Interview of Jimmy Choi
UCLA Library, Center for Oral History Research, University of California, Los Angeles Interview of Jimmy Choi

Transcript

Session 1 (July 21, 2006)



00:00:20

CLINE:

-- we go. OK. This is Alex Cline, I'm interviewing Dr. Jimmy Choi. Today is July 21, 2006, and the interview is taking place in his office in Los Angeles. Actually, it's close to Hollywood. Good morning, Dr. Choi.



00:00:23

CHOI:

Good morning, Alex.



00:00:40

CLINE:

Thank you very much for sitting down to talk with me. As I already described to you, we always start at the beginning with these interviews, so that's what I'm going to do. My first question to you is, where are when were you born?



00:01:12

CHOI:

I was born in 1936, on June 19, in Korea. Right now, my hometown is located in South Korea, near Taegu, but (inaudible) that I was born.



00:01:15

CLINE:

And how many were in your family? How many children?



00:01:38

CHOI:

I was the first son, and I have two brothers and two sisters. But I remember the two girls, (inaudible) they were young.



00:01:44

CLINE:

Oh, really. Wow. And do you remember how old you were when they passed away?



00:01:59

CHOI:

Oh, one daughter, she was under six, and another daughter was maybe one or two.



00:02:04

CLINE:

You were clearly old enough to remember this, then. Do you remember the cause?



00:02:22

CHOI:

They say some -- (inaudible) -- medicine, overdoses, some kind of narcotive.



00:02:26

CLINE:

Really? Whoa. Both of them?



00:02:43

CHOI:

One, the big one. But younger sister, maybe -- I'm not sure, but maybe she was related (inaudible).



00:02:48

CLINE:

And what do you remember about your parents? Who was your father, and what did he do?



00:03:35

CHOI:

My father was born in 1914. He was educated in primary school, but he couldn't finish even six years. Even though his education was very limited, he was very ambitious. His father wanted him to stay at home doing the farmer's job, but my father ran away.



00:03:36

CLINE:

He had other ideas.



00:08:10

CHOI:

Yeah. He went to Manchuria. He cultivated his own way. And so in 1945, the (inaudible), our whole family was in Manchuria. And after that, he came back to our hometown, and we just sold agricultures, because (inaudible), he purchased some land. But unfortunately, at that time and during 1945, 1950, South Korea was politically very unstable, because the Communist agent -- they imitated the life, and my father was (inaudible), and then he was (inaudible), ran away to the city, to Taegu. After that, he went to [Poson]. In 1950, we were in Poson, and he had a small shop, a market. And (inaudible), and he did his best to educate our siblings, and I admire him very much, I love him, and he was very strong. All family members love him.

But when I came to America, he insisted, "Don't go to America. I will support you until you die in Korea. Don't go to America." At that time, I was also ambitious to taste a new life. So I did, I came to America. And that was 1971. And later, he came also to America, and stayed with us three years, and passed away. And so I brought his body to our homeland, and (inaudible). It was 1993. But my mother was the same age, a very kind, loving lady; I love her very much. (inaudible) her husband. Unfortunately, she had some disease after my (inaudible) youngest sister was born, and then after that, she passed away before 50. So it was 1963, exactly. So we miss her very much. And after that, my father (inaudible), to be alone is not so good. And he came to America, he married his wife, but she also died here. So these are my parents.



00:08:12

CLINE:

And what were their names?



00:08:30

CHOI:

My father, the last name is Choi, and [Jay Hong]. And my mother, her maiden name is Lee, and [Yun Ho].



00:08:39

CLINE:

OK. And tell us then a little bit about your siblings, the ones that survived.



00:09:14

CHOI:

Oh, my siblings -- yeah. My brother, he was born in 1939, he lives in Tuscon right now. And he was really (inaudible), Chinese. But at that time, Chinese was not popular, because China and South Korea were hostile.



00:09:17

CLINE:

Yeah, you could say that.



00:12:39

CHOI:

So he did some kind of small business, and he has two boys and one daughter. And he was a schoolteacher, and he is happy in Tuscon. And another brother, he was born in 1948, yeah. Right now, he lives in Seattle, and is in the laundry business. I invited him to come to America. So he has two sons; they are not married yet, but -- the laundry business is good; totally happy in Seattle. And another sister, she was born in 1950, and married to (inaudible) doctor, a surgeon. And so she has no son, but three daughters, all daughters.

They're grown up now, and they are happy. And the last sister, she was born in 1954, and she was invited to America, so lives around here. And she became a Christian minister, and is now working at a small church, (inaudible). And she has four daughters, not boys. Her husband was kind of bummed. (laughter) (inaudible). But my brother (inaudible). So it was in the 50s, he became a deacon in the same chuch as his wife. They say he's changed a lot, and so I expect something good. And those are my siblings.



00:12:55

CLINE:

Wow, OK. So there's a lot of interesting material to talk about then. So how old would you have been, then, when you went to Manchuria with the family?



00:13:36

CHOI:

Oh, exactly, I do not remember. But maybe around 1940, so I was maybe three, four years old. I remembered in Manchuria, (inaudible) kindergarten, and I was in third grade. The world war -- the second -- was over, so we vacated from Manchuria to Korea. By that time I was nine years old.



00:13:44

CLINE:

Right. So just -- not too long -- what do you remember about living in Manchuria? What was that like?



00:14:30

CHOI:

Oh, Manchuria -- even though I am Korean, there was only a Japanese school. Japanese children were attending, so my father negotiated (inaudible), so there's no Korean school around there, and so I was enrolled at that school. And all my friends were Japanese. Maybe I could speak Japanese fluently at that time.



00:14:38

CLINE:

Wow. Which is kind of ironic, since most Koreans left Korea and went to Manchuria to get away from the Japanese.



00:15:07

CHOI:

Yeah. Because my father worked in a coal miner company, the owner was Japanese. So they hired Chinese laborers and Korean managers. My father was a kind of manager.



00:15:10

CLINE:

So do you remember many other Korean people there?



00:16:31

CHOI:

Some, yeah. Some. Because (inaudible). And my father, he invited his own brother, who was in Japan. So when I was -- 1945, my uncle and aunt and my -- the uncle's family was -- niece and nephew, they all lived together for awhile, when we came down to the hometown. Because my father lost his own mother when he was 12 years old, and his brother was 7 years old. So these two youngsters grew up without (inaudible), a tender mother.



00:16:33

CLINE:

Do you need to get the phone?



00:16:34

CHOI:

Can I interrupt?



00:16:57

CLINE:

OK, let me pause it. Take your microphone off.



00:17:05

CHOI:

Hello? I'm not going to answer the phone now



00:17:10

CLINE:

OK. Didn't get there fast enough?



00:17:36

CHOI:

Yeah. Maybe they can leave a message.



00:18:12

CLINE:

OK. We're back. You were talking about your father having to essentially grow up without the parental love that -- yeah. So your father sounds like a pretty tough guy then. (laughter) So you moved back to Korea with the family; you were about nine years old then -- what do you remember about your return to Korea? What was Korea like then?



00:22:53

CHOI:

I was a student; I went to school. (inaudible) a regular student. At that time, we had to prepare the entrance examination to junior high. It was a rural school, so to go to junior high, we had to go to the city, and lots of competition. So we had to study hard and prepare for that. Always study, study, study. That was 1949. And fortunately, I passed two of the junior high schools in Taegu, and I chose one and attended there. And at that time, my grandfather -- he married a young wife after my grandmother passed away, and he had four, five children, with young wives. So one of them is -- even though he is an uncle to me, only one year older than me. (laughter) And his wife, two years older than my mother. So we have some conflicts in our father's families and our grandfather's families.

They stayed home, and not any education. But our father went to Manchuria and (inaudible), some kind of civilized. And my mother told my father, she cannot live with him. (inaudible) Not easy. So anyway, we moved to Taegu eventually. They're always asking for financial help from my father, because even though they are half-brothers to my father, my father was very generous, and he did as they asked. Then my mother married him. (laughter) And I was in high school and college in Seoul, but none of my uncle's family, my grandfather's brother's line, (inaudible) formal education. So I feel bad. Unfortunately, all of them -- (inaudible) really older than me, he passed away. And one year younger than me, he also passed away. And two or three years younger, he passed away. And right now, none of them made it, no uncle lives.



00:22:59

CLINE:

Wow. And did they all stay basically in a rural sort of --



00:24:23

CHOI:

Well, now they're all spread, Korea is all industrialized. So they moved out to cities. But still, we have a once a year family gathering to visit our mortuary, the tomb, to go to my father and our ancestors (inaudible). But I couldn't go there, so I was totally outside looking in. So I feel guilty, because now I'm on my son's debt; all my ancestors lived in Korea, and they are (inaudible), so I hear -- sometimes I understand you want to go back. He's actually (inaudible), nobody --



00:24:45

CLINE:

So during your childhood, starting after you returned to Korea, you were going to school, you said you got into this junior high school. What were your interests, and what kind of activities do you remember engaging in when you were a youngster?



00:25:38

CHOI:

You know, I'm -- not a talent student. Basically, the grade is good, but so what? I did not have any particular subject I most like. I didn't. But I know the music, and some kind of painting, and exercise -- I didn't like it. I liked literatures, some of the foreign language kind of a subject.



00:25:46

CLINE:

So do you remember engaging in any sports? Did you have a lot of friends?



00:25:51

CHOI:

So even now, I'm not interested in sports. (laughter)



00:25:53

CLINE:

Well, that's OK.



00:26:05

CHOI:

(inaudible) The sports section, I throw it away.



00:26:14

CLINE:

Do you remember having friends in the neighborhood, things that you did together with anyone?



00:26:55

CHOI:

At that time? Yes, I had close friends. It was my classmate in primary school. He was one or two years senior than me. Now, he lives in Taegu, doing -- herbalist. Do you know herbalist? Selling kind of -- yeah, plants.



00:26:58

CLINE:

Herbal remedies.



00:27:39

CHOI:

(inaudible) doctors, yes. And he -- every year, sending me (inaudible), and he just always does this. So whenever I go to Korea, I call him, and visit him, and we meet together sometimes. Very close friends.



00:27:57

CLINE:

Now, you had a lot of siblings, a lot of kids in the house. Do you remember what life was like in the house, in terms of different chores or responsibilities everyone had, or what was expected of you as children in the household?



00:29:44

CHOI:

In my family, I was the eldest brother, and in school, I was the good student. And so whenever I had books, and in my study room, nobody bothered me. But unfortunately, my young siblings (inaudible), and they did a good job in schools, and (inaudible). But we didn't fight, and we still have good relationships. But I feel also guilty, because they expect something big, a big brother, but I am not -- 30 years old, I did nothing for them. So if I were big financially, maybe I could give a million dollars to them, invite them to America, give them tours, et cetera et cetera.



00:29:55

CLINE:

Usuallly, there would be a fair amount of expectation or even pressure put on the eldest son in the family. Did you feel much of that? What was expected --



00:34:06

CHOI:

Yeah, I felt it. And I made myself (inaudible), feel that way. But I felt. And one thing I have to tell you, I have an interest in our situation of homeland in Korea, (inaudible) North Korea has big problems. And I came to America in 1971; I immediately understood my role could be the reconciliation of the North and the South Korea. As a Korean living in America, I could visit both countries. And -- because here, the South Koreans, they're very limited to visit North Korea. And North Korea, they couldn't get any letter, any (inaudible), very poor conditions for North Korean people. It's terrible, miserable things they live. But I think guilty also. Nobody makes me guilty, but I feel -- I make it. Because I've got nothing; what can I do? And so I just did -- 1981, 25 years ago.

And so, with my naked eye, with the condition of North Korea, (inaudible). So they isolate me, so I couldn't get a visa to visit South Korea for many years. When my father passed away in America, I took his remains to [Akimpo], but I couldn't get in. (laughter) So I (inaudible). So that kind of thing, still generic Korean, they didn't understand, because as you, American, cannot understand it, North Korea is so bizarre or unlikely -- nobody likes that in their countries. I do not like them, but I feel some kind of responsibility. What can we do? What is the best solution? So when I realized (inaudible), they of course got some kind of disadvantage living in Korea, because if I am their family members, or government at that time, you know, watching other families (inaudible).



00:34:44

CLINE:

So, yeah, we'll talk more about the whole North and South Korean situation as we go along, and your travel to North Korea. I wanted to ask you now, during this period when you were growing up in South Korea -- this is obviously a very contentious time. I mean, there's a war that goes on during your lifetime, during your youth. What do you remember about living in Korea during the time when all this was happening? What was that like?



00:40:53

CHOI:

I -- (inaudible) speaking, I pursued my own goals, and I didn't care, to be honest. I wanted to be a full-time teaching staff in college, and I liked to teach, especially the history of dentistry. When I was in the first year of the (inaudible) school, a medical doctor, he came as a lecturer, and taught us only medical history, not dental history. So I thought, gee, in dental school, we should learn history also. So as I grew up, I tried to be a teacher, and teach that kind of subject in dental school. So I finished the master's degree, or even doctor's degree, but that chance didn't come to me. The reason is that, you know, credit. Medical history or dental history is a very, very small, minor credit in the whole curriculum.

So a bigger department that has more power. So they didn't give many chance -- I did not have any good background of professors to support me, to recommend to be a full-time teaching staff. And I was disappointed, my children growing up and my financial station was terrible. So I decided this is not (inaudible), I could leave. Run away to America. So I was very selfish; I had to come to America. Some of my friends, they did a practice, and made money, and they didn't care about teaching, academic studies like that. But I was some kind of -- I declared the money-making practice would only (inaudible). So in the meantime, I was three years in the Korean army; I served as a dental surgeon.

And after that, (inaudible), so I understood that. And I was (inaudible), came back to America, and he told me right now immigration might be possible; you can go to America by immigration. So immediately I applied, and fortunately, I came here, in 1971 I came to America. It was 6 years I was in Korea, totally -- my father supported my financial -- and I had my wife and my three children all dependent, financially, to my father. So later, I felt ashamed, you know. What am I doing? I'm grown up and still depend on my father, and didn't know how to be -- because without a full-time teaching staff, the income is very, very limited. (inaudible) medical assistant, but in Korea, a part-time lecturer, (inaudible). I couldn't make that living, and so --



00:41:04

CLINE:

Let me back up a bit here, before we get to that. First of all, how did you get interested in dentistry, and when did that happen?



00:44:02

CHOI:

Oh, yes. It was high school years, and we had two choices. My father wanted me to go medical school, because in Korea, always medical jobs, profession, and stable. And they (inaudible). And I thought, gee, too many medical doctors, or too many students going to medical school. But if I go to dental school, maybe I can be more -- you know, the dental position then -- and dental school was only four years; medical school was six years. Two years pre-medical course; after that, advanced medical school. So it was my mistake, and I decided to go to dental school, and they were surprised. "Oh, we thought you were going to medical school. How come you go to dental school?"

Because in Korea, dental school was not so popular. And some of the brilliantest students would rather go to medical school than the dental schools. But I chose dental school. And I later, in the paper, the newspaper, my entrance score was top, so my high school teachers, they understood -- "Oh, you made the top this time, in dental school." But in dental school, I was -- even though I made (inaudible), top scores, the (inaudible) techniques and other skills are not so good. So my academy score is drop. But that's why I always, at the dental school, I hated to become a so-called wet-finger practitioner.



00:44:05

CLINE:

(laughter) I haven't heard that one before. Wow.



00:45:14

CHOI:

Anybody pursuing money, they like that wet-finger practice. They're very wise how to make the money, how to get it out from the pocket of the patient, how to become rich. But I was so naive, you know? (inaudible) dentistry. I thought that some kind of ethics, some history. It's a problem, but you know, always the big power comes from the red-finger practice. (inaudible)



00:45:43

CLINE:

And during your schooling and everything, to return to this question, was there anything that you remember about having all this going on, pursuing your life during wartime that you remember, were you ever -- did you ever have to take cover; were you relocated or evacuated ever? Was anything going on that affected your life in any really obvious way that you can recall?



00:46:42

CHOI:

No. The Korean War was started in 1950, and ended 1953. At that time, I was in junior high school; I was under tense schools, and -- but after that, 1953, I was in high school, and in 1955 in college in Seoul, Korea. I was not affected directly to my life.



00:47:01

CLINE:

Because I was just wondering, since you were young, during your youth, during those few years, if that affected you in any way, or if you remembered being afraid, or if you saw soldiers coming or going -- anything that went on when you were a youngster.



00:49:02

CHOI:

Interesting thing was, when I was in junior high, first grade, 1950, June, July, it was a hot summer. We were starting class, and the American soldiers, they were all naked and in showers. (inaudible), in the garden, and some kind of sink. So we -- it was an interesting scene. (inaudible) and they, in the evening, played with Korean prostitutes, Korean girls, many Korean girls -- and American GI, after this thing, some kind of PS, they buy her lots of chocolate, whatever, American food, (inaudible) girlfriend at the house, and she (inaudible), I think some kind of chewing gum, chocolate. That I remember.



00:49:08

CLINE:

Wow. Was this the first time you had seen non-Asians in person?



00:50:14

CHOI:

No. Non-Asians we saw in Manchuria; at that time, the Russian army was robbing even the rich aristocrat's watch. That was in 1945, when we came down to from Manchuria to North Korea. Then we crossed 38th parallel at that time, the Russian army prevented us to go down south. So we hid and waited, the guard man was out, so we crossed it to the south. That was very interesting.



00:50:16

CLINE:

How were you traveling?



00:50:19

CHOI:

Just walking it.



00:50:20

CLINE:

Walking, really?



00:50:34

CHOI:

Yeah. And when we came to the rail station, we got on the train.



00:50:47

CLINE:

I see. Interesting. So you were in class, and there were a bunch of American soldiers bathing. There was like a window or something, you could see in -- wow.



00:50:50

CHOI:

Yeah. The window was open, because it was hot.



00:50:55

CLINE:

-- because it was hot. (laughter) That's hilarious. Interesting.



00:50:58

CHOI:

They didn't care if we could see them or not.



00:51:57

CLINE:

Right, they're just kids, right? Fascinating. And you mentioned a little bit earlier about sort of the charged atmosphere of suspicion, because of the interest of the Communist and non-Communist factors in Korea that were -- of course, the Korean conflict, and then eventually wound up with the country being divided into North and South. Is there anything else about that specifically that you remember, in terms of suspicion or any kind of activity that you remember experiencing that was a result of that suspicion?



00:56:55

CHOI:

At that time, we were young; (inaudible) at the moment. And the Communist party doing this role. But later, I (inaudible) studying, I thought about what the American government did during 1945 to 1950, five years in South Korea. They didn't fully understand the South Korean mentality or sentiment or history or background, and they had no definite plan how to control South Korea. So some mistakes happened, the American government, they made. For example, South Korean families had rice for dinner, the main food source was rice, for South Korean. But (inaudible), they said, "How come the Koreans leave only rice? They can leave beef." Such a comment, you know?

And the American soldiers or military government hired lots of Korean officials who were collaborating with the Japanese government before the world war was over; that was another mistake, even though they have some kind of know-how, the South Korean people didn't like the same guy controlling them. Once they (inaudible) in Japanese, Koreans also hate Japanese. But now they became part of American soldiers, and they perceived being Communist things. So the same guy doing two kinds of jobs. And before 1945, I remember seeing the so-called Korean Independent Army. And after that, the Korean Communist agents. So Koreans thought the real (inaudible) is not the (inaudible) or American-supported government, but the real leader was Norse, because they fight with the Japanese in the 1940s. That's all that I know. But we didn't understand such things well; we were too young. But when we were in college, slowly we learned, read books.



00:56:56

CLINE:

Interesting --



00:56:59

CHOI:

What time do we have now?



00:57:00

CLINE:

We've been going almost an hour.



00:57:02

CHOI:

An hour?



00:57:09

CLINE:

Yeah. How's your time? Do you have appointments today?



00:11:30 00:57:13

CHOI:

Today, can we stop around



00:57:16

CLINE:

Yeah, we can just do a few more minutes, OK?



00:57:25

CHOI:

Yeah, and maybe you can come often, if you want.



00:57:32

CLINE:

Next week, I'll -- I have to listen to this and make some follow-up questions, so it may be about in a week, if that's good.



00:57:33

CHOI:

On Friday?



00:57:35

CLINE:

Would that work for you?



00:58:05

CHOI:

Yes, because my situation is that I'm not open, this office, every day. Sunday through Thursday, I close, and Thursday, Friday, Saturday, open. But Friday, only for you.



00:58:26

CLINE:

Oh, OK. (inaudible) All right. Well, we'll just go a little bit more today, and then we'll schedule our next session. So it sounds like, as you were getting through, coming out of high school, going into college, during this period at some point, it sounds like you got married.



00:58:29

CHOI:

Oh, yes, I did.



00:58:33

CLINE:

When did you get married, and how did you meet your wife?



00:59:21

CHOI:

Oh, yes. I met the wife not as a wife -- at that time, big sisters, while I was in college, and she was five years senior to me, and she was helping a homeless orphanage as a teacher. And she was sleeping with them as a -- some kind of manager, club manager. Don't you know the proper English word?



00:59:22

CLINE:

(laughter) I'm sure, I do, but --



00:59:27

CHOI:

Some (inaudible) head.



00:59:32

CLINE:

I know what you mean, and I'm not coming up with it, sorry.



01:02:35

CHOI:

So I respected her, and she was also attending seminary school. So I (inaudible) from 1956 and 57, 8, 9. And at that time, my mother was sick, and she insisted on being -- "Before I die, I want to see my (inaudible). Please marry." So my mother insisted. So many girls that were (inaudible), but I couldn't marry with them, so I decided, to father and mother, "I have this girl. If you allow me, I'm going to marry her." Well, at that time, my father was very furious. "She is five years senior to her, you are (inaudible), and it's a shame for our family." I'm going to do that.

But I just insisted. So my father -- at that time, he lived in (inaudible), and I lived in Seoul, and so (inaudible). And my father said she may be too weak, and the housewife should be strong, so they can bear good children. But then I insisted, and finally, my father told me, "If you insist on your own way, you're not my son. Do whatever you want to." And my mother told me, "You can marry." And so I married her in 1959, I waited until I finished college, same year. So that was the beginning of my new life.



01:02:40

CLINE:

How old were you then?



01:02:50

CHOI:

That was -- I was 23, and my wife was 28. So --



01:03:04

CLINE:

Yeah, that would be considered kind of old to be wife material at that point, I'm sure. (laughter)



01:04:29

CHOI:

Now, thirty years later, maybe we can celebrate a golden anniversary. Fifty years is too long. But anyway, in the meantime, we had one daughter and two sons, and we're happy. And so my marriage life, even though she is not an ideal wife to me, sometimes I want more, a different type of talents from my wife, but anyway. She's not dangerous. I'm not a danger to her. And so day by day, we (inaudible). But she has a limited English understanding, and I want a more Americanized style.



01:04:35

CLINE:

OK. And when you came to the United States, you brought her and your whole family.



01:04:36

CHOI:

Yes.



01:04:47

CLINE:

OK, right. Well, we're going to talk about that in detail next time we meet, OK? So does this seem like a good place to stop to you?



01:04:49

CHOI:

Oh, yes.





CLINE:

OK. It's almost 11:30.



01:04:51

CHOI:

OK.



01:04:54

CHOI:

You want (inaudible)?





CLINE:

Yeah, maybe when I'm taking this all down -- I'm going to turn this off, and we'll officially conclude for today.

Session 2 (July 29, 2006)

00:00:03



00:00:20

CLINE:

All right. Today is Friday, July 29, 2006. This is Alex Cline, interviewing Dr. Jimmy Choi at his office in Los Angeles, and this is session number two. Good morning.



00:00:24

CHOI:

Good morning. I told you 28th; you said 29th.



00:01:14

CLINE:

Oh, I did? 28th. See, I'm so tired today. 28th, today is the 28th. Straightened it out and I didn't even get it right. OK, we're going to follow up our first session with a few questions relating to that, and then head into your immigration to the US. One of the questions that I had -- you mentioned a couple of peripheral subjects that touched on religion a little, one of them being that you have someone in your family now who's in the Christian ministry. I wondered if during your growing up, there was any particular religious focus or activity in your family in Korea.



00:05:26

CHOI:

We grew up on Confucianism. And my father was the eldest son of our family, and at least six times, we have a ceremony for our ancestors. Great-grandfather or mother, or grandfather and mother, the father and mother, et cetera. Every time it comes they passed away, we have a memorial service in the Confucianist way at midnight. But I didn't like that, so my father always blamed me. But I attended a church from my high school days, because at that time, my mother's side grandma, she was attending church, and always asked me to go to the church. So I attended the church, baptized; that was 1953, maybe. And read the Bible, and I like to be a Christian, but my father and mother, they didn't like it.

And the reason is that the religion makes me more weak, not strong. The religion is for older peoples, not for young. That was my parents -- especially my father insisted, he said, "Do whatever you want when you are young." The man should be -- sometimes do a variety of activity, you know? But if you already (inaudible) the church, and they emphasize only do something good, then that's no good for the youngsters. (laughter) That was my father's reason. And, well, I attend college, I met the girl who was a seminary student, and later she became my wife. Anyway -- excuse me. And I grew up with Christianity, so I wanted sometimes to be a seminary student also, specializing in the Bible study, you know? But I didn't do that.



00:06:18

CLINE:

OK. And another thing I wondered about, since before you left Korea, you were living there through the '60s, which was a very interesting decade, in terms of culture, in terms of the sorts of activities going on in the world, a lot of upheaval, a lot of change, a lot of heavy emergence of popular culture that I'm sure got imported or exported throughout the world. What do you remember about the '60s in Korea, in terms of the culture that is happening, perhaps particularly in contrast to how it may have been before the '60s?



00:15:10

CHOI:

'60s in Korea was my 20s, after graduation of my college. I finished dental school in 59, and the next years, 1960, the South Korean government collapsed, because at that time, [Shingman Lee] was the President of South Korea, and he was part of a dictator, and the student revolution uprisings, and the whole society, and in 1960, that government was changed. Then, '61, a military coup happened in South Korea, and [Pa Chung Hi], dictator general, governed the next 19 years, South Korea. And so at that time, I was serving three years in the Army as a dental surgeon and captain, so I discharged 1965, and then after that, until I come to the United States in '71, I stayed in Seoul, tried to get some position in my alma mater teaching staffs, and doing some kind of part-time teachings. So the society at that time is rapidly changing, because (inaudible) system was upside-down, and military government, they said they are building a new society, and they introduced some method from the Army systems.

That means the control, any problem, they always said there is a wrong and a right, a wrong and a right; this is for good or this is for not good. So -- and that military government set up North Korea as the prime target of evils, and we haev to overcome that Communist idea. So the South Korean dictator didn't allow any freedoms of speech or freedom of publications in society. So I felt that that is no good; I didn't like that. And I emphasized the so-called protesting class against the dictator class, because most of the intelligentsia, they didn't like that kind of military dictatorships. So in my mind, I wanted to escape from this South Korea. And in the meantime, the corruption was rapidly spreading over the society, because a new power group was emerging, the military group, who had some kind of connection with that new group; they get all the information and make money more fast than other people. And they were emerging as a new bourgeoise, a new upper-middle class. But it was unfortunate that I didn't have such good luck; I fell more in the poors.

And at that time, the South Korea, they issued a project to divide up the nation's highway systems, and they're making new highways from (inaudible), and some already got the information, and the land, before the government issued that project. And after that issue was known, the price was tripled and immediately, they become rich and rich. Such things happened in South Korea. The '60s in South Korea, for me, was not happy, because financially I was very poor, and I couldn't get any fixed positions, and so everything is unclear; I'm getting old, my children are growing, and I lived in anxieties. How to live. And I felt ashamed. So at the end of the '60s, I found a chance to process the immigration to America, so I could come in '71, in March, in Los Angeles.



00:15:17

CLINE:

Right, which we're going to get into in detail. Hang on just a second.



00:15:27

CHOI:

Yeah. Signatures? Yeah.



00:16:06

CLINE:

All right. Before I get into that, I wanted to ask you about your time spent doing dentistry in the Army. I heard interesting -- some interesting perspectives on this; I guess it can be quite the training ground, to do dental work in the Army. What was your feeling about doing that? Do you feel that it was beneficial? Did you find anything very positive about it, or what was your feeling about your time spent doing that?



00:19:10

CHOI:

Oh, I spent three years in the Army as a dental surgeon, but usually, I served as a manager, or a leader, of a dental sect, a small unit in the middle company. And as a practicioner, yes, I did some; not major things, because usually in the Army, there are many different levels, in the hospital, the Army hospital, and some (inaudible) arrange of hospitals. But I served as a (inaudible) unit. So if serious things happen, always we vacated to the bigger and the bigger hospitals. So my job was very limited; doing simple things.

And presenting that as more (inaudible) units. And it didn't help me any, clinically or whatever. But I was a captain; that is high rank, you know? And so everybody salututes (laughter) and I had a Jeep, a car, so whenever I drive, especially -- I cannot drive, the driver drives everybody, respect the car. So I enjoyed three years in the rural area, and weekends, I came to Seoul; the reason was that I had a class on Saturday in Seoul, so I had to go back to teach. So weekends, I came to Seoul.



00:19:29

CLINE:

And now, leading into your departure from Korea for the US, I wanted to ask you: how much did you know about the United States before you decided to relocate here?



00:20:22

CHOI:

Oh, you asked (inaudible) from my junior high period, always America was a paradise to us. And especially, the Korean War, many Americans just -- they came to Korea, even though -- you may laugh -- the fishes -- do you understand fishes? -- the dung -- was more nutritious than Korean things. There's a saying like that.



00:20:23

CLINE:

Oh, really?



00:23:23

CHOI:

Yeah. Everything made in America is more high quality and better than Korea. So food and the clothes and the cultures -- whatever. In America, it's the best, or better. Got such ideas, without any criticisms. So I wanted to speak English, and I wanted to go to America, and so I didn't know what the other side of America is. But at that time, it was very hard to go out of Korea, because the Korean government has a military law prohibiting the youngsters going out without finishing their military duty in Korea.

So firstly he should serve in the Army three years, then he could go out to another foreigner -- foreign countries. But I attended school only, so I didn't take the chance at the military service first. I postponed it until I finished college. After college, I attended graduate school also. So attending graduate school, I served three years of military service. And so after that, now, I qualified to go out. So I tried to go to America, but for me, it was very late.



00:23:28

CLINE:

Did you know anyone -- did you have any friends or family who had come over here?



00:24:51

CHOI:

Not my own friends or families lived here, but fortunately, my wife, she had a friend, Seminary friends, came already in Los Angeles, as early as before, because they were -- one of them is without families there, [Burgeons], so she was very easy to apply to go to America, and she found some sponsors in Los Angeles, and she lived in Los Angeles. And then some other friends also lived in Los Angeles. So my wife had some information from them, the Los Angeles. That's why while I'm coming to America, and the first place was Los Angeles, we landed here.



00:24:57

CLINE:

So I take it she also wanted to leave and come to the United States?



00:25:24

CHOI:

My wife, in the beginning -- very reluctant, because she couldn't speak any English, so she worried about it. But I wanted her to go to America, and she reluctantly allowed to move to America.



00:25:28

CLINE:

And by now, of course, you also have children --



00:25:32

CHOI:

Yes, at that time we had already three children.



00:25:45

CLINE:

So this is a major undertaking. What do you remember about your departure from Korea and your trip over here, and coming here for the first time?



00:25:47

CHOI:

I beg your pardon?



00:25:54

CLINE:

What do you remember about leaving Korea, getting ready to leave? What do you remember about your trip?



00:25:58

CHOI:

Oh, remember. Oh, I see.



00:26:07

CLINE:

Yeah, your first taste of life in Los Angeles.



00:28:56

CHOI:

Yeah, it was large. We left Kimpo Airport in Seoul, and arrived -- how I arrived first, because the airplane had some problems and some repair job they needed -- how I was very warm. And then, several hours later, then we changed airplanes, then arrived in Los Angeles at -- after midnight, very dark times. And we phoned to the wife's friends; they arrived to pick us up, so, the first day was starting in Los Angeles. And my children were very delighted, and my youngest boy, he found the bananas in the refrigerator, and he took, immediately, maybe five or six bananas; he ate them.

(laughter) In Korea, it was a very expensive, exotic food. So one banana, we could divide, and give the children, they share it. Food was the first thing my children enjoyed, and the weather was nice. I was the only member who could speak or understand English, and my wife and all young children, they did not understand English, you know? So I was teaching English to them, but eventually not. 30 years after, what happened? I am the poorest English speaker. (laughter)



00:29:03

CLINE:

(laughter) Poorest. Well, they were young. How old were they, by the way, at this point?



00:29:04

CHOI:

Right now?



00:29:05

CLINE:

No, when --



00:29:06

CHOI:

At that time?



00:29:07

CLINE:

Yeah, when you came --



00:31:40

CHOI:

Yeah, at that time, I was 36 and my daughter, she was ten, and my boy was eight, and the youngest was six, like that, you know? So English was the problem in the beginning. But they went to school, and they eventually overcame the English, gradually. At that time, I had a conflict, though, with my wife, because I told her, even though we are living in America, we could not forget Korean history or Korean language, so we should keep the Korean identity. So the Korean alphabet we have to teach to the children.

But my wife opposed it, and she said, oh, leave them alone, because they already have too much stress in learning English, and why do you put another unnecessary stress to them to remember things Korean? So that was an on and on dispute between my wife and me. Eventually, I gave up. The result was, I'm still not happy, not satisfied, because even though my daughter, she speaks Korean, but reading Korean alphabet is poor, and my two boys, they do not speak Korean, they do not read Korean. So I felt very ashamed, because I didn't do any good education at home, and lost my fathership as Korean fathers.



00:31:46

CLINE:

And you said your wife doesn't speak English that well still; is that true?



00:31:48

CHOI:

Yeah, still she does not speak well.



00:31:51

CLINE:

So how does she communicate with her boys?



00:32:09

CHOI:

Oh, yeah, and she speaks Korean to the boys, and the boys, they hear, and they understand --



00:32:10

CLINE:

But they speak English?



00:32:56

CHOI:

They speak in English, and my wife, she understands English some, broken English and whatever, and the communication that goes on between them -- but always I'm feeling some resentment. You see, for example, right now. Here's a TV set; my wife always tried to watch Korean TV programs, and I did not like that.



00:33:30

CLINE:

This is such a typical story in so many immigrant tales, though. So when you first came here -- well, first let me ask: when you were traveling, I'm assuming that it's likely that your children had never been on a big airplane flight like that before or anything; this is was a big adventure. What were the feelings surrounding this big relocation? Leaving home, getting on a plane, flying to somewhere far away. What was everybody;s mood?



00:33:55

CHOI:

They enjoyed it, you know? Just a big vacation for them; never they had such a trip, airplanes, whatever, you know. Not hardships for them.



00:34:01

CLINE:

But you're leaving family and friends -- what was it like for you then, and your wife?



00:36:51

CHOI:

Oh, I have family in Korea, but at that time, we -- what can I say? My mother passed away already, and my father was the only parents I concerned. But other -- a brother and a sister; they lived their own life. But we didn't have such an intimate relationship within families, so only my father told me, "Please don't go to America, please stay with me." But I insisted, and he came to America. But my brother and sister, they didn't care. And my friends, school friends, they admired, some, because I had such an adventurous course. But they knew I was not in a good position in Korea, so at that time, the immigration was not welcomed in the upper class of South Koirea, so I was not proud of it, to leave my country. If I were in a good position, if I were rich in Korea, there's no reason to go or come to America. Most of them felt it that way at that time, but later they changed their lot.



00:37:08

CLINE:

Yeah, and you had said that your father actually threatened to disown you if you married you wife, and you did go ahead and marry your wife. It doesn't sound like he disowned you; what happened?



00:37:56

CHOI:

Oh, he loved me anyway, because I was rebellious against him. And he supported, after my marriage, every month he sent us living expense, and he paid it. So he was very faithful to me, and so still, I feel so grateful to him. He was generous, and I admire him.



00:37:59

CLINE:

So when you first came to Los Angeles, where did you live?



00:38:49

CHOI:

Oh, at that time, we had three children, so they suggested that renting an apartment is no good, so maybe renting a house is a better idea. So we drove here and there, and finally, we found one house on 17th Street, near Arlington's. And we hired that, rented that house, and we enjoyed that place for awhile.



00:38:58

CLINE:

What were you doing for income?



00:40:43

CHOI:

My income is nothing, you know? So the ministers, Korean ministers who suggested to me, if you go to the Social Security office, you can apply for some assistance from the government, you know? So I went with him to the Social Security office, and he helped me to fill it out, and later, we got food stamps. And that's good enough for just food from the market, and my wife, she got a job immediately, because of her friends attending some assembly company, and they took her, and gave her a job. So she was attending there, and the children going to school. And I had another job, but in the meantime, I went to some dental school, and the teacher advised me, "Oh, you can have a job here," and I asked, "How?" "(inaudible), they are hiring a busboy.



00:40:44

CLINE:

Oh, wow.



00:41:13

CHOI:

So I went there, and I worked as a busboy several months. At that time, the first income was $2 an hour. Minimum expense was $1.60, something like that. That was my first income in America.



00:41:24

CLINE:

Wow. And now your children are going to school, so they're evidently having to learn English in the school.



00:41:24

CHOI:

Yes, yes.



00:41:39

CLINE:

What eventually happened -- clearly, you went into the dental practice at some point, which I know requires -- you have to be licensed over here. What happened? How did you manage to make that change?



00:44:22

CHOI:

Yeah, and as a dentist, in Korea, I'm not satisfied, so I didn't like the wet-finger practitioners. So I always tried to run away from that part of jobs. But when I came to America, some alumni from the same school in Seoul, Korea, during school, was here already, and some of them were attending the USC dental school, and they advised me, "Look, to get dentists, here is the best way for you. So study to get into their school first; then maybe your position could be settled."

So I followed their advise, and the USC dental school had, at that time, international programs; whoever finished their education in foreign countries, and after a test, they're accepted as a junior class student in USC, and after two years, they give them USC degrees, the DDS, and also gave the qualification to apply to the state for the exams, to take the test. So I attended that USC dental school from '72 to '74, two years. And eventually I passed, (inaudible) a license, and finished the USC dental school in '74 or so. I worked as a dentist in California.



00:44:54

CLINE:

So during this time, then, you're going to USC; your wife is working; your chlildren are going to school. What do you remember about the Korean community in Los Angeles at that time, in terms of the people and in terms of the various venues that were available for Koreans in Los Angeles back then, during the '70s?



00:44:59

CHOI:

What is the key point? What are the main things you want to know?



00:45:26

CLINE:

Well, let's start with the people. You had friends of your wife's; you were meeting people perhaps through your practice. How much interaction did you have with other Koreans living in LA? Did you interact mostly with Koreans, or did you interact also with non-Koreans, and what was the Korean community like when you came here?



00:49:52

CHOI:

OK. The Koreans have some restaurants in (inaudible), and some grocery stores, no Olympic bluebird. So immediately, the Koreans visiting the Korean-owned stores. So they there get all kinds of information. The church, the Korean church, and then Sunday, every Korean goes to some Korean church, and so all informations, how to live in Los Angeles, they get from church -- ministers with the church, I think. A job source, or housing, or renting -- whatever, you know? So one job is better, or one place is hiring some applicant, then all Koreans go in.

(laughter) And my case was the dentistry, and one or two students already attending USC, and they were advertising what (inaudible) hired, (inaudible) dental school in California. So we came from Korea without any American educations, and studied hard to get into that USC dental school first. And during weekdays, I am attending dental school, and the weekend, going to church, and doing those kind of activities with other Koreans who have a different occupation or different background. And so the church was growing here and there, and we Koreans at that time, Los Angeles was very rapidly growing, because new immigrants coming every day from Korea, since 1965, maybe, the new immigration law was changed; the quarter was increased.

So some ministers, their job was every day, going to the Los Angeles airport to pick up or to meet new arrivals, so they were asking them, do they have anybody waiting or know somebody; if they say no, then the minister gives a ride or kind of helps, and then that person becomes his congregation member. (laughter) Because he helps (inaudible) like that.



00:50:27

CLINE:

So you said there were people at the church, they came from different backgrounds, they have different occupations. What kind of people were there attending at this point? Were there a lot of people like you who had recently immigrated and who spoke Korean, or were there people who maybe had been here longer, or economically, what are we talking about, in terms of the kind of jobs that people are doing where they're at?



00:52:12

CHOI:

Yeah, when I went to church, most of them were the recently come, and their financial background was not good. But they couldn't speak good English, but they are willing to do anything to make money. So they have some skills to live in new societies; who had the skills got promoted more fast and making more monies, so he -- recruiting another of his friends, doing the same thing, the same jobs. So different businesses growing, and some who have talent in the business field, developing more financial independence. I admire them. But I didn't have such business skill.



00:52:21

CLINE:

And where would you think most of these people were that you knew were living? What part of town were they living in at that point?



00:53:13

CHOI:

I was near Olympic Boulevard, between the Western and [La Bourmant]. So typical Koreatowns. I was there. So I -- later I purchased a house at 14th Street. Only $20,000, and a big house. If I could keep that now, maybe it would be more than half a million.



00:53:28

CLINE:

Well, it's a brick house; it may not still be standing if it got hit by earthquakes. (laughter) So were most of these people living in the Koreatown areas?



00:54:58

CHOI:

Yes, because they couldn't go out; their English is limited, and (inaudible), the Los Angeles, the center of most of the first-generation Koreans. This morning I read papers from New York and another state -- the first generation, the senior now, they're coming back to Los Angeles, because Los Angeles is the best place to spend the rest of your life. Because everything is convenient: the Korean restaurant and the Korean church and the Korean -- whatever, you know? All Koreans living in Koreatown, so their communication is easy, and they spend less (inaudible). So the Koreans in Los Angeles; they are becoming a new ethnic power. Already, they Wiltshire Boulevard, the buildings -- most of them owned by Koreans. Did you hear that?



00:55:01

CLINE:

Yeah, I've heard that..



00:55:13

CHOI:

And this morning, I saw the paper; the Wiltshire and the Western, there is a theatre, and cinema.



00:55:14

CLINE:

Right, the Wiltshire and (inaudible),



00:55:20

CHOI:

That building was sold to Koreans, did you know that?



00:55:31

CLINE:

I didn't know that it had just happened. I knew that the venue itself was started a couple years ago, carrying the name [LG] (inaudible) --



00:55:34

CHOI:

Oh, yeah, [LG Wilton], yes.



00:55:36

CLINE:

So that pretty much tells the story.



00:55:47

CHOI:

Yeah, they stay here. (inaudible) $50 million.



00:56:25

CLINE:

That historical building. Yeah. So you essentially saw Koreatown go from something small to something bigger and bigger. What do you remember about the changes you started to see in the neighborhood, the increase in Korean business? What kind of businesses and what kind of people do you remember seeing there? Because this was of course largely a Latino neighborhood before. What do you remember about the changes in the neighborhood?



00:58:15

CHOI:

Small stores -- most Koreans, they do not have a good -- even though they have a good education and background, they couldn't get any jobs from an American company. So they prefer to start their own small business, even small stores. So most Koreans, with a small investment, start very small stores, pop and mom kind of stores, liquor stores, later developing some clothing or Korean food restaurants. And all kinds of related to living things, they are spreading fast in Koreatowns. And real estate brokers, they're also selling and buying for the Koreans, and even (inaudible) that Koreatowns were spreading (inaudible), yes.



00:58:19

CLINE:

Were most of these businesses then aimed at the Korean community?



00:58:19

CHOI:

Yes.



00:58:29

CLINE:

Do you remember much -- what do you remember about the interaction between the Koreans and the non-Koreans in the neighborhood?



01:01:13

CHOI:

That is very poor, I think, because still, if you go to Koreatown, they have signboards saying, "Only Korean." Only Koreans understand that kind of letters: no English. That is no good. But recently, many suggested that the Koreatown should be open to the non-Korean community, so they could understand the nature of the business. So now, they express English, the signboard. Slowly changing, yes.

And recently -- this, I don't like it, but anyway -- the nightlife -- many gangsters from Latinos, or some black -- they make troubles in Koreatown, because the Koreans, they have karaoke, [anoray-bong], people singing and drinking, even after midnight, they're doing business. So a money-pursuing spirit, the Korean has some, like the Jewish people. Very clever how to make money in America. But I worry about that ethic. Is it good for the youngsters? Is that good for the American society, and for other futures? And I doubt it. So we have to have some (inaudible) and movement in Koreatown.



01:01:45

CLINE:

And this also leads to my next question, actually, in a way, which is: as your children are growing up here, clearly they're growing up in a different culture, speaking another language. What was that experience like for you during all this time?



01:08:43

CHOI:

I'm now 70, and thinking of my three children in luxury, and I regret -- as a father, I didn't love them enough. So I didn't know how to be father to them. Because when we became an American, I was struggling with my own living, so sometimes, I thought that the children were the burden to me. So instead of a loving care or hearing their problems, but I didn't care enough, and I left alone. That, I regret. So now, the youngest boy, he said, "Dad, I cannot become the good boy you think is the Oriental way." He's totally Americanized. [Yupi] (inaudible) his own happiness, and regardless of parents. And whatever I say, it's just, "Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh," but he doesn't listen to me.

And I have no authority to say something to him, because he already knows much, much better; whatever I say, he thinks it's not related to him. He's in the computer business, doing computers. More than ten years ago, he explained about the computer, the power of the computer, you know? But still, I do not use computers. So I'm a very old, old, stone-age man. So he thinks he knows; his daddy was already gone. And my boy, another boy, the first boy -- he is a dentist, and living with Japanese girls. I talked with him a few days ago, and he's a good boy to me, because I told him my thoughts, and my ideas, and he's listening.

And he loves me, and he wants me to live a happy life, and he helps me whenever he could, that kind of a boy. And my daughter, she is busy with her own life. She loves her mom better than me, so -- once, I heard, she suggested to my wife, divorce me. So I was shocked at that time, why you want or suggest such ideas to me. Still, I'm not clearly understanding what they did at the end, mom and my daughter. A few years ago, I was sick with pneumonia at the Kaiser hospital, I was hospitalized, and at that time, my daughter came, and she confessed, "Daddy, I'm sorry; I hate you. I didn't (inaudible) before, so forgive me," et cetera, et cetera. So I heard that kind of a confession, and indeed, my mind goes thorugh -- because when she was dating the boy -- right now, her husband -- I didn't understand the dating of youngsters, so I yelled at it, and I didn't like it, and we fought.

I had a lack of understanding the youth culture's school life, the emotional development, et cetera et cetera, by already my fixed ideas. That's why some lack of communications between my children and me, and blocked the flow of love between the parents and the children. So that, I regret.



01:09:38

CLINE:

So it was difficult then. What do you remember, if any -- if there were any -- other than what you mentioned, the church, social security, food stamps -- what sort of venues were there available during the '70s to help the Korean immigrant who's arriving here? Now you have a lot of non-profit organizations in place to help Korean immigrants, and to help people with matters relating to their settling in the community. What do you remember about any such service available during the '70s?



01:13:36

CHOI:

During the '70s -- I think the church was the source of informations, and the ministers who could speak English, and he is in touch with the social security, social workers, and they get some information in spreading that way to get aid from the government. And I think the social security was the main source of the help, the first immigrants at that time. Even now, I think -- I don't know what other -- our generation didn't have so much. The reason immigrants -- now, they are rich, they are very rich, so they don't need any help from the government. And another organization is senior clubs. In the Korean community, there are maybe three or four senior clubs, and they are putting information together on how to get into the city apartments, and how to get the SSI or SSA or whatever.

So there are some problems. Even though they have enough money, they hide the debt funds, and get the social security aid every month; they get over $600, $700, and if a couple's together, they get over $1,200, $1,300. And they live in cheap apartments, and they have extra money, and they go to Las Vegas, and they enjoy that money. Very luxurious living, and they're adverting to their friends in Korea -- "See? We are living in paradise. Every month the US government sending is more than $1,200, $1,300 money, and with that, we have such luxurious and enjoyable living, but still, we have money left, and with that money, the new year or whatever festival, give to the grandchildren as a gift." Such a living, and many senior citizens in Los Angeles -- yeah. So yeah, and this is the dark side (laughter); maybe you should not hear.



01:14:20

CLINE:

No, this is what we need to know. So in a way, too, of course, that perpetuates a total illusion about what life here is really like. So you're living in LA, your children are growing up, and at some point -- this I imagine, we're moving out of the 70s now -- but you get involved in the Korean Resource Center after it becomes established, and I think we're going to talk about that next time, the details.



01:14:22

CHOI:

Yes, that is 1980s.



01:15:02

CLINE:

Yeah, that's the 80s. But I wanted to ask you now, before we call it for today -- living in Los Angeles in the '70s, as absorbed as you were in your work and in raising your family, what do you remember about life in Los Angeles at that point, and how much of Los Angeles did you see or travel around outside of the Koreatown area during your time living here during the 70s?



01:17:07

CHOI:

In the 70s and after I finished my dental schools, and from time to time we went and traveled to a national park with the family -- the Yosemites, that's the name -- and we enjoyed American life. And -- but not another state with my children. But now, I think some of the time we should have more traveling to another state or national parks, with the family all together, you know? And the beautiful memory can be left after we pass away. But that, I miss. And they were busy with their own schedules, the children, you know? And I was -- my own schedule. When they were growing up, we couldn't have time to spend together, but we had to arrange it when the children was young. If the children were grown up, they do not want to go together. And I lost the good times.



01:17:20

CLINE:

But generally speaking, I mean, you were a full grown person when you came here; you'd lived your whole life in Korea. What did you think of Los Angeles? What was your impression?



01:17:46

CHOI:

Los Angeles was a good place for me, because everything's -- I was free. I could speak English, and I could visit, and -- interesting, yeah. I enjoyed my living here in Los Angeles.



01:18:01

CLINE:

Did you get around to different parts of town? I mean, clearly, USC, Koreatown. Did you go to various places around the city?



01:18:44

CHOI:

In Los Angeles city, I didn't move around a lot. But proper Los Angeles, (inaudible), or Santa Barbara, or San Bernadino, Las Vegas, and San Diego. So I really moved around. So (inaudible) Los Angeles, but not often.



01:19:10

CLINE:

And a lot of Koreans, of course, after getting a foothold here as quickly as possible, moved to the suburbs, usual in pursuit of better schools. Did you ever have any feelings about moving out of the city and out to the suburbs somewhere? Did you ever have any goals like that?



01:20:09

CHOI:

That, I didn't have it. Because after I'd finished my dental schools, I had jobs in Los Angeles, my children growing up in Los Angeles, so there's no reason to move out to another city or another place, because Los Angeles was the best place we could live. And when I purchased a house in Glendale, we moved to Glendale. There, the children went to Glendale High School, and they enjoyed Glendale, because (inaudible).



01:20:11

CLINE:

Yeah, when was that?



01:20:25

CHOI:

Oh, it was 19 -- late 1970s and 1980s



01:20:27

CLINE:

So you did sort of move out to the suburbs.



01:20:28

CHOI:

Yes.



01:20:40

CLINE:

Then by then, there were probably a number of Koreans in Glendale. But you kept your practice here in LA.



01:21:42

CHOI:

Oh, yes, I kept -- 30 years in LA. That was my failture as well, I think. Because I -- location is in Los Angeles, but my clients or customers, most of them were Armenians, not Koreans. This location is a little bit north from the center of Koreatown, and still a little bit north. In the center of Koreatown, there are many Korean dentist, crowded. So I didn't like to compete with the youngsters there, but I couldn't make any good money here.



01:21:56

CLINE:

Well, then, I think next time, we'll pick up with the end of the 70s, and as we get into the 80s, your life in Glendale, your involvement with the Korean Resource Center, and your travel to North Korea, OK?



01:21:56 01:22:00

CLINE:

OK.

All right. Thank you for this morning.





CHOI:

All right, thank you.

Session 3 (August 4, 2006)



00:00:20

CLINE:

OK, it's running. Today is Friday, August 4, 2006. Once again, Alex Cline is here, interviewing Dr. Jimmy Choi at his office in Los Angeles. Good morning, Dr. Choi.



00:00:21

CHOI:

Hi, good morning, Alex.



00:02:12

CLINE:

Last time, we talked about your move from Korea to Los Angeles, your location in Koreatown, the development of the businesses in the community in Koreatown; we talked about the importance of the church in providing aid and advice to immigrants coming into LA from Korea, and about your family and your children's experience now, being Korean-Americans living in LA, and you and your wife being Korean parents to them; the challenges of that. I want to continue now with a few followup questions before we move into the 80s and into the present day in your life story.

One question I had; you talked about how many of the Korean people that you met, in the church in particular, were more lower economic level people; people who like you had immigrated from Korea, didn't know English well, and were struggling to get a foothold here in Los Angeles in the American world. I wondered how many people, how many of those people, left Korea for political reasons, or if you knew perhaps what the main reasons for them leaving were, since you talked about the military dictatorship, that it was ruling Korea at that time, and how that was certainly a motivating factor in leaving Korea. What was your perception as to why these people were leaving Korea?



00:02:23

CHOI:

At that time, most of the people -- they came just for economical reasons, I think not for political reasons.



00:02:24

CLINE:

Ah, OK.



00:07:51

CHOI:

They were a very few percept that didn't like that dictator in South Korea, so they left. But I understand, most of them came to America just for better living. So they had invitations from their relatives already come to America. Some of them -- GI bride, (inaudible) GI stays in Korea and they took Korean wives, and they married, and they came to America, then this lady, she invites her whole family from Korea, you know? And so they could live in America, much better condition, because they can (inaudible) than in Korea. And their social level was a little lower than in normal Korean society, but they have -- most of them, they enjoyed American life from the beginning.

They could do any kind of work, because they have a little education, but they are very hard, (inaudible), and they can get money by workings. Yes, but my situation was a little bit different. I was college-graduated, and I am very critical about the society and what's going on in South Korea. But when I graduated USC dental school in 1974, in Los Angeles, there were new organizations here that tried to restore democracy in South Korea. The leader was [Kim Sun Dong]; he was mayor of Seoul City in 1968, and his daughter and his son-in-law lived in America, so anyway, he came to visit to America, but later he couldn't go back to South Korea; he'd (inaudible) to come back.

So this Kim Sun Dong, he was a political leader, and he stayed in Los Angeles, and he organized a small organization. But around here, mostly seniors, (inaudible), but they recruited us, your generation. And I like them, because they're much higher levels intelligentsia, and they're always worried about the future of Korea, and thinking the dictator should move out, so we should do something in America to help, with the persecuting in South Korea because of their political opinions, of at that time [Chang Chun Ha] was another very high active opposition leader in South Korea. He was a publisher of the [Tsa Tsan Gai] monthly [joiners], very active, but that dictator, he prosecuted him; finally he was killed. So we organized also to help his children's financial -- because they couldn't get any jobs in South Korea, because of their descent. So we organized that society also. And such movement was begun in 1970 -- this happened in 1975. So I was a member -- (phone ringing) --



00:07:58

CLINE:

We'll just let it go, OK.



00:14:44

CHOI:

I joined them, and so I had the same opinion, and I helped them whenever they needed me, I helped. And at that time, whatever the leader was in Canada, [Jim Jay Jun], he is a great Protestant minister, and he always (inaudible) in Canada, but sometimes he came to Los Angeles, and talked about (inaudible) to restore democracy in South Korea. And so -- (inaudible) woman in late 70s, by the time we left Los Angeles, and finally I understood where (inaudible) a politician, because you can see where South Korea and North Korea. Objectively, he asked if we could get the information, and we (inaudible), so I wanted to see or understand more in North Korea, because at that time, North Korea always said they are living in paradise, and their propaganda is very excellent, you know?

So whoever visited, and they came back and told them, told us, "Oh, North Korea is a very beautiful country," or they are fine. But I was not convinced of their reports. I want to see with my own eyes. And at that time, in 1981, suddenly I heard they're accepting tourists, through the newspaper that was published in Canada, the UK Times. So I was surprised; how could I go? And I phoned that newspaper man, and they said, "Oh, yes, you're interested?" "Yes, I am." "Then you can go there." "I have no relatives." "It doesn't matter, you can go and stay in North Korea for weeks." That's why I applied to visit North Korea. And (inaudible) '81, and so I went to Beijing, and there I met a North Korean ambassador, papers, and I got visas, and I finally went to Pyongyang. At that time, our group was only four from America.

So (inaudible) and so we went to Pyongyang and (inaudible) and, oh, (inaudible). And came back to Los Angeles, but I was very critical of how it was in North Korea, because one morning, when I go out, we (inaudible) the guide, and schoolchildren were praying, and their backs were under the trees. And I was curious what they were eating, what kind of food they were taking in the lunchbox. And so I ask one of the children, "Can I see your lunchbox?" And he showed me. It was rice and some (inaudible), and so I recognized (inaudible), the [padawan] gave me a warning: "Don't do that. If you do that again, I might kick you out." I came back, and we had some meeting, recording, and then my slide and my impression of North Korea. But I told them the good side, and some critical side, but not all of them, because at that time in Los Angeles, the anti-North Korean movement was stalled, and --



00:14:47

CLINE:

Right, this where I wanted to go.



00:20:32

CHOI:

Yeah, and the (inaudible), they blamed the North Korean government. So I couldn't join them, and also I couldn't give them some stuff they can use. Anyway, I kept the [stone] in my hutch, but [Kim San Gon], the ex-mayor, one night he invited me, "Dr. Choi, could you come to my house, and just show you a slide again, and telling the insider story frankly to me." (laughter) So I told him everything, and he (laughter), and said, "Oh, you are an honest man. You are the first man I heard the real situation on those Koreans." So I was glad.

Then at that time, you know [Yun Ham Bon] -- he is exiled from South Korea, and secretly sailed over the Pacific Ocean, and landed in the shallows. And this guy finally came down to Los Angeles, and we met him around 1982. Then he suggested to do some kind of active, official movement in overseeing -- to organize, some kind of organizations. That's why we established [Min Jok Hak Byoy] in Korean. Later, in English, it woudl be translated as "Korean Resource Center." That was maybe 1983. [Min Jok] means "nation," or Korean people, and [Hak Byoy] is "school."

Historically, that name is not new. When Korea was occupied by Japan in 1910 or before 1905, at that time, many Koreans, they couldn't resist the influence of Japan, so they went across the border and went to Manchuria. And in Manchuria, they established a school, and they recruited young people and gave them Korean history and Korean language and Korean spirit to fight against the Japanese invasion. And that is Min Jok Hak Byoy, the nation of schooling. But they're scared (inaudible). So we, in Los Angeles, we needed such a school, because many Koreans living in Los Angeles, they are all brainwashed by the American education, and the South Korean government view, not unified total Korean view.

So we needed North Korea and South Korea as one unit and one country and one history. So we had to establish again, not with an anti-Communist eye, but with a unified Korean view, we have to review the past history or past of the government, since 1945. And before that also, what America did for Korea in the 20th century, and before that 19th century, what America did for the Korea dynasty, we have to review history again and again. So we need some kind of a building or some kind of a place to meet together or study together, you know? That's why we rented a small place and put the sign in Korean, Min Jok Hak Byoy, and we studied.



00:20:44

CLINE:

How did you meet this individual? I mean, he made it to Seattle, he came down to LA; how did he begin to network with other like-minded Koreans once he got here?



00:22:53

CHOI:

Yes, because this guy, [Yun Han Bone] -- Mr. Yun -- very younger than me; he was born in 1948, but he already got all the information, who is doing some kind of anti-South Korean government activities. And Kim San Gon, the ex-mayor, also he was very generous, and he gave him hospitality, because he invited, Mr. Yun, to his house, and allowed him to stay with him several months. And through that, Mr. Kim, Mayor Kim, because I was there often, and eventually got together, and he got some information about me.

Because at that time, already I came from basically North Korea, and he also saw my slide, and so he liked me. And this way, he later, when the school was organized, he asked me, "Oh, Dr. Choi, you should be the first (inaudible) chairman." So I said, "Oh, I have no such (inaudible), so -- but I cannot do that." But he said -- he insisted. "(inaudible) you, you become a chairman of the board members." So I was a chairman of the board members. So I worked (inaudible), and I learned a lot. Because when I was in school, we never heard about (inaudible) agreement. Do you know that?



00:22:57

CLINE:

Yeah, I've heard of this, yeah.



00:25:17

CHOI:

(inaudible). But I was -- not for me at that time. And America betrayed Korea, and Japan defied -- make (inaudible) easily, but America (inaudible). And we can -- we started the education first, and then eventually organized a young generation association. And he was (inaudible) schools later, and there he also made a branch. And that's -- young Korean united organization, in all of the states. Like New York, Chicago, Philadelphia. And he (inaudible), and met there and organized. So later, he could do kind of a national organization, and we [shouted] against the dictator (inaudible). And when Kim [Day Joon] was -- (inaudible). And very active, because they shouted, "Move (inaudible) army from South Korea." And we made a placard, and most of the Koreans said, "Oh, they're Communist groups."



00:25:28

CLINE:

Yeah. This is why -- you're walking right into my next question here. What was the perception of what you were doing by the majority of the Korean community here?



00:25:43

CHOI:

Yes. The majority of the community, they don't understand what the (inaudible) end up doing, because they thought they are Communiist --



00:25:44

CLINE:

Sympathizers?



00:26:51

CHOI:

Yeah, centers. Because Min Jok does not use often -- the word Min Jok. But North Korea, they like it very much. So Min Jok Hak Byo, from the name of the school, they [smell] North Korea. And also, Mr. Yun, they didn't understand, you know, even though he said he came from South Korea, escaping the [Chun Do Huan] persecution, and in the Los Angeles area, people understood, no, no; how could he come without any documentation over the Pacific Ocean and come to America? Maybe he was planted by North Korean agents.



00:26:53

CLINE:

Suspicion.



00:27:35

CHOI:

Yeah, suspicious. And they accused him, yeah. And what they say is that he is a radical, because Chun Do Huan is a popular in the American Government, and we have to destroy the South Korean government, and we should (inaudible) North Korea, and prepare for unification, et cetera. At that time, it was very eye-opening, a new voice. But eventually, they understoood that this is a Communist agent, so they didn't like that.



00:28:36

CLINE:

Yeah, really. So what -- this is a big question, I know; maybe you can give us a general answer. If you can summarize, perhaps, particularly based on your travel to North Korea -- what is it that you think -- or let's say, what was it, do you think, that was the incorrect perception, the misperception, on the part of South Koreans, particularly those who are now no longer in South Korea and who are now here -- what do you think the misperceptions most commonly were about North Korea that needed to be addressed? What did they need to know?



00:34:38

CHOI:

I'm not sure this is the correct answer or not, but I understood North Korea as no freedom, there was no freedom, even though the government, they broadcasted that all people were living in a paradise. But what I understood and what I saw were the general people, the common people, they're not enjoying their private freedoms. So always worrying (inaudible), afraid of some authority. That kind of thing, I sensed in North Korea. And some facilities, like the subway, was beautiful. At that time, South Korea was known as a waste, and if I say North Korea had a very beautiful subway, then they may put me in jail, because (inaudible) North Korea.

So anyway, these two, the North and the South, the top political level -- they maybe have some information. But the down, they totally let go of correct information showing or allowing us to understand or know the situation in North Korea. If we hear protesting from North Korea, immediately a South Korean agent catches and puts them in jail, their way of doing that, the North Korean agent, et cetera. So in South Korea, they do not have correct information about North Korea, but in North Korea, they have very skillful propaganda; they always overemphasize doing something -- a fancy was to consider for South Koreans. And even now -- just look at the South Korean labor movement leaders, you know?

They visit North Korea, and they praise the North Korean leaders. They just read through papers, you know? Idealogically, maybe they're correct. All capitalists should be kicked out, and the labor, we have to unite then to begin to build a better country than this one. Without capital money, how can they build such a better country? Recently, the car company, they made a big strike, and they couldn't export cars to America because the laborers made the demonstration, and some kind of sabotage. And they're making lots and lots of loss to the South Korean economy. So still, South Korea is divided, and the left and the right are still fighting.

But it is almost 25 years ago when I visited North Korea, even though know, thousands and thousands of students or people from South Korea, they visited South Korea, and after 19 -- no, 2000, June, I can get in friends to visit North Korea, and (inaudible), and since then North Korea and South Korea seemed to be getting along well, but now, you know, everything is [crooked]. And even though Kim Jong Il was invited to come to South Korea, he didn't keep that promise, and Kim didn't want to go back to North Korea again, but they didn't allow to come again, and they have these, North Korea, the big issue on the face of the world.



00:34:41

CLINE:

Right, shooting off missiles.



00:34:43

CHOI:

Yeah.



00:35:02

CLINE:

Wow. So give me an idea of who some of the people were, and what kind of people they were, who were involved in the Korean Resource Center when it started? Who were some of the people like you who supported it, or --



00:35:32

CHOI:

Yeah. In the beginning, we -- like Yun, Mr. Yun -- very much. (inaudible), [Mr. Lily], was one of us, and another, [Hong Hu Huan], have you heard of him? No, all right. Huan, Mr. Huan, is Yun's very close friend.



00:35:36

CLINE:

Oh, oh, this was the minister? He was a minister?



00:36:10

CHOI:

Not minister. That was Minister Hong, but this guy is the same age as Mr. Yun. And Mr. Yun met this -- his age group, Mr. Hong, because Hong's mother was elder of Minister Hong's church. So (inaudible) Mr. Hong, you know?



00:36:11

CLINE:

Right.



00:38:21

CHOI:

And so this Yun convered Hong -- he was a carpenter, you know, and a (inaudible) teacher. And totally revolutioned the idea about the Christianities. And so Huanmother, Mrs. Huan, was one of the church elders, and didn't like this Yun, because her eldest son suddenly became anti-Christian. And also the Minister Hong also didn't like Mr. Yun. But Mr. Yun's idea is this: Christianity is some kind of idea going with -- making imperialism through all of the world. Whenever they would invade the country, they're already saying, (inaudible), but later became Americanized. Such a view that Mr. Yun had. And so his Huan easily accepted his ideas, and became very close friends, and they're still -- he is a lawyer to Mr. Yun. Right now, Yun, after 12 years in America went back to Korea, but he has physical problems; he is suffering from eczema and emphysema, because he was --



00:38:22

CLINE:

A smoker --



00:39:00

CHOI:

Smoker, yeah; very, very heavy smoker. That made him an emphysema patient. I think, yeah, he is (inaudible) in hometown, near hometown [of Hanju], but not active now. (inaudible) fighting for his health.



00:39:29

CLINE:

So you've basically kind of said this already, but maybe more specifically -- could you characterize the point of view of most Korean-Americans then during this time? What was their -- I mean, you made it clear that they were suspicious of you and thought you were Communist sympathizers. What would be the standard political point of view for most Korean-Americans, and most immigrants who had come during the 70s and 80s?



00:44:02

CHOI:

They had almost the same understanding most South Koreans had, because the South Korean government controls all the news medias, and basically one way of news to the peoples. So they were educated as anti-Communists, and so anti-Communist was the best way we survive, and the Americans was the best country, so we have to follow, and (inaudible) the Americans have during the Korean War, and so we have to always keep the loyalty to the Americans. So they're simple, the South Korean people; they are educated that way. So Americans are our best friends, and we have to be loyal to Americans.

Also, we have to be loyal to South Korea, and we have to kill, or do our best to remove, North Korea from our minds. But the big difference is this: the Korean Resource Center, like me -- no, no; not that way. We, Korean, North Korea, South Korea, is one Korea, and so we have to embrace North Korea. So northern part, also our fatherland; the southern part, also our fatherland. Anyway, near future, or a generation later, we have to have one nation, one country, one history. To do that, we have to have a corrected view and the right understanding, and what's doing the Americans right now -- so we have to criticize the American government, what it's doing for Korea.

It's very curious, even now, because Bush -- he didn't like North Korea anyway, and he already criticized North Korea, and they tried to change the leadership or change the political systems in North Korea. But the South Korean government, they protest the war, (inaudible) Communist government. Kim [Day Jo], and his next president (inaudible), are not now here. These two presidents -- the South Korean people understand that way. They are already too far to North Korea -- too close to North Korea, incorporating North Korea too much. But a few years ago, the South Korean people, they enjoyed or helped these two presidents, but now -- it changed a lot.

And when I've seen newspaper -- even youngsters in South Korea now criticizing these presidential governments, and the same (inaudible), so they're changing. So in the 80s, when I was in [borat] -- yeah, more typical sentiment, that line. North Korea should be down, and the South Korean government is OK, and America doing good; we have to cooperate with America, whatever the Americans do.



00:44:12

CLINE:

Right, right. So how did this affect your relationships in the Korean community as a whole, personally?



00:48:53

CHOI:

Personally, I got very mad, in fact. Because even though I say nothing, they regard me as dangerous, and so they do not approach to me. And even though I'm here as a dentist, I think I got a lot lost because the patients -- the rumors. "Don't go there; he's an ex-Communist." Like that -- Communist. But for me, it doesn't matter, because still, I have -- my way is not far from the correct ways, because we have to go the right way, making America our good friends. And we are peacemakers, and we have a good relationship, bridge or road, between Korea and America. Not national interest -- national interests are worth fighting.

Americans are pursuing their own national interests too much. Then small countries -- always sufferings, victimizing. That, I don't like it. At that time, we have to shout, and give warning to our government. "Please don't let them. Please don't do that." But our voices are too small; no one hears. But I think it's -- and most Americans, they do not understand Korea. So I think we are here as good ambassadors, Korean ambassador, to let them understand the situation of Korea, Korean history or Korean culture or background, whatever. And also, when we go to Korea, we represent the Americans, the situation of the Americans.

Because most friends in South Korea, they regard me as an American, not a Korean, because 30 years later, everything changed. And I have the same image of Korea 30 years before, but now, everything changes in South Korea, you know? They adjusted, they live in a new environment. I do not understand what they do. (laughter) So when I talk to say -- they understand different ways. But anyway, my role is very limited, but my -- ideally, ideally I want to be a peacemaker, and I want to be a good bridgework between these Americans and Koreans. So this is my life. If I pursue more (inaudible), or more activities -- writing or whatever I can do, I do that. And I have children [tear against] the Korean things. And they do not understand; they do not like to hear the things from me.



00:48:54

CLINE:

(laughter) Naturally.



00:50:28

CHOI:

Yes, (inaudible) me now. Because even my family, my grandson, my children -- they do not want the Korea. Who else in America wants Korean things? And the newspaper always creates the troublemakers. So that's not correct; that's not the things that we want. If we have understanding, every country becomes our good friends. So even Mexico and America, Canada, America -- all over. America is very, very important positions, even in the [revenue of Israel]. I think America is doing not our role well. We should push more to Israel to stop that kind of massacres and wars, and find out some peaceful way to coexist, and [make peace the wars], but Bush is attacking people, our president. Even though he is different from his father Bush.



00:50:41

CLINE:

Did you see, from your perception, a different way of handling, or a different point of view, in previous American administrations, toward the problem in North and South Korea?



00:51:49

CHOI:

Yeah. Carter's or Clinton's -- they tried to understand the situation of North Korea, and do some kind of a dialogue. But this Bush government has totally ignored or [flinched], and just -- Axis of Evil. And they did not talk. So North Korea understands, it's not the time to talk with the Americans, because this Bush should go out; two years or three years later, he steps down, and a new administration forms, and that time, maybe they're going to talk with America again; they're just awaiting the time. So -- and everything at the time.



00:52:06

CLINE:

Yeah. You suggested a little while ago the impact of your point of view on your family -- what was your family's take on your involvement in this sort of political area? Were they sympathetic at all or not?



00:53:37

CHOI:

They understand what I'm doing, and they allow me -- "Oh, Dad, do whatever you want to do;" they don't care. So I took my wife to North Korea once, we went together, and suddenly, after she came back, she became an anti-North Korea person. Before, she was sympathized -- sympathetic to North Korea, because she heard what I said, and she understood -- maybe you misjudged it, or not -- saw the correct thing. But I took her to North Korea, and stayed around two weeks, and we came back, and after that -- very, very anti-North Korea. So we [three] see and hear with their own eyes, our attitude or understanding could change. But if they do not have such experience and conception --



00:54:10

CLINE:

Whoa. I think we'll have to take a break here. Let me start up again. Before we were interrupted by that lovely sound, you were talking about your wife's opinion after having traveled to North Korea with you, and the importance of understanding based on personal experience, before arriving at a point of view. She became anti-North Korean, you said.



00:56:33

CHOI:

Oh, yes. She saw some kind of -- inside the living of the people's, and hypocrisy of the North Korean governments. What they say and the real life of the people is totally different, and she saw by her naked eyes. And when she talked with North Korean officials, they openly asked her some kind of bribe, bribery. For example, the guy who did it asked, "Why don't you bring some American cigarettes?" We couldn't understand such things. How can you ask American cigarettes from us? My wife, she protested. And they say, anti-America -- "America is evil," they're shouting, "but still we like American cigarettes; we like to smoke American cigarettes." They're hypocritical. My wife totally [agrees]. Even 30 years of [college dictator], and they couldn't change the brain. It's such a [asynchrocies] she didn't understand.



00:56:36

CLINE:

How many times did you travel to North Korea?



00:58:44

CHOI:

I traveled, totally, [4]. In 1981, that was the first, and in 1989, that was another one. And 1999 -- I tried to (inaudible) as members, delegates, from some groups in America. So now, in this area, there are many so-called pro-North Korean groups there at this time, so at times to celebrate the [diversity] of their community in February, and the [adversity] of Kim Il Song in April, and another celebration in June, and another celebration in August, or whatever celebration in September. All occasions from abroad, especially from America, some delegate, they go over there and (inaudible). But they do have their [wars] (inaudible).



00:59:11

CLINE:

(laughter) Wow. And eventually, though, you were able to travel to South Korea again, despite your travels to North Korea. And you'd mentioned that it had changed so much between the time that you left and the time that you returned. How would you describe the changes that you've seen in South Korea, having returned now?



01:02:47

CHOI:

South Korea is -- if I go there, and I see they enjoy some economic [fronts]. But they have no brain, I think. They just think memories of [managing good], (inaudible), much is good. And they despise not having enough money on their terms. And they don't care to label; very egoistic, very selfish. All people, all generations, all groups -- they're fighting each other for their own groups. They do not see as a whole as a society or a whole country, especially the North and the South, but don't care. Even in the South.

So every section, they are fighting each other for their small gains, for their own interests. So I think that kind of country has no future, even though South Korea, at least they enjoy economics, a very advanced country. But spiritually, they were -- ethically-speaking, there is corruption, too much corruption. Even churches, they're corrupt. And all politicians, they think only of their own interests, nothing of the future of the nation. So I am disappointed with South Korea.

But what can I do? I can do nothing. So even though I live in America, I think that South Korea is my fatherland, and North Korea is also my fatherland, but I was in South, because my hometown is in the South. But North, there's too much left, too much left right now; South is too much of a right, and they are fighting still each other, they do not understand each other. And in the North, there's [a poverty line], in the South there's too much. They have (inaudible), but they don't care about it, helping people. So once more, I'm disappointed in South Korea.



01:03:15

CLINE:

Yeah. And then how would you compare the changes in South Korea with the newer arrivals and more recent generations of immigrants of Koreans to Los Angeles, and how would you describe that impact on Los Angeles, on Koreatown and the Korean community here, if any?



01:08:10

CHOI:

Right now, economically, the South Korean money, they're flowing the Los Angeles, and they are building or purchasing high-rise buildings, and developing and investing -- because when America opened the door, if you had like $1 million to invest, in America, then our government, the American government, allowed them to stay here on green visas, delay their citizenships. So many rich people in South Korea, they come to Los Angeles, and they invest, so eventually they can stay here. So right now, Wiltshire Boulevard and Koreatown -- very, very rich people, they meet together. And recently, I read papers -- the golf country, golf club -- many Koreans, they purchased golf clubs all around the Southern California area.

One of my alumni, high school alumni, younger than me, purchased two. So they made it rich, and they're purchasing real estate. And they came to Southern California like a second-home kind of careers. But, yeah, that is good or bad? I don't know, again. [I got to watch.] But anyway, South Korean, now a different problem, and North Korean refugees, they are coming to Los Angeles also, and the North Koreans, they escaped North Korea, and (inaudible) China, and through China, then coming to America; the Bush allowed them. More ambitious people bribed, and they stay in maybe [ellison pot], and in the future, more North Korean people are coming to America, maybe.

And so Bush thinks they're destabilizing the North Korean society, and so eventually, the government should collapse, because more and more people are running away from the country and coming to America. But I don't know if it is successful or not, but the future in the Los Angeles area -- Koreans from North Korea and from South Korea, Koreans who were born in America, you see? So different origins, mixing together and creating, maybe, a new community, I don't know how they'll make it. But in the beginning, some kind of [disharmonies].

Of course, the Koreans who had money who came from South Korea, who has [basis] and some kind of connection with the South Korean government, with the South Korean economy, upper-class -- they are dominating everything, not just in those areas. Decision-making, whatever, you know. But a small group, small percentage, a minority of Koreans, a different idea, different origins -- and that's [always happy] with that.



01:08:47

CLINE:

You left the LA area, Koreatown area, and throughout this period, through the 80s, you were living in Glendale, which is outside of LA, to some degree. And I would think is clearly a different sort of community, in terms of how it relates to the Korean community in LA, certainly Koreatown. What was it like living in Glendale after living closer to Koreatown?



01:10:15

CHOI:

Yeah, Glendale is just a [bath town], in other words. We had a house in Glendale, but our living, our activities -- everything is in Los Angeles. Glendale is just a (inaudible) -- 20 minutes of driving. So actually, even though I lived in Glendale, I didn't join with our neighbors, who is not Korean. So especially, in Los Angeles, I don't know the neighbors, so it's not such an inter-relationship like that. But even though the Koreans, now, they are not very -- not unfriendly. When we arrived in Los Angeles, we were very glad when we met a Korean in the street; you would say hi, hello, how are you, da-da-da. Now, we just ignore.



01:10:16

CLINE:

You just what?



01:13:34

CHOI:

Ignore. Too many Koreans. So -- but I, if I go mountain hiking, and I see a non-Korean, I say hello or good morning; they respond hello, good morning. They smile sometimes. But some Koreans, still -- they do not -- making any saluting. So maybe it's a poor social education, ethics. So some Koreans are very uneducated. That's why some shop owners agree, in the black community, they have some kind of progress. They do not greet, they're not smiling tothe customers; they look at them suspiciously. Shooting, killing, things happen. So Koreans, right now -- the first generation Koreans, there are many problems (inaudible), because some of them, they are not educated, aware, they're too much money-oriented.

They do whatever the money comes in on. That kind of Korean, I hate. I don't like that. So I think this generation will go, then second generation comes. But anyway, I met the old Korean generation, who came in -- before the 1940s. They had a Korean community also; now they are all over 70, so they are more seniors, and one by one, they are passing away. But they have a different idea about the Korean. The first pioneers who left Korea and lived in America, but they don't understand the new Korean generation here. So many, many gifts. When you came to America and they had their own different (inaudible), the upper, senior (inaudible).



01:13:44

CLINE:

What kind of changes on the Korean community and on these relationships do you think the 1992 uprising had? How would you describe the effect that had?



01:13:49

CHOI:

(inaudible). The riot, you mean?



01:13:52

CLINE:

Yeah, in 1992, right.



01:15:08

CHOI:

Lots of change, yeah. So some of them, they understood, we have to live together with other ethnic groups, the black peoples, they are a brother also, and we have to live together. And so partially, things happened because some church -- they took some [brotherly] interest in Korea, and gave some good hospitality, they showed Korea, and they came back, and they liked Korea very much, and they even -- you know, America, sometimes they serve Korean food, (inaudible), and they liked it. And recently, the Bush government -- now they're emphasizing learning foreign language, like in Korea and China -- whatever. Give money to the student. You know that?



01:15:09

CLINE:

No.



01:15:10

CHOI:

No? You should know that.



01:15:14

CLINE:

I obviously should know that, yeah.



01:16:07

CHOI:

Because now, Bush governments -- they understood. English is not enough. So to understand the world, and so we have to educate the young generation, who can speak other languages. So [gate-keeping] the colleges. So many young (inaudible) student, they are proud to get the scholarship, and after that, they're hired in the state department. So that's a good idea, to promote the understanding of other cultures. Even though America is popular, English is not enough.



01:16:48

CLINE:

In the wake of the '92 uprising, the Korean community responded by forming a lot of new non-profit organizations aimed at providing aid and services to the community. What kind of role do you think those were and are playing, and what's your opinion on the kind of work that's going on with some of these non-profit organizations aimed at helping the Korean community and the Koreatown area?



01:19:20

CHOI:

That -- I'm not qualified to give you a good answer, because I have a lack of information, and how that's [fund] the Korean community, to coming out to helping their communities. But recently, I heard the big church in the Korean community, they're donating huge money and distributing to small groups who are helping the community, and other ethnic communities also. That is going to change, because, for example, [Yung Nak] Church is one of the biggest churches in the Korean community, and the ministry changed, and the new minister came, and after that the church policy will change a lot.

Because they have lots of types, offerings in the church, and before they couldn't use that money. But now, that money is distributed for the community. So that's one example. Another church also followed in that, so slowly, slowly, the Koreans now, they're realizing this is the place we have to live together, with each other. So black people, Latino people, and we have to work together. And that's why right now, the Korean Resource Center, the youngsters, they're cooperating with Latino and black peoples, they have some kind of a shift, an inter-racial issue, we are going out and starting together. That's good.



01:19:34

CLINE:

How did the change in the regime in South Korea awhile back affect the focus of the activities of the Korean Resource Center?



01:20:55

CHOI:

No, they don't care about the Resource Center, because the Resource Center, after Yun went home, we changed a lot. Because we don't care now about North Korean or South Korean issues; only focusing on helping the Korean community in America, and incorporating with neighbor communities. So every time there was some kind of election issues comes up, some kind of environmental issue -- whatever, you know -- if we're going to [misrepresent] the youngsters, they don't really get involved in such a movement. So the Korea community now no longer thinks (inaudible) Communist; changed a lot. And recently, the director of the Korean community and the Korean Resource Center, Mr. -- he's also Yun -- some kind of work -- small reward from [KCT].



01:20:58

CLINE:

Oh, really? Wow.



01:21:37

CHOI:

Because, you know, the KCT, the broadcasting company, they gave him (inaudible) award. So even a big newspaper in Koreatown, they always give space on the Korean [missile] centers, and -- excuse me. So many changes happen.



01:21:41

CLINE:

Yeah, a change in perception for sure.



01:22:32

CHOI:

But now, new groups, pro-North Korean, new groups emerged after the 2000 -- June 15 -- so they are now actively moving -- so called negotiation jobs in North Korea, in America. And they recently, the heads -- their leaders, [Sonu Haga, Harold Sonu] -- have you heard about this?



01:22:35

CLINE:

No.



01:22:53

CHOI:

He is a big guy, and he was born in 1918, and he was a minister --- not minister, a professor [for Missouri]. He loved American books, and now he is 88 years old.



01:22:55

CLINE:

What's his name again?



01:22:58

CHOI:

Harold [Harrogan, Sonu].



01:23:01

CLINE:

Oh, OK. H. Cooke Sonu, this is the same guy?



01:24:42

CHOI:

Yeah. His father. And he made a Korea peace fund. And $25,000 fund, he donated. So we had the first fund (inaudible), whatever. And there are groups. Because Sonu, Dr. Sonu, he received one of the greatest honors from North Korea, also he reached South Korea, and got the reception from the South Korean president. So he is recognized from both governments, South Korea, North Korea. Their postions looks good; that Korean Resource Center of (inaudible), because in the Korean Resource Center, they don't care about such a political issue now; they're doing the American issues, protecting the right of the poor peoples. Human rights. So, yeah, doing such things for the Korean resource center.



01:25:05

CLINE:

Yeah, maybe -- I don't know how much knowledge you have of this -- but who are the people, particularly the youth, I guess, nowadays, who are frequenting the Korean Resource Center, and taking advantage of its activities? What kind of people are going there?



01:25:23

CHOI:

I think the young generations, yeah. Right now, the director, Yun, and his wife is [Li Han Su]. And she has another organization, [Nakasak].



01:25:25

CLINE:

Nakasak, uh-huh.



01:27:57

CHOI:

And like I said, a national organization. So they both shared the information together, and working together, and organizing their young generations. They have some kind of volunteers coming to the resource centers, and she's (inaudible). And maybe you have to hear -- not that (inaudible), home. Lady home. She was once Nagasak executive director; recently, she met Bush President also, and got selected as one of the Asian ladies in the New York area -- anything like that -- because she organized so many people, immigration, a demonstration against the Bush government.

We related before, when she was here. So in words -- in one words -- this Yun Han Bon, that came to America in 1981 or '82, and even though he left 12 years later, he did a good job, and left a good effect on the Korean community in America, for the young generation, not the old generation. And even though some of the old generation like me was cooperating with him, but not interested (inaudible), because their head was already so hard, understanding (inaudible).



01:28:57

CLINE:

Wow. Yeah. So now this leads me into sort of the big questions. First of all, this is -- there are two big questions here. One is, where do you see the Korean community in Los Angeles going? You've mentioned this influx of affluence, of money, into Koreatown from South Korea, from wealthier South Koreans. There's certainly a younger generation; there are a lot of now American-born Koreans, Korean-Americans who have grown up in the United States with American values, and we still have a divided Korea, North and South. Where do you see -- first the Korean-American community in Los Angeles going?



01:30:11

CHOI:

But still, the Korean community in Los Angeles is dominated by the South Korean, wealthy Koreans, who live in this area. They [leader] at this moment, but the young generation was born in America, they do not follow then 100%, I think; still some gap. So second-generation Koreans, they're too much Americanized. So they have their own ideas about the Korean community. Did you hear, 1.5 generation?



01:30:15

CLINE:

Yeah, it's 1.5 generation, yeah.



01:31:49

CHOI:

Do we -- I am the first generation, but my youngsters, children who brought (inaudible) America, they are 1.5 generation, generation gap already there. And second generation, another generation gap. So this second, third relations now -- I don't know. Most of them are Americanized. So even right now, the first generation Koreans try to influence them, Korean culture, Korean value systems, to their grandchildren, but I think they are not successful. But still, some young generations are smart; they inherited Korean culture and Korean values [rapidly], so they're hope for the Korean and the American societies. And with the (inaudible) ceremony, seasons, maybe young Korean students -- good scholarship, [validations -- valedicton] --



01:31:51

CLINE:

Yeah, valedictorian, yeah.



01:32:51

CHOI:

Yeah, valedictorian. I heard them, and they would go to Harvard or (inaudible), many [percent], they would go there. So Korea is smart, if I say so. But anyway, we can hope that the right way for the peaceful coexistence (inaudible). That is my dream, because we have to preserve this one earth, and we have to live together happily, peacefully, and for the future generation also, considering each other.



01:33:24

CLINE:

And clearly, as a parent yourself, you have to understand the role of parents in all this. What other sorts of forces or entities in the community do you think will be the most influential in shaping the values and the point of view of the younger generation of Koreans as they grow up here in this country?



01:34:39

CHOI:

Maybe social change. Most Koreans, most youngsters just follow the change of the societies. But I expect some philosopher or some thinking, some critical leaders, but they are not popular anyway. So I don't know. This generation -- [where to go]. This is not only for the Korean community; the whole American society also -- where this America goes. The Bush-style American -- we don't like it. So young American -- what they think about. How do they build a new kind of an America? So let's see what the next generation brings?



01:34:51

CLINE:

Right. The Korean community is still perceived, anyway, as being very much centered in the church. How much of a role do you think the church might play in this?



01:36:04

CHOI:

Yes. Church -- they have problems. Because most first-generation -- they go and donate, offering the church life they enjoy. But second, third generation -- they are not so eager to go to Korean church. And even though they go to church, they do not speak Korean, and so English-speaking church is developing, or a new program for the English -- yes, now, one by one, they're establishing for the second generations. So the number has decreased. So in the future -- right now, several hundred Korean children around the Los Angeles area, but they all may be gone (inaudible) later. So the church role, yes -- I'm not optimistic.



01:36:07

CLINE:

And what about --



01:37:05

CHOI:

Because the [universal], you go to the universal, and the church is just empty. America, also -- Caucasians' church -- empty. So the new Korean first generation, they're purchasing (inaudible), but alone. Even now, they're there, but one decade later, who knows what happens? So Christianity is declining; the church role also may be not good enough. But some say, no, no, not that way. Some churches are growing, the big church, influencing church, big, big, big church -- they're growing. So they will stay.



01:37:34

CLINE:

And what about Koreatown? Where do you think Koreatown is headed, now that it has new money flowing in and still, of course, despite the Korean business here, fewer Koreans perhaps living in the area, as most of the people with the money don't live in Koreatown, of course; they live out in other areas surrounding Los Angeles -- what do you think the future is?



01:38:47

CHOI:

Yes, Koreatown -- maybe business centers. But wealthy Koreans, they could purchase more nice, expensive houses in the suburbs, so they do not live in Koreatown. But recently, the new trend is -- new condominiums, new apartments are high-rising buildings, renting in Koreatown. Because maybe Koreans, now seniors who live in another state, they're coming back to Los Angeles, because they heard Koreatown, Los Angeles especially -- very nice place, because everything is convenient. Market and the church and they do not worry about getting along driving. So they're flocking together to the new Koreatown. So that is the new trend.



01:38:50

CLINE:

So you expect that we'll see more older Koreans moving --



01:38:51

CHOI:

Yeah, more Koreans --



01:38:52

CLINE:

-- moving into the area?



01:38:54

CHOI:

-- moving in, yeah.



01:39:02

CLINE:

And how do you think they'll get along with the poorer non-Koreans who are living in the area? Do you think it will matter?



01:39:36

CHOI:

I think they do not live well with non-Korean peoples, because the wealthy old Koreans, they do not speak foreign languages, and they do not have any interest in exchanging their cultures, because already they have their own things they enjoy. Family and friends, that's enough for them.



01:39:37

CLINE:

That's enough, right.



01:39:44

CHOI:

So once they all pass away -- no one cares. (laughter)



01:39:51

CLINE:

(laughter) So you came to this country in your 30s, and you --



01:39:53

CHOI:

Not 30s.



01:39:54

CLINE:

Well, you were 36 --



01:39:55

CHOI:

Oh, yes, my age was 36.



01:40:03

CLINE:

Yes, you were 36. And so you've roughly lived half your life in Korea and half your life here in the United States.



01:40:07

CHOI:

Exactly.



01:40:14

CLINE:

What do you think it means to be Korean-American, or Korean and American?



01:41:33

CHOI:

Now, I am very happy, because it is my [ability], because as you'll see, my health is not so good, but I'm not 70 years old, so God gave me 70 [with his grace], and during the 35 years in America, my children are all grown up, and they had a good education, and now they have good jobs, and they're living their own ways. And my grandchildren are growing -- so nothing to complain. So God was good to me -- God is good to me. So to everybody, God should be good. But you know, some tragedy or some misfortunes around, neighbor, I will sympathize with them, but for me, it is good, and I am very satisfied with that.



01:42:18

CLINE:

And being both Korean and American, one of the things I hear, for example, particularly since you've traveled back to Korea, is not only seeing the changes in Korea, but the ways in which one has changed being a citizen of the United States during the interim period. How can you define yourself at this point? Would you consider yourself Korean, Korean-American, more Korean, more American? Is there a difference; is it all kind of just one unified whole? How do you perceive your identity at this point?



01:43:12

CHOI:

Well, legally, I am an American citizen. But in my mind, I am one, North and South combined, Korean. So that fatherland gave me my (inaudible). And so my father and mother, all ancestors now -- and that (inaudible). So -- and I think my graveyard is in Glendale. But I told my children -- burning the body, how do you say it?



01:43:14

CLINE:

Burying? When you bury --



01:43:15

CHOI:

Burning.



01:43:16

CLINE:

Oh, burning. Cremating.



01:43:45

CHOI:

Cremating, yeah. Cremate my body, whatever. Just get it all over the world. My spirit wants to be a free man, and [reverse] (inaudible). Even though I died in America, my spirit should move around all over the world.



01:43:55

CLINE:

And what do you think -- what do you see the future for reunification between North and South Korea at this point?



01:44:58

CHOI:

Maybe someday, North Korea will collapse. And I do not expect it in the near future, but anyway, that system should not stay. And then, we have to build a new Korea, that's the main task for the Korean peoples. So America and Russia and China and Japan -- their interests are related to the Northern part also. And so they do not allow only South Korea handle North Korea. So even though South Korea claims North Korea is our country, I think the neighbor, big brother, say, "No, no, no!" That's probably -- their own interests.



01:45:14

CLINE:

And what of the South Koreans confronting now having to deal with the North Koreans, whose situation is so much different?



01:45:16

CHOI:

Poor, yeah, very poor.



01:45:24

CLINE:

What do you think will happen there? We've seen what happened with Eastern and Western Germany, for example; I was just curious, what do you think might happen?



01:46:44

CHOI:

Eastern and Western Germany -- they are very lucky, because Western Germany had [a lot of] East Germany, before they bring such (inaudible). But right now, even now, North Korean people, they do not understand the station of South Korea, because lack of communication. East Germans, they watched TV, regular broadcasting from the west freely; they understood what was going on in West Germany. But Korean stations are totally -- North Korean people, they never can understand what's going on beyond free TV channels, because everything is fixed; the government is showing only video that South Korea, adapting from broadcasting, so they do not understand what's going on in South Korea or in other countries.



01:46:47

CLINE:

Right, anywhere else. Isolated.



01:46:58

CHOI:

Totally isolated; they have no telephone, no email. So that's (inaudible).



01:46:59

CLINE:

A real challenge.



01:47:09

CHOI:

Yeah, a real challenge. So that kind of society should go.



01:47:14

CLINE:

OK. Well, I think I'm out of questions.



01:47:15

CHOI:

What time is it now?



01:47:17

CLINE:

It's a little after 12:00?



01:47:17

CHOI:

Oh, yeah?



01:47:34

CLINE:

Yeah, this was a longer session today. So on behalf of UCLA and the Center for Oral History Research at the library there, thank you very much for talking with us, and participating in this series of interviews about the Korean community here in LA.



01:47:50

CHOI:

Thank you very much; you allowed me to talk to you and you heard my story. So this is my honor, and I'm glad; I'm very pleased. Thank you, Alex.



01:47:56

CLINE:

All right, thank you very much. And we'll continue to be in touch as the processing moves forward.



01:47:57

CHOI:

OK, yeah.





CLINE:

All right.