Interview of Julia Russell

1.1. Session 1 ( July 11, 2007)

COLLINGS

OK. Good morning, Julia. This is Jane Collings interviewing Julia Russell at her home -- oh! -- on July 11th, 2007.

RUSSELL

Hi, Jane.

COLLINGS

Hi. (laughter)

RUSSELL

Thank you so much for doing this. I am very honored and thrilled --

COLLINGS

Well, you're so welcome.

RUSSELL

-- to be involved in this.

COLLINGS

Good.

RUSSELL

So do you want to start by asking me questions, or --

COLLINGS

Yeah, yeah.

RUSSELL

-- should I just start talking?

COLLINGS

Yeah. Let's start -- we're going to -- with the chronology. And I'll just simply ask you where and when you were born to kick things off.

RUSSELL

OK. I was born in New York City on March 26th, 1936. And I lived in New York City until I was three, and then moved to Tarrytown, New York -- not actually in the town, but outside the town in an old, old farmhouse. Actually, Sleepy Hollow farmhouse -- the farmhouse in "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow."

COLLINGS

Oh, the actual farmhouse?

RUSSELL

Yes.

COLLINGS

Good gosh! (laughter)

RUSSELL

And it was kind of spooky. (laughter)

But I think -- you know, as I think back on my history, I think of the connections that I've had with nature, and in fact, really, my only memories of New York City are, oddly enough, the park that was near to the apartment that I lived in. And I do remember, I can almost feel my little snowsuit and stuff as I walked with my mother to this park. And I remember the trees, and there was a big rock there, and you could see the Hudson River beyond. And so...I don't remember the inside of the apartment building or really anything else, but I do re- have images of that park. So even very early on, nature had made an impact on me.

And then when we moved to Tarrytown, the house that we lived in was really -- it wasn't even a suburb. It was more rural. It -- the nearest house was down a long, long, long driveway, and the house was surrounded by woods in the back, and on -- well, actually, three sides were woods, and then in front was a huge lawn, and then a big hayfield that stretched -- it looked like forever to me, at that age. And I spent a lot of time outdoors winter and summer, but especially in spring and summer, I remember -- I was an only child until five years old, and I moved there when I was three, so I had two years where I was really alone, and I played outside in nature. And I can remember I found certain places in the woods where vines crawled up and formed interior spaces underneath them.

COLLINGS

How wonderful!

RUSSELL

So I could crawl in there, and that would be my nest-home. And I would imitate the birds and the squirrels that I saw, and I would pretend to be those animals. And that was such a profound connection to nature that I think it really was the foundation for my later choice in profession or vocation. And so that was the -- I think in many ways, the most important thing about those years. I -- Joseph Chilton Pierce has a book on children and their relation -- their development and their relation to nature, and he says that children, for proper neurological development, need to bond with nature at a very, very early age. And I think I was very blessed to have parents that, though they may not have recognized that per se, did value nature and connection to nature. So I was exposed to nature from a very, very early age.

COLLINGS

Yeah. Well, let's hear something about your parents. They were living in New York City?

RUSSELL

They were. My father was a real estate broker, and my mother was a stay-at-home mom. She had been a model when she was young, before they married.

COLLINGS

Oh, wow. I've never interviewed somebody who had a model for a mom. (laughter)

RUSSELL

A mother, yes. And -- but she -- you know, at that time, stay-at-home mom was pretty typical.

COLLINGS

Pretty typical, yeah. Of course.

RUSSELL

Yeah. It was unusual, in fact, for women to be working while they were raising children. So...

Now, my father had always had the ambition to be a writer, and though he was a real estate broker, that ambition never really left him. And he was able to structure his life so that at the age of 40, he was able to retire temporarily, at which time we moved to Pennsylvania, again, to a farm area, and as he wrote and attempted to sell his writing, and ultimately attempted to change his way of making a living. Unfortunately, he was not successful.

COLLINGS

Yeah. Well, it's a tough game.

RUSSELL

It was pretty tough to try and establish himself as a published writer in three years, which is what -- the time he had. But during that period, again, I was out in nature all the time.

And so then after three years, he did have to come back to New York City, and he came -- he went back to the city first, and then six months later...you know, my mother and myself and my sister followed. And at that point, we were living on East 72nd Street, and that was a very difficult transition for me.

COLLINGS

Oh, I bet. Now, was the Sleepy Hollow farm in Pennsylvania? Is that the --

RUSSELL

No.

COLLINGS

-- move that you were referring to?

RUSSELL

Sleep Hollow farm was in -- outside of Tarrytown, New York. Yeah. And so -- oh. We were there, and then we traveled for a year, or maybe it was a little more. We traveled to Florida, and then to Mexico, and just traveled all across the country, and then settled in Pennsylvania, actually. I forgot that happened prior to the settling in Pennsylvania. And so that was an amazing experience, too, of course, traveling around the country. At that point, we traveled to Florida by train, so I got to ride overnight, you know, in one of those sleeper cars, and that was amazing. Then we got a car and traveled from Florida along the southern states to Mexico. And so it was an amazing year of travel. And then we settled in Pennsylvania.

And so then he had to come back to New York City. That was hard on him. He gave up writing, which was, I think, sad, because that was his dream. And so he, I think, felt from then on that he was a failure.

COLLINGS

Oh, what a shame.

RUSSELL

It is a shame, and it was a sad thing. That was something he said to a friend of his who told me later, when he was on his deathbed.

COLLINGS

Oh, my goodness! Oh...

RUSSELL

So...yeah. It's too bad.

But as you can see, most of my young life was spent in nature.

COLLINGS

Yeah. So was New York City their home base? Did -- there -- did they have family in New York City as well?

RUSSELL

Yes, they did. Although we didn't see much of family. His grandmother -- I mean, my grandmother, his mother -- lived in New York City. I don't remember seeing her when we lived in New York City. She would come on Thanksgiving and Christmas up to Tarrytown to the farm, to the farmhouse in Tarrytown. So that was twice a year, and that was really the only time we saw her, so...

COLLINGS

Did their parents, like, disapprove of the marriage, or something like that?

RUSSELL

No, no. The -- his father died when I was very young. I don't think I really remember him. He did a self-portrait of himself; he was a painter and a singing teacher. And so I think I remember the portrait of him; I don't think I remember him personally. He died when I was too young.

So, no, she -- he -- basically, my father disapproved of his mother. (laughter) That was why we didn't see much of her. So that was kind of sad. But -- and then my mother's mother died when she was 16, and we saw her father only occasionally. He remarried to someone she did not approve of, and so I think we saw him maybe twice that I remember, ever. And he was a mathematics teacher, and so he and my mother didn't get on too much because -- too well because she was more of an artistic person, and I don't think she met his expectations, and she found his expectations oppressive. Yeah, so...

COLLINGS

So were your -- your parents were both born in the United States?

RUSSELL

Yes, they were.

COLLINGS

And your grandparents as well?

RUSSELL

Well, actually, my grandmother -- my father's mother was born in England, and my heritage is English and Welsh, the main components in my background. And on my mother's side, she was invited to join the Daughters of the Revolution -- of the American Revolution --

COLLINGS

Oh my goodness!

RUSSELL

-- so she has, you know, heritage way back. Now, my grandmother on my father's side always claimed that we (laughter) were related to Alexander Hamilton. Now, that's sort of, I would think, hard to trace since he was a bastard, and I don't know how you trace that lineage, unless the father is known, which may be; I don't know.

COLLINGS

Yeah, I don't either.

RUSSELL

On my mother's side, her invitation was based on the fact that we -- her line of the family was descended from Benjamin Franklin's sister's family, which was -- I don't remember her name, the sister's name, but I remember the husband's name was Stephen Homes, H-O-M-E-S. He was lieutenant in the Revolutionary Army. And...so I like to think of myself as a great-great-great-great-great-GREAT-grandniece of Benjamin Franklin. (laughter)

COLLINGS

Oh, well, that's something, isn't it?

RUSSELL

Yeah. So that's -- and you know, that's not -- it's not irrelevant to my choices in life, either, because I feel a certain sense of having to uphold something, to do something significant, to contribute. Because, you know, I've been given this gift of genes, and heritage, and I would like to contribute to that rather than not. So...that was our story.

COLLINGS

Did you have any kind of religious upbringing?

RUSSELL

Well, (laughter) that was a strange situation. My father was a very vociferous atheist. And my mother was a very quiet Episcopalian. (laughter) However, she did make an effort to get my sister and I to church on Sundays. There was a local Episcopal church. And so I did have some exposure to Sunday School, although after a certain period of time -- and I don't know -- I don't have any time measurements of this, but I do remember an inordinate number of Sunday mornings when my mother would try to start the car, and for some mysterious reason --

COLLINGS

Oh, how funny!

RUSSELL

-- it wouldn't start. Well, I think it was my father decided --

COLLINGS

How interesting!

RUSSELL

-- that he would just arrange -- rather than have a battle about it, he would just arrange to make it impossible for her to take us to Sunday School. (laughter)

So there was this back and forth between the two on religion. And so I did get some religious training, but I have to say I was very, very put off by the Episcopalian vision of God, because it remained -- reminded me too much of my father. (laughter) Not that I didn't love my father; I loved my father. But he was a typical patriarch. He was authoritarian, and he was bombastic, and he was angry a lot of the time, and he was vengeful.

COLLINGS

Oh, vengeful? That's a hard one.

RUSSELL

And that's what -- that's how the God that I learned about in Sunday School was represented to me. At least, that was the impression I got. And at a very, very early age, I said, "Uh-uh. I don't believe that this is right. I don't believe that God is like this." (laughter) And maybe it's because of my experience in nature: that I was so enchanted and enrapt by nature, and it was such a wondrous and magical and beautiful thing to me. And I felt so at home there. I thought, "No, this is not the creation of an angry and a vengeful God." It just didn't fit. And so it was only very much later in my life, in my later 30s and my 40s, I started to recreate a spiritual life for myself, which did not involve a vengeful God. (laughter) It was much different. And so --

COLLINGS

Did your sister share your -- in -- your pleasure in being outdoors?

RUSSELL

Yes, she did. She did. And she now lives in Pennsyl- in New York City -- no, no: New York state, in a town called Endwell, which (laughter) I think is a great place to spend your later years. (laughter)

COLLINGS

And what about your mother? Was she -- did she enjoy being outdoors as well?

RUSSELL

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And my father, too. We went on camping trips when I was young. And that, too, is a source of some of my most vivid memories, are those camping trips. And particularly -- for some reason, there's one image that sticks in my mind, and it was -- my father was a fisherman, and he took us out fishing a lot. And I was not a very good fisherman. I mean, I really didn't like it much. I didn't especially like putting the worms on the hook. That really was not possible for me to do. But -- and then I didn't like it when the fish were dying. That was very painful for me. So I went with him because I loved my dad, and I wanted to live up to his expectations.

But what I remember: this one incident was -- I said, "Gee, I'm thirsty." Well, here we were in the middle of this lake. And he handed me a cup and said -- and I just scooped up the water from the lake and drank it, and it was SO delicious. And now, it -- that has come back to me as...some sort of icon, because we can't do that anymore. We can't go in nature and drink --

COLLINGS

And have a drink. That's right.

RUSSELL

-- from the streams and from the lakes, and the --

COLLINGS

Right. I was just reading about the, you know, Indian -- Eskimos in the Alaskan wilderness who can not drink from streams while they're out --

RUSSELL

Is that so?

COLLINGS

-- trapping in a --

RUSSELL

That is even worse. I -- than I thought. I mean, I was thinking just in North America, but oh my gosh, how awful.

COLLINGS

Well, it has to do with oil exploration in that particular area.

RUSSELL

Oh, how... Now, to me, that is -- that symbolizes the degradation of our environment as nothing else can, somehow. Oh, how sad. So that makes me sad, too, for our young people, because that's part of the connection to nature, is realizing when you're out there -- as I was able to as a child -- there's food to eat there, if you're picking berries, and water to drink, and everything is there for us, and supports our life. And -- but no more. No more. And that's not nature. That's humankind. That's humanity that is poisoning the environment for ourselves. So...

COLLINGS

Yeah. Well, that's a very wonderful image that you --

RUSSELL

Yeah, the --

COLLINGS

-- share of just drinking from the lake. It's...

RUSSELL

Yes. It was magnificent. And the more recent experience like that that I had was -- oh, this was a long time ago, maybe ten years ago: I went to Mt. Wheeler in Nevada, and I went up above the treeline. And there are glacial streams there, and at one point -- and I was drinking from the glacial streams. But that was, you know, (laughter) several hundred yards from the origin. There was nothing between the melting glacier and me to pollute it. So I was able to do it, but... And again, that was nothing -- nothing has ever -- those two experiences, iconic for me.

COLLINGS

Yeah. So it must have been, as you say, quite a different experience living in New York City.

RUSSELL

It was. It was...it was horrendous, in a way. It took me a long time to adjust. I wrote a poem about it in high school, about the difference between living in the country -- and it was a lament. It was a lament. I don't remember it now, but I do remember writing it with a heavy pain in my heart of just longing to be in nature.

COLLINGS

Yeah. Was there anything about New York that you did enjoy?

RUSSELL

Well, I actually became an urbanite ultimately, and again, largely probably through my father's influence, because he was an urbanite. He loved the city; he loved the excitement of it, and he loved the cultural stimulation of it. And my mother was more country. And so yeah, I became...

COLLINGS

A New Yorker?

RUSSELL

A New Yorker. I became a New Yorker, and... However, what is interesting to me -- and I didn't connect it until I came out to California -- I also started to experience depressions then, which I didn't connect with separation from nature until I came to California and I was able to live again connected to nature. And lo and behold, my depressions began to disappear. And then -- with a lot of other things involved -- that's not a problem for me now.

But I do think that with all of the benefits that I think I got from being a New Yorker for those years which were really my high school years, because then I went to Bennington College in Vermont for my college years. And so that took me back into nature for half a year, you know?

COLLINGS

Because the other half was working? Is that right?

RUSSELL

That's right. They do, yeah. So they had that residential period where you're working. And --

COLLINGS

And what kind of jobs did you work at?

RUSSELL

Well, I worked largely with magazines. And Time magazine was one of the main jobs I remember. There may have been a couple of others, but the main job I remember was working in Time magazine, the big -- that big Time Building. And... But, you know, I enjoyed it, and again, I enjoyed the kind of urbane environment that it was, and that the people were urbane. And...you know, I kind of forgot about nature, except when I was in Vermont. And then -- even then, I was so focused on the intellectual stimulation that I was getting there and the intellectual work that I was doing there that I wasn't even that tuned in to nature, although I know that it had an effect on me. And -- but...

So I worked for Time magazine I think both residential terms. I only went to Bennington for two years. After the second year, my father informed me that he would not have the money to send me back.

COLLINGS

Yeah, I was wondering about that.

RUSSELL

Yeah. Now, the odd thing is that...I don't know how -- I guess I know -- yes. My teachers found out that I was not coming back the third year from, I guess, one of the students; probably one of my friends told them or something. And they arranged for a full scholarship for me.

COLLINGS

Oh, wonderful.

RUSSELL

And I didn't take them up on it.

COLLINGS

Why?

RUSSELL

Lack of self esteem. Interestingly enough.

COLLINGS

Jeez.

RUSSELL

I didn't feel worthy of it. I felt overwhelmed by their expectations, because I thought, "Oh my god -- scholarship! They're going to expect me to be really fantastic, and I don't think I am fantastic, and..."

COLLINGS

But it sounds like they already thought you were really fantastic. (laughter)

RUSSELL

Well, why didn't I recognize that? Because I wasn't seeing myself as fantastic. And who knows? I mean, one could go into -- and I have; I've been in therapy a lot in my younger years to try and untangle all that, and why I felt such low self esteem. But in any case, that was really what it was. I did not feel worthy, and I was afraid to try and live up to those expectations. And so...

So I came back to New York, and I worked at Time again for a while. But then I -- I wasn't -- I always had a talent in art, so I went to the Art Students League and...there's another school in New York for artists. I went to both of them, and I ended up starting to try and build a commercial art career. In the meantime, I worked for commercial artists, in their offices and things.

But in the meantime, I met a young man who I had originally met up in Bennington. He was going with another girl there, and then we happened to meet in New York City, and we started to see each other. And we ultimately married. And...had children, and came to California. So I never really developed the commercial art...career. I...I wasn't good at promoting myself, (laughter) which is not surprising since, you know, I had this low self esteem problem. And I didn't like promoting myself. And so I don't think I was destined to be (laughter) a commercial artist. And anyway, I wasn't that crazy about the art that I got to do as a commercial artist, you know?

COLLINGS

What were your parents encouraging you to do?

RUSSELL

They weren't, really. (pause) I think that they were traditional enough to just expect me to get married, and...even though they were kind of radical. I mean, that was something I was exposed to a lot in growing up, political discussion at home. And when their friends came over, the parties they had were all political discussion. It wasn't drinking and dancing, and, you know, all the things that make a -- many parties today. It was intellectual and political discussion. And so I never learned to small talk (laughter) for -- probably because I never saw it demonstrated. It was all serious discussion of one kind or another.

COLLINGS

And what political parties did they belong to?

RUSSELL

Well, they were Democrats, and verging on Socialist. I don't think they ever joined the Socialist party, but some of their friends were actually, Communists, and they were impacted by the McCarthy investigations and things, you know? And so they tended to be liberal but super-liberal, you know? Semi-socialist liberal. But very well-informed. That was a very, very important in both of their lives, was staying informed politically.

So that's pretty much continued in my life, except for one period of time where I had to kind of drop out because...during the Vietnam War. I just couldn't handle it. I was so opposed to that war, and I remember the day I stopped reading the newspaper, and stopped listening to the radio, and -- I don't think I had a television at that point. I might have, but... It was the picture on the front page of the Times of the children burning and running towards the camera.

COLLINGS

Yeah. That was really a beastly period, without question.

RUSSELL

And we're in another beastly period.

COLLINGS

And we're in another one. Yeah.

RUSSELL

Although for some reason or other, I seem to have the strength to keep informed now.

COLLINGS

Well, that's because the coverage is so limited. I mean, you don't have reporters and photographer running around --

RUSSELL

No, I'm not --

COLLINGS

-- in Iraq.

RUSSELL

-- I don't look at pictures, but I listen to NPR and KPFK. That's how I stay informed. But also, it's because I'm not raising young children, you know? At that time, I was raising my two children, and I had to maintain a vision of golden possibilities for life and for the world, and for their future, and... It was really important for me to -- and I couldn't do that and keep being exposed to this horrific reality that was coming through the newspapers, and radio and television.

But other than that period, I have maintained that --

COLLINGS

So what year --

RUSSELL

-- political connection.

COLLINGS

What year were you married?

RUSSELL

1957. And we traveled to Europe for a year after we married, and that was made possible by money that I received from an automobile accident that I had been involved in as a passenger, and that we pursued legally. And so I received enough compensation to, first of all, compensate my father for the hospital costs and everything, but then also enough to actually be in Europe for a year. Which was marvelous -- an incredible gift.

And so then we came back and settled in New York City, and my husband was a writer for magazines. And not Time or anything, although he did work on a book series for Time called Great Men of Our Time. But he was with -- (laughter) oh, I can't remember the names of these magazines. But that's for the transcript. [Parade]

COLLINGS

Yeah, yeah.

RUSSELL

I can fill that in? Yeah.

And so we lived, yes, in New York City, on the West Side then, in the 80s. And lived a very cosmopolitan kind of lifestyle. And everything seemed fine, except that I did still have this problem with depression. And I was in therapy from the time I was 19 to the time I had my first child, at 28. So...and those were most of my New York City years.

RUSSELL

OK. I had my first child there, and that was Ben. And...I wrote to my therapist after Ben was born that "I feel as though I've been plugged into the universe (laughter) for the first time." Having a child just did that for me.

COLLINGS

So it was sort of the opposite of postpartum depression? (laughter)

RUSSELL

It was, yes. Yeah. And so I -- and that was the end of therapy. And...I found myself engaged in something that seemed to be worthy of the best of me in every way. And I had never found that in any career that I had contemplated. Nothing seemed to engage me that fully, to demand that from me -- the best of me in every way. But motherhood did. And that became my world. And a very wonderful and...for me, I think, growth-filled experience. I would say -- I would evaluate myself as being a pretty self-centered person prior to having children, and it was having children that actually matured me beyond this self-centeredness that I was stuck in. And so that was a great revelation and blossoming for me. And I really took mothering very seriously, and read a good deal about child development and mothering, really did my very best. And it was a wonderful period of my life -- a really wonderful period in my life.

And then when Ben was about two, my husband -- who, by the way, the reason I married him was that he had the most wonderful sense of humor that I had ever met in anyone. (laughter) And he -- our lives were all, you know, full of laughter because of him. And so one of the things that he did as kind of a fun side project was he and a friend of his did a humorous show on WBAI, which is the counterpart of KPFK in New York City. And based on that, he was invited to come to -- both of them were invited to come to L.A. as writers for The Monkees.

COLLINGS

Oh my gosh! (laughter) I remember that show!

RUSSELL

Yeah. And so we packed up and -- and that happened on my birthday, in fact, on my 30th birthday, the day that we flew from New York City to California. And I have to say that when I got -- I did not expect to like California. I did not expect to like L.A., because at that time, I had become a thorough New Yorker. I was very snobbish about New York, and all the people that I knew who had been to California and came back said, "Oh, it's awful! It's...so lowbrow." (laughter) And what they didn't mention is the climate, and they didn't mention all the glorious vegetation.

Yeah. It's so fascinating when you come for the first time.

RUSSELL

Well, I thought the plane had crashed, and I'd waked up in Heaven. That's what it was like for me. And I -- and really, I feel that way still. California felt like my home from the day I arrived, although I had never been here before, and I love it. And I -- even though I've seen Europe, and I've even seen, you know, some parts of India and Nepal...I don't think there's anywhere I'd rather live than here.

And so I became totally in love -- a lover of California and Los Angeles. And I...settled in, and found happiness here that I never, ever have experienced anywhere else.

COLLINGS

And where did you live when you first came to Los Angeles?

RUSSELL

In Silverlake, actually, not far from here. Well, actually, first we had a little house in Hollywood overlooking some hills and stuff that were -- it was very nice. We rented a little space. It was a house that had been apartmentized, but it had a little yard and stuff, and... And that was very nice for a short period of time. And then we moved to Silverlake, and we rented this house that overlooked Silverlake, and it had, you know, three bedrooms, a beautiful dining room with a -- living room with a huge fireplace, and the picture window overlooking the lake, and kitchen, and it was this Spanish style -- for less than we had paid for a teeny-tiny penthouse apartment in New York City. So it was heaven. It was truly heaven. I could not believe it, how wonderful it was. And so that was a blessing.

And that was really...where I started to reconnect with nature again. And I'll never forget when my second son was born, when he was pretty young -- I would say maybe six months -- and we were sitting in our little backyard that also you could see the lake from, and he was sitting there, and he was looking around like this, looking at all the trees and the plants and everything, and I saw him as being a little baby Buddha just viewing his creation. (laughter) You know? Just viewing Creation. And I felt that way myself: that I was in the midst of the ultimate magic of Creation. And...

COLLINGS

What year was this?

RUSSELL

Well, Jason was born in 1967. So we arrived in California in 1966, on my 30th birthday, and then we -- I had -- we had another child. And unfortunately, during this period, my husband and I...California has wonderful qualities, but it also is -- tends to upset old patterns. And...it just got to a point where the possibilities that opened up for both of us here in California...made it too difficult for us to stay together, because our impulses were in different directions. Mine were -- was toward more natural living, and healthy living, and spiritual living. And my husband's was more to Hollywood living. And that represented two very divergent values. And it just -- it got to a point where it just wasn't working, to the point where we didn't think it was OK to stay together anymore. Too much conflict, and, in my estimation, anyway, it would be better for the children if we lived separately, and when we were together, we were not yelling at each other than...you know? I don't know that he agreed, but anyway, we did separate. And I moved here, to Russell Avenue, just a few -- the next block over, because my older son was going to the school at the end of this street, which was, at that time, called Midtown School, even though it was not in Midtown. (laughter) But...

So I wanted to be able to walk to school, because even then I was beginning to feel this sense of here we were in this place that was so green, green, green all over, and beautiful, yet I was in my car so much of the time driving here, driving there, driving to school and back twice a day, driving to do -- get dry cleaning, driving to buy food. Everything was done by car, and I was beginning to feel -- I felt stretched too far, too thin. And I had this inner impulse towards pulling things closer together, integrating things more. And so I wanted to live where we could walk to school, and we could walk to the food store, and my children's classmates and school friends were living right here. Maybe that's partly because I did grow up in the situation where I was in the country mostly, and so being with friends was a big deal, and I kind of saw neighborhood living as this great ideal where kids could get together on their own and do their thing, and it didn't have to be all packing everybody in cars and going places. So that was another part of the appeal of this neighborhood.

And so we moved, as I said, up the block from here, in a little house behind a big house. And that worked very well until the owner of the property changed -- the property changed hands, and the new owner wanted that little house. Which, by the way, when I first moved into it, I was paying $70 a month. And then it raised to $90 a month. But then he wanted to get more for it. And simultaneously, this house opened up as a rental. And so I moved from there to here in my -- except for the big pieces of furniture, which were very few because this house was teeny-tiny. That other house was teeny-tiny. I -- you know, it hardly had any -- except a bed, because I just used mattresses on the floor and the kids' bunk beds, and a dresser. That was about the only two big things that I had. And I moved in my children's little red wagon. I moved back and forth, back and forth (laughter) for quite a number of days bringing stuff from there to here. And this house seemed huge to me at that time. It just -- I didn't think -- see how I could ever fill it up. And it did take me years to fill it up. And...but it -- here it was. It was Russell Avenue, and I thought, you know, there's nowhere else that I'm going to find a better place to do my thing in life. (laughter) And so that's really part of what I think decided me to sort of take my stand here.

And so when we first moved here, I had -- when I first separated from my husband -- by the way, it -- he was very generous in supporting us after we separated. Even with no legal battle or anything, he just agreed to support us -- for the most part. There was a short period of time when was kind of resentful and didn't; then I went on welfare. for a short period of time. But...for the whole rest of the period, he was very generous in supporting us, so I did not have to work, other than -- at anything other than raising the children.

And it left me -- since they were soon both in school, it left me a lot of time to sort of discover what my innate interests/fascinations were. And I found myself, much to my surprise -- because as I mentioned, I had become an urbanite -- subscribing to Mother Earth News and Organic Gardening magazine. Now, I had no idea why I did that, and yet when those magazines came, I would sit down and read them cover to cover. I just was totally enthralled. And then we moved here, and these interests continued, and even strengthened, to the point where my vision started to expand of what was possible, and -- in terms of applying some of these sustainable systems I was reading about in these magazines in an urban environment. And simultaneously, I was a member of many environmental groups that published very educational magazines and newsletters they published, and I got my environmental education from these magazines and newsletters. And again, these were things that I would get and read cover to cover. And because of my husband's support, I had the time to do that. I don't think I could have done what I've done -- created Eco-Home -- without that support. And so I call him "the father of Eco-Home." I'm the mother of Eco-Home; he's the father of Eco-Home, because -- even though it really isn't anything that he would've thought of or created. But his generous support of me during that period made it possible for me to discover my own way.

COLLINGS

Was he making a good living as a --

RUSSELL

He was. He was making --

COLLINGS

-- TV writer?

RUSSELL

He was. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, it worked out very well.

COLLINGS

What did he go on to after The Monkees?

RUSSELL

Welcome Back, Kotter. Do you remember that one?

COLLINGS

Yes. Yes. Yeah, yeah.

RUSSELL

And, you know, after that, I really don't know. There were others -- lots of others. But I didn't really track it that much, because by that time, I didn't have a TV.

COLLINGS

Just wondering which shows were supporting Eco-Home. (laughter) It's interesting to think about.

RUSSELL

(laughter) That's -- that is interesting. I hadn't thought of that, either. Yeah.

COLLINGS

Just let me take -- ask you a little follow-up question: when you were a young mother in New York, and also when you came out here, did you have much interaction with other mothers?

RUSSELL

Yes. Yes. In New York, we had friends who had children about the same ages, and we would often go to the park together with our kids. And we socialized together, and things like that. And then when I came out here, that also happened as soon as the children started to go to school. Then I began to meet other mothers. And they went to preschool -- so that was when Ben was three, he started to go to preschool. And so, got to know all the other mothers, and we used to spend a lot of time together. And in fact, that group of mothers formed a women's group that met for 13 years.

COLLINGS

My goodness!

RUSSELL

And we would meet -- I think it was every week. Every week we would meet, and -- one evening and have our women's group. It was wonderful. It was very, very --

COLLINGS

And what were the -- sort of the issues of the group?

RUSSELL

Well, you know, all about -- the women's group, or the group of mothers when the children were little?

COLLINGS

Well, both, but let's --

RUSSELL

OK.

COLLINGS

Both, yeah.

RUSSELL

Well, of course, when the children were little, it was all about childrearing, for the most part, although -- and so that was mostly what we talked about when we were together with the children. Then when we would meet for the women's group, which happened sort of after the children were a little bit older, then of course other issues about careers and relationships, because one by one, we were divorcing. And just life in general, you know? The whole spectrum of what we face and deal with in our lives. And several of the women in the group WERE therapists, so that (laughter) --

COLLINGS

That was handy!

RUSSELL

-- that made it very nice. (laughter) But, you know, they didn't take -- they didn't place themselves in the position of therapists in that group, but their skills certainly did contribute to the quality of the meetings.

COLLINGS

And did you feel that the women that you knew, the other mothers that you knew AND the women in the women's group, were as fulfilled by their role as mothers as you were?

RUSSELL

Some of them were. Some of them were, yeah. I mean, I would say a lot of them were. But then there were some women who necessarily could not devote themselves as fully to mothering because they didn't have husbands who would support them to do that. And they were having to go to school to learn to develop their careers, and to run their careers. I mean, it was -- I mean, some of those women -- I have been in, am still, in awe of what they did. I feel -- I mean, I guess, you do what you have to do, but I felt as I watched them I couldn't have done what they did. I tried -- for one semester, I think it was, was all -- to work in the little nursery school down here. And I found I couldn't give the best of myself to my children at home AND to the children at school. I didn't have enough to go around. And yet, many of the women did that, if not as teachers, as other professionals. And I admired that, and I still admire that greatly. But I feel very blessed to have not had to do that, and to have had the opportunity to nurture this vision that was evolving in my mind based on the literature that I was reading from the environmental groups that i belonged to that was providing my environmental education, along with Mother Earth News and Organic Gardening.

So I began to put those two together. And I came to the conclusion after a few years of reading and studying and thinking that really, one can trace all our environmental problems back -- except for those caused by the military, which is quite extensive. But other than that, we can trace all our environmental problems back to our modern urban lifestyle. That was the key insight that I had that caused me to focus on my life, my home life, my everyday choices and actions. And that insight was both empowering and overpowering. (laughter) It was both, you know? Kind of, "Oh my god! I'm the problem!" But -- oh, but I can change my individual choices and actions. I had that power to do that.

And so it started really as a personal quest. But it came from many actual -- multiple sources. It was the reading I was doing, this insight that I had (coughing) excuse me.

COLLINGS

That's OK.

RUSSELL

We might have to stop if my voice gives out.

COLLINGS

Oh, that's fine. Yeah. You tell me. Were you aware of the first Earth Day? I mean, I presume that you were? Yeah?

RUSSELL

Definitely. Yeah. (pause) Yeah, that was certainly a very exciting thing, an exciting time.

My voice isn't coming back.

COLLINGS

Oh, OK. Do you want to...?

RUSSELL

Maybe.

COLLINGS

OK. All right. (END OF AUDIO FILE)

1.2. Session 2 ( July 18, 2007)

COLLINGS

Today is July 18th, 2007. Jane Collings interviewing Julia Russell in her home -- Eco-Home. Good morning, Julia.

RUSSELL

Good morning, Jane! Thank you so much for coming.

COLLINGS

Thank you for having me. And one thing I wanted to do before we go get back into our chronology was just ask you a little bit more about the period when you first moved into this house. And you talked about how you wanted to start walking around your neighborhood, and creating more of a sense of neighborhood. And was this the time that you gave up your car? Or was that later?

RUSSELL

That was later.

COLLINGS

Oh, OK. All right.

RUSSELL

Yeah.

COLLINGS

So we'll get to that, then.

RUSSELL

Yeah. It -- yeah.

COLLINGS

Mmm hmm? Yeah, go ahead.

RUSSELL

Yeah. I still had my car, but my inner motivation seemed to be driving me toward -- (laughter) "driving me" -- towards more and more bringing my life closer together, all the places I needed to go closer together so I didn't have to use the car. It wasn't so much at that point because I was concerned about air pollution. It was an internal feeling of being too spread out too thin. It wasn't until later I began to be aware of the environmental impacts and implications of being car-dependent.

COLLINGS

OK. OK. Because I was going to ask you how your kids felt about it when you gave up your car, but it sounds like they were a bit older then.

RUSSELL

Yeah. They --

COLLINGS

So that wasn't really a factor?

RUSSELL

Right. That's right, yeah.

COLLINGS

And regarding the women's group that you were involved in --

RUSSELL

Yes?

COLLINGS

-- where you sort of worked through a lot of the political and social and personal issues of the day, are you still in touch with any of those --

RUSSELL

Yes, I am.

COLLINGS

And what kinds of things are they doing?

RUSSELL

Well, several of them were therapists, and they continued to do that, and went on doing that. And some were stay-at-home moms, as I was, and as far as I know -- let's see. Well, one of them -- (clears throat) let's not have this start already, this throat/voice thing. (pause)

One of them had a Down Syndrome child, and she became very active and actually in the forefront of exploring and getting research done and following up on research that had been done on the relation between diet and mental retardation, and other environmental factors. And she just devoted herself to creating the best possible outcome for her child, and in the course of it benefited hundreds and thousands of other children, too. And --

COLLINGS

And what was her name?

RUSSELL

Nevi -- N-E-V-I -- Brunk -- B-R-U-N-K.

Another woman, I think she actually published some poetry. She...I don't know where or anything, but I know she was a very good poet, and she would occasionally bring her poems to the group, and we'd read them. That was really very nice.

COLLINGS

So were these women who lived in this general area?

RUSSELL

Yes.

COLLINGS

In this neighborhood?

RUSSELL

By, you know, Silverlake area, Los Feliz area, and then as far west as La Brea at that time. Now, since then, they've spread out quite a bit more, so it's -- they're kind of spread out now.

COLLINGS

Yeah. And also at that time, did kids walk to school on their own at...? You said the neighborhood school was quite nearby. Or did they tend to be walked to school by their parents --

RUSSELL

Well --

COLLINGS

-- already at that point? Or driven to school?

RUSSELL

When my children were young, I walked with them. But as they got up into six, seven, eight, then they walked on their own, yeah. And yeah, it was still -- we still didn't have the kinds of problems that we now have, or fears or concerns that we now have about children walking. So, yeah.

COLLINGS

And the children of this -- of these women, did they tend to go to public school through high school, or to the --

RUSSELL

Well, originally, after nursery school, we actually formed a parent-run alternative school. And so at least for the first few years, maybe up to third grade, our children went to this alternative, family-run or alternative school. And then, interestingly enough, on the initiative of my children themselves, they chose to go to public school. And so that was interesting to me that they made that choice (laughter) at a fairly young age, and... So that was interesting to me. Now, I feel that in the long term, although they may not recognize it, I feel that they benefited from the alternative school.

COLLINGS

(inaudible)

RUSSELL

Because I think they have not so ready a acquiescence to authoritarian types of government or situations. They're both kind of willing to question authority in a way that they may have had anyway, but I kind of think it might have had something to do with the fact that they weren't brought up from the very, very beginning in authoritarian environments.

COLLINGS

OK. But -- so for the most part, for this particular group of women, the local public schools did not particularly meet their needs? Would you say that that is...?

RUSSELL

Well, we were concerned that they didn't. It was the era when Summerhill was kind of in the area and happening, and we were all rebelling against authority at that time, you know? We were all questioning whether we wanted our children to be integrated into an authoritarian structure, social structure. And so, yeah, I think we were all kind of questioning that at that time.

COLLINGS

OK. All right. So I just -- just a little bit of follow-up on moving into this house and settling into this neighborhood.

RUSSELL

Yeah, yeah.

COLLINGS

OK. So last time, you sort of ended talking about how the kids would be off at school, and you would be steeping yourself in organic gardening magazines, and that this really spoke to you.

RUSSELL

Yes, yes. It did, and much to my surprise. I -- it was not a conscious intention to move in that direction. It was coming from something within me that I had not even been aware of until then. And so I felt as though I was just kind of going along for the ride, and enjoying it very much, and getting very stimulated and excited by it, and motivated to think about solutions and things. And...

COLLINGS

Now, what year was this?

RUSSELL

Let's see... When I moved into the little house on Russell Avenue, it was 1970. And I was there for two years, I believe. And that's when a lot of this fermentation was taking place. And then I moved into this house. Probably '72, '73? Something like that. And...so I -- you know, I'm finding it hard to concentrate because I'm realizing there was something that came up in the last session that -- a gap that I'm thinking about as I'm talking to you about this. And so I'm -- my consciousness --

COLLINGS

A gap in time?

RUSSELL

-- attention is split. A gap in time, an important experience.

COLLINGS

What was it?

RUSSELL

May I -- mind -- do you mind if I go back to that?

COLLINGS

No, no, no. Of course.

RUSSELL

Thank you. I appreciate it.

Well, it was during the time I was in New York City. Before and after I went to Europe, just as the Vietnam War was starting, or about to start -- about to start --

COLLINGS

The U.S. involvement?

RUSSELL

The U.S. involvement, yeah. And I became a political activist against the war, and I started to work for the organization -- a peace organization called SANE [National Committee for a SANE Nuclear Policy], S-A-N-E. And I forgot -- "Society Against Nuclear...Expansion" or something. I forget what it was.

COLLINGS

Yeah, I forget, too, but I (inaudible)

RUSSELL

Yeah. And it was a well-established peace organization at that time, and so I worked in their office, and I also went on the street with leaflets saying what the reality of the war was, and that -- the proposed war, and that it was illegal and unwinnable, and we shouldn't do it, and it was immoral, and... So I had experience both within the office and out on the streets with political activism. And (coughing) excuse me. That was very important. That experience was very important to me later on as I started to think about creating Eco-Home.

And the -- another aspect of that that was very important was that the executive director of the organization was extremely authoritarian. And the atmosphere in the office was anything but peaceful. He actually ran the office as a tyrant, and people were afraid of him. And one very telling moment was the day his wife and his son came to visit him in the office, and they were these two little mousy, shrinking people, afraid of him. And it had such a powerful impact on me, I just thought, "Oh, my god! How can this be?" The leader of this organization that was devoted to peace, and he's not creating peace around him. He does not have peace within him. He doesn't have peace in his family. He doesn't have peace in the office. And I had a very, very profound insight at that time that has really played a big role in my further evolution, and that is you can not bring to the world what you yourself do not embody within yourself.

And so that was -- both of those experiences were very key to me. And thank you for letting me go back, because that's sort of part of what...decided the form that the Eco-Home developed into, the way it -- the structure of it. OK. Thank you. That's been on my mind, so it's now off my chest. Thank you.

COLLINGS

Yeah. And it's very interesting, too, because when you described working as an activist for SANE, this -- it's precisely a different focus than what you're doing now, because it's very much outward-oriented.

RUSSELL

That's right.

COLLINGS

Whereas what you're doing now is more focused inward, and from that inner space is projecting something outward. But it's a different dynamic.

RUSSELL

Precisely, yes. You've got exactly why it was so important, because it really did determine the way I operate here and the whole organization is structured. Yeah. That's right.

COLLINGS

Was that a paid position that you had --

RUSSELL

Yes, it was.

COLLINGS

-- or was it volunteer?

RUSSELL

It was. I was the receptionist...phone operator -- you know, that's when they had the plug-in phone -- those things? And the receptionist, and, you know, general girl about the office, doing whatever had to be done.

COLLINGS

Yeah. And so did you quit at that -- when you had that realization, or...?

RUSSELL

I don't think I quit then. I think I didn't quit until I got pregnant. I think I -- it was not until I got pregnant. I can't remember, to tell you the truth. I don't remember what the sequence of events was. Yeah.

COLLINGS

OK. So you're out here on Russell Avenue?

RUSSELL

That's right. That's right.

COLLINGS

And you started gardening?

RUSSELL

Yes. Well, what -- I had joined a lot of environmental organizations, and so I was being educated by those organizations through their newsletters and magazines, and I was gaining a far more extensive picture of what the environmental problems were that were kind of gathering force even then but were not being covered at all by mainstream media. And so it was the combination of that information and the information from Organic Gardening magazine and Mother Earth News that I began synthesizing those two things, and came to the realization that, except for the military, the environmental problems that we were facing in the world could all be traced to our modern urban lifestyle. So that's what brought it all home to me personally.

And so I started modifying my lifestyle in small ways. I determined that I was going to see if I could evolve a lifestyle that would rely as little as possible on products or procedures that were environmentally destructive, and if I could reduce my use of natural resources, because I realized that we were using our resources at an unsustainable rate, beyond what they could be replenished. And so I started with small little things, like recycling, even -- at that time, there was no curbside program, but I found something very interesting. I had noticed that there were people who would go to our trash bins before the trash came through and pull out stuff for recycling. And so what I did was I began separating it, and putting little boxes of the different recyclables separately. And sure enough, they would disappear within a day or two. So it was a curbside program, but it was not city-run. And in fact, when the city did finally start a recycling program, I really lobbied them to allow -- to -- instead of creating a whole new infrastructure, to work with the people who were already recycling, support their efforts in some way, engage them in a system whereby they would be able to continue work that was serving the public good, but also providing them with income, basic income that they needed. Unfortunately, that's not how they chose to go. So these people who really were the pioneer recyclers were outlawed, basically. They are now -- when they do that, they are doing something illegal, which I think is a very unfortunate outcome, you know?

RUSSELL

But anyway, that was my first -- one of my first things. And also switching to non-toxic cleaning products. And that's something that I still have to explain to people why that's important, because many people don't realize that the fabrication -- the manufacture of toxic cleaning products that have become a staple of our economy and the way we keep our homes clean introduces toxic substances into the environment; in the process of fabrication, it releases toxic substance within the manufacturing environment so that the people working there are exposed to them; it makes likely -- and every once in a while, we hear about accidents that have occurred in the transportation of these toxic substances to and from the manufacturing to the distribution points. And then when we bring these home and open them up and start using them, we're releasing these toxic substances into our own personal environment, and once again back into the environment. And then if we disposed of those products before we're finished with them, they go into our wastestream. Once again, they are exposing other people and the rest of the environment. And so switching to non-toxic cleaning products becomes a significant act in terms of reducing the release of toxic substances into our environment.

So I started with a product -- there were two products at that time that I was aware of that were non-toxic to humans and to the environment: one was Shaklee, and the other was Amway. And for some reason, I bumped into a Shaklee distributor or something, and I started with Shaklee, and I have continued using those products because they are excellent products, and biodegradable, and... So I've never seen any reason to shift. And so those were some of the simple, everyday choices, besides walking as much as possible instead of driving, because by that time I was beginning to become aware of exhausts from our automobiles and things. And...

COLLINGS

What about food choices at that time?

RUSSELL

Food choices. I did -- yes, thank you for reminding me about that. I did become aware at that time of the dangers of industrial-grown or commercially-grown food using synthetic fertilizers and pesticides, etc. And so I was buying organic food when I could find it. It was not very easy to find at that time. There were a couple of health food stores in our neighborhood at that time, thank goodness, so I was able to find -- whatever was available, I could get there.

And also aware of the problems with excess sugar in diets, in our diets, and fat, etc. And so I became pretty fastidious about the food that I bought and the food that I served to my children. And at the time, they did not appreciate it.

COLLINGS

(laughter) I was going to ask you that.

RUSSELL

At the time, they did not appreciate it. But later on in our lives, they -- each of them in their own way has thanked me, saying they feel that they have tended to be more healthy than some of their peers because of the healthy diet they were given when they were younger. But (laughter) it was not always easy. I had to somehow disguise my healthy diet in the guise of junk food (laughter) as much as possible.

COLLINGS

Now, did you have actual prohibitions against junk food, or did you just try to avoid it?

RUSSELL

Oh, I just avoided it. I -- it was -- there was no way that I could do that. First of all, I'm not that kind of a person. I am not a prohibition kind of person. (laughter) But also, my -- by that time, I'd separated from my husband, and he was totally devoted to junk food. And so when my children were withn him, which was almost half the time, he -- they -- that was their diet, was junk food. And I did not want to make junk food a "bad" thing, because I didn't want to make HIM "bad," and I didn't want to set up that dichotomy and conflict with my kids, you know? Within my kids.

So I just -- when we were here, I served them these things, and -- you know, the healthy things. And I modified -- as I said, I tried to make it taste (laughter) as much like junk food as possible. For instance, their drinks -- and I still drink this -- were fruit juice with sparkling mineral water. So it was sparkling like soda, but it was actually fruit juice. (laughter) And so things like that, you know? And so the -- yes, those were some of the changes that I made early on.

And then in 19...77, we had a drought. And that began to bother me. I had never experienced a drought before -- I come from the East Coast. And I -- by that time, I had been sensitized enough to the environment here that I could begin to feel the stress when I would go out hiking and things. That was another thing I did with my kids a lot is I took them hiking to, you know, bond with nature (laughter) as much as possible, and get an appreciation of it.

And...so I began researching our water supply system, and our climate: what kind of a climate we had, and how much rainfall we got, and where we got our supplementary water from, and the impact that it had on the regions we got that water from. And the more I learned, the more concerned I became, and the two stories that really determined me to seriously reduce my water consumption were the story of Mono Lake, and the story of Owens Valley. And as I learned about those two regions and how our use of water from those regions was affecting the environment to their detriment -- seriously to their detriment -- I said, "OK, I have to" --

Oh, and in the meantime -- and one of the things I learned also as I was doing this research was that 50% of the water that comes into most homes like this with front and back yards goes out into the landscape to keep lawns green and flowers blooming. And so I thought, "I am going to see if I can't find a way to have a beautiful, lush-looking garden using plants that little or no supplementary water in the summertime. And that was the first kind of systemic change. I began to think systemically in terms of changing my lifestyle at that time. So of course, I already had done the switching to low-flow showerheads and putting water flow restrictors on faucets. And as soon as I could, I replaced my toilet with a low-flow toilet. But the outside, the landscape was something that was my first large-scale adjustment.

And so I went to UCLA Extension courses in native plants, horticulture, landscape design. And first started out by taking up the sidewalk, which was going up the middle of the lawn, from the public sidewalk to the front porch. I wanted an entire lawn area with no sidewalk splitting it. That was not so much environmental as that I just don't like concrete. And so I started with that, and then I had this whole front area to sort of plant as I wanted. So the first thing I was did was plant native wildflowers, which was great for the spring, and then became a fire hazard (laughter) by August. And so that's when I realized I needed to find out more about this business of growing things, and landscaping, and things like that.

And over several years, I started the process of changing over the front yard into a drought-tolerant landscape. And at that time, that -- there was no word for it. Later on, in something like eighty -- the Eighties, the California Landscapers Association did create a word for drought-tolerant landscapes, "xeriscape." And -- but at the time that I started this, really no one at that time was really thinking about it, even though there was a drought. It was odd that people just weren't registering the implications of it. And so over a period of two or three years, I created the landscape that's now in the front yard, and the concept was to create a kind of a cooling region that was also an air filtering and purifying region, and a wildlife habitat, and just bringing -- as much as possible, bringing the natural environment back into my front yard. Now, it's true I did deviate from that at one point. I first started with just native California plants, but then I had some failures with -- I planted an oak tree twice, and Toyon [tree]. They didn't make it.

COLLINGS

It needed more water?

RUSSELL

I don't know what it was. I don't know what was wrong. And the same with toyon. I tried toyon a couple of times. That didn't... So I began to modify my plans and think about, OK, what -- and learning about our climate and the fact that it is a Mediterranean climate, and that there are climates called "Mediterranean climates" all around the globe -- including the Mediterranean, of course. (laughter) And that there are plants that are adapted to that climate in all those regions, and that we can use those plants in our own drought-tolerant landscapes because they are already adapted to the long, hot, dry summers, and the cool, wet winters. And so the almond tree from the Mideast, and the...sapote tree from Mexico, the golden medallion trees from Brazil -- all those came in later, and then pittosporum from Australia -- an Australian grass tree.

And so slowly, I was able to design and landscape with these plants which are already adapted to our climate. Of course, in the process of starting these landscapes, one has to irrigate them for the first several years. And so at that time, I learned about drip irrigation, and had some drip irrigation installed to irrigate these plants as they were getting established. And once they were established, my irrigation schedule was once a year, in July during wet years, years where we had good rainfall during the winter, and twice a year if it hadn't rained by October. So that was a major, major reduction in water use in my front yard. And that has held until this year. And as you know, this year --

COLLINGS

Record low --

RUSSELL

-- we've had a record drought. And so I found it was necessary to irrigate -- I've irrigated several times now, at the latter part of 2006, and throughout 2007 so far I've had to irrigate several times. But still, a great deal less than my neighbor.

COLLINGS

Oh, yeah.

RUSSELL

My neighbors on both --

COLLINGS

They have a full-fledged --

RUSSELL

-- sides.

COLLINGS

-- lawn. Yeah, right.

RUSSELL

My neighbors on both sides, are irrigating every day. So I -- you know, I'm still saving water in the front yard, so that was, I felt, a success. And I enjoy my garden so much.

COLLINGS

It looks lovely.

RUSSELL

It brings me such joy, and sense of peace. Oh, one of my lights just went out. (laughter) One of my little Quartz halogen bulbs. OK.

COLLINGS

When you were taking the classes at UCLA Extension, what was -- did you have a sense of what the other people in the classes were being motivated by?

RUSSELL

Well, of course the horticulture class was not about drought tolerant horticulture -- it was just horticulture. And so they were all interested in horticulture, various aspects of horticulture. And I didn't meet anyone else at that time in those classes who was particularly interested in drought-tolerant plants, or native plants, or anything like that. The native plant -- and learning about native plants, I actually can't remember, but it was a more eccentric (laughter) group of people than the horticulture class, because there just aren't that many people who are interested in native plants. So they were -- I don't remember making any friends particularly in those classes that -- because of shared interest. And I was there with my pretty narrow focus on this garden, although even then, at that point, I was hoping -- that this garden would be a demonstration so that other people would get interested.

COLLINGS

So you were thinking that already at that time?

RUSSELL

I was already thinking that, because I was already beginning to think that the changes I was making were really important; that we were all going to have to start thinking in these terms. And I was just a little ahead of the curve because of my education from the environmental groups that I belonged to, but that it wouldn't be too much longer before the mainstream media would have to pick up this story.

COLLINGS

And which, again, were the groups that you were involved with at that time?

RUSSELL

Well, there was an organization called Environmental Action. And I'm not sure if they've changed now, they became another organization, or... Somehow, I lost touch with them, or... Environmental Action, Natural Resources Defense Council -- those are the two that I remember most as being my sources of education. And let's see...

COLLINGS

So were other members of these groups that, you know, when you went to meetings, were they --

RUSSELL

Oh, I didn't go to meetings.

COLLINGS

Oh, I see. OK.

RUSSELL

No, these were just memberships that I paid for, and I would get their newsletters and things. Yeah. So I didn't participate, except through reading their newsletters and things, and donating money to the work they were doing. Yeah.

So...my support was through them, and through Mother Earth News and -- and they were actually my anchor in terms of holding on to my sense of sanity, because my perception of the world and what's important, and what we need to do, and how we need to live was diverging so drastically from mainstream that -- and in the meantime, while I -- while this was happening, I was creating such chaos in my physical environment, because I was -- you know, this front yard was completely torn up and looked terrible for a long time before (laughter) I finally got through all of this education process and began to apply it, and actually create a landscape. And it seemed like I was trying to do everything at once, and so I was creating an environment that, reflected chaos back to me.

And so that, combined with the fact that my worldview was changing drastically and not in synch with mainstream worldview, I was self-conscious enough to say, "Wait a minute -- this looks like the environment of a mad person, of a crazy person." And there were periods, dark nights of the soul when I really did question my own sanity. My anchors, though, were these magazines and newsletters of these organizations that were confirming this new understanding, this new perception of what was going on in the world. And so they were very, very important to me, because I wasn't getting any confirmation from mainstream media, my social circle, nor from my family.

COLLINGS

What were -- how were -- what was their response?

RUSSELL

Well, for my kids, it was basically, "Mom, why do you have to be so weird?" (laughter) You know? And of course, no support from my husband -- I mean, no moral support. He still was supporting me financially. But no moral support because he just thought I was crazy. He DID think I was crazy. And weird. And so -- and even in my women's group, I have to say, (laughter) I was not considered as completely sane. (laughter) They loved me --

COLLINGS

Because of the gardening?

RUSSELL

They loved me. No, it wasn't just the gardening; it was, my whole worldview was changing, and my whole perception of reality was changing. And see -- oh, the -- there's so many threads of my life that converged to weave together, to create this reality of Eco-Home. I'm going to have to go out again to trace back one of the threads.

I -- during this early period of being in California, and then moving into my own life where I had some spare time to pursue my own interests, I began exploring also, along with the environment, consciousness research. And the door that first opened me to my own spirituality -- as contrasted to "religion," which as you know I kind of turned my back on early on in my life -- was Ralph Waldo Emerson, and his ideas about the transcendent aspects of reality, or the transcendent realty (laughter) underlying reality. And so I began reading books that started to question the very concrete, rationalistic picture of reality that I was brought up in in the Fifties, in which everything was invested in scientific truth as the source of all truth. And I began to read different interpretations of reality, and what reality was, what reality consists of. And the more I read, the more excited I became, and the more possibilities for my life seemed to open up, and for me personally. And at a certain point, I came to -- and I actually went to some classes studying meditation and metaphysics. And a certain point, I said, "OK." I came to the conclusion that I was severely limiting the possibilities of myself and my life because of the belief system that I had been brought up in and educated in, and that I decided that I was going see almost as a scientific experiment: What would happen if I lived my life as though my beliefs creted my reality. And so I changed my belief system. And that -- I'm going to have to stop for a minute.

COLLINGS

OK. Shall I pause?

RUSSELL

Yeah.

COLLINGS

OK. (break in audio)

COLLINGS

OK?

RUSSELL

OK.

COLLINGS

All right. Let's see... We're rolling again. Well, I'm just sort of struck, because when you describe this transformation, it's almost as if you're describing a response to a traumatic experience, but in fact, this was all rather gradual and positive in nature, so...

RUSSELL

Yes, that's right. It wasn't traumatic. It was -- it certainly was a dramatic change in environment from New York City to California, and then from married to single. But it's interesting that you remind me that I've always described my arrival in California with the -- as -- I felt as though the plane had crashed and I woke up in Heaven. And so (laughter) in a sense, there was that sense of trauma; drastic, drastic change from one reality to another, two totally different lives.

And so that was the philosophical and spiritual change that underlies this whole transformation of my life. It gave me the courage and the hope that I could actually live my dream, and not have to just helplessly see my world collapse around me.

COLLINGS

But you -- live your dream. So, yeah.

RUSSELL

And my dream was taking shape as I was making these little changes around this home, this house. And so that was an important thread that came into this. Without that change in philosophy, I would never have believed it possible that I could live this life and make these changes, do these things.

COLLINGS

Now, did you always remain -- it sound- you always remained interested in these kinds of technologies for use in the private home.

RUSSELL

Yes.

COLLINGS

For people to do on an individual level.

RUSSELL

Yes.

COLLINGS

Could you say a little bit about that? I mean, you never -- you don't have a particular interest in more communal living spaces, or citywide...?

RUSSELL

Oh, absolutely. I do.

COLLINGS

You do?

RUSSELL

Oh, absolutely. And in fact, for many years, was involved in that, and initiated a conference that we ran with a couple of other organizations on that topic precisely. And it was at my initiative we produced the First Los Angeles Eco-Cities Conference. However, my everyday focus has been on the personal, and that harks back to my realization that our environmental problems really stem from our everyday choices and actions within our modern urban lifestyle. And also that experience at SANE, one of the things I realized about a lot of peace activists was -- as with the leader there -- that they were often pointing outside of themselves at the problem as a substitute for dealing with the problem within themselves of their own inner peace. And I saw that also in the environmental movement: that there was a lot of focus on making them change, make those corporations change, make those industries change -- without recognizing that the reason those corporations are making those products and causing the pollution they're causing, (laughter) and doing what they're doing is to meet what we think are our needs. We're buying their products, and supporting them by paying them money (laughter) for their products, and... Yeah, more and more, the more I thought about it, the more my experience kept pointing back to ourselves, ourselves; that change must come within ourselves.

COLLINGS

Now, did you think of yourself at that time, using some of the vocabulary of the time, as like, "dropping out" of society, or did you think of yourself as a hippie, or...?

RUSSELL

Prior to this, I did. Prior to this, I was a hippie -- no doubt about it. (laughter) And I loved it. But as I became a mother and I started to deal with, you know, having to be there for the kids, and after separation, having to do everything on my own, I was just dealing more with everyday realities, and wanting to create a secure and safe environment for my children, not so much exploration just for the fun of exploration.

COLLINGS

Right. I mean, did -- and did you ever consider at that time moving to some of the sort of eco -- early eco village-type situations that were around the time?

RUSSELL

Well, at -- I never thought of that. I -- well, there were two things. At one point, many of -- several of the women and I at -- in the women's group had talked about buying a home together and living there with our kids, and sharing in that way. That never actually took place, but we did talk about it. And then at one point, really before I -- this whole Eco-Home thing started, as part of my spiritual exploration, I was reading Krishnamurti and visited -- they were starting a school up in Ojai. The Krishnamurti Foundation was starting a school up there, and so I went up there with my kids, and met some of the people, and was thinking that would be really an interesting and good direction to go in, both for myself personally, but for my kids as well. But my husband was very, very against it, and it upset him terrifically, even though I felt that it was within -- you know, I mean, it was not that far away. But it certainly would be more difficult for us to continue the way we had, which was they were with me four days a week, and they were with him three days. Or let's see; it was three nights, four -- they were with me four nights, and with him three nights. And so it was with him two days, and with me five days, because they were here when they were going to school. So that would've been more difficult, so I didn't end up doing that. But -- so some of those things did go through my mind, and I certainly did think of some of those options as I was doing that.

And OK. So --

COLLINGS

Well, where does the Native American piece --

RUSSELL

Yeah, that's another thread. That's another thread.

Shortly after I moved here, somehow or other, the book Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee came into my hands; I don't remember how it -- how I got it. But...I read -- well, I tried to read the book once. I started it, and I could not read it. It was so profoundly disturbing to me I couldn't handle it. And then after several months, I tried it again. Because my education on the whole history of European conquest of this continent had really been in terms of Manifest Destiny. It was all this great, glorious thing -- "civilization of the continent." And the reality that was presented in that book was devastating to me, and it was very hard for me to get through it, and to integrate it into me without being in such a state of remorse and pain on behalf of these people, and guilt because these were my ancestors that did this --

COLLINGS

And particularly YOUR ancestors.

RUSSELL

That's true. So one of the first things I did was get the pictures from the book blown up like this, and put them on my wall as a -- an homage to their culture, and... But that of course wasn't enough. I came to see myself and the entire environmental movement as the children of a marriage between two cultures on this continent: the European culture and the American Indian culture, the ecological wisdom of the American Indians linked to -- in marriage; married to technological ability and know-how. And that is a second part of the foundation of Eco-Home, is the marriage of those two in creating my lifestyle, marrying ecological wisdom of the American Indians to scientific technology and knowledge, because I knew that there is no chance of culture or civilization going backwards to the way American Indians lived. In fact, we couldn't at this point -- there are too many of us. There's no way we could. So there's no way to go but forward, but I came to realize that the way forward must be science and technology INFORMED by ecological wisdom. And with that combination, we can create a sustainable civilization. Science and technology alone can't do it, because it will take us down paths that will destroy, because that's what they're doing. That's what's already happened. We'll destroy the life support systems of the planet. I mean, that's in process right now. So the only way forward to sustainability is the marriage of the two, and that's the key, I think: science and technology informed by ecological wisdom. And so that became -- and that also helped me to integrate the history of European conquest of this continent, and feel that it was...not in vain...that these people and these cultures died.

COLLINGS

Yeah. So what is the history of these particular photographic portraits of Native Americans that we see here in the living room?

RUSSELL

Well, at -- when I first put them up, I knew them all, and I knew all their histories. They've been up a long time. I don't remember really all of them, or the particular histories. There's, of course, Geronimo there on the bottom right. And...Santanta in the middle, of the Sioux. And...you know, I'd have to take them down. I know --

COLLINGS

Oh, that's quite all right.

RUSSELL

-- they're all written -- I have it all written on the back. But I've just -- I've forgotten their personal stories. I would have to go back to the book (inaudible) because it wasn't even so much their personal -- they're not here because of their personal stories so much as representatives of the culture that they represent, and the ecological wisdom that was intrinsic to their culture. And so they are here kind of as -- to keep me on the straight and narrow and I've made a pledge to them that everything that I do here will meet with their approval. That's what I'm seeking to do in my life here.

COLLINGS

OK. OK. So let's go on and talk about some of the things that you've done with the house. You've -- you have the xeriscape in the front yard, and you had mentioned that you -- as soon as you could, you had put in low-flow devices on your faucets and shower, and...

RUSSELL

Oh, I did those, yeah, pretty early. Yeah.

COLLINGS

But you've also gone on, and you have solar panels on the roof, and you have the light pipe, which provides daylight during the day, substituting for the use of electricity. And you have the food garden in the back. So sort of how did you come to each of these innovations?

RUSSELL

Well...can I just stop for a minute?

COLLINGS

Yeah. Of course.

RUSSELL

So many thoughts going through my mind at once.

COLLINGS

All right. (break in audio)

COLLINGS

OK. So now we're going to shift from what brought you to creating Eco-Home to the moment when you turned Eco-Home into an organization.

RUSSELL

Yeah. It all happened slowly and organically as I did these different -- made these changes within my own lifestyle, I began to be more and more aware of the larger implications. And...I started to think in terms of how I could get other people involved? And I'm trying to think of how I originally did that, how I started to reach out to people, because it certainly wasn't -- there -- it wasn't from my existing social groups originally that the -- that people first got involved. You know, I -- we'll have to maybe come back to that. I'll have to go back into my notes and stuff and see if I can remember how it was.

But some time around the early Eighties, a few people began to be aware of what I was doing, and I can't remember how (laughter) right now, and started to come by and help me, and want to do similar things in their own homes. And so it started to be a little bit of a small core group of people that began -- we began to be talking about the same things, and thinking along the same lines, and by 1985, there were enough of us to start talking about publishing a newsletter. And we actually did start to publish our newsletter, Ecolution, which I gave you a copy of, back in 1985. And Bob Walter was involved at that time, and...Brad Mauers, [Kevin Schwietzer] and Jeff Tucker, and Gary Stonelake.

And so we published -- started publishing a newsletter in 1985. And that was the beginning of the Eco-Home Network, and the beginning of thinking of it as something beyond just my own personal quest; that it began to open out, to involve more people. And it was also at that time that I did start to engage with the city of Los Angeles, and I -- at that time is when I created the logo, and I -- if -- I don't know if people recognize it, but in the logo, there's a picture of a house in front with a globe underneath the roof, which is Eco-Home, but then in the background is a city skyline with the top of City Hall on it. So my idea was to link to the city of Los Angeles to start to expand these practices, these changes in policy about how a city runs, and how people live in cities, and I was beginning to think in those terms then.

And one of the things we got involved in was to encourage the city of Los Angeles to start recycling, recycling waste, as much waste as possible, instead of landfilling it or -- the other thing they were proposing at that time -- it was the catalyst that started our activism in this direction -- was to build a large incinerator in South Central to burn waste. So we joined with several South Central organizations, one of them being the Citizens for South Central, and formed an organization called URN: Urban Resource Network. It was a coalition of environmental organizations in L.A.formed to lobby City Hall not to do this, and instead to go to recycling. So our combined efforts did get the city not to put that incinerator there, but they didn't go to recycling right away. It still took several years before they did ultimately go to the recycling program, create the recycling program. And -- but that was one thing that I was involved in the city with. And several other things that I'm not remembering right at this moment, but...

COLLINGS

How did you distribute your newsletter?

RUSSELL

Through -- by hand, different groups. We -- there were about five of us or six of us at that time that were involved, and we all would take them to our neighborhoods and give them out, and put them in libraries and bookstores, and things like that.

COLLINGS

And what was the purpose of the newsletter?

RUSSELL

The purpose of the newsletter was to start to make people aware, and to start to get people to think in the terms that we were thinking of, which is what can we do as individuals in our individual lives to help to protect the environment.

COLLINGS

And when you say "we," it's the group that you had --

RUSSELL

Yes, the group.

COLLINGS

-- just mentioned?

RUSSELL

Yeah.

COLLINGS

Yeah. And how did you first come in contact with this -- the group?

RUSSELL

Oh, I'm sorry -- when I say "we," I mean "we" as human beings. What can we do as individuals, as human beings?

COLLINGS

But you had mentioned Bob Walter and some other people.

RUSSELL

Yes.

COLLINGS

This was the group that had put out the newsletter?

RUSSELL

That's right.

COLLINGS

Yeah. And how did you first come into contact with these other people in terms of getting together and starting to put together a newsletter?

RUSSELL

Well, you know, I don't remember all of them. I can't really remember. One of them -- well, Bob Walter, who became the president of the Eco-Home Network after it was formed, I met through somebody I had worked for prior to starting Eco-Home. And so he was a friend of his, and then he became a... Oh! I remember now: there was also -- in San Diego, there was a man named Jim Bell who had an environmental demonstration site. That was the first one I had ever seen. And by that time, I had already Eco-Home, but I found out -- I don't remember how -- about him, and went down -- actually, the group of us, several of us, went down together and did a field trip down to his place. And then some of the people who were affiliated with him became involved with Eco-Home, too, so that was sort of a pollenization there that happened between the two organizations.

And so -- you know, I don't really remember how each individual came. It was kind of...mysterious, you know, how people were drawn here. I don't even really remember. And it wasn't through any concerted effort on my part, really, I don't think. I don't remember having done that.

And...so we started the newsletter, and that was '85. And...I think by that time, I had actually already started getting involved in planting the orchard. Yes, I had. That had been almost simultaneous with -- to the front yard, actually. I started planting the orchard. And that was something I got from Organic Gardening Magazine. I began to realize that we needed to start growing some of our food -- our own food, because through them I was made more and more aware of the huge toxicity of commercial agriculture, and that it was totally dependent on oil. Rodale Press, the publishers of Organic Gardener Magazine, were very actively educating on the subject then. They had a project called "the Cornucopia Project" that was focused on educating people about industrial agriculture and its impact on the environment, and the alternative, organic agriculture. And so I began to realize that we really needed to start thinking about growing our food in a different way from the way we were, and it needed -- we needed to switch to organic agriculture. And here I was with a front and back yard in a climate that could grow food year-round, and if I was wanting to move my life towards a more sustainable lifestyle, I had to start thinking about growing food, and I had to start thinking about growing food organically.

So the first step was fruit trees, because frankly, I was not too keen on going into vegetable growing, because my experience with vegetable growing prior to this had been weeding my parents' victory garden, which -- in the midsummer, in the hot sun, I had not liked at all. So I really went first to fruit trees (laughter) because it seemed a little bit easier. And so I ended up with 28 fruit and nut trees on the property, and getting fruit year-round now. So that was -- that turned out to be a big success.

Then several years later, I knew I had to bite the bullet and think about vegetable growing. And it just so happened serendipitously that the great teacher of Permaculture, Bill Mollison, gave a talk at Cal[ifornia] State University, Northridge on permaculture.

RUSSELL

Which I had just heard a little bit here and there about. I really didn't know much about it. But I heard he was there. So I went up to that, and had my mind blown open by his insight into, number one, what the problem with industrial agriculture was, and why we were having the problems with it that we were having, and number two, what a sustainable alternative was. And essentially, permaculture is a system whereby we integrate human habitation and food growing based on the way nature works, the way nature sustains itself, rather than imposing this industrial model onto nature, which is what commercial, industrial agriculture is. And it was so aligned with my thinking and feeling and all at that point that I just embraced it wholeheartedly.

And at that point, there was a young man, Brian Hutchings, a student of permaculture, whom I met there that day who was looking for a place to live and practice permaculture. So he moved into that little house in the back.

Brian really guided me through the process of transforming my back yard into an organic food garden. And we started with -- well, I -- should I go into the actual process of sheet mulching, or is that not really appropriate for this? Probably not. It probably isn't. I don't know. What do you think?

COLLINGS

Well, I mean, if it's part of the story in some way. But if it's just like a sort of a technical explanation, it's probably...

RUSSELL

Well, I'm so in love with the process, I'm not really objective. So I'll probably not say -- I probably won't do it, you know? Because I am just very prejudiced about it. (laughter) I love it so much.

But anyway, he took my hand, basically, and guided me through the process of transforming the back yard into a -- an organic food garden. So for a while, during the 80's, I was giving -- I was going around giving talks on commercial agriculture, industrial agriculture, and what we needed to do and everything, because I was so passionate about it.

COLLINGS

If you don't -- allow me to interrupt: was this the first time that you had started giving talks on any aspect of --

RUSSELL

Yeah, that's right.

COLLINGS

-- Eco-Home?

RUSSELL

That's true, come to think of it. That was. And I'm trying to remember where I gave the talks, and I can't even remember where I gave them.

COLLINGS

And what was it that you were so passionate about with regard to this process?

RUSSELL

Well, you know, as I -- as part -- as I made these changes, both physical and spiritual, I was being changed, and my connection to the Earth, to the living Earth, and to the entire -- what I came to see as the family of life on Earth -- oh, that's another story. That's another thread that goes into Eco-Home. I became as passionately engaged in protecting it as one does with protecting one's family. That -- because that's how it is for me. The entire -- all of life on Earth I see as family. And that vision started when I went to the Muir Woods, and this is where the first life commitment to the concept of Eco-Home came about. I had begun to evolve this idea of Eco-Home, a demonstration home, but -- and I was -- I had started doing this stuff, but the concept of it was not fully formed, and I hadn't fully committed to it.

I went up to the Muir Woods, and one morning, got up early and walked up a hill. I looked down into the valley, I saw this fertile, green valley filled with mist, and I was up above the mist and the sun was rising, and I sat down; I -- beneath a young laurel -- California bay laurel tree -- and watched as the sun's rays slowly evaporated the mist from the valley. And I felt the intensity of life all around me. As the mist disappeared and the sun's rays just pierced all the way down to the soil and the valley itself, and I saw the sun eternally fecundating Earth. I saw the sun as truly the father of life on Earth, and the Earth truly as the mother of life on Earth; that life could not exist without the energy of both combined. And so the reality of Father Sun and Mother Earth became very, very...substantial to me. And literal. (laughter) And I then saw that yes, we are all the children of Father Sun and Mother Earth. (laughter) We are all...their children. And I reached up to the trees and said, "Hello, sisters." And experienced it so profoundly, and still experience it so profoundly that the passion is just inevitably there, inescapably there.

And that is what sustains me for -- you know, through everything. And I'm so grateful that I had that opportunity, and it was through a friend just kind of coming by and saying, "Hey, you want to go to the Muir Woods?" and, you know, took me up there, this amazing thing happened. And at that point, coming down the hill, I made my commitment, and this concept of Eco-Home then solidified for me, and I said, "OK, Eco-Home will be my...headquarters for helping to transform this civilization, human civilization on Earth." Kind of grandiose, (laughter) to say the least.

COLLINGS

Now, what year was that?

RUSSELL

Oh, gosh. I'd have to go back into my journals to find that out. But that was probably...'78, '79, '80? Somewhere in there. Somewhere in there.

COLLINGS

OK. Just...

RUSSELL

After I had started some of these projects here, you know, and -- OK. So that was another thread, then, that came in. And that's when I began to also conceptualize how this could become a headquarters for transforming civilization. (laughter) By the way, that was another reason that I had doubts about my sanity during this whole evolution of it, because I mean, what is that but what they call "infantile grandiosity," right? (laughter)

COLLINGS

Did you ever consult someone about that, or you just didn't worry about it? (laughter)

RUSSELL

I did worry about it. I did worry about it. It was one of the things that would contribute to some of my dark nights of the soul. I did worry about it. But one of the things that helped me was realizing that most people who are truly mad don't realize that they are mad, whereas I was painfully cognizant of the fact that I was in some ways acting like a mad person, a crazy person. So that helped me. And then as I said, all these newsletters and magazines that I was reading and everything kept bolstering my knowledge level, to the point where I could see the evidence that the actions I was taking were directly related to these problems, and directly related to solving these problems. So that helped me, too.

One of the things that I began to think about was how will this work? How will this work? You know? And one of the things I knew I did not want to do was what I had done in New York City with SANE, going out into the streets trying to talk to people who did not want to hear what I had to say -- because that was something I learned there was that it is not really very useful to try and talk to people who don't want to hear you. It's an enormous expenditure of energy for virtually no results. So that made me think in terms of inviting people -- not buttonholing them (laughter) to listen to me, but inviting people to come. And being in a place where they would want to come. In fact, it -- not only inviting, the concept of seducing the people who came to want - to desire a sustainable home a sustainable lifestyle for themselves. So that began to help me to -- in a way, it helped me to justify my focus on beautification of this environment: that this environment should not only be sustainable as much as possible, but it should be so beautiful that people coming to it would say, "Oh! I want this!" Not, "I should do this," but, "This is what I want!" Because that was the only way I wanted to be relating to people. I didn't want to be lecturing them; I didn't want to be blaming them; I didn't want to be badgering them. (laughter) I wanted to be inviting and seducing them into another way of living.

And so that was a very important part of how Eco-Home evolved, because thats -- how it works. The people who come to Eco-Home are self-selecting. Nobody comes through that gate unless they want to, unless they have already started asking the crucial question, "What can I do? What can I do to make a difference, to help to protect the Earth, and protect our life support systems?" And so that was an enormously helpful learning that I had gotten from my earlier activism. It enabled me to create an environment here that I could live in comfortably, and not be forced to be doing things in the name of spreading the word that were not comfortable and life-supporting for myself. So that's an essential element of how Eco-Home is structured. And I'm very grateful that I had that learning early on. Because I certainly couldn't have done it as long as I have done it if I had had to be doing the kinds of things that I did for the peace movement, which was too stressful, too energy draining.

COLLINGS

Yeah. Now, you say that the people who come are people who want to come. How do they -- how, in the early days, did they find out about it?

RUSSELL

Through the newsletter. By that time, we were distributing the newsletter to libraries all over the city. And...OK. So the tours -- OK. So then, let's get back to the tours. So by that -- by the time the tours started, I had completed the front yard, I had planted the orchard, Brion and I had created the vegetable garden in back. We hadn't yet created the office in the garage yet; that hadn't happened yet. But a lot of systems had been put in: the drip irrigation had been put in; the soaker hose irrigation in the back had put in. So a lot of systems had been put in. And I had solar hot water put in. I had done that. That's right. That was one of the first things I did, actually, in terms of thinking about energy. Oh, we haven't talked about energy yet.

COLLINGS

No.

RUSSELL

Yeah. OK, that was really -- well, one of the second -- that was the -- after the drought, the second thing I began to attend to was energy, because from my newsletters and magazines that I read -- was reading, I learned about -- well, I learned, number one, that the last area of pristine air quality in the United States was in the Four Corners area. I think it's Arizona --

COLLINGS

New Mexico.

RUSSELL

New Mexico. Utah?

COLLINGS

I --

RUSSELL

Right? I can't remember.

COLLINGS

It makes sense, yeah. Probably Texas?

RUSSELL

Nevada. No, not Texas.

COLLINGS

Oh, OK.

RUSSELL

Anyway, I forget those four states, but it was called the Four Corners area. Last area of pristine air quality in the United States. Wouldn't you know, that is exactly where several western utilities decided to build coal-fired electricity plants. And that just horrified me. And I, first of all, began realizing how absurd it was that Los Angeles was not the solar capital of the world, and secondly, that we had to switch from fossil fuel-based electricity generation to renewable, non-polluting resources, and southern California obviously was -- should be solar powered. And -- OK.

So first thing I actually did was get a plumber friend of mine (laughter) to work with me on constructing solar hot water panels, which I had bought from a company in Arizona. And they sent it as a kit, and then they ran workshops in nearby colleges to help people put the kits together. And so it so happened there was one right down here at L.A. CC, which is --

COLLINGS

On Vermont, yeah.

RUSSELL

-- very close to me. So my friend the plumber, Jim Woolsey, and I went there and put these panels together. And he actually mounted them on the roof. And we have been using solar heated water here for -- since -- 1981 was when those went up. And it's performed flawlessly except for having to replace the pump once since then, and that was only because something went wrong somewhere, and I can't remember how it was that it was continuing to pump when there was no water to pump. And I don't remember why that happened. It may be that the water supply was cut off temporarily. But that's been trouble-free all this time. And it heats all of our water all year-round, except for a very few days in mid-winter, when there are two or three days of overcast, cold weather, in which case we have an on-demand water heater, which is tankless -- also called a tankless water heater that kicks in to heat the water, those extra few degrees to make it -- to bring it up to the temperature level we've set it at.

So it started with that, and then Gary Flomenhoff (we called him "Gary Flo"), one of our small group that had formed had been living on an -- a sailboat and running his electrical equipment using three small photovoltaic panels. He was changing his life and going back to school, and he sold his sailboat, and donated these panels to us, and helped us install them. And then another one of our early members, Ulrich Buelhoff, set up our first photovoltaic electrical system in the house, which includes these ceiling lights in the living room, the ceiling lights in the kitchen, both bedrooms have a photovol- a solar electric outlet in them, and the office also has ceiling lights powered by that small photovoltaic system. That was our first photovoltaic or solar electric system.

1.3. Session 3 ( August 1, 2007)

COLLINGS

OK, Julia. Good morning.

RUSSELL

Good morning.

COLLINGS

It's Jane Collings interviewing Julia Russell at her home, her Eco-Home, on August 1st, 2007. And as we just discussed, last time we were talking about how you developed Eco-Home into a demonstration site. And why don't we start off in 1985? You have begun to produce a newsletter?

RUSSELL

Yes. By that time, a core group of people had started to rally to the cause, so to speak, and so we began meeting fairly regularly. And the idea for a newsletter came up as a way to start to spread the ideas that we were wanting to promulgate about sustainable urban living. And so one of the members of the group [Gary Stonelake] came up with the name "Ecolution," which is a combination of the word "evolution" -- no, "ecology," "evolution," and... (laughter) It's three words. "Ecology," "evolution," and "solution."

RUSSELL

"Ecology," "evolution," and "solution." And so we've continued to call it Ecolution since then. And the idea was to just start to make information available in printed form to people about changes that they could make in their own lives and lifestyles that could improve both the quality of their own lives and overall environmental quality. That was the time when I began thinking of creating a mission statement, and so the mission statement became, "The Eco-Home Network's mission is to enhance individual quality of life and planetary well-being through education, demonstration, and building a constituency for sustainable urban living." That was kind of the overall vision of what the purpose was and how we were going to implement it. And that has served us very well guiding us with regards to what our programs would be, and how they would be implemented and such.

We started publishing in 1985, and we distributed the newsletters by hand to different libraries around the city, and members of the group who lived in different parts of the city would take a batch of them to the library. And at that time, libraries were accepting these kinds of things and making them available to their patrons. I don't think they do that anymore, as far as I know.

COLLINGS

There is quite a bit of literature in many of the lobbies, but I don't know what the arrangements are.

RUSSELL

Once we started sending it to our members, because membership included a subscription to the newsletter, I guess it became part of belonging to the Eco Home network to get a copy of it.

So that was one of the first things that we did collectively, as a group, and --

COLLINGS

Now, how did you build your constituency? You said that building a constituency was an important aspect of this.

RUSSELL

Well, that's one of the purposes of the newsletter, was to build a constituency; that is, to outreach to people, start to educate people. Really, the only way you can build an constituency -- at least for something like this -- is to educate people and get them engaged in -- and enrolled in some way in your goals and purposes. And so that was what we were aiming to do. And so our first active outreach was that.

And meanwhile, at the same time, I was attending...City Hall meetings, Council meetings in City Hall. And I think it was around that time; I'm not sure whether it was then or a little bit later that we started to lobby, basically, for recycling. And that took years and years, and by the time it actually was implemented, I think it had been forgotten that we were (laughter) there early on trying to get them to do it, because it had gone through a lot of transformations as the actual program evolved. And it was not along the lines that I had been proposing, which was that people who were already doing recycling -- that is, the people on the lowest socioeconomic levels --

COLLINGS

Oh, yeah. We discussed this. That is --

RUSSELL

OK.

COLLINGS

-- was very fascinating, the idea that the people who were coming around collecting the aluminum, collecting the glass, and sustaining themselves --

RUSSELL

Exactly.

COLLINGS

-- were cut out of this loop. Yeah.

RUSSELL

Yeah, yeah. Which I thought was very sad, and economically, a loss, because then what happened to those people, who -- you know, I don't know; probably a lot of them went on welfare, or did something else that might not have been so benign, and actually a social service. So anyway... That was --

COLLINGS

Well, initially, it was just single-family -- single dwelling --

RUSSELL

True.

COLLINGS

-- single-family dwellings, and it has now recently branched out to --

RUSSELL

That's right.

COLLINGS

-- multi-occupancy.

RUSSELL

That's right.

COLLINGS

Which is most of the city, (laughter) probably.

RUSSELL

That's right. Most of the city.

COLLINGS

So that's -- yeah. So that's a very positive --

RUSSELL

Yes.

COLLINGS

-- step, finally.

RUSSELL

Yes. I think it is. I -- you know, I think it is. And hopefully, they'll continue to find ways to build markets for this recycled raw material, essentially.

COLLINGS

Well, in fact, the number one export in container ships from the United States is recycled material.

RUSSELL

Yeah. So I mean, that's good in a way, except that (laughter) --

COLLINGS

Or recyclable material, I should say.

RUSSELL

Recyclable materials, yeah.

COLLINGS

Because it's going overseas to actually be recycled. Yeah.

RUSSELL

Yeah. Which is sort of a shame, because it's the same problem as with -- we are then becoming a supplier of raw material, which is the lowest echelon of the economic ladder.

COLLINGS

Well, the second-most -- the second export is actually empty containers. They arrive here full, and they go back empty. The number one export is the trash, (laughter) and the number two export is the empty containers.

RUSSELL

It's incredible. I mean -- yeah. So anyway, that's a whole 'nother discussion. (laughter)

COLLINGS

Yeah. That's right. (laughter)

RUSSELL

Although it certainly does relate to the home, in the sense that it's a macrocosm of the microcosm of the home, which has become in I would say the last 75 years, a point of consumption and generation of waste, as opposed to what, at one time, it was, which is a point of --

COLLINGS

Production.

RUSSELL

-- production, generation. Generation and production, something that was actually contributing to the community in a positive way. And that was another element of my creation of Eco-Home and why I focused on the home. That's actually a whole other thread --

COLLINGS

Oh, that sounds fascinating.

RUSSELL

-- is that -- and it goes back to the Feminist movement that was starting around that time, actually, in the Seventies, as I was starting to conceive of all of this. And much as I approved of many of the positions and policies that were being recommended by Feminist groups, there was an element of it that did disturb me, and that was that it seemed to me that in the enthusiasm to create opportunities and equality for women in the man's world, in the marketplace, we were abandoning the home. And I saw that as having dire consequences, and I am afraid that we are seeing those dire consequences in gang problems and a lot of other evidences of child neglect, a failure to inculcate socially positive values in children, which happens in the home. If it doesn't happen in the home, where is it going to happen? People are expecting schools to do that, but if it's not validated at home, there's not very much that schools can do about it. And then, once schools can't do it, fail, then the police are charged with it. And it's a losing game. It has to start at home, I believe, in order to be really embedded in our personalities, and that's where ethics must reside: in our personalities and our character.

And so anyway, that was part of my decision to change the world starting at home. Because I felt this was my power point, as a woman.

COLLINGS

Well, from an -- and from an environmental standpoint, as you pointed out, at one point, the home was a place where you produced goods rather than the home being a place where goods that are produced in factories, trucked in, carried home by automobile, consumed, trash thrown out, trash carried away by polluting trucks... It's a -- from an environmental standpoint, it's a very different picture.

RUSSELL

Exactly. Environmental as well as ethical in terms of values, yes. That's true. So it -- you know, once again, all the threads converged to focus on my attention on the home.

COLLINGS

But you never chose to articulate your -- how -- that you were thinking of this from your Feminist point of view? You decided not to make that a part of the public face?

RUSSELL

That's right. I decided not to because my -- I wanted to be as inclusive as possible. And certainly, at that time, if you mentioned the word "feminist," at least half the population is turned off automatically. They become defensive. And so I decided, what's the point? You know, this was just internal to my own process, and at some point, maybe it would come out, and here it is (laughter) coming out, you know? But so in that sense, I tried to make it inclusive by not focusing on that aspect of it. And also, I wanted to make it inclusive politically. So I've never really focused on liberal values or positions or anything. I am really trying to bridge all the divides that cause us to be defensive and resistant to each other. And especially when I first started giving the tours, there were people who came here with a kind of, you know... (laughter) ...challenging --

COLLINGS

Oh, really?

RUSSELL

-- attitude. Yeah, yeah. And my approach was always to try and find ways to make them right, and then bring them forward into a place where they could also allow me to be right.

COLLINGS

Yeah. And what were they --

RUSSELL

And our --

COLLINGS

What were they specifically challenging?

RUSSELL

Well, the -- things like "what difference does it make what we do?" You know: "one person can't make a difference." And -- you know? And it's not us -- this was before the whole global warming thing became -- and so that their attitude was, you know, "human beings aren't making a difference in the environment. We're too small, we can't..." And the Earth is going to go on whatever we do, you know, and life is going to go on whether we..." And so it was always -- my approach always was to make them right, and then that allows the defenses to come down, and ultimately we come to a place where we can both be right. And so that's really been sort of the fundamental approach that I try to bring to this project, is an inclusiveness and a sense of everyone is -- in -- according to my philosophy, we're all on the same path of evolution, and we're just at different points along the way. And what I see my role as being is just helping whoever is ready to take the next few steps, just helping them along the way. And -- but never taking the attitude of, you know, I'm right and I'm better because I'm further along, because I know there is so much further to go beyond where I have gone. And the most helpful attitude, I've always found, is being helpful, (laughter) not trying to browbeat people or shame people, or any of those things that have been used in the past to try and persuade people.

COLLINGS

Yeah. Now, you mentioned that your son's mother-in-law speaks Spanish.

RUSSELL

Yes. She is. Yes. She came from Mexico originally.

COLLINGS

And I was wondering, have you ever done anything with the Spanish-speaking community?

RUSSELL

We are right now starting to outreach to a very interesting organization called Mujeres de la Tierra -- "Sisters of the Earth." And I feel it's really, really important as the demographics of southern California changes and the Spanish-speaking population is growing, and they are moving up on the socioeconomic scale -- more and more of them are homeowners, and so their lifestyles become more impactful. As it has been shown, the more affluent we are, the more detrimental our impact on the environment is -- has been, at least, traditionally. So -- and furthermore, originally, the people from Mexico, from Guatemala, from Central America, from all those areas are closer to -- in most cases, closer to their agricultural background than we are, the white people are, and so I'm excited about connecting with them, because in a certain way I'm hoping that we can help to validate the values and practices of their parents, instead of so often, they come to this country, and all their background is invalidated, and they're made to feel as though it's all inferior and worthless, and they try to lose it as fast as they can to become -- to adopt this consumptive lifestyle. And so we're hoping that this is going to be particularly attractive to this particular group because it will help to validate some elements of their indigenous culture. So I'm very excited about this.

COLLINGS

And what are the particular goals of this partnership?

RUSSELL

Well, I have -- we have not met with them yet. We have sent out a letter to the woman [Irma Munuz] who heads it up, whose name is escaping me right at the moment. But to introduce ourselves, and say some of the things I've just said to you here: that we think this could be a really productive collaboration. But the real -- the goal is to outreach to the Spanish-speaking community in collaboration with them. They already have those connections and those relationships, and so I would like to bring some Spanish-speaking people onto our board of directors, and I would like to train some Spanish-speaking--

RUSSELL

tour guides to give the tour in Spanish to really make Eco-Home Network truly bilingual.

COLLINGS

Yeah. I think that's a terrific idea.

RUSSELL

Yeah. And so that's what I'm going to be working on probably in the next few months, is to make that happen. And --

COLLINGS

So while we're talking a little bit about the board, let's -- why don't we discuss your first board and how that came to be, and...?

RUSSELL

Well, the first board was really just (laughter) people who were -- had been attracted to what I was doing here, and who were starting to do some of the same things themselves, you know? And --

COLLINGS

And would you care to name them?

RUSSELL

Well, Bob Walter --

COLLINGS

Bob Walter?

RUSSELL

-- was one of them.

COLLINGS

The president at one point.

RUSSELL

Yeah, and he became the president of the board, yeah. Kevin Sweitzer, who was also an active member. Gary Stonelake, Jeff Tucker, Brad Maurs. Those are the -- oh, and Andrew Grygus, G-R-Y-G-U-S. Andrew Grygus. And so we started to talk about forming a non-profit organization. However, in -- during that process, which was a nightmare because I was trying to do it myself, and at that time, you had to fill out all the forms in, like, ten copies or something, and I submitted it, like, two or three times, and it was rejected each time and I had to do it over and over again. And I truly developed a -- I don't know if they have a name for a phobia of forms --

COLLINGS

(laughter) Probably!

RUSSELL

-- against forms -- "formaphobia?" (laughter) But now every time I see a form, I just tense up! (laughter) It was so horrible. Finally Lois Arkin, Founder/Director of CRSP who came on the board sometime around this time, referred us to an attorney named Lottie Cohen whom we finally paid $500 to do it right and we finally were approved in March 1989. We finally ended up hiring somebody to actually do it for us, and then to... But that didn't take place until -- finally we got it in 1989.

While I was working on it, in 1988, I started getting calls here from people who had picked up the newsletter and started getting interested in what we were doing, starting to ask questions -- well, the key question -- really, the key question, which is "what can I do personally to help protect the environment?" And by that time, we were starting to think about actually opening this home to the public as a way to help people answer that question. And so the summer of -- oh, and at this time, the -- one of the things that was stimulating the calls was that finally, for the first time, in 1988 -- I believe it was the summer of 1988 the mainstream media started to pick up the environmental story. We started to see, on TV, the pictures of the Garbage Barge traveling around the world trying to dump the garbage from -- what was it? Pittsburgh or Philadelphia or something. Couldn't find anybody who wanted the garbage. (laughter) And so people started becoming aware of the waste problem: that we're just producing such huge volumes of waste. And by the way, not long ago -- I would say maybe two years ago, I read a statistic that just blew me away, and that I use sometimes on my tours to make people aware of how much waste we produce: on average, for every truckload of finished product that we actually buy, purchase, and use, 32 truckloads of waste are produced!

COLLINGS

Wow.

RUSSELL

Thirty-two truckloads!

COLLINGS

That's astonishing.

RUSSELL

So 32 times the volume of actual product that we buy and use is produced in waste. And that just (laughter) dramatizes this incredibly wasteful way we've developed to --

COLLINGS

Yeah. That could be done -- put into a really effective graphic.

RUSSELL

Yeah. That's right. Yeah.

COLLINGS

Heal the Bay was doing a lot of publicity around that time --

RUSSELL

Yes.

COLLINGS

-- as well.

RUSSELL

Yes. Dorothy Green. Dorothy Green. Yeah.

COLLINGS

Yeah. And one of their messages was that a large part of the pollution in the Bay was actually coming from runoff from the streets, and that there were ways that individuals could work to help, in fact, clean the waterways. It wasn't just, you know, to be left to government agencies. That was one of their messages, and they had a lot of -- Dorothy Green had people who -- with a lot of sort of advertising and motion picture sort of connections to help get that message out.

RUSSELL

She is just a genius in terms of knowing how to create and build truly effective organizations. And if I had had my wits about me at that point -- in fact, at one time, I actually did say, "I need to study with you. You are so good at this." But I just was always -- seemed I was always so overwhelmed with what I had to do that I just never had the time to take off to actually go and learn how to do what I was trying to do.

COLLINGS

Yeah. You know, you were doing --

RUSSELL

I never was -- I was never really that good at organizational things.

COLLINGS

Well, everybody has their -- but I guess my question was -- and I know -- and TreePeople was also --

RUSSELL

Starting their thing.

COLLINGS

Yeah. And --

RUSSELL

That's right.

COLLINGS

-- Andy Lipkis was -- is very good at getting publicity. He never -- he doesn't --

RUSSELL

That's right.

COLLINGS

-- make a move without thinking about what the publicity angle could be.

RUSSELL

That's right. That's right.

COLLINGS

Do you think that your group was, you know, sort of getting some of the people coming by who had perhaps been --

RUSSELL

Very likely.

COLLINGS

-- educated by these other groups in the city?

RUSSELL

Very likely. Very likely. And I think it was mutual, because there were a few of us that were starting at that time, and so we were all recruiting people, enrolling people in the program, and, you know, we were all interested and concerned about all of these aspects of human impact on the environment. So yeah, I think was a lot of cross-fertilization there.

COLLINGS

Right. A lot of stuff happening at the same time in Los Angeles in the late Eighties.

COLLINGS

Yes. Yeah, yeah. That's right. And so -- OK. So --

COLLINGS

So you've formed your board and you've become --

RUSSELL

So we've formed our board.

COLLINGS

-- a non-profit...

RUSSELL

Yes, but no. Actually, before we became a tax exempt, as -- oh, the summer of '88, the mass -- mainstream media started to carry the story. So we saw the Garbage Barge; we also saw oil spills and animals covered with oil, and THAT mobilized a lot of people.

COLLINGS

Oh, right -- the Prince -- the Exxon Valdez...

COLLINGS

Well, actually, it was before that, I think, the Exxon -- the... That was --

COLLINGS

That might have been before.

RUSSELL

The Exxon Valdez was one of the later ones.

COLLINGS

Yeah.

RUSSELL

Yeah. This was early on in the Eighties. Again, like around '88, '87-88, we saw -- started seeing for the first time these things, and that mobilized people. And there was a third element that we were seeing for the first time on television. The Garbage Barge, the oil spills, and what else was it? Oh, yes: medical waste -- washing up on beaches!

COLLINGS

Right. That's right.

RUSSELL

That was horrifying to people, too. So that was one of the things that Dorothy was definitely --

COLLINGS

Yeah. That was in Santa Monica --

RUSSELL

-- focusing on. Yeah.

COLLINGS

-- Bay. Yeah.

RUSSELL

So that was, I think, one of the things that motivated people to pick up the phone and call me, and say, "What are you doing? I hear you're doing something that can help us do better in terms of our impact on the environment." And so that started me thinking about OK, let's really get on with opening this home to...

And so the summer of '88, the whole network, which was probably about 40 people at that point, 35-40 people, got together and spent the summer finishing up some of the systems that had been in place. I was filled with excitement and anxiety, because on the one hand, it was the fulfillment of my vision, to some extent -- not the whole vision, but an important element of it. On the other hand, I was terrified, really, of the public's judgement. Because in the process of doing all of this, I had kind of torn this place apart, and it did not look like my neighbors' homes. It didn't look like the -- you know, the neatly-manicured front yards and back yards, and just everything in its place, and everything new, (laughter) that I thought the public was wanting and expecting. And that was -- that actually did happen, to some extent. There were some people who came here at first and said, "This looks shabby. This is not what I want." And so my worst dreams came true. On the other hand, there were -- the vast majority of people were willing to look beyond some of the surface chaos which was still (laughter) happening as all these things were being completed, to the underlying principles, and understanding the systems that were being put in place, and what the implications, of those systems were in terms of impact on the environment and on human health. That was the vast majority, although there were some people who were really turned off.

And part of my effort has been to polish this place as much as I can. It still does not look like my neighbors, but it's developed its own aesthetic based on a more nature-oriented aesthetic rather than a human-dominated aesthetic, but still trying to keep my paths swept, (laughter) you know, and creating a level of neatness that can reassure people who need to have a lot of control over their environment. Because that, I think, it actually scared certain people to feel that it was out of control, nature was too overpowering.

COLLINGS

Interesting.

RUSSELL

And so I've tried to create a balance between nature having its way and still maintaining the parameters of human stewardship, just maintaining and demonstrating them so that people don't feel that it's just a wild place that (laughter) they're lost in. And so it's been --

COLLINGS

Well, I know that garden settings take some time to settle.

RUSSELL

That's true.

COLLINGS

And the xeriscape in the front seems to have really come into its own in terms of balance. It's a very settled and balanced and -- it seems to work very effectively. And then in the back now, all of the vegetable gardening, the fruit-producing trees, it -- they've -- because that's all so well-rooted at this point, it provides the sense of a tremendous engine of productivity in the back. And I could see that perhaps 15 years ago, that those -- the front and the back would not have had that level of maturity.

RUSSELL

You're right. That's exactly -- that's a very good observation. Thank you for that. Yes. Yes. There's a maturity about these systems and the environments, the ecosystems now that gives that sense of stability and settledness and appropriateness. Yeah, you're right, you're right. And it makes the difference.

COLLINGS

Because if you don't have that, then all you have are the technologies, the --

RUSSELL

That's right.

COLLINGS

-- solar water heating, and the sun pipe and everything. Which are fine; they're interesting. But you -- you know, to have those planted settings as well to really provide a sense of the yard actually producing something is a very different feel, I think.

RUSSELL

Yeah, yeah. I think you're right. So...

So the summer of '88, we all worked very hard to finish as much of the demonstration as we could, and we opened in November of 1988. And during this period, I definitely had the distinct sense that "the wind of the Tao" was in our sails. (laughter) We just seemed to be being carried forward on our path almost effortlessly. Not that we didn't work hard -- we did work hard. But we weren't working against obstacles. It just seemed to be all moving forward smoothly. And it was during this summer that Bob Walter's involvement became very significant. He was very effective in organizing and working on and supervising everyone workingo on the house and yards and systems--

COLLINGS

That's marvelous.

RUSSELL

-- one of the things that was -- signified this was that prior to our opening, I -- somehow, I was put in contact with a writer for the L.A. Times named Connie Koennen. K-O-E-N-N-E-N I believe was the spelling of her name. An excellent writer. And she came to Eco-Home and was very enthusiastic about what she saw, and really got it, fully got it. And she wrote a phenomenal article, which I still have, which I can give you a copy of.

COLLINGS

Yes, that would be wonderful.

RUSSELL

I have copies of it. It appeared on the front of what was then called the "View" section of the L.A Times, with a picture, and the whole front page was

RUSSELL

The whole front page was taken up with this article on Eco-Home, and it went on to another page. It was a very long article. It appeared a couple of days before we were going to open for the first tour. It was phenomenal. The timing -- we didn't plan it. It wasn't planned. It just happened that way. Just all happened that way.

The phone started ringing here at 7 am. It rang continually for three weeks. We had to have volunteers here answering the phone all day. We were booked four tours a week, 20 people per tour, so that was 80 people a week going through on the tours, for three months. [Both Bob and I led tours.] And then it just continued on for months and months afterwards, [after many months it slowed.] Not necessarily four tours, but then three, and then two... But it was -- it just hit the right place at the right time. People saw the article and flocked here.

And so that was our honeymoon period, in which everything just seemed to be flowing to us and through us, and we were just doing it. And it was a very exciting time. And of course, our membership skyrocketed. We gained many, many members. And so that's when the network began to really flesh out as a true network of people, homeowners mainly, although not all. There were many -- also renters, too. That was the blossoming of the tours that were the primary vehicle for our fulfilling our mission to educate and demonstrate and build a constituency for sustainable urban living, because everyone that came here, everyone that started to make changes in their lives became part of that constituency. And so it was a very thrilling time, and as we continued to give tours, we also continued to refine the demonstration. The office, I don't think the office had been formed yet, had been created at -- yet at that time. Either just -- it happened either just before or just after the tours started. I think it was after, because I don't think the architect would've known about us if we hadn't gotten the publicity we began to get. We got coverage on every channel, TV, radio, newspapers, all kinds of free publicity.

So in a sense, because I'd never done anything like this before, I got a very unrealistic idea of what it takes to keep an -- something like this running. Because everything was just flowing to us, we weren't really outreaching purposely except for doing our newsletter. That was our sole outreach. So I didn't think about creating a publicity department, or any of the things that you need, really, to have an long-term and enduring organization. So we just kept on floating along on that.

And at that time, I was continuing to educate myself about the overall impact not only of individual homes, but our cities as a whole, and learning how destructive and how unsustainable the way we have designed our cities is, and how our cities work. My earliest education on this topic was thanks to a great visionary namd Paul Glover, founder of Citizen Planners. And I have to say I developed this image of our cities as these great cancerous consuming cells that sucked resources from all around -- well, when I first started, it was all around the country, or all around the continent, and now it's all around the globe, and spewing out waste back into the environment. And I also realized our populations are growing, and we can't keep doing this, this is not going to work. And so I got really interested in sustainable urban planning, which was -- I actually did some work that, you know, I went all the way back into the mid-19th century. Ebecheneezer Howard, I think was his name. Do you know that name?

COLLINGS

No. (laughter)

RUSSELL

You smile. Oh, I think his name was --

COLLINGS

No, I'm just sort of thinking how nobody has a name like "Ebecheneezer" anymore.

RUSSELL

You're right, yeah. Who had -- developed a concept of what he called "garden cities," and it was kind of the first idea about creating cities that would work in harmony with nature, and that would provide healthy environments for people because during that period, of course, our cities were becoming --

COLLINGS

Highly industrialized.

RUSSELL

-- pestulations, you know? I mean, they were just terribly unhealthy. Then Sim Van der Ryn and Peter Calthorpe came out with a book called Sustainable Communities, and that -- so those were beginning to educate me on what's possible in terms of creating an ecology of cities, human habitations -- intense, dense human habitations. And how necessary that was, how we really have to do that. And so that got me interested in thinking in those terms, beyond the home, and --

COLLINGS

But you stick to the idea of the single-family home, rather than a Lois Arkin with the notion of the intentional environmental community where you --

RUSSELL

Well, not actually. I did in terms of I stayed here at Eco-Home, and I still did this. But I actually initiated this conference on ecological city planning.

COLLINGS

The conference, yeah. Which we are going to talk about. Yeah.

RUSSELL

Yeah. Right, right. I was the initiator of that. And by that time, by the way, Lois Arkin was on my board of directors. And she and Bob worked very closely with me in creating the first LA Eco-City Conference. In fact it never could have happenned without them.

RUSSELL

If we're going to have truly sustainable communities, we have to have -- we have to have greater density, but it has to be placed strategically. She's probably discussed all this with you in relation to public transit --

COLLINGS

Right, right. Definitely.

RUSSELL

-- opportunities and things like that. And mixed-use, so that people can live within walking distance or bicycling distance of all that they need on an everyday basis.

COLLINGS

Right. And also the thinking in that -- in Eco-Village and in other such communities is very much oriented around the social dynamic. How is --

RUSSELL

Yes.

COLLINGS

-- is that going to work? How does the shared governance work?

RUSSELL

Right.

COLLINGS

Whereas what you're talking about is more taking -- you know, taking a more sort of traditional American value, a lifestyle that we're all used to, and saying, well, how can we tweak this to make it more sustainable? You're not sort of refashioning the fabric of -- (laughter) you know, you're not asking people to do that.

RUSSELL

Not at -- not within Eco-Home, no.

COLLINGS

Exactly.

RUSSELL

But in this conference we were doing that, but we weren't really targeting the public at that point, in --

COLLINGS

At the conference?

RUSSELL

At the conference. Although there were plenty of the public; we did invite the public. But our focus was really city planners, people in the financial world, because their lending practices had to change if -- if the way the city was planned and developed was going to change, engineers, developers, architects... We were aiming for the professional world that was involved in urban planning and development and financing. So this is just typical of me. I -- it's hard for me to focus on one thing. Eco-Home has been a discipline for me, because I tend to get to one place and want to leap forward, and leap forward. But I actually imposed discipline. I did leap forward with this conference, and Lois -- I -- Lois was involved, and our -- the president of the Eco- and we brought in UCLA, the School of Architecture. So we -- I involved a lot of people in it. But it was kind of an indulgence. On the other hand, I knew it was the right time to do it, because I started to receive calls from developers asking me how I -- how they could incorporate in their development some of the features that we were showing here at Eco Home. And so I thought, "OK, this is the time. This is the time to do it."

Simultaneously, there was another organization called the "Ecocity Planners," [based in Berkeley] I think it was called. It was headed by a man named Richard Register, and he wrote a book -- one of the books that educated me on eco-city planning, the book was about Berkeley, creating an eco-city of Berkeley. And so they gave a conference in 1990 in Berkeley that I attended and Lois attended. And so that -- Lois and I had already started talking about a conference here, but going to that conference gave me a sense of reality about how something like that would be put together, and who to outreach to, and -- oh, yeah: we also outreached to all the City Council members, and...

So we learned a lot from the Eco-City Conference. It was the first one that they had held. They've been continuing to hold them all around the world. And so we then called our conference "The First Los Angeles Eco-City Conference". Now, when we published the book, we switched the name to "Sustainable Cities" because by that time the word "sustainable" was starting to become widely used, or -- well, not widely, but within the community. And so we wanted it to be a word that was familiar to the people who were already starting to get interested in moving in this direction. So the conference was very successful, and we had 400 people attend, and some of the people in the CRA who have spearheaded the sustainable urban planning within L.A. attended that conference, and were very, very affected by it. And throughout the city government, people - who had attended that conference were helped to think in a new way about urban planning. The whole con-

COLLINGS

Can you think of -- here, here, I'll give you the -- if you want to refresh your memory. Can you think of any specific examples that you can think of where --

RUSSELL

Well, for instance, mixed-use development. I mean, that was a concept that we introduced to the city of L.A. at that time, in which the idea of creating communities within existing buildings and areas of the city that would become economically -- sort of an economic ecosystem where you'd have the residences, and you'd have the workers, and stores and services, and you'd have the consumers, and you had everything all together in one place so people wouldn't have to transport themselves long distances to get to and from work, or to and from where they had to do their shopping, or -- whatever. Just to start creating these hubs of self-sustaining communities within the city.

COLLINGS

There are -- there's a lot of that development going up around some of the Metro stops.

RUSSELL

That's part of this concept of --

COLLINGS

Right. And interestingly --

RUSSELL

-- mixed use is around --

COLLINGS

-- they're finding that people are driving to these settings to go to the coffee shops, and to go to the stores, (laughter) and turning around and driving back home, and the people living there are, you know, continuing to drive to work. It's -- you know? But are shopping there. So it's successful in that respect, but the -- you know, that connection with the Metro stop --

RUSSELL

It hasn't been made quite yet.

COLLINGS

Just hasn't -- because it's -- I -- probably because it's just not extensive enough as a network.

RUSSELL

Yeah. I think that -- yeah. And cultural change doesn't happen overnight, usually. Usually. I mean, you know, it's a slow process. And I think that we just have to get to the point where more and more of us are totally fed up with spending half our lives in closed vehicles on freeways going ten miles an hour. I mean --

COLLINGS

(laughter) It doesn't sound very inviting.

RUSSELL

Yeah. I don't think it is, and I think that it just somehow -- most of us have to be forced into change. We find a way of doing things that is comfortable for us, and until it becomes really, really excruciating, (laughter) we'll keep doing it. (laughter) And I include myself in that. I mean, I became car-free probably 20 or more years ago, but it didn't happen overnight. I knew I should get out of my car for years before I did. You know, I got my bike, and every time it was time to do an errand, I tried to get myself to take my bike, and sometimes I did -- but sometimes I didn't. And I kept relying on my car until finally, two things happened, and one very scary thing. And I actually had an accident in which I hit someone.

COLLINGS

Oh my god!

RUSSELL

And it was terrifying to me, because I did not see them. I did not see them. So I don't what happened, whether I had some kind of a seizure or something, because I don't remember hitting them. I don't remember making the turn that I was making, the -- I remember looking to my right side and seeing somebody walking away from me on the sidewalk in a white dress that was going fwoosh! like this in the wind. Next thing I remember is there's a face looking at me --

COLLINGS

Oh my --

RUSSELL

-- through my windshield.

COLLINGS

-- gosh.

RUSSELL

And what had happened was that I was going very slowly -- thank god -- and I had a little Pinto Runabout, and so it sort of had a front that sort of went down a little bit, so it sort of scooped them up onto my hood.

COLLINGS

Oh, no.

RUSSELL

Then, of course, I -- when I saw the face in my windshield, I jammed on the brake, and then they fell off in front of the car. But luckily the car was stopped. But they did fall. It was a woman and her child.

COLLINGS

Oh my gosh!

RUSSELL

It was horrible. And so I didn't trust myself to drive anymore.

COLLINGS

I can understand how you would feel.

RUSSELL

I had to drive for a little bit longer.

COLLINGS

But you really didn't like it?

RUSSELL

I didn't like it, and I was super careful, and then -- oh! And then -- well, actually, my license was taken away because of that accident. And I don't remember how that happened, but I was actually relieved. It allowed me to finally let go. It was a very amazing thing that happened, actually. Just prior to that accident, I had received $15,000 out of the blue.

COLLINGS

Wow. That's nice. (laughter)

RUSSELL

It was very nice. But that allowed me to give $15,000 to this person that I had hit. [Though they weren't badly hurt, just bruised really.]

COLLINGS

Oh, that's great. Yeah.

RUSSELL

So we didn't have to go through any legal anything, and I just -- you know, I followed the ambulance to the hospital, and I was just --

COLLINGS

Oh, no.

RUSSELL

-- heartbroken, and talked to her, talked to the husband, visited the husband, visited the family, you know, and just said, "Look" --

COLLINGS

Obviously, you're a very --

RUSSELL

-- "I'm not a wealthy person. Here's this money that I just got. (laughter) I'm willing to pass it on to you for whatever expenses you incur as a result of this, or for anything else that you want." And so it was --

COLLINGS

Wow.

RUSSELL

Was it $15,000? No, it was $5,000. It wasn't fif- it was $5,000. I'm sorry. It was $5,000 that I received. So it wasn't a lot, but it was all that I had. And so...

That was a very terrifying thing, and so my license was withdrawn for a year. But then I never renewed it. I just never renewed the license, because I just -- and then interestingly, since then, my eyesight has deteriorated. And I don't think it was my eyesight at that point, because I was seeing clearly enough. It's just that something --

COLLINGS

Well, I mean --

RUSSELL

-- had blocked --

COLLINGS

-- it's a very --

RUSSELL

-- I had blacked out or something.

COLLINGS

I mean, with people on the street, and it -- I mean, obviously, any one of us is in danger of, you know, god forbid, hitting a pedestrian at any time. I mean, that's -- the streets are so distracting --

RUSSELL

But the thing that scared me --

COLLINGS

-- and busy...

RUSSELL

-- was that I didn't remember between looking at that white dress --

COLLINGS

Yeah: a distraction.

RUSSELL

-- out of the side of my window, and then seeing this face in my window. You know, it was -- there was -- there's a blank there that was very frightening. So I was forced, (laughter) basically, out of my car.

COLLINGS

You were forced out. Yeah.

RUSSELL

I was forced out of my car. So I have -- and that's another thing that I find really, really important in my work, is to remember that I am not exempt from any of the procrastinations and avoidances of making change that everybody else is subject to. I mean, I'm just as reluctant to make change as anybody. So I can't have anything but understanding and compassion for people who are having a hard time (laughter) changing. I know how hard it is. And so...

COLLINGS

And do you address that issue at all in your newsletters or in your outreach material? Or do you just sort of leave that up to...?

RUSSELL

No, I kind of -- I've never told this story about the car and about the accident before as part of my story. But I do often say, "Believe me, I know how hard it is to change. I am as subject to resistance to change as anyone." (laughter) It's -- you know, so I don't -- there's no place for me to stand and toss a stone at anybody.

COLLINGS

(laughter) Right. Do you have any way of evaluating the responses to -- of people to Eco-Home? You were mentioning that you had that one period when you were getting about 30 tours a week. Did --

RUSSELL

No, not 30 tours a week. No: four tours a week, 20 persons per tour, 80 people per week--

COLLINGS

OK, but I mean, that -- you were mentioning that one particular period right when you began, and you just happened to have all of that publicity.

RUSSELL

Right, right, right.

COLLINGS

Do you -- OK, I'm sorry. I'm must have misheard you.

RUSSELL

Yeah. No: four tours a week, yeah, 20 people per tour. So that's 80 people per week. Yeah.

COLLINGS

And that that had just gone on for a period of months?

RUSSELL

Yes. Yes.

COLLINGS

Did you have any way at that time of evaluating people's responses? Having them write something, or...?

RUSSELL

No, I didn't. Only recently did we start that. We now have a feedback form that, when I remember it, I ask people to fill out at the end of the tour. And we're only now thinking about starting to send out flyers or questionnaires to people after they've attended a tour to find out what changes they have made. Because this is something that we are constantly being asked in terms of funding. They want to know some kind of measurable demonstrate of our effectiveness. And we really haven't done that. And so we're trying to think of ways that we could. And of course, getting people to send back questionnaires is...

COLLINGS

Very difficult.

RUSSELL

Very difficult. And it requires a big investment of time and money on postage to send out these things. So we haven't done it yet, but it is something that we have kind of -- as something we'd like to do. Maybe we can get funded to do it. I don't know.

COLLINGS

Yeah. I know that Andy Lipkis, in one of their tree-planting drives, wanted to have people send in postcards saying that they had planted a tree and they were taking of this tree because it was part of the Million Tree Campaign.

RUSSELL

Oh, yes.

COLLINGS

And was very resistant initially to the idea of offering any kind of incentive -- you know, philosophically was resistant to the idea --

RUSSELL

Sure.

COLLINGS

-- of offering some sort of an incentive, but later came to the realization that, you know, if somebody sent in their postcard and was then entered in a drawing to win something, it wouldn't be so -- it wouldn't be such a bad thing.

RUSSELL

I'm glad you mentioned that, because that is a way -- you're right: that's a very good thing that we could use, too, something like that. Yeah. Excellent idea. Thank you. (laughter)

COLLINGS

Yeah. But it sort of shows how, at an earlier period, the environmental movement had this tendency across the board to be, you know, wanting to be supported for all of its good works in a very pure way, and that later on -- and one comes to the realization (laughter) that it's OK to have a lottery or something like that to get people to participate, so...

RUSSELL

Right. Yeah, yeah.

RUSSELL

It's a different era that we're in now.

RUSSELL

It is, it is. We're less idealistic in that sense, and more practical.

COLLINGS

Exactly.

RUSSELL

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Although I think in our heart of hearts, we still cherish those ideals, and hope that ultimately, people will do the right thing because it's the right thing, and they know it's the right thing, and they want to do the right thing. (laughter) That's what we -- and ultimately that's what has to happen if we're going to have a truly sustainable civilization, because you can't have lotteries to (laughter) -- for everything!

COLLINGS

That's right! (laughter)

RUSSELL

And so -- and I think it's happening. I do think it's happening. I mean, more and more people are participating in the recycling programs around the world, you know? And they're not getting lottery rewards for that, you know? So it's happening. It's just -- you know, one of the benefits of getting older is being able to see actual cultural change, and realizing how long it takes. I mean, this has been a 30-year process for me, and now I'm seeing changes that when I started, I expected in five years. (laughter) And then ten years, and then 15 years... (laughter) And now suddenly, in 30 years, it's all starting to bloom and flourish and happen on so many different levels. But it's -- definitely takes time.

COLLINGS

It certainly does. Well, and I think that in fact, the news media in a funny way is really pitching the notion of climate change precisely because these catastrophic images of floods and fires are their bread and butter, and always have been since the advent of the medium.

RUSSELL

Very good point.

COLLINGS

And so this is presenting the notion of climate change, and they -- of course, they need to have a narrative to string all of these wonderful catastrophic images together, and that -- lately, that has been the narrative, although they're always careful to say that it's, you know, not entirely proven, and perhaps have this scientist saying, "Well, we're not exactly sure, but it looks that way." But the images are what really impact people's imaginations.

RUSSELL

Very good point. Very good point. Yes, yes. I mean, it certainly was the images that started people on the path, too, of the Garbage Barge, and the oil-covered animals and birds and things. That -- yeah.

COLLINGS

Speaking of images and publicity, how did Ed Begley, Jr. become involved in your organization? Because he has sort of a recognizable media name.

RUSSELL

That's right -- how DID he get involved?

COLLINGS

And he won -- he was your first awardee --

RUSSELL

Yes, of the Sustainable Living Award-- and he was actually our spokesperson. He agreed to be our spokesperson for years and years and years. Now, how did we first meet Ed Begley, Jr.? (pause) (laughter) I don't remember. I don't remember. I'd have to go back in my records and notes and everything to find when we first contacted him, or when he first contacted us. I don't remember which way it was, because we both started this process of changing our lives about the same time, I believe. And...so I don't remember.

COLLINGS

OK. That's all right. I just... The -- now, the award that he -- you gave him --

RUSSELL

Yes.

COLLINGS

-- it was -- it's a sort of an ongoing series of awards that you're...?

RUSSELL

Well, we've only given two, actually, so far. He was the first, and then in 2000 -- 2000 or 2001? I think 2002, we gave the second one to David Hertz, the architect in Santa Monica.

COLLINGS

And for what?

RUSSELL

"Sustainable Living Award" is what we call it. And basically, it is for sustainable urban living, for embodying the principles of sustainable urban living, both in public -- in their professional and private lives. And so that's really the idea of the Sustainable Living Award. It's not just for what people do professionally. And that's, I think, one of the things that's unique about the Eco-Home Network, our focus isn't just what people do in one area of their lives. It's their whole lives.

COLLINGS

Because it's a holistic philosophy?

RUSSELL

It's a holistic philosophy, and we recognize that it is everything that we do in our everyday lives, all our choices and actions, both professionally and personally that impact the environment. It's not just one or the other. So that's why it's called the Sustainable Living Award rather than anything else that would be more, you know, narrow and focused.

COLLINGS

So what is the future of the organization? You've talked a little bit about how you are planning to work with the Spanish-speaking community in Los Angeles.

RUSSELL

Right. First, I'd like to just mention that one of the organizations that we became involved with early on -- probably in the Nineties, though, Nineties -- was the American Solar Energy Society. I think it was the mid-Nineties. They -- during the mid-Nineties, they were running a program they were calling "the National Tour of Solar Homes," in which they were inviting people who had installed photovoltaic energy in their homes -- both solar hot water and solar electric energy to open their homes on a particular day or weekend of the year. And they did that for several years -- no, wait a minute. That was the Real -- I'm sorry. It started out with the Real Goods people, the Real Goods...people.

COLLINGS

You have them listed here in the list of contributors to the organization.

RUSSELL

Yes. Yes, yes. Yeah. Well, that was something else that they did. But it was the Real Goods people who started the National Tour of Solar Homes. And then they did that for a certain number of years, and then they wanted to give it away So the American Solar Energy Society took it. Eco-Home Network became the organization that produced the National Tour of Solar Homes in Southern California. However, we -- because our focus is broader than just solar energy, when we did it, we called it the "Homes for the Future Tour," with the idea that the homes that were in the tour that we sponsored were demonstrating many different aspects of sustainable living, not just solar energy. But we ran the tour during the same weekend that ASES ran their tour.

And so we did that from 1996, I believe -- '96 or '97 -- through 2001, I believe. And -- or 2002. And then we just kind of got to the point where, though we loved the program, all of our members loved the program, but producing it became such a drain on our resources. And we never were able to recoup financially what we put into it, no matter what we did. And so we dropped it. The last few years, we haven't done it. It is being picked up by other, smaller local groups, which is nice. So the program is still going on, and it was always done the same weekend as the American Solar Energy Society National Tour of Solar Homes, so it was affiliated, and they helped to promote our tour, and we promoted their tour, so it was all a big collaboration nationwide. That was something that we did for a lot of years, and were -- are really -- we're sorry that we can't continue it. --

COLLINGS

And where were some of the other homes?

RUSSELL

They were all over. We had some out in Perris, California, which is way out in the desert, and out in Sun Valley, and Ventura County, and all over L.A. County. Did we have any in Orange County? We might have had a couple in Orange County, too. I'm not sure. I don't remember exactly.

COLLINGS

So was it possible for people to go to all of these?

RUSSELL

No, not --

COLLINGS

Or they would have to just --

RUSSELL

-- really.

COLLINGS

-- select a few?

RUSSELL

Pretty much, people had to select a few. And that was one of the things that ultimately caused us to decide that this is not really that sustainable, because people had to drive themselves all around southern California. This was not good. We -- at one point, I worked really hard to try and get some agency of L.A. -- L.A. city or L.A. County -- to donate some alternative fuel vehicles that we could use to transport people en masse around, but I never was able to pull it together. So that kind of was disappointing that we weren't able to produce it sustainably.

COLLINGS

Exactly.

RUSSELL

You know? Either financially or in terms of the transportation aspects of it. So --

COLLINGS

Perhaps you need --

RUSSELL

-- I think --

COLLINGS

-- to have a virtual tour, a web tour.

RUSSELL

Well, this is something we're talking about with some of the other, smaller organizations that have decided to take it up. We're starting to talk about virtual tours on our websites. So that may actually happen, which makes a lot of sense. The only thing that you don't have there is you don't have the smells and the touch, and you -- I don't think you get that sense of peacefulness in a virtual tour that you get from being here, for instance-- --

COLLINGS

Well, perhaps you could have the virtual tour playing at each of these locations. So if somebody -- somebody could go to one or two, and then get the rest --

RUSSELL

That's an interesting idea.

COLLINGS

-- via television. (laughter)

RUSSELL

That's an interesting thought.

COLLINGS

The wonders of television. How did these other businesses that you have listed here as contributors work with your organization?

RUSSELL

Well, South Coast Air Quality Management District -- many of --

COLLINGS

Not a -- that's not a business, of course.

RUSSELL

Yeah. Many of these government agencies supported us with financial donations on a fairly regular basis for the first several years, ten years or so.

COLLINGS

And you applied for this money through grants?

RUSSELL

Not so much grants. At a certain point, I kind of gave up on grants because we were competing with -- by that time, we were competing with organizations that were -- had very focused campaigns to save the whales, save the pandas, save the children, save -- all kinds of issues that were very urgent and very emotionally appealing. And our message didn't have that kind of urgent and direct emotional appeal. And all these other organizations are doing really important work, and yet we felt on a certain level, we were addressing the meta-problem, the problem underlying all these other problems, which is our modern urban lifestyle. And -- but we couldn't compete with the others. I mean, they were just too appealing.

So I started to evolve another approach. Now, this is the time I should really have gotten with Dorothy Green and learned from her.

COLLINGS

Well, one of the things that she did say was that she never had trouble getting people involved, she never had trouble finding money precisely because the ocean had such tremendous emotional appeal for people.

RUSSELL

Well, I think that's partly true, but I think she underestimates her strategic --

COLLINGS

Her skill?

RUSSELL

-- her strategic approach to bringing the right people in --

COLLINGS

Oh! Oh, she had -- definitely.

RUSSELL

-- and being able to bring -- knowing who they were, and being able to bring them onboard, you know? And engaging them, enrolling them. And I think she may underestimate her contribution to that; you know, that -- how important who she was and -- was to that.

But -- so what I did at that time was I evolved a concept that I called "Corporate Friends of Eco-Home," even though it involved agencies that weren't corporations. And I started to approach these individual city and county and state agencies to become "friends" of the Eco-Home Network. And to make an annual donation -- at that time, it was $5,000 per year -- to sustain the project, the Eco-Home Network project. And the -- yeah, and what we did. And so many of these came onboard at that time.

However, the problem was that when you create -- and my overall vision was to create this -- a group of agencies and corporations that were connected through Eco-Home, but also through their common projects, services, or programs serving the environment, or that had environmental value, or that were intended to protect the environment. have them recognize and help them to recognize their mutual -- what could be activities they could do -- together that could be of mutual benefit to them as agencies and corporations. A very ambitious vision, but I could see the possibilities of it. But I couldn't do it alone. I couldn't. Because each one of these relationships I created needed to be maintained.

COLLINGS

Absolutely. I mean, you've got some large organizations mentioned here. I mean, Whole Foods --

RUSSELL

And I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it all myself. I couldn't maintain all these relationships and still operate --

COLLINGS

Home Depot? (laughter)

COLLINGS

Yeah, that's right. I couldn't operate the Eco-Home Network, and do all that, and run the tours, and... I just couldn't do it all. And so unfortunately, this idea -- which I still think is a great idea -- never really was fulfilled. And I say that is the time I should have gotten with Dorothy Green and gotten instructions from her, because I believe that she would have been able to instruct me on how to bring in the necessary people to actually implement that. And -- but I was just here juggling so many balls, I didn't even really --

COLLINGS

Yeah, I know.

RUSSELL

-- have the -- yeah.

COLLINGS

As you say, she's great at getting people together and creating synergy.

RUSSELL

She really is, yeah.

COLLINGS

What kind of contributions have your board members made?

Board members have been people who have been supportive of our principles and our ideas, and implemented some of them in their own lives, and are willing to come to board meetings, (laughter) and in one case, be the Secretary, in one of the other cases, be the President. Fulfill the requirements of having bodies in a board. There are aspects of what a board of a non-profit should do that they have not done, and that is raise money. And that has been a problem, and I personally have never been a person that was good at doing that, and so I can't serve as a shining model for my board. And at different times, I have tried to motivate them and get them involved in it, but it's just not something they're interested or willing to do. And I haven't been successful in recruiting board members who would and are willing to do it. So I consider that a failing of mine: that I just didn't do what was needed to do to get a board together that really could sustain the organization.

COLLINGS

Well, one of the things that has al- has been coming up in these interviews has been this idea that the vision and the inspiration that is required to get an idea off the ground is -- comes from a very different place -- is a very different skill set, to use the (laughter) jargon-y term -- than what you need to -- precisely to raise money, to run an organization that... Just because somebody has the vision and they put forth an organization doesn't mean that their talent lies in this other area. And then what do you do? How do you handle that? So it's a difficult problem that I think all of these types of organizations face.

RUSSELL

Yeah. Except Dorothy. Dorothy combined the two. It was --

COLLINGS

Well, she said that she felt that she was somebody who was good at getting things going, and that she tended to step out of things after a certain point.

RUSSELL

Yeah. That's what I've been trying to do, too. But you have to set up the conditions to be able to step out.

COLLINGS

That's true, yeah.

RUSSELL

And she did that.

COLLINGS

She did that, yeah.

RUSSELL

She knew how to do it, and she did it. I'm going to just turn on the fan so we can have a little cool --

COLLINGS

Now, we've got that fan on. We're -- how -- is the electricity coming from the grid, or...?

RUSSELL

No, this particular fan, in the Eco-Home Office is powered by about five or six little photovoltaic panels on the roof of this building.

COLLINGS

OK, wonderful.

RUSSELL

Yeah, they're separate -- it's separate from all the other systems -- and it has no battery backup, so it only works during the day when the sun is shining. But I don't really need it at night. Mostly, it cools off at night anyway, so I don't need the fan.

COLLINGS

Oh, that's wonderful.

RUSSELL

So... Yeah, yeah. It's great. It's a solar fan. (laughter) A solar-powered fan.

COLLINGS

Well, it seems to make perfect sense that the fan only works when the sun is shining. (laughter)

RUSSELL

Yeah. I mean, back East, you have to have a fan at night, too, because -- but here, this particular little micro climate that we have here, generally speaking, when the sun goes down, it cools off, and it continues to cool through the night. It's a blessed, blessed climate we have here. Just incredible, you know? And it enables me to live here comfortably without air conditioning. Without the cool nights, that wouldn't be possible.

COLLINGS

Right, right. So in that respect, it's an ideal setting for developing --

RUSSELL

It is.

COLLINGS

-- this sustainable demonstration site.

RUSSELL

It is, in so many ways. I mean, this particular community allows me to be car-free and not pay any price, because everything is within walking or bicycling distance that I need on an everyday basis. And the climate is ideal not only to go without cooling, but minimal heating. And also, to grow food year-around. Year-round food growing. So it is. I mean, I think I mentioned early on when I came to California, I felt as though the plane had crashed and I'd waked up in Heaven. And also, I came to believe that we do really live in the Garden of Eden, and part of my goal here is to pull away the veils that hide the Garden, and that it's really only our state of consciousness that keeps us from the Garden. And that's part of our goal here, is to change consciousness so that we can see the Garden and live in it in a lawful manner, (laughter) you know, abiding by the laws that sustain life on Earth. And I do feel as though I'm living in the Garden of Eden. I mean, what could it be? Here, food is just everywhere.

COLLINGS

Falling off the trees outside.

RUSSELL

Literally falling off the trees. I have to watch myself, or I'll get hit by it! (laughter) Yeah. And coming out of the ground, and falling off the trees, and... Not that it is without input from me, but that's an important part of the change in consciousness, is from consumer to a reciprocal relationship with nature. Learning that that is the key to living in the Garden of Eden is being willing to participate in a reciprocal relationship with nature. We can't just take. That's being a parasite, and that's how we have tried to live on the planet, as parasites. And we just can't do that anymore. We have to become contributors as well as takers.

COLLINGS

Yeah. Well, that sounds like a wonderful place to leave it with you. Would you think -- would you agree?

RUSSELL

For now, yeah. I'll probably -- you know, I think I'll probably come up with some other things that I'd like to cover --

COLLINGS

OK.

RUSSELL

-- that maybe I can call you about?

COLLINGS

Let's see... Let me just -- [break in audio]

RUSSELL

-- decide to put it in. Yeah.

COLLINGS

OK. And so we -- we're going to get back and --

RUSSELL

Yeah, I just wanted --

COLLINGS

-- talk a little bit about Lois Arkin --

RUSSELL

Yeah, I just --

COLLINGS

-- in particular.

RUSSELL

Yeah. I want very much to acknowledge Lois Arkin's help to me in the early formative years when I was creating Eco-Home Network. She came in just as I was starting to want to -- well, actually in the process of creating the non-profit organization. She had already created a couple of non-profit organizations and knew the process, and in fact it was a friend of hers that she recommended as a lawyer to finally get our non-profit papers approved. So it was through her help that we got that done. And then she sat on the Eco-Home Network board for many, many years. Through the years, when we actually did the conference, she was on our board during that period. And everything that I know about running a non-profit organization I learned from her. She was my teacher in that regard. And I still call her when I have problems that I can't figure out what to do. And she has always helped me in every way that she can. She's the most generous person I know in the giving of herself: her time; her expertise; her knowledge; her caring; her concern. In fact, early on when we were starting this process, I think I may have mentioned I was working at a job to support myself.

COLLINGS

No, you've never mentioned that --

RUSSELL

Oh. Early on --

COLLINGS

-- in this interview.

RUSSELL

-- at the beginning, I was working at a job --

COLLINGS

You mean in New York?

RUSSELL

No, here.

COLLINGS

Oh, here? No, you didn't mention that.

RUSSELL

Here, yes. Early on in the process, I had to work during the week to support myself, and at a certain point, after the Eco-Home Network was formed -- and it was beginning to be very hard for me to do both, to run the organization and also the job, and keep the house clean and the yards and the farm -- "the farm!" (laughter)

COLLINGS

(laughter) And the farm!

RUSSELL

You know, and everything. She, without even telling me about it, she got together with the other board members and they created a fund that they each contributed to every month to pay me my -- a salary to run the organization. So that allowed me to finally devote full-time to Eco-Home, and that was because of Lois just --

COLLINGS

Wow, that's wonderful.

RUSSELL

-- organizing that and setting that up. So that was how I was supported and the Eco-Home Network basically was supported for a couple of years, until we actually started to fundraise for ourselves and bring in funds, and to get memberships that would bring in funds, too.

COLLINGS

And where were you working?

RUSSELL

(laughter) I worked for a photographer, actually, not far from here, down...in Hollywood. And I was basically in charge of organizing his stock photo collection that he -- his -- do you know what mean --

COLLINGS

Yeah.

RUSSELL

-- stock photos are? Yeah. So that as my job. Yeah. It was -- you know, as a job, it was OK. It was not an onerous job. It was pleasant enough. But it was not where my heart was, and where my creative energies were. That was all here. And so it was a great boon to me to suddenly be freed of that -- the need to devote so much time to something that wasn't really what I most was devoted to.

COLLINGS

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

RUSSELL

Yeah. So that was a great gift that she gave me.

COLLINGS

Yeah. And it's interesting that you mention the way that she mentored you, because in fact, she was mentored in her non-profit organizing skills by a woman that she was working for earlier, in the Songwriters Resource.

RUSSELL

All right.

COLLINGS

It was a non-profit organization that had been organized by this woman in the music industry.

RUSSELL

All right, all right.

COLLINGS

And Lois had gone to her and said that she would like to be basically apprenticed, and learn this business. So, you know, you're sort of pointing to this --

RUSSELL

Continuum.

COLLINGS

-- continuum of --

RUSSELL

Mentoring.

COLLINGS

-- mentoring. Yes.

RUSSELL

Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. That's great. She was a better student (laughter) than I am afraid I was. She learned it a lot better than I did, but... She's another, I think, woman with a brilliant strategic mind. And I just admire so much what she's done, because basically she has credited me with mentoring her as far as an environmental knowledge and understanding, and putting that together, enabling her to put that together with her cooperative background. And so at a certain point -- so she was on our board for a long, long time, and then after the conference, she really was beginning to feel that we had to move on to larger-scale focus than the single-family. And I was torn. On the one hand, I agreed with her. On the other hand, I saw that this had not fulfilled itself yet. And I didn't want to go on to something else before this had been fulfilled as much as I was able to fulfill the potential of it. And so then she went on to form the Eco-Village. And I've -- you know, we've been -- you know, maintained our friendship, and working together on different things throughout. But I have -- I'm awed at the scale of the project that she has created there. I'm totally awed by it. And I just honor her enormously for what she's done.

COLLINGS

Yeah. OK. All right. (laughter) Let's see... [END OF AUDIO FILE]