to America, maybe.
And so Bush thinks they're destabilizing the North Korean society, and
so eventually, the government should collapse, because more and more
people are running away from the country and coming to America. But I
don't know if it is successful or not, but the future in the Los Angeles
area -- Koreans from North Korea and from South Korea, Koreans who were
born in America, you see? So different origins, mixing together and
creating, maybe, a new community, I don't know how they'll make it. But
in the beginning, some kind of [disharmonies].
Of course, the Koreans who had money who came from South Korea, who has
[basis] and some kind of connection with the South Korean government,
with the South Korean economy, upper-class -- they are dominating
everything, not just in those areas. Decision-making, whatever, you
know. But a small group, small percentage, a minority of Koreans, a
different idea, different origins -- and that's [always happy] with
that.
01:08:47
CLINE:
You left the LA area, Koreatown area, and throughout this period, through
the 80s, you were living in Glendale, which is outside of LA, to some
degree. And I would think is clearly a different sort of community, in
terms of how it relates to the Korean community in LA, certainly
Koreatown. What was it like living in Glendale after living closer to
Koreatown?
01:10:15
CHOI:
Yeah, Glendale is just a [bath town], in other words. We had a house in
Glendale, but our living, our activities -- everything is in Los
Angeles. Glendale is just a (inaudible) -- 20 minutes of driving. So
actually, even though I lived in Glendale, I didn't join with our
neighbors, who is not Korean. So especially, in Los Angeles, I don't
know the neighbors, so it's not such an inter-relationship like that.
But even though the Koreans, now, they are not very -- not unfriendly.
When we arrived in Los Angeles, we were very glad when we met a Korean
in the street; you would say hi, hello, how are you, da-da-da. Now, we
just ignore.
01:10:16
CLINE:
You just what?
01:13:34
CHOI:
Ignore. Too many Koreans. So -- but I, if I go mountain hiking, and I see
a non-Korean, I say hello or good morning; they respond hello, good
morning. They smile sometimes. But some Koreans, still -- they do not --
making any saluting. So maybe it's a poor social education, ethics. So
some Koreans are very uneducated. That's why some shop owners agree, in
the black community, they have some kind of progress. They do not greet,
they're not smiling tothe customers; they look at them suspiciously.
Shooting, killing, things happen. So Koreans, right now -- the first
generation Koreans, there are many problems (inaudible), because some of
them, they are not educated, aware, they're too much money-oriented.
They do whatever the money comes in on. That kind of Korean, I hate. I
don't like that. So I think this generation will go, then second
generation comes. But anyway, I met the old Korean generation, who came
in -- before the 1940s. They had a Korean community also; now they are
all over 70, so they are more seniors, and one by one, they are passing
away. But they have a different idea about the Korean. The first
pioneers who left Korea and lived in America, but they don't understand
the new Korean generation here. So many, many gifts. When you came to
America and they had their own different (inaudible), the upper, senior
(inaudible).
01:13:44
CLINE:
What kind of changes on the Korean community and on these relationships
do you think the 1992 uprising had? How would you describe the effect
that had?
01:13:49
CHOI:
(inaudible). The riot, you mean?
01:13:52
CLINE:
Yeah, in 1992, right.
01:15:08
CHOI:
Lots of change, yeah. So some of them, they understood, we have to live
together with other ethnic groups, the black peoples, they are a brother
also, and we have to live together. And so partially, things happened
because some church -- they took some [brotherly] interest in Korea, and
gave some good hospitality, they showed Korea, and they came back, and
they liked Korea very much, and they even -- you know, America,
sometimes they serve Korean food, (inaudible), and they liked it. And
recently, the Bush government -- now they're emphasizing learning
foreign language, like in Korea and China -- whatever. Give money to the
student. You know that?
01:15:09
CLINE:
No.
01:15:10
CHOI:
No? You should know that.
01:15:14
CLINE:
I obviously should know that, yeah.
01:16:07
CHOI:
Because now, Bush governments -- they understood. English is not enough.
So to understand the world, and so we have to educate the young
generation, who can speak other languages. So [gate-keeping] the
colleges. So many young (inaudible) student, they are proud to get the
scholarship, and after that, they're hired in the state department. So
that's a good idea, to promote the understanding of other cultures. Even
though America is popular, English is not enough.
01:16:48
CLINE:
In the wake of the '92 uprising, the Korean community responded by
forming a lot of new non-profit organizations aimed at providing aid and
services to the community. What kind of role do you think those were and
are playing, and what's your opinion on the kind of work that's going on
with some of these non-profit organizations aimed at helping the Korean
community and the Koreatown area?
01:19:20
CHOI:
That -- I'm not qualified to give you a good answer, because I have a
lack of information, and how that's [fund] the Korean community, to
coming out to helping their communities. But recently, I heard the big
church in the Korean community, they're donating huge money and
distributing to small groups who are helping the community, and other
ethnic communities also. That is going to change, because, for example,
[Yung Nak] Church is one of the biggest churches in the Korean
community, and the ministry changed, and the new minister came, and
after that the church policy will change a lot.
Because they have lots of types, offerings in the church, and before
they couldn't use that money. But now, that money is distributed for the
community. So that's one example. Another church also followed in that,
so slowly, slowly, the Koreans now, they're realizing this is the place
we have to live together, with each other. So black people, Latino
people, and we have to work together. And that's why right now, the
Korean Resource Center, the youngsters, they're cooperating with Latino
and black peoples, they have some kind of a shift, an inter-racial
issue, we are going out and starting together. That's good.
01:19:34
CLINE:
How did the change in the regime in South Korea awhile back affect the
focus of the activities of the Korean Resource Center?
01:20:55
CHOI:
No, they don't care about the Resource Center, because the Resource
Center, after Yun went home, we changed a lot. Because we don't care now
about North Korean or South Korean issues; only focusing on helping the
Korean community in America, and incorporating with neighbor
communities. So every time there was some kind of election issues comes
up, some kind of environmental issue -- whatever, you know -- if we're
going to [misrepresent] the youngsters, they don't really get involved
in such a movement. So the Korea community now no longer thinks
(inaudible) Communist; changed a lot. And recently, the director of the
Korean community and the Korean Resource Center, Mr. -- he's also Yun --
some kind of work -- small reward from [KCT].
01:20:58
CLINE:
Oh, really? Wow.
01:21:37
CHOI:
Because, you know, the KCT, the broadcasting company, they gave him
(inaudible) award. So even a big newspaper in Koreatown, they always
give space on the Korean [missile] centers, and -- excuse me. So many
changes happen.
01:21:41
CLINE:
Yeah, a change in perception for sure.
01:22:32
CHOI:
But now, new groups, pro-North Korean, new groups emerged after the 2000
-- June 15 -- so they are now actively moving -- so called negotiation
jobs in North Korea, in America. And they recently, the heads -- their
leaders, [Sonu Haga, Harold Sonu] -- have you heard about this?
01:22:35
CLINE:
No.
01:22:53
CHOI:
He is a big guy, and he was born in 1918, and he was a minister --- not
minister, a professor [for Missouri]. He loved American books, and now
he is 88 years old.
01:22:55
CLINE:
What's his name again?
01:22:58
CHOI:
Harold [Harrogan, Sonu].
01:23:01
CLINE:
Oh, OK. H. Cooke Sonu, this is the same guy?
01:24:42
CHOI:
Yeah. His father. And he made a Korea peace fund. And $25,000 fund, he
donated. So we had the first fund (inaudible), whatever. And there are
groups. Because Sonu, Dr. Sonu, he received one of the greatest honors
from North Korea, also he reached South Korea, and got the reception
from the South Korean president. So he is recognized from both
governments, South Korea, North Korea. Their postions looks good; that
Korean Resource Center of (inaudible), because in the Korean Resource
Center, they don't care about such a political issue now; they're doing
the American issues, protecting the right of the poor peoples. Human
rights. So, yeah, doing such things for the Korean resource center.
01:25:05
CLINE:
Yeah, maybe -- I don't know how much knowledge you have of this -- but
who are the people, particularly the youth, I guess, nowadays, who are
frequenting the Korean Resource Center, and taking advantage of its
activities? What kind of people are going there?
01:25:23
CHOI:
I think the young generations, yeah. Right now, the director, Yun, and
his wife is [Li Han Su]. And she has another organization,
[Nakasak].
01:25:25
CLINE:
Nakasak, uh-huh.
01:27:57
CHOI:
And like I said, a national organization. So they both shared the
information together, and working together, and organizing their young
generations. They have some kind of volunteers coming to the resource
centers, and she's (inaudible). And maybe you have to hear -- not that
(inaudible), home. Lady home. She was once Nagasak executive director;
recently, she met Bush President also, and got selected as one of the
Asian ladies in the New York area -- anything like that -- because she
organized so many people, immigration, a demonstration against the Bush
government.
We related before, when she was here. So in words -- in one words --
this Yun Han Bon, that came to America in 1981 or '82, and even though
he left 12 years later, he did a good job, and left a good effect on the
Korean community in America, for the young generation, not the old
generation. And even though some of the old generation like me was
cooperating with him, but not interested (inaudible), because their head
was already so hard, understanding (inaudible).
01:28:57
CLINE:
Wow. Yeah. So now this leads me into sort of the big questions. First of
all, this is -- there are two big questions here. One is, where do you
see the Korean community in Los Angeles going? You've mentioned this
influx of affluence, of money, into Koreatown from South Korea, from
wealthier South Koreans. There's certainly a younger generation; there
are a lot of now American-born Koreans, Korean-Americans who have grown
up in the United States with American values, and we still have a
divided Korea, North and South. Where do you see -- first the
Korean-American community in Los Angeles going?
01:30:11
CHOI:
But still, the Korean community in Los Angeles is dominated by the South
Korean, wealthy Koreans, who live in this area. They [leader] at this
moment, but the young generation was born in America, they do not follow
then 100%, I think; still some gap. So second-generation Koreans,
they're too much Americanized. So they have their own ideas about the
Korean community. Did you hear, 1.5 generation?
01:30:15
CLINE:
Yeah, it's 1.5 generation, yeah.
01:31:49
CHOI:
Do we -- I am the first generation, but my youngsters, children who
brought (inaudible) America, they are 1.5 generation, generation gap
already there. And second generation, another generation gap. So this
second, third relations now -- I don't know. Most of them are
Americanized. So even right now, the first generation Koreans try to
influence them, Korean culture, Korean value systems, to their
grandchildren, but I think they are not successful. But still, some
young generations are smart; they inherited Korean culture and Korean
values [rapidly], so they're hope for the Korean and the American
societies. And with the (inaudible) ceremony, seasons, maybe young
Korean students -- good scholarship, [validations -- valedicton] --
01:31:51
CLINE:
Yeah, valedictorian, yeah.
01:32:51
CHOI:
Yeah, valedictorian. I heard them, and they would go to Harvard or
(inaudible), many [percent], they would go there. So Korea is smart, if
I say so. But anyway, we can hope that the right way for the peaceful
coexistence (inaudible). That is my dream, because we have to preserve
this one earth, and we have to live together happily, peacefully, and
for the future generation also, considering each other.
01:33:24
CLINE:
And clearly, as a parent yourself, you have to understand the role of
parents in all this. What other sorts of forces or entities in the
community do you think will be the most influential in shaping the
values and the point of view of the younger generation of Koreans as
they grow up here in this country?
01:34:39
CHOI:
Maybe social change. Most Koreans, most youngsters just follow the change
of the societies. But I expect some philosopher or some thinking, some
critical leaders, but they are not popular anyway. So I don't know. This
generation -- [where to go]. This is not only for the Korean community;
the whole American society also -- where this America goes. The
Bush-style American -- we don't like it. So young American -- what they
think about. How do they build a new kind of an America? So let's see
what the next generation brings?
01:34:51
CLINE:
Right. The Korean community is still perceived, anyway, as being very
much centered in the church. How much of a role do you think the church
might play in this?
01:36:04
CHOI:
Yes. Church -- they have problems. Because most first-generation -- they
go and donate, offering the church life they enjoy. But second, third
generation -- they are not so eager to go to Korean church. And even
though they go to church, they do not speak Korean, and so
English-speaking church is developing, or a new program for the English
-- yes, now, one by one, they're establishing for the second
generations. So the number has decreased. So in the future -- right now,
several hundred Korean children around the Los Angeles area, but they
all may be gone (inaudible) later. So the church role, yes -- I'm not
optimistic.
01:36:07
CLINE:
And what about --
01:37:05
CHOI:
Because the [universal], you go to the universal, and the church is just
empty. America, also -- Caucasians' church -- empty. So the new Korean
first generation, they're purchasing (inaudible), but alone. Even now,
they're there, but one decade later, who knows what happens? So
Christianity is declining; the church role also may be not good enough.
But some say, no, no, not that way. Some churches are growing, the big
church, influencing church, big, big, big church -- they're growing. So
they will stay.
01:37:34
CLINE:
And what about Koreatown? Where do you think Koreatown is headed, now
that it has new money flowing in and still, of course, despite the
Korean business here, fewer Koreans perhaps living in the area, as most
of the people with the money don't live in Koreatown, of course; they
live out in other areas surrounding Los Angeles -- what do you think the
future is?
01:38:47
CHOI:
Yes, Koreatown -- maybe business centers. But wealthy Koreans, they could
purchase more nice, expensive houses in the suburbs, so they do not live
in Koreatown. But recently, the new trend is -- new condominiums, new
apartments are high-rising buildings, renting in Koreatown. Because
maybe Koreans, now seniors who live in another state, they're coming
back to Los Angeles, because they heard Koreatown, Los Angeles
especially -- very nice place, because everything is convenient. Market
and the church and they do not worry about getting along driving. So
they're flocking together to the new Koreatown. So that is the new
trend.
01:38:50
CLINE:
So you expect that we'll see more older Koreans moving --
01:38:51
CHOI:
Yeah, more Koreans --
01:38:52
CLINE:
-- moving into the area?
01:38:54
CHOI:
-- moving in, yeah.
01:39:02
CLINE:
And how do you think they'll get along with the poorer non-Koreans who
are living in the area? Do you think it will matter?
01:39:36
CHOI:
I think they do not live well with non-Korean peoples, because the
wealthy old Koreans, they do not speak foreign languages, and they do
not have any interest in exchanging their cultures, because already they
have their own things they enjoy. Family and friends, that's enough for
them.
01:39:37
CLINE:
That's enough, right.
01:39:44
CHOI:
So once they all pass away -- no one cares. (laughter)
01:39:51
CLINE:
(laughter) So you came to this country in your 30s, and you --
01:39:53
CHOI:
Not 30s.
01:39:54
CLINE:
Well, you were 36 --
01:39:55
CHOI:
Oh, yes, my age was 36.
01:40:03
CLINE:
Yes, you were 36. And so you've roughly lived half your life in Korea and
half your life here in the United States.
01:40:07
CHOI:
Exactly.
01:40:14
CLINE:
What do you think it means to be Korean-American, or Korean and
American?
01:41:33
CHOI:
Now, I am very happy, because it is my [ability], because as you'll see,
my health is not so good, but I'm not 70 years old, so God gave me 70
[with his grace], and during the 35 years in America, my children are
all grown up, and they had a good education, and now they have good
jobs, and they're living their own ways. And my grandchildren are
growing -- so nothing to complain. So God was good to me -- God is good
to me. So to everybody, God should be good. But you know, some tragedy
or some misfortunes around, neighbor, I will sympathize with them, but
for me, it is good, and I am very satisfied with that.
01:42:18
CLINE:
And being both Korean and American, one of the things I hear, for
example, particularly since you've traveled back to Korea, is not only
seeing the changes in Korea, but the ways in which one has changed being
a citizen of the United States during the interim period. How can you
define yourself at this point? Would you consider yourself Korean,
Korean-American, more Korean, more American? Is there a difference; is
it all kind of just one unified whole? How do you perceive your identity
at this point?
01:43:12
CHOI:
Well, legally, I am an American citizen. But in my mind, I am one, North
and South combined, Korean. So that fatherland gave me my (inaudible).
And so my father and mother, all ancestors now -- and that (inaudible).
So -- and I think my graveyard is in Glendale. But I told my children --
burning the body, how do you say it?
01:43:14
CLINE:
Burying? When you bury --
01:43:15
CHOI:
Burning.
01:43:16
CLINE:
Oh, burning. Cremating.
01:43:45
CHOI:
Cremating, yeah. Cremate my body, whatever. Just get it all over the
world. My spirit wants to be a free man, and [reverse] (inaudible). Even
though I died in America, my spirit should move around all over the
world.
01:43:55
CLINE:
And what do you think -- what do you see the future for reunification
between North and South Korea at this point?
01:44:58
CHOI:
Maybe someday, North Korea will collapse. And I do not expect it in the
near future, but anyway, that system should not stay. And then, we have
to build a new Korea, that's the main task for the Korean peoples. So
America and Russia and China and Japan -- their interests are related to
the Northern part also. And so they do not allow only South Korea handle
North Korea. So even though South Korea claims North Korea is our
country, I think the neighbor, big brother, say, "No, no, no!" That's
probably -- their own interests.
01:45:14
CLINE:
And what of the South Koreans confronting now having to deal with the
North Koreans, whose situation is so much different?
01:45:16
CHOI:
Poor, yeah, very poor.
01:45:24
CLINE:
What do you think will happen there? We've seen what happened with
Eastern and Western Germany, for example; I was just curious, what do
you think might happen?
01:46:44
CHOI:
Eastern and Western Germany -- they are very lucky, because Western
Germany had [a lot of] East Germany, before they bring such (inaudible).
But right now, even now, North Korean people, they do not understand the
station of South Korea, because lack of communication. East Germans,
they watched TV, regular broadcasting from the west freely; they
understood what was going on in West Germany. But Korean stations are
totally -- North Korean people, they never can understand what's going
on beyond free TV channels, because everything is fixed; the government
is showing only video that South Korea, adapting from broadcasting, so
they do not understand what's going on in South Korea or in other
countries.
01:46:47
CLINE:
Right, anywhere else. Isolated.
01:46:58
CHOI:
Totally isolated; they have no telephone, no email. So that's
(inaudible).
01:46:59
CLINE:
A real challenge.
01:47:09
CHOI:
Yeah, a real challenge. So that kind of society should go.
01:47:14
CLINE:
OK. Well, I think I'm out of questions.
01:47:15
CHOI:
What time is it now?
01:47:17
CLINE:
It's a little after 12:00?
01:47:17
CHOI:
Oh, yeah?
01:47:34
CLINE:
Yeah, this was a longer session today. So on behalf of UCLA and the
Center for Oral History Research at the library there, thank you very
much for talking with us, and participating in this series of interviews
about the Korean community here in LA.
01:47:50
CHOI:
Thank you very much; you allowed me to talk to you and you heard my
story. So this is my honor, and I'm glad; I'm very pleased. Thank you,
Alex.
01:47:56
CLINE:
All right, thank you very much. And we'll continue to be in touch as the
processing moves forward.
01:47:57
CHOI:
OK, yeah.
CLINE:
All right.