A TEI Project

Interview of John Lim

Contents

1. Transcript

1.1. Session 1 (November 2, 2007)

Cline
Today is Friday, November 2, 2007. This is Alex Cline interviewing John Lim at his office in downtown Los Angeles. This is our first session.
Cline
Good morning.
Lim
Good morning.
Cline
Thanks for taking the time to sit down and talk about your life. It took a little while to get it to finally happen, but I'm looking forward to this talk. We always predictably start at the beginning, so I'm going to ask you a simple question, which is where and when were you born?
Lim
Born in Seoul, Korea, 1957, September 22.
Cline
Who were your parents?
Lim
My father's name is Dong Sun Lim, D-o-n-g, S-u-n, L-i-m. He was, at the time of my birth, the chaplain of the Korean Air Force, South Korean Air Force. I believe that he was the first chaplain ever of the Korean history.
Lim
My mother was a homemaker. She was formerly a teacher. At the time I was born, she was already a homemaker. She actually passed away this year, August. So just a couple months back.
Cline
What do you know, starting with your father, what do you know about his family background; your grandparents, what they did, where they were from?
Lim
My father's father, my grandfather, was a farmer at an island called Daebu, which is, as I understand it, on the west gulf of the Korean Sea. His father was a scholar/mayor, he was very politically active, and as I understand it, they were from a very prominent family. They had significant wealth. But my father's father, my grandfather's brother, apparently, had an interesting life and some of the wealth had dissipated. All I know is that it never got to me, that's for sure. [laughs]
Cline
Well, you'd know, wouldn't you? What about your mother's side of the family?
Lim
My maternal grandfather was a merchant, I understand, and he was quite successful at one time. But like many folks of that era, they lost a lot of their wealth during the Japanese occupation. I know that they did a lot of traveling to Manchuria. But my mother was, nevertheless, well provided for, in that she was given educational opportunity, which was very, very rare at the time in that country. So she went to a prominent high school and she actually graduated from college. She would have gone to school in the forties.
Cline
Dou know where she went to college?
Lim
Seoul Theological Seminary.
Cline
Do you know how your parents met?
Lim
At the dorm. [laughs]
Cline
When you said Theological Seminary, I had to ask, because I figured there had to be a connection there. Wow, okay. Do you know how old they were when they got married?
Lim
I'm not sure, but I think they were in their mid-twenties.
Cline
So they waited a little while. What about siblings? Do you have any siblings?
Lim
I am the youngest of four children. The oldest is my brother Peter [Lim], and then I have two older sisters between myself and my older brother, Rebecca and Debbie.
Cline
They have western names. So you all came over here at some--?
Lim
We basically adopted a western name when we came here because our Korean name was extremely difficult to pronounce. If we had the easier Korean name, easier to pronounce, that is, I think we may have just kept the Korean name.
Cline
So what was your Korean name?
Lim
It's Sun Chun, but I have yet to hear a non-Korean pronounce that correctly.
Cline
Really?
Lim
Yes. Sun Chun. You want to try that?
Cline
Sun Chun.
Lim
Pretty close. I'd give you a B-minus. [laughs]
Cline
Okay. So you're listening for something that I'm not attuned to.
Cline
So let's talk about what Seoul was like when you were young. First of all, what do you remember about your family life? How would you characterize your relationship with your parents and your siblings when you were a youngster? You could include the kinds of things you liked to do or chores you had to do, things that characterized your home life when you were a child.
Lim
Well, Seoul, I was living in Korea from '57 to '67, that would have been a few years after the end of the Korean War, so it was in a recovery mode and they did recover, but it was still a very poor country in relative terms. Nevertheless, given my father's position, I didn't have a real deprived life. I would say I probably had a middle-class lifestyle in Korea, which would have been close to poverty. [recorder off]
Cline
Okay, we're back. I had just asked you about the nature of your home life when you were a child, the kind of activities you were doing. You were describing that Seoul was in its recovery period right after the war, and it's now a divided country.
Lim
Right. I think I also mentioned that because of my father's position I think I had a middle-class lifestyle in terms of economic position. But looking back, I realize that we were awfully, awfully poor. I remember the house being a pretty comfortable, nice house, but when I went back many years later I realized it was a little shack. So it's interesting how when you're in a certain mode and you are content with that, you don't really see the constraints and limitations that are with that.
Cline
Right, and in a context where maybe relative to other things it was really nice.
Lim
Absolutely. So I was going to school. I went to kindergarten in Seoul, Korea, and I went to an elementary school up to about fourth grade and then that's when we immigrated to the United States. It was a very--I just have these memories of having a lot of fun and enjoying my life in Korea. I didn't have to go through the stress of rigorous educational preparation for middle school or high school exam, because I knew I was coming to the United States, whereas my siblings did go through those rigorous preparation process and it gave them a lot of pain and stress, as I understand it.
Lim
As for the chores, we didn't have much, because even at our home we did have some help. I think we had a--I guess back then they called them, like, maid service or maid support for my mom.
Cline
How would you describe your relationship with your parents? How would you describe their parenting, looking back on it?
Lim
My father was a very progressive man. I think he was very conservative on moral issues, but on other things I think he was very liberal. So he always challenged us and let us pretty much do what we wanted to do. Although I know he had high expectations, he rarely vocalized them. My mother was a much more hands-on mother. I guess that's more typical with the Asian parents, if I may stereotype them.
Cline
And being the youngest, what was the dynamic like with your siblings and how do you think that maybe affected you growing up?
Lim
Well, I think if you ask my siblings about the same question, they may have a totally different view, but I think that I had to learn to survive with my siblings by being a good negotiator and being a good compromiser. But my siblings would probably say that I had the best of both worlds because my parents were more lenient with me and they were always looked upon to be kind and generous and gentle with the youngest.
Cline
And they'd already learned from all the ones before you, too, so sometimes they're more relaxed.
Cline
What were you interested in when you were a child in Korea? What kind of things captivated your interest?
Lim
Well, I can recall this one experience where my mother had a good friend who was a very prominent lawyer in Korea. He later on became a senator in Korea, but at the time he was a very prominent lawyer. He was the only lawyer that I knew of in Korea. I remember my mother taking me to visit him when I was a child; I forget exactly what age, but obviously I was under ten, and going to his home and just seeing the environment and the ambiance and the lifestyle that his family had really, really impressed me. I remember my mother speaking really highly of the man as somebody who is a crusader for the underprivileged and so forth. So I think that experience, coupled with other things that happened in my life in the United States, motivated me to become a lawyer and pursue a legal career.
Cline
Interesting. What about friends and things? What were your friends like growing up? Did they live right in the same neighborhood? Did you go to the same school, or did you have friends in--I'm getting also to the church question, because I have to assume that you were--
Lim
Because, obviously, we didn't have Internet and we didn't have cell phones, friends were the friends that you could see and touch. So they were all from the neighborhood, yes. I've kept contacts with a couple of them for many, many years, and I still have contacts with one of them that I still see when I'm in Korea, after forty-some years.
Cline
Wow, amazing. Describe, if you can, your neighborhood in Seoul, just physically what was it like, what kind of buildings or businesses or different kinds of people were there in the neighborhood.
Cline
Again, this is only a few years after the war, so I don't think any of the buildings would make it to the Architectural Digest. Really, the homes were all very small and they were just barely providing shelter, I think. But what was interesting from just observing from back then and even now when I go back, even though we were all in the neighborhood called the Hwayang-dong, there was the wealthier portion of the Hwayang-dong and there were the not-so-wealthy portion. There was no clear demarcation line, but you could sort of walk through the town and you can sort of sense where the line is. It's an invisible line, but from this point forward the homes are a little bit wealthier. I shouldn't say homes; the families are, and the homes look nicer. We were in the nicer area, but as I said, even then by comparison it's not a very nice neighborhood.
Cline
Do you remember the kinds of jobs that some of your friends' parents had, what their employment was that had them in that bracket in your area?
Lim
Yes. I think because I was so young I don't think I paid a whole lot of attention to the jobs my friends' parents had, but I know that some of the more prominent ones, I remember the family immediately to the south of our home was a colonel from the Korean Army. So they were pretty well off. A few homes down from there was a vice president of the largest soda company in Korea, which is still around, by the way; it's Chu Song Sai Da [possibly referring to Chilsung Cider].
Cline
What about things like businesses? How did you get your goods? How did you get your food? Where did you have to go? How was that set up in your neighborhood?
Lim
Grocery shopping was just basically walking down the street, down the hills, for more of the daily consumption stuff, but the heavy-duty shopping, there was a market called Nam Dya Mun, which I guess looked more like a mercado in Mexico, but maybe even more primitive than mercado today. But, again, this is back in the sixties, early sixties and late fifties, so the markets--there were no pushcarts in the aisle. [laughs] These are just people bringing their stuff from the farm and laying them on the ground with a sort of a cloth over the box that they put on it.
Cline
Growing up in your area during those years, do you have any memories of seeing any foreigners, non-Asians, in the area?
Lim
Oh, absolutely, because our neighborhood was in pretty close proximity to the U.S.--I think they called it Ni Pai Gun. So it would have been, the English translation of that would be the U.S. Army base. So there were soldiers all the time, the G.I.'s in the neighborhood.
Cline
What was your feeling about that? Any interest there?
Lim
Well, we were taught from early on that they were friends of the country and that their presence was important to the country's defense. So by and large, I think the feelings were positive towards them. I know in more recent years there has been a lot of anti-American sentiment, but as I recall at the time I think the reception was there; it was a positive reception.
Cline
Consequently, did you have any interaction with these people or were you exposed to any--
Lim
Very, very limited. Like showing off one word that you know in English, "hello." I think I knew two words: hello and thank you. So you practiced them whenever you'd see these guys.
Cline
What kind of exposure, if any, did you have to what we can put under this giant general category of western culture, music or anything like that that may have been broadcast?
Lim
I would say really none. You know, back then some homes had black-and-white TV. We didn't, but I remember one of our neighbors did. When there was a major news event, we would go to our neighbor's house and everybody would crowd in that small room with one small tiny TV and we would watch them. Then that was probably extent of the exposure that we had to western culture.
Cline
What about the atmosphere at the time in terms of the fact that you were in a now divided country and near a military base and probably, I would imagine, a certain amount of suspicion and concern at that time, what do you remember, if anything, about that?
Lim
I do remember having a lot of drills that were like what they called bomb wave drills. It was turn on the siren, and we would all look for places to--like the kind of earthquake drills that we have in Southern California. We had a lot of those. There would be at times these propaganda messages that were printed on small pieces of paper that were dropped from an airplane, and they would be North Korean airplanes that would come by. I'm sure the South Koreans did the same thing to the North. But it was one of those things where you pick up as a kid and you read and the parents would be mad at you because you read Communist propaganda material.
Cline
Right. Do you remember the kinds of things it might have said?
Lim
I don't remember the details, but I'm sure it had to do with praising Kim Il-sung.
Cline
Of course. What about, now, your father's a chaplain, and obviously you're a Christian family, how did the religious practice play out in your family life when you were young? Did you go regularly to a church in the neighborhood or what denomination was it, do you remember?
Lim
We did go to church regularly, although I remember, as a child, my sister and I, whenever we had the chance, we would try to find a way to ditch a church service to go to a cartoon shop. In Korea there was a--it was called a Manhwa store. Manhwa, it means cartoon. But there would be extensive cartoon books, a series of books, you know, from Volume 1 to 50, and once you get hooked on the first one, you've got to finish all the way to the fiftieth volume. And these things cost money to rent them. So what we would do is, instead of letting them bring them home, because my mom would be upset, we would go to these shops and use the money that our mom gave us to go and make the offering to the church at the cartoon shop and read the cartoons. But that was sort of an occasional thing; it was not our regular thing.
Lim
But to answer your question, we did go to church, of course. This is at a young age, so we didn't really think about the issues and analyzed or challenged those religious issues. We just went as a matter of practice. And that kind of carried us all the way through--even that came with us when we immigrated to the United States.
Cline
Did you go to Sunday school?
Lim
Yes. Did you?
Cline
No, I didn't. I didn't grow up religiously at all.
Lim
Oh, I see.
Cline
Was the church very close to where you lived?
Lim
Yes.
Cline
Do you remember the denomination?
Lim
I don't remember the denomination, but yes.
Cline
It was Protestant, obviously.
Lim
I wouldn't even necessarily say that. Yes, I don't really remember, but it was a church around the neighborhood.
Cline
What do you remember about people in the neighborhood who may have been other than Christian and what your interaction was like with them? Or do you remember any at all?
Lim
Well, away from the church we don't even get into the religious issues, so we don't really know who was a church-goer or who was not and what denomination they might be in. I should note that even though my father was a minister and a chaplain at the Korean Air Force, the church that we attended is not where he served. He actually didn't serve any particular church, but he was so well known and so much in demand, that he would travel to different churches in the country to be a guest speaker. I also remember that he was the personal pastor to the first president of Korea, which was Syungman Rhee, and he was his spiritual advisor. Sort of like Billy Graham.
Cline
Like Billy Graham.
Lim
Yes, exactly. And a lot of people do compare him to Billy Graham.
Cline
Wow. Okay. You mentioned that you would go to this cartoon shop with your sister. Is this the sister who's the next youngest?
Lim
Yes, that's correct. Right.
Cline
How many years apart in age were you?
Lim
We're less than two years apart.
Cline
So were you pretty close then?
Lim
Yes, we were childhood friends, I guess.
Cline
What about your relationship with your other siblings? And in talking about that, maybe you can explain the age difference, kind of what the spread is like in terms of from the oldest down to you, many years apart.
Lim
Okay. My brother Peter is seven years older than me. He is essentially now retired, but he was an engineer at one point in his life and a businessman after that. He was raised in Korea. Actually, he completed high school in Korea, so he's very much cultured as a Korean, whereas I came here when I was ten. That difference is just unbelievably a huge gap culturally speaking, even though they're a mere seven years' gap. But I think a lot is absorbed between the age of ten and eighteen.
Cline
Evidently. Wow, interesting.
Lim
Yes. So I think he thinks more like a Korean, he acts like a Korean. Even though he's lived in this country for forty years, he's very traditional.
Lim
My sister Becky, I think she is probably more bicultural, much more balanced than my brother is. She is fluent in both languages, whereas my brother, his written English is fine. I think his spoken English is a bit more of a challenge for him. So it's interesting that Becky, who came here when she was fifteen, adapted much better to the U.S. environment than my brother, who came here when he was eighteen. He came a year after we did, because my mom--
Cline
So they're three years apart?
Lim
No, they're only two years apart, but my mom wanted my brother to finish his high school education in Korea, because he went to an elite high school, and at the time there was this real, I would say somewhat unfounded mistaken notion that if you have a diploma from one of these elite high schools, that he's going to be benefiting from this credential, which in reality didn't mean anything. So yes, they're only two years apart, but he came a year later.
Lim
So, going back to Becky, I think she adjusted to the U.S. culture and learned English much faster than my brother did. By the way, both of them graduated from UCLA.
Lim
Debbie, who also graduated from UCLA, came here when she was almost twelve, not quite, and, of course she's much more Americanized than the other two.
Cline
So there's a pretty even age spread between all of the children.
Lim
Yes, yes. So it's pretty amazing what a difference one or two years make in terms of the ability to adapt into a different culture and country. The younger the faster, but I think the ease is probably exponentially greater at a younger age, if that makes sense.
Cline
It does make sense.
Cline
So during those years when you were young and you're doing these sort of take-cover drills and things, and having propaganda dropped on you from planes, what do you remember, if anything, about just concern or fear on your part, growing up in that kind of environment? Any at all?
Lim
No, I don't think I really had any fear. I just assumed that that was just a drill that was part of our lives at that time. You know, you have them in school, you had them at home. I don't think any of us really feared that the North Koreans would come down, marching down, especially we were so close to the U.S. Army base.
Cline
You knew all those soldiers. [laughs]
Cline
So what's the genesis of the notion to leave Korea for the United States? How did that start to happen?
Lim
My father, who had two bachelor's degrees in Korea from two different universities, was very education-hungry, and he, as I said earlier, was a very progressive man. He felt at the time--this is back in the early sixties--that the Korean education had limitations in what it could offer, and for him to be more effective and be more forceful in his ministry, he felt that he could benefit from U.S. education. He came to the U.S. in 1965, two years before we immigrated, to get further education, and upon arriving, he not only pursued his education, but he rapidly came to the realization that this would be a wonderful country to raise children and give them an opportunity to get an education in the United States. So at the time I think that it was easier to petition for resident alien status, totally the opposite of what it is today.
Cline
This is '65, did you say?
Lim
Yes, '65.
Cline
Right. That's when the anti-Asian--the laws were abolished in that year, so, yes, good timing.
Lim
Right. So he apparently petitioned for it and our whole family immigrated two years after that. According to my parents, it was never really the goal to become U.S. citizens and live here forever. The idea was to get educated from the father all the way down to the youngest child and then return to Korea. But I think in the process of just being assimilated to society, it became apparent to all of us that the opportunities and the freedom that we enjoy here were just too precious to give up, so we all became naturalized.
Cline
What were those two years like when your dad was gone?
Lim
Well, it wasn't that much different for me, because my dad was just a busy person when he was in Korea, that we didn't see a whole lot of him anyway, but I did miss him. I remember writing to him a lot. I remember telling him that, "Look, Dad, you've got to send some money, because we've got some economic hardships here," which was not entirely true. I was probably just putting a guilt trip on my father. [laughter]
Cline
Did your father know English?
Lim
Well, apparently he did. It's hard to imagine that, because the way he speaks English now, I can't imagine how he got his education here, but he must have, because he got his master's degree here. Then he got his Ph.D. and doctorate degrees here. He got a lot of degrees over his lifetime.
Cline
Wow. And what kind of preparation, if any, did you children have for the language situation?
Lim
None whatsoever. [laughs] I do recall my mom sitting me down and trying to teach me the alphabet-trying--because I had no interest in it whatsoever. I wasn't really a studious type when I was a kid. So, yes, when we came to this country, we didn't really know any English and not much preparation was done for it anyway.
Cline
That seems to be the largest single obstacle, I think, facing anybody coming in that situation. What was your feeling about this idea about relocating to a country far away?
Lim
Well, I had mixed feelings. I remember being very excited, on one hand, because I'm going to see my father and live in the country that, at the time, it was called the thing closest to heaven on earth. That was sort of the general perception that was prevalent among the Koreans in Korea.
Cline
That was my next question.
Lim
On the other hand, I was saddened because I was leaving my home country, my friends and my teachers, my relatives. So I had very mixed feelings about it. I remember getting on the airplane. At the time there were no Korean airliners, so it was Japan Airlines, JAL, and it was one of those airplanes that had these propellers in the front. They were not G.E.-powered turbine jets. And I remember getting in that airplane and sitting down, and when the door closed, I remember just crying like crazy. I remember crying and feeling, I guess this is really goodbye to my homeland, thinking at the time, because I was such a young kid, not realizing that I could come back, I thought this was it, I would never be able to come back again. Well, that proved to be wrong, because I went back to Korea countless times.
Cline
Wow. And you had a lot of relatives then that you left behind?
Lim
Yes, back then.
Cline
Did you have any relatives that anyone knew of in the North?
Lim
No, both of my parents were from the South.
Cline
What do you remember about their feeling of you all leaving? What was it like for the people left behind? Your friends, too.
Lim
I'm sure they had mixed feelings like I did. They were happy for us, because they felt that we were--they saw it as a progression, pursuing opportunities, and they were sad for us because they knew that we would miss the homeland. We all thought that once we got to the States that we wouldn't be able to eat Korean food forever.
Cline
Yes, I was going to ask about that, too. Did you know anyone else who had left Korea for the United States, or anybody in your family?
Lim
At the time?
Cline
Yes.
Lim
No.
Cline
No, nothing. Wow.
Lim
No. No, so we didn't really have any reference point.
Cline
And beyond this sort of "the heaven on earth" description, what awareness did you have or knowledge did you have of what the United States was like, specifically Los Angeles? Anything?
Lim
I had no specific knowledge of Los Angeles other than the fact that I knew that it was home to my father, but as far as the U.S. as a country goes, the understanding that I had was that it was a very powerful nation with a powerful army, because it was able to lend help to other nations, and that it was not a Communist country, and that was the important thing. It was a nation that was founded by what we were told as Christians, Pilgrims. So my father sort of hammered away with that. He said, "Well, this country, the reason it's blessed is because it was founded by God-loving, abiding people," which is the same group that enslaved millions of people from Africa, but at the time we were just told that.
Cline
Sure. Yes, a lot of people still are hammering that one right now.
Cline
Had you ever been on an airplane before?
Lim
No, that was the first time in the airplane. And there was no way you could have a direct flight back then, obviously.
Cline
Yes, I was going to ask, what was this flight like? It must have been very long, I would think.
Lim
Yes, it went from Seoul, Kimpo Airport, to Tokyo. I remember, because my mother had relatives in Japan. Two of her four younger brothers had lived in Japan at the time. A lot of Korean families immigrated to Japan during the Japanese occupation era. They settled down like the Korean Americans did; they were the Korean Japanese.
Cline
Right, the Zainichi.
Lim
Yes. So we stayed over at Tokyo and Yokohama for a few days, I remember, before we came to the States. Then from Tokyo we went to Honolulu. That's probably for a refill. Of course, my stay in Hawai'i was very short because it was just sitting in the airport. It would have been nice if I went out surfing back then, but never got a chance. Then we came to Los Angeles.
Cline
What do you remember, if anything, about your impressions of Japan when you were there for a few days? What was that like?
Lim
We weren't a war-torn country, so their infrastructure were much more improved. It was a cleaner country because their government has been in order for a long time. Clearly it was a wealthier nation. But I didn't particularly enjoy my stay there because there was a strong anti-Japanese sentiment that was within us, so that we were brainwashed with it as a kid going to school in Korea. And to a certain extent it's still there after fifty-some years. What am I saying? 1945, so after sixty-two years.
Cline
Right. Yes, and vice versa.
Lim
Yes.
Cline
They're not too keen on Koreans either still.
Lim
No, no, actually that has changed a lot. They embrace the Korean entertainers. The Korean entertainers are more popular than the Japanese entertainers in Japan. They embrace Korean food.
Cline
Well, I know they're starting to integrate a lot of Korean--
Lim
Yes, so I don't think the prejudice and the discrimination is as prevalent. I'm sure it's still there with the old-timers, but--
Cline
Well, I know that still it's very difficult if you're an ethnic Korean in Japan to--
Lim
Yes, they have this ridiculous law that unless you denounce your heritage, you can't be a Japanese. It's like me saying I can't be naturalized in the U.S. unless I say I'm not Korean anymore.
Cline
Right. Right. Yes. Oh, well, it's a point of view, you know.
Lim
Sure, but I'm being honest. I think that will change one of these days. I hope so.
Cline
That would be good.
Cline
So you survived this incredibly long, arduous flight on this prop plane. What were your feelings upon touching down finally in Los Angeles, and what do you remember about your first visions of where you were now going to settle down?
Lim
Well, I was awed by the number of cars, even back then.
Cline
What year is this, '67?
Lim
'67. You know, all the yellow lights and red lights on the freeway really shocked me. The size of the infrastructures were just amazing. I remember our dad driving us back to his place, which became our temporary home, and it was a small rental unit here on Olympic [Boulevard] and Burlington [Avenue], but it was still much bigger than the home that we'd lived in. Then he took us to a supermarket--I believe it was a Boys Market--and I was just really amazed by the brightness and the cleanliness and the organized shelves stocked with food, and the cart that rolled to put what you bought in the cart. The whole system, the checkout system, the counter system, and refrigeration, all of that was just very, very amazing to me. At the time I remember telling my dad, "Yeah, Dad, this is heaven," of course not knowing that you have to pay for all that. [laugh] I'm kidding. I actually knew about it.
Cline
Details. [laughs] Where was your father studying? Where did he get his degree when he came here? I don't remember if you mentioned it.
Lim
It was the--god, the name escapes me. I'll have to ask him about that. It was some theological seminary, but I can't seem to remember the exact name.
Cline
Here in L.A. or in Pasadena?
Lim
Yes. I know eventually he obtained a Ph.D. at that same seminary and then he went and got another doctorate degree at Fuller [Theological] Seminary.
Cline
I was thinking Fuller [Theological Seminary], so you read my mind.
Lim
Right.
Cline
I, of course, hope to interview your father, as well, but from what knowledge you may have, how much awareness do you think your father had of what the nature of the Korean community in Los Angeles was like before he got here? Do you think he knew there was a fair number of Koreans already here?
Lim
Before he got here?
Cline
Before he got here. Do you think he knew anything about it?
Lim
Oh, he probably wouldn't know.
Cline
Really?
Lim
No, we never really talked about that, so that would be strictly a speculation about his knowledge. But I can tell you that when we got here in 1967, there weren't that many Koreans in Los Angeles.
Cline
Right. We're going to get very into that. So you settled into this rental unit. How long were you there?
Lim
A very short period of time, because the rental unit was the upper-level flat of this two-story house, and my being young, I must have bounced around quite a bit, and the landlady who lived on the lower level, I think eventually told my father that we need to relocate because I was making too much noise. I remember being admonished for making too much noise on the upper level, jumping around a lot, because I needed to tiptoe around. I think my mom said, "That's no way to live for a young child." So we relocated to a home in Pasadena, Highland Park area, and we rented the house. It was a house, not an apartment. And that was a great life because I didn't have to worry about the landlady underneath getting upset about my walking around with too much noise.
Cline
So did all of you now come together then? You came with your mother and all your siblings?
Lim
Yes, all of us except my brother. He came a year later.
Cline
Do you have any memories of your mother's and/or your two sisters' feelings about this trip and arriving here in this foreign place?
Lim
My memory of my mom's perception at that time was that she was really excited about the opportunity that her children would get an education in the United States. I think she was also very, very apprehensive about us lagging at the school, because we were handicapped from a language and culture standpoint. She was also very concerned about the economic affairs, because my father, being a student and being a minister, he generally has not had a good track record in terms of giving confidence to his wife about the economic conditions of the family. He's one of those husbands who really always, "Oh, things will work out. Don't worry." That type of attitude. So my mother actually, I remember her being very, very concerned about those two things, education and economics.
Cline
Well, you walked right into my next question, which was, what was your father doing for income at this point to support--
Lim
Well, while he was going to school, he was serving as an assistant pastor to a local church called the Korean American Baptist Church of Los Angeles. That's on Berendo [Street]. So he was getting probably a very small stipend from there. He was also working as a truck driver for a company called Parker and Son, which I later learned, when I became a lawyer, that Parker and Son, among other things, makes directory books for lawyers. So that was the source of his income, which was limited. So my mother was the main breadwinner.
Cline
What was she doing then?
Lim
She took on a job as a seamstress, which she had never done before. I mean, she came from a pretty well-to-do family and she was highly educated in Korea, and she never had to do any kind of labor. As a former schoolteacher in Korea, I'm sure it must have been very hard, but she undertook that job and she did it very well, because she provided for a good chunk of the family living expense.
Cline
What memory, if any, do you have of her feelings about that? Any complaints, any bitterness? Or did you just never hear anything?
Lim
I wouldn't say that she was ever bitter about it, but I would say that she did have a significant physical challenge. I remember she was tired and she was aching here and there because she was doing more than the regular time. Whenever there was an overtime opportunity, she went for it because she knew it was a chance to make more money.
Cline
Do you think there was any expectation on her part that your dad should be doing something to make more money, or was it just assumed that by being a minister that this was sort of reality?
Lim
Yes, my mother was very unique and different, I would say, in that regard. Her priorities or values in life were such that she preferred that my father pursue his education and not be the breadwinner if it meant that it would get him the education and get the prominence that he needed to be more persuasive and effective in his ministry. She was all about empowering him, I thought.
Cline
At this point then, where were you going to church?
Lim
The Baptist Ministry. I'm sorry, the Baptist Church.
Cline
That same one that your--
Lim
Right. But even though it's called that, it was not the traditional Baptist Church that you envision.
Cline
Well, we think of Southern Baptist.
Lim
Yes, exactly. It was nothing like that. It was just like any other Presbyterian church here. I think it's because the minister comes from a Baptist background, but he certainly didn't run the church like a Baptist church. It was not a charismatic, evangelical church at all. It was quite normal.
Cline
How many Koreans were in the denomination, or was this a totally Korean denomination?
Lim
Yes, it was largely Korean. I would say 95 percent or more were Koreans. I don't have any idea how many, but at the time, if I had to take a wild guess, I mean, it was about a hundred or so people.
Cline
What percentage would you say was--was that your interaction with other Koreans in Los Angeles at that point?
Lim
Pretty much. The church was it. The church was it, because you go to school and there were just only a handful of Korean kids.
Cline
Did your family become friends with any other Korean families from the church? What kind of interaction was there with other Korean members?
Lim
Sure, of course. I made a lot of friends from church, and because of my parents' position at the church, we obviously had a lot of opportunities to interaction with other families.
Cline
You had to drive there, though, from where you were living, I guess.
Lim
I remember it's usually them coming over to our house, yes, because eventually we relocated from Highland, Pasadena to Koreatown, and that's a story by itself. I still remember it's 926 South Irolo [Street]. We moved there, I believe it was 1969, so '68 or '69, and it was the first home that we bought. It's actually a real estate that my parents bought and it was a nice, big home. Of course, it was a fixer-upper, but it was a nice, pretty sizeable home in the heart of K-town. The purchase price was $25,000, but of course my parents had no money for a down payment, but there was a real estate broker who was a Korean American gentleman, his name was George Chey. So Mr. Chey apparently loaned my parents the down-payment money and we bought the home and we paid back Mr. Chey and paid the mortgage. So it worked out. Mr. Chey eventually became a very prominent real estate person in L.A. He also is one of the founding members of Hanmi Bank. So there's some history there.
Cline
Wow. Yes, indeed.
Lim
So the few Koreans that were around, Korean Americans, whose immigration preceded ours were pretty well settled in into their own businesses, and some of them were very prominent real estate brokers, and they knew about getting the immigrants assimilated into this country because they were the ones that knew how to place to the kids in schools and get the utility bills paid and so forth.
Cline
This was one of my upcoming questions. How did people sort of learn the ropes? I know the church was frequently--
Lim
The church was very instrumental generally
Cline
But you're saying there are also these other--
Lim
Right, and there were these people who, I guess you would call them earlier immigrants that helped out the later immigrants, and to a large extent that practice is still prevalent today.
Cline
Where did you go to school during that brief period when you were over near Highland Park area?
Lim
I went to an elementary school called--I believe it's called Monte Vista Elementary School, for a short period of time. Then when our family moved to K-town, I went to Hobart Elementary School. So now I remember--I stand to correct myself on this--we must have bought the home on Irolo Street, the 926 Irolo Street, in '68, not '69, because I went to Hobart Elementary School.
Cline
So you were at the other one very briefly?
Lim
Yes.
Cline
How would you describe your first experience going to a school in Los Angeles, clearly not being fluent in the language yet, for one thing, and probably, I'm guessing, over in Highland Park not around too many other Koreans?
Lim
Yes, it was very different. The school in Highland Park, at the time it was just predominantly a white school, so I think I was the only other Asian kid in the entire school, or in my class, I should say. But when I relocated to Hobart, interestingly enough, I felt more at home. Most kids were minorities, blacks and Latin Americans.
Cline
How were you starting to deal with the language issue then?
Lim
Just by going to school and listening and learning words. I think at a young age it's much easier to pick up the language. So I don't recall making any special effort, but just over time. By the time I was in sixth grade I don't think I was having any difficulty communicating or understanding.
Cline
There were so ESL [English as a Second Language] classes or anything like that?
Lim
No, at the time there were no ESL programs.
Cline
I want to come back to the issue of food. Now you're here. What was it like encountering not only the challenge perhaps of maintaining the kind of food that you were used to eating in your family, but encountering what at that point we would probably call American food? How did that play out in your youth once you got here? What do you remember about that?
Lim
It was very easy for me because, again, I was young enough to adapt to, quote, unquote, "American food." So I remember, because my mom was a working mom and the school got off before my mom came home, you know, I guess nowadays you call that latchkey kids.
Cline
Right.
Lim
I remember going home and just cooking things for myself, and the easiest thing to cook was a hot dog. You put a wiener on the pan and you grill it a little bit and then you get a bun and you put the wiener between the bun and then you're set, right, with mustard. So a hot dog was sort of a quick fix. But we'd take jelly--what do they call it? Peanut butter, jelly sandwiches and what have you, but I remember doing a lot of preparation on my own, but they were all American food. They were easier. Korean food is much more difficult to make.
Cline
But were you still getting some Korean food made?
Lim
At home?
Cline
Yes.
Lim
When my mom came home, yes, sure, absolutely.
Cline
She was able to get the ingredients at that point?
Lim
Yes. By early, I would say, late sixties and early seventies, as soon after we immigrated, the Korean market started to pop up, which was a good indication that the population was getting stronger.
Cline
Right. Right, for sure. Now that you're going to school and encountering different kinds of children, different kinds of food, what do you remember about--I mean particularly I know you're young, but we're talking about the late sixties here. What do you remember about American culture or popular culture at that time, if you had any awareness of it at all, hearing music, the kind of clothes people were wearing, the kinds of things that people were interested in?
Lim
Oh, sure. Not so much when I was going to elementary school, but when I started attending middle school. By the way, I was bused for three years from the L.A. ghetto school to a suburb in a predominantly a white school called Walter Reed Junior High School in North Hollywood. It was part of the integration plan that L.A. Unified School District adopted, and that was some experience, but we can come back to that if you want to.
Cline
Yes, we'll get there.
Lim
But just to respond to your question, I was beginning to learn about what we call it as hippie culture, you know, jeans and white shirts and colorful things, headbands, and long hair. I got into Beatles and Rolling Stones. Like yourself, I got crazy in music and for a while I wanted to pursue that as a career. Thank God I didn't, because I didn't have the talent for it. [laughs]
Cline
Sometimes that doesn't matter so much.
Lim
So we used to play the Creedence Clearwater Revival music. I was the bass guitar player for many years, for many years.
Cline
So this was later, though, right?
Lim
Middle school and high school.
Cline
Not too much later. By now you have a TV. How's that working?
Lim
I think, yes, we must have gotten one of those old TVs that some family wanted to throw away; we probably took that.
Cline
What do you remember, if anything, about American television as a youth?
Lim
I remember two of my favorite shows were Twilight Zone and Father Knows Best. I don't know, that's really corny, now that I think about it, but at the time I enjoyed it, probably because I didn't have the opportunity to interact with my dad a whole lot, even when I came here, because he was always so busy, and just the notion of a family with father being the guidance and the supportive father that appeared on the TV was really appealing to me.
Cline
Yes. So the situation in your family now is really quite different. Your mother's gone a lot, your father's gone a lot. You described yourself as sort of a latchkey kid cooking hot dogs for yourself. What about your siblings and the whole dynamic now within the family? What was the feeling like within the family in this new situation, new location, new culture, and new family situation? How did it feel, do you remember?
Lim
My recollection of that is that they were all very studious, they worked hard. We all had some sort of a job to sort of pitch in in the family's financial endeavors. They were pretty hardworking. They were older, so I think they probably imposed a greater degree of responsibility for themselves than I did, even though I had some jobs here and there, too. I mean, I remember I delivered [Los Angeles] Herald Examiner papers when I was eleven years old, on a bicycle. My brother, I think he worked at a carwash and my sister had some other job, and my two sisters, they all had jobs. We were a working immigrant family.
Cline
Now, your brother came over a year after you all did and clearly was more, as you said, culturally Korean. What do you remember about what it was like for him coming over here and having to adjust to this situation? You said he was working in a carwash, for example, after being in this elite high school.
Lim
Right. Even with his high school degree, he went back to high school to, quote, unquote, "learn English," which I think was, looking back, was probably a mistake. He could have simply gone to a city college and transferred to a major university, because he's a very bright guy. But there was a mistaken notion that your English had to be near perfect to succeed in college, which is not true. Then after L.A. High School--he went to L.A. High School for, I think, a very short period of time, maybe a year or a half a year, he went off to a city college.
Cline
L.A. [Los Angeles] City College?
Lim
I think so. Yes. He actually enlisted thereafter and he went to the Vietnam War.
Cline
Well, again you walked right into my next question, which was about the Vietnam War.
Lim
Yes, he served the country as a U.S. solider, as an enlisted man. He came back and then he attended UCLA, graduated with an engineering degree.
Cline
So he actually saw action in Vietnam?
Lim
Yes, although I don't think he was one of those guys that were on the front line.
Cline
Since now I have a really direct context for it, I was going to ask what, if anything, was your memory of the Vietnam War and the atmosphere here relating to that, especially considering that, whether you were aware of it or not, there were certain kind of echoes, shall we say, reminiscent of the Korean situation.
Lim
It was a very difficult time within our family, because my mother was, obviously, very, very nervous day in and day out about my brother being in Vietnam in a very dangerous war situation. Myself, being a younger brother, I was fearful for him, but just going to school and you talk to friends and the information that you pick up, there was, as you know, a very strong antiwar sentiment at all school levels. I remember manifesting my protest by wearing these bands around my arm to school and being admonished by schoolteachers for that, even though I had my brother in the war, and maybe because he was in the war my protest was heightened. So for me personally, I was against the war, and even though the similarity with the Korean War was the Communism battle, the influence, is what we were fighting against, I was against the war in the sense that the war in Vietnam, as most people know it, is that we just didn't know who we were fighting against. The Korean War, although there was some degree of that, by and large, people were wearing uniforms, clearly showing which side you were on, but that was not the case in the Vietnam War.
Cline
What was your parents' point of view, and how much awareness or interest did they show in things like the American political or what contemporary issues here as they affected the U.S.?
Lim
I do know that my parents were in favor of defeating the Communist Party because they come from that background. They were very concerned about a nation in Asia being taken over by the Communists. But at the same time, I think they were very concerned about the way the war was going and how their son is over there and so forth. So I'm sure they had some mixed feelings about it, but there was very strong anti-Communism within them.
Cline
Were you concerned that you might eventually become drafted into the war?
Lim
I was, because I was told that I wasn't too far away. I remember when I was in high school, I was probably maybe only a year or a year and a half away, but, of course, the war ended right about that time, so it was before being declared for a draft.
Cline
We'll get more into your high school years and things, I guess, in the next session. We're kind of probably getting near the end of this session right now, but just to continue this a little bit now, when you were going to elementary school in the Koreatown area now, describe if you can--you said you felt more at home because it was more diverse racially and ethnically. Particularly among the Asian students present, what do you remember about the breakdown of the different nationalities representative, if any?
Lim
Just within the Asians?
Cline
Yes, particularly, and what the perception may have been by non-Asians as to what their idea was about these Asian students. I guess what I'm getting at is, what did they think you were and if they knew you were Korean, what, if anything, did they think that meant?
Lim
That's a tough one. You know, going to school at that time was just a matter of learning to deal with other ethnic groups, and I was probably quite consumed with figuring out how I can survive in that mode, because it was not a very safe environment. I mean, I remember getting into fights here and there just because you needed to put your foot down and say, "I'm not going to get pushed around." I obviously didn't speak the language very well. I was a little kid, so I was, I think, prone to be picked on by other kids. I remember having some physical confrontations with kids of non-Asian--they were minorities. But in terms of going back to the Asian kids, I think most of them were like Japanese American kids, from my recollection. There were a few Korean kids. But I didn't really have any particular Korean circle that I hung out with, because there was just insufficient number to even constitute that circle. But I do recall that the teachers were very, very supportive and they really went the extra mile to help the kids who had just recently immigrated, because they knew that we would have greater struggle in adjusting. But eventually I got quite comfortable at that school. By and large, I'd say I have fond memories of that school.
Cline
That's good. Behind my question was the fact that I hear frequently that people who were non-Asian frequently just called all the Asian kids Chinese, for example.
Lim
Oh yes.
Cline
What was your sense of their perception of who you were?
Lim
Well, I mean, I didn't have any confusion about my background, but the confusion about my ethnicity or my--there's no confusion about--I misspoke--about my original country where I originated from was more of an issue when I went to middle school than the elementary school, because the elementary school, Hobart Elementary School, it was really a melting-pot school and nobody really paid a whole lot of attention to that. If you weren't white, that's all that mattered. Interestingly, it was a school where the white kids actually got all the negative attention, if you will.
Cline
Interesting. So we'll get more into middle school and that situation and what it was like going to a mostly white school.
Cline
Did you have any sense when you--I assume you would explain that you were Korean, as to whether or not non-Koreans or non-Asians had any idea what that meant or where Korea was?
Lim
That was actually quite the case when I was in Highland Park in Pasadena. The kids in the neighborhood asked me, "Where are you from?" Because I obviously don't look white, and because I didn't speak the language, they asked me, "Where are you from?" I'd say to them, I would tell them I'm from Korea. And they'd say, "What?" Of course, it went on and on. The kids only knew of Japan and China. Korea was not on the map, as far as they were concerned. But of course their parents knew because of the Korean War. The kids in the neighborhood did not know.
Lim
Then they asked me how I came to the United States, and because I didn't know the word "airplane," I didn't know how to explain it to them. So I remember spreading my arms and telling them, "This is how I came." If I didn't make the engine sound, they probably thought I flew over here.
Cline
Interesting. What do you remember about your interaction with some of the other Asian American kids and what their perception of you might have been?
Lim
Obviously there was no interaction in Pasadena. There was interaction in the L.A. area, but I think they had a better understanding of--because they'd been more exposed to immigrants, they had a better understanding of my situation. So there was virtually no explaining that was necessary. They were, I think, a lot more receptive to the fact that I'm an immigrant. They were a bit more helpful, because maybe they relate to the fact that I am Asian.
Cline
Who, if any, were your friends in elementary school then?
Lim
I was friends with a different ethnic mix. I mean, I was not limited to Asian kids per se, just because I'm Korean American.
Cline
Did you then have them over for hot dogs?
Lim
Yes. I had Mexican friends and African American friends, some Asian friends, some Korean kids.
Cline
Coming from your situation in Korea, do you remember having any feelings about that, what that was like since it was so different from what you were used to up until then, this diversity of different people and how they look and what they're like, what their food is like, all that?
Lim
It's an interesting experience all the time, and I think that I embraced it. I liked the fact that I was experiencing different things and different people. Learning to eat taco was great. I still love tacos. Looking back, I think it just made me a stronger, better person, because I grew up in that neighborhood where it was a melting pot. I was more open to different things and I think I was able to tolerate difference better because of that experience, rather than growing up in a suburb where I did not have that experience.
Cline
What do you remember about starting to see--you mentioned a little bit already about starting to see more Korean immigrants and more Korean businesses starting to crop up in your area.
Lim
Yes, in the seventies, definitely.
Cline
Well, I guess we should probably wait until next time to talk about that. We'll get fully into the seventies, you'll be being bused out to North Hollywood and simultaneously more Koreans are coming into your neighborhood.
Lim
Right.
Cline
Does that seem like a good place to end it, then?
Lim
Sure.
Cline
Okay. Because you have a lunch date and everything is looking good, I thank you very much for talking to me this morning.
Lim
My pleasure. [End of session one]

1.2. Session 2 (January 17, 2008)

Cline
This is Alex Cline interviewing John Lim. Today is January 17, 2008. Happy New Year.
Lim
Happy New Year.
Cline
This is our second session here at Mr. Lim's office in downtown Los Angeles. Good morning.
Lim
Yes, good morning.
Cline
It's been a while since our first session. We got into your immigration; we heard about your life as a youngster in Korea; coming to Los Angeles; your elementary school days; and your schooling; your adjusting to the neighborhood actually in Koreatown. I have a couple of follow-up questions I wanted to ask that relate to issues we discussed in that session before we head into your teen years and your early adulthood. One was, you mentioned that your brother enlisted in the United States Army.
Lim
Correct.
Cline
Do you know why he chose to do that?
Lim
At the time I believe we had the draft system.
Cline
Yes, we did, and he wanted to get ahead of it?
Lim
Correct.
Cline
What was your parents' feeling about that choice?
Lim
My recollection is that my mother was very apprehensive. My father [Dong Sun Lim], who, himself, does have a military background, I think he had mixed feelings about it. He thought it would be a good experience for him, but of course safety was a big concern on his part. But, really, my appreciation of their thinking process, I believe, was quite limited at that time, given my age.
Cline
You mentioned that there was a bit of a different point of view between you and your parents, perhaps, regarding the Vietnam War at that point, and I wanted to know--well, actually, before we get into this question, as this kind of gets back into the teen years, growing up in the neighborhood that you did, you mentioned that it was diverse, you mentioned, of course, in those days it was probably not considered the best neighborhood in Los Angeles. How much concern do you think your parents had for your safety just growing up in that area, walking to school and back, all that sort of thing?
Lim
If they had any concern, they certainly didn't express it.
Cline
You were kind of just left on your--
Lim
On my mine.
Cline
That was pretty common. There's so much concern about that these days, and there was relatively less, I think, in those days.
Lim
Well, my parents were immigrants; they were struggling to make a living. I don't think they had the luxury to really express a whole lot of concerns about the safety of their kids going back and forth from school.
Cline
Interesting. Now, remind us which junior high school you went to.
Lim
I attended Walter Reed Junior High School. It's out in North Hollywood.
Cline
Oh, that's right. Okay. I remember.
Lim
I think we had covered this briefly before.
Cline
Yes.
Lim
I was one of the first students to have been bused from the inner city--some might call it a ghetto city--out to North Hollywood. At the time, North Hollywood was a real nice suburban, middle-class neighborhood, predominantly white.
Cline
Largely white.
Lim
Not anymore, but it was. This is, what, 1969.
Cline
Yes, right. Let's get into that experience a little bit. Describe, if you will, your feelings about having to get on the bus and go out to school and back every day in a strange neighborhood.
Lim
Yes. First of all, you got less sleep because there was travel time involved, and you know how kids are about having to get up early in the morning and cutting short on their sleep time. I was no exception. I hated getting up earlier than other kids. I hated having to ride the bus for, I don't know, it seemed like forever back then, but I assume it was like a twenty-, thirty-minute ride. So that was not a welcomed experience, but I just basically took it in stride and thought that it was something that I had to do. That was not so much the negative, although clearly it's something worth noting. The real negative was being put into an environment that was very different from where I had come from. The first shocker was from Korea to the United States. Another shocker was from going from a very diverse minority-dominated neighborhood to very much of a white neighborhood.
Lim
I remember, I think there were like two buses that took us there, and I remember the bus stopping in front of the school and people would just all kind of stare at us getting off the bus. Off the bus, they were like, you know, the African Americans, the Latin Americans, and a few Asian Americans getting off the bus, and all these moms just giving us what I perceived back then as not such a welcoming expression on their face. Of course, the kids were no more friendlier either. It was an adjustment process. There was a lot of name-calling and posturing, but eventually I think it worked out, because the school, especially the P.E. [Physical Education] department, embraced the athletic talents of the kids that were being bused.
Cline
And that's still the case oftentimes. So do you remember how many of your friends from your elementary school were bused with you?
Lim
I don't remember the number, but there was a good number of us, yes.
Cline
And you were able to kind of share the experience?
Lim
My sister was also bused with me. Debbie's her name. She's also a lawyer now. By the way, she went to UCLA, undergrad. She was bused with me for the duration of her middle school years.
Cline
So did that help?
Lim
I think so in a way for probably both ways. There was maybe some comfort in knowing that your sibling's in the same pool.
Cline
I would think. So when you said there was name-calling, do you remember what form that took, the kinds of things kids would say?
Lim
[laughs] Yes, somewhat, vaguely. I'm not sure if I would recall all the name-callings, but it was very racist name-calling. "Chinaman." "Hey, Jap." Of course, I'm neither Chinese nor Japanese, but that doesn't matter, as far as they were concerned. I remember going into the cafeteria and they would just make funny comments like, "Hey, rice. It's rice today, you'll be happy," or something like that. But a lot of that went on largely because the kids were immature. Now that I think back, their parents weren't sophisticated enough--I don't know if that's the right way to put it--to properly educate their kids at home. But, you know, kids are kids, so even if they were educated, they could say and do what they want to do.
Cline
What, other than--well, let's just put it this way, what do you remember about that school experience that was maybe positive? Did you have any memorable teachers or anything that stood out as being good?
Lim
By and large, one thing that was very positive, I think, was because I was put in an environment where I had to deal with people that are very new to me, people that I have not had much experience in dealing with and understanding, or better understanding how to interact the majority, mainly the whites, Caucasians, I think that was sort of an educational experience that I got, even though it's not something that was taught in the classroom. I think that was very valuable, because later on in my life I think I found myself always being comfortable around what we call mainstream folks.
Cline
The dominant culture.
Lim
Right, and that's because I was exposed to it at the early age. Really, other than that, I don't think that I particularly enjoyed, to be honest, Walter Reed Middle School.
Cline
Right. Yes, and it's a hard time for everybody, anyway.
Lim
Yes. My son [Jonathan Lim], who's now almost twenty-four, he was actually accepted to the Highly Gifted Program at Walter Reed School. Apparently, there's some federal program for what they call, like, very advanced level of education for middle school kids and it's very hard to get in, apparently. I'm not sure, really. But anyway, he got in, and I had such negative experience from the school, I think it actually factored in in my vote against him going there. So eventually he didn't go.
Cline
Wow. What were your interests at this point, other than just getting through the day? Were you developing particular interests? 1969 was certainly quite a turbulent time culturally in this country and there was a lot going on, but what interests did you have at that point?
Lim
My interest was mostly in music--guitar, bass guitar. I played the trumpet in the school band. I played some sports, but I was really not good at it. I was a smaller kid, smaller, slower Asian kid.
Cline
The whole physical education experience when you got to junior high is also quite shocking, anyway.
Cline
How much of what we could think of as sort of the counterculture at that time did you start to pick up on during this time? You said you were into playing guitar and bass guitar, I presume, and we know that that was rock-and-roll in those days. How much of that culture started to interest you around this time and how much awareness did you have of what we might call hippie culture now?
Lim
Thinking back, I think it was just a way to escape from the academic pressure that I was under, because a lot of the immigrant parents really put a lot of pressure on their kids to excel at school.
Cline
You walked right into my next question.
Lim
Really, that's generally well received by the Asian kids, because I think Asian students, not all of them, but many of them are very eager to please their parents. I don't know if that's a culture thing or not. For me, it was something that I just didn't want to do just because my parents wanted me to do it. I knew eventually that I would have to study, because just looking at my parents and their parents and the parents of those parents, I didn't think that I had much of a chance being a basketball player or a rock-and-roll star. Deep down inside I knew that eventually I would end up in the academic arena, because my father's a scholar, my mom is very well educated, and I know from just going up the chain that most people are very academically successful. I just didn't want to do it at that time. I guess those were the days where you're supposed to have fun and I didn't like the idea of just hitting the books all the time. I mean, I'd just go to school to take the test, but I wasn't really much interested in schoolwork.
Lim
So we set up a garage and played music and we just loved copying Creedence Clearwater Revival and the Beatles. I was just listening to them. We didn't have money to buy the music piece, so we'd just kind of listen to the music and sort of replicate the sound as much as we could. Well, you know how that feels.
Cline
Sure. Who did you do this with or who were the members of the band? Neighborhood--
Lim
Yes, neighborhood friends. Actually, they were all Korean American kids.
Cline
Interesting. What did your folks think of that?
Lim
I think that they were concerned that this was going to take me further away from school, but my father had the wisdom to let me figure that out on my own.
Cline
That's pretty remarkable. People now forget that it wasn't really considered a desirable thing to start playing in a rock-and-roll band as a youngster.
Lim
Especially if you come from the Korean culture, because in Korea, back then, people from the music industry were looked down upon. Not anymore. Now they're gods, almost.
Cline
Right, especially in Japan, I guess, right? A lot of Korean--
Lim
Japan and Korea. Korea, actually the Korean music industry, from what I hear, is the leader among the Asian entertainers.
Cline
Oh yes, because I know Korean singers are huge in Japan, for example.
Lim
It's huge in Japan and all the Far East countries, as well.
Cline
Interesting. But of course the music business changed a lot here, too, it became encouraged, I think, by parents to have their kids take up.
Lim
Sure. Now they pay for these vocal lessons at age twelve.
Cline
Yes.
Lim
Which was unheard of when I was growing up.
Cline
Yes, it's very different now.
Cline
So you mentioned that in elementary school a lot of your friends were of different racial and ethnic communities. Did this continue when you were in junior high school? Obviously, the people you were in school with, most of them didn't live anywhere near you, but did you make friends with any people from that community out in North Hollywood?
Lim
I think I had three different groups of friends; friends that I have at the middle school, the suburb in the white neighborhood during the weekdays, friends that I had on Saturdays when we'd go out and play basketball, very mixed, I'd say probably more African Americans than any other group, and the friends I have on Sundays, which are the church friends and Korean kids, you know, Korean American friends.
Cline
Interesting. As you started to grow older, and it sounds like you're headed into an unavoidably decidedly more American cultural direction, how did your relationship with your parents develop, change, or how would you characterize it, say, as you're heading into the high school years, and clearly more of an American?
Lim
I think the economic hardship continued through high school. The immigrant parents got a bit better off, but they certainly didn't become wealthy. So they were pretty much preoccupied with what they had to, especially my father being so devoted to the church. So I'm not sure if there was much of a change in that respect. But what should be noted here is that all of the kids in our family, my siblings and I, worked throughout middle school and high school to make an economic contribution to our family well-being.
Cline
What kind of jobs did you do?
Lim
Oh, all sorts of jobs. One of my earlier jobs was--I think I might have mentioned this before--delivering the paper, the [Los Angeles] Herald-Examiner. After that, a whole slew of different kinds of jobs, delivery of advertisements to individual homes; to working at a gas station; market; a cleaning person, janitorial service; working at a fast-food restaurant, Der Wienerschnitzel. The best I had, the cushiest job, was being a tutor, which I landed when I got to college, but throughout high school it was more the--
Cline
The service industry, as they say.
Lim
Right. Labor. Hard labor.
Cline
And you would do this when, then, in your schedule while you were going to school?
Lim
Well, it would be after school, weekends. The fast-food jobs were on weekends. In high school I did the night work at Wienerschnitzel, and during the summer as full-time. But during school, school months, it would have mostly part-time or even less than part-time.
Cline
What were your feelings about having to work some of those jobs?
Lim
I don't know. I just probably thought that I didn't have much of a choice. One experience that really stands out is one summer I worked at this assembly line of an air brake company, and so I stood in line to put brake parts together for trucks. I forget where it was, but I did that the whole summer and it was a night job. So I would go to school in the morning and then in the afternoon I would take some break and then go to work at night. I don't know why, but they didn't--it might have been because I didn't feel that the glove really provided enough friction to do the work efficiently, but I remember feeling like my hands were all torn with a lot of cuts and bled a lot.
Lim
So to go back to your question, I think at that time I was very young and I said to myself, "Now, why do I have to do this at this young age? It's hard work." But looking back, I think all that work really made me appreciate all the other things in life and made me work hard. I think it molded good work ethics.
Cline
Yes, I would think it would give you an appreciation, if not compassion, for people who work in that area.
Lim
Oh, absolutely.
Cline
What about your siblings? What kind of jobs were they doing?
Lim
Oh, car wash, donut shops, restaurants, a whole range of blue-collar work.
Cline
How were the English skills at this stage, now that you're a teenager and working?
Lim
My English skills?
Cline
Yes.
Lim
Probably better than the more recent immigrants, but not as good as somebody who spoke it as a native language.
Cline
But clearly, I mean, working at, say, for example, a fast-food restaurant I'd think you'd need to have passable language skills, depending on what you're doing.
Lim
Yes, but you don't need to speak a whole lot of words. You know, "french fries," big one," "small one."
Cline
Where were some of these places, like the Der Wienerschnitzel? Was it in your neighborhood?
Lim
The Wienerschnitzel was on Crenshaw Boulevard between Exposition [Boulevard] and what used to be called the Santa Barbara [Avenue] Boulevard, but it's now ML King [Martin Luther King Jr. Boulevard] Boulevard.
Cline
So in an African American neighborhood.
Lim
Yes, that was predominantly a Japanese American neighborhood back then.
Cline
Interesting. The other inevitable question that comes up when you head into your teen years: girls. Where was that going for you at that point? Were you interested? Were starting to meet the opposite sex and move in that direction, or was still something that was not encouraged or you didn't have time for?
Lim
You mean by my parents?
Cline
Well, yes.
Lim
You have to understand, this is in an era where I didn't care what my parents thought. [laughs]
Cline
Okay. I wasn't sure where the line was.
Lim
So whether they encouraged it or not, obviously, the cultural setting for them, I don't think would have my parents encouraging me in that respect, because to them it was all about school, school, school, study, study, study. But, yes, my general feeling on that was that that was the best part about being a teenager. Wasn't it for you, Alex?
Cline
Oh, it was pretty agonizing for me. [laughs]
Lim
I think that was a lot of fun, You know, girls everywhere. It was a situation where you had to sort of balance your girl interests with the other stuff, the responsibilities that you have, right?
Cline
Right. What position did your parents have regarding this sort of thing that would have been sort of informing your, perhaps in this case, rebelliousness? Were they the type of parents who you felt were really going to want to have a lot of involvement in your evitable nuptials, or is it going to be a very traditional sort of approach, or were they more liberal and maybe more--
Lim
I think they were far more liberal than most Korean parents, but even then, that was more conservative than the value systems of, let's say, the white family.
Cline
So where did you go to high school?
Lim
I went to Fairfax High School.
Cline
And it was a very happening and desirable school to go to.
Lim
In what respect?
Cline
Well, it was considered one of the better high schools in L.A., I think.
Lim
Oh yes, no question about that, and that's why I'm not sure if it was so desirable. [laughs] All the kids that went to that school were very smart. That's not necessarily a good thing.
Cline
Yes. It was in a totally different kind of community.
Lim
Could be a confidence killer if you're not up for it.
Cline
Well, let's talk about this. What was high school like for you after being bused out to the Valley? Fairfax High is yet another very different sort of a demographic area, and as we said, was considered one of the better schools. Evidently, it sounds like it was pretty competitive.
Lim
Oh yes, it was a very academically intense school. Most kids were very studious there. There was just a small minority of kids who wanted to play, like me. So I was, again, a minority not only ethnically, but just the way that I wanted to go about my high school days.
Cline
How many people then from your neighborhood were going to Fairfax High? Because it seems like-or did you get into Fairfax through some kind of different connection? Was that the high school you would have normally been--
Lim
No, I was outside of the district. I took Latin, and at the time if you took a particular subject that was not offered by the high school that you would have attended within the district that you lived in, you had a special permit to attend the school outside of your district. Frankly, I don't remember why I took Latin. It might have been something in the back of my mind said, some day when I go to law school, maybe knowing some Latin would help, and that might have sort of prompted me to do that. But in any event, I took Latin and I ended up at Fairfax High School. Also my siblings, my older sister, Debbie, attended at the time Fairfax High School.
Cline
Where would you have gone otherwise?
Lim
L.A. [Los Angeles] High School.
Cline
Yes, that was a common preference, people trying to not go to L.A. High and trying to go north to Fairfax.
Lim
Well, L.A. High at one time was a very, very good school.
Cline
Well, this would have been around the time that it was damaged by the Sylmar earthquake, too, and they built a whole new school. That was '71?
Lim
Yes, '71. No, I went to high school in '72, so right around that time, yes.
Cline
So it was condemned.
Lim
Right.
Cline
Like some of the buildings at my high school.
Lim
Where did you go? Which high school did you go?
Cline
Uni [University] High School.
Lim
Uni High School.
Cline
Yes, we had the auditorium and the gym were both condemned, but they were still using the gym, which wasn't a very comforting thought. But L.A. High and Uni High were the two oldest high schools in L.A., so I guess that figures.
Cline
What were your friends like now at Fairfax? Did you make friends outside your general community and did your friends become even more diverse, perhaps?
Lim
Actually, yes, Fairfax High School had more ethnic minorities than Walter Reed. The school was predominantly Jewish American. I can't put a percentage on it, but it was a huge percentage, and the non-Jewish Americans were comprised of Asians and blacks and Latin Americans. So there were a good number of Korean American kids there. They were all smart. They're all the ones that ended up going to M.I.T. [Massachusetts Institute of Technology] and Harvard [University].
Cline
Right. Did you have any memorable teachers or experiences while at Fairfax that stand out?
Lim
Well, I can think of a couple of them. I'm not sure if "memorable" is the right way to put it. I really enjoyed my geometry class, which really came to me as a surprise, because I didn't really like math. I always thought that I really wouldn't enjoy math, but there was a teacher named Mr. Roach, and he presented the concepts of geometry, I think in a way that I embraced easily. So I remember excelling geometry and getting a good grade in that class, and thinking to myself, "Now, how in the world did I get an A in this math class?" That was interesting, because I never studied. I wasn't the type of kid that did all the homework or go to all the classes. I was pretty well known for ditching school. [mutual laughter]
Cline
What were you doing when you ditched school?
Lim
Largely just going to the beach and reading different kinds of books that I enjoyed reading, not the ones that were prescribed by high school, and sometimes going to check out girls in different high schools.
Cline
Okay. Now, you were interested. Now, were these girls also of a diverse makeup or did you sort of keep it within your community?
Lim
I think by high school I was more interested in dating Asian American girls, to be honest.
Cline
Where were the high schools you were investigating?
Lim
That's a good way to put it. The subject of the investigations were Hollywood High [School], L.A. High. I think it went as far as Marshall High [School] a couple times, on Belmont [Avenue].
Cline
This actually relates to one of my questions here, which is by now it sounds like you're driving. Are you driving by now?
Lim
Yes.
Cline
What do you remember about parts of the city or parts of the area that you were interested in frequently or spending time, or what you considered fun or interesting? You mentioned other high schools and the beach. Where did you like to go and how much of the city were you seeing at this point outside your neighborhood?
Lim
Well, when it came to going to beach, it was mostly Venice Beach and sometimes Malibu, but that would be a far drive. You know, fortunately, gas wasn't that expensive back then.
Cline
It was before the Energy Crisis.
Lim
Right, right before.
Cline
Yes.
Lim
In terms of just going to other schools, it was just driving over there and mostly during lunchtime or recess time and hanging out with them. Many of the kids actually came to K-Town. There was a burger joint on Vermont [Avenue] and Olympic [Boulevard]. I think it was called the American Eagle, but I can't really be sure. That's where a lot of the high school, Korean American high school kids, hung out, eating junk food.
Cline
Yes, American junk food.
Lim
Yes.
Cline
Once again, you walked into my next question. This is where I was going with this, which is by this time what do you remember about where Koreatown was headed and how it had developed and the changes you were seeing in your neighborhood, what kind of businesses and changes you were seeing coming up?
Lim
Well, there was clearly a huge influx of the immigrants in the seventies. During the sixties, not many Korean Americans in L.A., even though it had more Korean Americans than any other city in the country. In the seventies you see a lot of businesses popping up, a lot of restaurants popping up, grocery markets, dental offices, etc. So I think the notion of Koreatown is truly becoming real in the seventies.
Cline
You mentioned some of these, the types of businesses. Now that you're a teenager, other than fast food, what do you remember about places that might be kind of more fun to hang out? Especially nightlife, that kind of thing, was that coming in yet, or was that a little later?
Lim
No, no, we didn't have much of a nightlife in high school.
Cline
Okay. At this point we've talked a little bit about things like food, and you mentioned American junk food just a minute ago. Were you pretty much given over to that kind of cuisine at this point, or were you still eating some Korean food?
Lim
We were doing both.
Cline
Because I remember you were cooking for yourself a lot of the time, as I recall, when you were younger, hot dogs and stuff. But when there were more Korean restaurants coming in, how much interest did you have in that at this point?
Lim
I think it was a function of how much money you had in your pocket. The less money you had, the more likely that you would go to an American fast food restaurant, McDonald's, things of that sort. But if the friends were in a serious mood for celebration, we would go to a Korean sit-down restaurant and pay a few bucks more. Most kids, I think, had strong preference for the traditional Korean food. It was just that it was not easy to afford that.
Cline
We've got teenagers congregating. It's now the early seventies. How much contact did you have at this time with the drug culture? Was that around much or not?
Lim
Well, not within my circle. I knew that that was going on with certain other kids.
Cline
At your high school?
Lim
Right. My circle was more into just smoking and drinking beer if they can get a hold of one. We were all under age, so we couldn't buy it. There was a significant amount of flexing your muscle and being [unclear] to impress the girl you want to get, that type of thing, but not much drug in my circle.
Cline
Interesting. How about your siblings at this point? Is their experience somewhat parallel to yours or is there anything significantly different?
Lim
I think pretty different, because they were all very good kids.
Cline
I see. Following the program more?
Lim
Yes, they were studious and they didn't disappoint my parents. All of them went to UCLA and pursued their education and they all did all right. I was the black sheep, if you will.
Cline
Yes. Wow. When things started to get toward the end of the line at high school and questions start to come up about "What you want to do? Where you want to go? You want to go to college? If so, where? What line of work do you imagine yourself going into?" where were you on all those issues?
Lim
Going to college was never a question. I mean, I grew up in an environment, even though I was doing a bunch of crazy things, I knew that it was expected of me to go to college, and more importantly, I knew that it would be good for me to go to college. I mean, I wasn't the kind of guy who was going to go just because my parents told me to go. It was just a matter of wanting to have fun and enjoy your middle school and high school days, and then I just thought that once I get to college, I'll shape up, and that was sort of always in the back of my mind.
Cline
Interesting. So what did you decide to do?
Lim
Well, I thought that eventually I would go to law school. That was always in the back of my head, because my mom told me when I was a kid that she thought that I would make a great lawyer. Now, why did she say that, I have no idea, but she always remarked that I had the uncanny ability to reason things and put the other person in a defeat position. In her view, being a lawyer was all about adversary proceeding, which it is not. Now I don't do any of that stuff. I'm not a litigator. I'm more a consensus builder by doing transaction work. But in any event, at the time she thought that because of that ability, at least the perceived ability as I had, that I would make a good lawyer. I must have bought into that, I don't know.
Lim
So I went to Cal[ifornia] State [University] Northridge, which is the only school I applied. It's very near home. I wanted to study business. I knew that it had a good business program, so I went there and eventually majored in accounting, and I got a degree in accounting, not intending to be a CPA, but I thought a degree in accounting would go a long way in many different respects, and it is turning out that way. It's a great degree to have because you understand how businesses work.
Cline
You were already somewhat acclimatized to the culture of the San Fernando Valley at the time, so I presume you were commuting then to college.
Lim
Well, I wasn't, actually. I lived in the dorm for a couple of years and I had lived in an apartment with friends of mine.
Cline
In the [San Fernando] Valley?
Lim
Yes. It was hard to commute. I mean, yes, it's only twenty-five miles away, but it was just very hard to commute every day from L.A. to the Valley. But it was close enough that I could just come home at will. That was the beauty of going to that school.
Cline
How was it for you being on your own out there in the Valley at that point?
Lim
It was a lot of growing-up time and I think I started to finally do the things that I said I would do eventually, which is to focus on schoolwork, which was totally a new experience for me, because I never did that before.
Cline
Wow. Where were you at, at this point? Considering you're sort of painting a certain picture here, I'm curious to know where you're at with the religious aspect of your family life. Are you still going to church? Where do you stand with regard to that?
Lim
By and large, I was going to church, but I had a period of time where I was raising a lot more questions than before. One of the beauties of going to college is to learn how to think and to raise questions and to challenge your traditional beliefs and values. So, yes, I went through that process and it was good, that was very healthy, I think, to get rid of a lot of misconceptions.
Cline
Do you have any sense of what your father's feeling was at this point when you're kind of--first, you described yourself as the black sheep of the family and now you're kind of buckling down to beginning to question some things.
Lim
Yes, my father is an amazing man in that he always would say that "I have total faith in you, I trust you, and I know that you're going to be very well, you're going to be doing very well. Just a matter of time." So he wasn't the kind of father who, you know, was all over your back and lecturing to me, "Are you reading the Bible? Are you going to church?" No, he was not that kind of father at all.
Cline
That's really quite remarkable.
Cline
Now that you're moving into your twenties, were there any rumblings about where you were going to be headed in terms of marriage and all that sort of thing, family life? Any concerns coming from your parents on that end?
Lim
I don't think my parents worried that much about my finding a girl to marry. It was more of a question of when, because they knew that I was fully capable of doing that.
Cline
So they weren't looking for you or anything like that?
Lim
I'm sure they would have loved to have had the opportunity to do that, but they were not.
Cline
What about with your siblings? Was it different with them or not?
Lim
Not terribly different. My brother [Peter Lim] got married when he was twenty-five, and so did I, by the way. So we all got married very early.
Cline
Well, that wouldn't be considered early for someone from Korea, would it?
Lim
No. No, I'm not sure if that was a thing of somebody from Korea or not. I think it was at that era, that time, a lot of people did get married in their twenties. Nowadays, people get married in their thirties and forties.
Cline
Yes. So when you lived in, you said in an apartment in the Valley, did you have roommates, or are you on your own?
Lim
Yes, I had roommates. I had roommates when I was at the dorm. I had roommates when I was at the apartment.
Cline
What was that like for you? What kind of folks were they?
Lim
My roommate at the dorm was a Caucasian guy, and I didn't notice until years later, but I think he was doing a lot of drugs, because he rarely went to school. [mutual laughter] Basically, he had the lifestyle that I had when I was in middle school and high school. So I'm not sure if he ever really finished school.
Cline
That's kind of more typical for college for a lot of people, they get away from home.
Lim
Yes, he came to college to party, whereas I already partied through high school and I went to college to study. So there was a big difference. Then later on when I had roommates, the roommates were my Korean American friends from high school.
Cline
At this point, through high school and into college, what was your perception of what some of the dominant culture's awareness was of your nationality being Korean? Did people now have a sense of what that meant, or did you have a sense that--I mean, for example, obviously in junior high people are calling you Chinaman and Jap. What was your sense of what being Korean meant to people around you at this point?
Lim
Well, I think there was no question that everyone knew what I was made of. Yes, I probably behaved in a way that appeared as having assimilated better to the mainstream culture, and I did, in fact. But being a Korean American was, by that time, not such a terrible thing, not such an embarrassing thing anymore. I think many people regarded that aspect of me as somebody who was driven, motivated, strong work ethics, and possibly even have additional language skill, i.e., speak Korean. So I think there were more--I was beginning to sense that there were more positive attributes by the time I was in college. You know, I did not take a job at an accounting firm after graduation, but I worked at different places when I was in college, tutoring and part-time in an accounting firm, and I almost got the sense that the presumptions that were made were in favor of me because I am a Korean American. By that time the generally--no, I misspoke. The prevailing belief among the mainstream about the Korean Americans were, I think, by and large, positive.
Cline
What about for yourself? At this point did you have a sense of your feelings of your identity were about and what it meant to you to be Korean American at that point?
Lim
I didn't think of it in any particular way other than to think that, yes, I have this unique background and I could use it as an advantage. I've retained the Korean language skill to a large extent, for which I'm immensely thankful. I understand cultures outside of the American culture, which even if you don't understand all the other cultures, but just the knowledge that you have about the existence of culture outside of the American mainstream culture, I think sort of broadens your horizons and just makes you a better person, I think. That's the advantage that I think Europeans have over Americans.
Cline
One of the reasons I ask this, sometimes when people get to college, there tends to become through their education more of an awareness of what we could generally refer to as ethnic studies and talk of racial identity and all that kind of thing, and that changes some people.
Lim
That may be, but I had that since I was ten years old. I mean, I wasn't going to get awakened by it suddenly when I got to college. I mean, I think it was the other way for me. That might be the case for many other people, but for me the awareness was heightened when I was much younger. So by the time I got to college, I was all about how do I fit in, how do I assimilate, how do I become a part of this mainstream, which, in fact, is not just a white culture anymore.
Cline
Yes, that's right. And you're still spending time in Koreatown and with your Korean friends?
Lim
Sure. Sure.
Cline
What were you doing in Koreatown? What was happening? What were you starting to see by the time you're now--you said you were doing some work after getting your degree in accounting. Are you entering the workforce on some level? Like who were you friends and things at that point, too?
Lim
Well, my friends were other college students from, largely from UCLA and some from 'SC [University of Southern California], Northridge, you know, college friends. We'd go to these parties that are hosted by different college groups, Korean American groups, and this is where you get an opportunity to meet potential dates within the same ethnic group. But I don't think any of us going to these parties thought of them as sort of exclusive, racially motivated functions, but it just kind of went that way, because I think that the immigrants probably felt that a fellow Korean American would understand their predicament and challenges better and there was sort of an underlying faith that the emotional connection would be facilitated by that background.
Cline
How did you meet your wife then at twenty-five?
Lim
I met my wife at Northridge. She was an engineering student there and she's Korean American. I know you haven't asked, but I assume that that was going to be a question. She came at a much later age than me, so she had a greater language challenge.
Cline
I was just about to ask that.
Lim
Because she had a lot of strength in science and math, then she was able to do well in engineering.
Cline
So how long were you seeing each other before you got married then?
Lim
Too long. [mutual laughter] Two years in college and then three years of this, what, well, they call it long-distance relationship, because I was in San Francisco in law school.
Cline
Okay. Yes, we haven't got into that chapter then, I guess.
Lim
So, five years total.
Cline
Wow. So what brought you up to San Francisco then?
Lim
Oh, I went to law school there.
Cline
Okay. What made you decide to finally just, "Okay. Now I'm going to study law"? What happened?
Lim
Well, I got much more serious about school once I got to college, as I told you earlier, and then as I was thinking about applying to law school, you know, with all the movies that you see, like Paper Chase, there's just this fear about getting killed at a law school. I knew I needed to buckle down even more and become a lot more serious about school. So at the time I just felt that it would be very difficult to do that in Los Angeles because of all the friends and temptations in Los Angeles. I wanted to actually go to [University of California] Berkeley and I didn't get in, so I ended up at UC [University of California] San Francisco.
Cline
What was that like for you to now, for the first time since arriving here, relocate to another city?
Lim
Oh, in San Francisco?
Cline
Yes.
Lim
It's a very different city, as you know. Initially I thought it was just too dirty and too dangerous, but after I got settled in, maybe, I would say maybe three, four months later, I realized that this is a very safe city and it's a beautiful city. I realized that San Francisco is a city that is rich with diversity and culture. I still love that city. You can leave your apartment and just walk maybe at most two miles and virtually get everything you need.
Cline
Right. A real city.
Lim
A real city. And public transportation is wonderful there.
Cline
How much of a Korean population did you notice once you got up there?
Lim
Well, my dad introduced me to this person who's a friend of my father, who lived in the city, and he took me to his church one Sunday, and then through that I met a lot of people and I realized that, yes, there's a healthy number of Korean constituent there. But obviously compared to L.A. it's just a fraction.
Cline
How did you manage to weather the long-distance relationship experience?
Lim
A lot of effort on my part. [laughs] You didn't have e-mails back then. It was letter writing and phone calls.
Cline
Right, high phone bills.
Lim
And phone calls were very expensive. So it was usually a lot of letters.
Cline
So what was the law school experience then like for you, after seeing these kind of horrifying movies?
Lim
Yes, the first semester was intimidating and I think they sort of do that by design. They just kind of want to make it as scary as possible so that the weak would drop out. I don't know, I'm just saying that, but it was a very intimidating experience the first semester, but I think after that I got settled in and it was fine. I really like the Socratic method of teaching. I'm a big fan of that. I think I've always liked it, because even when I was in high school and in middle school, I was all about questioning the reasoning that people would articulate for their position. That was always amazing to me. So in a way, law school, Socratic method of teaching kind of suited me very well. Maybe I was meant to go to law school.
Cline
Your mom was right. What were your parents' feeling about you going off to San Francisco for law school?
Lim
I don't think they had any real concern. By that time I think I've demonstrated to them that I was finally mature enough to take care of myself.
Cline
What about the finances at that point? How was that being worked out?
Lim
Well, throughout college and law school I was largely on my own. My parents were not in a position to lend any economic aid. Fortunately, we had Jimmy Carter at that time in college as the president, and then I think Ronald [W.] Reagan became president in 1980, but the system was already in place before Ronald Reagan came into the picture, to really provide significant, meaningful financial assistance to students. So I think I'm a great beneficiary of the programs that were promulgated by the Democrats in the seventies.
Lim
For example, we had these loan programs where the interest rate, I think, was 3 percent, and you didn't have to pay any of that principal or interest until you graduated from school altogether. So in other words, if you proceeded to go to grad school, that got further deferred. So it was grants, some scholarships, some loans. It's a great country.
Cline
Or was.
Lim
Or was.
Cline
How did you go about selecting the particular area of law that you wanted to concentrate on?
Lim
Well, when I was in law school, I thought about going into a field that would maximize the utility value that I thought I had in me, in being able to speak Korean and the business background that I had from graduate school. So basically I wanted to get into business law, which I did. Then in the course of learning the various different aspects of business law, I just enjoyed real estate transactions and finance, so I ended up doing a lot of that. So to this day, I mean, that's my forte, real estate work. But being in a smaller firm now as opposed to a large firm that I used to work at when I was a young associate, I'm forced to deal with a lot of general business questions that might be outside of my area of expertise. So after having done that for many years, now all the other general--not all of them, but many of the general business matters become more familiar to me.
Cline
So when you finished law school, you came back to L.A.--
Lim
I did.
Cline
--where your then girlfriend--and what happened at that point? I mean, you got married, it sounds like.
Lim
I came back, studied for the bar exam, took the bar exam in July, and then we got married in October.
Cline
And you passed it the first time?
Lim
Yes, I did.
Cline
Had to ask.
Lim
I guess I got lucky.
Cline
What did you have in the way of goals or aspirations in terms of starting a family and that sort of thing? Was that interesting to you, or did you have other interests at that point?
Lim
Oh yes, I've always loved kids. I come from a family of four kids. I thought it was great, you know. Wish I had more siblings. So I wanted a lot of kids. My wife came from a smaller family and she didn't really like the idea of kids running around the house. So anyway, we eventually compromised and ended up with three kids.
Cline
After all, she is the one who has to give birth to them, as well.
Lim
Yes. I was looking for an alternative, but I couldn't find one.
Cline
Where did you ultimately settle in terms of employment, and also where you settled in terms of your home life in L.A.?
Lim
Well, my wife had already been working here at an engineering firm, I think it was ITT, and subsequently she worked at Westinghouse. So she was working primarily on the Westside and I was working in downtown Los Angeles. So we settled in--initially we lived in the Fairfax area close to where I went to high school, and then we managed to save some money and we bought a home in Hancock Park and lived there for a long time--twelve years.
Cline
What, upon returning to L.A. and settling here and getting your family going, do you remember about how Koreatown was developing at that point? What year are we talking about now, in fact?
Lim
We would be talking about '82, right? Yes, '82 on.
Cline
Yes.
Lim
By that time K-town has really, really matured. I mean, hundreds of restaurants, hundreds of churches, and maybe hundreds of nightclubs, too.
Cline
Yes, right, the nightlife started up.
Lim
I was just too damned busy working. I mean, I'm not sure if you know how young lawyers operate. When they first come out of law school and they get a job, they have to kill themselves to prove to the firm that you're a worthy associate and that you might be partner material. So I was just working like a dog.
Cline
When did you have your first child, you and your wife?
Lim
Actually only two years after I became a lawyer, so it was rather early. Yes, 1984 is when I had my son. His name is Jonathan [Lim]. I was working so hard. I remember the best times were coming home and giving him a bath late at night.
Cline
I mean, I can only imagine starting a family and working that kind of a job, you weren't getting out much. [laughs]
Lim
Yes.
Cline
You said that there were lots of restaurants and all this kind of thing going in. At this point did you have a sense of who was really running these businesses and who they were getting to work for them and how the community was developing as far as who lived here and who didn't and all of that?
Lim
Not so much in the eighties. I think I had acquired a much better understanding several years after that; maybe in the nineties. I started my own law firm in '86.
Cline
Oh, pretty soon.
Lim
Yes, and that's when I was sort of forced to understand the dynamics of the Korean businesses.
Cline
Okay. Well, we'll get to that, I guess. So it sounds like you did pretty well working yourself to death if you were getting your own business together by '86. How much time were you able to spend with your family when they were really small, and when did your second child come in the picture?
Lim
She came in '87. Then I had a third one in '88. So, yes, it was work, work, work, but I'd try to take vacation time off and spend time with the kids and the family.
Cline
Your wife, did she continue working?
Lim
She stopped working after the third one. She chose to be a stay-at-home mom. It was sort of a debate. Well, she wanted to make it a debate. She said, "Should I or should I not?" And I said, "It's your choice," because I just didn't want to unduly influence her. If it didn't turn out well, then I would be bearing the responsibility. [laughs]
Cline
Right. Of course. Well, that must have really helped matters in terms of your children then.
Lim
Oh, absolutely. I think it was--for them, I mean, it was a wonderful thing that she made the choice that she did. I'm not sure if it was a good choice for her.
Cline
Right. And it certainly put more financial pressure on you, I guess, at that point.
Lim
Yes, you just work harder.
Cline
Oh, man. What led you to decide in '86 to start your own firm?
Lim
Well, a number of things. Even before I went to law school, I had visions about servicing Korean American businesses. In my belief that the community will be stronger if the business foundation for the community is stronger, and to be able to assist the business people in the community, to enable them to achieve their success, I thought in a macro sense would help the community. To be able to play a part in that, I thought, would be very meaningful.
Lim
That as a background, I perhaps made the move earlier than I had initially thought, but I had a friend who was working in a New York firm, both of us at the time had worked for the L.A. office of a New York firm in downtown, right here, and he kept approaching me and suggested that we start the first Korean American law firm. His name is Tong Soo [T.S.] Chung, for the record, actually a very prominent, well-known person in the Korean community. He not only ran for State Assembly position back in the eighties, but he was also one of the first Korean Americans to be appointed to the Department of Commerce as a deputy during the [President William J.] Clinton administration. So he worked under Ron Brown.
Lim
But anyway, as much as I would like to take credit for this firm, the founding of this firm, I have to give it to him, because he's the one that persisted about this idea of forming the firm. And it worked out really well. I'm glad he was persistent.
Cline
It was timed well, too, it seems, as the community was really booming at that point.
Lim
I think so. Yes, a lot of the Korean American businesses were beginning to take off. There was a bank called Hanmi Bank, which is the largest Korean American bank, it was formed in '82 and it was beginning to mature. There were other very thriving Korean American businesses that really needed quality legal services, but they didn't really have, at the time, a law firm that they could really depend on to implement their business strategies. So I think we came into the picture at the right time. There were some Korean lawyers around, just a handful of them at the time, but most of them were general practitioners, some were doing criminal defense, but I think most of them were doing a bunch of stuff, immigration, family, auto accidents, and on top of that to do business work, and that would have been very challenging, I think, whereas we came into the picture and we said, "All we're going to do is business practice," and that's all we do to this day. We don't do all the other stuff. So I'm glad that we were able to be of some service to this thriving Korean business community.
Cline
You mentioned the Hanmi Bank. What were some of the other types of businesses that you felt needed the support of your legal expertise?
Lim
Well, just to throw out some names, we did work for Hanmi Bank; we did work for Center Bank; we did legal work for a company called Fashion 21 dba Forever 21, which has now become one of the major players in the country. We did legal work for a blue jeans manufacturer which eventually became AG Jeans. Another one that's pretty well known, I think, is the independent market chain known as Superior Warehouse. They're a very large company. But when we started with them, or I should say when they started with us, I think they had two markets and they were a small company, and now they're one of the largest in California as an independent chain operator. So, yes, I think we worked side by side with these businesses that were small and they have now become major significant players in California.
Cline
How much awareness during this time did you have of what was going on in Korea or how much of a necessity was it for you to keep abreast of things going on over there?
Lim
I don't think that the necessity level was that high, but I've always endeavored to understand the Korean politics and the Korean economy because it had an impact on the Korean businesses here.
Cline
Yes, right. More and more so, I guess, as time goes on.
Lim
Oh, absolutely.
Cline
Does this sound like a good place to call it for you today?
Lim
Sure.
Cline
Okay. We'll continue next time with more specific information about the growth of these businesses in Koreatown, and of course that will place us headlong into 1992 when the Korean American community suddenly becomes very--
Lim
The L.A. riots?
Cline
Yes, well known to the rest of the country for the first time.
Lim
Sure.
Cline
Thank you.
Lim
You're welcome. [End of session two]

1.3. Session 3 (February 14, 2008)

Cline
Today is February 14, Valentine's Day. Happy Valentine's Day.
Lim
Thank you. Same to you.
Cline
Thanks. It's the year 2008. This is Alex Cline interviewing John Lim, once again at his office in downtown Los Angeles.
Cline
Good morning.
Lim
Good morning to you.
Cline
Thanks for making some more time to talk to me. We've had a few shifts in this schedule and here we are at last following up with our third session now.
Cline
One thing I wanted to ask you by way of follow-up questions, is you were pretty clear in describing the way you seemed to approach your middle school and high school years as being a time for fun more than anything, and that you kind of got down to it when you graduated high school and went to college, starting with an accounting degree at [California State University] Northridge and then going on to law school in [University of California] San Francisco. One of the things I was curious about is, particularly in light of the amount of academic pressure exerted by families in the Asian community, when you were goofing around and having fun and ditching school and all that in high school, who were you doing that with?
Lim
Friends who were similarly situated as me, mostly I would say Korean American immigrant kids like me who were having the same types of challenges as me in terms of assimilating to a mainstream society.
Cline
Do you have any sense of numbers of how many were there like you in the community?
Lim
Well, I wouldn't be able to come up with a number for that, but it would be a significant pool of friends. I would say less than a hundred, but definitely more than twenty. Somewhere in that range.
Cline
Because, as I'm sure you're well aware, there's this notion that Asian kids are all very studious, and I think the people who struggle against that and who have trouble assimilating don't get a lot of coverage, or perhaps the way that people deal with those difficulties doesn't get talked about a lot.
Cline
So it was more than just you who was feeling the rebellious streak coming out of that situation?
Lim
There were more than a handful of us, I would say. I think that prevailing perception is accurate, but there were kids who didn't fit into that stereotype, like me. But the ones that excelled through high school didn't necessarily excel in college or grad school. I think the Asian kids who tend to be quite obedient to their parents are the ones that generally did very well through high school, but what I noticed was that some of them, regretfully more share or more number than one would like to see, struggled in college because suddenly they were now given the freedom and responsibility to manage their own time. They never learned that in high school because they were such good kids to their parents.
Cline
Interesting.
Lim
It was the opposite for me. I had all the freedom and the burden of time management.
Cline
Would you say there were any other factors that some of these kids like you had in common? Was there an economic consistency or was it very diverse, the kinds of backgrounds, the families that they came from?
Lim
I think there was a high degree of consistency, if you want to characterize it as such, in that we were all from families that were not economically well off, and being put out in the workforce at an early age probably exposed us to things that came with that, which was how to have fun.
Cline
Interesting. You would, at this point, be starting to see a lot more Korean immigrants coming into Los Angeles. I'm assuming that where you'd probably be seeing that most, other than the neighborhood, would be at church.
Lim
Correct.
Cline
What would some of your observations be about the new generation of immigrants that were coming in and what ways were they maybe the same or different from, say, your family and your situation?
Lim
Frankly, at the time I don't think I had much of an observation, other than seeing quite a number of people coming from Korea, because I was too young to be sensitive to that issue. But I realized much later that the families that immigrated in the years much later than me, I would say maybe ten years later or so, were generally much better off. They were wealthier immigrants, and we'll put quotation marks around "wealthier," because by U.S. standard it wasn't that much wealthier. They had the capital to embark on their entrepreneurial pursuits, whereas the immigrants that came in the sixties, like myself and our families, we were very limited in the capital. I think at the time there were some constraints put on the families immigrating to the U.S. under Korean law.
Cline
Oh, interesting.
Lim
That you couldn't take with you, as you were leaving Korea, more than $50 per person.
Cline
Wow.
Lim
That's my recollection.
Cline
Interesting. That would certainly limit things.
Cline
Related to this, one of the things I wondered about was the amount of suburban flight that would, I imagine, be taking place with some of the immigrants coming in who were better off. Your family stayed in the Koreatown area, which I gather is actually not that common, the pattern usually being getting out of there as quickly as possible and going into other suburban areas where the schools have good reputations and things like that. What was your sense of where people were going once they got here? Where were they headed?
Lim
The earlier immigrants, those that came in the sixties and seventies, I have seen them, quote, unquote, "get out" to the Valley, San Fernando Valley area. I think the immigrants that came after that group tended to move to the Orange County area more so, the Fullerton, Cerritos area. I don't know if that's responsive to your question.
Cline
Yes, absolutely. As the wealthier immigrants were coming in during the eighties, and you mentioned that they had more capital, they were more able to exercise their entrepreneurial muscle, so to speak, maybe you were too young to notice this, but looking back on it, perhaps, how did the types of businesses that Korean immigrants were going into change? What changes did you start to see in the Korean business community, the types of things that might have been different about what they were getting into entrepreneurially speaking, as opposed to earlier, if anything?
Lim
I'm not sure if I can actually call it a change in the types of business. I think it's more of an evolution process. The immigrants that were doing the restaurants and the markets in the early seventies maybe set the stage for the later immigrants to get in the same line of business, but the ones that came later, as I said earlier, had more capital and they capitalized on the rapidly increasing immigrant population. So the restaurants flourished and the markets did well and the travel agencies that went with that, and you just saw a huge boom. So there was sort of a sub economy within the L.A. economy within the community that didn't really require much language skills, and they were dealing with the same type of consumers that they had back in Korea, and I think they did very well in that regard. Then they started to form their own banks. In 1982 Hanmi Bank was formed, which was the first Korean American home bank. Prior to that there was another bank called California Credit Bank, but that was owned by the government bank in Korea. So from that point on, after Hanmi Bank, you saw a number of banks that got formed over the course of the years. Now I think we have up to, if I'm not mistaken, maybe fourteen or fifteen Korean American banks.
Cline
Wow. So do you say there were just more of similar sorts of businesses rather than more different kinds of businesses, just larger numbers of them everywhere?
Lim
By and large. The exception to that is that some of the Korean entrepreneurs embarked on businesses that really catered to the mainstream consumer market. You had Korean Americans starting clothing stores that catered to the Latin Americans. You had Korean Americans in the grocery business that catered to Latin Americans. So when there was a change, it seemed like they were targeting more of the other ethnic group.
Cline
Interesting. So, related to that, when some of these people would set up a business and they would start to become successful enough so they could start hiring more employees, do you have a sense of who they were hiring to be their employees?
Lim
I think it was primarily a combination of the more recent immigrants in comparison to themselves, and the Hispanic market.
Cline
Who are right here in this community, the Koreatown community.
Lim
Right.
Cline
In terms of this more recent influx of immigrants, who do you think was kind of showing them the ropes, so to speak, when they got here? I mean, I know certainly earlier it was the church that tended to get people established and show them what they needed to do and the kind of forms they had to fill out and all that kind of thing. Do you think that was changing? Was it the same? Where do you think they were getting their information and their assistance?
Lim
I think that evolved into friends and relatives, and mostly relatives, I think, the earlier immigrant relatives helping the latter immigrant relatives.
Cline
When do you remember starting to see these assistance organizations popping up around for the Korean community, nonprofit organizations and things? I mean, obviously a lot more came in after 1992, but do you remember seeing any of that kind of thing going on during the eighties?
Lim
Yes, I think there were other grassroots community organizations in the eighties, but the churches definitely preceded them.
Cline
What about the interaction between the various generations now? You're what has been termed "the 1.5 generation." There was an earlier generation here and then, of course, there's a later generation that comes in. What was your sense or maybe your personal experience of the interaction between these generations and what might be perceived the differences or similarities between them?
Lim
Well, that's a tough one, Alex. The 1.5, and possibly including the second generations that were educated in the U.S. I think tended to be more open-minded about racial issues, more sensitive to the need for diversity and tolerance of other cultures. The first generations coming from a very homogenous society had less of those skill sets, so the interactions between those two groups I think were fine when it came to food and entertainment, but on certain sensitive issues such as those cultural, racial tensions, and politics and what have you, I just sense that there were some differences and some challenges in debating them. I recall the issue about the withdrawal of the troops, the U.S. troops in South Korea, and the second generation and the 1.5s understood the U.S. policies, but at the same time they also understood the concerns their parents had or have. This was a long time ago. This was when [President] Jimmy Carter actually pronounced that he was going to cause the gradual withdrawal. By the way, I don't think much has happened since then. [laughs]
Cline
No. I was going to say, very little has happened since then.
Lim
But I'm just using that as a small example where the 1.5 and 2.0s understood the U.S. perspective on certain issues that the first generation just simply could not accept. I'm not sure if that's the question that you're getting at.
Cline
Well, that's an example, sure. I know there starts to become some more contentiousness, particularly after 1992, in the community where there are some very different ideas as to what direction things need to go.
Lim
I guess it's another good example. The first generation came to the U.S. believing that this is a true capitalistic society and if you work hard and you invest money and you reap your profits, what's wrong with that? There was less consideration, if you will, about the social impacts and the other issues, whereas the 1.5 and the second generations were more sensitive to that and they were somewhat more sympathetic to the local community concerns, even though they were ambivalent themselves about the deprivation of the business opportunities that came after the L.A. riots to the Korean Americans that had businesses there, one good example being the moratorium that was passed by the city ordinance to prevent the rebuild of certain liquor stores altogether. There's clearly compelling social reasons for that type of ordinance, but at the same time you were taking away the fundamental right to rebuilt your business for which you paid substantial money for.
Cline
Yes.
Lim
So it was a public interest versus private enterprise interest, and the first generation tended to put more weight on the second, and the second and 1.5, I wouldn't say put more weight on the first, but they understood the reason for the dichotomy and the tension between the two issues better, I think.
Cline
How much do you think language issues had an impact on the relationship between the generations?
Lim
Well, from the standpoint of the first generation not having a full understanding of the perspectives of the U.S. culture and U.S. policies, I think the language had a huge impact. If they had the level of fluency and understanding, I think that they themselves would not have been so one-sided in their view. But within the family I don't think that the language challenge posed that much problem, because notwithstanding the fact that the second generations often didn't speak Korean language that well, they spoke well enough and understood well enough to, I think, have a meaningful dialogue with their parents.
Cline
Where would you say information about what was happening in the Korean American community was coming from in this period, in the eighties?
Lim
Well, an ordinary person would be relying on the media, the paper, TV, Korean news. Many church-goers, I'm sure, got some additional perspective from their pastors speaking on Sunday sermon, which in the Korean community the sermons often went beyond just the Bible. There were comments here and there about what immigrants ought to do and how immigrants should succeed and pursue their American dream.
Cline
There's been a lot suggested, particularly during this period, about how little it appeared that Korean Americans were getting involved in things like local politics or public service in that way. I'm aware of a lot of reasons for that, but in your view, what do you think was happening in terms of the Korean immigrants' view and experience of political involvement or public service, even at the local level in terms of how they might affect their own community?
Lim
Well, first of all, I think that is an issue to which the response would vary immensely, depending on who you're asking. So just as sort of a general background, I would tell you that the first-generation immigrants that came to the U.S. in the sixties and the seventies are the ones that had lived in Korea under the rule of the dictator Pak Chung-hee. So they'd been sort of ingrained in their mind that there's very little you can do to alter the politics or have an impact on the policy of the government, so I think they tend to be more apathetic, if you will. I'm sure language had a major factor in it, too, not understanding the issues. Sure, the Korean paper and news may address the subject, but since I'm bilingual and I listen to the Korean TV and news once in a while and I read the Korean paper once in a while, it's very clear to me that the way they address the issue or explain the issue is very limited and superficial at times. Frankly, I can't fault them, because you have to have the interest level there to really get into it from the media standpoint. So language, again, was a major factor. In defense of the immigrants, I would say that another significant reason is they're so consumed in trying to make it in the U.S. and pursuing their American dream, that politics sort of took a backseat. But I see that changing right now. I see a greater interest than ever before among the Korean Americans to understood political issues and to have an input, and I think the voter registration has dramatically increased, and the Koreans are playing, I think, a vital role in local politics. Not at the national level, we just don't have the number, but at the local level in certain districts more so than before, definitely. I believe that trend is going to continue.
Cline
When you were going to school, of course one of the things you would have had to learn, perhaps again and again, was U.S. history, and of course, you also get to learn about what they call civics, you know, how all these various agencies work, how everything's set up here in this country. What was that like for you and how much relevance do you think that seemed to have at the time you were learning all about it? And related to that, how much impact do you think that had on changing attitudes about immigrant involvement in things like politics, if any at all?
Lim
As I told you, Alex, as a kid I wasn't that much into school stuff, but like James Taylor said, "I don't know much about history." You know the song, right? The James Taylor song?
Cline
Yes, right.
Lim
But clearly these subject matters became very important to me as I was getting older.
Cline
Which is when history does tend to become more interesting to people anyway.
Lim
Absolutely, and of course now I'm a history buff. But it's hard to answer that because I don't really recall acquiring a certain level of knowledge that I thought was instrumental in my later days. I probably let my mind wander off in the history class a little too much. But, sure, just to be a bit more responsive, I got to understand the basics of the U.S. government structure when I was in high school and had an opportunity to compare that with what I knew of the Korean government back then. The Korean government, they don't have a Senate and a House [of Representatives]. It's a Parliament structure and the term is five-year presidency, one-term limit, and things of that sort, which were just merely informative back then, but now very intriguing, and the constant debate in my mind now as to which system is better.
Cline
Interesting. Well, I see I should have written that down. The question just flew right out of my head. Give me a second here.
Cline
Oh, they have things like student government in high school and junior high school, and one of the ways it's sometimes seen to excel in school is to get involved in student government. Do you remember any of your Korean American classmates getting into that sort of thing?
Lim
The short answer is no, and if any of them did, they wouldn't be my friends anymore.
Cline
[laughs] Wow. Interesting, because actually suddenly I had this memory of these first-generation Korean classmates I had growing up, and they were very--I mean, I don't know that they even spoke Korean, but they were both very accelerated when it came to things like academics, and one of them was the student body president at my junior high school.
Lim
Well, they're driven kids. They're the kind of kids that all the parents would love to have as their kids.
Cline
Yes, and they were among the only Koreans in the school, too, but, yes, they were real achievers. The Ahns.
Cline
Okay. One of the things that you mentioned last time was this person who basically convinced you to go into this law firm with him, to start your own law firm. I presume this is T.S. [Tong Soo] Chung, a name that comes up again and again in these interviews, by the way. Among other things, I guess he was involved in the founding of the Korean American Coalition, and since he is not available to talk to us, can you perhaps say a little bit more about him and his influence not only in the course of your life, which obviously is considerable, but his importance in the community as we head towards the landmark year of 1992 here? Just a little bit more about who he is and what he has done.
Lim
T.S. was the poster child, if you will. He's a couple of years older than me. He went to Hollywood High School. He went to Harvard [University] undergrad, Princeton [University] graduate school, and then subsequently UCLA Law School. So he was sort of the figure that the parents wanted their kids to emulate, and he was very much into politics, not for the sake of making a name for himself, but he understood that politics was the vehicle to make changes for the Korean Americans here, give them opportunities that he felt that they deserved and get them recognition, some voice in the mainstream. I believe that's what motivated him to start the Korean American Coalition. So in many ways he's a pioneer of the advocacy of the interest of the Korean Americans in the U.S., I think.
Lim
He was a lawyer by trade. He actually became a lawyer two years after me, because he had gone to graduate school in between college and law school. I believe I told you that he went to work for the Department of Commerce. Did I tell you that before?
Cline
No.
Lim
Oh, I'm sorry. So when we started in the firm in 1986, we had a common vision, which was that we would be the legal vehicle to further the interests of the Korean American businesses, which would in turn, we believed, would positively impact the Korean communities at large. In 1993 he was given an opportunity to join Ron Brown. I think he was the deputy assistant to Ron Brown.
Cline
I think you did mention that, yes.
Lim
He went off and I was left, with a number of other partners in the firm, to carry on our dream. We have succeeded in that respect because the firm is much larger and stronger now than the time that he left the firm, so I think that if you were to ask him, he would say that he's proud that I didn't let this thing collapse.
Cline
He is often characterized as being quite outspoken. How would you characterize him in terms of his advocacy for the community?
Lim
Outspoken in the sense that he's not shy about making his position known on controversial issues, but he's not the kind of person who is confrontational in the way he communicates his thinking. He's much of a diplomat. I mean, if I had the opportunity to appoint ambassadors to different regions of the world, I mean, I would definitely consider T.S. as a good candidate.
Cline
So one of the things that was also happening that I wondered if you had a sense of, as regimes change, you were talking in South Korea the system there and how it turns over. With the regimes changing, and we, of course, over here have this view of the South and the North being, you know, North bad, South good, not a lot of people, I think, in this country gave a lot of thought to the fact that a lot of the people who were running the government in South Korea weren't exactly allowing a lot of certain types of freedoms either. How much do you think governmental policy and regime changes affected the reasons that people were coming over here as opposed to just, say, economic opportunity?
Lim
Fifties, sixties, even up through the seventies, I would say that that aspect played a critical role, but over that time period I would say more so than the earlier, within that period, and less so in the latter part of that period. As democracy started to really become a real thing in Korea and there was less persecution of the opposing party leaders, I think that it just became less of a factor. But definitely in the fifties and sixties, many defected. I don't know if that's the right way to put it, but a forced defection, if you will. I know that many of them have gone to countries like Brazil and, yes, a lot to the United States and then some to England.
Cline
Although there were anti-immigration limitations here until after 1965. So, yes, I guess they would have had to--
Lim
Even then.
Cline
--get creative.
Lim
I think the student visa status was the commonly used vehicle and they would come as professors, or initially as graduate students and then take a position as a professor and get their residency status as a professor or as a professional, like physicians and what have you.
Cline
This is perhaps more of a general question, even though we're still kind of talking during the eighties at this point, but considering the divided nature of the country and the perception and feelings about communism prevailing, what was your sense of the Korean American community's general political character? Was there any consistency there or was it pretty diverse?
Lim
I think on the North-South issue, very conservative. The immigrants brought with them the political state of mind from the era that they emigrated. On the social issues, much more liberal, and on the religious issues probably in a way initially more conservative and then becoming more liberal as they get assimilated into the mainstream.
Cline
How much--I'm trying to think of a way to phrase this question. Coming over here, I know there's a fair amount of keeping in touch with what's going on, obviously, in the homeland. How much do you think immigrants who came over here maintained a sense of where South Korea was really at? I guess really what I'm asking is, how much do you think their perception of South Korea basically stayed the same once they were over here? In other words, how much do you think they were really aware of what was changing over there?
Lim
I think in the recent years they're very much on top of it because of the Internet. Prior to the Internet age, I would say they relied heavily on TV and newspaper and what their relatives tell them over the phone on international phone calls in terms of just information about what's going on. In terms of their cultural posture, and that's kind of an interesting way to put it, but the reason I put the word "posture" is that it's more how they project themselves as opposed to how they really feel. In that respect, I think they just sort of really kept the old-fashioned Korean culture that prevailed upon them in the sixties and seventies, when in fact Korea has changed altogether.
Lim
I'll give you, let's say, an example between a husband and wife. In the old days, when those Koreans immigrated in the sixties and seventies, maybe the wife was expected to sort of do all the kitchen work and care for the baby by herself, but that has changed dramatically in Korea. Now, that is not the prevailing culture in Korea. I wouldn't say it's at the level of the U.S. culture, but not much different. But the immigrants that came to the U.S. in the sixties and seventies still have that same disposition, at least in the way they project themselves with their posture. How they feel inside may be a different story. So it's kind of interesting to see that the Korean Americans are more old-fashioned than the Koreans in Korea.
Cline
Others have pointed that out. How much travel do you think there was going back to South Korea with people more of your generation? I have to assume that nowadays there's a lot more travel back and forth, but how much do you think that would have an effect on their point of view about what was happening?
Lim
Oh, I think significant, if they had the opportunity to travel more frequently. I mean, obviously the more affluent you are, the more able you are to travel because it's not a cheap proposition to go to Korea. It's very expensive, the hotels and airfare and everything. But the people who go back often, like myself because I have business matters there to attend to, I think have a better understanding of what Korea or South Korea is really like today, than the ones that immigrated and have not gone back and just kind of see Korea through what they see on TV, mostly soap operas.
Cline
Right. Channel 18.
Cline
So one of the things that we've been kind of dancing around here, I guess I'll just walk right into now, which is a landmark event that really brings the Korean American community into the living rooms of the rest of the nation, is the riots here in 1992. Of course, a great many Korean American businesses were affected in this. Where were you that day and what do you remember about it?
Lim
I was actually here [at his law office in downtown Los Angeles]. We were very nervously awaiting the announcement, or the verdict in the trial of Rodney King, and when it came down to not guilty, yes, I was apprehensive, because the grounds were actually laid in before that verdict came down because of the case that preceded that case, which was Soon-Ja-Du, the Latasha Harlins case. I forget exactly how many months it preceded that, but that was all over the news here, L.A. Times reporting it as a Korean grocer killing a sixteen-year-old or fifteen-year-old African American girl. It was tragic in so many senses, but I don't think media helped by calling Soon-Ja-Du "a Korean grocer." The emphasis on the word "Korean" clearly raised tension. I mean, it was not a--but, you know, that's how news works, media works, right?
Cline
Yes, right.
Lim
You can't say, "A grocer killed a girl." You have to put the racial component in there.
Cline
That's the dominant culture at work.
Lim
Right. But, you know, to be accurate, which is what media is expected to be, be accurately reporting, she should have been called a Korean American grocer, because Korean grocers are in Seoul, Korea, or different parts of Seoul, Korea. She was an American like the rest of us, but when something negative is portrayed, we take out the American part. It's like if something happens in Costa Mesa, it's a Vietnamese gang as opposed to--but when something positive happens, like what's that famous--Michael Chang wins the French Open and, of course, nobody says it's a Chinese tennis player winning the French Open, the headline was "Our American Wins the French Open."
Cline
Yes, right.
Lim
When Kristi Yamaguchi won the world skating--
Cline
Yes, the Gold Medal in the Olympics, yes.
Lim
Right, Gold Medal. Clearly the headline read, "Our American Wins the Gold Medal."
Cline
Yes, right.
Lim
Did say, "Our Jap Won."
Cline
That's for sure. [laughs]
Lim
It's the hypocrisy of the way the media works is, I think, extremely tragic and very unfortunate to minorities. So clearly the stage was already set for that, with that Latasha Harlins tragic incident and compounded that was the Rodney King case. So I was right here, to go back to your question, and I was looking out from my window, and as the day was getting darker, you could see flames all over the city. I was, at the time, the president of the Korean American Bar Association [KABA]. The vice president was Angela [E.] Oh, who is extremely well known in the L.A. community at large, and she was on Nightline, as you may recall, with Ted Koppel. So Angela came to my office and we were looking at the city together from my twenty-eighth floor in my building, and we got into my SUV [sport utility vehicle] and we drove around town and we were talking about what we needed to do as Korean American lawyers. So from that day it was a very busy twelve-month period following that, not precisely twelve months, but over a year, because we did pro bono legal work for the victims of the riots.
Cline
When you said you drove around, where were you going?
Lim
I can't remember precisely, but it was, by and large, K-town.
Cline
What did you see?
Lim
What we saw on TV; fire, looting, people screaming, yelling. It was one of the most tragic things that I had to eyewitness in my life and hope to never see again, which, unfortunately, is something that happens quite often around the world right now in less democratic societies.
Cline
Right. Then what was your impression of the media coverage of the riots, dare I ask?
Lim
Well, I had mixed feelings about it. Some of the coverages were a fair depiction of what was going on, the issues were brought to the surface, but in a certain other respects it was unfair to the Korean Americans. I mean, it was almost as though the Korean Americans were the cause of the anger, the sense of injustice, and the frustration that the African Americans were feeling within the community. The Koreans, I think Korean Americans understood a lot of that. What they don't understand is, but how could that take or cause this sort of criminal activity to be viewed as okay. That's the part that I think most Koreans or Korean Americans struggled with.
Cline
What about the scenes of Korean Americans defending their businesses with firearms and all that kind of thing?
Lim
Yes. I think, you know, it happened and it's fair, if it happened there's no reason for hiding that, but what I was saying earlier about how the Koreans felt that it was unfair was that those situations were relatively isolated situations, which were sort of magnified and put on the front page, in the highlights of the news all the time, making it seem like Koreans were people of such greed that they would kill to protect their property, which is a very unfair depiction, and to this day, I think that many Koreans are resentful about the American media because of it.
Cline
What do you remember about how Angela Oh sort of became the spokesperson for the community and wound up on Nightline with Ted Koppel as that spokesperson, and what was your perception of how that may have helped or not helped the situation with the media portrayal that was happening?
Lim
See, I don't understand the controversy behind that, because I was in total support of it. I was the president. In fact, I made the decision along with other key people to have Angela be our spokesperson, and I think she did a magnificent job. I applaud her. To this day we are grateful for her. And of course, she's always been my friend, so I'm partial. I think it was to me, by and large, a fair and accurate projection of the sentiments of the Korean Americans at that time. Whenever you have something like that, there's going to be a small faction who says, "Oh, you're not speaking for me."
Cline
Yes, of course.
Lim
But so be it. I think she sent the message to America at large, some of the feelings that the Koreans had at the time.
Cline
And apparently for that show originally there had been no Korean American invited at all.
Lim
That's correct. That's correct.
Cline
Which is pretty astounding. So you began doing pro bono work on behalf of, I presume, a lot of these business owners?
Lim
Well, to be more accurate, it's not just me, I mean it was a group of about a hundred Korean American lawyers that we mobilized who were members of the Korean American Bar Association of Southern California. It so happened that that year I was the president, and usually to get the lawyers to come together for any event was a real challenge, but that's when everybody just jumped up and said, "How high do you want me to jump?" Everyone rolled up his or her sleeves, and we worked out a schedule, and lawyers from different segments of their legal community all came and we were really united in our goal, and that was to provide free legal services to the victims in their relief process.
Cline
How would you characterize the composition of this group of lawyers? Were they largely Korean? Were they all types of people?
Lim
Yes, it was an overwhelming percentage. I would say more than 95 percent were Korean American lawyers.
Cline
You mentioned, obviously, the frustration and the resentment. What was your perception of the prevailing feeling of the people you were assisting in the wake of this tragedy?
Lim
Oh, gosh, it's heart-wrenching. The people that were coming to our clinic--by the way, I can sort of maybe be a little bit more descriptive about how that pro bono operation worked.
Cline
That would be great.
Lim
We'd initially set up our operation at a local church, Oriental Mission Church, on Western [Avenue], and it was maybe about twenty lawyers. The word got out that KABA, which stands for Korean American Bar Association, is operating this pro bono clinic, and lawyers that we had not seen for years just came up to sign up to be pro bono lawyers. So at its high point we had up to a hundred lawyers on our list, and what we did was we had a sort of a time chart. What's the best way to describe it? We had different shifts with different people and different dates and we would cover from morning to evening. The lawyers would sit there and there would be tables set up and the victims would just come in, walk in, and the lawyers would review their situation and give them advice on how to pursue it. In many cases--in some cases not many cases, some cases they would actually take the case to their own firm and sign them up as a pro bono client. So there were issues like lease termination, insurance coverage, FEMA [Federal Emergency Management Agency] relief, and a whole host of other legal issues that come up. We were doing some direct services to the victims. We were also getting involved with impact litigation, which was a lawsuit against FEMA, and we were also doing policy advocacy. That was what KABA did. I can't take credit for that. It so happens that I was the president and I was under the spotlight, but it was really the work of all of those members of KABA that I think made a difference for many people, because they would have never been able to pursue their legal rights and remedies without the assistance of a lawyer, which they couldn't afford, because everything got burned down. Right?
Cline
Yes.
Lim
So they were in a bad, bad situation and it was so disheartening to see them walk in, and I've never seen that many clients cry. I mean, in my practice, you know, I meet CEOs [chief executive officers] and CFOs [chief financial officers]. I just don't see clients shed their tears in an office, but that was one year when basically it was every day witnessing, eye-witnessing, Korean Americans, many of them elderly folks, you know, fifties, sixties, seventies, running businesses that were burned down and just in total tears as they would come and see us, because we were the only source of hope for them.
Cline
Who else was involved in supporting these people and providing some kind of aid, not necessarily legal, but were there other organizations?
Lim
Oh, absolutely. Yes, there was a very important and very instrumental organization called Asian Pacific American Legal Center, headed by Stewart Kwoh, who was the executive director. As a matter of fact, Stewart and I became very good friends through that incident and I actually sit on that board now. I've been sitting on the board for fifteen-plus years of that organization. It's a legal aid public interest law group for Asian Americans at large.
Lim
KABA was never meant to function as a permanent relief center. That was sort of more of a reaction to a crises and we did it for a year, but in the course of doing that, we teamed up with the Legal Center, Asian Pacific American Legal Center, Stewart Kwoh's organization, and Rebuild L.A., because a lot of this work went well beyond a one-year period. We thought that it'd be prudent to team up with an organization that had continuity. So after that approximately twelve-month period of time, the workforce essentially got merged into the work that Rebuild L.A. and the Legal Center were doing.
Cline
I presume you had to keep your own clients and things going in order to--
Lim
That was a real challenge, because I know that I worked almost full-time that year, 1992, on the relief efforts, and then on top of that, I had to work part-time here. So it was an incredible year. I lost a lot of weight. I was getting very little sleep. I had to keep my firm above the water, but in reality, it was that one year we actually went into red and we had to borrow from our line of credit to keep it above the water.
Cline
Oh, wow.
Lim
But my partners were very understanding and they had the same commitment I had. It was just that I was in the front line and they weren't, but they were very gracious and they allowed me to do what we all felt that needed to be done.
Cline
I know this is a huge question, but I'll ask it anyway. How do you think the riots changed the Korean American community here in L.A. and beyond?
Lim
I guess in a way that it changed the Jewish American community after the Watts riot. The sensitivity to these racial and culture issues were definitely raised, I think. The notion of owning a mom-and-pop store in the quote, unquote, "ghetto neighborhood" was not necessarily viewed as the best way to make a living. I think there was a greater increasing effort to have a good relationship with other ethnic groups, especially the African American communities. I noticed that more churches were reaching out to provide some economic assistance under the auspices of better community relations, like scholarships or funding certain types of projects, what have you. So I think a lot of positive came out of it. It's just that so many innocent business owners have to pay a huge price for which they never got fully addressed.
Cline
How do you view the impact on the different generations, particularly the first generation versus the 1.5 or second generation people, in the ways they were aspiring to handle the aftermath and the significance of it? What was your sense of how that was playing out? Were they united in this? Were there different points of view?
Lim
There were some different points of view, I think. Like I said earlier, I think the second generation, the first 1.5 generations, which were more sympathetic to the outcries coming from the African American community than the first generation.
Cline
What kind of an impact did that have on the leadership within the Korean American community?
Lim
Probably more of the affirmation of maybe the divided view within the Korean community. There is an organization called Korean Federation and there's the KAC, Korean American Coalition. They play a different role, but the Korean Federation is the organization that I think is closer to the hearts of the first generation, whereas KAC to the hearts of 1.5 and second generation. Generally those two organizations still kind of work independent of each other, although I think there is a concerted effort to sort of increase the dialogue and collaboration. But certain issues will divide them, no question, because the first generation will have the more, you know, old-fashioned view of my position, my stake, etc., whereas the 1.5 and second will be more sensitive to the issues raised by the communities outside of our own.
Cline
What was your view of how the city government here began to view and handle the Korean American community after the riots?
Lim
I think your earlier question about the Korean Americans' level of interest in politics where in fact significantly affected by the disappointment that prevailed among the Korean Americans with the city of Los Angeles and the politicians within that. The general perception, I thought, was that the city and its political representatives were much more in tune with hearing what the African American community leaders were saying and were sort of deaf ear to the Korean Americans. They were sort of complaining about that, but I think the second generation and 1.5s were saying, "What did you expect? We have no voice, because you guys don't do anything to create a political muscle. You use your money to send your kids to Harvard and Yale, but you don't donate to organizations that want to be your voice, so what do you expect?" That was sort of the kind of dialogue that went back and forth between the first generation and the 1.5 and second.
Cline
Interesting. There was a lot of talk about rebuilding and revitalizing the city in the wake of all this, and L.A. got a new mayor [Richard J. Riordan] shortly thereafter. What is your view of how that went, particularly in light of the need of the Korean American community?
Lim
You know, I'm really not sure. My general sense is that there was the feeling that the mayor really didn't do anything for the Korean Americans. He sure came to collect on his political funds, and I think Korean Americans started giving more after the riots. I think that's an example of where the yield was zero, because it really didn't do anything. That's a perception. I mean, I'm not saying that is in fact the case; I think that is the prevailing perception among the Korean Americans that I've talked to.
Cline
What was your sense of the number, maybe percentage-wise, of Korean Americans who just bailed out, didn't rebuild, didn't go back into business, maybe even--
Lim
There were quite a few. I can't put a number on it, but there were quite a few.
Cline
Did they stay in L.A. or did they just go away?
Lim
I couldn't answer that, Alex.
Cline
This is just one of those things you never hear about.
Lim
I know from a fact from just knowing a couple of people, there were some relocation efforts. I don't know if, in fact, they did move or not.
Cline
You hear about how many people leave L.A. after, for example, the [1994] Northridge earthquake, but you don't hear about people leaving because of riots, and you know some had to have left, because maybe there's nothing here for them anymore. I was just curious about that.
Cline
So you mentioned the Korean American Coalition and the Korean Federation. What was your awareness of some of the other nonprofit organizations in the community's involvement in helping the community in the aftermath of the riots, and what do you remember about the development of more of these kinds of organizations in this effort?
Lim
Well, a number of organizations stepped up and played a very critical, pivotal role, I thought. Korean American CPA Society was very instrumental in the relief effort in assisting many of the victims to renegotiate the SBA [Small Business Association] loans that were outstanding, in some cases to actually get more SBA loan to rebuild. A lot of the business owners didn't own the business free and clear. But the means by which they were repaying the interest and principal have one day vanished. So that was a very difficult situation, and as lawyers we could only do so much. We can evaluate their rights under the lease, remedies, their obligations under the SBA loan documents, but in terms of actually trying to restructure the loan and getting the numbers crunched, it was the CPAs that actually stepped up and did a lot of pro bono work. So it was really a beautiful collaborative spirit that had prevailed among the professionals that really put in hundreds and hundreds, and in my case more than a thousand hours. I mean, I put in, I think, about well over a thousand hours largely unnoticed, you know, and no glory there, but that's fine, because none of us ever thought for a moment to get any sort of recognition out of this, because that wasn't what drove us. What drove us was the sense of equity and wanting to assist the victims in remedying the situation so that the gross injustice is at least in some way alleviated.
Cline
How much, if any, support and sympathy do you remember receiving from people in organizations outside the Korean American community? I mean, obviously language issues notwithstanding.
Lim
I can't speak for other organizations, but KABA was widely supported by different organizations. L.A. County Bar [Association] offered to provide assistance. The [California] State Bar [Association], as well. I mean, there was a significant amount of recognition for the work we did within the legal community. I'm embarrassed to say this, but I was the recipient of the Pro Bono Award in the following year for the work that I did in 1992. I felt really guilty getting it, because I never for a moment thought about the award when I was doing it. Apparently, it's a very prestigious award, but it was an award that should be given to all of the KABA lawyers who did the pro bono work and not just John Lim, but I guess you can say that I was the recipient on behalf of all of them. I was put into a situation with having to meet with people like Jesse Jackson and George [H.W.] Bush, then president, senior, and none of that was that important to me. I was looking for an opportunity to translate that into more relief and greater harmony. But to be honest, I don't think I succeeded in that endeavor because George Bush, president, senior Bush, didn't really, in my view, do much for the Korean American businesses and owners.
Cline
How would you assess the potential change in the political climate of the community, not just in terms of suddenly becoming aware of the need for political involvement, but maybe in terms of political philosophy, once essentially the government sort of let them down? Did you have any sense of a shift in point of view within the community at that point?
Lim
Just for a while, but I'm not sure. If there were any significant shift, I'm not sure if that stayed that way for too long. I think at the time when there was a lot of blaming done on the Koreans and Korean Americans that contribute to the social ills of the African Americans, a lot of the self-righteous Korean Americans were very, very vocal in their opposition to those community leaders that were pretty outspoken back then. You have to remember, a lot of the African American leaders had access to media.
Cline
Right. Right.
Lim
But the Korean American leaders, if there were any, I'm embarrassed to say, I guess, many Korean Americans might have looked to me as one of them, but we didn't have that much access. I mean, I had an opportunity to debate with Maxine Waters, and I met with Jesse Jackson, sat on the same panel on a certain present--it's so long ago, Alex, I can't even tell you what the topic was. But our voice was just generally not heard very well. I know that some of the discussions that we had were aired on the radio, it might have been NPR [National Public Radio], I'm not sure, but by and large, Koreans were not sought out, the Korean American leaders. In fact, you can't even blame the media because how would they find out? I mean, sure, if they did more homework, maybe they would get some directions there. But, yes, that's changing, no question about it. I think we're getting much better at it now. In the paper, nowadays if you read the paper you see the same names pop up over and over again. So I think that's sort of a positive indication that maybe the media is now able to find these unofficial spokespersons.
Cline
Now, of course, whenever there's some big tragedy in the Korean American community, they're all standing out in front of that building [KOA Building at Sixth Street and Harvard Boulevard] over there on Sixth Street or wherever it is, talking to everybody over there.
Cline
I suppose this is one of the ways that Angela Oh wound up becoming the kind of default spokesperson since they had probably no idea who else to talk to if she had become the spokesperson on this show then everybody wants to ask her. I know she's very self-conscious about that now, which is why she keeps turning me down about when I ask her to do an interview. She said, "I'm the most interviewed Korean American there is. I've probably said enough."
Cline
How much were you traveling to Korea around that time and the time of the riots? Were you still traveling a lot then?
Lim
No, in that era I couldn't do anything. After the riot, I was trying to get back to my normal business routine.
Cline
What was your sense of the perception of this event in South Korea?
Lim
Perplexed, confused, angry, sympathetic, but still somewhat distant from it because they don't live here. And maybe to some folks it was amusing.
Cline
Interesting.
Lim
So-called the most developed nation in the world to be so uncivilized, so crazy, in their view. You know, when there's political demonstrations in Korea and the police force come and students throw whatever they throw, it's covered on Nightline and The View--
Cline
Yes. Yes, I'd say they have a lot of that.
Lim
The projection there is that, "Look. Look at this developing nation. They're still violent about expressing their views and how they exercise their freedom of speech. It's primitive." And yet in this country, so-called the most powerful and developed, sophisticated, civilized society, what was going on was absolutely shocking. Where were the cops?
Cline
Yes, I was going to say the police and then even the National Guard.
Lim
Where is the National Guard? Right. So, yes, the Koreans were probably amused. You know, "They call themselves the most civilized people in the world." Something you couldn't imagine seeing in Korea.
Cline
Wow. Interesting. After all that was becoming a feeling more in the past and you were returning to your regular work sort of life, what was your sense of where you may have felt the community was headed at that point?
Lim
Although it's for a very tragic incident that maybe set the stage, but I thought the community was increasingly becoming more sensitive to, I think, racial issues. More effort was being made, more monetary investments were being made to improve interracial relation issues. So I think some positive definitely came out of it. It was unfortunate that it was prompted by something so negative.
Cline
Yes. And of course, you know, we did start to see the businesses come back and--
Lim
Not all of them came back. Many of them couldn't come back because of the ordinance I was telling you about.
Cline
Right. But certainly in the Koreatown area things continued to develop.
Lim
Sure. Oh, absolutely.
Cline
Well, I think on that note, we'll call it for today and then I think we can finish next time with your feelings about where things are now and looking back at that as a historical event, it's been a while now, and where things may be headed from this point on, and where you are with your life and your work and where you see yourself now as a Korean American. Okay?
Lim
Sounds good.
Cline
All right. Thanks a lot.
Lim
Sure. [End of session three]

1.4. Session 4 (March 7, 2008)

Cline
Today is Friday, March 7, 2008. This is Alex Cline interviewing John Lim, session number four, at his offices in downtown Los Angeles.
Cline
Good morning, again.
Lim
Good morning.
Cline
Thanks for sitting down and talking. First of all, I wanted to ask by way of taking advantage of the moment as much as I can, you just came back from a trip to South Korea, which was, from what you said last time to me, really about your being present at the inauguration of the new president there.
Lim
Well, that was just part of it, yes.
Cline
Oh, it was part of it. Okay. I wanted to ask you, related to that, because this will sort of play into some of the direction that we're headed today in this interview session, what your feelings were about that and particularly as they relate to where you feel the political situation may be right now in South Korea and where it may be headed, and that will, I think, play into how that might affect what's going on here with the Korean community and the development of Koreatown here in Los Angeles.
Lim
I think it's a widely held belief that the new administration headed by the newly elected president, M.B. Lee [Lee Myung-bak], is someone who desires a more favorable relationship with the U.S. He is also known to be much more conservative in the approach with respect to North Korea, probably more in line with the policies of the U.S., and just generally very pro business, pro free trade, friendly toward the western business investments, etc. So I think the Korean Americans generally embrace the new administration because they look upon that as a situation where they could benefit more both in terms of business and just other general interactions with Korea, because the Korean Americans are, after all, Americans first.
Cline
Right.
Lim
They have a relationship with Korea, and the general positive relations between the two nations is believed to have more of a fostering effect in their interaction with the Koreans in Korea.
Cline
Where do you think this might take the relationship with North Korea, which has gone through a lot of drama in the last few years?
Lim
That is a very difficult question, really. I mean, who knows? I think different scholars would say different things. But the hope is that it won't set back in the progress that has been made in terms of just creating more dialogue, but at the same time the message to North Korea is more clear in terms of what South Korea and the U.S. would be willing to do in developing the relationship with North Korea. More specifically it's about disarmament and closure of the nuclear plant as a condition precedent to providing more economic aid and having a diplomatic relationship. It's a tough one. It's a very difficult issue.
Cline
Yes, and certainly it has at least appeared that there were some diplomatic strides being made at the end of the [President William J.] Clinton administration here that were essentially completely scrapped when the administration changed over to the [George W.] Bush administration, but now we still hear reports of people like Jimmy Carter trying to broker communication and dialogue between these people, the big question that I want to ask you being how this all might go once we have a possible regime change right here in the United States, since we do have an election coming up, but what are your personal feelings about the situation with North Korea and particularly the topic of reunification?
Lim
Those are real heavy issues, Alex. You must be in the mood to just punish me here. [laughs]
Cline
No. You don't have to answer either, but some people have very--
Lim
I'm just a lawyer and I don't have the expertise to really give you an intelligent answer, but it's, I guess, hoped among the Americans at large that the new administration, whether it be the [John] McCain administration or [Barack H.] Obama/[Hillary Rodham] Clinton, as of today that is a, I guess the hottest topic in the country. You know, the role of the super delegates is going to perhaps shape the history of this nation.
Lim
But in any event, it is hoped that whoever is the successor would do a better job than the [George W.] Bush administration has done, but to really pick up on the progress that has been made in recent months or years, and I think the landscape is ideal in the sense that now you have a very collaborating partner in South Korea. I mean, in defense of Mr. Bush, I would say that it must have been rather difficult to foster a good strategy when the two nations were not on the same page.
Cline
Yes, exactly. The reason I asked that question was not to just kind of throw you in the deep end of the pool, but because so many of the people I've interviewed have very definite opinions about this particular issue and a fair amount of passion about it, as well, in many cases. So I figured I'd--
Lim
Well, I share the passion, but I can't say that I have a definite view on it, because it's really a work in progress right now, and I would question anybody who is so certain about these issues. I would question their wisdom. It's a moving target and the issues are very dynamic and you see little things that could mean a lot. Like there's talk about Eric Clapton going to North Korea to do a concert.
Cline
Really?
Lim
I mean, for a former musician like yourself and myself, okay, it's another concert, but politically speaking, it could have much grander or much bigger significance than one might think in ordinary context.
Cline
Totally. The New York Philharmonic just played there.
Lim
Right. That, of course, I think set the stage for this rock concert they're talking about.
Cline
Amazing. Yes. The health of totalitarian leaders also tends to play into these issues in a big unpredictable way, which is something we've just been seeing recently with Fidel Castro, for example, and there's a lot of speculation about that, as well.
Lim
Well, in Kim Jong-il's case, I think he's secretly passionate about western culture. Actually, not that much of a secret anymore. Everybody knows his love for cognac and movies and sports cars, you know, all of which is western stuff.
Cline
Yes.
Lim
So if he had it his way, he would want to rule the country with a strong fist, but play in the backyard of his country. [laughs] Or England.
Cline
Yes, right. Well, that's pretty amazing.
Cline
We left off last time talking about the riots here in 1992 and we talked a bit about the aftermath of that, the significance it had to the Korean American community here in Los Angeles and at large. One of the things I wanted to ask you about to follow up on that is what your assessment, after dealing so heavily with the legal issues, the pro bono work you did for the community, what your assessment was of the recovery after the riots. You mentioned that you didn't know, for example, how many people just had to kind of pack up and leave, but certainly a lot of people who had what could be called mom-and-pop businesses in other parts of Los Angeles were pretty much shut out, while others in the Koreatown area generally started to make a recovery and come back. What was your feeling about what you were seeing in terms of the recovery after the riots, and how much of that recovery do you think has been a factor in the continued emergence of Koreatown as a major cultural and economic force in the city?
Lim
Well, that's a twofold question. On the first one, I think it's a fair assessment to say that the Korean Americans demonstrated enormous resiliency in their recovery endeavor. Like I said before, I don't know how many of them actually came back to restore their business, but you didn't see news about suicides. So I think probably the Korean culture of working together to lend support to each other, not just within family groups, but within friend groups or church groups, really made it possible for them to get back on their feet.
Lim
I don't know if you know, but there's a very interesting financing, debt financing vehicle in Korean culture called kye. It's called kye. That's phonetically. It's called kye, and what that is is a group of people essentially putting a certain sum of money on a monthly basis in a pot and then on a lottery basis the sequence by which the funds would be taken is determined. So each of them would take the pot money as they come in. So for the ones that take early, with advancing money--no, I'm sorry, would be taking the money and the others would be advancing the money, and the ones that take later would be the ones, conversely, funding the debt financing structure. This is a kind of financing structure that is not practiced, as far as I know, in the United States, and this is widely available, even to this day, from what I know, I think practiced to a lesser extent with the 1.5, or probably not at all with the second generation, but still relatively utilized on a regular basis among the first generation for people who cannot otherwise get conventional financing. You know, they may not have the credit rating or they may not have the collateral or proof of repayment ability, but within the group, just based on this trust notion that they could get that kind of financing, which is what I think probably enabled many of these people to get back on their feet. This is an enormous advantage I think Korean Americans have, because I know a lot of my friends in the African American community have asked me at different times, "How is that the Koreans can come to the United States and open up the shop so quickly? Are these all very, very wealthy people coming to this country?" I tell them that, no, they're not wealthy. In fact, if they were wealthy, they'd have stayed in Korea.
Cline
Yes, yes. Interesting.
Lim
Many of them are not wealthy and they come with very limited capital, and the way they can buy the hamburger store or the ice cream shop or the dry cleaner business is that they go into this financing scheme that the bank wouldn't offer, because they don't have the collateral or the credit rating, and they pull together the capital to start a business. It comes from thousands of years of Korean history. So my good friends in the African American community say that's a brilliant idea, but they don't have--what they're saying to me is that that is not a system that can be tapped into in that community, which in a way it may be--which you hope that it wasn't the case, because what I think other ethnic communities could empower themselves from a business standpoint would be if they had easier access to money, capital.
Cline
Right. Yes. Yes, I'd heard about this a long time ago and it's an interesting combination of both what people always like to point out about one of the strengths of the Korean immigrant community, which is their entrepreneurial spirit, but in a nation which often defines the entrepreneurial spirit as being in line with sort of rugged individualism that we associate with the American psyche, this is obviously a very collectively-minded sharing-oriented way of looking at it that is very different culturally from what we are used to here.
Lim
A thought just came into my head as I was listening to you. I think one can describe this kye concept as a co-op micro finance. I mean, if I were to actually try to describe it to an economist. Because it's a micro finance, but not from an institutional level, but from a co-op basis. In other words, among the members of the co-op giving each other micro finance credit facility. That's what it is. It's an amazing concept when you think about it.
Cline
It is.
Lim
But it's also a very risky concept.
Cline
Sure.
Lim
Because I've heard so many people of having paid into this, but never got their money because somebody decided to drop out. So the reliability and accountability is so heavily dependent on the individual members of that co-op, that just the slightest error or loss of loyalty could cause significant harm.
Cline
Yes. Well, it takes a lot of trust. It's remarkable.
Lim
Yes, but apparently enough of them have succeeded to provide a lot of mom-and-pop stores in L.A. I'm not saying all of them went through this financing structure. The ones that were able to get loans from the community banks, I'm sure they got that. That would be the preferred mode of financing. But there are a lot of small shop owners that cannot get a loan from a conventional source.
Lim
Right. You've represented a lot of people in the business community here, involved in a lot of real estate transactions. How, if at all, did your client base change after the riots?
Lim
Well, I don't think--it changed a little bit in the sense that the client base got much more institutionalized, but I don't think it had anything to do with my involvement in the riots. It was just the natural progression of the firm getting larger.
Cline
Okay. How was it different?
Lim
Not a whole lot. I mean, generally I still represent the businesses that I represented then. Many of my clients go back pre-riot days. Of course, the clients that I got after the riots were in character similar to the clients I had before the riot. They're foreign companies that are coming in-bound to U.S., and they're major U.S. businesses that are owned by Korean Americans and they're also major U.S. Fortune 500 companies that for different reasons want minority lawyer representation. So it's that type of situation.
Cline
Interesting. Along with maybe not so much change in the type of client, what about the sorts of issues that you were having to contend with? Did any of that start to change or was it all just pretty much the same, just maybe a larger scale than before, as your firm grew and as the--
Lim
I think it's the latter.
Cline
Okay. So you talked a bit last time about how one of the positive outcomes of the riots afterwards was an increased sensitivity to different cultural points of view, different ethnic communities, especially the African American community. We started to see a younger generation of leadership in the Korean community. Can you think of any other ways, particularly after 1992, that the Korean American community here, business or otherwise, started to noticeably change? Certainly it continued to grow, but other than that, is there anything really marked or pronounced that you would say defined the community in terms of change?
Lim
Well, change definitely occurred. I'm not sure which of them or to what extent they were caused by the '92 riots. But in addition to the things that you mentioned, which actually is a regurgitation of what I mentioned, and maybe it's just part of that or an extension of that, I think that I began to see a lot more political activism and political voice. You hear a lot more political voice from the Korean community post riot. Again, it may be just a function of the community getting more mature and more assimilated into the American mainstream society.
Cline
How much, if at all, did there start to be interest and support for the concerns and endeavors of the Korean community by people outside the Korean community, non-Koreans? I'm asking this because certainly the Korean American community was presented in an unprecedented fashion after the riots here. Did this change the relationship of the community to the non-Korean community in any pronounced way that you can think of?
Lim
That's a real tough one for me, as well. I would like to think that I'm really in touch with the greater Korean American community, but to be perfectly frank, my interaction is somewhat limited to the legal/business community within the Korean community. But just from my general observation I would say that there has been a significant level of sympathy, support from the communities at large in the Greater Los Angeles area, probably from the mainstream America, as well, but that sentiment, I think, sort of dissipated rather quickly. You know, the outcries that were being manifested at that time and the people say, "Oh, we feel so terrible about the Korean Americans," or, "They shouldn't have to suffer like that," and all that, and the words of encouragement that came, I think were very nice, but I don't think they lasted very long. I think people forget very quickly. I mean, the Watts Riot, yes, it was horrific. I mean, it was crazy. But I think a lot of people forgot about it, and in fact, if you ask people on the street today, a lot of people don't even know about it.
Cline
Yes, for sure. Yes. Well, since we are working in the business community, particularly as Koreatown in the Korean American community and L.A. becomes even more developed, larger, and more economically influential, did you see a change in the types of people or companies who are investing in the area, in the community?
Lim
In the Korean community or the--
Cline
Money coming into the Korean community and Koreatown in particular, which has certainly been changing a lot in the last ten, fifteen years.
Lim
Clearly, there were bigger projects that were being undertaken and the inflow of capital were getting intensified. But, again, I'm not sure if there's a cause-and-effect relationship.
Cline
Yes. Well, ignoring that for the moment, just as we head more into, you know, through the nineties and into the present day, I guess, what do you see in terms of, if anything, in terms of different types of companies or entities investing in the area, in the businesses?
Lim
I think most of it was the same type of business, a lot of cars, tires, clothing, etc., but I began to notice that there were more bioengineering endeavors, some companies relating to stem cell. So the high-tech component, I think, definitely picked up. More Korean companies are now willing to finance projects in the United States because of what they see as an attraction stemming from the favorable currency exchange rate, favorable from their perspective.
Cline
Right.
Lim
And the trade surplus that they're enjoying, or I should say they have enjoyed, I don't know, with the continued currency exchange rate changes, the trade surplus might dissipate in time. Anyway, so I think there definitely has been greater infusion of capital by the Korean companies into the United States.
Cline
Was there any interest from investing and in getting involved by non-Korean companies or individuals, or is it pretty much still maintained within the Korean or Korean American [unclear]?
Lim
Well, no, actually the infusion, a lot of it is outside the Korean community. The clients that I represent are buying facilities. In the past they were just renting, they were leasing facilities, but they're buying facilities throughout the country, you know, Georgia, Alabama, even--yes, northern--east parts of the country like New Jersey, Ohio. I think that there is a greater willingness to speculate on the real estate than in the past. Also I think the fact that they're holding onto a lot of cash is probably a plus in making that decision.
Cline
There's currently a lot of development going on in Koreatown and its face is essentially changing very fast. Aside from the fact there is only a Koreatown in Los Angeles, when people think of these--to use a loaded term--sort of ghettoized ethnic neighborhoods, historically they usually think of a pretty small concentrated area, whereas I can speak from experience, people I know who come from out of the country or out of town, who come here, and when I'm taking them around and showing them L.A., and I since I don't tend to show them things like Hollywood Boulevard, I tend to show them different things, people are consistently completely amazed and utterly unprepared for the size of Koreatown as compared to similar communities that they're used to seeing. That said--I know this is a big question--but what is your take on the direction that Koreatown has been going in the last few years, and therefore, where do you think it's headed as a community? Because it's still a diverse community; it's not just Koreans by any stretch.
Lim
Right. Alex, that's okay, I mean, at least you're consistent with big questions. [Cline laughs.] I think that the first-generation Koreans that have sort of made it in the United States, achieving their American dreams of accumulated wealth vis--vis equity in a home, their stocks in community banks, what have you, have accumulated significant wealth. Many of them are holding net worth in excess of tens of millions of dollars and some of them over hundred millions of dollars. So because they know their community and they know their town, there's, I think, a great propensity to invest in an area that you feel comfortable with. So, with abundance of wealth that they've accumulated and with the desire to have a sustained wealth-accumulation landscape, which as you know is often real estate, I think there is still a very growing and increasing interest among the first generation to amass real estate and draw income stream from that. The first generation tend to be very apprehensive about the securities market, the bond market, and the whole concept of investing in stock is still relatively at a young stage for Koreans just because of the short history. Now, Korea, South Korea, is highly sophisticated when it comes to the financial market, but nevertheless, with the older folks there's, I think, a continuing apprehension in that regard. I think the older folks tend to take more comfort in real estate investment.
Lim
So with that as a background, what would the 1.5 and 2.0 [generation]s do? I think you'll see, at least this is my guess. It's not even an educated guess, it's sort of a wild guess, that the 1.5s will tend to follow the footsteps of the first generation when it comes to real estate, because they see it as an easy, safe route to go. It's already been demonstrated that wealth can be accumulated in this fashion and "I'll just follow my dad's footsteps," or something like that.
Lim
Second and third generations might be a bit different. I think that they're not just interested in wealth; they're interested in having fun, and real estate ownership just doesn't seem, quote, unquote, "sexy" enough for them. I think as the second and third generations become more assimilated and become truly more quote, unquote "Americans," the diversification, I think, will be increased and we will begin to see much more active trading, stock investment, and bond, and other types of investments, not just real estate. And I think they will be better informed, I should say, better informed when it comes to investment.
Lim
Now, what kind of a long-term effect would that have on the real estate? Perhaps the--this is really long-term, right?
Cline
Right.
Lim
Okay, this is really long-term, but the speed with which the equity has appreciated in real estate in the Korean community may not be sustained in that long period of time, because the interest may not necessarily be there, I think. I think the money will be better utilized, in the views of the second and third generation as they diversify their portfolio and invest in the mainstream. Okay, but that's, again it's just a guess.
Cline
Yes, sure. We've seen Koreatown go from your basic sort of start-up business in an area that was being not economically particularly notable, so there was opportunity there and there's still been a lot of that in the area. There's a lot of potential in that regard. A lot of the businesses now are starting to look a lot slicker, a lot more kind of trendy and attractive. A lot more people, I think, from outside the Korean community are coming to Koreatown to spend their time and money. I think for years the perception of a lot of people, if not most people, outside the Korean community was that Koreatown was a pretty insular place, mostly geared towards the community itself. Not a lot of English signage, for example. How much do you see in the way of change, or not, the Korean community as it's been developing, reaching out to communities outside their own community?
Lim
Oh, you can see that change already happening, right? A lot of the Korean restaurants are actually catering towards non-Koreans. There has been some effort by some entrepreneurs to try to franchise the Korean food business altogether, really with the view of making success in the mainstream. So clearly the businesses, I think, see the Korean community as a solid foundation, but to make it big, they understand that the market within the Korean community is limited and the mainstream market is much larger. I mean, an easy small example would be Forever 21, which is a multi-billion-dollar retail outlet in the country. When they started it, it was a small shop run by Koreans targeting probably low-income or mid-income Koreans and Hispanics. Now it's in every major mall in the country. So they went outside the Korean community knowing that the market's much bigger out there. But I think to a certain extent the reason the Korean businesses have adopted this notion of English and Korean signs and English on the menu and generally appearing to be more welcoming of the English-speaking people, ironically, I think it's not so much for the non-Koreans, but it was actually for the Korean Americans who can't read, because their second and third generations are not comfortable in the hardcore Korean setting. So to a certain extent they alter their business model to be a bit more Americanized, to be more appeasing, if you will, to the second- and third-generation Korean Americans. And in that process, I think that the non-Koreans, like the Chinese or the Filipinos or the white and blacks and what have you, have really found that going to a Korean business establishment doesn't feel as foreign as it had been in the past.
Cline
This steps us right into another one of my questions, which is--
Lim
A tough one, too?
Cline
Well, we'll see. [mutual laughter] The natural progression from generation to generation as they come here is that they become more assimilated, more, as you said, American, and I wanted to know what you were seeing regarding that generationally here in the Korean community, but particularly specifically from your own experience as it relates to your own family. What do you think the significance of this, as you just said, maybe discomfort with what you termed the hardcore Korean--encounter with the Korean cultural and traditional milieu is for those who are more assimilated, less hardcore Korean, and what are the implications of that for the Korean community as the generations progress?
Lim
Looking at the Japanese American community, we can learn a lot about what the Korean American community would look like fifty years from now. The sansei, or all the generations after the third generation, they have very strong cultural ties to the Japanese culture or Japanese community, but away from it, you wouldn't see them as anything but an American. [Telephone rings.]
Cline
Right. Wow, I hope this isn't an emergency. Hang on just a second. [Recorder off.]
Cline
That was who that was. Sorry about that.
Lim
No problem.
Cline
My apologies.
Lim
No problem.
Cline
You were talking about the Japanese community as a model for what we might see for the Korean community in the future.
Lim
Yes, I think that's where we're going to go to eventually. So as I was saying, you wouldn't see any of them being less of an American, but once they're in the--you know, if they're visiting their parents in J-town [Little Tokyo], they're not shy about being somebody of Japanese origin. So I suspect that that's what's going to happen, but the Korean community concentration I don't think will continue to grow at this pace as the assimilation becomes more widespread, because the Korean community is still comprised largely of immigrants. That's not the case in the Japanese American community.
Cline
Right, definitely. This obviously will also have an impact on whether [unclear] perceived as the traditions in the culture in the Korean community. With this in mind, how are you raising your own children?
Lim
Well, I want them to be enriched with the Korean culture, like I guess no different from Japanese American parents or Chinese American parents. We all want our kids to be a better person because of our heritage and to know the history and to have a cultural understanding and ideally to speak the language, but that's a real challenge. Unless you actually have an opportunity to use the language, it's very hard to keep it. My kids speak somewhat and I would say that their proficiency level is not as high as I would like them to be, but they get by. I think each of them have a desire to, at some point, become quite more proficient at it. But as far as the culture goes, I think they're very Korean in a Korean setting and I think they're very American in an American setting. There's no need to be a hybrid, you know? You go to a Korean setting and there's no reason to act like you don't know the Korean culture. If you know the Korean culture, you just fit right in. But you can't go to an interview at a major U.S. company and then sit and bow and do all the other stuff that you do as a Korean. You can't do that. So I've always stressed to my children that "You should be proud of your Korean heritage and proud that you're a Korean American, but you are an American and you're going to vote within this American political system, you're going to live here, you're going to raise your family here, unless, of course, you want to move somewhere else. As long as you're here, you're an American and you should respect our American culture, but don't get into a situation where you're something in between and you're not either. You're both."
Cline
Interesting. What about religion in this context? You come from a family where your father [Dong Sun Lim] was a minister.
Lim
Right.
Cline
I would have to think that religion was a major component of your family tradition. Here in L.A. the vast majority of Korean immigrants are Christians.
Lim
Are you sure of that?
Cline
That's what I--those are the numbers I've seen.
Lim
Is there some data on that? I'd like to see it.
Cline
Yes. I don't remember where I got it, it was so long ago, but it was a very different percentage from that in South Korea itself.
Lim
Yes, South Korea, I understand, is about 25 percent. That's what I heard many years ago.
Cline
That's even less than I saw, yes, because I think so much of the sponsorship of immigrants initially was through the churches here and so much of the facilitation of the immigration was through church connections, at least initially.
Lim
Also the role of the church in being a quasi community center for immigrants probably had something to do with that.
Cline
Right. Really the sociocultural center of the community. Where do you see that going in relation to, say, your own children and their generation?
Lim
Well, just speaking personally, I feel quite blessed that I am empowered with the faith that I have, but it's something that I treasure without wanting to force it upon my kids. So I've always shared my thoughts, but I've said, "I'm right and you're wrong." I don't think faith works that way. So I give them all the room in the world to make their own choice. I don't even try to manipulate it into a direction that I want them to go, which is what a lot of parents do.
Cline
Oh yes.
Lim
I'm not quite sure where they stand, but I think, being college kids, and one actually is post college, you know they're going through that process of intellectual stimulation and questioning and critical thinking and all that good stuff, so I think that's fine. I just see it as a wonderful process, and whatever they ultimately decide is their faith, literally.
Lim
For the community at large, you know, I would hate to make any sort of projections in this area, because I certainly don't have the expertise or the credentials to speak on it, but I just don't think that, again, as the immigration history gets longer and as the community becomes more assimilated to the mainstream community, the need for the church to be something other than a spiritual post will necessarily continue to be at that intense level. Right now it's still high.
Cline
Yes, very high.
Lim
But I would have to think that the more hardcore church, in the traditional sense, will continue to draw congregation members, but the ones that are more of a community center for people to come together. I mean, I'm not knocking that, it's certainly a valuable function, but I just don't think that's going to be necessarily there thirty, fifty years from now.
Cline
This, in some way, I think, plays into your relationship with your father. The way you've described it in these interviews, your father, who, aside from being a figure of spiritual authority, also culturally would be seen as potentially quite the strong figure in the family, and yet what you've described is somebody who, I think, showed a lot of faith in your nature and let you be yourself and explore things the way you wanted to, despite what might have been his own expectations or his own desires, something I would think is fairly unusual in any culture. How is your relationship with your father today, certainly now that you're, obviously, quite successful in your chosen field, a father yourself? How do you see his influence in your life?
Lim
The relationship I have with my father today is as good, if not better, than it was, let's say, thirty, forty years ago. As I get older, I think my level of appreciation for his wisdom increases, as well. Yes, he was a strong figure, but he was also a very soft man. The contrasting style in him is what made, I think, him very attractive. He is a beautiful man because of that. He knows when to be strong and when to be weak, and too many of us don't know when we need to be weak.
Cline
Interesting. Or maybe meek would be a good Christian term.
Lim
Well, you could say meek, but I mean, meek--I don't mean weak in a negative sense. Weak in a sense that you don't have to demonstrate power and necessarily overpower everyone that you meet to be a good person.
Lim
Anyway, my relationship with my father is quite unique in that I've always seen him as sort of a--not just my father, but father to a lot, a lot of people, literally tens of thousands of people, and they come up to tell me, "We think of him as our dad, too." So when I was a kid I didn't quite like that, because, gee, why do I have to share my dad with so many other strangers? But now I obviously very much embrace that notion. I think it's a good thing that he has served as that father for so many people, assuming that he was a positive impact, and I have no reason to think that he was not.
Cline
In your work here, you pretty much have a first-hand view of the role that the Korean community is playing economically in terms of business and, as you said, investment in Los Angeles as a city, and certainly in a community that has changed dramatically because of the Korean community's presence and investment in it, in part of the city, but all over the city. How do you assess the contribution economically of the Korean immigrant community to this city? How would you describe that?
Lim
I don't have figures with me.
Cline
Yes, I'm not looking for figures.
Lim
And I'm obviously very partial.
Cline
Yes.
Lim
I would say the Korean Americans have enormous positive impact to the economy of the L.A. at large. I would love to see some sort of a study done on it at some point.
Cline
Yes.
Lim
But just in every respect, employment base, sales tax, property tax, development, just enormous. I think it's really a shame that we don't have a Korean American City Council member of, what, fifteen?
Cline
Yes. Yes, you're headed right into my next question there.
Lim
Yes, because the Korean Americans, in my view, are almost the backbone of the city of L.A. Now, again, I remind you that I am partial and I don't have the economic data.
Cline
Right. What do you see as some of the biggest--this is obviously, you know, you mentioned the big contribution. What do you see as some of the biggest challenges or obstacles facing the Korean American community at this point?
Lim
Hmm. I just don't see a whole lot. I mean, that's really--I mean, just to sound like you are objective, you want to say something about it.
Cline
Yes, right. Right.
Lim
But it must be that I'm either too partial or I'm so blind to it, I just don't see a whole lot of negative or challenges here. We don't have a huge subprime situation here. Obviously, the business will be affected by the subprime to a certain extent. There are banks that may have overextended credit, but all of that is just ordinary course of business.
Cline
Yes, right.
Lim
I don't see a whole lot of negative going on. Again, as I said earlier, the thing that is rather unsettling is why the Korean Americans can't come together with some sort of political force.
Cline
Right. That's what I was going to ask you next.
Lim
That's troubling to me, but your question was more about economics. I don't see a whole lot of downside there.
Cline
I guess I wasn't really asking specifically about only economics, but it used to be, for example, that aside from political representation, one of the challenges often named in relation to the Korean community was just the issue of language, still. As the generations progress, clearly this becomes less of an issue.
Lim
I don't think that was necessarily a huge impediment in the Korean community, because you can go to K-town and speak to anybody in Korean. You don't have to speak a word of English and get by.
Cline
Right. But I guess in terms of assimilation, then it becomes an issue.
Lim
Well, that's just going to be a natural progression.
Cline
Right, exactly.
Lim
Their children will assimilate.
Cline
Right.
Lim
The mom and dads will have their shop in K-town and that's quite okay.
Cline
Do you think--well, let me think of how to phrase this. How much do you think Koreatown is continuing to be an attractive place that draws both immigrants and tourists, for example?
Lim
Well, I think there are a lot of interesting eateries around.
Cline
Yes. There's a lot of change in housing, for example.
Lim
Right, and there's more night entertainment than any other place in L.A. So I would guess that it would continue to attract non-Koreans or visitors, but in my view--and I've been saying this for the last twenty-some years--there's a major deficiency in not having a stage or landscape that stands out as really the gateway from Koreatown. In other words, there's no landmark that we could point to and say, "You see that? That's why it's called K-town." I've been wanting to see some developer with the foresight to do something that is extremely ethnic and culturally rich that is very distinctively Korean that would be a reason by itself for the visitors to want to go see this monument or this cultural piece. So I've been wanting to see something that I would call a Korean village, bring the architecture from Korea, you know, the ones that are 500,000 years old type of architecture, stores, shops, and the facade. The inside, of course, you'll have flush toilets and refrigerators and the hood to suck the smoke out. But make something that really is a historical, or at least has a historical flavor. I mean, it's obviously a modern structure, but if we had that, I don't know the exact number of L.A. tourism, but, god, can you imagine, every tour guide is going to want to stop by with his or her busload of people.
Cline
Right.
Lim
But, you know, I'm not a developer. I'm a real estate lawyer. If I were a developer, that's what I would do, and I've told every developer client of mine and Korean American developer that are not clients of mine urging them to do it. It hasn't happened yet.
Cline
And of course the boundaries of Koreatown continue to expand and become more blurred.
Lim
Frankly, something like that is such a destination project that virtually anywhere in the proximity to Koreatown would draw people like crazy.
Cline
Yes.
Lim
And moreover, it would really set the stage for a lot of cultural pride among the young people.
Cline
Do you think because of, for example, the language component that you mentioned, you can be in Koreatown and not have to speak English, and there are Korean businesses, Korean restaurants, how much do you think that Koreatown will continue to be a place where particularly first-generation or visiting Koreans will want to spend their time? This is in relation to what we were seeing as a definite change in the type of housing being built and offered in the Koreatown area. For a community that largely often used Koreatown as an initial sort of staging area before moving out to the suburbs, how much do you think--therefore, I guess my question is, do you think Koreatown will continue to be a draw to the Korean community?
Lim
I think it will continue because of the convenience factor. There definitely is a reemergence right now of the well-to-do Korean Americans who have maybe gone out to the [San Fernando] Valley to raise their kids, wanting to come back to K-town because of the convenience factor. I mean, there's the restaurants and the spas and whatever right here. They don't have to worry about their school districts anymore, so they're coming back to K-town to be close to the places that they go on a regular basis. But the traffic being what it is, I mean, can you imagine them wanting to drive an hour just to get lunch down in K-town? Forget that. I mean, we don't need to be on the road; we'll just live in K-town. So some of the luxury units are being marketed to the older empty-nester couples.
Cline
Yes, exactly. I mentioned the boundaries of Koreatown. I know this is another opinion question, but how much do you think those boundaries will continue to expand, or do you think they will become, by necessity, more contained as the generations progress and things kind of maybe decentralize a bit more?
Lim
I think the expansion mode has slowed down quite a bit, from what I can sense. Probably it's also a function of just economics.
Cline
Right.
Lim
But it's becoming much better defined than it was ten years ago, and at this point there's really not a whole lot of new areas that they can expand into within the city of L.A., but the expansion that I'm sort of forecasting, not that I have a crystal ball, but would be different pockets of other suburb areas, new Koreatowns will emerge in the way that may be Monterey Hills--is that correct?
Cline
Monterey Park.
Lim
Monterey Park, sorry. Monterey Park has become--
Cline
Right, suburban Chinatown. Yes.
Lim
Monterey Park, sorry. Monterey Park has become Chinatown number two. In fact, it's much bigger than the Chinatown number one.
Cline
Oh, yes, and old Chinatown is mostly Vietnamese now.
Lim
Right. So I don't know if that transformation or a comparable transformation will take place with Koreatown, but I think we will see new K-towns in different areas, like Buena Park, Irvine.
Cline
Or Fullerton.
Lim
Or Sherman Oaks or Encino area. Where I live, there's no evidence that it will ever become that way, but I certainly wouldn't mind seeing at least a small shopping center with a concentration of Korean restaurants in the Calabasas area, but--
Cline
Yes. What do you come to Koreatown for, since you live out in that part of the world, when you want something?
Lim
You know, frankly, in my case it's quite limited to mostly just for eatery or to meet clients for dinner or bring my kids out for some Korean noodles, simple food but unique Korean food. Fascinating, Korean food is fascinating.
Cline
Yes. How much of that does your family eat at home, if any?
Lim
Well, we don't eat Korean food that regularly at home. In fact, one of the things that we talk about is how Korean food is so difficult and time-consuming to make, there's no point in doing that at home when you can go to a restaurant and actually support the restaurant's business by paying a modest tab. It's great food and it's not that expensive, comparatively speaking. I mean, it's not cheap either, but it's a very labor-intensive preparation process, which I think can be left to people who want to make money, and go ahead and support them. So we--I would say maybe once a week.
Cline
As time has gone on and your business is continuing to thrive and you're raising your family, for example, you were, as a younger man, interested in playing music. What are some of your interests now, now that you're at this stage of your life? Are you still interested in music?
Lim
This is the first time you've asked me an easy question. [mutual laughter]
Cline
I have to balance it a little bit.
Lim
I play some golf, not that often, but from time to time. I'm an avid skier, but that has time constraints. I try to get as much skiing done during the ski season, and then during the non-ski season I try to play some golf and exercise a bit. But I became an avid skier not too long ago, about five and a half, six years ago. Prior to that, I was just a once-in-a-blue-moon-type of skier, but I just realized after like twenty years of practicing law, that my body wasn't getting any younger, although I was young at heart, and that I needed to really be engaging in more rigorous physical exercise. I'm not the kind of person who enjoys lifting weights in the weight room. So I figured I'd do something crazy and hit the slopes, and it became really a serious habit.
Cline
Do you still enjoy music? Do you follow any of that anymore?
Lim
I listen to music and I enjoy listening to music and I play guitar, my acoustic guitar, once in a while when no one's around, because I don't want to torture anybody. [mutual laughter] I wish I had the time to pick up some new instruments. I know it sounds crazy, but I always wanted to learn how to play cello, but I don't know if I'll ever get around to it, because that's not an easy instrument to learn.
Cline
No, but the beginner's mind is always a great experience, as we get older especially, and you don't want to get too calcified.
Lim
Right.
Cline
Moving into more difficult and general questions, we talked about how you are raising your children. One of the things that you said, I think very specifically and interestingly, was that you really wanted your children not to feel sort of trapped or confused between identities, but to be both, essentially Korean and American. How do you view yourself in light of that, and therefore, what does it mean to you to be Korean American at this point?
Lim
Well, exactly that. I am Korean by origin and an American legally and also in my way of life, but I tap into the Korean culture whenever I need to, and it's quite fun that way. I think the identity crisis that we see from time to time among the younger Korean American kids stem from the fact that they grew up having this ambivalence about who they want to be, because their parents said, "You have to be a Korean," but they knew that if they stay Korean, that they wouldn't succeed in the western mainstream society. So some of them felt like, "Well, if I became too American, am I betraying my parents or am I betraying my culture?" I think that's a terrible way to raise kids. I think the parents should encourage them to be Americans, because they are. But at the same time, you know, you have to--you should enjoy, you have to enjoy your advantage. Why not enjoy your advantage? You'd be a fool not to enjoy your advantage and to be proud of their Korean origin and to really learn as much as you can about it. That way you can be Korean when you want to be, you can be an American when you want to be. Actually, it's slightly different. You don't have to be an American, because you're an American anyway. It's by default.
Cline
Right. Right.
Lim
It's when you hit that "select" button to be a Korean, that's the Korean mode that you're operating. But who are you anyway? Of course you're an American. The fact that you have a Korean origin doesn't make you any less of an American, no less than an Italian American or a German American, so why do we make a huge issue out of this when it comes to Koreans? I think it's because of this short history, the immigration history, but that will not be an issue several generations down the road.
Cline
Although, of course, racially you look different from the mainstream, the way people think of--you know, versus you mentioned Italians or Germans.
Lim
Sure. Sure, but that appearance issue is an issue because we are living in 2008. I really don't think it's going to be an issue--well, hopefully, I mean, it will be less of an issue, let's put it that way. I'm not insensitive to racial tensions and the importance of diversity. All I'm saying is that we put too much weight on this appearance factor, but Americans are not defined by our appearance, and if we went with that, where would our presidential candidate Barack Obama stand?
Cline
Right. Right.
Lim
He is in every aspect as American as anyone can be, but he's got this interesting name. Right?
Cline
Right.
Lim
And he's not white. But does that make him less of an American actually, or not? And I think the voters have shown that, which is actually amazing. With a name like Barack Hussein Obama, you can still be the leading candidate on the DNC [Democratic National Convention].
Cline
Right. Wow. Yes. In your case, knowing the Korean language seems like quite a gateway into that fluidity. What is your view as to the importance of that in maintaining--to be able to push that select button, as you said, to be more fluid in the Korean side of one's culture?
Lim
What is the what? I'm sorry.
Cline
The language, how much of a factor do you think that--
Lim
Language, how much of a factor is it?
Cline
Retaining the language, how much of a factor do you think that is in retaining that fluidity?
Lim
Oh, no question it's huge. I think culture is to a large extent defined by understanding the language. It's very huge, I think.
Cline
Have your children been to South Korean much?
Lim
Yes, yes. Oh yes, we've taken them, and are always willing to send them when they want to go.
Cline
How do they like it?
Lim
They have mixed reactions, to be honest. By and large, they enjoy the food and they enjoy the sightseeing and things of that sort, but they have their challenges in terms of interacting with local Korean kids, because they're in a different world. But I think that's a great experience, I mean, to understand and interact with people from a different culture. The tough part for them is that they're expected to know the Korean culture, when in fact they don't, and that's what, I think, so disheartening for them and that's the apprehension that they have coming from that, because they wish they did know, but they don't. I think that's kind of sort of a confusing factor for them.
Cline
We started the interview talking a little bit about the current situation in South Korea, and you've been able to travel to South Korea a lot during your career as a lawyer. Where do you see South Korea now, and particularly in relation to the Korean community here that's been here for many years? How do you view that relationship between the community here, which is now essentially American, and the homeland, which has evolved in its own direction, a different direction perhaps from the community that's been here for a number of years?
Lim
Well, as I said, as the current administration appears to be more proactive in fostering a positive relationship with the U.S., I think that inevitably will have a spillover effect to the Korean Americans here. Just an example, the current administration is pushing to have even middle school and primary school kids be taught English.
Cline
Oh, wow.
Lim
And that in some institutions maybe English only would be a good thing.
Cline
Like an immersion thing.
Lim
And the vision behind that, or I should say the rationale behind that vision is that to become an economic super house in the way maybe Japan has become, and not that Japanese have adopted this model, but--
Cline
Right, they haven't.
Lim
--with very limited resources, it's a country of limited means in that regard, the administration believes that its biggest strength is in the people and that the government, thus, should empower the future leaders and the future businesspeople and enhance their capabilities linguistically, and what better language is there in the world that can command business proficiency than English?
Cline
Right.
Lim
And that was sort of the rationale that I picked up. So with that as a background, what does that mean to the Korean Americans here? Well, I think naturally that would open up some opportunities for the Korean Americans. Not the first generation, not even the 1.5, especially the third and fourth generations who were otherwise shut away as having been sold out to the white world, are now suddenly the stars that they want to recruit and have onboard on their ship. So I think that's an interesting transition that we may be seeing in the near future.
Cline
Certainly since you came here, South Korea has risen quite a bit as an economic force, not just in Asia, but in the world. First, how much significance has that had for you just in your life and your business?
Cline
Oh, huge. Huge. I remember when I first came here in '67, when the kids in my neighborhood asked me where I was from, I told them I was from Korea, and really none of them knew where Korea was. I may have said this in our first interview, but they were just very amused that a country like Korea existed, notwithstanding the fact that the U.S. was involved in the Korean War from 1950 to '53. But as our mother country acquired greater respect around the world, obviously the Korean Americans here feel like they're more respected.
Cline
Yes, right. There's certainly a lot of conjecture about the role that China's ultimately going to play economically, not only in Asia, but in the world, as well as a lot of concern among Japanese about how they are going to be able to ultimately maintain their economic strength, particularly in light of their immigration policy and their dwindling birthrate, for example. What do you think the ultimate aspirations economically for South Korea are going to be? Actually, my real question is how much of an impact do you think that status is going to have on the Korean Americans here, right here in Los Angeles?
Lim
The impact on the Korean Americans will depend largely upon, at least with respect to that topic, largely upon how effectively South Korea plays the card with China, I believe. This is also a big strategic point of the new administration, and that is that South Korea must be more willing to work with China, as opposed to try to compete against it.
Cline
Yes, since China has such a close tie with North Korea, yes.
Lim
Right, and Korea has its economic advantages over China when it comes to technology. China has a huge labor force and they have abundance of land and they have all the deregulation landscape where they can sort of contaminate their environment like crazy and be okay with it, whereas Korea is not like that at all. There's very strong environmental protection regulations in place. Now, that almost sounds like, "Let's go spoil the backyard of somebody else," but I think it's a supply-and-demand issue and the way the Korean businesses are looking at it is, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. We have what they need from us and they have what we need from them. So I suspect that we'll see an increased level of collaboration and Korea trying to sort of exploit the growth of China to its own advantage.
Cline
With the rise in respect for the Korean American community and certainly the increased level of awareness for the Korean American community here, how do you view the relationship not only between the Korean community with the dominant culture, which is sort of the white European culture, but with other Asian communities that exist, that co-exist here in Los Angeles, which, of course, has a very high number of Asian immigrants, generally speaking? What's the relationship now between the Korean community and their Asian neighbors?
Lim
I think for the longest time I've always sensed that it was some sort of a Chinese wall. That's an ironic phrase to use, but between different Asian communities. But in the recent years or so, maybe ten years or so, I'm beginning to see more and more people crossing the line, so to speak, and creating interaction, especially the interracial marriage, I think is probably helping that. So, yes, I'm all for it. At our firm, as an example, we've always believed that a business should be diversified and be reflective of the composition of what L.A. truly is. So the idea of having different ethnicity within the firm is a great concept, I think. It just strengthens us. I don't think diversity is something that we should just tolerate; diversity is something that makes us better in so many respects and really makes us stronger and smarter.
Lim
So to go back to your question, I'd like to see the Korean American communities reach out to, like, the Chinese American community, the Japanese American community, and really collaborate and have collective power, especially in the political arena. And I see organizations that are beginning to do that. A great example, probably the best example that I can think of is an organization called Asian Pacific American Legal Center, headed by Stewart Kwoh, and that is the civil rights voice for Asian Americans of not only Los Angeles, but of the whole country. If you look at that organization, it's across the board. In fact, they have Korean Americans, Chinese Americans, Japanese Americans, Filipino Americans, you name it, and they work together so well, tremendous cooperation and collaboration there. So I hope that we can see more and more of that so that we find more reasons to be on the same page, find more reasons to join effort for a common goal, than to spend more time and energy finding differences and thus we should be different or in different camps. When we unite like that for common causes, clearly we would be a stronger voice and this, again, takes us back to the political voice issue. And we can make a difference. I mean, just like the way that Latin American voice, political voice, is making a difference in Texas, apparently, for Hillary Clinton, right?
Cline
Yes, right.
Lim
So as you know, in the political platform it's sometimes the difference of 2 percent or 1 percent is what changes it. We know that from Ford.
Cline
Right.
Lim
So the Asians can have a very, very critical pivotal role, but right now we're all over the map. We don't have strong leadership. Hopefully that will change, too.
Cline
Yes, have to overcome some of those old historical points of view or prejudices.
Lim
I think the proper perspective would be, "Hey, I'm an American." Then you go to the next layer, "I'm an Asian American," and you want to go one more layer beyond that, "I'm a Korean American," as opposed to, I think a lot of first-generation Koreans, "I'm Korean. Okay, you want to call me Korean American, fine. You want to put me in this Asian American pool?" "Gee." Reluctantly, "Okay. Well, when it comes to MediCal or Medicaid or maybe even welfare, I'm an American, yes." That, I'm sorry, I do understand that, I respect that, I don't fault them for it, but it's not something that I wish to see be a prevalent thinking. I would rather see the former than the latter.
Cline
Yes, interesting. With regard to, you mentioned interracial marriage, something I was going to ask you about. One of the things that frequently does happen when people integrate is their children marry outside not only their culture, but their race. What are your feelings about that, Dad? [laughs]
Lim
First of all, Dad doesn't have a choice. So that itself makes this issue almost moot. If I want to get really opinionated about it, I can tell you, frankly, that I have no qualms about my kids marrying non-Koreans. So in that sense people will say, "Oh, that's guy very Americanized." I don't see that as being really an Americanized or not Americanized issue. I see it as being an issue more of being pragmatic and being wise versus being stubborn and being stupid. So what do I want to be? No-brainer.
Cline
Wow. We're heading toward the homestretch here. You're successful in business, you're a Korean American, you live in L.A. L.A. is a place that is unique in the number of Korean American immigrants and their contribution economically and otherwise to the city. What do you think that the Korean immigrant can bring to Los Angeles, as a city, beyond entrepreneurial spirit, economic growth, investment, something that you think is particularly and uniquely Korean that does make Los Angeles therefore a unique place?
Lim
I don't know if these reasons would be sufficient to make them uniquely Korean or to help Los Angeles be more a unique city, but aside from all the things that you mentioned, I think that Koreans bring very, very good work ethics, so they're working hard at their jobs and their businesses, and are a great example to the rest of the lazy L.A. folks. [mutual laughter] I know that's a cynical remark. And also the emphasis on education in addition to the work ethics. The emphasis on education I think is very unique. I mean, I think the Jewish Americans would say that it's not that unique to them, because they're the same way. And the effort and the hard-working attitude of the Korean American kids in school, although I would question whether that's actually a good thing in the long run. But anyway, in any event, it is what it is, and I think that empowers L.A. because you've got a lot of students that are bright. That's something to brag about as a city, right?
Cline
Yes.
Lim
So, again, I'm not sure how unique that is to Koreans, but I see that Koreans are--again I'm very partial--but model immigrants in every sense of the word. They're hard-working; they're smart; they can pull capital together; and most of them are very honest and they educate their family; they stay away from crime; all those good things. Of course, we have our share of the domestic violence and drunk drivers, but by and large, I think Koreans are a very positive factor in L.A. and a major contributor to L.A.'s economy.
Cline
How much has been being a Korean immigrant actually been an asset to your success as a business lawyer?
Lim
Well, you know, a true response would have to be one that compares with what it would be like to be a non-Korean American, but just without that comparison, and from my subjective assessment I would have to say that it's been good for me. I think it's an empowering position to have.
Cline
Yes, and it seems create a lot of opportunity for a lot of people, something that's still going on. Is there anything we have not talked about that you would like to bring up or talk about or say?
Lim
Well, I think we covered a lot of--I mean, if I could make a plea with the Korean Americans in L.A., or, for that matter, Korean Americans in the United States at large, that we try to adopt the frame of mind that is more inclusive of other ethnic groups and really make a genuine effort to assimilate, to be more truly American, and not to perceive that as being someone betraying his own country, because it's not. And when we want to let our wallet do the talking, that we go beyond just the Korean Americans. I appreciate the fact that Korean Americans would like to be generous to the Korean American community, folks who are the Korean American organization, and that's understandable. I mean, in Korean old sayings, there's a saying that says that your arm bends inward, not outward. Sure, the natural inclination is to want to support Korean organizations or organizations run by Korean Americans, but my plea would be that we look beyond that at some point and that we really make a genuine effort to work toward a better society for all and not just a better society for Korean Americans. I'd like to see that happen.
Lim
I mean, as an example, our firm started up a scholarship foundation some years ago and we give to various different ethnic organizations, not limited to Korean Americans. But from my take, just very limited exposure, so I could be dead wrong, but Koreans give to churches, which is fine, I mean, it's based on their faith, but it's always the Korean American church, community organizations, always the Korean American organization. My hope is that we can go beyond that.
Cline
Some of those Korean American organizations, and I assume businesses, as well, have also extended their level of concern and success to the community around them, which includes a whole lot of non-Koreans.
Lim
Absolutely.
Cline
You see more of that happening as--
Lim
And that is the right direction to go. I mean, it shouldn't be about drawing boundaries. It should be about being inclusive and really extending benefits to all. To all, not based upon racial categories. So you sort of invited me, so I take this opportunity to make that pitch to whoever may be listening to this years from now, and particularly to the Korean Americans, because I am one of them. Maybe I can say that and get away with it.
Cline
Great. I just want to end by updating your--you mentioned your family a little bit, just if you could update us on where things are at with your family now, how old everyone is, what they're doing.
Lim
My wife is fifty years old and she's a wannabe LPGA [Ladies Professional Golf Association] player. No, I'm kidding. Only in her dreams. She plays golf and she enjoys golf. We're pretty much done raising kids.
Cline
And she put her own career aside, as I recall.
Lim
She did. She was an electrical engineer about nineteen, twenty years ago and became a stay-at-home mom, calling herself a domestic engineer.
Lim
My first child, Jonathan [Lim], is a naval officer, submariner, stationed, as of today, stationed in Hawaii. I dropped him off at the airport today.
Cline
Nice.
Lim
Yes. Yes, he was making a transition from Connecticut to Pearl Harbor.
Cline
That's big.
Lim
Yes. He started the training program a little less than two years ago right after graduating from UCSD [University of California, San Diego].
Lim
My middle child, Stephanie [Lim], just turned twenty-one two weeks ago, I want to say, February 25. I was in Korea attending the inauguration that day, so it was the first time I had missed a major birthday for my child. She's an international relations major there, a junior. She says she's thinking about going to law school.
Lim
My youngest, Janis [Lim], is nineteen. She will turn twenty this year. She's a sophomore at Pierce College. She apparently will make a move to one of the UC schools and probably end up at UCLA. She hasn't decided on her career yet, as of this moment, but I think she's secretly thinking about law.
Cline
Oh, wow.
Lim
Yes. I don't know if I should be happy for it or sad for it. No, I'm kidding. I think it's a great profession if you have the right mindset for it. As a matter of fact, I just spoke at UCSD a couple of nights ago about a legal career. I think it's a great profession. I remember reading an article in the [Los Angeles] Daily Journal some years ago about the fact that lawyers who were surveyed as to whether they would do it again if they had a chance to do it again. Fifty percent said no. So I'm in the other 50 percent.
Cline
Koreans are famous for stressing education sometimes in the most hands-on sort of way, and you already described, I think, your parenting style as being different from that.
Lim
Oh, very hands-off. In a way I'm probably very unusual, very exceptional, not necessarily in a positive way, my wife might say. I'm not a dad who is big on kids getting diplomas from big schools for the sake of that. I mean, if they want to go to Harvard [University], god, I won't stop them. That's fine. I mean, I applaud that. I applaud people who attend and achieve. But I have more of a problem with overachievers for the sake of overachieving or sometimes because of their parents. It's really a tragic thing, I think. I think I would rather see my kids get a good education anywhere--it doesn't have to be a big-name school--and really enjoy themselves and then find a purpose in life and be motivated to pursue that in him or her own clock or time and own terms. You know what I'm saying?
Cline
Yes.
Lim
So that they feel like whatever they achieve is their own achievement, not a product of my dad's influence or force or undue influence. That's more important, because due influence might be positive.
Cline
Right.
Lim
So, yes. I'm not at all ashamed about the fact that my kids didn't go to Yale [University]. I'm not. I'm very proud of what they are doing and they're doing on their own. Now, if any of them end up at Yale for grad school, that's fine, too, but it would be because of what they wanted to do. It won't be because I pushed them that way.
Cline
Right. It seems like you were given a certain amount of that sort of space, as well.
Lim
Oh, absolutely, yes.
Cline
There's a cliche that Korean immigrants they want their kids to be one of three things: doctor, lawyer, or an engineer.
Lim
And go to Harvard, too, on top of that.
Cline
Right. But I mean, but you weren't pushed in that way and here you are, you're a successful lawyer. I think that speaks volumes, because I think you're clearly someone who's here because you want to be and because you like what you're doing.
Lim
Well, I appreciate that comment. Absolutely.
Cline
We can transmit that to our children if we allow ourselves to step back.
Lim
You know, you see too many sad stories that come out of the undue pressure that parents put on them. Not too long ago I remember reading in the paper about a young lady who was a star by her own right in high school, applied to Stanford [University], didn't get in, but she pretended like she was attending Stanford for years, and then ultimately got caught because she wanted to enroll in the Stanford ROTC [Reserve Officers Training Corps] program.
Cline
Wow.
Lim
That's really sad.
Cline
And all the stuff that hit the news about, let's say, padded, if not fictionalized, resumes in South Korea, for example, too.
Lim
That too. There's just too much of that going on. I think that if we, as parents, not as Korean American parents, I mean parents across the board, would just focus more on instilling in the minds of our kids good character, good value system, and the desire to pursue their happiness, hopefully from all that, formulate their own motivation level that is sufficient to get to the point where they want to get to. I think that's really the essence of the meaning of success.
Lim
So I kind of define that as the process of narrowing the gap between your goal and the effort level to support those goals. Another way of saying that is that people who have these grand visions about where they want to be, but make very little effort to get there, to me is failure, even if they, by objective standard, have achieved a lot. Conversely, somebody who sets realistic goals and works really, really hard to be there so the gap between the two is very minimal, I think that's a true success.
Cline
Is your father proud of how you turned out, after all that wacky--
Lim
Yes, I think he is. I think he is. You know, Asian dads are not very expressive, but he's much more expressive than any other dads I know, but he's definitely not as expressive as me. But in that sense, maybe I'm more Americanized.
Cline
It's a fascinating thing. Anything else?
Lim
No, that's it. I mean, why did we get into all of this anyway?
Cline
It's all related.
Lim
Is it?
Cline
Yes.
Lim
Okay. All right, if you say so.
Cline
Thank you very much. I think we've hit the proverbial end of the line here.
Lim
Excellent. I enjoyed it myself.
Cline
Good. We thank you very much for taking the time out of your busy schedule to sit down and participate in this interview, so thank you very much.
Lim
You're welcome. It's been my pleasure. [End of interview]


Date:
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