Interview of Samuel Lunden

1. Transcript

1.1. TAPE NUMBER: I, SIDE ONE
APRIL 20, 1987

VALENTINE: Mr. Lunden, where and when were you born?

LUNDEN: I was born in [the neighborhood of] Austin in Chicago, Illinois, on July 14, 1897.

VALENTINE: Tell me something about your parents.

LUNDEN: I am a first-generation American. My parents were born in Sweden in the Uppsala area, about forty miles north of Stockholm. My father's name was Albert Axel Lunden, born on July 5, 1860, and died in 1931 at the age of seventy-one in Pasadena, California. My mother was Christina Eugenia Erickson, born on November 5, 1861, and died in 1942 at the age of eighty-one in Pasadena, California. Both were born in the Uppsala area but in different suburbs. My father came to the United States in 1890. The Swedish spelling of the name was L-U-N-D-I-N. Dad changed it when he came to America because he found that the e sounded like i and the i sounded like e. My mother came to the United States in 1893, and her maiden name, Erickson, was spelled in Sweden E-R-I-K-S-S-O-N. They were married in Elgin, Illinois, in 1893. My grandfather, Eric Lundin, was born in 1812. He was a tailor. My great-grandfather was also a tailor. They were in the Uppsala region. My grandfather on my mother's side was Jan Eric Eriksson, a farmer, born in 1825, also in the Uppsala region. It would seem that going back at least six generations, they were all farmers. In Sweden the government owned most of the land and leased it to the farmers. It was about 1915 when my cousin Carl John Erickson called me from Chicago and asked if we should renew the family lease on the old farm in Sweden. We agreed not to. It was in the following way that the farmers worked: Some of the six generations owned the farm itself but not the land, and others simply worked on the farm. Some of them until they could afford to have a farm of their own. The Lunden family included the oldest, my brother Albert Carl; then myself, Samuel Eugene; my brother Edgar Daniel; my sister Signe Marie; and my brother Clarence David, the youngest.

VALENTINE: What did your father do for a living in Illinois?

LUNDEN: My father had been in the army in Sweden for two years, as generally required, and at the termination of his service he studied cabinetwork, probably night school, and was a very able cabinetmaker according to his certificates of approbation. When he came to this country he started as a carpenter and later became a contractor-builder. My oldest memory was this: that we moved to Oak Park from Austin, Chicago, after my father had built a three-story apartment house, which was to be our home until 1907. It was built on Humphrey Avenue in Oak Park, a fairly nice residential street, although the sidewalks at that time were wooden plank sidewalks. Some of the streets were paved with wood blocks in those days. The family spoke Swedish--Swedish church and Sunday school. When it came time for the schooling, my older brother, Albert, was started in kindergarten because he knew no English. We all spoke Swedish. When I was about to start school, my folks thought that Albert had taught me enough English, so they put me in first grade. I recall my first incident, probably in first or second grade, when each student was to do something special in front of the class. The teacher gave me a pair of rims of spectacles, without glasses, handed me a book, and had me stand in front of the class waving my left hand and moving my lips as if I was a speaker, probably because she knew I couldn't do very well in English. So that was the solution. In the winter the streets were blocked by snow. There was no attempt to open them. But the city created a single three-foot snow trench which we followed to school, about three-quarters of a mile. The lot next door was not built on, so as kids we used that to build snow forts. We had some grand battles during the winter. On Halloween the boys of the neighborhood usually turned all of the wood sidewalks over for several blocks. And the next morning we all went out and hunted for coins and miscellaneous items. I found a watch fob with a nice imitation ruby on the bottom and an inscription on the star saying "the Century Club." I had it for about fifty years, and then it was stolen in a burglary in Los Angeles.

VALENTINE: Well, that was an exciting time to be living in Oak Park. Frank Lloyd Wright was building at that time.

LUNDEN: Well, of course I didn't hear about Frank Lloyd Wright until I became interested in architecture. And then we heard quite a bit about him and became familiar with some of his work across the country. He did not open his own practice of architecture until 1893, four years before I was born.

VALENTINE: What brought your family out to Pasadena?

LUNDEN: May I insert one thing there first?

VALENTINE: Sure.

LUNDEN: President McKinley took office in 1897, the year I was born. He was assassinated in September of 1901, when I was four years old. My father was a Republican. There was much sorrow in the neighborhood. In the stores photographic busts of the president showed everywhere. My father had been ill for several winters, bedridden with bronchitis. It was in 1907 when the doctor said, "Why don't you go to California?" He decided to go in March 1907. And in April 1907 he wrote and said, "I am cured. Sell the house. Bring the family to California." This was B.S., "before smog." We left Chicago in late April 1907 via the Santa Fe [Railroad]. Mother, five children, and a twenty-one-year-old cousin, Carl John Erickson. We were five days in a chair car, no diner. Stops were made from time to time for food at what they called the Harvey House. And in Kansas City I recall cousin Carl had gone in for a pail of coffee and was delayed. I recall how he was running fast, carrying the coffee bucket, to catch the train as it started. He finally just made it, jumping on the rear platform. In Los Angeles, Dad had been living on Bonnie Brae [Street] near Sixth Street in a brick apartment house. Within a day we went to Alhambra to live and I went to school in second grade. In those days you rarely saw paper money, only silver dollars. No copper pennies--nickels, dimes, and quarters. Two bits, four bits, six bits, and a buck. That was the money of the day. On July 4, 1907, we moved to Pasadena to 736 East Washington Boulevard, where Dad had bought a two-story house on a two-acre-- What I call a farm. It was half grapes and half oranges. During the time we lived there we planted everything. And in high school I made a plan of the property, listing fifty-seven kinds of fruits. We arrived from Alhambra on a hayrack, with what little furniture we had gathered, on July 4. It was about a ten-mile ride. We found on the property a horse and buggy with a fringe on top, three hundred chickens, with a thirty-foot pepper tree in which they slept, and a big red barn. And to this Dad added a jersey cow. As we grew older, we four boys each had to take turns milking the cow over a two-year period. We had a calf which I named Panama, as it was born at the time the Panama Canal was first opened in 1914. * [Mr. Lunden added the following bracketed section during his review of the transcript.] *[Let's go back to 1910, three years after our arrival in California. A very important worldwide event was in the offing. English astronomer Edmund Halley observed a comet in 1682 and predicted correctly that it would appear again in 1759. This comet, first noted in 240 B.C., has since reappeared at an average interval of seventy-seven years. It is now known as "Halley's comet." At our home in Pasadena I was awakened at 4:00 A.M. on May 18, 1910, and found my brothers looking east out of our second- floor window. I joined them to watch Halley's comet streaking through the sky at about a 40 degree angle above the horizon. The comet was brightly visible like a small sun with a long sparkling tail. We watched it awestruck until dawn weakened its brilliance. In 1985 the Los Angeles Times said that Halley's comet would reappear and be visible in late '85 and early '86. In November 1985, living in Palos Verdes, California, near the Pacific Ocean coastline, I drove to a nearby hillside over one thousand feet high, away from streetlights, where I observed Halley's comet, using binoculars, at about 9:00 P.M. The comet was southeast about 20 degrees above the horizon- I was disappointed to find that it was very weak, colorless, and barely visible compared to its 1910 brilliance. At age eighty-eight I realized that I was lucky to have had the twice-in-a-lifetime opportunity to witness Halley's comet and remember so clearly its brilliance when the earth went through the comet's tail in 1910, when I was thirteen years old.] In that period prominent people wintered in Pasadena. I used to work in the garden and cut the lawn for Mr. Studebaker. It probably was John Mohler Studebaker, who was then president of the Studebaker corporation and, according to the encyclopedia, lived in California. I had a job on the way to high school. [I] traveled by local yellow trolley car, transferring to the big red car, then walked up Raymond Hill in South Pasadena to the winter residence of Mr. Pitcher, president of a Midwest lead corporation. There I cleaned out two large fireplaces and brought in large logs, prepared for a fire, ready to light for the evening. This happened every weekday morning. After that I swept the patios. After being given a breakfast by the Swedish cook, I went on to high school by the big red car and yellow trolley. I also carried the evening newspapers for the Pasadena Star News for one quarter, from Colorado [Boulevard] to the mountains and east from Los Robles Avenue to Sierra Madre [Boulevard], pumping the bike from Colorado street with a load of newspapers up to the mountains and back six times every night. I had legs of iron. On the Fourth of July I participated in the bike races at Tournament Park at California [Boulevard] and Hill [Avenue], in the area of the present Caltech [California Institute of Technology] campus.

VALENTINE: What were your impressions of Pasadena and Los Angeles at that time?

LUNDEN: It is interesting to look back, because in 1905 the population of Los Angeles was about 250,000. They had the big red car system built by [Henry E.] Huntington, which covered Los Angeles and Orange counties and beyond. Huntington built this, as I understand, to reach all parts of the "orange belt" which he created. We had the short line, which went between Los Angeles and Pasadena in twenty minutes. There was also the Oak Knoll line, which went around to Lake Avenue in Pasadena, up Lake Avenue to the foot of Mount Lowe, a place known as Rubio Canyon. At that point the funicular cable car took passengers up to Echo Mountain. There they transferred to a trolley car which wound its way around the mountain to the top of Mount Lowe. Here there was a hotel known as Alpine Tavern. And then you walked about half a mile along a fairly horizontal trail to a lookout point where you had a beautiful view of Los Angeles, its harbor, and Catalina Island.

VALENTINE: That was a pretty popular place to go at that time.

LUNDEN: Yes. My brothers and I used to hike to the top. One day we got our folks to go up by trolley. They took the electric cars, and we hiked up and met them up there. Then coming back we slid down the canyons and were there before they were. We met them at Echo Mountain, and then we met them down below in Rubio Canyon. We also used to hike to the top of Mount Wilson at about the 5,600-foot level. And in those days it was before the observatory was built, before there were any roads. It was just a trail. We used to go up in groups. Go up and reach the snow on the top and then hike back. It was a good hike from Pasadena to the foot of Mount Wilson, to start with. So it was about a day's journey. We only had a half hour up there before starting back, so we could get back before dark. As far as the city was concerned, it is interesting to note that Pasadena was organized as a city only twenty-two years before we arrived. It was organized in 1885. However, when we arrived, the Rose Bowl [Tournament of Roses] parade was in full operation, with the electric auto floats. We have seen that parade many times. After we moved close to Colorado street, it was only about three blocks away, so we had no problem. At that time Pasadena was growing and pushing back the orange and fruit orchards which covered the area. It had local yellow, electrical trolleys every half mile providing excellent transportation. These trolleys ran north and south and east and west. Pasadena was a well-known summer resort town. Dad worked for Pete Hall, the only union contractor in Pasadena. He had come from Chicago, where it was all union. Pete Hall was a contractor who built many fine houses, including some of the historical houses on Orange Grove Avenue, where some of the architects later become famous, such as the Greene brothers [Charles S. and Henry M. Greene]. I used to take Dad to work in this area, in the buggy with the fringe on top, before going to high school. Dad refused to work for the nonunion people, which in Chicago had been called "scabs." I don't know if you want to use that term or not, but it is a part of history.

VALENTINE: That's what they were called.

LUNDEN: We tried to make a living on the farm for about a year with little success. And finally Dad broke down and went to work for Schilling and Luce. These contractors were a small nonunion firm. They loaded wagons with building material; took a crew to Arcadia, where they put up a tent; worked from dawn to dusk; built and completed two houses in two weeks. I used to help part of the time and learned all trades. Dad then went into his own business in the twenties with a Dodge truck, as "Albert Lunden, building contractor." Then "Lunden and Son." It is now still going in the third generation [as "Lunden and Associates" ].

VALENTINE: Oh, really? Which sons were they?

LUNDEN: It was my brother Edgar and then his son Bill. The firm is still operating in Pasadena.

VALENTINE: What kinds of projects did your father work on as Lunden and Son? Houses?

LUNDEN: Houses, mostly houses, yes. In fact when I was in high school and started to do mechanical drawing, I designed two houses for him. One of them was built for our own house, which is in the 300 block on North Mentor Avenue in Pasadena.

VALENTINE: Well, you have a strong background for an architectural career, knowing the other side of the trade.

LUNDEN: Yes, it was very helpful.

VALENTINE: Now, where did you go to school in Pasadena?

LUNDEN: In Pasadena I went first to the Washington Elementary School. That was about a mile hike north of Washington Boulevard. Then I attended Pasadena High School on East Colorado street, where it was building a new school at that time. My freshman year was spent in the old Throop [Institute] buildings at Raymond [Avenue] and Walnut [Street]. Because Throop Institute had just moved to a new site at California and Hill streets which was to be Caltech, to which name it was changed shortly thereafter. So I entered in the new high school building in my sophomore year.

VALENTINE: What year would that be?

LUNDEN: That would be the year 1912. It might do well to emphasize the background of my father, because it did have an effect on what we as children did. He served in the Swedish military for two years, after which he went to night school and learned cabinetwork. He was an excellent cabinetmaker and carved and built a beautiful bric-a-brac table for us in Chicago. He had no higher education. My older brother, Albert, did not go to high school. He took a secretarial course and later took a University of California extension course in agriculture. He retired as the state supervisor of agriculture for Los Angeles County. However, I was determined to go to high school. Dad said, "Take a practical course, a shop course." I had to settle for that. I was the only one who went on to college except my sister, Signe, who was interested in teaching. She graduated from Pasadena High School in 1920. She attended Pacific Oaks School in Pasadena (now a part of Whittier College) for two years and received her credentials to teach kindergarten and first grade. She taught for three years before marriage. My brother Edgar went directly to work for his dad and became part of that construction firm. Clarence, the youngest, also took up carpenter work and became quite expert at interior cabinetry, working on the design and construction of interior facilities for department stores.

VALENTINE: You were also involved in public speaking at that time at Pasadena High School.

LUNDEN: Well, I'd been unable to take time off to go out for basketball, which was my only interest in sports from grammar school. We had too much work to do on the farm. So I tried out for the debate squad. I was successful in joining the research squad, spending spare time in the library preparing material for the debaters. One day I saw a notice for tryouts for the oratorical Peace Prize contest, given by the Southern California Peace Society for all Los Angeles County high schools. Wanting to do something besides research work, I thought I should be a speaker as well. So I attended the tryout and gave my speech. I was selected to represent Pasadena High School at Covina High School on April 23, 1915, and won second prize for my oration "A Logical Foundation for International Peace." I recommended a world court. On April 20, 1917, two years later, President Wilson proposed a world tribunal.

VALENTINE: You were ahead of your time.

LUNDEN: There's a lot more to that. I researched the event, leading up to my decision to promote a world court. It was during this junior and senior high school period that I began to find myself and to develop characteristics that stayed with me for the rest of my life. First, I gained confidence in myself and my abilities. Second, I began to develop leadership characteristics. The motto below my picture in our graduation yearbook was "Rush on, keep moving." It is still true. I was apparently destined to be involved in many things over a span of at least seven decades. In high school I took mechanical and freehand drawing. The only tangible tie to architecture in my high school period was a memorabilia item I found in my file some twenty years later. It was a four-inch by forty-five-inch inscription in black ink in Gothic lettering on heavy manila paper reading, "Architecture is frozen music." This may have been my first subconscious interest in architecture. Interesting? * [Mr. Lunden added the following bracketed section during his review of the transcript.] *[I have a book at home titled Familiar Quotations by John Bartlett, 13th ed., 1955. I found nothing similar under Ruskin. However, on page 307 was the following: Madame de Stael (1766-1817), "The sight of such a monument is like a continuous and stationary music." Friederich von Schelling (1775-1854, "If architecture is frozen music--" Not finding anything else, it may be that I took the Schelling question and put it into the positive to read, "Architecture is frozen music." Anyhow, I don't know how it developed, except that I did it in Gothic lettering in 1914-15.]

VALENTINE: So when did you graduate from high school? What year was that?

LUNDEN: I graduated in June 1915. I started looking for a prominent architect in Pasadena to see what kind of a job I could get. Reginald D. Johnson, architect, seemed to be well known. He was noted for the design of Italian, Spanish, Mediterranean type of houses, and later became known as the dean of that type of architecture.

VALENTINE: What made you pursue architecture at this point?

LUNDEN: Good question. Apparently I had been thinking about going into the field of architecture and getting a university education in it. Pasadena High School taught nothing in this field. Mechanical drawing and freehand drawing were the only related subjects. So I called on Mr. Reginald Johnson at his office and was put on his staff as office boy at two dollars per week. A senior draftsman in that period received one dollar an hour, which was about forty dollars a week. Johnson was regarded as one of the top residential architects. He was an MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology] graduate and had good contacts with Caltech. His office had recently moved to Raymond [Avenue] and Green Street in Pasadena. My first job was to design a filing system for his drawings. My second job was to design a doghouse for a Christmas present for his son Joe, [who was] about four.

VALENTINE: Did Joseph Johnson later remember that doghouse? Did it ever get built?

LUNDEN: I am sure it was built and ready for Christmas. Joe became my partner forty-five years later, in 1960.

VALENTINE: I know.

LUNDEN: It's interesting to note that Mr. Johnson was designing residences in Santa Barbara and also designed the large hotel [Santa Barbara Biltmore Hotel] there. Each summer he would pack up his family and spend vacation there. This summer while I was at his office he told me that they were heading up to Santa Barbara. He was driving the regular home car, and he wanted me to drive the office Model T Ford and take some furniture in the car and have Joe ride with me. So I took the furniture and Joe and participated in this visit to Santa Barbara. In those days blueprinting was in an early stage. I was sent to the office of Phillip Hubert Frohman on Colorado street to make an 8' x 10' blueprint on his equipment, a frame with a glass top into which the drawing was put with blueprint paper. The frame was then put on the windowsill facing the sun for development. Now there is a machine in almost every office formatting prints of all types. Mr. Frohman later was to become the architect of the Washington Episcopal Cathedral in Washington, D.C.

VALENTINE: Oh, yes.

LUNDEN: Knowing I had been involved in Gothic architecture with Ralph Adams Cram in Boston, later in my practice Mr. Frohman called and asked if I would like to be associate architect on the Holy Faith Episcopal Church in Inglewood which he had designed many years earlier. They wanted to add a bay to the nave of the church. I met with him in Inglewood with the head of the building committee of the church. When we finished discussing my qualifications and the project, he said to the chairman, "Mr. Lunden is very experienced. I would appreciate it if you have him do the work, and I will simply act as consultant, " which was the way it went. I enjoyed very much working with Frohman and enjoyed getting back into Gothic architecture.

VALENTINE: Do you remember when that was?

LUNDEN: It was in the forties. In those days as office boy I started tracing two copies of 3 '6" x 8' detail drawings for residences. I took advantage of this opportunity to learn how to detail. Within a year I was preparing the original drawings as a junior draftsman.

VALENTINE: Did you get a raise?

LUNDEN: Yes, I got a raise, and within two and a half years, when I started college, I was getting eighteen dollars a week. Working directly for Mr. Johnson, and with him on many projects, I learned much about the profession and how it operated. In those days the architect himself went out with the survey equipment and laid out the location of the houses on the lots. In this endeavor I was asked to go with Mr. Johnson and assist.

1.2. TAPE NUMBER: I, SIDE TWO
APRIL 20, 1987

LUNDEN: At the time I was in high school, I would go to Los Angeles on the red trolley on a Saturday afternoon with my brother Albert. We enjoyed going to some of the shows. Broadway was the theater street. One night we went to the Million Dollar Theatre, located at Broadway and Third [Street]. We saw a show in which the Lone Ranger was on the stage with Tonto and his horse. This whole episode of the show was very short, simply walking the horse across the stage, but that was the drawing card for the evening. Another night we went to the Orpheum Theatre, which is on the east side of Broadway, between Fifth and Sixth streets. Performing was a very prominent actor whose name was Ted Lewis. He always appeared with tails, top hat, spats, and a cane. He was quite a sight as a comedian. He was a top comedian in that period. We would then go to what they called the cocoa shops, one of which I discovered recently is still in existence as a restaurant, having the same old [Ernest A.] Batchelder tile walls which were manufactured in Pasadena. The place had been changed considerably, but the walls were still there. In those early days my dad would take us to church, the Swedish church in Los Angeles, and afterwards we would have lunch in the Rosslyn Hotel on Fifth Street and Main [Street], on the second floor. The hotel building is still there. I know because when I had my office next to it on Spring Street, 1927-78, R. A. Rowan [and] Company asked me to find out how much it would cost to tear it down, because it was not making any money. We found that it would cost too much to tear it down, so it's still there.

VALENTINE: We were talking about your working in Reginald Johnson's office. Who else was working in the office at that time? Didn't you meet some other architects?

LUNDEN: Oh, yes. I can give you more on that. While I was working in Reginald Johnson's office, my job was to greet everybody at the door. One day Gordon B. Kaufmann, architect, walked in. He had come down from Seattle, and probably Canada. He was engaged as a project architect. He was a very forceful character, and it wasn't long before he became a member of the firm. I recall one of his first jobs was to detail some iron grilles for one of the residences Mr. Johnson was designing. I became very well acquainted with Mr. Kaufmann. In 1916, the summer of 1916, Mr. Johnson had agreed to take charge of a Santa Barbara office for a friend, Mr. Rea, an architect who wanted to take a trip to Europe and would be away all summer. Mr. Johnson arranged to have Mr. Kaufmann and his family go to Santa Barbara for the summer and take care of his office, because this architect had several houses being constructed which needed supervision. So it was arranged that Mr. Kaufmann would take me along to work in the office while he was out looking after the jobs. In so doing, they had me stay at their home while they were there. So I became acquainted with his two boys. We used to go down to the beach on weekends. This was a very interesting experience, because I had drafting work to do in the office as well as looking out for the architect's interests. Another man who became quite well known was Paul Williams, the black architect.

VALENTINE: This is in Mr. Johnson's office?

LUNDEN: Yes. In Mr. Johnson's office, Paul Williams was one of the senior draftsmen. After Kaufmann had been there a few months Paul Williams, Kaufmann, and myself would "ham-fat" [have a ham sandwich] together every noon on the lawn of the Green Hotel across the street. In those days we all brought our lunches, so when twelve o'clock struck, someone would say, "Let's go out and have a 'ham-fat.'" So we got well acquainted.

VALENTINE: What kind of people were they--Paul Williams, Reginald Johnson, and Gordon Kaufmann?

LUNDEN: Well, they were very fine people. Mr. Reginald Johnson was the son of Bishop [Joseph H.] Johnson, who was at that time the Episcopal bishop of the Los Angeles diocese. When the Good Samaritan Hospital was built in 1926, Reginald Johnson was the architect. He was very active in civic and community affairs, and no doubt was quite active in the affairs of Caltech as well. Mr. Gordon Kaufmann became a partner and was still with Mr. Johnson when the Saint Paul's cathedral [Saint Paul's Episcopal Church] on Figueroa Street was designed. It has now been torn down, but I have a sketch of Saint Paul's signed by Gordon Kaufmann. Kaufmann opened his own office and designed the [Los Angeles] Times Building at First and Spring streets, the original Times Building built on that site. Paul Williams went on to be the top architect for the movie stars' homes. [He] designed many of the fine mansions in Hollywood. He then later became involved in civic, federal, state, and other types of buildings and took a lead among the black architects in obtaining that type of work.

VALENTINE: So these were happy years in that office?

LUNDEN: Yes, I enjoyed it very much. We had a man, a Scotchman named Ogilvie, with whom I was well acquainted. He was quite a golfer and he also was a singer. We had all types of people, and they're all very fine people. Dealing with my "rush on, keep moving" theory, one day one of my jobs was to erase. In those days drawings were made on tracing cloth, the final drawings in ink. Sometimes a lot of changes had to be made. As office boy I had the job of erasing. We didn't have erasing machines in those days. We just had rubber, red rubber. One day I was erasing, erasing, erasing like mad in the drafting room. Johnson came in and said, "What's going on here? Something's burning." He looked in the wastebasket, nothing there. Then he came, sniff, sniff-- "I say take it a little easier, Sam. You're burning the cloth." I didn't know. I didn't smell this. Well, anyhow, while I was at Johnson's office the Annandale Golf Club burned down. I was then a junior draftsman. Immediately after it burned, Mr. Johnson said to me, "They want a new building started. Will you get right on some foundation work and work weekends?" So I did work on getting out some working drawings for him on the Annandale club, the new building in 1916.

VALENTINE: Okay, what about Caltech?

LUNDEN: Well, Caltech. In 1917, after having been at Johnson's office for about two and a half years, I wanted to make a move toward my college education. Having taken only a shop course in high school, I lacked two solids and other credentials to enter MIT. Reginald Johnson was a graduate of MIT, which I had not known when I got the job there. He became my sponsor. He advised me to take my freshman year at Caltech, then in the process of changing from the Throop Institute to Caltech on a new campus at California and Hill street in Pasadena. By the way, that area was where the Tournament of Roses park [Tournament Park] was located and where the earliest football games were held.

VALENTINE: That's right.

LUNDEN: And where I used to enter the bicycle races on the Fourth of July. The most interesting thing that happened at Tournament Park was when there was a period when the Tournament of Roses, instead of football, had the Ben Hur, so to speak, chariot races there which I attended.

VALENTINE: Did you?

LUNDEN: I recall they had one grand collision one day where two of the chariots on a turn hooked axles. They all went up in a heap and a pile of dust. When the dust cleared, no one had been seriously hurt, but that incident was quite exciting. And very few people know or remember the fact that we had the chariot races at one time. Mr. Johnson knew the Caltech people. That paved the way for me to enter the wartime freshman course from January 1, 1918, to September 30, where I made up credits in chemistry, trigonometry, and German, in addition to the freshman requirements. I passed with higher grades than I had in high school, apparently because I had learned something about concentration and hard work and how to solve problems. In fact in trigonometry I was always racing with another boy to complete a blackboard. We always came out a tie. We both got a Roman I, "excellent," for our course. Before entering, I talked with Colonel Leeds, head of the ROTC [Reserve Officer Training Corps] at Caltech, concerning the upcoming draft. He convinced me that the military needed educated officers and that I should pursue my education until called. Frank R. Capra, the celebrated movie director, was a student at Caltech. He was captain of my ROTC B Company. He was also leader of the glee club, where I was a bass. Isn't that interesting?

VALENTINE: Very interesting. You knew him well?

LUNDEN: No, no. Just knew him as an outstanding leader. But I've watched his career quite a bit. They had one of these big dinners in his honor, you know. I watched that on the movies one night. Then I dropped him a little note.

VALENTINE: Oh, that's nice.

LUNDEN: On September 30, 1918, the day I completed my freshman year at Caltech, I headed for MIT in an effort to enter as a sophomore. On the advice of a Caltech professor I bought a recommended textbook on physics, on which subject I lacked a credential and had to take an exam on arrival. I studied for five days in a Santa Fe chair car full of noisy families. I arrived in Boston Sunday night in a rainstorm. The next morning I arrived at MIT for a 9:00 A.M. exam. I took the physics exam and then came down with the prevalent flu, and was in bed in my rooming house on Massachusetts Avenue for ten days. When I was able to get up, I went to MIT to check on my grade on the physics exam. I went to Dean [Alfred E.] Burton's office. He brought my paper out and said with a grin on his face, "Out of ten questions, you got one right." I said, "Which one?" He said, "The one which asks how much an x-pound fish will weigh at the end of a six-foot pole." I said, "I knew that one because I was a fisherman." I said, "What do I do now?" He said, "Go back to California." I said, "I can't because I don't have the money for a train ride. " Luckily Dean Burton was a kindly and considerate gentleman. He thought for a moment and said, "All right, we'll admit you on condition you take college physics and advanced calculus and pass both, in addition to taking the regular sophomore curriculum." I said, "Yes, sir. Thank you." I was able to pass all courses and graduate in '21. All right?

VALENTINE: Very good.

LUNDEN: I can fill in some more there. I'll tell you one incident. We had a rather short gentleman, a professor for calculus. At Caltech they advised me to wait until I got to MIT. When I got to MIT, being a sophomore, I had to enter the advanced sophomore class. So I worked hard. In about the middle of the course I wanted to know how well I was doing. I went up to see the professor, and he had a very peculiar nasal tone in his voice. I said, "Professor, you know when I entered your class I didn't know anything about calculus." His response: "And you don't know anything yet." Well, I passed.

VALENTINE: So you got a bachelor of science degree in architecture at MIT.

LUNDEN: Yes, I got a bachelor of science degree. While [I was] at MIT, the new buildings were located in Cambridge, whereas the school of architecture was still in Copley Square in Boston. This meant that we took the architectural work in Boston and had to go across to Cambridge a couple of times a day for the other courses, which was quite a long walk across the bridge, over the river, during my studies there. Ralph Adams Cram, the distinguished Gothic architect, was the dean of the school of architecture, and he taught philosophy of architecture. Having to work to make my way, I was able to get night work and on vacations at Cram and [Frank W.] Ferguson's office. While there I worked on the competition for the Hancock Insurance Company Building in Boston. However, in 1919 summer was approaching and I didn't have enough money to go home on, so I needed to get a job in Boston. So I asked Professor Jenney how I could get a hold of Mr. Cram personally. I had not talked to him personally except to listen to him lecture. "I'd like to get a job this summer." Professor Jenney said, "He's there in his office every afternoon at four thirty. Just knock on the door and walk in," which I did. Mr. Cram said, "I have a church in Georgia to develop this summer. Could you prepare the working drawings for it?" I said, "Yes, sir," never having worked on a church. He said, "All right. You see my chief draftsman, Alex Hoyle, a Harvard man." I talked to Alex and was hired. I had one problem. I would be a junior in the fall. He gave me an assistant who was a graduate of MIT. The graduate, it appeared, had had little or no experience. One day the head draftsman came by and looked at what this gentleman was doing, and he came over to me and said in a loud voice, "Mr. Lunden, you'll have to tell him what to do." From then on everything went fine. Now, the last item I have on my education is helping rebuild France. Want to cover that?

VALENTINE: Yes. How did you happen to get invited to go to France?

LUNDEN: Oh, about two months before I graduated, I received a notice that the American Students' Reconstruction Unit had been developed with the assistance of Anne Morgan, who had paid for the cruise from New York to Paris and back for fifty college graduates, who were to go to France for the summer aboard the steamship Paris on her maiden voyage on June 25, 1921, to help rebuild France. Just before graduation, I was advised that I had been selected as one of the fifty students along with one other MIT man.

VALENTINE: Did you apply for that, or were you recommended?

LUNDEN: I had been asked to apply.

VALENTINE: How did that come about?

LUNDEN: I had been recommended by the dean and the head of the department, I assume. The head of the department was Professor William Emerson. He was a very well known and amiable man. He had the French Legion button with a little red flower design. I would imagine that the organizers of the project would check with the universities and talk to the heads of their departments in making their recommendations. I had already been hired to work for Cram, but they were very kind to let me take the trip. In addition to Anne Morgan paying for the trip, the French government provided lodging and meals and transportation of the three units to the respective areas of operation. The units were in Rheims, Soisson, and Verdun. My unit went to Verdun. We were the guests of the French government for one week in Paris before reporting for work. On our arrival at Le Havre, the mayor came out to the Paris in the pilot boat to welcome us in the auditorium and toast us with beer. We were then taken on tours, including a visit to a retired general's rose garden, where we were toasted with his own rose wine. * [Mr. Lunden added the following bracketed section during his review of the transcript.] *[One day while walking down one of the streets in central Paris with Christopher Carven, my MIT partner, something grabbed me from behind. It was Professor Emerson with cane. He invited us to join him for lunch at one of his clubs, the Union Interalliee, which we enjoyed.] On the Fourth of July we were the guests of the ministers of France at the Champs Elysee for dinner from 1:00 A.M. to 3:00 the next morning because of the change of time, while getting the returns on the [Jack] Dempsey- [Georges] Carpentier (the French champion) prizefight in New York. I sat next to the minister of the interior, the minister for the Louvre. We had fifteen wineglasses in front of each place and stood and toasted each other after each round until 3:00 A.M., depending on which one won. Dempsey finally won. That about ended our visit to Paris. We then headed for our respective work areas. I was assigned to a French architect in Verdun. My project was to inspect the ruins of a stone church in Verdun, take measurements, photos, making preparation for preliminary drawings so that the French architects could use them in preparing final working drawings to rebuild the church. That was my main project. I spent most of the summer doing that. There's a lot more to that, but that is another story. Then the last item of this expedition is my exploration and study of Europe. Glenn Stanton of Portland--who later became president of American Institute of Architects--and I were granted permission to stay in Europe until November for study. While in Verdun, each of us traveled to nearby towns such as Nancy, Dijon, and the general environs of the French countryside. Now that we had completed our service for the French, Glenn and I took off for southern France and Italy. In Italy we noted a stillness in the atmosphere in smaller towns. Police well armed with rifles, walking in pairs. We wondered what was going on. We stopped in Florence to photo il Ponte de Vecchio and other important structures. Then by train to Rome in November 1921. Arriving in the station, we found crowds and a dead man lying on the platform by the locomotive. Questioning a German who spoke English, it turned out that today was the day the Mussolini forces were going through a rehearsal to take Rome over for Mussolini. The dead man was the engineer of the train that came in ahead of us. He was a member of the socialist party opposing Mussolini, so he disconnected the engine from the coaches, leaving a trainload of Mussolini's supporters in the suburbs. He was shot on his arrival at the station. We apparently came into Rome on one of the last trains for ten days. A strike was to bring Rome to a standstill during this period. As we left the station we found no baggage handlers, no taxis, and rubbish was collecting on the streets. There was a general strike. We took our bags out into the square and found steel shutters closed on all business places. After waiting, one of the restaurants opened their shutters about three feet from the pavement. We dashed over and ducked into the place full of people. We sat down at a little table with a German, because he was the only man we could speak with in English. He told us what was going on and how the Mussolini troops were marching up and down the street. He said that they had the upper hand--the regular military would stand back and let them go by. Every time we'd hear footsteps coming, they'd run the shutters down until the troops went by, and then after they'd go up. So finally, after being there for an hour or so, Glenn said, "I'm going up to our pension." I said, "You'd better be careful." So next time the shutters went up, he took off. He was gone about an hour. He finally came back. He said, "I got to the pension and was just lucky that there was a lady who insisted she was leaving Rome. The manager told her, 'Don't go because you can't get out, ' but she gave up her room. The concierge gave us a room, provided we take in an Englishman to stay with us. I accepted gladly. Then I walked back to the restaurant, and every time the troops came by I'd duck in a doorway." We saw that when they [the fascist squads] came up against the regular troops, they [the regular troops] would stop and let the [fascist] troops by. We were told to keep our shutters closed. So that's what I'd do. I'd just peek out a little when the soldiers came. They weren't all soldiers. They were just like the French Revolution--they were carrying all sorts of things, bats and anything. They were just a revolutionary horde, you might say. But the Englishman went out at night, and he would come back with the greatest tales in the morning at the pension breakfast. He said, "I would duck in behind the columns. I'd hear the shooting and saw two people shot last night." So that's the way it was. Luckily, however, Glenn had a friend who was an etcher from Portland and who later published many etchings. He was in Rome at the time-- we had been corresponding with him--and he met us at the pension. For ten days he took us by foot and showed us everything of interest in Rome. He knew what the fine things were. We'd go into little grottoes, churches, and all over the city and its environment. It was very fortunate that it worked out this way. There was no transportation whatsoever. History will show that just one year to the day after we arrived in Rome, Mussolini's Fascist forces marched into Rome and took command of the government. I have spent some time researching this period.

VALENTINE: An interesting time to be there.

LUNDEN: Right, and very exciting. I say history will show, because I'm very sure that we just happened to arrive there on that one day, one year before Benito Mussolini took over the government of Italy in October 1922.

1.3. TAPE NUMBER: II, SIDE ONE
APRIL 27, 1987

VALENTINE: In our last conversation, Mr. Lunden, you were touring Europe, but then it was time to come home and get a job. Where did you get your first architectural experience?

LUNDEN: After graduating from MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology] with the bachelor of science degree in architecture, I got my first architectural experience in the office of Cram and [Frank W.] Ferguson, architects, in Boston. Ralph Adams Cram was a very well known Gothicist. He had written a number of books in that field. He was a well-versed man, particularly in cathedral functions and rituals. He had a summer home in Palma Mallorca, Spain. Among the books he had written were Walled Towns and Frankincense and Myrrh. He was the dean of architecture at MIT at the time I was there. He taught philosophy of architecture. On a Friday session he would assign four of his books to be studied over the weekend. Cram and Ferguson's offices were opposite the mall in Boston. On the main floor most of the work was in the design of Georgian-style university buildings and facilities. He was also getting into the field of insurance buildings, which were multistoried and quite in keeping with the moderne style of the time. However, included were things such as Romanesque monasteries. On the upper floor he had only the people who were involved in the design of [the Cathedral Church of] Saint John the Divine in New York City. He was the second-generation architect for the cathedral. It was the largest cathedral in the world. The architects and draftsmen on that upper floor were referred to as "the saints." In the pattern of earlier beaux arts, Ralph Adams Cram personally included the fine arts. In cathedral design or in large church design, he generally designed all of the interior fitments, choir stalls, bishop's chair, and even designed the bishop's ring when he was permitted to do so. He was involved in the design of the reredos and altars in marbles, gold leaf, rich color, decoration, and sculpture. His office provided the very best environment for the young architect. The entire staff were very talented professionals, and they were always producing important works of art and architecture. Let's take a look at some of the projects on which I was involved. I was there from 1921 to '27. The first major project he gave me was the Holy Cross Monastery [West Park, New York]. At this time I'd like to indicate Mr. Cram's design procedure; it was quite different from the normal office. He would prepare an outlined plan and details, parts of elevations, all on a 30" x 40" heavy manila paper spread on his drafting board. There you would find partial elevations, sections, roof pitches. And when he was ready he would ask the head draftsman, Alex Hoyle, to bring the job captain in. Since I was to do the Holy Cross Monastery, one day I had received a call and I was ushered into his office. We had a twenty-minute discussion and review. I could ask questions. Then he rolled up the manila drawing paper and handed it to me and said, "Good luck." That was all. However, Mr. Cram had a habit of coming through the drafting room daily about 10:00 A.M. He would stop anywhere the head draftsman, who accompanied him, would indicate, but always at the desk of the people who were doing work directly for him. And he was noted for showing all important details on his drawing. He rarely missed anything. If you looked and looked and hunted all over that sheet, somewhere you would generally find what you wanted. Well, as many others had done, I guess, I found things missing. On this monastery there were a number of different projections from the building, and each one had its own roof pitch. There was one on which I could not find a roof pitch. I just hated to ask him, having him find it. So finally I was desperate. I said, "Mr. Cram, would you please show me where this roof pitch is?" And he stretched over the board for just a moment and said, "There it is." And I said, "Thank you." It was very embarrassing. But he was very meticulous in the designing of this particular Holy Cross Monastery. In the meeting in his office he gave me a lesson in the aesthetics of asymmetry. He said, "Mr. Lunden, you will find that these columns in the main chapel are not equally spaced. The difference is deliberate. That's the way churches were built in the old days. And you'll find that some of the walls will have a subtle pitch to improve the aesthetics. These are all good things to learn." And then he said, "You know, this building is a masonry structure, and the exterior is a combination of flagstone and brick. I want you to draw every stone and brick on every elevation, including the tower, so we can be sure it's what we want." Which I did.

VALENTINE: So he was very meticulous about details.

LUNDEN: Very, very meticulous. And another thing that comes to mind is that he had special habits, like every architect has. He was very proud of a certain fact. After he had designed a church-- I remember being told about this by Frank Cleveland, one of his partners. He had designed this church, and then before the working drawings were made he went down and sat on the site opposite where the church would be, and he'd make a perspective sketch of it just the way it was going to look. Then afterwards, he was very proud to show a photograph in comparison to show that what he had originally designed had been built.

VALENTINE: That office was a great place for a young architect to get started then.

LUNDEN: That's right. It does remind me of another thing which I haven't thought of for some years. Back in the forties I was well acquainted with Harold Chambers, who was a partner of Myron Hunt, Los Angeles architect. Myron Hunt was a famous architect in Los Angeles and Pasadena. Chambers told me one of the quirks of Mr., Hunt for getting jobs. He said that when he was asked if he would be interested in being considered for a church job by some organization, he would, while he was waiting for his appointment, look at the site and would get some background on that particular church's facilities and needs. And then he would sit down in his office and make a sketch of what he thought they would want as a church, as to type and character, from what he had found out. Then he would go to the meeting, and they discussed their needs. He would ask them what they wanted; they'd ask the right questions as to what he was going to show. Then he'd ask them if they had a piece of paper. And then he said, "If you don't mind, give me a couple of minutes here," and then he'd sketch out this perspective. They looked at it: "That's wonderful. You're hired. "

VALENTINE: Very good. What was your position in Mr. Cram's office?

LUNDEN: I was a project architect. I had full charge of making the working drawings. In some cases I did preliminary design work also, but in the larger projects some of the design partners of the firm had developed the preliminary drawings. The next project was known as the Provident Mutual Life Insurance Company complex in west Philadelphia. In early 1925, I advised Mr. Cram that I was going to be married on March 13 and take a trip to Europe and then go to Los Angeles, California, and planned to open my office. The trip through Spain, Italy, and other areas of southern Europe happened to occur starting on Easter week, where we found that in Spain the prices had been doubled, prices of hotel rooms, prices of food. And in the cathedrals, they had drawn a black curtain across each altar. In one cathedral it must have had five or six curtains like that. In order to see the arts and architecture of the chapels, I had to go and find the concierge and pay him a fee to open each curtain. So when we had gotten all through southern Spain and gone to Italy, when we arrived there we had used up a lot of our money we had planned on having to go to California. So one rainy night in Venice when we arrived, there was a telegram waiting for us. And the telegram said, "From Cram and Ferguson. Please come back. Take charge of important job on July 6." Well, we sat and pondered over that for about an hour, trying to decide whether to postpone the trip to California. We decided perhaps we wouldn't have enough money to get there anyhow. So I sent a wire: "Will accept." It was a $4 million project, the largest in the office. It included a four-story administration building with a colonial, Georgian tower. It included a master plan, an auditorium-dining building, a power plant, and an athletic field. The project was on a tight schedule. We worked hard to get it out. [We] finally got it out on time and got it out on budget. I did some preliminary supervision at the beginning of the construction and then left for California in 1927. Let's go back for a moment to our marriage and what happened after that. We remained in Boston, of course, from '21 to '27. When I first came to Boston to go to MIT in 1918, the Boston area was replete with colleges and universities for men, women, and coed. There were student social groups. A very active students' group was at the First Baptist Church in the center of Boston Sunday evenings--students from Wellesley [College], Smith [College], Boston University, Harvard [University], Sargent [College of Allied Health Professions], and MIT. I met a student, Leila Burton Allen, from Sargent school of physical therapy, which school was located right back of Harvard University and which school is now a part of Boston University, known as a college of physical therapy. At the time I was graduating from MIT in 1921, we attended the graduate prom, and then left early and headed for the annual youth group banquet, which I was chairman of. At the prom we wore formal dress. The people at the banquet were not [in formal dress]. So when I arrived late with my starched shirt, I was introduced as the gentleman with the Pacific slope. I married Leila Burton Allen on March 13, 1925, at her home in Melrose Highlands, Massachusetts. She was a member of the Allen family, early settlers on Nantucket Island, Massachusetts. Leila graduated from Sargent College in 1924 in physical therapy, which college is now a part of Boston University. She worked a year in New York in Washington Square at a physical therapy facility. When we married, we pooled our resources and took off for a four- month trip to Europe to blow it all before we went to California to start the practice of architecture. Our family includes Ardelle [Lunden] Rorden, Robert Allen Lunden, and Alice [Lunden] Olsen. Alice has a degree in music from USC [University of Southern California] and is a symphony bassist. Robert Lunden is an electronic engineer on space shuttles. We have three grandchildren.

VALENTINE: Now, what years were your children born?

LUNDEN: Well, Alice was born in 1926 in Massachusetts, Robert was born in '28, and Ardelle was born in '33, both in California.

VALENTINE: You had a new practice and a new family in California.

LUNDEN: That's right.

VALENTINE: What was your first commission out here?

LUNDEN: Prior to the first commission, I'd like to explain that we had planned to leave Cram and Ferguson, which we did in 1927. Prior to that, not expecting to start a practice immediately, I was offered a position in the office of Gordon B. Kaufmann, whom I had known since 1915, when I was office boy and when I met him and he came down and applied for a job. He had written and asked if I would take charge for him, as project architect, of a large Hollywood hotel which he had hoped to become the architect of. When I arrived he said that they were still having problems financing it and, pending action, would I take charge of a dormitory design. The dormitory was in [the] Claremont Colleges. It was the Scripps [College] dormitory. Having had six years of experience in Cram's office, upon completing my work on the Provident Mutual Life Insurance complex, I advised Alex Hoyle, partner and head draftsman, that I was leaving for California. Mr. Cram called me into his office and asked if I would do him a personal favor. Would I take a rendering of the reredos and high altar for Saint Vincent's Church in Los Angeles with me and present it to Mrs. [Estelle] Doheny personally? It was an elegant piece of design, and at that time the ecclesiastical fitments were valued at $100,000. On arriving in Los Angeles I delivered the rendering to Mrs. Doheny at Chester Place, her home. We then met at Saint Vincent [de Paul] Church. Sitting in the pews in the center of the church about ten rows back from the sanctuary, we envisioned the new high altar ahead at the end, and as we looked around I said, "Mrs. Doheny, it would seem to me that what we need to do is to embellish at least the sanctuary and perhaps the entire interior." She said, "What would you do?" I said, "The thing to do would be to start with the sanctuary and design a walnut screen between the columns and embellish the screens with sculptured figures of the Bible. Then you would need the design for a bishop's chair, a marble pulpit, choir stalls. And then proceeding to the crossing of the church, you would have to build new altars and a reredos for each of the chapels. And then you would have to decorate the chapels and decorate all the ceilings of the sanctuary and of the nave and provide stained glass in all of the windows and lighting fixtures." Then, looking up at the dome: "I think you should put up in there paintings of the four evangelists." I convinced her, and the work was ordered. The paintings were done in the dome by John B. Smeraldi, a noted Italian artist. Cram was very pleased to receive this commission, which involved a great deal of beautiful work. I had just received my license to practice architecture in California in 1928 when this commission was received. Mr. Cram then appointed me associate architect on the Saint Vincent project. The interiors have been kept in harmony with the spirit of the art and architecture of Mexico as evidenced by the style of the exterior of the church, which was designed by Albert C. Martin [Sr.], who started the now three-generation firm of Albert C. Martin and Associates. Ralph Adams Cram describes the style of the interiors as "a much modified Spanish Renaissance and Baroque as it showed itself in the Plateresque and Churrigueresque styles." I quoted Mr. Cram to show that consideration was given to the exterior design in developing the character of the interiors, and also to pay a tribute to Albert C. Martin. Cram and Ferguson, architects, and Samuel E. Lunden, the associate architect, were awarded the certificate of merit on the interiors of the Saint Vincent ' s Church by the Los Angeles chapter, AIA [American Institute of Architects]. In 1978 the church with its new interiors received the "heritage cultural monument" designation.

VALENTINE: It is a beautiful building.

LUNDEN: I think that covers it properly.

VALENTINE: Your next big commission was the [Pacific Coast] Stock Exchange Building. How did that come about?

LUNDEN: I would like to discuss what led up to this appointment. I was engaged by Schultze and Weaver of New York to supervise the construction of the new addition to the Biltmore Hotel in Los Angeles. This was in 1928. Six months later they asked me also to become manager of their Los Angeles office. After completing the building, Schultze and Weaver offered me a project job in Florida for a new hotel. I advised them that I was sorry to have to turn it down, because I had planned to open an office in Los Angeles. The partner who was in Los Angeles at the time said, "Mr. Lunden, we wish you success, and we're going to give you a $500 bonus for the work you've done for us within the last ten months." He said, "Mr. James R. Martin, who is the treasurer, is the man to see. He will be able to help you." Mr. Martin, by the way, was my contact with whom I had been working throughout their project. He represented the Biltmore owner, and as such he had to approve every change order for additions and changes. Over the period, I had to go to Mr. Martin's office to explain to him every change order. Within a few months he gained confidence in my work. One day the hotel people wanted a large mirror costing thousands of dollars put up at the end of the ballroom. I called Mr. Martin. Instead of asking me to come over, he said, "Have you checked the cost? Is it satisfactory?" I said, "Yes, sir." He said, "Go ahead." I knew I had his full confidence by that time. So I called, made an appointment, went to his office, and asked for his help in opening an office. He said, "Mr. Lunden, I'll help you all I can. Would you please go to the Rowan Building--that ' s one of the buildings I am treasurer of--and see [R. A.] Rowan Company people, and get a room there to start your office." I went there and found the Rowan Company had the entire third floor. So I singled out a room on the fourth floor right above that, so as to be handy in case they wanted any service. A few days later I received a lease to sign. I felt I was unable financially to sign the lease and shouldn't do so. So I took it to Mr. Martin, and he looked at it and said, "Why did you pick the most expensive room in the building?" I said, "Did I?" I said, "The reason was I wanted to be able to serve the Rowan Company. It was right at the head of the stairs down to their office." He looked at me, smiled: "Let me have that lease." [He] opened his desk drawer, put it in, and said, "Pay me when you can." That was that. It turned out that the Rowan Company was my first continuing client of over fifty years. When they moved to Pasadena in the seventies, they had us design their office there. It turned out that Mr. Martin was a civic leader who had been involved in helping develop the new airport, involved in getting UCLA started, and he was treasurer of many organizations. He was also treasurer of the Pacific Coast Stock Exchange. He had his office on Spring Street and was in business as a stockbroker. After I had gotten settled in my office, he called me one day and asked me to come over. He said, "I'm treasurer of the stock exchange, and we are in search of a site for the stock exchange building. We do not want to engage an architect at this time. We'd like your help, but with the understanding that you will not be the architect." But he said, "We'd like you to work privately, no publicity--it may be for a year-- and help us determine where the best site is for the building, whether on a corner or an interior lot, the relationship of the cost of each, and then we will negotiate a site before we start designing the building." So I started the study, made studies of costs for sites, costs for building on a corner of Spring and Fifth Street and [building on] another site in the middle of the block. And after a number of studies, a site was selected in the center of the block because it was most cost- effective, less expensive to build, and also it had fewer restrictions. The restriction on this site was that the part of the building facing Spring Street included the stock exchange trading floor, and the limit put on by the people who sold the property and the adjoining people was that the roof of the trading room and the clearing house floor above was to be the limit of the height of the building facing Spring Street, but that we could build a thirteen-story working tower with offices at the back of the building. This was the way it was built. After about a year of study, I'd gotten acquainted with the officers of the board of governors who formed the building committee. We met Wednesdays and discussed all the problems. I developed floor plans for them to determine what they wanted in the building. After we had determined the overall cost of the building based on the approved building program, then they talked about engaging an architect. When final preliminary plans had been adopted by the board, I went to Jim Martin and asked to be the architect for the stock exchange building. He reminded me that we had an understanding that I would not be the architect. I pointed out that I had met with the board a number of times in planning the building, that I had their confidence, that we had a good plan, a good working relationship, and it would save time if I continued. Mr. Martin, however, had a problem. Since the turn of the century, architect [John] Parkinson had designed all major buildings on Spring Street to date; he was known as the Spring Street architect. Nevertheless, Mr. Martin agreed to discuss it with the board. The next day he called me over and said, "We'll appoint you architect if you will make Mr. Parkinson the consulting architect." I said, "Yes." He said, "Sam, if you flub this one you will have to go down and walk off the end of the Santa Monica Pier." I got up, shook hands, said, "It's a deal. I'll send you a contract." That's how I got that job.

VALENTINE: What did John and Donald Parkinson do on that building?

LUNDEN: I dealt with Mr. John Parkinson, and we had some conferences. But, actually, he had one suggestion, which dealt with placing the stock exchange trading floor on the street level-- This would narrow the trading floor by ten feet and require a side corridor entrance. But it became clear in talking with the board that there was no reason for putting it on the street floor. The stock exchange was a privately operated organization with no public, except in the viewing gallery. Also, our design called for a central entrance, which seemed appropriate for this type of building and gave them a floor of special offices on the main floor. So the building went ahead according to our concept of a central entrance and the trading floor up one level.

1.4. TAPE NUMBER: II, SIDE TWO
APRIL 27, 1987

LUNDEN: On October 29, 1929, while we were developing the working drawings, the stock market crashed. I met with the board to consider changes necessary to reduce the cost. We had a health club floor in the first basement. The health club was eliminated, moving all boiler room equipment up to the first basement and discontinuing the second basement. This was the only change in the plans, but it reduced the cost by 10 percent. At this time no one knew that the depression resulting from the crash would remain for several years.

VALENTINE: How could they pay for such an expensive building during the Depression?

LUNDEN: Well, actually, excluding the site, the building budget was $1 million. It was cut down to that after the crash. And I'm sure that the board, with its memberships, was able to take care of the finances. The memberships on the stock exchange cost a certain sum of money. In fact, today the paper indicated that on the New York Stock Exchange they had been up in the hundred thousands for one membership. My concern was not with that end of it. I was simply the architect. During the sesquicentennial celebration of the founding of the city of Los Angeles, the Pacific Coast stock Exchange received the Silver [Anniversary of Los Angeles] Award. That was in 1937. In 1933 the Los Angeles chapter of AIA awarded the architect a certificate of merit on the Pacific Coast Stock Exchange Building. They also awarded honors awards in 1933 for arts allied with architecture as follows: granite masonry, artificer, McGilvray Raymond Corporation; decorative and sculptural carving, creator and artificer, S. [Salvatore] Cartaino Scarpitta; bronze work, artificer, A. J. Bayer Company; wood carving and joinery, artificer, Commercial Fixture Company; industrial arts, mechanical and electrical equipment, creator, Ralph E. Phillips, consulting engineer. The Pacific Coast Stock Exchange Building was declared a "heritage cultural monument" in 1979.

VALENTINE: Now, the style of the stock exchange is quite different from anything you'd done before. This is a nonrevival building. How would you describe it?

LUNDEN: The design of the building was developed by myself and my partner, Roger Hayward. Roger Hayward was also an MIT man and was a particularly skilled designer, artist, astronomer, etc. He illustrated for the Scientific American for many years. I helped bring him into Cram's office while I was there. And when we were awarded the stock exchange, I brought him and his family to Los Angeles. Later on he became a partner. While on the stock exchange, we sat down to talk about the character of the building. We were not concerned whether it was classic or modern. I had prepared a general design of the building, showing the stock exchange lower front facing the street, with central entrance and a tower in the back. We felt that the lower facade was very important because this represented the stock exchange, which had some substance in the eyes of the community and should be important. So we thought it should be done in granite with carving to illustrate the purpose of the building and should be fairly rich. It so happened that we had in our library books on various types of architecture- And in it we had some architecture of India, which Mr. Hayward was interested in. We took the books out and looked at them for a while, and we felt that the richness of the sculpture in India was a characteristic that might be of interest- So we decided that we would take off from that point with our own design, and whatever we designed would have the same type of richness to it. It was to be a very simple facade with a sculpture in the upper area, and that determined the character of the building, which has been called many, many things. But it was certainly modern. Interestingly, we have in the last few years heard a lot about postmodern, as to what it would be. In that period I was asked by the Los Angeles chapter [of the AIA], among a few other architects, to write my opinion of postmodern, what the definition should be. At the time I wrote the article I had two young architects on my staff, a young lady and a gentleman. I took them to lunch one day and said, "I have a purpose. I want your opinion. I have to write this article. What is postmodern? How do you define it?" Well, the young lady said, "Mr. Lunden, I know what postmodern is or should be. It's the stock exchange that you designed. That's my idea of what postmodern should be." So I think it could be called a simple, monumental, modern classical concept for the lower main facade. The back area of the building with a high tower was kept in the simple form in terra-cotta tile. In the interior we developed certain characteristics, which included a rather hexagonal character to all the fixtures that were designed in the various elements of the building. The stock exchange floor was done in a simple manner with walnut cabinetwork for the lower walls, booths, and all the paraphernalia, and then acoustic material on the walls above with continuous lighting all the way around the periphery of the room to light the statistical boards. The boards in that period were not mechanical, but were operated by people from a balcony.

VALENTINE: It was a style that was used very much in the 1930s, and your building was one of the first to use that style and do it so well. I wondered if it was economics or a conscious matter of style or symbolism.

LUNDEN: No, I think it was a simpler form of architecture which was coming into style. It was really after the art deco style.

VALENTINE: Did Mr. Hayward design all the sculpture for the stock exchange?

LUNDEN: No. He assisted and worked on developing the characteristics of the facade, finalizing them. In reference to the word sculpture, the caps of the vertical piers were designed by Mr. Hayward in detail, which gives that Indian richness. But as to the sculpture which occurs right over the main entrance, big horizontal strip sculpture, for that we engaged Mr. Cartaino Scarpitta, who was the best sculptor we could find in this period in the Los Angeles area. He designed a very interesting sculpture symbolizing modern industry--which subject matter was worked out between Mr. Hayward, myself, and the board--as it relates to the work of the stock exchange.

VALENTINE: It's a beautiful blending of modern art and architecture.

LUNDEN: Yes. I think it came out very well. We received much publicity. The Los Angeles Times ran a large section on it, and a national architectural magazine put out a special section. It even was illustrated in Germany at the time.

VALENTINE: You didn't do many residences. You did mostly large commercial buildings. But I think you did an early house at this time in Altadena.

LUNDEN: After all, I started in Reginald Johnson's office as office boy, and there I learned how to design and detail residences and had a chance to observe the beautiful Spanish Mediterranean residences that were being designed at that time. I was very much interested in that, but I never had given any thought to what I would do as an architect. Actually, what has occurred is that I have done, I think, what I would like to have done, and that is a great variety of projects, all types of buildings. But just as I was starting the studies for the stock exchange, a neighbor friend of mine came to the house to talk with me about life insurance. We got through with our conversation. I said, "Do you know anybody who wants to build a house?" So he said, "By the way, I have a client. Mrs. [Carrie M. ] Morehouse and Mrs. [Maude V.] Yerke." Mrs. Morehouse and Mrs. Yerke, both widows, had moved here from the East, and they wanted a house that was safe. They had an accident with an explosion using gas in the East. They said, "We would like you to design a house which has no gas in it. It will have to be all electric." So we did. We designed a house which is located on Santa Rosa [Avenue] --what was called Christmas Tree Drive--in Altadena at Mendocino [Street], on the northeast corner. It's in the Spanish Mediterranean character that I learned in Mr. Johnson's office. Recently when an article on my work appeared in the Los Angeles Times, I received a call from a gentleman who was quite excited that he had found the architect of his house, which had been built some sixty years earlier. He was very anxious to have us come over and see how it looked today. Looks very much like it did originally. At that time I designed a very interesting interior. The main entrance has a stairway to the second floor, which is provided with a beautiful iron railing and decorative Spanish tile for the risers and red tile for the treads. It still looks very nice. But being one of my first jobs, I had a very poor contractor, apparently, and I spent all of my fee supervising the construction.

VALENTINE: What other lessons did you learn in the early days?

LUNDEN: That it is a mistake to cut down on your services in order to make a profit. I think the lesson is that you do what is necessary to complete the best job you can for your client. I like to think about some of the things that I learned on the way over the years. One was from 3 past president of the American Institute of Architects I used to go to conventions with on the train. He would talk about his practice. He said, "Never spend all the money from your fees when you get them." He said, "You're going to need them later in order to keep an even keel in your business." That was very good advice. The most important problem for the young practitioner is obtaining clients. Actually, you can't count on getting more than--if you're lucky--one out of ten of your best prospects, because there's so much competition, particularly today. The larger corporations which have been formed in recent years actually make it more difficult for the young and smaller architects to make a start.

1.5. TAPE NUMBER: III, SIDE ONE
MAY 4, 1987

VALENTINE: Mr. Lunden, the next thing in your career was probably your masterpiece, and that's the [Edward L.] Doheny [Memorial] Library. Can you tell me how that commission came about?

LUNDEN: Yes, I think that is a very interesting question. In 1931 I became aware of the fact that Mr. [Edward] and Mrs. [Estelle] Doheny had made a $1 million gift to use [University of Southern California] for a library in memory of their son Bovard. As soon as I heard this, I went directly to the president of the university, Rufus B. von KleinSmid, on the campus. His secretary asked my name and what I wanted to talk about. Her name was Miss English. I said, "The Doheny Library. " She went in to see Mr. von KleinSmid and came out and ushered me into his office. A very kindly, gray-haired gentleman met me and asked me if he could be of service. I advised him about my work with Mrs. Doheny on Saint Vincent [de Paul] Church with Ralph Adams Cram, Boston architect. I said that I would like consideration in the award of the Doheny Library in association with Cram and Ferguson, Boston architects. He said, "You are late, because the USC board is meeting tomorrow noon for lunch, and it will make the award at that time." I said, "Dr. von KleinSmid, then it is not too late." He thought a moment and then said, "Mr., Lunden, if you have a written proposal in my hands by 10:00 A.M. tomorrow, then we will give it consideration. " I said, "Yes, sir, I will have it for you. Thank you." I hustled to the office. It was 5:00 P.M., and 8:00 P.M. in Boston. I called Chester Godfrey, the business partner of Cram and Ferguson. He answered and wondered what I would want at his home and why I would call at 8:00 P.M. I said, "Chester, would you like to have a million dollar project?" He said, "Why yes, of course." I told him the story and said that I would like to have Cram and Ferguson involved in the work on this basis. Cram and Ferguson would take on the preliminary design stage for 25 percent of the fee, and my office in Los Angeles would prepare the working drawings and inspect the construction project as it developed. "But I must have an answer tonight, as I have to have a written proposal in the hands of Dr. von KleinSmid at ten o'clock tomorrow morning." He said, "You have my authority to submit the proposal." I delivered the proposal personally before 10:00 A.M. At 2:00 P.M. Dr. von KleinSmid called and said the project had been awarded to Cram and Ferguson and Samuel E. Lunden as associated architects.

VALENTINE: Do you know what other architects they were considering?

LUNDEN: Yes, later. I was not told at the time. But up to that point the only other architect that I know of had been John Parkinson. He was the man that had built buildings on Spring Street for many years, and he was consulting architect to my firm on the stock exchange building. However, at that time I had no knowledge that he had been the architect, as he had been for all of the major buildings at USC up to that point. Shortly thereafter I met John Parkinson on the street in Los Angeles, and he said, "Sam, I take my wife on vacation; we drive up the state every year. I was away and I came back, and during that time you took Doheny Library away from me. " I said, "What do you mean I took Doheny away from you? Well, John, I simply presented my qualifications." He said, "But I've been making sketches for the library for a whole year." I said, "How was I to know? Besides, is that ethical?" He thought for a moment and then shook my hand and said, "Touché. "

VALENTINE: How would you describe the design that you worked out for that building? What style would you call that?

LUNDEN: * [Mr. Lunden added the following bracketed section during his review of the transcript.] *[The Style of the library cannot be tagged with a name, for no architectural precedent has been rigidly adhered to. It was the aim of the architects to create an original expression in brick and stone that would harmonize with the other buildings on the campus. Round arches in pairs and triplets and walls of pale Roman brick with a cream-colored limestone trim, enlivened with colored marbles, are suggestive of the Romanesque of northern Italy, though as a matter of fact the Romanesque has only been taken as a point of departure.]

VALENTINE: Well, the materials that are used on that building are quite beautiful and chosen deliberately for their permanence, and are American materials, I understand.

LUNDEN: Yes, throughout the project, inside and out, Mrs. Doheny was very much interested in local materials. She specified that we should have California materials wherever possible and otherwise products from around the United States. Actually, from the very beginning the project went very smoothly. Ralph Adams Cram came to Los Angeles personally and reviewed the progress with me. Actually, there was no formal building committee. The committee consisted of Dr. von KleinSmid, Estelle (that was Mrs. Edward Doheny ), and myself. We met as a committee, when necessary, every Wednesday morning at her home on Chester Place at a round table in a room facing a beautiful garden. There we mapped out all of the detailed special room requirements for the library, which had been developed in principle by Dr. von KleinSmid and the university librarian, Charlotte M. Brown. We presented these items to Mrs. Doheny to give her an opportunity to state her likes as to special facilities, including materials and finishes. She stressed that we must select materials that are available in California and requested that we plan to use redwood and other native woods. We actually have a half a dozen different native woods built into either the walls or into the equipment, tables and chairs. At those meetings my questions were answered and verbal instructions given weekly, thus expediting the project. I furnished all decisions in writing. It was very unusual because there were no letters from the administration or the donor. I did all the paperwork. The budget was $1 million, and Ray Kinney, who was in charge for Fred Walker of P. J. Walker Company, general contractors, had worked with me on the stock exchange as well. He was a very fine construction manager and knew his work very thoroughly. We worked to budget the project for the million dollars. We were able to include all the furniture and furnishings, chairs and tables designed and built to order. On completion we had $5,374 left. I asked Dr. von KleinSmid what we should do with it. He said, "Let us have a meeting with Mrs. Doheny. " We did and asked what she wanted to do with this balance of $5,374. She was so surprised and pleased and said this was the first time they hadn't asked for more money. She said, "I will ask the university to build Alumni Park in front of the Doheny Library. I will give the university another $50,000 for this purpose." So we proceeded to develop the design for Alumni Park. We selected Mr. A. [Albert] E. Hanson as landscape architect, who participated in developing the landscaping for Palos Verdes. When it was completed we had $487 left and I asked Dr. von KleinSmid, "What should we do with it? Shall we buy blotters for the desks or shall we buy the bulbs for the lighting fixtures?" He said, "Buy the bulbs."

VALENTINE: There's also a nice cloistered patio in the back of the library. Whose idea was that?

LUNDEN: Yes, that was a part of the whole concept. We engaged Mr. A. E. Hanson, the landscape architect, who had designed most of the work for the city of Palos Verdes, and we gave him an opportunity to work on every part of the campus, including the patio. He was responsible for all the landscape work. Of course the planting of Alumni Park was subject to Mrs. Doheny ' s approval, such as the sycamores which we planted deliberately across the Trousdale Parkway road in front of the [Bovard] Administration Building so as to tie the landscaping into the facade of the administration building. * [Mr. Lunden added the following bracketed section during his review of the transcript.] *[When Mr. Cram came to my office with preliminary plans for the library, I noted that the plan was symmetrical. We then visited the site and noted the diagonal east boundary coming to a point at the southeast corner. I suggested that this gave us an opportunity to double the length and capacity of the main reading room in the south wing. He accepted this change. This change made it possible to build a cloistered patio with the south end enclosed by the wing. When the addition was built in 1967, it made it possible to build the new bookstack in the area of the original patio and move the old patio south, still enclosed on the south by the main reading room wing.]

VALENTINE: Tell me about Mrs. Doheny and Dr. von KleinSmid. What kind of people were they?

LUNDEN: They were both very wonderful people to work with. First, I mention Mrs. Doheny, because I had worked with her for several years on the Church of Saint Vincent de Paul. She was always pleasant and receptive to ideas. We got along very well. Dr. von KleinSmid was a very able administrator, and he was well liked by the students. At that time they had no formal university architect. So whenever I came on campus he would say, "Let's take a walk around." And we'd walk around it, and he'd tell me about buildings he had in mind some day and look at sites to get my opinion. Even at that time they were having problems which might necessitate a fence of some type around the campus. In our discussions we talked about what type of fence. I recommended a decorative iron fence between brick or stone pillars. Actually, that seems to be what has been done over the years. We'd walk around the campus, and he was always saluted by everybody- -all the students said hello to him. He was a wonderful person to work with.

VALENTINE: How many students were at the university at that time?

LUNDEN: In 1931 there were six thousand students, compared to twenty-seven thousand in 1987.

VALENTINE: I was wondering about the size of the Doheny Library, what capacity that was designed for.

LUNDEN: I'm glad you asked that question. Miss Carrie Brown was the librarian. She had been marshaling the books. They were stored in basements of several older wooden buildings. She had to keep track of them during all that time she planned for a new library. She worked for years, and she investigated all the major libraries across the country. I still have in my file one of the documents which has broken-down figures on how many books and types of books and what departments they had in these major libraries all across the country, which formed the basis of her advice to us and for us to talk to her about in determining the type of rooms and the sizes. In the 1932 library we had a capacity of about 1 million books. The 1967 addition more than doubled the capacity to 2.4 million volumes.

VALENTINE: That's the addition that you also did?

LUNDEN: Yes. This was designed by Samuel E. Lunden, FAIA, architect.

VALENTINE: Explain how you enlarged the library without destroying the original basic plan and yet doubling the capacity.

LUNDEN: Well, the addition came about in this way: It was their custom to ask me to develop a study first as to what would be needed. I was asked to make a study of if there was any possibility of adding to the library without disturbing the design. At that time they gave me no limit. Well, I investigated three or four different solutions, some better than others. I came in with a very preliminary report first because I didn't know how much they wanted. Apparently we had provided their options for space up to twice as much as they really wanted. So after we had come to a conclusion of how much space they needed, then we agreed on the scheme which we built. Actually, the bookstack was in the center rear of the library. The patio which we have now was the area on which we doubled the stack. But in order to do that we had to take the patio apart and rebuild it, stone by stone. We took it apart, even the sculpture over the entrance, which we had to tie up with steel bands so it wouldn't break. And then we rebuilt the patio to the east of the addition to the stack and extended the left-hand wing of the library to encompass it. When the arcade had been rebuilt, we came up with the same patio as before, except [because] of the fact that now we would have an enlarged library underneath it, we cut out most of the planting. For what planting we did, we built concrete tubs, you might say, in the floor of the patio, which extended down into the stacks, and waterproofed them very carefully. I recall my concern about water in the bookstacks. I had specified very carefully how it should be waterproofed. When it was all waterproofed, I said, "Now, I want to test it first." I said, "Now turn the water on, fill the whole patio and the tubs with water, and let it stand overnight. And we'll see if there are any leaks in the morning." There were one or two in the tubs, minor, which were corrected. So then I felt secure. Then we put our brick and flagstone pavement on top of the concrete slab and roofing. The addition of the stack and wing presented a very difficult problem in matching the existing brick, because after that number of years, the pit where they obtained the clay for the brick had disappeared and the company was out of business. So I had to work with another company. On the original building we had four patterns for brick, a, b, c, d, different colors which were blended. With a new clay available I was only able to get three colors, a, b, c, that matched. But actually when it was built, it was very difficult to tell the difference. And the same way on the stone. The stone actually was a limestone that came from Texas, Texas limestone. We had very carefully called for a striated pattern on the face of the stone, which is a horizontal striping which is called "shot-sawn, " by sawing the stone with lead steel shot, creating this striation. So then the man who had the contract from Texas submitted a sample which was striated by hand. I objected. And then he said that there wasn't any more shot-sawn available. He said you couldn't get it anymore. So I said, "Well, we'll see." So I called Cram's office and said, "Is that shot-sawing place still operating in Kansas City?" He said, "Yes." They gave me the address, and I called them and they said, "Yes, we have the equipment." So I told P. J. Walker [Company] about it, and I wrote a letter and I said, "I want this shot-sawn stone as specified. Tell the stone contractor where he can get it, in Kansas City." So we got it. So with those two things we succeeded in getting the same character and color. Actually, when the stack and wing were completed, there's no way of telling the old joins from the new except on the north side, where I went out one rainy day and discovered I could tell the difference at the joint, checked my specifications, and found we used a different wax on the old building from on the new.

VALENTINE: You're probably the only one that notices that. It's a good match.

LUNDEN: No one notices, but I've told one or two friends who asked about it.

VALENTINE: There's another good story about the piece of marble used in the entry that had a flaw in it.

LUNDEN: Oh, yes. In the center of the main delivery hall as you come up the steps, right in the center, under the chandelier there's a large piece of marble which is about five feet square, but it's octagonal. Musto-Kennan [Marble Company] were the subcontractors. Their president called me one day and he said, "Mr. Lunden, we have the marble for that special design. It's come as a large block of marble, and we have cut it and find that there's sort of a black flaw right near the middle of it. I'm afraid we're going to have to get another block." I said, "To get another block would delay the job. May I come down and see it?" So I went down and we took some measurements. I found that by cutting the stone a little bit off center we could bring that spot into the dead center. I said, "Let's use it and make something of it. Put this black flaw in the center by cutting very close to one edge. You can cut the rest off on the other side, and you'll come up with it in the center." And we did. It's a rather interesting talking piece.

VALENTINE: Yes it is.

LUNDEN: It's very interesting to look at it.

VALENTINE: Who supervised the art program for the building?

LUNDEN: By the art program you mean--

VALENTINE: The sculpture and the paintings and--

LUNDEN: That was all supervised by my office. I was deeply involved in that. We developed it with Mrs. Doheny ' s approval as to what we were going to do. We did engage Mr. [Merrell] Gage, the sculptor, who was teaching sculpture at USC. He created the main piece of sculpture, which was over the patio entrance. The other sculpture was more classic, which came with that particular Romanesque style in the carving on the front. The art of particular interest was over the entrance arch, where there is a terrazzo mosaic in color. Well, my partner, Roger Hayward, was very interested in astronomy and had permission to go up to the observatory on top of Mount Wilson and observe the stars after midnight when no one else was using the equipment. He said, "I would like to do the terrazzo mosaic as the signs of the zodiac." He said he would have all the stars shown up to third magnitude. He did this all in the terrazzo. The Doheny Library received a certificate of merit award from the Los Angeles chapter of the American Institute of Architects [AIA]. The chapter also had a program of honor awards for arts allied with architecture. I submitted several arts projects which received awards. One of them was the terrazzo mosaic over the main entrance doors of Doheny Library. For that work of art the artificer, Angkor Mosaic Company, who made it, received an award and Roger Hayward received an award for the design, which depicted the signs of the zodiac. The Wagner-Woodruff Company received an award as the creator and artificer of the bronze lighting fixture in the public area. Mr. Burnham of Boston was the artificer who designed the very fine stained glass windows in the rotunda of the delivery hall. They're tall lancet-shape windows depicting the earliest universities in North and South America. It's worth looking at sometime.

VALENTINE: It's beautiful.

LUNDEN: The library is now fifty-five years old and will soon be air-conditioned.

VALENTINE: I noticed that they're renovating the library now and you're working as the consulting architect on that.

LUNDEN: After fifty-five years of use, a renovation program was needed. In addition, they are air-conditioning the library and providing controlled air for the books. They have to have a certain amount of moisture kept at certain temperatures to preserve the books. So that is all being built into the library now. An interesting thing was that at the time we built the library in 1932, air- conditioning was just coming into being. There hadn't been very much air-conditioning up to this period. We had only $1 million. It was not enough for air-conditioning. At that time Mrs. Doheny wanted to hold it to $1 million, which we did. But I did this in 1932. I knew it would require a cooling tower, and usually cooling towers added afterwards on a roof are rather ugly. So I told Mr. Cram I wanted to build that into the design. So we built it into the design. It's the present tower that's been on the roof all the time, except it's been empty, except for a certain amount of isolated air-conditioning equipment in it. Now it's being filled with the cooling tower equipment, and it's useful just the way it is. And with the louvers in its facade, you don't know anything has happened or changed. Also, I told my mechanical engineer that someday they would want to add air-conditioning. So I said to Ralph Phillips, "Won't we need larger ducts?" He said, "Yes, we will." I said, "Well, will you design the duct sizes for air-conditioning supply ducts?" Which he did so that we would not have to change them. This consulting commission came after I had closed my office in 1978. Mr. Ralph Flewelling [Jr.], architect--who was the son of the Ralph Flewelling [Sr.], architect, who designed the school of philosophy [Mudd Hall of Philosophy] at USC--an excellent architect, was awarded the design of the renovation work and the air-conditioning. He engaged me as consulting architect to watch over the arts and architecture of the building. In fact, I will be going down directly after this meeting and make an ongoing inspection of the work now nearing completion. There's so much artwork in there. For example, in the Memorial Room [formerly the Chancellor's Study, now the Rare Book Room] at the right-hand end of the main entrance corridor off the delivery hall, Mrs. Doheny asked us to provide a mural by Mr. Samuel Armstrong of Santa Barbara, which we did. She required that we build the finish in that room of English oak, which she helped us obtain, and which was brought over as a log and cut up and used for all of the oak in that room up to about a height of seven foot six, and above that there is the mural. So all of these and other works of art had to be protected so that the conditioned air supply could come in to various areas without disturbing the architecture. So it's been an interesting thing for me to protect all these "special effects" that we designed so many years ago.

VALENTINE: I am sure. That building is really the heart of the campus in so many ways. It's a wonderful place for reading.

LUNDEN: It gets a great deal of publicity.

VALENTINE: You designed some other buildings at USC, including the Allan Hancock Biological Research Foundation Building.

LUNDEN: Yes, we designed the Hancock Building in 1940. It was Dr. von KleinSmid's thought that with the Doheny Library facing the administration building, he would like to try to keep buildings adjoining Alumni Park in some similar character. So he wanted me to do that building, the Hancock Building. It was very interesting that at the same time C. Raimond Johnson had been engaged as supervising architect for the university. One day Dr. von KleinSmid called me in and said, "I wonder if you would mind if we change the format a little bit." He said, "Ray Johnson would like very much to be the architect for that building. Would you be the consulting architect?" I said, "That's perfectly fine with me." He didn't have much of a staff and asked if he could use some of my people. So Roger Hayward was put in his office with some of my men, which gave me a little better control. So we developed the Hancock Building. We did not have the kind of money we had on Doheny [Library], so we could not use Indiana limestone or Texas limestone. We had to use concrete instead, with brick inserts where required by the design. In order to get the concrete to match the cream color of the limestone, I spent almost a month making samples with the help of the contractor. I think we made about twenty-five samples trying to refine the color. Every time you put color in, it would get dark, and I had to put a special other type of material in with it in order to lighten the color, which we did. We finally developed a limestone color which was suitable.

VALENTINE: The sculpture on that building is marvelous too.

LUNDEN: Yes, the sculpture was very interesting, because [G.] Allan Hancock, who gave the money for it, had owned the La Brea [tar] pits area on Wilshire Boulevard, which is now part of a county park [Hancock Park]. He was very much interested in the prehistoric animals that came out of the La Brea pits. So with the help of my partner, who was quite an artist himself, we assembled historic material and engaged Mr. Gage, sculptor, to prepare these designs. We indicated which ones we wanted and where. We profiled life-size in concrete the big lions and elephants on the front of the music auditorium facing the Doheny Library. The other animals were on the side pilasters. The interior included the old house of the donor from Wilshire Boulevard. It had some beautiful interiors. It was taken down in several pieces and put together on the use site. We then had to reinforce the exterior walls for earthquake design. We did that by taking off the exterior row of brick and then Guniting and putting on our finished brick and concrete to match the rest of the building. There's one great room which goes way back to, oh, a very, very French sort of design, very rich interiors and glass chandeliers and an organ. That is now a cultural, historic monument. It's worth seeing.

VALENTINE: Oh, yes. I think you've also done some dormitories for USC, haven't you?

LUNDEN: We first designed the women's dorm, which included two dormitories with a common kitchen in the center. One was the Elisabeth von KleinSmid [Memorial Hall] dormitory, and the other one was the international residence hall [Marks Hall]. That was in 1949. It was a three-story building of brick and concrete located near Figueroa Street. We designed the Fluor Tower men's dormitory in 1968, which is south of Exposition [Boulevard] near Vermont [Avenue]. It's an eleven-story building and very interesting, because there we planned suites instead of individual rooms. We have eight students to a suite. Each suite has four bedrooms, two students to a bedroom. They have their own lounge and their own bathroom and showers in the suite. This plan was typical for the building. And then on each floor we also had a common lounging room where they could get hot coffee and so forth. It was very interesting that during the last Olympics, I was on Cape Cod watching it at our summer place, and every time the high divers would go up to the top and ready to dive, towering above that scene was the top of the red brick and concrete building which happened to be the Fluor Tower men's dorm. So I'm sure that many millions of people have seen that building.

VALENTINE: Well, you've really watched that campus develop and change, haven't you.

LUNDEN: Yes, I have. Over the years I've been called on to serve USC through five administrations, five presidents. I worked on fifteen or twenty projects and a number of consulting projects. Whenever they had a project that was in its early stages, I was very often consulted, such as the music center [Ramo Hall of Music]. I was consulted to help develop their needs with the faculty. These programs were developed, and then later on when they raised the money, they appointed an architect. In 1971 we were appointed to renovate the interiors of the Gwyn Wilson Student Union building above the first floor. In 1974 we designed the Hazel and Stanley Hall Financial Services Building. It's a three-story, very attractive building of stucco with a red tile roof. In 1982 we designed the Hedco [Petroleum and Chemical Engineering] Faculty Building for the engineering school. A recent project was the renovation of Bovard Auditorium, with decorating by Tony [Anthony B.] Heinsbergen, completed in 1976 and renamed Norris Cinema Theater.

VALENTINE: Your involvement with the AIA goes back a long, long time. You first joined in what year?

LUNDEN: I became a member of the American Institute of Architects in 1931 and joined the Southern California chapter. I became active very quickly and was treasurer of the chapter in '36 and '37. Then I became vice president in '38. At that time Sumner Spaulding, who was president, came to me and we sat down to talk. He said, "Sam, we need you for a longer time on the board. Normally after my presidency, you--being vice president--would be moved up to president. Would you stay on as a director for a few years?" I said, "I'll be glad to do whatever you think is best for the chapter." So I became a director in '39, '40, and '41. Then I became president in '42 and '43. So I served eight years, probably the longest of any director that I know of.

VALENTINE: What was the chapter like in those early days?

LUNDEN: It was a very small chapter. We only had one hundred members. Of course there were no women members in those days. It was a men's organization. It was growing rather rapidly. It was first known as the Southern California chapter. Well, as it grew, San Diego broke off as a separate chapter. Then I was appointed chairman of the committee to determine what we should do in the Los Angeles area, because Los Angeles was growing so fast and we were growing so fast that the members wanted some definition of what a logical chapter membership break-off point should be. So in my committee we developed a plan which until today has been followed very carefully. The Orange County chapter broke off next; then the Pasadena chapter broke off. And we had already defined all these boundaries. Then the Long Beach chapter broke off and became the Cabrillo chapter. And the San Fernando Valley was still a branch chapter until this year. I have just received a message that they are forming a separate charter. The only one left is the West Los Angeles area breaking-off point at La Brea [Avenue]. One day I'm quite sure that will happen. Our chapter, then, has grown from about one hundred members when I was president from '43 to '44 to eighteen hundred members in 1988, even with the break-offs of five new chapters. The name has been changed to the Los Angeles chapter.

1.6. TAPE NUMBER: III, SIDE TWO
MAY 4, 1987

VALENTINE: When you were involved with the chapter board, that was during the Depression. What impact did that have on architecture as a profession?

LUNDEN: In response to your question, I will discuss a specific development. From '32 to '35 was the period of the big Depression. The [Los Angeles Area] Chamber of Commerce tried to encourage housing and developed a committee which would stimulate the construction of housing. This was being pushed by the FHA [Federal Housing Administration] and others. This was not a part of the chapter activities, but I became chairman of that committee of the chamber. The committee included Mr. Fred Marlowe, who was head of the FHA in Los Angeles. We developed a very ambitious program and agreed to form a nonprofit California corporation in order to effectuate our program. It included the development of a building to be used annually for housing exhibits in order to stimulate housing. At that time we engaged Cliff Henderson, who had been in charge of air races at the Los Angeles airport and of the Cleveland air races every year. He was a very able developer. He joined forces with us and agreed he would buy the Gilmore property at Fairfax [Avenue] and Third street, which had been used as a small racetrack. So Cliff bought the property, not only for the building but for parking and the whole project, providing we would build the building and it would become his after the first housing exposition. So I became secretary of this corporation. The board said, "Will you design the building?" I said, "No, I ' m on the board, and I don't think that is quite the thing to do. But I would like to recommend that we have an AIA competition with a professional adviser." So with the board's approval I appointed Earl [T.] Heitschmidt, architect, as professional adviser, who was then active in the chapter. We set up a program to build a building for a hundred thousand square feet at a dollar a foot. A wood-frame building, a dollar a foot, for $100,000 as the limit. And we did a rather unusual thing. We required each competitor among the architects to come in with a contractor who would agree to build it for a dollar a foot. It turned out that we had about 250 entries. So we devised the system of judging by ourselves. We couldn't afford to compensate judges, so we had each architect judge all of the entries. They were all exhibited, and they all scored, then, one, two, three, or four, whatever. We all assumed they'd give their own number one of course. So it would be equalized that way. And from that we picked the ten highest bidders. We picked the ten who had received the nearest to number one score, the lowest score. And then these ten picked the winner in the same manner. Who came out first? Welton Becket. Now, Welton Becket had just come into town from Seattle or Portland. Interestingly enough, at my home in Manhattan Beach one Sunday afternoon, I was out in the yard working and up through the field came a young man and his wife. [They] stopped and said, "Hello." I said, "You live here?" "No," he said, "I'm just down from Seattle." I said, "I'm an architect." He said, "Oh, I'm also an architect." So we got acquainted right then and there. So here he was starting business, and he went out for and won this project. Why we had 250 architects was because everyone was hungry for work. Here was the chance to do even a little building, but it was a public purpose. Welton Becket brought in Ford [J.] Twaits as his contractor. Ford Twaits had been with Scofield [Engineering-Construction Company], when I supervised the Biltmore Hotel addition in '28. Ford Twaits agreed to contract the building for $100,000. It was named the Pan- Pacific Auditorium. Well, they built it for $100,000, and maybe [they were] a dollar short, but they came through okay. A good show was put on, and many other shows were put on over the years. Cliff Henderson put in an ice-skating rink. He used it for skating between shows. Then it was used, by adding tents outside, for auto shows. He was quite a developer. Matter of fact, he then retired to Palm Desert, where he developed the Shadow Mountain Club. * [Mr. Lunden added the following bracketed section during his review of the transcript.] *[It is not generally known that the facade of the Pan-Pacific has been altered. Cliff Henderson engaged my firm to prepare the design for a second story to add to the one-story units at each side of the main entrance. The change in the appearance is hardly noticeable. No doubt photos of the original design will be used for the historical records.] This building became well known as the Pan-Pacific Auditorium, which is now another cultural, historic monument. Victor Gruen, architect, has been appointed to develop a program, and it's still in a state of flux because of the condition of the building, as to whether they're just going to use the facade or try to restore the whole building. So they have problems, but it will still be restored in some manner.

VALENTINE: That's another marvelous building that's very much associated with Los Angeles, the facade of that building.

LUNDEN: Yes, that is true.

VALENTINE: I read an article in the newspaper about expanding the Pan-Pacific in 1937 that said you were going to design a number of additional buildings to make that into a recreation center. Whatever happened with that project?

LUNDEN: There was a little theater built facing Third Street. I went in to see a movie which showed a development of the Pan-Pacific area. I know that right after he finished the building,e Cliff asked me to make a few studies, including a master plan, which I did, for development of a large center there. I still have a photo of the rendering. But it was never funded, so it didn't go ahead.

VALENTINE: There's another story about your doing the painting to get that show open in time, that you were up all night helping to do the finishing touches.

LUNDEN: Oh, that was the Honeymoon Cottage exposition, which architect Wallace Neff had been commissioned to design. As a matter of fact, we had a very tight schedule to get the first show on the road, and I was very active in it, being [secretary] on the board of the [housing exposition] corporation. I got a call one day that said one of the contractors was tying everything up. He was behind schedule, and he wouldn't work overtime. So I went down and looked it over, and I called him about ten o'clock at night. I said, "You're tying the whole show up. I want you to get going." He didn't want to do anything about it. I said, "Listen, you're coming down tonight or we're going to give it to somebody else to finish." So he came down and he finished on time. Then the Honeymoon Cottage was late in getting started. I got a call: it didn't look like it was going to be ready for the grand opening at ten o'clock the next morning when the governor, Edmund G. Brown, Sr., was going to cut the ribbon. So I came down and stirred things up a little bit. They were finishing the mantle of the fireplace, and they had a marble floor in the fireplace. Then the painter said the paint couldn't dry. So they lit a fire in the fireplace, and the marble buckled up. Anyway, we finally got the painting finished and we got the fireplace fixed, and then about 9:30 A.M. the truck came up with a little picket fence to be placed around the Honeymoon Cottage. We got the picket fence in place just before they cut the ribbon and escorted the governor, mayor, and other celebrities into the exposition. So we have all these things that happened which are rather interesting. At the closing ceremony Fred Marlowe, the director, introduced me as the spark plug of the exposition.

VALENTINE: You were elected president of the local chapter of the AIA in 1941, and your inauguration was another significant day, December 7.

LUNDEN: Yes, I was elected president and I took office. Actually, what happens, the president is always inaugurated in December the year before he officially takes office on January 1. So that was the night of the meeting, December 7, 1941, Pearl Harbor Day, when President Roosevelt declared World War II. We began to get the news, I think, in the afternoon. I began to get calls from some of the board members. They said, "Well, are we going to have a meeting?" I said, "Sure we're going to have a meeting. I've got a program all set up, and it's very important. So get over there." It was in the Grant Hotel on Hill Street between Fourth [Street] and Fifth [Street]. So we had forty of our one hundred members there, which is a pretty good record. We had a very exciting meeting. That was where I presented a program of planning for war and peace. On every other month we alternated the programs. The first one was developing military work for the architects. Half of the architects' offices were closed. The war was on and jobs were scarce. So we were able to get many men in work related to the military. They would be constructing various projects for the services. On the alternating month we had programs dealing with postwar planning, long-range planning. This kept up the interest in those programs. We had excellent attendance. We had some of the top military people in all of the divisions as speakers. They personally told us what they had in mind for openings for the architects. This helped an awful lot. I remember one of our past presidents. Van Marston, Pasadena architect, went to Nevada to work with a company which was mining a product for government use. Later when the war was over, Dave [David J.] Witmer, architect, was in charge of feeding Paris for a period of time. Before the war started, one of our board members, Henry Newton, took off for the service. He had been in the California state guard. He was an officer there, so he was called into service very early. He was first teaching in the army, and then he worked up into becoming a general in the army in charge of an army tank corps training in Texas. The interesting thing was this: He had been down in Texas with this tank corps getting ready to be shipped over into active service, when all of a sudden he got a call asking would he be willing to go on Eisenhower's staff to take charge of protecting all of the arts of Europe. (An architect was a good choice. ) But he would have to drop a rank, lose his generalship status. He had a few friends and I was one of them, and he wrote to me off and on. He sent a letter. He said he sent it out to four or five of his friends. He wanted their opinion. What should he do? He was really torn between-- He wanted to stay a general, he wanted to serve in the army, but here was something that Eisenhower wanted. And he finally became an officer on Eisenhower's staff. His corps went ahead of the American army. They went into all of the churches, gathered all the art there, and they stored it in salt mines. When the war was over, he was also asked to go find the treasures and bring them all out. Then he was retired. When he was retired, he was one rank higher. He retired as a general. Then they wanted him to teach. He became the head of a unit which taught all civilians and army people who were sent abroad on special missions for the government to help with the reconstruction work in France and all over Europe. He taught both military and other people how to behave over there, what languages were needed and everything they had to know in order to do their job.

VALENTINE: He was a valuable person to have.

LUNDEN: Very valuable. So he did that almost till the time he had to retire on account of his health, and passed away shortly thereafter. So our chapter members had a great part in the war really. Henry Newton's practice was designing Catholic churches.

VALENTINE: You were involved in some housing programs.

LUNDEN: Yes. I was involved in postwar housing. It was interesting that when I was the president of the Southern California chapter of the AIA, just shortly after I became president I got a call from a government official with the federal housing program. He asked if I would come to his office. He had an important message for me. I went down to see him. He said, "Mr. Lunden, we have a very urgent program. We need housing in San Diego for the military. I have a request here from Washington. I ask you if you will help. We will need ten San Diego architects and ten Los Angeles architects to team up to form ten teams. The orders are there shall be a San Diego and a Los Angeles architect team, because the work's going to be done in San Diego, but we have more architects in Los Angeles. And so what I'm asking you to do is to make up ten teams and have them here tomorrow morning at nine o'clock in person." He said, "Can you do that?" I said, "Yes, sir. I will be here in the morning with ten teams." This was about noontime. I went back to the office and started calling. Of course everybody was low on work. So I picked the architects I could think of who were experienced in housing. Earl Heitschmidt I called first. I said, "Look, Earl, you're the first one I'm calling. You have the choice of all the architects in San Diego. Get busy and make up a team. Do it right now. Let me know." So he did, and I called on around. I got them all together. We had ten teams at the government office that next morning.

VALENTINE: They all showed up?

LUNDEN: They all showed up right on the dot, nine o'clock. By noon they each had their own project. He had five thousand housing projects to give out, and he gave five hundred units to each team. They each had their site and development program. When we were dismissed, he said, "Now you have your instruction, you have your data. Go to work. Don't wait for your contract. Go to work now." So they all went to work. Each one did a good job.

VALENTINE: Were you one of these teams?

LUNDEN: Well, I didn't want to be on. I thought somebody else should be on, but he said, "Now, Mr. Lunden, remember we want you as one of the teams. You pick your own architect." I didn't want to be by myself, so I picked Roland Coate, one of the most famous residential architects, as my associate. Then I picked a San Diego architect named Earl Giberson. We worked together very nicely. It was very interesting, because at that time we had blackouts. I used to drive down from Manhattan Beach, drive down in the morning in the blackout. I got there at eight thirty. I called Giberson, who was home. He said. "Where are you?" I said, "I'm down on the site." He said, "I'm just finishing breakfast." So at night I would have to drive without my lights. What worried me the most was the servicemen walking the highway, trying to pick up rides and all. I was just scared that I would hit somebody. But I used to pick up a number of servicemen on the way back. So it was a very interesting program.

VALENTINE: So your project was the Chesterton housing project?

LUNDEN: The Chesterton housing project. I don't think it's there anymore. It was a wartime thing. They had certain types to choose from, types of plans. Then we put them together to form one bedroom, two bedroom, three bedroom, and so forth, and to fit the sites, which were on a hill with canyons around. We were about halfway through with our drawings before we got any of the site survey plans from the government. We had observed the hill our site was on and taken chances. We had, out of five hundred, only a couple we had to change on the drawings. That's the way it was. We had to keep going in order to meet deadlines.

VALENTINE: You also provided community facilities, a kindergarten, cafeteria.

LUNDEN: We were to do a school building. It was a prefab, prefabricated building. We had to use prefabricated government sections and put the buildings together in relation to these parts. So they're built very economically.

VALENTINE: Now, was this war housing for war workers or was this planned for postwar housing? Or both?

LUNDEN: No, these were for war workers. However, some of them were later used for postwar housing.

VALENTINE: And then you also did the Avalon Gardens project.

LUNDEN: I want to go back and say that a lot of these were used for the postwar period. They were very valuable for many years. I did several in the Los Angeles area, but the earliest one was Avalon Gardens, located down on Avalon Boulevard at Eighty-eighth Street. I had two architects on the Avalon Gardens project to spread the work around. Carleton Winslow was the architect associate of [Bertram] Goodhue on the Los Angeles [Public] Library and the San Diego Exposition. Roland Coate was an excellent residential architect, having designed many beautiful homes. We made a master plan, then designed the homes. We designed a community building which was very attractive. These people wanted a very pleasant community building, so we put a beautiful fireplace in it. When we got the plans back, that was crossed out. We couldn't have a fireplace. Those were not in the regulations. It so happened that Dean [Arthur B.] Gallion, who had been a dean at USC, was head of the housing department [United States Housing Authority, Western Region] for this area, with his office in San Francisco. I was very upset about that decision. So I went up to see him. I went up to San Francisco and had a meeting with him by appointment. I told him, "These people, this is what they need. They live in this low-cost housing, and if there's someplace to get together, there's nothing like a fireplace. So he said, "Mr. Lunden, we turned it down because there's nothing in the regulations that we're going to have a fireplace." I said, "Dean, I want to give it to you. I'll give you the money for it. Can we put it in?" He looked at me and said, "Oh, go ahead, put it in. I'll work it out some way."

VALENTINE: Good for you.

LUNDEN: He changed his mind, so they got their fireplace. And then about a year later, after the whole movement was over, I got a call from his office saying that a team had come out from Washington and was inspecting all the jobs. They had made a special commendation for the attractiveness and design of the Avalon project.

VALENTINE: It was probably the fireplace that did it.

LUNDEN: It probably was in part, but I think it was Roland Coate ' s touch in the design that did it.

VALENTINE: Tell me about Carleton Winslow and Roland Coate. What were they like to work with?

LUNDEN: Oh, they were very wonderful people. Let me explain that Roland Coate was the second partner to Reginald Johnson, whom I started with. Gordon [B.] Kaufmann, who came down from the north, became a first partner, and then while I was at MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology] Mr. Roland Coate became a partner of Mr. Johnson. Coate and Johnson were both the top residential architects. Roy Kelley was the other major architect for residential, and he was a genius at that. And the fourth man I'd like to mention was the man I used to "ham-fat" [have a ham sandwich] with in the Green [Hotel] park in Pasadena. That was Paul Williams, the black architect. He did housing of a different character. His was the big, expensive home for the movie people in the Hollywood area. I got along very well with Roland Coate in all the work we did together. He designed a home, the Doheny residence up in Beverly Hills, the "Greystone Mansion, " which has now been turned into a public service building.

VALENTINE: While we're talking about the AIA, you were very active in the national organization as well, weren't you?

LUNDEN: Yes.

VALENTINE: As a member?

LUNDEN: Yes. When I was president of the chapter in 1943, one of the other things I was requested to do was to entertain the British mission who had come over to study our construction methods. They had lost five million houses they had to reconstruct and a lot of other buildings. So I met with two members of the mission. Sir Alfred Bossom was a member of Parliament, and he was also an architect. He'd been born in America. He'd been an architect in Pittsburgh. He was now a member of Parliament. And with him was Sir James West, chief architect for the British Ministry of Works. They wanted a tour of what was going on in California to see how we built and so forth. So I spent a whole day with them all the way to San Diego, where we looked at wartime housing and other developments there. They learned a lot and I learned a lot. It was a very interesting mission. It was interesting enough so that Sir Alfred Bossom sent me his Christmas card every year for about twenty years. He designed them, and they were simply blueprints. But he drew everything out and they were very beautiful. So that was a very interesting experience. Then when I was chapter president, another thing happened. Ray Ashton, who was president of the AIA, came out at our invitation to speak to the chapter and review our activities. We had been very active, and there was an article which I wrote on the subject of what the chapter was doing. So we had come to notice throughout the nation through the publication. This was in April of 1943 when this article came out in a national architectural magazine, Pencil Points. [It was] titled "War Activities of the Southern California Chapter, American Institute of Architects." He stayed over a day and said he'd like me to take him on a tour. So we went on a tour, and we looked over wartime projects and housing projects. I got very well acquainted with him, and he was quite impressed with the work that we were doing. To come to the national scene, in 1944 there was no national convention. This was the year after I was president of the chapter. There was no national convention because transportation had been restricted. Conventions were off. In '45 there was to be a convention at Atlantic City. However, we were restricted to two delegates from each chapter. We had two delegates, and I was elected as one of the delegates. When I arrived at the convention in the afternoon, Ray Ashton met me--he was the 1944 president of the institute--and asked me if I would serve as vice president on the 1945 national ticket that was to be voted on. It was quite a surprise, but I said yes. So I was elected in 1945 and reelected in 1946, serving two years as vice president of the American Institute of Architects. As vice president, I was chairman of the executive committee. This was quite a time-consuming task, because I had to make at least four round-trips a year from Los Angeles to meet with the executive committee, as well as to the annual conventions. It was a four- to five-day trip across the country on the Southern Pacific [Railroad]. I would go as far as Chicago and then change to another rail line to Washington, or the convention site. I remember I used to take two briefcases. The first one was my work in the office. I kept working on my business all the way to Chicago. At Chicago I mailed everything back, and then I opened my other case and started studying the agenda for the convention, or for the executive committee. Let me go back to 1942. At that time I was chairman of the national committee on bylaws. The rules of the board and the bylaws were all one document. President Richmond Harold Shreve asked me to separate them into two documents, the bylaws and the rules of the board. Who were my committee? President Dick Shreve and Charles Tattersall Ingham, the secretary of the institute. Dick had a good sense of humor. They let me do all the work in California, and I would send the drafts to them. In checking and returning the drafts, Dick would always have some humorous remark at the side of the page. It was such a tedious job-- this helped a lot. So we managed to get the new rules of the board and the bylaws approved by the convention. That was one interesting project. So when I became vice president, I was glad to shuffle the bylaws committee on to someone else. Then I did several things which were not a part of what you must do, but it was on my own. I was always irritated by the fact that the West Coast chapters rarely submitted names for election of officers nationally. I was always pushing our chapter to do that. Well, in 1951 I had an interest in getting a West Coast man on the national board. I led a group to elect Glenn Stanton of Portland, Oregon, who had been very active in the institute and served well. He was the man that I traveled with in Europe in 1921. He was a Portland architect. I worked hard with this group and got him elected as president. And then later on they had a candidate from San Francisco who passed away before the convention. When I got to the convention I tried to get our chapter to put up another name. They weren't interested. So I had done some research work before I left and I had picked out a man named Rex Allen, who was then, I think, president of the local chapter in San Francisco. So I took it on myself on my own and tapped him on the shoulder at one of the meetings and told him I wanted to run him for president. Well, he finally agreed, and so I did my politicking. We had an excursion trip up the river in Washington one night. I went on the boat and I sat down with various people, presidents or heads of state associations, and talked to them. I got a lot of people lined up. That's when I put him up. This was Rex Allen. I put him up first for vice president. That's where I really did the heavy work by myself. All the other candidates had their pictures in the AIA mailings. Then I had to get his name on the floor of the convention with the names of two backers. Then they were voted on, and he became one of the three vice presidential candidates. He was elected. The following year he was put up for president. We had a very good committee, and we got him elected as president without any problem. He was a very good man. His architectural practice in San Francisco was chiefly hospital design. So then about that time, in '63, I received the [Edward C.] Kemper Award for service to the AIA and to the profession. In 1986 I attended the convention at San Antonio. There I was recognized by the convention for attending forty-eight conventions. [I] received a standing ovation.

VALENTINE: You haven't missed many have you?

LUNDEN: No. [I] missed one forty-six years ago, and that was at the height of the Depression.

VALENTINE: You were named to the College of Fellows for the AIA nationally.

LUNDEN: Yes, I was named to the College of Fellows in 1945. I received the fellowship for service to the institute and design.

VALENTINE: What are the honors that go along with that?

LUNDEN: Well, we are instructed when receiving it. The honors are that we are to continue to work for the profession throughout our careers. That was about all. There's no particular honor. It's an honor to be named a member of the College of Fellows. You can have the name FAIA after your name, which I use all the time, which is quite a high standing in the profession.

VALENTINE: You've also been honored by the local chapter just a few years ago. I believe in '83 they gave you a special evening.

LUNDEN: The chapter has an evening put aside for recognition, what they call the "recognition dinner, " at which I was honored. They had quite a nice turnout that night. My response dealt with people. I told them I was not going to talk about architecture, but I wanted to tell about all of the fine people I have worked with. I gave a sort of a history of all my fifty years with the Los Angeles chapter, its past presidents and other outstanding leaders, and the related interesting events of the last half century.

VALENTINE: You had quite a career with the AIA.

LUNDEN: Yes, it's been very enjoyable. I don't know whether I'll go to any more conventions or not, but if I do, maybe I'll get up to fifty some day.

VALENTINE: You're going this year, aren't you?

LUNDEN: I don't know yet. It's way down in the south at Disneyland [Walt Disney World] in Orlando [Florida]. We have a Disneyland here, so it doesn't enthuse me very much. It's kind of a warm time of year. But there are others coming up year to year.

1.7. TAPE NUMBER: IV, SIDE ONE
JUNE 8, 1987

VALENTINE: Mr. Lunden, last time we were talking about your activities in the AIA [American Institute of Architects] that led directly to some planning experiences for you. How did you first get involved in planning issues?

LUNDEN: Well, we had just built our residence at Manhattan Beach, California, and the community was just starting to develop a hospital. I was put on the hospital committee to help organize the needs of the hospital and then to assist in ways and means of raising funds for it. About the same time I was asked to become secretary of the South Bay Beach and Highway Association. A Mr. Willets of Palos Verdes was president. The purpose of this association was to try to return the beaches to public ownership and also to promote the highways for the South Bay area. In so doing, one of the first things we did while I was secretary was to bring the mayors of all of the South Bay cities onto our board. Then to supplement our work we held annual meetings, to which we invited all of the leaders in planning, including governmental, of the Los Angeles County area. We had some excellent meetings with most of the top people there, including the mayors of the surrounding cities and the planners. This committee accomplished quite a bit and encouraged some of the highways to be brought on down to Manhattan Beach and the city of Redondo [Beach], paralleling the Santa Fe Railroad, which came down through the centers. As a result, a number of highways were planned and put into operation. At the same time during this period, I was asked to serve Manhattan Beach as a planning commissioner. At that time there were several important matters, but one that sort of stood out at the time was the fact that there was the beginning of many highway signs that were being installed, which interfered with the appearance of the neighborhood. Efforts were made to stop these, and later on, as we know, restrictions have been put on the building of signs on freeways. The planning commission, as I recall, met at one session where we came up with a resolution which would forbid any more signs to go up on the adjacent highways in our area. We brought the motion down to the city councilmen, who were still in session at about 11:00 P.M. And there we found that the highway people had done some lobbying, and the council turned our resolution down.

VALENTINE: What year was this?

LUNDEN: This was in 1942 and 1943. As a planning commissioner, I became a member of the Southern California Planning Congress. At the time I was president of the Southern California chapter, AIA, in the forties, I was asked to give an address to the Planning Congress on the subject of postwar planning. Shortly thereafter, my firm was engaged by the Los Angeles City Community Redevelopment Agency to prepare a master plan for the Temple urban renewal project, the proposed site of which is located northeast of the Bunker Hill project and is larger. In inspecting the area, I found that it was one of the oldest areas of the city, and they had the original oil wells that were all pumping and had been hooked together with cable so they all operated in rhythm. However, the people had been there many years and liked their neighborhood and were very much opposed to replanning, in which case many of them would lose their homes. So they went to the city council and were able to stop the project, after we had prepared a master plan.

VALENTINE: Tell me about the proposed world's fair that you suggested for the city of Los Angeles after the war.

LUNDEN: It was a very interesting project which came to me. I was called by the [John Randolph and Dora] Haynes Foundation and asked if I would be willing to prepare a report on the proposed world's fair. It seems that Los Angeles County was opposed to a world's fair and that the [Southern California Area] Chamber of Commerce favored it. The Haynes Foundation was interested to learn about a world's fair and what it could do for Los Angeles.

VALENTINE: What was the Haynes Foundation?

LUNDEN: The Haynes Foundation is a very active foundation which is interested in social and economic problems. Their board consists of a number of leaders in planning, architects, attorneys, and educators. They sponsor the preparation of timely reports on important community projects. I prepared a preliminary study and presented it to Dr. [Remsen] Bird, who was chairman of the foundation at that time and also was president of Occidental College. I had come to the conclusion that in studying a world's fair we should consider its effect on the city and how it would promote a better Los Angeles as a result of it. In a conference with Dr. Bird, he agreed, and I was asked to proceed, broaden the scope, and determine what type of a world's fair would be the best for Los Angeles and also how it would relate to future city planning and major highways. The published volume was titled Community Development through an Exposition for Los Angeles.

VALENTINE: Why was the county opposed to the fair?

LUNDEN: It is hard to know exactly why they were opposed to the fair, except for the fact of the cost of a world's fair. I think for various political reasons entirely unrelated to its effect on the city. Whereas the chamber of commerce was interested in using the fair to enhance public relations and make for a better city, as it was done in San Francisco, where a world's fair created parks, and San Diego, where a beautiful park was created for the buildings that were left. So I proceeded with a study of a history of world fairs starting in Egypt, Russia, and other foreign countries, in addition to the United States, and included my findings in the book which I prepared for the Haynes Foundation. It also was a study of the world's fairs held in the United States, covering the statistics dealing with attendance, the cost, and what the final effect was on the community. In so doing, I contacted the people who had put on the world's fair in New York, and the president of one other world's fair sent me a large book which gave me a full description, pictorially and in writing, all about the world's fair, how it came out financially and so forth. And I received the same thing from the San Francisco people. So I had much material to work with and then proceeded to determine that the best world's fair would be to have a dispersed world's fair, and use this world's fair as a means of gaining freeways which would lead to all these dispersed areas. This would enhance the prospect of getting these freeways, so that when the war was over we could proceed with the building of the freeways and make work for the veterans coming home.

VALENTINE: So this was planned before the war was over?

LUNDEN: Yes. The plan for Los Angeles called for the use of the area which now has become Bunker Hill. That was planned to be the central unit of the exposition, where we would build permanent exposition buildings which could be used for civic purposes, such as had been done elsewhere. Then we had a center for an air exposition at the LAX [Los Angeles International] Airport, which was then a very young airport, and also a naval exposition at the harbor to enhance the value of the harbor. A Hollywood museum center, which is still being talked about, and it looks like we will soon get one. Also, a fair over in the Pomona fair area. And lastly, probably most importantly, the development of the housing over at the Baldwin Hills area, which later was built and developed into some very good public housing. The final report included illustrations and included the cost of the land, showing that the most economical land to be obtained for the center was on Bunker Hill. This was all put in the report. And when the report was published by the Haynes Foundation, Dr. Bird asked if I would give a talk on the subject to the student body at Occidental, which I did. The report was distributed and received good publicity under the title A World's Fair through Community Redevelopment.

VALENTINE: Were you planning on having people in their cars using the freeways to go from site to site, or were you going to provide some other public transportation?

LUNDEN: Well, there were already, in most cases, highways to the sites which were not necessarily the final freeways. There would also be buses, as is usual, except faster buses on freeways.

VALENTINE: What kind of architecture would you have suggested for a Los Angeles fair?

LUNDEN: I would say that the architecture would relate to the purpose and subject in use at each of the areas. And for the central area I believe the architecture should relate more to the local character, such as the Union Station, which is in keeping with the old tradition, Spanish tradition and so forth, and yet fairly modern in character. I think the exposition, of course, would have buildings a lot more flamboyant, but the more permanent ones should be designed with a view to their future use.

VALENTINE: Well, actually you were forty years ahead of your time, because when they had the Olympics here, that's exactly the way they did it, by having the sites dispersed throughout the county.

LUNDEN: Yes, that is correct. However, the Olympics were dispersed in a different pattern, but planned to meet with their needs, illustrating the same point which I had made. And I hope it has had some effect on what they did.

VALENTINE: Now, in discussing traffic, you were involved in other traffic commissions as well, weren't you?

LUNDEN: That's right. I became interested in traffic and transit when I first joined Town Hall [of California] in 1943 and became chairman of their regional planning and development committee, which I was chairman of for four years. Town Hall put out two reports during that period on traffic and transportation. When the city and the county became involved deeply in future transportation for its needs, I was appointed by Mayor [Norris] Poulson and County Supervisor John Anson Ford to serve on the fifty-member Citizens Traffic and Transportation Committee from 1954 to '56. We had a very active committee for the two years. As vice president, I had the work of the engineering groups to supervise. Mr. Joe [Joseph] Havvener of the Automobile Club of Southern California, traffic division, was assigned as chairman of the engineers subcommittee, which included county and state road engineers, who evaluated all of the proposals put before the commission. There were also experts involved from, I believe, Kansas City, who provided statistics and recommendations. There was an effort to get a line to Long Beach from Los Angeles in addition to the one out Wilshire [Boulevard] and to the [San Fernando] Valley. I recall that at the time the Kansas expert advised us that the lines in Long Beach should be stopped at Compton because there would not be enough traffic from that point on to justify it financially. This was just one of many suggestions that were given to us. At that time there was much consideration of monorail but the specific type of transit equipment had not been determined.

VALENTINE: So what kind of lines were you planning? Is this a light rail you're talking about?

LUNDEN: No, this was not a light rail. This was monorail or any rapid transit on rails. Light rail had not come into the picture at that time. More recently it has. I do not believe that enough thought has been given to light rail, because those who are forwarding it are trying to put most of it at ground level. In today's traffic that is not a practical solution. The light rail put on from San Diego toward Mexico is in an area where there is very little traffic crossing it. There's only ocean on one side. There it has been reasonably successful, but to put the light rail where the old Southern Pacific [Railroad] was, which would be from Los Angeles down through the Compton area to Long Beach, would cross many important streets, such as Slauson [Avenue], for example. In their efforts to get it started, most of these start on the basis of ground level to save costs. However, they are now realizing that most of these main streets will require [rails] overhead, and eventually a great deal of the light rail within the city areas will have to be elevated with city-center tunnels. I think it's a mistake to build them without elevating them at the start. I hope they will see the importance of putting the money up for the crossing above street level at most of the crossings before they complete the projects. Otherwise, there will be much money and time lost.

VALENTINE: So you think elevated is better than an underground system?

LUNDEN: Yes, the light rail has a purpose: to put them in a lower cost category. What is being done, even on light rail, is that they are tunneling as soon as they get into the heart of the city at both ends. Long Beach and Los Angeles. It's only the main transit lines that go up to the Valley and on Wilshire Boulevard that they're planning tunneling. And that is being done away with greatly on account of the problems with the soil. In '66, I was appointed a member of the Citizens [Advisory] Council on Public Transportation. It was not a committee dealing with the development system itself, but rather was for the purpose of public relations with the legislature and other bodies which had to provide the funds. I recall one meeting, which was rather an emergency meeting, at which they determined that a telegram would be sent to a number of the major corporations in Los Angeles stating that they wanted a certain sum sent in by each corporation to provide funds supporting transportation bills then pending before the legislature. That illustrates one of the purposes of this particular committee, to maintain progress in solving our transportation problems.

VALENTINE: You suggested a system for downtown Los Angeles for rapid transit called the "carveyor."

LUNDEN: Yes, that was very interesting. It started this way. Probably because I was transit minded, I picked up a magazine in which it mentioned that the carveyor system was being developed by Stephens-Adamson Manufacturing Company and the Goodyear Rubber Company. This was 1956. The little paragraph in the magazine simply stated that they had been awarded a contract to put in a carveyor system between the Pennsylvania Station and the Grand Central [Terminal] in New York. That intrigued me. And that night I developed an idea of a carveyor system for the central city of Los Angeles by placing it over the sidewalk on new light posts adequate to support it and lighting the streets and the sidewalk from underneath the overhead transportation line, which was a carveyor. My thought was to run a loop up Sixth Street and back on Seventh Street between the Southern Pacific station [Union Station] on Main Street and the Hilton Hotel above Figueroa [Street], and then put another loop running north and south on Hill [Street] one way and Broadway the other way. The purpose of a single loop on each street was to get away from the old Chicago overhead, which made a dark street and was very objectionable. This would be a very light transportation system. The next morning I called the vice president of Stephens-Adamson ' s in Los Angeles and explained my idea. He called back in a little while and asked if he could come over in the afternoon. He arrived with the vice president of Goodyear. We discussed the idea of these loops and another loop around the Civic Center. They were very intrigued with my idea and within a few days had given me a consulting contract which developed into a ten-year program to develop studies for Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Sacramento, which would include not only the carveyor but speedwalks. The speedwalk was a basic part of a carveyor system--instead of using rails, they used the moving belts. We also developed another more flamboyant system, much like the cable cars in San Francisco, except this was a carveyor running from Union Station to Dodger Stadium.

VALENTINE: Explain how the system worked.

LUNDEN: The system worked this way: I would put a station in about every two blocks. One illustration I made was a station at Barker Brothers on Seventh Street for example. What happens, the car goes along at fifteen miles an hour in the city, and when it comes to a station, it rolls off on a side conveyor which slows it down to a mile and a half an hour. The cars move along at a mile and a half an hour with six cars in the station all the time. So the people can step right into the car from a belt which parallels it, moving at a mile and a half an hour. They would step onto the beginning of the belt, with the car and the belt standing still in relation to each other when they step into the car.

VALENTINE: So the cars never stop moving?

LUNDEN: Cars keep going. And in talks I gave, a number of talks, I explained that a lady who was in there shopping at Barker Brothers, she buys a red dress and she has a choice of stepping into a blue car or a red car or a yellow or a green car. So that is how it operates. It slows down in the station to a mile and a half an hour, and then it speeds up and goes right back onto the main track. Therefore you can have six cars in the station, and each one would take off as it gets near the end of its station run.

VALENTINE: So these ran above the cars in the street.

LUNDEN: Yes. You came up to the second- floor station on a speedwalk.

VALENTINE: A whole different view of the city from up there.

LUNDEN: Yes. One advantage was that you're going along by the second-story windows of all the buildings. So one theory was that it would make the second floor more rentable, because you could exhibit all the goods and people could observe without having to walk. This gave quick transportation. They could get on and transfer onto another car going in another direction, and eventually have loops added around the city. By the way, this was incorporated in some of the master plans for the rapid transit system for the city. My theory was that it's much better for the rapid transit trains not to go through the city and have a number of stops, because the stops have to be fairly close together, and if they have a four-car train in the center of the city, you'll hardly get the last car out of the station before you'll have to start slowing down for the next one. So one of their plans incorporated a line tangentially to come in at Seventh and Figueroa and then go around the city and on to El Monte. At Seventh and Figueroa the people stepped off the rapid transit and stepped onto the carveyor, which took them to wherever they wanted to go within the city. We were asked by the chamber of commerce of San Francisco to give a presentation there, which we did. And for this I laid out a plan for the carveyor which ran from the railroad station, through the business district, and to the San Francisco civic center.

VALENTINE: So eventually the system would connect with other parts of the city. Would you have to drive into town and then use the carveyor?

LUNDEN: Yes. People would still drive as they do now on the freeways or take the rapid transit system. The carveyor system would circulate within the city. This system could be utilized in Long Beach or in Pasadena or in any other community area. By the way, that brings up an interesting fact that the public in general probably doesn't know about. Back in 1912 when I was in high school in Pasadena, I took part in a torchlight parade, and probably that's where I started my interest in transportation. I went down to Colorado [Boulevard] and Fair Oaks [Avenue] in the center of Pasadena one night and there found a banner hung over Colorado street, a banner about forty feet long and about six feet high on which was painted the letters "Pasadena to Los Angeles: Eleven Miles, Eleven Minutes." At that time what was proposed was a monorail which was to be similar to the one in Germany, which I found out later ran only fifteen miles an hour. But we had a band there and a torchlight parade. And I noticed also later in an ad in the Pasadena Star News that the Staats Company was selling bonds for the rapid transit system. So it was thought of pretty seriously at the time, but nothing ever came of it. But actually the first freeway in the California system was the one from Los Angeles to Pasadena, which is a very good freeway and still operating. In order to get good public relations, I added Mr. George Cronk to my team. Mr. Cronk was very popular. [He] had just completed several terms as city councilman. He helped me by opening doors and arranging meetings with people he knew. For example, he arranged a breakfast meeting of the Los Angeles City Council members one morning at the Pacific Stock Exchange Club on Spring Street, where I was able to present my program to the councilmen, and also a luncheon meeting of the Los Angeles County [Board of] Supervisors at the California Club. I developed a special project design for a carveyor system for the Los Angeles airport to serve as a second- level carveyor highway. The ground-level roadways had already become crowded, so I developed a plan for a second- level carveyor system which connected to all of the different airport stations. It made a loop around and then had a section leading to off-site parking areas where you park your car. There you get on the elevated carveyor and ride the loop to the satellite station serving your airline. In addition, from the loop there was to be an elevated speedwalk to serve the restaurant in the center of the airport. This entire second-level transportation system project was presented to the Los Angeles City [Board of Airport Commissioners], which accepted it subject to the approval of the general funding authority. We presented the proposal to them, but they did not approve the funding for it. This was in 1960, apparently twenty years ahead of the times. The Los Angeles Metropolitan Transit Authority in 1980 proposed a people mover for central Los Angeles. It was turned down by vote of the citizens, no doubt because of its cost. It was interesting that by this time I had turned my office over to an international firm of architects and engineers, Stu/Lyon Associates, who were also interested in transportation. Our firm participated in the competition for the design of the people mover system. We won second place in the competition.

1.8. TAPE NUMBER: IV, SIDE TWO
JUNE 8, 1987

VALENTINE: You also had extensive involvement in hospital and medical facilities. You were much associated with the Hospital of the Good Samaritan about the same time. How did that come about?

LUNDEN: This developed through Reginald D. Johnson, FAIA architect, for whom I worked as an office boy in 1915, as earlier stated. His father, Joseph H. Johnson, had been the bishop for the Los Angeles Episcopal diocese. Reginald Johnson was the architect for the new Good Samaritan Hospital in 1921. In 1943 he was on the board but was not interested in serving as architect on any new projects. When the matter came up of putting in a new cafeteria for the hospital, he asked if I'd be interested. I was and took over this project. This led to the design of a residence for the administrator and other small projects, and then finally to start a major alteration development, to modernize the old building. So I became very much interested in hospitals and started researching on my own, joining the American Hospital Association on a personal membership and obtaining their magazines. About that time I noticed there was a national competition for a small hospital and for a hospital and health center. Having had very little experience to date but having done some research work, and in order to learn more about hospitals, I decided it would be a good thing for the office to enter this competition. We had nearly completed the presentation drawings for the small hospital with a week to go. I took some prints home of the plan for the small hospital that night and found that with a few changes I could create a hospital health center by turning the plan at right angles and adding a health facility wing to form a garden court. This would give a chance for us to include the competition for both projects. I took them to the office the next morning and told my team that we had to work nights, that I would like to get a competition in on the hospital and health center as well as on the small hospital. We worked hard on it and entered both. After the judgment, we were notified that we had won first prize for the hospital and health center project. The winner of the competition for the small hospital was a Colorado architect who had had many years of hospital experience.

VALENTINE: Was the health center ever built?

LUNDEN: This was not intended to be built. It was a public relations project. It was to get hospital people and architects interested in better hospital design. There is a difference between that type of competition and others, such as a competition for a project for a city hall, in which the architects compete for the commission to design it. We were then engaged by the Methodist Hospital [of Southern California] in Los Angeles in 1943 to do some modernization of their hospital and also design a new clinic building. We worked at Good Samaritan Hospital for some thirty years on modernization of the old hospital building. We built a garage, modernized a nurses' residence, and designed a new gymnasium-auditorium. In 1953 we built a new Bishop Stevens Wing which housed a new maternity facility, surgery, radiology, pathology, and cobalt bomb unit. The plans for the Good Samaritan Hospital Medical Center were also developed for a $100 million new hospital and doctor's office wing, which was not built due to the severe inflation at the time. In 1954 we were asked to design the Los Angeles [City] Health Administration Building in the Civic Center to include various health facilities, such as testing labs, a central laboratory for Los Angeles, with complete health facilities for three downtown clinics on the street level. A few years later Los Angeles County took over the city health department. The health building was therefore changed in use to become City Hall South located at First and Main streets.

VALENTINE: In the Good Samaritan Hospital you had some inventions I'd like you to tell me about.

LUNDEN: We seemed to have the habit of trying to improve the design of hospital facilities and develop new details and equipment for the hospital wherever they were needed. At this time, in the forties, the subject of protection from explosions had not been addressed actively. It seems that they were having trouble with explosions in surgeries. It was due to the fact that the patient was given the gas and then wheeled into the surgery, and if on the way a gas tank should clink against a piece of metal, it would set off a static spark, causing an explosion which would kill the patient. This was typical for maternity wards sometimes as well as surgeries. When we started working in the old Methodist Hospital in Los Angeles, which was very old, we found they had been using the same system which had been used for probably centuries, where at the surgery table damp towels had been put on the floor at the base of the table to provide humidity to help prevent the static explosions. The surgeon and the attending nurse each had a chain which was grounded in the floor and hooked around the ankle to take off the static electricity and prevent an explosion. That was the old, old system. So in redeveloping the surgeries we-- At that time we installed the newest thing, a conductive linoleum for the floor, or similar product. The conductive floors were installed and all chains removed. However, we found that in cleaning they would roll the operating table out into the corridor, and when rolling a table over this linoleum, it would tend to bulge up in various places, which would reduce the life of the material. So my thought was to see if we could do something better. We knew that the Gladding McBean Tile Company was trying hard to come up with something in the way of explosion prevention. I was told by Mr. Filsinger, who was then with one of the companies producing the terrazzo or tile for floors of hospitals, that he was going to a convention or group meeting of similar companies in New York "where we can study ways and means of improving this explosive situation." So that started me thinking. And at Good Samaritan we were right up to the point of having to do something. I found that the latest thing approved by the fire authorities' office in Boston was that they had put metal or copper wires in between the tile to take the electricity off and to a point in the wall where it was controlled as to the amount that you can safely take off. Because if you don't control it you could shock a person to death. It had to be controlled with so many ohms of electricity. However, the first installation had in fact not been approved as yet. The fact that you had copper wires in the joints was not an approved method. So I proceeded to study the matter and found that carbon had a characteristic where the elements of carbon were all in one direction. Therefore it could be useful in directing electricity from it. So I developed an idea of taking a plastic material such as used in commercial kitchens for the joints between tiles, the waterproof joints, and putting carbon with it and creating tiles of it having nine small tiles for a square foot so that the sole of a shoe would always be on a conductive tile. And when Mr. Filsinger came back, I called him in and showed him what I had, and I said, "I wonder if you in your laboratory would research this and see if we can't come up with a conductive tile." He said, "My goodness. We've been studying this in New York for a week and we came up with no solution, and here you have the solution."

VALENTINE: Very good.

LUNDEN: I said, "Well, I'm not sure it's a solution, but I think it's a direction." He says, "You know, we have been thinking about this matter of making conductives for a number of years, and I'm going to have our research director take it over." So I sent him the data. They worked on it for about three weeks and then said, "We have come up with a tile which we think is going to work. We've got it to the right amount of conductivity, but need more tests. It has just the right amount of conductivity, but we don't have them mixed right because it isn't stable. We have to get it so it's uniform all the time." When it was stabilized we had it approved by the state fire marshal. We had the state fire marshal come down to the basement and we had put it in a floor, and he approved it. Then it was approved by the federal fire authorities. So we produced the tile and put it in the surgeries in Good Samaritan Hospital Bishop Stevens new wing. Then after more research, I found out that we could also use it for resurfacing old floors. It was put in over the old surgery floors in the General Hospital in Los Angeles [Los Angeles County USC Medical Center]. After a while the interesting thing was that the Oleon Tile Company, which was the main distributor who had been working with Mr. Filsinger, contacted Gladding McBean because there was a possibility of them buying the patent. My patent attorney researched it and made an application to Washington, and it was turned down. I said, "Why?" "Because back in Chicago about 1890"--about the time I was born, 1897--"an engineer had used carbon in concrete, and it made a conductive floor of carbon and concrete." That was the basic patent, so they couldn't give me a patent. So Oleon came in and said, "If we paid you a royalty, we'd soon lose all the business, because all our competitors would do it for nothing." But they said, "Tell us how much money you spent on this, and we'll send you a check," which they did, covering my costs. Some years later, five or ten years later, the fire marshal changed the rules and required that a strip of this conductive material at least one inch wide had to be put in the floors with equal spacing. In other words, one-inch strips of carbon, then one inch of noncarbon, etc., which did the work in the same way. But what happened at this time was that other means, newer materials, came into being in the way of improved rubber and other products with conductivity. It took the place of conductive tile in some projects. Actually, I did get a patent on a piece of conductive equipment, because the carts that came into the room had to have a method of getting the static from the cart to the floor. So I developed a pad which is very similar to the pads or the carpets used at front doors which have little rubber teeth coming up. I developed a conductive rubber with that type of teeth, a little round pad with the teeth contacting the floor, and fastened it to each cart. When the cart came into the surgery, it rubbed the static off onto the conductive floor. I got a patent on that. That was used at the Good Samaritan Hospital. The other patent was a special bassinet. When we started designing it, the maternity ward head nurse said that they were having trouble with the bassinet equipment of a major manufacturer. So we asked for a demonstration of the problem. The bassinet was placed at the side of the bed. It had a pivoted arm topped with the bassinet for the baby. Now, for the demonstration with the head nurse in the bed, the arm is swung over the bed. Nurse: "See, when the mother tries to sit up to take care of the baby, the mother's knees come up and hit the arm holding the baby. How can you cure this problem?" We advised that we would study the problem and try to find a solution. So Mr. [Roger] Hayward, my partner, and myself went to work on it. Mr. Hayward developed a special arm to take the place of the single swing arm, so that when the bassinet is placed at the bed, the arm, a double- jointed arm, swings the baby and bassinet over the bed and can be placed at any desired angle. The mother can have the baby to one side at any angle needed to be taken care of and then swung back over the bassinet. This is made so that it could be on either side of the bed. And then we designed a drawer which is double ended to put the various powders and other things in, and it could be pulled out at either end. Then underneath the drawer we had a hamper which was very much like the typical kitchen hampers that could be tilted out. This was lifted out, no hinge, and taken away and emptied. So we got a patent on this bassinet contraption, particularly the double-jointed arm. We offered both patents to the hospital, but they didn't want them. The UCLA maternity center adopted these bassinets for their new facility.

VALENTINE: I want to go back and talk about some of the architectural projects and catch up with your career. One of the most intriguing was the Man Triumphant monument that was never built. Can you tell me how that happened?

LUNDEN: Way back in 1931, shortly after we started a practice, we were approached by Mr. David Edstrom, a sculptor from Sweden. For years he had dreamed of developing what he called a Man Triumphant monument. He came to our office hoping that we could assist him in a further development of the monument, which was proposed to be placed at the entrance of Los Angeles harbor. The monument was proposed to illustrate the progress of mankind and to crystallize in the architecture and sculpture the soul and intent of our Constitution. A formal agreement was prepared with three parties included: David Edstrom, sculptor and originator; Roger Hayward, collaborating sculptor; Samuel Lunden, architect. We held conferences with the community leaders for some financial support. Our office prepared some preliminary studies, plans, and perspectives of the monument. However, financial support was not forthcoming and all work was stopped. Our three- party agreement was never signed. It is my hope that someday Los Angeles harbor will have a Man Triumphant monument to greet immigrants from the Pacific, as the Statue of Liberty does for those coming in from the Atlantic.

VALENTINE: Describe what this monument was going to look like. What was the sculpture?

LUNDEN: The sculptural monument was proposed to be built on an island created in the harbor, and would include some surrounds in keeping with the monument itself and leading into a type of museum inside, which would suitably depict history related to the United States and the people coming into our country. The exterior would have pylons which would illustrate electric pillars of flame, and it would be a tribute to Thomas Edison, who might be called the "Great Light Giver." At the entrance to the platform of the monument would be two reclining groups representing night and day, the human family asleep and awake. Four statues, one at each corner of the monument, would illustrate the four mental states which are present in all activities of man. The frieze on the base of the monument adjacent to the figure exemplifies the abstract ideas of the four figures.

VALENTINE: What was the sculptural figure on top?

LUNDEN: The gigantic group of figures towering above the monument represent the human family gazing steadfastly toward the western sky. Inside the monument a great vaulted chamber is dedicated to the achievements of man. Around the base of the room, a frieze of relief figures in limestone marshals the supermen and heroes of the human race, men who have been leaders of civilization from Confucius and Moses to Edison. Above the frieze a narrative in mosaic tells of the physical discoveries of the earth, from the wheel to the electric light. In the apex of the vault is a great mosaic representing science subduing the four elements. The monument will convey to the beholder that service, however humble or however great and honored, is an integral unit in the incessant, unremitting, invincible carrying on of the human race in its conquest of the universe. Mr. Edstrom has published articles in several magazines, such as the Svenska Dagbladet; The Star, Washington, D.C.; and the Los Angeles Times.

VALENTINE: Who was he? How did he find you? Do you know what else he had done?

LUNDEN: I don't know how he found us. He may have come in through Mr. Hayward, who was interested in sculpture. He may have come in because of the [Pacific Coast] Stock Exchange. You see, this has some sculpture on the facade. He probably liked it and he said, "Who's this guy?" On my letterhead is an article describing the monument. It starts, "Man Triumphant, a proposed monument to be dedicated in the memory of Thomas Alva Edison and erected in the harbor--"

VALENTINE: That would have been a stunning monument.

LUNDEN: It says here, "The Man Triumphant monument is a gigantic mass of granite and steel rising 250 feet from the water resting on an artificial island 300 by 370 feet. Access to the monument from the mainland by boat." Quite an article.

VALENTINE: What is that article from, the one you were reading?

LUNDEN: * [Mr. Lunden added the following bracketed section during his review of the transcript.] *[An article I wrote November 13, 1931. It was an article explaining the meaning of the elements of our design of the monument. Since my associate developed the details, I believe the article was written from notes prepared by Roger Hayward. Mr. Edstrom was very pleased with our designs and our understanding of his concept and purpose of the monument. This is evidenced by his latest article, "The Story of the Man Triumphant Monument," written after we sent him photos of our design of the monument: "I made several new sketches, but not until I met an architect, Samuel E. Lunden, and his colleague, Roger Hayward, did the whole project mature into a complete creation. They not only incorporated all my Man Triumphant ideas, but also made use of what was good in the old Cain's Dream monument. The procession of the gods, supermen, and heroes here contribute to the Man Triumphant theme. They are here the milestones of progress and not the symbols of defeat and death. "] But Hayward ' s design--this is our design--is different. It doesn't have the two pylons. You could have lighted up these pylons, but, as I recall, the ones he has with the pylon whites-- Remember, we had them here a while ago. I don't remember there were sculptures here. Do you remember? I think maybe it's back here. [leafs through papers] There you go, right here. These are different, just one or two. Here's the two pylon. No, that's--

VALENTINE: That's the same.

LUNDEN: That was Hayward 's. Well, there you see-- I don't know what he had to show. I don't know if he had any drawings. So this is Roger's first sketch, including the two pylons. Roger put the sculpture in here. There, you see, he refined it, and so you still can have that coming up, but he doesn't think that's of any particular interest. Actually, he was trying to carry out Edstrom's idea, who sat in with us. It shows the four figures and all that. I don't think the island's big enough, the area there. I don't think that is the thing. So that is that. After that we have the--

VALENTINE: Why don't we talk about Torre Vista?

LUNDEN: Torre Vista?

VALENTINE: How about the La Brea tar pits museum [Page Museum] ?

LUNDEN: That came much later.

VALENTINE: Okay, how about Torre Vista then?

LUNDEN: Torre Vista is '30, '31. That was the beginning. The tar pits come much, much later.

VALENTINE: Let's talk about Torre Vista, and then we'll take a break.

LUNDEN: All right, all right. After that comes [G.] Allan Hancock. I think we'll do Torre Vista and end with Al Hancock. That would be good to take those two.

VALENTINE: Tell me about the Torre Vista project. What was that? Where was it?

LUNDEN: Back in the year 1930 and '31, a friend introduced me to a man whose name was Richard "Hardrock" Davis. He was a mining developer and was also interested in developing a new city in the area north of Los Angeles on the other side of the mountains in the Burbank area, or within the city of Burbank. The property which he held at the time was at the end of a proposed new highway called the Whitnall Highway, which was to go through the middle of the city, he proposed, and into a tunnel which would go through the mountains and come out at Vermont Avenue in Los Angeles. So it was my understanding that he got the city of Los Angeles to complete plans for the Whitnall Tunnel and that they're now on file in the Los Angeles City Hall, although nothing has been done to construct the tunnel. His property consisted of fifty acres which he kept as a potato patch between Verdugo Avenue, Hollywood Way, California Street, and Oak [Street] in the city of Burbank. I was requested to prepare a master plan for this new development. This included, one, a center for a multistory transportation building to be the terminal of a monorail up the Los Angeles River from Los Angeles. This transportation feature I added. Two, a thirty-story hotel with a rooftop dining facility and a tower for Mary Pickford to anchor her dirigible before going down to dinner. That I added. You know, in those days we talked about dirigibles. She would just step out and go down one level to the dining room. Three, a multistoried office building; four, a financial building and bank, multistory; five, a large auditorium-theater. The four buildings, being multistory--perhaps thirty stories high or thereabout--would have a moving sidewalk at the twentieth- floor level which would start at the transportation building. So that when you got off the monorail, you went up the elevator twenty stories and got on the moving sidewalk, and it would take you over and through each of the four buildings and end you up at the transportation building. Thus you would come to this new city, do your shopping, do your banking, do your dining, everything you wanted to do, without going down onto the street. Another feature which I introduced was an underground service system of tunnels under the center, and no trucks would be allowed on the main streets. All service trucks of any kind would service the four buildings from underneath. Actually, this area would become a great parking area, and there would be dining and other facilities down there, very much like Montreal, which has extensive shopping at the underground level, where they're connected to the subways and everything else. This means you're creating a town with a street level free from service trucks. Also, a lot of the people who have no reason for going to the street level could do anything they wanted at the upper level. In other words, if they came in their car to the parking underneath, they would simply go up in any building, to any floor or to the twentieth story and go where they wanted via speedwalk or today by carveyor, people mover.

VALENTINE: Why was this never built?

LUNDEN: Well, it was too much ahead of the times, I guess. Mr. Davis could not get enough money together to finance it. He was primarily a miner with a vision. I, as a beginner in architecture, had not become acquainted with ways and means of raising the money at that time.

1.9. TAPE NUMBER: V, SIDE ONE
JUNE 8, 1987

VALENTINE: We were talking about the Torre Vista project.

LUNDEN: Yes. The large auditorium and theater was to be a multipurpose structure which would take care of music in all its forms, including theater, movies, etc. Some studies were made to expand the property for apartment areas with condominiums on Verdugo Avenue.

VALENTINE: So that was a later expansion. Was there any housing in the original plan?

LUNDEN: This was all part of the original.

VALENTINE: Oh, it is.

LUNDEN: The original planning called for the expansion to include-- You know, when you build you plan the whole periphery as a matter of fact.

VALENTINE: This was going to be a whole city.

LUNDEN: A whole city center. Mr. [Richard "Hardrock"] Davis took care of his potato patch for years. He was mining for gold, silver, and copper in the San Bernardino Mountains. He could not finance his project and the Burbank school board took part of his property, over his objections. He protested, because they only wanted to take seven and a half acres which were on one side of the Whitnall Highway. This would ruin the use of the whole project. But the school board overruled him and took the property. I received a mining claim for my services, and my entire family went up on weekends and worked on the claim during the war years.

VALENTINE: Ever find anything?

LUNDEN: No. There was gold and copper, but not enough to make it worth mining. For a number of years it was required that we work on the claim in order to keep it, but there never had been any major hole dug except for testing. Although there was a hole on the adjoining claim, which was about twenty feet deep and had been a silver mine in the old days. Later on we gave the claim to USC [University of Southern California] to use for exploration by their geology department.

VALENTINE: Did anything ever come of it?

LUNDEN: I don't know what they did, but I just didn't want to spend the money, a hundred dollars a year. And the kids were growing up. It was a pretty high mountain climb too. I wouldn't want to climb it today. There are rattlesnakes up there too.

VALENTINE: Tell me about your relationship with [G. Allan] Hancock and a La Brea tar pits museum.

LUNDEN: I first became aware of Allan Hancock's background in relation to the growth of Los Angeles. Allan Hancock had given the La Brea tar pits area to the county of Los Angeles. In the early 1940s the county wanted to build a museum facility in the pit area. I was engaged by the county to do some preliminary studies for this and worked with one of the top experts in this field at the [Los Angeles] County Museum [of Natural History] at Exposition Park. We developed a rather interesting low structure over one of the pit areas. The plans called for cutting down through the pit into the basement area and having a stairway down, so that on the way down people could look at the striations all the way up from the surface down as far as we went. That was one of the features. We had developed a rather interesting elevation, which had been approved as planned, and were about to start working drawings when the county manager or administrator, who was then on the priority of materials war committee in Washington, came into a meeting at which we were to get approval to proceed and said, "I'm just in time to tell you that there are restrictions on steel and we cannot go ahead with any construction project without special approval. I do not think you will be able to get this project through. You have a steel structure, " and so forth and so on. And so the project was stopped at that point. Some ten or fifteen years later, I saw in the paper where a new museum was to be built on the same site. They had appointed another architect for the project. That was the end of that.

VALENTINE: Your relationship with Allan Hancock continued though.

LUNDEN: When we were appointed architects for the [Edward L.] Doheny [Memorial] Library, Dr. [Rufus] Von KleinSmid, president of USC, had in mind that my firm should be involved in other buildings facing Alumni Park, as did the Doheny Library, in order to develop buildings of compatible design characteristics. About that time C. Raimond Johnson had been appointed as the supervising architect for USC. He wanted to be architect for the Hancock Building, which was the next one to be built. Captain Hancock had given money to build the Allan Hancock Biological Research Foundation Building.

VALENTINE: And who was he?

LUNDEN: Allan Hancock was the same person who had given the La Brea tar pits to the county. He had an old home on Wilshire Boulevard. When I was advised by Dr. Von KleinSmid that C. Raimond Johnson wanted to be the architect for the building, he asked me if I would be willing to serve as consulting architect. I agreed. I decided to work with Mr. Raimond Johnson, who had a small staff, and he asked if I would loan my design staff to his office to assist in the design of the building and working drawings. Being short of work, particularly since I didn't get the job, I was very happy to loan them to Mr. Johnson. I came to Johnson's office almost daily and worked with him and Roger Hayward on the project. The budget did not allow for the use of Texas limestone to match Doheny. So I had about two dozen samples of concrete mixed with different colors in order to match the limestone on Doheny. This was very difficult, and finally we found a material to lighten the concrete so that it gave a fairly good match. The building then was designed with this colored concrete and brick similar to Doheny. We used a mixture of concrete and brick in various designs with a bit more contemporary design, not being able to afford the elaborate designs of the Doheny. A part of it was to build the music building, which was in the north wing and on which we placed life-size sculptures of the various animals from the La Brea tar pits, because of Captain Hancock's relationship. On the facade are full-size concrete sculptured elephants, or whatever they were called at the time.

VALENTINE: Yes, they're beautiful. Who did those sculptures?

LUNDEN: We engaged Mr. [Merrell] Gage, who was in charge of sculpture for the USC school of architecture. He did a very good job for us on Doheny on the court entrance. So we engaged him to do these sculptures, including on the side pylons, where we have some of the La Brea animals, as well as on the facade. By the way, the music hall [Ramo Hall of Music] was built particularly at the request of Mr. Hancock, because he was a musician and he had a quintet. He actually built this entire facility to accommodate the collections which he had made over years from the Galapagos Islands. We built into the building a great stack for preservation of both dry and wet specimens. The stack of wet and dry specimens was surrounded on each floor with laboratories so the specimens could be taken out directly and put back in conveniently. Captain Hancock then had the research ship which was known as the Valero III. With the assistance of my partner, Mr. [Roger] Hayward, we designed a complete replica of the Valero III, which hangs over the east doorway to the Hancock building. Hancock, as a musician, on his regular trips to the Galapagos always stopped at the capitals of the South American nations that were on the way and called on the royalty, entertaining them with his quintet. He therefore asked us to design a music hall that would be suitable for good music of all types. In that we developed a frieze with a collage of photos of the scenery around the Galapagos from photos which he gave us. This frieze covers the entire length of both east and west walls. It's very interesting. I was a little bit worried about achieving satisfactory acoustics for the music. Mr. Hayward was quite an expert on acoustics, and he designed the interiors in such a way that he felt would be adequate. However, Captain Hancock wouldn't accept the music hall until he took his quintet in and tried it out. And when he had finished, he told me it was perfect as far as he was concerned. And then he ordered a broadcasting studio built on the upper floor, which was added at a later time and which is now used by USC for their broadcasts - Another interesting feature of the building is that it includes the first-floor portion of the Wilshire Boulevard mansion, which he also gave to USC. The main floor had some interesting rooms, and they were brought down in sections and put together on the site over a basement which we had built to house various research facilities. Then offices were built on the floor above. Many things had to be done because the building had to meet our earthquake requirements. As a result, the old brick-surface face was taken off and the exterior walls were reinforced and Gunited, and then we added brick to match the rest of the building on the outside. The rooms on the main floor include the old French renaissance music room with an organ. It has beautiful glass chandeliers, very large, which we took apart and had cleaned, piece by piece, which cost $450 each. The story about the interiors and the beautiful French furniture is that there is more than one version. The version that I have constructed from research is that the furniture was bought for the home of Emperor Maximilian, who was assassinated. The ship with the furnishings had reached New Orleans when notice was received there of the death of Maximilian. The Hancock family apparently obtained all of the furniture and had it in storage until they were able to use it in their Wilshire Boulevard home. That is now in existence in the same rooms where it had been on Wilshire Boulevard. This area of Hancock [Park] is now a heritage cultural monument. And it is open for visits by appointment. And there are many visitors and it's well worth seeing.

VALENTINE: That's a fascinating story.

SECOND PART JUNE 11, 1987

VALENTINE: Mr. Lunden, let's talk some more about the projects you were working on.

LUNDEN: There are a number of projects, but I've selected the more important ones over the years. We have discussed the Hospital of the Good Samaritan and other hospitals. In addition to those, we were consulting architects on the Veterans [Administration] Hospital in Phoenix, Arizona. We tried to become architects for the project and conferred with Colonel Thompson of the [Army] Corps of Engineers, for whom we had been doing a great deal of work for Edwards Air Force Base during the war. He advised us that he would like very much to have us be considered for this project, but, unfortunately, he said the regulation was that we should have had experience on three hospital projects. Having done mainly the Good Samaritan Hospital and the Methodist Hospital [of Southern California] alterations, we lacked one qualification. However, he said he realized that we had done a lot of research in connection to Good Samaritan, and he had hoped that we would be able to compete, but under the rules he could not include our firm. However, it seems that a problem had arisen which hadn't been contemplated. One day about a month later, Colonel Thompson called me and said, "Mr. Lunden, would you like to be consulting architect to the architects that have been selected?" I said, "I think you're kidding." I said, "I didn't qualify to be considered for the main hospital and you want me to be consulting architect." He said, "Well, I had a call from Washington right now. They said the architects from Phoenix, Lescher and Mahoney, have designed three hospitals, but they haven't been involved in a major hospital such as this. They had named a consultant who had been with the government in Washington, and they have turned him down, because according to the rules he was not eligible for a certain period of time. They asked me to select the consulting architect, and I'm selecting you, on only one condition-- that you design the hospital." I said, "Well, if you're serious, I'd be very happy to accept. What do I do? Do I go to Phoenix to see the architects?" "No," he said, "you just wait. I'll tell them. They'll come to you. You will settle your fee with them with one understanding, that you're going to do the designing. " So this is the way it happened, and we became the consulting architects. They came over and made an arrangement and said that their spaces were not very large in their office and could we do the design stage in my office. I said, "Well, I was doing the Good Samaritan, and I didn't have room. But I will open another office across the street where a space is available." Then I said, "I'd like to have you work with us by sending over one of your key men to take charge of this separate office under our direction," which they did. We had a very tight time element on it, and within a three-month period we had completed the preliminary drawings, which were taken back to Washington, checked and approved, and we were authorized to proceed with the working drawings. My contract called for them to do the working drawings in Phoenix. However, when the time came, one of the partners came to me and said, "We would like to continue in your office over there. Would you also help us on the working drawings?" Which we did. They were turned out on time with their top man in charge of that particular office. The work was completed satisfactorily. They supervised the construction work, and a very good result was obtained.

VALENTINE: What year was this?

LUNDEN: Nineteen fifty-one.

VALENTINE: Can you explain the difference between an architect and a consulting architect on a project?

LUNDEN: Yes, there's quite a difference. The architect has prime responsibility and the consulting architect normally is asked to do specific things, particularly in connection with the concept and design of the project. But depending on what his contract is, it may be limited to certain things or it may go on all the way through like it was on the Hancock Building, which has been discussed earlier. We were asked to design Temple Israel on Hollywood Boulevard in Los Angeles. This was to include the synagogue with an educational building and a social hall. I made a historical review of synagogues and found that in Spain and other places when they needed a synagogue, they would often acquire one of the Catholic churches that had been abandoned and then modernize it, with the result that sometimes synagogues were built with a cruciform plan. Because the Jewish people were accustomed to filling the synagogues mainly during their special periods, we found it desirable to use that particular form with a long nave and a crossing, which the building committee were pleased to accept. In this way we put the seats in a partial circular form near the platform and ark so that all the people in the front part of the church would be facing toward the center. Throughout the year when they didn't need the entire nave, it could be closed off if desired and still make the church appear that it was fairly fully occupied. This plan was therefore an asset. We were also engaged to design the stained glass for the windows in the church, and we designed a special carpet with a symbol in it.

VALENTINE: Who was the consulting architect in that job?

LUNDEN: Mr. S. Charles Lee, who was familiar with Jewish doctrine and symbolism, was the consulting architect.

VALENTINE: You were certainly involved in a variety of building types at this time. What else did you do?

LUNDEN: We had just completed the Hyperion Treatment Plant for Los Angeles when we were asked to design the central administration building for the [Los Angeles] city health department, which was to include a central laboratory for the city and downtown clinics on the street level. In 1954 I happened to have a very young architect from South America where they had built in Sao Paulo a number of tall buildings. My concept of that was to have a simple horizontal effect with the windows, with heat-resistant glass being continuous on each facade without mullions, which meant placing the columns inside of the windows. I designed a special double track for the windows to run on. This gave the character to the building, with fluted aluminum facade above the windows. I believe it was one of the earliest of that style. There hadn't been many till recently. Now if you approach the newer area of El Segundo just east of the Pacific Coast Highway, you see buildings being built of this same character in 1988. Another unusual characteristic was the use of lightweight concrete for a ten-story structure for the purpose of saving structural steel, due to the priority requirements during the Korean War at the time of the design. A few years later the county of Los Angeles took over the function of the city hall, at which time the city converted the building to the Los Angeles City Hall South.

VALENTINE: You mentioned the Hyperion Treatment Plant. What was that?

LUNDEN: The Hyperion Treatment Plant for the city of Los Angeles was under fire at the time I lived in Manhattan Beach, so I was well aware of the pollution of the ocean from that Hyperion plant in the city of El Segundo. The federal government, according to a note in the L.A. Times, was going to make a federal grant to help update the plant and did require, nevertheless, a major overhaul of the plant in order to avoid the disposal of sewage into the ocean. I knew that the city engineer, Mr. [Lloyd] Aldrich, had a reputation of not giving out city projects to private enterprise. Nevertheless, I wrote him a letter requesting consideration in the design of any structure at the Hyperion plant in the forthcoming program. I heard nothing for a year and then was requested by phone to come to Mr. Aldrich 's office for an interview. He advised that he had just received a federal order to have the construction drawings ready for bids in three months for major structures of the Hyperion Treatment Plant, including a power and blower plant and a filter and dryer building. He asked me if our firm could undertake this project and meet the deadline, and I said that we were equipped to do so. We were engaged for the project in 1951 and completed it within the contract schedule. We then received an additional contract to design the double stack for the plant and an incinerator building. This was a very interesting and successful project.

VALENTINE: How would you describe the style?

LUNDEN: The style was very simple, necessarily, for an engineering plant. The power and blower building was in concrete, very contemporary, but a rather simple block form contained the boilers. I'm glad you asked that question, because it brings up an element that I had meant to add or include. And that was that the plant was so designed that it was able to furnish the electricity, was able to turn the sewage gases into electricity with enough electrical power to run the entire plant and also to sell power to Southern California Edison [Company]. This was accomplished by four generators placed in the new boiler plant. It was interesting to note that about thirty years later, the MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology] Club of Southern California decided to have a meeting at the plant. During this meeting the chief engineer who spoke to us said he wanted to point out that the plant had been designed to create electricity for the operating of the plant and that it was still operating very successfully in selling power to the city and the Edison Company.

VALENTINE: What engineering firm did you work with? Or did you do that in-house?

LUNDEN: That's a good question. In order to do the project in three months, operating as I did on the basis of not doing structural or mechanical work within my own organization, but instead selecting the best engineers from the outside on a consulting basis-- I had Paul Jeffers and Norman Green, two structural engineers who had been doing work for me on various projects. So in order to get the work done on time and having two major projects to do, I selected two structural engineers. Larry Erick for one and Mr. Green for the other. The electrical-mechanical was done by my usual mechanical-electrical engineer, Ralph E. Phillips. But he, in this case, had already been engaged to do the major mechanical and electrical work for the rest of the plant, so that coordination worked out very well.

1.10. TAPE NUMBER: V, SIDE TWO
JUNE 11, 1987

LUNDEN: In 1959 we were called in to design a harbor police facility. This was to be in the San Pedro area. In the award of the Harbor Police [Station] administration building in San Pedro we received word that we might wish to give consideration to a joint venture with a young firm in San Pedro. We called them and reviewed their background experience and then asked them to join with us in the award. Joncich and Lusby, architects, of San Pedro wanted experience in public work. They assisted in the design stage and administered the construction stage. The building was modern in design to be seen from the nearby Harbor Freeway. For that reason we used large precast vertical concrete slabs on the exterior, with large-scale, cast-in, aggregate surfaces.

VALENTINE: How did it come about that you got these jobs for public buildings? Why was your firm chosen?

LUNDEN: Well, we had successfully designed the Hyperion Treatment Plant and the City Hall South, and therefore, having performed satisfactorily, we were on a list for consideration. And in this case we decided that we would like to help this young firm, and since the request had come to us informally from a high authority, we thought it would be advisable to do so. It worked out very satisfactorily, and this firm has since been doing other county and city work and are very successful. Shortly after doing Hyperion or the City Hall South, which had started out as a health building, we were also awarded the health administration building for the San Pedro area, which was a rather modern design, a one and a half story brick building.

VALENTINE: Do you prefer public work or private sector commissions?

LUNDEN: I don't prefer either. It has been my policy to go after and accept work in both fields, and one almost has to do that because there are cycles when there is a lot of public work and there are cycles when there isn't much. The same with private work. So throughout my career I have taken the position of taking whatever comes to me or whatever I have to go after.

VALENTINE: What's the major difference between them, the advantages of each?

LUNDEN: Well, in private work you don't have all of the restraints placed on you by the various rules of each public body. They each have their own rules and they have to formally approve every stage. We have had cases where administrators have problems with the public. The public comes before the bodies and says they want thus and thus in that particular building, and sometimes the architects have to make changes during the progress of their work in order to accommodate these things. This does not happen usually in private enterprise.

VALENTINE: Now, in the 1960s you did a couple more projects for USC.

LUNDEN: Yes, it was interesting that we had been doing work for ' SC over a number of years from time to time under different administrations. In fact, over the period starting back in '31, by 1987 we had worked for five different administrations, through five different presidents. In 1968 we were called in and asked to design the Fluor Tower men's residence, which is located on Jefferson Boulevard on the west side of the campus. We had some years earlier designed a three-story women's dormitory building, which included the Elisabeth Von KleinSmid [Memorial] Hall and the international residence hall [Marks Hall], on the east side of the campus. In the new men's residence, we operated on a new concept where it was a multistory building of about ten stories. It had four apartments per floor with four rooms for eight men, two to a room, and a lounge and a lavatory with shower facilities all contained within each apartment. We also had near the elevators a public lounge for general use. On the main floor we had the usual caretaker's apartment and public rooms. Both of these buildings were of modern design with brick and concrete exterior.

VALENTINE: And what else did you do at USC?

LUNDEN: In '76 we were asked to modernize their main auditorium, which was then known as the Bovard Auditorium. We were requested to prepare a number of studies to find out the best way of updating an aging auditorium. The final design called for extending the stage for better use, and with it taking out the old curtains and putting in new curtains. For this we designed a curtain which circled the front of the stage, which was rather unique. A decorator was engaged to assist in refinishing the entire interior. New seats were provided throughout the auditorium, and it was renamed the Norris Cinema Theater, the name of the donor of the renovations.

VALENTINE: And you're still working on the Doheny Library, aren't you?

LUNDEN: Yes, the Doheny Library we designed in 1931, as co-architects with [Ralph Adams] Cram and [Frank W. ] Ferguson of Boston. About thirty-five years later my firm designed the addition to the Doheny Library, in 1964 to '67. On that we were asked to prepare sketches for the expansion of the library, primarily to double the book capacity. A plan was conceived to move the east patio forty feet to the east and use the old patio area to double the size of the old stacks. In addition, two stack levels were added under the new patio. The north wing was extended east to form the north side of the new patio. In this way we were able to more than double the book capacity without changing the character of the building design. We did so by taking the patio apart brick by brick and stone by stone and also relocating the sculpture over the new entrance. The patio is in constant use for special events, as well as for individual student use. We were recently engaged to study whether to expand the Doheny Library or place the needed facilities in a separate building. After a year of study we recommended, and our advice was accepted, that we do not expand the present library, as any new facility was so extensive that the resulting plan would be difficult to administer and its bulk would overpower the design of the present library. After this decision was made, it was decided to air- condition the present building. Having decided to retire from active practice, I had just closed my office at this point of time. Ralph Flewelling [Jr.], architect, was commissioned for this work, which included some renovation work since the original library was now fifty-five years old. He in turn engaged me as a consultant to assist in the air-conditioning and renovation work as it related to the arts and architecture of the interiors. We were all working together to preserve the original interiors of the library. It was completed in 1987.

VALENTINE: Tell me about the Las Palmas School [for Girls]. How did you get that commission?

LUNDEN: The Las Palmas facility was a school for delinquent girls. The county was anxious to upgrade their facilities. Supervisor John Anson Ford, whom I knew very well and who had previously recommended me for other county work-- I had not heard of this project until called to be advised that he had selected my office for this work. Supervisor Ford said that I was to be architect for one of their most interesting projects. He said that modern facilities had been developed for delinquent boys but not for girls. He wanted this to be a prototype for a girls' facility. It was not to be like a jail but a pleasant place to live, with restrictions only through a suitably designed enclosure to control egress and ingress to the facility. In our design many things had to be taken into consideration. I determined that there would be no jail bars in the project. Therefore the windows had to be fixed with break-resistant glass in order to get away from the jail appearance and be able to go to a modern design. This meant air-conditioning of the entire structure, for which we needed additional budget. We had to go to the [Los Angeles County] Board of Supervisors for extra money. The plan called for three sections for the living quarters. Girls were divided into the average, those that had real difficult problems, and, thirdly, those who were earning the right to leave and be placed in foster homes. Each one of these three groups had living quarters, single rooms, one for each, a game room, a room for Ping-Pong tables and so forth; and a writing room. Each group also had their own enclosed patios. Each housing unit also opened toward a central garden court where they could have their own garden. At the opposite side of the mall was a public school unit of eight classroom buildings. And at the end of the school building group was an auditorium-gym. In the wings of this auditorium building we had the arts and crafts and also a music room. So it was a fairly complete living facility with an educational unit as well. And there was also an open playground facility. We designed a swimming pool to go next to the gymnasium building. But there was a controversy that developed when it was presented to the board of supervisors, and we were delayed because some of the supervisors felt that public elementary schools did not have swimming pools, so why should these girls have swimming pools? So it was not included in the building program at the time, but a women's group got together, raised the money, and it was put in shortly thereafter. We surrounded the entire compound with a high brick wall for security, which was rather pleasant and did not look like a jail facility. Entrance was through the administration building, which also housed the nursery for the children of the visiting parents, where they could leave them while they went in and visited with their daughters. We also included a medical health wing.

VALENTINE: How many girls did this facility house, and what ages?

LUNDEN: They were teenagers. The facility housed a total of two hundred girls.

VALENTINE: What special design problems were there, given the nature of the facility?

LUNDEN: Well, of course the major problem, when we left out bars, was to replace the bars with something that would keep the girls in the facilities where they lived. There we had to use nonbreakable glass. For the lowest level of girls there, we used three-eighths-inch nonbreakable, because they had been known to throw chairs through the windows. In the rest of the facility we used one-quarter- inch nonbreakable glass. Not being satisfied with the statement of the manufacturers, I told them I wanted to have them set up a piece of glass, the biggest size that we were going to use, and I would come down and do the throwing. I went down to the glass plant, and it was all set up. I took some very heavy objects and threw at them, and the glass withstood it, so we were satisfied. We had to use stainless steel mirrors, because we could not have any breakable glass in there to prevent its use to injure themselves. We put the usual type of special switches which are used in a number of types of buildings for security purposes, where you are unable to throw the light on and off except with a special key. On the day of our dedication we had a very large event down at the school, and the county supervisors were among the celebrities. At the ceremonies we walked through with Dorothy Kirby, who was then head and for whom the project has now been renamed the Kirby Center for Girls. We went into the classroom which was for the most restricted girls. It was rather dark in there. One of the supervisors asked Ms. Kirby if it was possible to turn the lights up to give them more light. She said, "Yes, it is, but I will have to go and get the engineer, as it is only operated by a special key." Well, one of the girls had overheard it, and by the time Ms. Kirby had said that, the lights were on. The girls had devised a hairpin or some device by which they were able to control the lights. So these were some of the special problems that had to be considered.

VALENTINE: What about the wall around the outside?

LUNDEN: Well, the wall was about fifteen feet high. We designed it as a rather colorful brick wall with certain breaks in it. It turned out to be very satisfactory.

VALENTINE: What sort of amenities did you put in there to make it more pleasant and less like a jail, other than the fact that there were no bars?

LUNDEN: Yes, I have already described the amenities inside, such as the girls' lounge, where they had facilities where they could heat water for making drinks while they used the room as a game room. The patio for each building was a rather pleasant thing in which the girls could take care of planting and whatnot. And then if they go out their front door, they step right into their own garden, which they could take care of. It was like a very pleasant mall surrounded by the three buildings on one side, a school on the other, and the gym at the other end. And all of these things were of interest. The character of the building was determined by the fact that it was not desirable to have the girls get up on the roof, which they had done on the older building, which had slope tile roofs. So in the design, if you see the building you will note that we have a sloping aluminum canopy that comes down from the flat roof to the head of the windows. It also acts as a shade for the windows and makes it difficult to climb up on the roof. And these were in colorful aluminum, different colors as you went around. The pleasant brick color for the exterior of the building. The classrooms faced a central mall of their own which ran the full length of the buildings with nice planting. We felt that the music facility and arts and crafts were a great help and interest to them. The gym was used so that they could have boys in there for special dances. So it was multipurpose and very attractive, together with a swimming pool. It was so nice that one day shortly thereafter in my office, in response to a request by a teacher, I was showing her pictures of the Kirby Center and talking about its facilities. When I got all through, she said rather facetiously, "What do I have to do to get in there? It's so beautiful."

VALENTINE: It was considered a model institution at the time, wasn't it?

LUNDEN: Yes, it was a prototype, and it was broadly published. It was published rather extensively in the New York Times brochure shortly thereafter. Las Palmas had been renamed Kirby Center.

VALENTINE: In addition to the Kirby Center, you also worked at California State University, Fullerton. What are the similarities and differences there?

LUNDEN: Well, the University Center building at California State University in Fullerton, California, was actually a student building. The way the universities operate, the students in many universities, I believe, put the funds they charge every student into a total fund, and then they are able to get low interest loans from the federal government for building it. So the students had collected $4 million this way over the years and were ready to build their facility. Walter Reichardt, a former partner of my partner, Joseph L. Johnson, had contacts with the university and came to see us and asked if we would joint venture with him. He felt there would be a better chance to obtain the project, because there was rather stiff competition from other architects. We formed a joint venture and were awarded the project. It was to be a student building with a $4 million budget, which gave us a chance to develop something worthwhile. We developed a design consisting of several units, each one to serve its own purpose, surrounding a central dining court, to one side of which opened the kitchen and the serving area. It was a cafeteria-type service. In addition to that, there were several smaller court patio areas in relation to the entrance to the other various facilities. We also had a lower level with some outside malls. This was for particular social purposes, including a pub and a fairly large bowling area. This was really the student's floor, where they had various facilities. The project is very informal and attractive, and because it surrounds this central court it really has four facades with varying gardens, porches, and different characteristics, all very modern. It's a very useful and pleasant student facility.

VALENTINE: The last thing I have on my list is the Western Federal Savings and Loan Association Building alteration.

LUNDEN: In addition to new buildings, we have done a great deal of modernization work in the central area on Spring Street. But the outstanding one is the Western Federal Savings and Loan Building, which is located at Sixth [Street] and Hill Street and was updated to become their headquarters. It was an old building--one of the oldest in Los Angeles, turn of the century--known as the Hollingsworth Building, thirteen stories. We completely remodeled it for a cost of $4 million. Everything in the building is new except the structure and the boiler plant, and we retubed the boilers. The elevators are old, but they were modernized. There was quite a problem in renovating the building, and one of the first things that the owner did, at our recommendation, was to remove the miscellaneous doctor and dental offices scattered around the building, each of them requiring a lot of plumbing which would have had to be replaced. So by removing this element of their tenants, we were able to retain the others during the operation. We did so by doing two floors at a time. We remodeled the two upper floors and then moved the tenants up with new office plans, which we had planned for them during the time of that operation. We did two floors at a time all the way down. In order to do this, we also had to change the exterior, doing two floors at a time. This worked out very well. Finally the Western Federal Association occupied the second floor for their own administrative offices. We were allowed to develop those in a very attractive manner with very pleasant equipment. The main floor offices were also modernized to a degree. In order to make it possible for tenants on each floor to work at night if they wished, a separate air- conditioning plant was placed on each floor except for one central cooling tower on the roof. The work included all new electric service and lighting fixtures throughout, including new acoustical ceilings. The toilet rooms and facilities were all relocated and renewed. The old central stairway, which would not meet any modern codes, was closed up, and two new stairs were put in to meet the code, one at the front and one at the rear of the building. An all new exterior was constructed with European marble in vertical panels between new windows. The new windows had colored metal panels between at floor levels. In the elevator lobby a new terrazzo floor was put in. Upon completion, the modernized building received the 1984 Cornerstone Award from the Los Angeles [Area] Chamber of Commerce.

VALENTINE: I wanted to ask you what role competitions play in an architectural practice.

LUNDEN: It is my opinion that competitions are a great asset to an architect. How many architects compete, I do not know, but I would assume that not a very large number. The reason is that there are many architects involved in residential work and smaller buildings, on which there usually is no reason for competitions, although there are some residential buildings for competition, including one I shall mention here, which are put on usually by brick associations or such organizations for their own purposes. I've always believed that competitions are good for the personnel of any office of architects. It's a chance to look away from the daily routine, time to think of solutions which are best for the purpose of a project, then to make a proper presentation of the solutions so that the attention of jurors will be called to your presentation. This certainly is helpful in your own work in obtaining projects. Sometimes the type of jury that is selected will indicate in general terms the character of the design which would be most acceptable. To indicate the broad scope of competitions, I'll indicate first the ones we've entered into over the years but received no award. First was the Oregon state capitol, which was put on by the state. Then the Kentucky post office for the federal government. The third was a most interesting one. It was known as [Theodor] Herzl's tomb, in Israel. As I recall, our design included a series of vertical monoliths. The fourth was the Jefferson Memorial competition, which was put on in Missouri.

VALENTINE: Where the [Gateway] Arch is now in Saint Louis.

LUNDEN: Yes. The winner of that competition prepared the design of the memorial arch, which is well known.

VALENTINE: What were your various designs for these projects?

LUNDEN: Each was designed to suit its purpose, some stately and monumental, others contemporary and informal. Let ' s take a look at the ones on which we received awards. The first prize was a competition for a mountain cabin. It was shortly after the Depression, in 1935, when architects had been out of work and many offices had been closed. Therefore, there were some 257 competitors. While I was doing the [Pacific Coast] Stock Exchange [Building], it so happened that we won first prize, which was a great surprise.

VALENTINE: Was it built or was it a paper competition?

LUNDEN: It was not built. It was sponsored by the [California] Lumber Association for publicity purposes. But it was broadly published in various magazines. No doubt other mountain cabins have been built using this design as a model. The first prize was $1,000.

1.11. TAPE NUMBER: VI, SIDE ONE
JUNE 11, 1987

LUNDEN: This was also in the year 1935. It was a national competition by the American Hospital Association. We won first prize for a small community hospital and medical center. It's interesting to note that at that time I had just commenced work at Good Samaritan Hospital [Hospital of the Good Samaritan] and had not yet had one year's experience, although I had done some alteration work for the Methodist Hospital. It was in order to get better acquainted with hospital design that we undertook this completion. It was surprising, then, that we did win it. I already have mentioned that we did not win the hospital part of this competition. There were two competitions, one for the small community hospital-- We did the hospital first, on which we did not get an award. But we had about a week left when I took our preliminary designs for that home, and that night I decided that it would be interesting to see if we could do the other competition, which was for a hospital and medical center. We did that by turning the plan at right angles and filling in one wing. I've covered this before, haven't I? The third one was a second prize for a brick house put on by the Simons Brick Company. The fourth prize was for the Fort Moore Memorial in the Los Angeles Civic Center area. The architect winning first prize was commissioned to design the memorial which was built. As consulting architect to Lyon Associates [Inc.], I participated in developing the competition for a people mover for Los Angeles. For this award the firm placed second with a $10,000 award. I think we did well to win in about one half of those we entered.

VALENTINE: How do you decide which ones to enter?

LUNDEN: Well, I generally consult with my top people, and we discuss whether we have time. And if we don't have time, are we willing to work overtime on our own to forward our chances? And if we all agree we should do it, then usually two or three of the top people will pitch in between our regular projects and do outside time if necessary. We all work together, and it becomes quite an interesting event in the office and, I think, is a great asset. We have covered at least ten projects in our effort. I think it's amazing when I look at the total, because of all the work that we've had to do. And I doubt if there are many offices that could say they have been in as many. I want to add that there's still one other type of competition that I was in, which I think is quite unique. In 1935, right after the Long Beach earthquake, I was designing the Hermosa [Beach] Elementary School buildings which had been destroyed partially. We renovated the classroom building, which adjoined the auditorium, but we had to tear the old auditorium down. Before I was authorized to start the auditorium building, there was a fellow architect who asked the board to have an opportunity to win this commission. So I was asked by the Hermosa Beach school board to participate in a competition in which they wanted to check our technical knowledge. So one evening the board met in a building at the Hermosa Beach pier, where we stood up in front of the board and for one hour asked each other technical questions about materials, methods of construction, and design. I won the competition and got the commission to design the auditorium. This was the most unique type of competition, probably the first and the last.

VALENTINE: The jury probably didn't know the right answers anyway.

LUNDEN: I would say one wouldn't expect any school board member to know all the technical answers.

VALENTINE: Did you break even financially with these competitions? I know they can be very expensive to an office. Did you win enough to make it worth it?

LUNDEN: No, not moneywise. I think you win enough in experience and the esprit of the office. You don't go in for that financially, except occasionally, such as the-- Well, even in the one on the people mover there were two phases in the commission. In the first phase you got nothing. But we were selected to do the second phase, and the competition stated that those who were selected for the second phase were to get $10,000. That paid for our second phase but not the first.

VALENTINE: I'd like you to tell me about your trip to Russia. How did that come about?

LUNDEN: Well, this was something developed by the American Institute of Architects [AIA] as a cultural exchange with the Russian people. I do not know whether it was started by the Russian architects or the American Institute of Architects. However, it was through the American Institute of Architects that we were advised of this group. I believe a general notice went out asking who would be interested. I replied that I would be interested and was selected to be one of the group. So Mrs. [Leila Allen] Lunden and I joined the group of some 125, which included 55 architects.

VALENTINE: When was this?

LUNDEN: It was in 1968. This was to be a short tour, about ten days. We were at our summer cottage at South Dennis, Massachusetts, prepared to leave from Boston by plane, when we got word on August 22, 1968, that the Russians had just invaded Czechoslovakia. We were advised, however, by the institute that the tour was to go on in any event. Our group went over in one large plane and changed planes in Amsterdam, where we were put on two Russian planes. At Moscow we were met by well-educated, attractive hostesses, who were to be with us for assistance throughout the tour. We were then taken to the new three-thousand- room Hotel Russia, a large three-story building in Moscow which was directly across from the Kremlin in Red Square, as well as Saint Basil's Cathedral, which was built in the sixteenth century. We had a good room facing the court. I went down to the lobby to get a subway map and found it full of people. I could not tell whether they were Americans or Russians. I was surprised by that. Then I noted so many of the men had shoes with perforated leather tops. I thought at least maybe I could identify the Russians at the dinner meeting with the Russians when we met that night. I decided to try my shoe theory. I was talking with a Russian architect in English when I noticed a pair of perforated shoes step in front of us. I looked up and then my theory blew up. It was one of our delegates from Saint Louis. We toured some interesting housing projects. The Russians, whenever they wanted to build several multistory apartment buildings on a new site, they set up a concrete-mixing plant a block away and used quick-curing concrete. They poured precast panels for the apartments and hauled them over to the site and put them in place practically over night. This made for faster construction. However, I found in examining the work that the workmanship was very poor. The finish, as well, was of a poor quality. We visited a contract site and found women working, doing various things from ditch digging to job superintendent. From our room in the hotel, which had work under construction, we could hear the voice of the lady job superintendent hollering at the Russians working under her. However, at the same time we noticed one morning that a big concrete truck had come in and dumped the concrete right on a concrete driveway. And the men would come along with a big metal container with handles at each end and fill it with concrete and carry it over to where they were working. After a while two women came over to the pile of concrete with one of these containers, but half the size, and they set it down. They didn't start filling it right away. They stepped over to a fence, started fixing their hair and so forth. Anyhow, then they got to work and filled the container with concrete and took it away. So apparently they do change the equipment to suit the women, but women seem to do everything that there is to do in the construction field. We were taken to see a ballet in the Bolshoi Theater as one of the scheduled items. We saw Don Quixote in their beautiful concert hall. The balcony in the concert hall was so built so that it sloped toward the stage, and I wondered why that was. Well, at the end of the program I found out. At that time many of the teenagers and young folks, college people, rushed down to the front of the stage from all levels, stood there, and applauded all of the cast. Some brought them flowers. We were quite amazed. We had never seen anything like that in America. Apparently they take these cultural events very seriously over there. They had another floor above the auditorium. At intermission we went up by escalator. It was one large room full of food on counters, tables, confectionary, everything. It seemed that crowds all went up there and spent probably twenty or thirty minutes enjoying themselves before they went down for the next act. We also held a symposium in Leningrad with the architects. The AIA architects showed slides of American architecture. In Leningrad we were taken to the office of the chief architect. The office really consisted of a whole floor of models. They had models of all kinds of buildings that they were going to build, public buildings, parks, and so forth. We asked the chief architect if any of these would be built. He said, "They'll all be built. but I don't know when." I said, "Well, won't you have to have them approved by each city commission?" "No," he said, "I am the architect for all of Russia, and what I design is built. The only question is when. Because the Politburo, the chief authorities in Russia, state how much money is to go to each city and when. " He said, "We do this this way. You'll find here the complete design for the whole complex, the whole apartment complex. We don't do it like you do in America, put it all into buildings. We have the master plan, and when the first money comes we'll build the first unit. But when we build the first unit, we will also build a community building. We'll do all the grounds. We'll put in the swimming pool, everything, but there will only be one building. When more money comes, we build the other buildings. So everybody has the use of that whole facility from the very start." That was very interesting. Leningrad and its surrounds was a most beautiful place. Of course they have the Hermitage and many museums there, some of the best artwork in the world. A canal runs right through the center of the city. They say the Russians are very restrictive of what you take pictures of, but I went out one morning early and I found one of our group out there with his brush painting, and the Russians watching him painting the canal. So I took pictures of that. On the island, or one part of Leningrad where the czar's palace was, there are many, many waterfalls, pools, and beautiful trees, I call it the Versailles of Russia. Very beautiful place. One thing of interest was that in Russia the trolleys are operated by only the motorman, with no conductor. But as you step in the center of the car, there's a red box to put your money in and get a receipt. I asked how that is accomplished, how many people pay and how many don't. "Well, that's no problem, because we have inspectors that ride around in the cars and they take note what happens. And if a young man doesn't pay his fare, he gets called in and his picture is taken and a full-size picture is hung in his place of work showing that he has cheated. "So," he said, "we have very little cheating." We went on from there for a short visit to Budapest in Hungary and then Vienna.

VALENTINE: What was the Russian architects' reaction to the pictures of American buildings that you showed them?

LUNDEN: Well, I think the reaction was very good. It was a little bit hard to talk very much with the Russians, except with the leaders. I think it certainly was interesting. They seemed very content and enjoyed what they saw. We in turn were very interested in seeing what they did, some of their better buildings.

VALENTINE: What building types were they working on? What was most important to them at the time?

LUNDEN: Well, they were mostly apartment houses. We would stop and look at apartments. They said that they didn't have time for us to go up inside the apartments, but I was in the lobby looking around and a lady came in with bundles, and I helped her open the door and said, "How do you do? You have a nice apartment." And she pointed and said, "Come on up, " so I went up, looked it over. It was very interesting. They're very small, but they're all alike. They have two rooms alike: one's a bedroom, one's a living room, and in between there's a little corridor. And in this corridor at the end is a kitchen, along the corridor is a little refrigerator, and so forth. It's modest but gets by.

VALENTINE: How would you describe the style of the buildings?

LUNDEN: The design of the buildings is not of particular interest. They're just rectangular boxes. Some of them are rather interesting in the way they placed them on a master plan. But they're just like a lot of our own apartment houses.

VALENTINE: Functional.

LUNDEN: Just straightforward, about ten to twelve stories high, concrete- -poor concrete, not very good quality in the buildings we examined. All right, about the subways. I had heard a lot about the subways and was very anxious to see them, so I bought a subway map. One of the men on the trip was a former Russian. He was an architect in New York. He spoke Russian well. And he and one other gentleman and I went on a subway tour. I got to the subway and opened my map, read the station names on the map, and then read the sign. The sign was in Russian, Russian hieroglyphics, you know, didn't mean a thing. The Russian was with us, so we did pretty well. The subway there was very deep, and as you enter you'll seem amazed. You look down about three stories, and it's continuous. The thing goes straight down, no breaks in it. And when you get down there you're in an art gallery, marble, statues, everything, beautiful art gallery, and very simple of course. When you look to go to the train they have a wall built there, real marble, no imitation marble. And when the train stops-- The doors of the train are spaced, and the train stops, so all you get to see of the train is the doors that open. You don't see the rest of the train at all.

VALENTINE: Really?

LUNDEN: You don't have a chance to fall onto the tracks.

VALENTINE: Hmm, that's interesting.

LUNDEN: So you step right into the car. And then you get off at a station. And each station is different in its architecture. As they go out they're a little more simple, but they're all done very artistically. The subways seem to work very well. I didn't see any graffiti. They wouldn't have a chance to see it when the car stops, and they wouldn't allow it.

VALENTINE: Can you get most everywhere on the subway?

LUNDEN: I don't know really. We went just to see the subway. We went to two, three stops only. I would say where there are subway lines you'll get where you want to go. Like in San Francisco, you get off at this station or at that station, but they don't go everywhere. You have to take your buses or streetcars from each station.

VALENTINE: Could you travel anywhere you wanted to?

LUNDEN: Yes, I did. I went by myself, had to do some shopping and so forth. I went up at night in probably dark streets and stopped people, asked them where I could buy an article, how far it was and so forth. I got pretty good answers from people that knew enough as to what I was asking about to help me. Also I took a ride on the river, and you're not supposed to take pictures of any public works and things like that. I sat down next to a very nicely dressed gentleman, and it turned out he was working in one of the art galleries. I asked him some questions. He answered the questions rather clearly. I said, "People in Russia look just like the people at home in the USA. I can't see the difference." "Oh, " he says, "but you know down here in this southern part of Russia they're all black." I said, "That's just like the United States in the southern part. That's where the majority of the people are black." Then I decided to test him out. I said, "We got here just after the Czechoslovakian invasion, and I haven't seen anything in any papers I could read here." I said, "What's happening on it?" He just kind of smiled and said, "I won't discuss it." He didn't want to discuss anything. So I went out and took a picture of a ship coming the other way. Of course it happened to be at a beautiful bridge. But that was interesting. You see some beautiful things. They have another place like the Kremlin, a very pleasant place out along the river, where I understand the wives of the men of the past royal families or all the past emperors lived. It's a smaller compound but very beautiful. You see all the buildings with the gilded domes. The Kremlin's a very beautiful place. Most of the work, I believe, was done in the old days by the Italians. These churches were built by Italians. The churches are all museums in a way now. You pay a fee to get in. Some of them show you how they were built. They have forms showing how they raised the columns and all that. They even teach rehabilitation in the universities there, special courses so they can work on this rehabilitation work.

VALENTINE: That's good. They care about their past.

LUNDEN: One other thing is that they have three tall buildings that stand out above everything else, must be twenty stories. They all look alike, and you see them when you tour around the city. One's a hotel, one's an office building, and the other one is a university. Outside they all look alike. But going through the Kremlin is quite a thing. On Sunday morning all the tourists come in with their cars and all the buses come in full of people to pay their homage at Lenin's tomb. And then they have the art galleries there. Where you go in there's always attendants, lady or men attendants in each room, to watch over the treasures. They have some very good exhibits, including ancient armor. I think they deal more in art and culture at the level of the people than we do here.

SECOND PART JUNE 15, 1987

VALENTINE: Mr. Lunden, you once said, "I've had three careers: architecture, Town Hall [of California], and MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology]. " Explain what you meant by that.

LUNDEN: Well, recently I was asked to give some information in an interview for a newspaper article. In studying and preparing for it, I had a problem in trying to discuss the whole range of my activities. So finally I decided to break it down into three occupations or three endeavors. One was the practice of architecture per se; the other was serving the community through various agencies, including Town Hall of California, in which I had worked since 1943; third, the continuing work with Massachusetts Institute of Technology in assisting them to raise funds for students, faculty, and general facilities.

VALENTINE: What is Town Hall?

LUNDEN: Town Hall is an organization which serves the community, and at this point I would like to explain that in my opinion it is very important for the young architect commencing his practice to commence, at the same time, serving his community and society as a whole in order to become known. To mention some types of specific organizations: there are the chamber of commerce; charitable organizations, organizations like the United Way; educational, such as the university; professional societies, local and state and national; religious [organizations]; and political organizations. It has been my practice to spend at least one-tenth or to be a tither of my time out of my practice to serve society. To illustrate, let me review some of these activities. First I would like to talk about Town Hall. In 1943 I was invited to join Town Hall by my mentor, Reginald D. Johnson, a prominent Pasadena architect mentioned previously in this report. He asked me to join the regional planning and development section of Town Hall, of which he was chairman. He was at the time preparing a report on legislation needed to provide California with a law to create community development agencies throughout the state, designed to convert and rehabilitate deteriorating community areas throughout the state. I accepted, and we worked for a year with an attorney on the committee who was provided to us by the [John Randolph and Dora] Haynes Foundation. When we had completed and prepared the proposed legislation, we turned it over to such organizations as the Los Angeles Area Chamber of Commerce, the Associated General Contractors of California, Inc., and others. They carried forward with the material, working with people in the state capital, legislators and others. Bunker Hill, in the center of Los Angeles, today is a result of this legislation. This is but one example of Town Hall's outreach to the community. I then became chairman of the regional planning and development section, serving as chairman for four years. In 1958 I was asked to chair the membership committee. I served for four years, bringing the membership up from 1,767 to 3,422, and again in 1970 to 5,848 members. In 1960 and in 1981 I received awards for service to Town Hall. I've continued to promote membership in Town Hall over the years. In 1986 to '88 I have served as an adviser to the membership committee. In 1984 I was made the honorary life governor of Town Hall.

VALENTINE: And you're still very active in the organization, going to meetings all the time, aren't you?

LUNDEN: Right. I was elected to serve on the Town Hall board of governors in 1955, and had served nine years when I was elected president in 1965. At that time efforts were made to increase the production of Town Hall reports by the sections, as was done in the Bunker Hill report in 1943. An endowment fund was created to provide income to use in increasing Town Hall's outreach for service to the community. I have served as chairman of the endowment fund committee since 1965. The first goal of the fund was $500,000, which was completed in 1987. In 1984 I was asked to serve on the board of governors.

VALENTINE: That's quite an honor.

LUNDEN: Yes. I'm enjoying my continued participation in the affairs of Town Hall.

VALENTINE: You've also raised a lot of money for MIT.

LUNDEN: Yes. May I put in Republican Associates?

VALENTINE: Yes.

LUNDEN: In 1961 Robert Dockson, then dean of the commerce department, USC [University of Southern California], completed his term as president of Town Hall and became president of the Republican Associates. Since I had worked with him on membership for Town Hall, he asked me to join Republican Associates and be his membership chairman, which I did. This organization has developed a library on Republicanism open to Republican candidates to develop background information for their campaigns, enabling them to deal with their opposition, both Republicans and Democrats.

VALENTINE: Have you always been a Republican?

LUNDEN: Well, it goes back further than that. When my father came from Sweden, it wasn't very long before he became a Republican.

1.12. TAPE NUMBER: VI, SIDE TWO
JUNE 15, 1987

LUNDEN: I had heard talk about Republicans in my early youth, particularly when McKinley was assassinated in 1901. So naturally I became a Republican when I became of age and have been supporting them ever since.

VALENTINE: Tell me about your involvement with MIT.

LUNDEN: My involvement with MIT has been since 1950. I graduated in 1921 but first was very active in starting my own practice. And as I said before, I became involved in Town Hall in 1943. It wasn't until 1950 when another MIT graduate who was an architect contacted me and asked me to please join and help them, which I did, serving on the board [of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology Club of Southern California] several years before being elected president in 1955. The MIT Club of Southern California is a very active organization holding meetings monthly and more often, both for educational and social purposes. This serves to hold all graduates together for the support of their alma mater. A portion of our dues are sent to MIT each year for scholarship purposes. Symposiums are held from time to time, bringing MIT professors, their officers, and others to Los Angeles to participate. In 1956 I was asked to chair the western regional conference, which was held in Los Angeles. It was held on Saint Patrick's Day. I had the mayor of Los Angeles, Norris Poulson, open our session. The chairman of the MIT board of trustees, Dr. James R. Killian, came and spoke to us. Also at that meeting we recognized Donald W. Douglas for his work as a leader in the airplane industry field. He was also an MIT graduate of 1914. The MIT graduates throughout the country assist in the review of prospective students. A council is set up in each region for this review. Every student who wishes to enter MIT must appear before one of the counselors, unless they go to Cambridge and appear. We interview these people, the prospects, not in reference to their grades or their standing in the high school, but rather to interview them to obtain a picture of their personality. We deal with the student only as a person and his extracurricular activities. Do they have leadership qualities? Do they participate in student government, athletics, and other high school or community activities? This is the type of person we are looking for. We are not looking for Einsteins. We want a well-rounded individual. We want to know how they spend their summers while they're in high school. What is their general attitude toward higher education? What are their goals? We then send MIT a written report. I served as a counselor for several years. I was requested to serve on the alumni fund committee in Cambridge, on which I served for several years. We put on an annual drive, a worldwide drive addressed to all alumni. I received the Bronze Beaver Award for service to MIT in 1965.

VALENTINE: How many students do you interview each year from this region?

LUNDEN: Oh, we have right now about thirty- five counselors in the Los Angeles County area. And I would think we will interview about three hundred.

VALENTINE: How many of that number would be accepted, do you think?

LUNDEN: About 10 percent of those interviewed may be admitted. The freshman class, about 1,200. Total undergraduates, 4,800. Graduate students, 4,800. We are not a large institution in numbers of students. Actually, most of the students will list-- We ask them to list what other universities they are interested in. They usually apply to three or four universities, all of them pretty much to the larger universities, such as MIT, Harvard [University], Princeton [University], [University of] Pennsylvania, and so forth. So that after our information goes in and they receive all their other information, examinations and grades, then MIT looks over the 100 percent, and they boil that down to about 50 percent. Then that 50 percent will be sent notices, and MIT then, knowing from experience how much-- Even before they had the computer going they knew that, but they probably now use the computer. But they know that the number will drop to about 25 percent, because these students will then choose their own college where they prefer to go and where they might get the best scholarship. And then at that point MIT picks the number that they need, that they have room for, and then they will add a certain percentage to that for those that will for one reason or another drop out before they enter. That brings the number entering down below 25 percent of the original crew. And for entering undergraduates I believe it's right now about 1,200 a year or something. That's all. We're not a large institution in number. We have about an equal number of postgraduate people.

VALENTINE: Do you have an equal number of men and women?

LUNDEN: No. About one-third of our undergraduates are women. We've always had women as members. About twenty years ago I recall they posted in the alumni review the name of a lady who was a graduate who was a hundred years old. It was only recently, in about the last ten years, that the wife of one of our graduates gave enough money to build a dormitory for four hundred women. It was very popular. When she was on a visit later, she gave another sum of money to duplicate it. So now we have a dormitory for eight hundred women. And that's all we have probably. Because we require that all students live on the campus the first year, so we have to have dormitories for them. In 1960 I was asked to serve on a major fund-raising committee called the corporate development committee, on which I have now served twenty-eight years. The committee meets the fall of each year in Cambridge, consisting of over one hundred business and industrial leaders. It is headed by the chairman of MIT Corporation, currently David [S.] Saxon, who was formerly president of the University of California. We are advised through presentations, including charts and slides, of the current standing of MIT and of the desired and needed programs to achieve the results needed to keep MIT as the world's leading technical institution of learning. Last year we were advised that our five-year program would be to raise one half billion dollars, or one hundred million per year. The overall sources of funds are set forth and the goals for each are established. Each of us have assignments in various fields and work on them in our own communities with leaders who come from Cambridge from time to time. We have our own fund-raising organization at Cambridge, and the alumni are the fund-raisers. For example, in our last drive about five years ago, I was able to open the door to the Seeley Mudd Foundation, and with the visits of the past chairman of the corporation. Dr. James R. Killian, we received a donation which when doubled by MIT and by the National Cancer Institute resulted in an eight-million-dollar new center for cancer research at MIT in 1973. The center has already over one hundred past collaborators who are now serving cancer centers, medical facilities, and universities throughout the world. That's very interesting.

VALENTINE: That's very good.

LUNDEN: I'm very proud of that.

VALENTINE: You should be.

LUNDEN: I was pleased to receive the outstanding recognition of the Bronze Beaver Award for service to MIT. In 1980 I was honored by the corporate development committee's award of the Marshall B. Dalton Award for service at MIT.

VALENTINE: You must feel very good about that.

LUNDEN: Yes.

VALENTINE: You've had a very busy life with your practice and your charitable work. What do you do in your spare time, if you have any?

LUNDEN: Well, I had a couple of hobbies. My first hobby really started long ago. That was photography. I remember in my teen years that I had a box camera, which was the thing of the day. Now I have a semiautomatic Mamiya-Sekor camera, which will give me up to a one-thousandth-of -a- second shot. I took some pictures with that in Russia of the palace fountains in the Leningrad area which came out beautifully, with the drops of the water standing still in midair. This was at the place which I call the Versailles of Russia.

VALENTINE: Do you photograph architecture or nature?

LUNDEN: Well, of course from studying architecture, when I was over to help rebuild France in 1921 upon graduation my photography was particularly architecture, naturally. I took considerable pictures at that time. At some future time when I went over to study hospitals, I took pictures of hospitals particularly. But other than that I like to photograph nature. My wife and I went to Scandinavia and took a cruise to visit the fjords and North Cape. So we had a chance to take some very fine pictures of nature, both day and night. I have one picture of the midnight sun, which I thought I had missed, but I found when I put my slides in my projector, on I had one picture with the sun taken about one o'clock in the morning at North Cape. Also, for a while I started taking moving pictures. On one of my trips to Scandinavia I met with Helge Zimdall, who was one of the leading architects and a professor in Gothenburg University. He took me on a tour for a couple of days in his car to some of their better buildings. I took a number of pictures of the buildings, and I asked him the name of each architect. So when I got home I decided that I would do my own editing, placing the name of the architect on each slide. And after several years, after a trip to Mexico, I discontinued the moving pictures and have gone on with slides. On one of my trips to Australia I received two awards from the cruise line afterwards for slides I had entered. They were very pictorial. They had to do with some of the bamboo huts there and also with a scene where the natives all go out in the water and form a cordon in the water. Then the men go out in the boats and thrash the water, leading the fish into the center. The passengers sat in grandstands on the beach watching this. And after a couple of hours, when the men came in, they had the captain go out there with a spear to spear the fish. They only found one fish about two feet long. My other major hobby is deep-water ocean fishing. For eight years I had a twenty-seven- foot cabin cruiser with two ninety-horsepower motors. I fished the waters between Los Angeles harbor and Avalon, Catalina Island, for marlin in the summer. On one trip my fishing partner, an engineer, Jim [James] Butler, caught a 132-pound marlin. I now go fishing at Cape Cod, Massachusetts, for blue fin in Boston bay off of Wellfleet.

VALENTINE: Tell me about your family.

LUNDEN: Well, I have a very nice family. My wife Leila and I have three children and three grandchildren. Alice Marie [Lunden Olsen], our eldest, attended Stanford University and transferred to USC in order to prepare for a degree in music, performing string bass viola. She has played with several major symphony orchestras, including [the] Houston [Symphony Orchestra], [the] Dallas [Symphony Orchestra], [the] Utah [Symphony Orchestra], and [the] San Francisco [Symphony Orchestra]. Her latest was Oakland Symphony Orchestra, where she has been principal string bass for twenty years. Earlier she was with Arthur Fiedler and the Boston Pops tour orchestra from Boston to Florida and to Canada. In Hollywood she played with Jascha Heifetz in the RCA Victor recording orchestra. Our son, Robert Allen [Lunden], is an electronic engineer. He started with North American [Rockwell International Corporation] at Downey, California, in the construction of the Navaho missile, one of the earliest. This was followed by testing the missile at Edwards Air Force Base and at Cape Canaveral in Florida. He then went to New Orleans working on the external tank of the space shuttle. He was then on the Skylab program in Kennedy Center, Florida. Then he went with Martin Marietta [Aerospace] in 1974 on the Titan I and Titan II in testing at Denver and at Vandenburg [Air Force Base], California. He is presently working on the redesign of the external tank for the future space shuttle for Martin Marietta in Huntsville, Alabama, having been with them since. He has a son, Christopher Allen, who has completed his technical electronics education. Our youngest daughter, Ardelle Leila Rorden, has two children: Sterling Allen [Rorden], who received his degree in mechanical engineering at Cal[ifornia] State University, Sacramento, and is now working as an engineer with one of the large corporations. Her daughter, Eileen Kathryn [Godwin], received her degree in journalism at Humboldt State University and is now with a newspaper in Sacramento. She is married to Robert Godwin, who has a degree in law from California State in Sacramento. Leila and I have a summer cottage on Follins Pond in South Dennis, Massachusetts, where we have a small canopy boat with a fifty-horsepower outboard for pleasure cruising down the Bass River to Nantucket Sound and for trolling for small blues and bottom fishing for perch, bass, and flatfish. Our cottage is on a beach front for swimming and sunning. I use a rowboat for exercise by rowing across the Follins Pond, which in California would be called a lake. We enjoy summer theater at the Dennis Playhouse. Our other joint activity or hobby has been to cruise to Europe, Mexico, South America, the Pacific Islands, and Australia, which we have done off and on since our 1925 honeymoon trip to Europe. In our Rancho Palos Verdes community, Leila has been active in youth work and was recognized for five-year service with the Red Cross, and has been active in church work at the Rolling Hills Methodist Church, having served five years as a member of the church board. She is an expert swimmer and works out twice a week in the San Pedro YMCA [Young Men's Christian Association] Olympic-size pool in the winter and in Follins Pond on Cape Cod in the summer.

VALENTINE: Let's go back and look at your professional career as an architect. I'd like you to evaluate some of your experiences. You worked for a time on your own and then with several partners on and off.

LUNDEN: Yes.

VALENTINE: I would like to discuss the advantages of each kind of operation.

LUNDEN: All right. That's basic. In thinking about the discussion of the architect and what his options are in practicing, I was confronted with the problem of the women who are now in the architectural field, and that I would have a problem each time of saying "his" or "her." The solution of this was to simply talk in the plural and say "they" or "their." So I hope to be able to stay with that in this discussion. When the architects decide to open their offices, they have a number of options to consider. Probably the most basic is whether they will plan to engage practicing engineering firms as consultants as needed, such as the mechanical, electrical, civil, foundations, structural, and other engineers as required for each project, and hold them responsible for their part of their work, or [whether they will] build some of these engineer types into their own organization. Having worked with other architects of both types before I opened my own office, I determined to engage independent practicing engineers as needed for each project. This allowed me to select the best in the field and select the size and type of engineering firm to match my needs on each project. All engineers were required to carry their own E and O insurance, although my E and O was inclusive.

VALENTINE: What's E and O?

LUNDEN: Errors and omissions insurance, which everyone must carry these days. The next option might be whether the architects' practice would be as sole proprietor or as a partnership. Generally one might start as a sole proprietor and build into a partnership within their own forces or by joining with another practicing architect, depending on their needs. And if you wish to expand into other fields, such as medical, for example, a partnership might be desirable. I started as sole proprietor and brought members of my own staff in as partners. When the Depression hit, I found it necessary to go back to a sole proprietorship. Later I brought in a practicing architect as a partner. Another option is to form a joint venture for specific projects. On major projects, particularly government, you may be requested to joint-venture with a firm selected by them, or you may find it desirable to do so in order to have a better chance to be awarded the project, whether for government or in private practice. I've had a number of joint ventures, mostly with firms I have selected. It has been an important part of my practice. Remember, if you form the joint-venture, you have the edge in proposing the share of each. Mine have varied from a 25-percent to a 75- percent interest. After years of practice you may be called to serve as consulting architect on a project where the owner wishes to add your expertise to that of the appointed architect. I served as consulting architect on the Allan Hancock Biological Research [Foundation] Building at USC and on the Veterans [Administration] Hospital in Phoenix. Since terminating my active practice, I was asked to serve as consultant by an architect [Ralph Flewelling, Jr.] for a major addition to the [Edward L.] Doheny [Memorial] Library at USC. I've also served as a consultant to USC on preliminary master planning of projects, on an analysis of a building to be purchased, on analysis of a design-build construction proposal, and as consultant to commercial clients.

VALENTINE: Which of these options do you prefer?

LUNDEN: I really have no preference. Because of the way your practice develops, I have found it necessary to follow the trends of building. There are cycles when the emphasis is on government housing, for example. Then there was the urban renewal type of project. Then the private endeavors. The type of work you get rather dictates what type you prefer, dictates what type you will do. However, starting practice, if I had my choice I would have a partnership with one person, for the reason, as I have stated, that that gives me an opportunity to do community work with confidence that my partner will carry on with the office.

VALENTINE: What other advice do you have for young architects who are starting out?

LUNDEN: Your question, as I understand it, and it's quite clear, is what advice would I give to young professionals. [Added] to the above discussion of the practical elements of practice, I would like to touch on the architect's philosophy. Basically it is how do we best serve our clients. My philosophy is that it should be personal service, and I emphasize personal service, by the architect or of one of his full partners. If you have a partnership and it becomes quite active, it generally develops that each partner has his own client in a sense. He's responsible for bringing the client into the picture, knows that client, so he should carry through with that client, all the way through. The architect is like a moving picture director. He is head of a group of specialists, an administrator, chief designer, production chief, specification writer, public relations, project construction engineer, and all of his specialty engineers and consultants. The architect is responsible to his client for the high quality of the work produced by each. His personal relationship to his client must be continuous from the time the contract is signed until the client takes the finished project and at least one year thereafter. The test of this policy, in my mind, is that I started serving USC in 1930. And as of 1987, after fifty-seven years of service, I am still involved as a consultant. I have served under five presidents at USC. This is due, I believe, to the fact that I've served them personally and satisfactorily. I started serving my first client, the R. A. Rowan Company, as well as their clients at Fifth [Street] and Spring [Street], in 1928. I continued to serve them when they moved to Pasadena a few years ago and had us design their Pasadena offices. I served them till 1985, some fifty-seven years. Out of sixty years of practice as an architect, it is a great satisfaction to have had many repeat clients and be able to serve some over a half a century, I'd like to close with this statement. A good motto for the architect is "Personal service to the client. "

VALENTINE: Thank you very much. I really enjoyed these conversations.

LUNDEN: I have enjoyed very much working with you.

A TEI Project

Interview of Samuel Lunden

Contents

1. Transcript

1.1. TAPE NUMBER: I, SIDE ONE
APRIL 20, 1987

1.2. TAPE NUMBER: I, SIDE TWO
APRIL 20, 1987

1.3. TAPE NUMBER: II, SIDE ONE
APRIL 27, 1987

1.4. TAPE NUMBER: II, SIDE TWO
APRIL 27, 1987

1.5. TAPE NUMBER: III, SIDE ONE
MAY 4, 1987

1.6. TAPE NUMBER: III, SIDE TWO
MAY 4, 1987

1.7. TAPE NUMBER: IV, SIDE ONE
JUNE 8, 1987

1.8. TAPE NUMBER: IV, SIDE TWO
JUNE 8, 1987

1.9. TAPE NUMBER: V, SIDE ONE
JUNE 8, 1987

1.10. TAPE NUMBER: V, SIDE TWO
JUNE 11, 1987

1.11. TAPE NUMBER: VI, SIDE ONE
JUNE 11, 1987

1.12. TAPE NUMBER: VI, SIDE TWO
JUNE 15, 1987

A TEI Project

Interview of Samuel Lunden

Contents

1. Transcript

1.1. TAPE NUMBER: I, SIDE ONE APRIL 20, 1987

1.2. TAPE NUMBER: I, SIDE TWO APRIL 20, 1987

1.3. TAPE NUMBER: II, SIDE ONE APRIL 27, 1987

1.4. TAPE NUMBER: II, SIDE TWO APRIL 27, 1987

1.5. TAPE NUMBER: III, SIDE ONE MAY 4, 1987

1.6. TAPE NUMBER: III, SIDE TWO MAY 4, 1987

1.7. TAPE NUMBER: IV, SIDE ONE JUNE 8, 1987

1.8. TAPE NUMBER: IV, SIDE TWO JUNE 8, 1987

1.9. TAPE NUMBER: V, SIDE ONE JUNE 8, 1987

1.10. TAPE NUMBER: V, SIDE TWO JUNE 11, 1987

1.11. TAPE NUMBER: VI, SIDE ONE JUNE 11, 1987

1.12. TAPE NUMBER: VI, SIDE TWO JUNE 15, 1987

1.1. TAPE NUMBER: I, SIDE ONE
APRIL 20, 1987

1.2. TAPE NUMBER: I, SIDE TWO
APRIL 20, 1987

1.3. TAPE NUMBER: II, SIDE ONE
APRIL 27, 1987

1.4. TAPE NUMBER: II, SIDE TWO
APRIL 27, 1987

1.5. TAPE NUMBER: III, SIDE ONE
MAY 4, 1987

1.6. TAPE NUMBER: III, SIDE TWO
MAY 4, 1987

1.7. TAPE NUMBER: IV, SIDE ONE
JUNE 8, 1987

1.8. TAPE NUMBER: IV, SIDE TWO
JUNE 8, 1987

1.9. TAPE NUMBER: V, SIDE ONE
JUNE 8, 1987

1.10. TAPE NUMBER: V, SIDE TWO
JUNE 11, 1987

1.11. TAPE NUMBER: VI, SIDE ONE
JUNE 11, 1987

1.12. TAPE NUMBER: VI, SIDE TWO
JUNE 15, 1987